No more Chi Sau Demostrations

[Yoshiyahu]

With the Gary Lam debacle I suggest the Wing Chun world change their platform.

Instead of having all of these televised or youtubed seminars and conventions. Why not host Sparring competitions.

Set the rule set so throws are allowed. Kicks, Punches, palms strikes and other WC techniques that do not maim or severly injure your opponent.

Allow all skill sets to participate and all styles and martial arts systems to participate.


Then WC can learn and show how to apply their technique against different opponents of different schools of fighting.

Make a three knock down rule...if you hit the ground three times you loose.

If We chi sau no one really wins. But if we spar an the other person totally dominates you and throws you to ground an there is nothing you can do to stop it than you know he is skilled. If we slug it out who is really the victor. If he can hit you at will but jam your attacks and redirect your energy and turn it back on you while adding his own punches to your face or kicks to thighs and shins what can you do?

Most people wont admit they were defeated...But if they always find themselves on the floor and your still standing attacking them what can say then!!!

If people are allowed to spar freely an allowed to do their style with in the confines of tournments rule set then WC can be proven to be a viable martial art!!!

If you dont fight with your art what are you doing!!!

[Chadderz]

YES! YES A MILLION TIMES! I want to see them get of there butts and actually try and improve there art to become something that is practised for competition! Only then will it be better for the art xD

[mjw]

Just have more Wing Chun fighters do sanda & kuoshu lei tai etc etc. lets not try to reinvent the wheel just fight fight fight done & done.

[k gledhill]

To us chi-sao has never been a competition ;)

[YouKnowWho]

If Taiji push hand is "diaper" for Taiji guys, what is chi-sao for WC guys? Both single chi-sao and double chi-sao are pre-defined patterns. If both you and your opponent just follow that pre-defined pattern, there won't be any "competation". Someone at some point of time tried to be a smart ass and changed that pattern, the chi-sao then turned into competation.

[k gledhill]

If Taiji push hand is "diaper" for Taiji guys, what is chi-sao for WC guys? Both single chi-sao and double chi-sao are pre-defined patterns. If both you and your opponent just follow that pre-defined pattern, there won't be any "competation". Someone at some point of time tried to be a smart ass and changed that pattern, the chi-sao then turned into competation.

mmm, losing face to a guy was probably the cause...:D some guys just cant deal with being hit , or looking like they are 'equals' , mere mortals ;) Belts , gradings and egos & greed are all to blame.

[Phil Redmond]

Anyone can get hit by anyone in chi sau. So it doesn't mean you can fight if you can hit someone during a drill. There are people who never heard of chi sau and can kick the crap out of a good chi sau player. We have a venue in NYC for full contact fights. With all the WC schools in NYC who say they have the real deal why aren't they competing? I give the Moy Yat guys who drive all the way from Philly to fight big props. I'll always believe that if you ain't testing what you do then you're not training to be a "martial" artist.

[Vajramusti]

With the Gary Lam debacle I suggest the Wing Chun world change their platform.

Instead of having all of these televised or youtubed seminars and conventions. Why not host Sparring competitions.

Set the rule set so throws are allowed. Kicks, Punches, palms strikes and other WC techniques that do not maim or severly injure your opponent.

Allow all skill sets to participate and all styles and martial arts systems to participate.


Then WC can learn and show how to apply their technique against different opponents of different schools of fighting.

Make a three knock down rule...if you hit the ground three times you loose.

If We chi sau no one really wins. But if we spar an the other person totally dominates you and throws you to ground an there is nothing you can do to stop it than you know he is skilled. If we slug it out who is really the victor. If he can hit you at will but jam your attacks and redirect your energy and turn it back on you while adding his own punches to your face or kicks to thighs and shins what can you do?

Most people wont admit they were defeated...But if they always find themselves on the floor and your still standing attacking them what can say then!!!

If people are allowed to spar freely an allowed to do their style with in the confines of tournments rule set then WC can be proven to be a viable martial art!!!

If you dont fight with your art what are you doing!!!
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First- one has to learn the art!!

[YouKnowWho]

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First- one has to learn the art!!

Everybody will need to go to elementary school. Soon or later, you have to gradulate and move on to high school and beyond. You just can't stay in elementary school all your life and refuse to gradulate.

If Chi-Sau is the elementary school material (someone may say it's high school material), what's the high school, college, or gradulate school material?

[Vajramusti]

Everybody will need to go to elementary school. Soon or later, you have to gradulate and move on to high school and beyond. You just can't stay in elementary school all your life and refuse to gradulate.

