Connect and disconnect body frame

[YouKnowWho]

In TCMA, to connect our body frame as one unit, transfer energy from our foot all the way to our finger tips is very important. To "disconnect body frame" at the right moment is also very important.

Here is an example to disconnect your frame to dodge flying objets.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/wp-content-uploads-2008-11-neo.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/12/ibm-files-matrix-style-bullet-dodging-patent/&h=228&w=355&sz=65&tbnid=xcM9Bi9-zQ4btM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=140&zoom=1&docid=BHh7r-kPAfSWLM&sa=X&ei=vQPETvjMBuquiALpoZzwCw&ved=0CC0Q9QEwAQ&dur=84

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FQEPWkDJyY

When your opponent tries to throw you, if you can collapse your body frame like spaghetti, he will not be able to throw you.

When you sweep your opponent's leg, you want to disconnect your upper body and lower body. You only use your lower body to sweep. This way, if your opponent escapes out of your sweep, your sweep won't affect your own balance.

Could you share your idea about "connect body frame" in your system? Can you come up other usages for "disconnect body frame"?

[sanjuro_ronin]

RE: Body COnnect
This is not just for TCMA, pretty much any MA and any physical endevour that is learned is taught using the whole body connected.
Look at running and the running related events, or swimming, pretty much any sport really.

As for disconnect, fine motor skills and isolate body skills have always had their place, you just have to know when to do one and not the other.

[TenTigers]

even when you "disconnect" body frame, you need to have some connection.
Otherwise, you will weaken the structure. Example would be twisting and avoiding the strike, but being able to strike at the same time. The strike must have proper connection and alignment. Tai Gik Kuen, Joi Bot Sien, and many Hakka Kuen does this.

[Robinhood]

In TCMA, to connect our body frame as one unit, transfer energy from our foot all the way to our finger tips is very important. To "disconnect body frame" at the right moment is also very important.

Here is an example to disconnect your frame to dodge flying objets.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/wp-content-uploads-2008-11-neo.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/12/ibm-files-matrix-style-bullet-dodging-patent/&h=228&w=355&sz=65&tbnid=xcM9Bi9-zQ4btM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=140&zoom=1&docid=BHh7r-kPAfSWLM&sa=X&ei=vQPETvjMBuquiALpoZzwCw&ved=0CC0Q9QEwAQ&dur=84

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FQEPWkDJyY

When your opponent tries to throw you, if you can collapse your body frame like spaghetti, he will not be able to throw you.

When you sweep your opponent's leg, you want to disconnect your upper body and lower body. You only use your lower body to sweep. This way, if your opponent escapes out of your sweep, your sweep won't affect your own balance.

Could you share your idea about "connect body frame" in your system? Can you come up other usages for "disconnect body frame"?


Body frame is body level, what happens if you keep shrinking that frame down?

[YouKnowWho]

Body frame is body level, what happens if you keep shrinking that frame down?

Not sure I understand your concern here. :confused: What's your definition of "body level"?

Here is an example that "shrinking your frame" can be used in "defense".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-tAVs7MKyY

[Robinhood]

Not sure I understand your concern here. :confused: What's your definition of "body level"?

Here is an example that "shrinking your frame" can be used in "defense".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-tAVs7MKyY

I am referring to offense, your video would be called disappearing.

Body level is when you are using one big frame.

[YouKnowWho]

I am referring to offense, your video would be called disappearing.

Body level is when you are using one big frame.

The wihite ape system "猴闪(Hou Shan) - monkey dodge" is one that you attack when you "shrink your frame down". When your oppponent punches at you, you deflect his punch from underneath, you squeeze your body into a small ball, spin your body, and strike the other elbow on his chest, while you get under his punching arm, and move behind him.

[Robinhood]

The wihite ape system "猴闪(Hou Shan) - monkey dodge" is one that you attack when you "shrink your frame down". When your oppponent punches at you, you deflect his punch from underneath, you squeeze your body into a small ball, spin your body, and strike the other elbow on his chest, while you get under his punching arm, and move behind him.


No, not ape moves.

