Does the "Iron Shirt" or the "Iron Fist" training and technique work?

[Ippo Makunouchi]

If it does how do you train it?:)

[donjitsu2]

The only iron skill worth learning is Iron Crotch - the ladies love it. ;)

[Lucas]

short answer is yes it does, and you train via proper instruction.

you might find some good info in these threads. a bit of sifting will be needed. there are several posters here who are very familiar with iron methods. of immediate note to my memory; Mooyingmantis, Sanjuro Ronin, Dale Dugas are all iron palm and or body practitioners that know what they are talking about. im sure there are more, but i just cant recall who at the moment.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/search.php?searchid=3360627

[Dale Dugas]

It does work.

http://youtu.be/EfVhDHlsWCw

Mooyingmantis and Sanjuro Ronin can also chime in with their experiences as well.

Let me know how I can be of service to you.

[mooyingmantis]

It does work.

http://youtu.be/EfVhDHlsWCw

Mooyingmantis and Sanjuro Ronin can also chime in with their experiences as well.

As Dale said, yes it works.

Iron Palm
Just remember that iron palm is much more than just the ability to break blocks with your hands. Yes, I can do that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD2CJC82vWM Though it often gets the most press, block breaking is a minor, secondary effect that comes from iron palm training.

In my opinion, the true point of iron palm training is two-fold:
1. It toughens the hand to protect it against injury when striking.
2. It teaches you the physics of energy transference through an object.

Iron palm was designed to teach you how to strike the human body with concussive force that can injure the internal organs.

A qualified instructor is the best way to learn the skill. I also recommend the iron palm DVD from the Iron Lotus Society: http://www.theironlotussociety.com/Products.htm It is an excellent resource and is just like being there with them in class. Plus, they hold nothing back.

Iron Body
A very necessary skill in ancient times, a cool skill to learn in modern times. It toughens the body to endure a great deal of physical abuse.

[Oso]

in short: train harder then the guy you're trying to beat and you'll win. :D

not to take away from the esteemed individuals aforementioned...but, the bottom like is: train harder than the next guy.

[-N-]

I'm a little rusty on my iron shirt...

[David Jamieson]

lol...

yes, it works and it conditions the body.

slow repetitive striking hardens the skin and muscle tissue through density increase. Bone is hardened in a similar way except through a shock/crack/refill process.

[Dale Dugas]

Internal Iron Body uses lots of twisting exercises that help to strengthen and thicken the fascia of the body.

Advanced exercises are used to condition the tissues and the bones.

There is both Pai Da Gung which is basically beating the body to thicken tissues, and desensitize the body.

Then there is internal Iron Body which does not use hitting the body but focuses on training the fascia through twisting and moving the body through certain routes of motion.

Both will get you to the same destination but will be different in appearance.

[Mike Patterson]

There is also "Shi Swei Jing" which combines certain "intention based" preparation methods, warm up massages and direct utilizization of weighted increments to train deep layer connective tissue for cohesive strength. A beating sequence, specific to meridian structures in the body follows, usually done with an iron flail but on occasion in early stages with a bamboo flail when the practioner is not yet strong enough.

And yes, it works. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Asroj2x2CqU

[Dale Dugas]

Shifu Patterson has shared another method that trains internal and external using different methods but again there are many paths to the same destination.

I have a copper flail that I bought from my kung fu brother which was made of out of copper high power line.

Love my flail.

My wife hates it when I tap in the house....

[Hardwork108]

There is also "Shi Swei Jing" which combines certain "intention based" preparation methods, warm up massages and direct utilizization of weighted increments to train deep layer connective tissue for cohesive strength. A beating sequence, specific to meridian structures in the body follows, usually done with an iron flail but on occasion in early stages with a bamboo flail when the practioner is not yet strong enough.

And yes, it works. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Asroj2x2CqU


Sifu Patterson, is "cohesive strength" a reference to strength gained through internal body unity?

I am asking, because I am trying to find parallels or corelations to some of the Chow Gar methodologies I have trained. Your reference to "intension based" training also rings a lot of bells, also, as regards some of the methodologies which those who do not train the Internals seem not to comprehend.

[Mike Patterson]

Sifu Patterson, is "cohesive strength" a reference to strength gained through internal body unity?

I am asking, because I am trying to find parallels or corelations to some of the Chow Gar methodologies I have trained. Your reference to "intension based" training also rings a lot of bells, also, as regards some of the methodologies which those who do not train the Internals seem not to comprehend.