If Chi-Sau is the elementary school material (someone may say it's high school material), what's the high school, college, or gradulate school material?
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If one is enrolled in or audited the wrong course it wont matter. there are many levels of chi sao.
One can mix things looking for a common denominator= but truth in labeling suggests it not be called "wing chun". Again and again-- there are many ways to fight or defend or practice kung fu-
but evan Confucius in learning called for rectification of names.

[Hendrik]

everybody will need to go to elementary school. Soon or later, you have to gradulate and move on to high school and beyond. You just can't stay in elementary school all your life and refuse to gradulate.

If chi-sau is the elementary school material (someone may say it's high school material), what's the high school, college, or gradulate school material?


This is the material.

彬彬克敌，分寸之中。 用中无形，体用一焉。

[YouKnowWho]

This is the material.

彬彬克敌，分寸之中。 用中无形，体用一焉。

Even the PhD program won't be this "abstract". Could you map into more concrete example so we can all understand what you are trying to say.

Here is the different training program for the Combat SC system.

grade school - how to throw (offense).
high school - how to counter a throw (defense).
college - how to use one throw to set up another throw (counter your opponent's counter).
graduate school - how to integrate kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game (integration).

What will be the WC equivalent training program for different school levels in your opinion?

[Hendrik]

Even the PhD program won't be this "abstract". Could you map into more concrete example so we can all understand what you are trying to say.

Here is the different training program for the Combat SC system.

grade school - how to throw (offense).
high school - how to counter a throw (defense).
college - how to use one throw to set up another throw (counter your opponent's counter).
graduate school - how to integrate kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game (integration).

What will be the WC equivalent training program for different school levels in your opinion?


nope, it is not abstract at all. in fact it is very clearly put.

the kung fu has to be at that level according to the WC ancestor, otherwise it is not that useful. Only at that level it is mastery.

[YouKnowWho]

nope, it is not abstract at all. in fact it is very clearly put.

the kung fu has to be at that level according to the WC ancestor, otherwise it is not that useful. Only at that level it is mastery.
You still have not answered my question yet.

grade school - ?
high school - ?
college - ?
graduate school - ?

You just don't expect anybody to get his PhD degree on day one do you?

[Hendrik]

You still have not answered my question yet.

grade school - ?
high school - ?
college - ?
graduate school - ?

You just don't expect anybody to get his PhD degree on day one do you?

I leave it to those who are doing WCK.

[YouKnowWho]

I leave it to those who are doing WCK.

If you don't want to express your opinion, I don't know what kind of valid discussion that we can have here. :confused:

"知无不言言无不尽(Zhi Wu Bu Yan Yan Wu Bu Jin) - If you know it, say it, If you say it, don't hold back".

[imperialtaichi]

Anyone can get hit by anyone in chi sau. So it doesn't mean you can fight if you can hit someone during a drill. There are people who never heard of chi sau and can kick the crap out of a good chi sau player. We have a venue in NYC for full contact fights. With all the WC schools in NYC who say they have the real deal why aren't they competing? I give the Moy Yat guys who drive all the way from Philly to fight. I'll always believe that if you ain't testing what you do then you're not training to be a "martial" artist.

I wish there is a "like" button somewhere...

[Phil Redmond]

I wish there is a "like" button somewhere...
Oops, I meant to type: "I give the Moy Yat guys who drive all the way from Philly to fight big props". . . :)

[Hendrik]

If you don't want to express your opinion, I don't know what kind of valid discussion that we can have here. :confused:

"知无不言言无不尽(Zhi Wu Bu Yan Yan Wu Bu Jin) - If you know it, say it, If you say it, don't hold back".


similar to I have no idea how you do advance SC disregard how you explain it to me. only those who does advance WCK know what it is.

[anerlich]

Just have more Wing Chun fighters do sanda & kuoshu lei tai etc etc. lets not try to reinvent the wheel just fight fight fight done & done.

This. Some people are using WC to fight in various formats with success, including Alan Orr's and Rick Spain's schools. Too many want someone else to pick up the gauntlet but don't have the cojones to do it themselves.

TCMA styles don't fight. SOME TCMA schools and practitioners do.

BTW, the Gary Lam situation wasn't a "debacle", it was a "non-event".

[Yoshiyahu]

thanks for your post!!!


This. Some people are using WC to fight in various formats with success, including Alan Orr's and Rick Spain's schools. Too many want someone else to pick up the gauntlet but don't have the cojones to do it themselves.

TCMA styles don't fight. SOME TCMA schools and practitioners do.

BTW, the Gary Lam situation wasn't a "debacle", it was a "non-event".