If you shrink the structure, you should be able to create more structures within the original structure, kind of like one splits into two, two into four, four into eight and so on, their is no limit.

[YouKnowWho]

No, not ape moves.

If you shrink the structure, you should be able to create more structures within the original structure, kind of like one splits into two, two into four, four into eight and so on, their is no limit.

A bit too abstract for me. :p

[taai gihk yahn]

A bit too abstract for me. :p

You clearly do not understand the tr3u internalz...

[Eric Olson]

When your opponent tries to throw you, if you can collapse your body frame like spaghetti, he will not be able to throw you.


I remember someone, I think Scott R. Brown, calling me a fool when I said it was impossible to throw someone who doesn't have some forward momentum.

EO

[Eric Olson]

In TCMA, to connect our body frame as one unit, transfer energy from our foot all the way to our finger tips is very important. To "disconnect body frame" at the right moment is also very important.



Or how bout hiding your frame so that your opponent can find it? This is the essence of Taiji.

EO

[sanjuro_ronin]

I remember someone, I think Scott R. Brown, calling me a fool when I said it was impossible to throw someone who doesn't have some forward momentum.

EO

Well, you can throw him backwards is his momentum is going backwards ;)
What John means about the "collapsing frame" is to "fall" before you get thrown.
Basically apply "dead weight" at the correct time, Mifune was reknown for that.

[CFT]

What John means about the "collapsing frame" is to "fall" before you get thrown.
Basically apply "dead weight" at the correct time, Mifune was reknown for that.Like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFXbuszijCM

[sanjuro_ronin]

Like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFXbuszijCM

Well, they were going easy on the old man, but yes, pretty much that.

[EarthDragon]

when about to be trown, when you adhere ... to yourt thrower, it is nearly impossible to become disattached if you are sticking, this goes along the same line and principles as collasping

[YouKnowWho]

Or how bout hiding your frame so that your opponent can't find it? This is the essence of Taiji.

EO

If your opponent

- pushes you, you can yield, spin, and still hide your frame.
- pulls you, it's impossible to hide your frame. You only have 2 choices, resist against him, or follow him. In either case, your frame cannot be hidden.

The essence of Taiji just won't work well under a simple "pulling". :(

[Eric Olson]

If your opponent

- pushes you, you can yield, spin, and still hide your frame.
- pulls you, it's impossible to hide your frame. You only have 2 choices, resist against him, or follow him. In either case, your frame cannot be hidden.

The essence of Taiji just won't work well under a simple "pulling". :(

Why can't you follow and still hide your frame?

EO

[Eric Olson]

Well, you can throw him backwards is his momentum is going backwards ;)
What John means about the "collapsing frame" is to "fall" before you get thrown.
Basically apply "dead weight" at the correct time, Mifune was reknown for that.

Yeah, that's basically what I said in a previous thread.

EO

[RWilson]

In TCMA, to connect our body frame as one unit, transfer energy from our foot all the way to our finger tips is very important. To "disconnect body frame" at the right moment is also very important.

Here is an example to disconnect your frame to dodge flying objets.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/wp-content-uploads-2008-11-neo.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/12/ibm-files-matrix-style-bullet-dodging-patent/&h=228&w=355&sz=65&tbnid=xcM9Bi9-zQ4btM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=140&zoom=1&docid=BHh7r-kPAfSWLM&sa=X&ei=vQPETvjMBuquiALpoZzwCw&ved=0CC0Q9QEwAQ&dur=84

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FQEPWkDJyY

When your opponent tries to throw you, if you can collapse your body frame like spaghetti, he will not be able to throw you.

When you sweep your opponent's leg, you want to disconnect your upper body and lower body. You only use your lower body to sweep. This way, if your opponent escapes out of your sweep, your sweep won't affect your own balance.

Could you share your idea about "connect body frame" in your system? Can you come up other usages for "disconnect body frame"?


No offense but you have been living in hippy philosophical land for too long. These "tcma" principles you keep writing about are the gold standard for all combat styles. Tcma talk about principles too much and do not train them enough. That is orbs my why they are so well written by the Chinese because they were writing and not actually training at certain points in the history. I get it. You think his is advanced shiet but it is really just mental masturbation.