Well, I see you took out your "thank you for the video. it was interesting." comment while I was typing this, to which I was going to say; "Gawd! You haven't seen that before? It's ancient. That footage was shot in 1981!" :)

Anyways, that aside... I am referring to training deep connective layers through the discipline called "Shi Swei Jing" (Wash Marrow) as usually translated. CT runs through the entire body, in and around everything. The aspect of Shi Swei that uses incremental weight based training understands this. The more weight that is applied, the greater the "load" on the CT that runs from the privates up through the torso and beyond. Over time, this yields tremendous strength of this tissue.

The preparation work we do involves manifest intention in standing frames mostly with very slight actuation of movement, not yet real motion as would be perceived by the naked eye, but actuation of movement. This then engages these same deep layer connective tissues which is a skill we need to support large amounts of weight. It is not uncommon for practitioners like myself to routinely support 150 lbs. or more with this method.

But some people on this board do indeed get this. TGY comprehends this quite well in my humble opinion. He made an exceptional entry on the "key to internal" thread, page 9 near the bottom.

It's not mystical. It's practical. Just less common I reckon. :)

[Dale Dugas]

Thank you Shifu Patterson.

My own Iron Vest training uses many twisting exercises to incorporate the CT to thicken and strengthen.

You need to strengthen the CT.

You need to somehow progressively overload the CT to strengthen it.

[Mike Patterson]

Thank you Shifu Patterson.

My own Iron Vest training uses many twisting exercises to incorporate the CT to thicken and strengthen.

You need to strengthen the CT.

You need to somehow progressively overload the CT to strengthen it.

Right, Dale. Tax any system in the human body and it will respond by strengthening that same system, assuming it is healthy, oc.

Many old "kungs" are based on this simple truth. Body banging drills, conventional body mass strength trainings, etc.

The trick is in finding a way to tax the system in question without too much risk of permanent injury.

[Dale Dugas]

Right, Dale. Tax any system in the human body and it will respond by strengthening that same system, assuming it is healthy, oc.

Many old "kungs" are based on this simple truth. Body banging drills, conventional body mass strength trainings, etc.

The trick is in finding a way to tax the system in question without too much risk of permanent injury.


Very true, Shifu Patterson.

You have all these people who think the 72 Arts of Shaolin Book is real with all manner of training that would injure if not seriously damage your body.

Slow and steady wins the race.

[Hardwork108]

Well, I see you took out your "thank you for the video. it was interesting." comment while I was typing this, to which I was going to say; "Gawd! You haven't seen that before? It's ancient. That footage was shot in 1981!" :)

Anyways, that aside... I am referring to training deep connective layers through the discipline called "Shi Swei Jing" (Wash Marrow) as usually translated. CT runs through the entire body, in and around everything. The aspect of Shi Swei that uses incremental weight based training understands this. The more weight that is applied, the greater the "load" on the CT that runs from the privates up through the torso and beyond. Over time, this yields tremendous strength of this tissue.

The preparation work we do involves manifest intention in standing frames mostly with very slight actuation of movement, not yet real motion as would be perceived by the naked eye, but actuation of movement. This then engages these same deep layer connective tissues which is a skill we need to support large amounts of weight. It is not uncommon for practitioners like myself to routinely support 150 lbs. or more with this method.

But some people on this board do indeed get this. TGY comprehends this quite well in my humble opinion. He made an exceptional entry on the "key to internal" thread, page 9 near the bottom.

It's not mystical. It's practical. Just less common I reckon. :)

Thank you again Sifu Patterson. I see some parallels with the Chow Gar training and of course, there are some differences, but the essence of the methodology and what it strives to achieve is very much similar.:)

[taai gihk yahn]