To be a good wrestler you need to be strong for your body weight(actually to be good at any martial art this is true). If you are strong relative to your body weight you will be able to better do all the things you are talking about. Talking/thinking about principles is not as effective as actually doing them.

[Indrafist]

No offense but you have been living in hippy philosophical land for too long. These "tcma" principles you keep writing about are the gold standard for all combat styles. Tcma talk about principles too much and do not train them enough. That is orbs my why they are so well written by the Chinese because they were writing and not actually training at certain points in the history. I get it. You think his is advanced shiet but it is really just mental masturbation.

To be a good wrestler you need to be strong for your body weight(actually to be good at any martial art this is true). If you are strong relative to your body weight you will be able to better do all the things you are talking about. Talking/thinking about principles is not as effective as actually doing them.

And even then the 'doing' of them needs to relevant and not just theory-laden. There's plenty of examples of 'applied' principles in TCMA that are only applied compliantly, within set exchanges of structure. So, the said principles then become over-valued ideas. MMA has been a reverse-engineered process of distilling principles back from over-valued ideas and theory-laden philosophies - and what you have left is a tested chassis. It's not the only way to do this, any truly 'real' RBSD approach will acheive this, with albeit a different emphasis. But it's also true that individual TCMA practitioners are free to develop what they have as 'abstraction' on towards either a combat sports or RBSD application. It's been said on this forum dozens of times, it's down to individuals, always has been always will be.

[YouKnowWho]

Why can't you follow and still hide your frame?

EO

Someone asked the same question on another forum. Let me just cut and paste it here.

Q:

If your opponent pulls, your center must be faster to get in front of the pull,

A:

Unfortunately sometime your opponent can borrow your force and lead you into the emptiness.

- I pull.
- You borrow my pull and push,
- I borrow your push and pull harder,
- You borrow my pull and push harder,
- I ...

It depends on who has better Tinjin. The advantage that I have is I can spin but you can't.

Q:

or I can blow directly into your center when you try to spin me,

A:

Not sure how you will be able to do that in the following situation. Please notice that your opponent is behind you. In order for you to move into his center, you have to turn around first. When you try to turn around, your opponent can borrow your turning and then lead you into the "emptiness".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swiMIO62cgQ

Q:

a simple step with the led leg towards you before you turn the corner, ...

A:

You have just given your opponent your leading leg that he is waiting for. ;) Whoever starts the "pull" will always be one step ahead of his opponent (if he knows what he is doing). The reason is simple. He knows what he will do next but you don't. You are playing his game and not yours.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGR9LtfR5cs

[Robinhood]

No offense but you have been living in hippy philosophical land for too long. These "tcma" principles you keep writing about are the gold standard for all combat styles. Tcma talk about principles too much and do not train them enough. That is orbs my why they are so well written by the Chinese because they were writing and not actually training at certain points in the history. I get it. You think his is advanced shiet but it is really just mental masturbation.

To be a good wrestler you need to be strong for your body weight(actually to be good at any martial art this is true). If you are strong relative to your body weight you will be able to better do all the things you are talking about. Talking/thinking about principles is not as effective as actually doing them.

You need strength to strike, not to counter. The more skill you have the less strength you need to counter your opponent.

But for wrestling body weight and strength are probably more of a factor, that's why a little guy should not wrestle a big guy.

A high level MA does not use hardly any strength to protect ones self, look at that judo guy, was he using strength ?
If you don't have skill you will compensate for that by using strength to try to force a movement that only only works because you are stronger than your opponent, that is just stronger over powering the weaker, and is not really a MA.

[YouKnowWho]

No offense but you have been living in hippy philosophical land for too long.

I may be the last person on earth who lives in the hippy philosophical land. :p

[Robinhood]

If your opponent

- pushes you, you can yield, spin, and still hide your frame.
- pulls you, it's impossible to hide your frame. You only have 2 choices, resist against him, or follow him. In either case, your frame cannot be hidden.

The essence of Taiji just won't work well under a simple "pulling". :(

There are more choices, if that is all you think can be done, you have to find some more guys to play with.