Anyways, that aside... I am referring to training deep connective layers through the discipline called "Shi Swei Jing" (Wash Marrow) as usually translated. CT runs through the entire body, in and around everything. The aspect of Shi Swei that uses incremental weight based training understands this. The more weight that is applied, the greater the "load" on the CT that runs from the privates up through the torso and beyond. Over time, this yields tremendous strength of this tissue.
you speakin' ma language; :D
if you are not already familiar with Tom Myers work on anatomy trains (http://www.anatomytrains.com/), as well as the work of Stephen Levin, MD (http://www.biotensegrity.com/) and Donald Ingber, MD, PhD (http://www.childrenshospital.org/research/ingber/) on biotensegrity, I think you will enjoy it immensely...(the links to all of that stuff plus a lot of other neat things are here (http://www.totalmotionrelease.com/researcharticles.html))
the whole thing about Iron Vest / Palm training makes perfect sense in context of tensegrity principles of continuous tension / discontinuous compression: when u stretch CT, it aligns along the vector of the force, increasing it's strength / resistance to tearing; when u compress it, it becomes discontinuous, dispersing the force over a wide area, again to minimize damage; Iron Vest / Palm training seems to make use of these properties, in effect enhancing the ability of CT to perform in this way (and, a note, I have only done IV / IP minimally in the past, I do not currently train it, so I am not speaking from direct personal experience in that specific regard, even though some of the qigong I do is a "health" version of this)


The preparation work we do involves manifest intention in standing frames mostly with very slight actuation of movement, not yet real motion as would be perceived by the naked eye, but actuation of movement. This then engages these same deep layer connective tissues which is a skill we need to support large amounts of weight. It is not uncommon for practitioners like myself to routinely support 150 lbs. or more with this method.
it SOUNDS like u guys r practicing what involves "pre-contraction" of deep spinal stabilizers, such as the multifidi muscles, which certainly do have relationships to the deep connective (non-contractile) tissue of the core (in fact, I seem to recall reading somewhere that there are fibers of the multifidi attaching directly to the outer dural membances at the lumbar region, but I have to go check that; I have def seen one study that links the sub-occipital musculature to the dura at the cranio-cervical junction though);


But some people on this board do indeed get this. TGY comprehends this quite well in my humble opinion. He made an exceptional entry on the "key to internal" thread, page 9 near the bottom.
thank you very much (again) for the acknowledgement; and let me just say that I write based on a combination of my personal experience and knowledge base that I have accumulated (and as u can tell from the links above, the people who have generated this knowledge are a lot smarter than I am or ever will be); my goal has been to describe these so called "indescribable" practices from a so-called "western" paradigm; my belief is that in doing so you a) demonstrate the universal "truth" of these practices and b) give people a more concrete means by which they can better judge if someone who is professing to know these practices really knows what they are talking about or is just spouting quasi-mystical Taoist terms to cover their own lack of knowledge;
most importantly, there is not a single thing I write that I consider above debate or critique: meaning that, I could well be totally wrong about it all - and if anyone wishes to point out specifically where I am in error - just provide a counter-argument with examples and I am all ears


It's not mystical. It's practical. Just less common I reckon. :)
exactly! in my field, many practitioners think a lot of the phenomenon they see patients experience during various types of hands-on therapy are "paranormal" - spontaneous body movement, emotional responses to treatment, rapid resolution of long-term symptoms seemingly "by magic", and they start getting into explanations about different energy fields, astral bodies, etc, etc - without realizing that all of these things are well within the bounds of normal human physiology - it's just that they are, as Mike succinctly puts it, "less common";

[taai gihk yahn]

awesome article related to this discussion:

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62438

[Drake]

Given that Sifu Dale could probably punch the head off of a rhinoceros, I tend to take his advice on these matters...

[Dale Dugas]

Thank you for the kind words.

[Drake]

Thank you for the kind words.

No, really... you probably could.

[Lee Chiang Po]

And that is why Iron Shirt is something I would take very little faith in. Now Iron Palm or Fist, that is a bit different. I once trained my hands to inflict maximum impact on a target, but I do not have the faith that any amount of training will prevent you from falling to a fierce punch. I can hit really hard. If I strike by surprise I can shove a sternum against the back bone, crushing and squishing anything in between. Lungs, heart, other little soft squishy things. It would kill you instantly almost. I would imagine a look of total surprise just before the lights went out.

[Dale Dugas]

right.

you can do that.

[IronFist]

The body can be toughened over time. Bones can become more dense from repeated impact (Google "Wolff's law"). This is the principle of how Iron Fist training works. By repeatedly hitting stuff with the fist, over time you are a) causing the bones to become more dense, b) increasing your pain tolerance c) increasing your confidence (knowing that you can hit without pain) and d) hopefully improving your structure so that you deliver solid blows.

It's the same thing that happens to Muay Thai guys' shins. They don't call it "iron shin" training specifically, but it's the same idea.

You can do it to the body, too, to an extent.

Forearms and shins basically work the same way as the fist: denser bones, increased pain tolerance and confidence.

Abs work kind of the same way, but there's no bone to condition. You can improve your pain tolerance and get your body more used to taking strikes, however. Houdini could do this. Don't be fooled, there's no mystic power involved. Your flexed abs are protecting you, not magic qi power.

Be aware of this. There are a lot of charlatans out there that want you to believe they have magic powers and some of them even believe they can teach you to develop the same magic powers. They do cool demos on stage like taking sledgehammer blows to the stomach or laying on a bed of nails and using qi power to explain it away. In truth, all of these techniques are done through proper application of physics, physical conditioning, and leverage.

Most of these tricks have been explained on this forum before. Long poles are broken on the arms well past the middle point, so it breaks because of where the fulcrum is, not because there is qi protecting the guys arm.

Sledgehammers are absorbed by the abs because the guy is flexing his abs really tight and has conditioned his body to take the blow (an impressive feat in itself, no idea why people have to try and make it mystic), not because he is circulating his qi.

Concrete slabs being broken on the head/stomach/chest/wherever by some other dude with a sledgehammer are also mostly physics with a bit of physical conditioning thrown in, not magic qi power.

Spears broken on the throat is a physics trick, not a magic ability.

Etc.

So the answer is yes, Iron Fist and Iron Shirt "work." You can condition your body to take a significant amount of damage compared to what an unconditioned body can take. Just don't let yourself get mislead by a lot of the BS that's out there. It's all physical conditioning, and the onus of proof is on the person claiming otherwise to prove that what they are doing cannot be replicated by physics, physical conditioning, and proper body mechanics.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is nothing special or unique about forging the body or its weapons.
Every system of combat has methods to do just that.
EVERY system.
What makes the TCMA "special" is, like Dale said "slow and steady wins the race".
The TCMA methods are slower, more methodical and, IMO, far "healthier" than those of other systems I have been exposed to:
The various japanese and okinawan methods.
The Thai methods
The western methods.
I don't have any experience in the Indian methods so I can comment on them.
There is nothing mystical about this training and I have seen far more effective iron body OUTSIDE of those claiming it is "internal training".
Because I am a "dynamic person" I tend to favour the methods that are more dynamic, that is NOT to say that the more "static" methods don't have merit, they are just simply "not my thing".

[Dale Dugas]

Internal training trains the connective tissues first, and then moves to the external with training the tissues and bones to accept more stress through their systems.

My Iron Vest is not about Qi or any of that silliness.

Its as Shifu Patterson mentioned. You are training fascia/connective tissues and then external tissues.

[Mike Patterson]

Mike, Do you have any connection to 天斩门(Tian Zhan Men) or 霆斩门(Ting Zhan Men)?

I do not recognize these two schools, John. So if we are connected, I am unaware of such a connection.

[Mike Patterson]

Sledgehammers are absorbed by the abs because the guy is flexing his abs really tight and has conditioned his body to take the blow (an impressive feat in itself, no idea why people have to try and make it mystic)

I agree with pretty much everything in your post except for MAYBE the above statement. I specifically said that what we do is not mystical, it's practical, just less common.

But are you trying to imply that this is just regular ab work? Hanging, supporting and swinging 150 lbs. from your junk is hardly in the realm of ordinary ab work and/or conditioning. And it DOES require special training.

Oh, and as a disclaimer: Don't try this at home, folks. You DO NEED someone qualified to teach you this method or you risk serious, and very personal injury. :)

[Mike Patterson]

Internal training trains the connective tissues first, and then moves to the external with training the tissues and bones to accept more stress through their systems.

My Iron Vest is not about Qi or any of that silliness.

Its as Shifu Patterson mentioned. You are training fascia/connective tissues and then external tissues.

Right again, Dale. The deep body layers have to be stimulated in some way. Simply loading the external muscles, no matter how you do it, won't yield the same results. Although I have met some very well conditioned folks that approach things in that way. Our way is to load every layer systematically and it starts with the CT.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Internal training trains the connective tissues first, and then moves to the external with training the tissues and bones to accept more stress through their systems.

My Iron Vest is not about Qi or any of that silliness.

Its as Shifu Patterson mentioned. You are training fascia/connective tissues and then external tissues.

And this approach is what, I believe, makes the TCMA method "superiour" and that is why I do them.

[IronFist]

I agree with pretty much everything in your post except for MAYBE the above statement. I specifically said that what we do is not mystical, it's practical, just less common.