Also you don't need to hide your frame, and still not let you use it, unless you are doing body level, then you will need to hide it.

[RWilson]

You need strength to strike, not to counter. The more skill you have the less strength you need to counter your opponent.

But for wrestling body weight and strength are probably more of a factor, that's why a little guy should not wrestle a big guy.

A high level MA does not use hardly any strength to protect ones self, look at that judo guy, was he using strength ?
If you don't have skill you will compensate for that by using strength to try to force a movement that only only works because you are stronger than your opponent, that is just stronger over powering the weaker, and is not really a MA.

That judo guy is probably strong as hell. You cannot have the strength of a monk that reads and prays all day. You need real strength and power combined with your skill. Power overcomes skill. Power AND skill are unstoppable.

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTumjmL-76c

[Robinhood]

That judo guy is probably strong as hell. You cannot have the strength of a monk that reads and prays all day. You need real strength and power combined with your skill. Power overcomes skill. Power AND skill are unstoppable.

I was talking about the little old man that was half the size of the guys he was playing with, I don't think he was using strength, at least not in the video I saw.

I think the saying is " skill over comes power", maybe your definition of skill is different from mine.

Maybe we need a thread on the definition of skill.

[YouKnowWho]

There are more choices, if that is all you think can be done, you have to find some more guys to play with.

You may have more than 2 choices if your opponent uses "circular" pull. If your opponent uses "linear" pull, what will be your 3rd choice?

[Robinhood]

You may have more than 2 choices if your opponent uses "circular" pull. If your opponent uses "linear" pull, what will be your 3rd choice?

Your still talking about applying your movements at body level, if you move past the body level there are infinite choices.

Also if you are applying at body level, strength does make a big difference.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Why don't some of you Chi-licious F**uck Wagons post some totally rad vids of you doing this sh**it instead of arguing like a couple of fat girls over a cup cake!!:D

(John Wang excluded:p)

[Dragonzbane76]

I think the saying is " skill over comes power", maybe your definition of skill is different from mine.

that is the saying, and i agree with it.

I've rolled with guys 50lbs. lighter than me and they have skills that trump mine. I can use power to get outta certain things but eventually i get caught. Skill does negate power to a certain extent. we have a student whose about 265, and it's not fat, all muscle. He's never really rolled until our class. I weight about 225, I'm giving a lot of weight when I roll with him. I have skill and usually can outlast him with defense and waiting for the right moment. that's not saying that rolling like that for an extended time with his weight on top doesn't affect me. It's like having a car sit on you for a period of time. Eventually the mechanics of gravity start wearing on you and you get tired. It's natural, but overall skills in the initial onset of the round work much better than shear brawn.

[YouKnowWho]

Your still talking about applying your movements at body level, if you move past the body level there are infinite choices.

Also if you are applying at body level, strength does make a big difference.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. :confused:

[taai gihk yahn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTumjmL-76c

thank God I started to do Pilates, driving was becoming a nightmare!

[EarthDragon]

PERHAPS this is case that Rwilson and some of the others dont underrstand the depth of Johns knowledge.

[Robinhood]

Why don't some of you Chi-licious F**uck Wagons post some totally rad vids of you doing this sh**it instead of arguing like a couple of fat girls over a cup cake!!:D

(John Wang excluded:p)

The problem with videos is that they only show outside movement, unless you can recognize the signs of inside changes, you won't see anything, and if you do see something that is the result of inside movement you will try say it is some outside strength or trick or fake.


There are videos that are genuine and a lot more not genuine, it is really only acknowledged when someone demonstrates it on you, a video will not convey what is really going on.

[Robinhood]

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. :confused:

Its not something you can put in words if you can't relate to the experience, some people can do it and don't even really know what they are actually doing at the inside level.

[Robinhood]

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. :confused:

How about having multiple structures within the main structure, able to operate independently of each other !

Does this make more sense?

[YouKnowWho]

How about having multiple structures within the main structure, able to operate independently of each other !

Does this make more sense?

Sound interest. What's the usage in combat? Please give an example.