But are you trying to imply that this is just regular ab work? Hanging, supporting and swinging 150 lbs. from your junk is hardly in the realm of ordinary ab work and/or conditioning. And it DOES require special training.

Oh, and as a disclaimer: Don't try this at home, folks. You DO NEED someone qualified to teach you this method or you risk serious, and very personal injury. :)

Oh, I absolutely agree. Doing crunches or leg raises or whatever all day isn't going to give you the ability to stop a sledgehammer with your abs.

If you're training for that, you have to do more than just ab work. Just like with iron fist or iron forearm or whatever, you need to slowly incorporate harder and harder strikes into your training. You can't just do 100s of crunches a day for years and then one day be like "hey dude, hit me in the stomach with a sledge hammer!"

Mike, you sound like a cool guy. You'd be surprised how many people get their panties in a knot (and send me threatening PMs) when I make posts saying that magic qi power is not what is protecting them during their demonstrations.

Of course, I will concede that it is actually qi protecting them (and not tensed ab muscles and body mechanics) if they perform their demo under the following conditions:

1) they are blindfolded and unable to see when the person is about to strike (prevents them from flexing their abs at the right moment)

2) they let a trained fighter strike them rather than using some schmoe from the audience who throws a weak punch that wouldn't hurt them anyway

3) they are not fat and hiding behind their protective layers of adipose tissue

But indeed, every demo I've seen involves a dude who, at the moment of impact, is flexing every muscle for all he's worth. Now don't misunderstand. That is, in fact, the correct way to take a blow. And these people should be extremely proud of their conditioning. After all, neither I nor most other people can take a sledgehammer blow to the abs. But they aren't happy with it; they have to blame it on mystic power and woo their audience. They warm up by doing qigong exercises or whatever while the announcer tells the audience "he's moving his qi to his dan tien to protect him from the strike" or some mystic stuff like that. And the funny part is it totally overlooks the fact that even if it was qi protecting them, which it's not, but even if it was, it would be useless if they have to stop an attacker to do their warmup exercises first :D

The human body is capable of some awesome feats. I hate seeing the reputation of martial arts being dulled by silly mystic nonsense and flim flam stage tricks.

[Mike Patterson]

Oh, I absolutely agree. Doing crunches or leg raises or whatever all day isn't going to give you the ability to stop a sledgehammer with your abs.

If you're training for that, you have to do more than just ab work. Just like with iron fist or iron forearm or whatever, you need to slowly incorporate harder and harder strikes into your training. You can't just do 100s of crunches a day for years and then one day be like "hey dude, hit me in the stomach with a sledge hammer!"

Mike, you sound like a cool guy. You'd be surprised how many people get their panties in a knot (and send me threatening PMs) when I make posts saying that magic qi power is not what is protecting them during their demonstrations.

Of course, I will concede that it is actually qi protecting them (and not tensed ab muscles and body mechanics) if they perform their demo under the following conditions:

1) they are blindfolded and unable to see when the person is about to strike (prevents them from flexing their abs at the right moment)

2) they let a trained fighter strike them rather than using some schmoe from the audience who throws a weak punch that wouldn't hurt them anyway

3) they are not fat and hiding behind their protective layers of adipose tissue

But indeed, every demo I've seen involves a dude who, at the moment of impact, is flexing every muscle for all he's worth. Now don't misunderstand. That is, in fact, the correct way to take a blow. And these people should be extremely proud of their conditioning. After all, neither I nor most other people can take a sledgehammer blow to the abs. But they aren't happy with it; they have to blame it on mystic power and woo their audience. They warm up by doing qigong exercises or whatever while the announcer tells the audience "he's moving his qi to his dan tien to protect him from the strike" or some mystic stuff like that. And the funny part is it totally overlooks the fact that even if it was qi protecting them, which it's not, but even if it was, it would be useless if they have to stop an attacker to do their warmup exercises first :D

The human body is capable of some awesome feats. I hate seeing the reputation of martial arts being dulled by silly mystic nonsense and flim flam stage tricks.

Agree 100%... well, maybe 98.2% as it is not ONLY about taking gradually stonger impacts, but that is a part of it for certain. It's just not where it starts.

Yet, definitely NOT mystical.. anatomical only. Shi Swei merely takes advantage of the link of deep layer connective tissue that runs in the male from the privates all the way up to the head. Indeed, when you see someone such as me supporting 150 lbs. you will quite literally see the taxation on these structures through the throat visually. It's that obvious. Btw, women can do this training as well, but in a slightly different way given the inherrent differences in anatomy. :)

I've spent my whole life trying to "de-mystify" the internal martial arts for people, so we are in the same camp where that is concerned. (Oddly, nobody ever sends me nasty PM's though.) Perhaps this will be that time. ;)

Your reasoning in your final paragraph is resonant with me. Which is why I performed the demo coming right out of a set, took stance and then had Vince Black let fly with the hammer. It fits your equation.. no prep, context of motion only, trained martial artist swinging the hammer.

Funny though.. martial artists say; "use a trained guy" and cite your reasoning, which I agree with. But non-martial artists say; "yeah, you're using a trained guy to control the random factor".

Oh well. You just can't please everyone all the time, right? :D

[taai gihk yahn]

Indeed, when you see someone such as me supporting 150 lbs. you will quite literally see the taxation on these structures through the throat visually. It's that obvious.

I agree: osteopathically, you often treat the sacrum and coccyx to resolve headaches; this utilizes what the osteopaths term the "core link" - the dural membranes that move from sacrum to occiput (in fact, if u do "internal" coccyx treatment, sometimes the person can feel the tension pulling up into their ethamoid bone - sort of behind the bridge of the nose); when u contract pelvic floor, if u r sensitive enough, u feel changes in the cranium; often we use movements of the feet to correct lesions in the head; finally, the three main transverse diaphragms occur at the level of pelvic floor, mid thoracic and cranial (behind the eyes) - they r def going to b involved in dissipating long axis forces placed on the system;

yeh, this makes lots of sense...thanks for sharing this in such a straight forward manner Mike - it cuts through a lot of silliness that people put out there, for various reasons

[taai gihk yahn]

I've spent my whole life trying to "de-mystify" the internal martial arts for people, so we are in the same camp where that is concerned. (Oddly, nobody ever sends me nasty PM's though.) Perhaps this will be that time. ;)
if you ever want to write a book about it, I'd be happy to contribute the biomechanical stuff...just sayin'...

[IronFist]

@Mike: cheers brother, we're in agreement. It's nice to meet a practitioner of these arts who agrees with me.

@TYG: whoa did this thread just become an anatomy book? :D

[Dale Dugas]

I agree: osteopathically, you often treat the sacrum and coccyx to resolve headaches; this utilizes what the osteopaths term the "core link" - the dural membranes that move from sacrum to occiput (in fact, if u do "internal" coccyx treatment, sometimes the person can feel the tension pulling up into their ethamoid bone - sort of behind the bridge of the nose); when u contract pelvic floor, if u r sensitive enough, u feel changes in the cranium; often we use movements of the feet to correct lesions in the head; finally, the three main transverse diaphragms occur at the level of pelvic floor, mid thoracic and cranial (behind the eyes) - they r def going to b involved in dissipating long axis forces placed on the system;

yeh, this makes lots of sense...thanks for sharing this in such a straight forward manner Mike - it cuts through a lot of silliness that people put out there, for various reasons

Chris, we have a theory in TCM(Traditional Chinese Medicine) where we treat the top for bottom issues and treat the bottom for top issues.

Nice to see its in other systems of health care as well.

[Jimbo]

I recently saw something on TV that I'd seen years ago. It showed a karate group, maybe from somewhere in the eastern or southern U.S., who had people punch and chop them in the neck, take full kicks and punches to the torso, and full-on kicks to the groin. It sure looked real, but I thought the training method might be different from that used in CMA, and possibly harmful in the long-term, but I can't be sure on that, either. I'm not interested in their method, but I was wondering what you all might think of that, if you've seen it.

[Dale Dugas]

That is the Juko Kai people.

They do hard style body conditioning.

They can take a hit or two.

[Jimbo]

Thanks, Dale.

You know, another benefit of iron body training that occurred to me is, if a practitioner happened to be in an accident, such as a minor (or major?) car accident. I'm sure someone who had the training to a good degree would be far better off than without. Though I've never trained iron body myself.

[IronFist]

There are some interesting threads on bullshido about Juko Kai:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9116
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10217&page=1
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=6998
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=33433&page=1

Some legal stuff:
http://www.e-budokai.com/jukokai/index.htm

[David Jamieson]

Thanks, Dale.