[bawang]

yo dawg, i put a structure inside your structure so you can structure while you structure

[Punch.HeadButt]

Structception!

[YouKnowWho]

yo dawg, i put a structure inside your structure so you can structure while you structure

Did you just quoted Shakespeare's famous saying?

[Robinhood]

Sound interest. What's the usage in combat? Please give an example.

One usage in combat is, I am connected to you , but you are not connected to me.

[taai gihk yahn]

One usage in combat is, I am connected to you , but you are not connected to me.


There are videos that are genuine.

it would be wonderful to see a video that u consider to b genuine that u feel illustrates this in application against a resisting opponent

[taai gihk yahn]

Did you just quoted Shakespeare's famous saying?

what he meant to say is, "What's Hecuba to he, or he to Hecuba?"

[taai gihk yahn]

PERHAPS this is case that Rwilson and some of the others dont underrstand the depth of Johns knowledge.

poor John - I srsly feel for the man: he is like constantly getting pooped on from every direction: he's not "internal" enuf for the "qi-heads" and he's not "practical" enuf for the "MMA-heads"; I only hope the man appreciates the absurdity of it all and takes it w a grain of salt...

[Lucas]

I hope he spends a lot of time laughing about the sillyness of it all.

[taai gihk yahn]

I hope he spends a lot of time laughing about the sillyness of it all.

I suspect he takes it all w great equanimity...

[Lucas]

he would have to, to be able to continue interacting with all the crazies.

[bawang]

One usage in combat is, I am connected to you , but you are not connected to me.

anal rape is not combat. one is already the victor.

[YouKnowWho]

anal rape is not combat. one is already the victor.

With our bawang around, life will always be full of joy. :D

[Robinhood]

it would be wonderful to see a video that u consider to b genuine that u feel illustrates this in application against a resisting opponent

I am not much of a YouTube watcher, but I have seen some of Sam Chin's stuff, it looks like he does some different types of internal application.

[Dragonzbane76]

being an mma guy I appreciate YKW's points of view. I have a traditional background but take a modern edge to things. And I agree he does get sh!t on a bit here but he takes it in stride. when he says something I usually listen and try to picture what he is doing in my terms, and not blow him off as some idiotic blow hard from the left wing of traditional alley.

[taai gihk yahn]

I am not much of a YouTube watcher, but I have seen some of Sam Chin's stuff, it looks like he does some different types of internal application.

I would agree that Sifu Chin demonstrates full body connection and is functioning out of a so-called "internal" paradigm; at least, that was my personal experience having touched hands with him and several of his senior students;

[taai gihk yahn]

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62438

[TenTigers]

I thought that was the cardboard box that Calvin and Hobbes use to travel back in time....

[taai gihk yahn]

I thought that was the cardboard box that Calvin and Hobbes use to travel back in time....

you mean the Transmogrifier?
http://garbas.github.com/migrations-with-transmogrifier/images/img1.gif

[sanjuro_ronin]

poor John - I srsly feel for the man: he is like constantly getting pooped on from every direction: he's not "internal" enuf for the "qi-heads" and he's not "practical" enuf for the "MMA-heads"; I only hope the man appreciates the absurdity of it all and takes it w a grain of salt...

There are few people that I would go out of my way to train with and John IS ONE of them.

[taai gihk yahn]

There are few people that I would go out of my way to train with and John IS ONE of them.

I guess u hav series Scott Brown envy then...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I guess u hav series Scott Brown envy then...

I don't know what you mean and I don't think I want to :(

[uki]

be like water. ;)

[Yum Cha]

There are few people that I would go out of my way to train with and John IS ONE of them.

Oh yea, I hear that.

[taai gihk yahn]

I don't know what you mean and I don't think I want to :(

he has met up w John to train SC of late, and will continue to do so in the spring when John comes back to CA; I wouldn't have said anything, but John "outed" him on another thread;

[sanjuro_ronin]

he has met up w John to train SC of late, and will continue to do so in the spring when John comes back to CA; I wouldn't have said anything, but John "outed" him on another thread;

I always knew he was a closet grappler !