You know, another benefit of iron body training that occurred to me is, if a practitioner happened to be in an accident, such as a minor (or major?) car accident. I'm sure someone who had the training to a good degree would be far better off than without. Though I've never trained iron body myself.

There's no such thing as car accidents. All preventable collisions caused by human error or system failure. Either way, it's no accident. :-)

Having said that, no, it won't help you in extreme force trauma situations like 3000 lbs of rolling steel. You pays your nickel and you takes your chances.

what it does do is help you to absorb forces particular to those propelled by human power and it helps you to recover quickly from such strikes. Such is the nature of any conditioning.

The Iron training is a slow and gradual process that achieves conditioning that lasts and is steady. It is another way to get to that conditioning as opposed to the methods used by modern fighters, which is medicine balls, fire and return strike drills, bag work, sparring etc.

It's not as mysterious as some of the stories wrapped around it. It is slow repetitive striking in targeted areas in order to toughen skin, add density to muscle tissue and to fortify bone through the ********y process.

Won't make you indestructible, but will teach you a lot about the forces you can project and sustain.

[Dale Dugas]

You will not be undestructable as David points out, but if you seriously train these skills you can take more abuse than someone who is not trained.

You get hit, you can brush off most strikes and kicks, and when you hit them, you will go through them and they fall down and cannot get up as easily.

[IronFist]

And if you randomly bang your forearm on something, it won't hurt as bad :)

[Jimbo]

I have developed that in my forearms, but haven't had any formal training in that manner for my torso. Other than when I was young and sparred a lot, and was able to take hard shots, but IMO that was different from an organized iron body training.

[Fa Xing]

When I was a teenager, and more into traditional training, I used to bang my forearms against trees and such. After a while I stopped, but even now, 15 years later, they are still tough as hell; and the only work they get is from lifting.

That reminds me of a story, I had to be hospitalized when I was 16, and when the medic tried to put the IV in my forearm, he had a lot of trouble and remarked that they were really tough. By which I replied, "thanks!"

[Dragonzbane76]

Not a big believer in these tactics, not stating that if it's your bag don't do it, by all means go for it.

My thoughts are yes you need to be able to take a punch/kick but more importantly, shouldn't you be getting out of the way of the train when you see it coming. I understand that not all things are seen when connected with striking and that you should be able to condition you body enough to take and accept hits, but again, my thoughts are MOVE. the time spent training this could be spent on foot work, bob and weave, level changing, etc. I like to move in for the clinch, which negates the strikes to some degree. But again this is my opinion and is held as such. If it's your game have at it.
cheers.:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

In regards to the duration of the effects.
While SOME characteristics will remain ( ability to take a shot, "harder" hands, etc), you need consistant training to keep them at a high level.
That said I have found that, like doing weight training, taking intermittant breaks actually gives the body time to recover and adapt better to the training.
It has been my experience that after the "core" of the program is done that taking a week break, maybe two, every few months (3-4), seems to not only refresh one mentally but allow to body to "recover" and "adapt" to the training.
You come back to it "better".

[IronFist]

In regards to the duration of the effects.
While SOME characteristics will remain ( ability to take a shot, "harder" hands, etc), you need consistant training to keep them at a high level.
That said I have found that, like doing weight training, taking intermittant breaks actually gives the body time to recover and adapt better to the training.
It has been my experience that after the "core" of the program is done that taking a week break, maybe two, every few months (3-4), seems to not only refresh one mentally but allow to body to "recover" and "adapt" to the training.
You come back to it "better".

Agreed. I was told that, once you get past the beginner stages, less is actually more.

In the beginning you need to do it every day for the first 6 months or whatever. Once you've been doing it for 6-12 months, you can get away with missing some days every now and then.

This is probably because at this level it becomes an issue maintenance rather than increasing conditioning.

Of course, if you're gonna take a week or two off like you suggest, when you resume, I would build back up to where you were over a few days rather than jumping right back in. It's like if you take a week or two off from weightlifting, you don't come back and attempt your 1RM on the first set.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Agreed. I was told that, once you get past the beginner stages, less is actually more.

In the beginning you need to do it every day for the first 6 months or whatever. Once you've been doing it for 6-12 months, you can get away with missing some days every now and then.

This is probably because at this level it becomes an issue maintenance rather than increasing conditioning.

Of course, if you're gonna take a week or two off like you suggest, when you resume, I would build back up to where you were over a few days rather than jumping right back in. It's like if you take a week or two off from weightlifting, you don't come back and attempt your 1RM on the first set.

Yes, agreed oh rusty fist.
:p

[Faruq]

As Dale said, yes it works.

Iron Palm
Just remember that iron palm is much more than just the ability to break blocks with your hands. Yes, I can do that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD2CJC82vWM Though it often gets the most press, block breaking is a minor, secondary effect that comes from iron palm training.

In my opinion, the true point of iron palm training is two-fold:
1. It toughens the hand to protect it against injury when striking.
2. It teaches you the physics of energy transference through an object.

Iron palm was designed to teach you how to strike the human body with concussive force that can injure the internal organs.

A qualified instructor is the best way to learn the skill. I also recommend the iron palm DVD from the Iron Lotus Society: http://www.theironlotussociety.com/Products.htm It is an excellent resource and is just like being there with them in class. Plus, they hold nothing back.

Iron Body
A very necessary skill in ancient times, a cool skill to learn in modern times. It toughens the body to endure a great deal of physical abuse.

Can anyone here contact Rod Morgan for me? I paypal'd him the money for the iron palm DVD back on 12/09/11 and he said I'd receive it by the 19th at the latest. I didn't receive it and have contacted him twice since for a tracking number, but have received no response. I think you experienced a delay initially as well Mooying, but eventually received it. I still haven't received mine though?.....

[mooyingmantis]

Can anyone here contact Rod Morgan for me? I paypal'd him the money for the iron palm DVD back on 12/09/11 and he said I'd receive it by the 19th at the latest. I didn't receive it and have contacted him twice since for a tracking number, but have received no response. I think you experienced a delay initially as well Mooying, but eventually received it. I still haven't received mine though?.....

No, I didn't experience a delay. There was a mix up as to the DVD I received, but after I notified Rod about the mix up he sent another DVD which I received in about 2-3 days.

You can contact him through Facebook via Rodney Morgan. His avatar on FB is the Iron Palm Society logo. So, he should be easy to find.

[mooyingmantis]

In regards to the duration of the effects.
While SOME characteristics will remain ( ability to take a shot, "harder" hands, etc), you need consistant training to keep them at a high level.
That said I have found that, like doing weight training, taking intermittant breaks actually gives the body time to recover and adapt better to the training.
It has been my experience that after the "core" of the program is done that taking a week break, maybe two, every few months (3-4), seems to not only refresh one mentally but allow to body to "recover" and "adapt" to the training.
You come back to it "better".

That is my belief as well.

[Faruq]

No, I didn't experience a delay. There was a mix up as to the DVD I received, but after I notified Rod about the mix up he sent another DVD which I received in about 2-3 days.

You can contact him through Facebook via Rodney Morgan. His avatar on FB is the Iron Palm Society logo. So, he should be easy to find.

Thanks, bro. Since my e-mails have been abortive, perhaps contact via Facebook will receive a response.

[Dale Dugas]

I called and talked to Rod about this.

He is on it and getting a new DVD out to you.

Its worth the wait.

Let me know when you need Dit Da Jow for training.

[mooyingmantis]

Thanks, bro. Since my e-mails have been abortive, perhaps contact via Facebook will receive a response.

I sent him a copy of your post via PM at Facebook. So, I am sure you will be hearing from him. As Dale said, I think it will be worth the wait. Rod and his group are the best I have ever seen at breaking skill and conditioning training. They hold nothing back.

Oops, I mistakenly put "Iron Palm Society" in my last post. It is actually "Iron Lotus Society".

[Faruq]

I sent him a copy of your post via PM at Facebook. So, I am sure you will be hearing from him. As Dale said, I think it will be worth the wait. Rod and his group are the best I have ever seen at breaking skill and conditioning training. They hold nothing back.

Oops, I mistakenly put "Iron Palm Society" in my last post. It is actually "Iron Lotus Society".

Thanks, Mooying. Rod did contact me on 12/28/11 and said his wife was mailing it and he was gonna give me a tracking number, but as of 12/31/11 he has still not provided it, so I'm a little confused as to what he's doing since I paid him back on 12/09/11. I would've provided the tracking # when he contacted me on 12/28/11, if I were him. It's probably on its way, so no big deal. If he weren't recommended by people on the site, then I'd be worried, lol.

And yes, just like those of Sifu Garry Hearfield, I am very impressed by the skills and knowledge of Rod and his society. I can't wait to finally get the DVD!

Thanks Again Buddy!