distance control

[kung fu fighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB86LNjbjbs

[k gledhill]

More to it, like tactics...? What are our objectives ?

[kung fu fighter]

What tactics and strategies do you use to deal with long range fighters who probe with uncommitted jabs and stutter steps at the teaser zone to sucker you into committing?

[YouKnowWho]

What tactics and strategies do you use to deal with long range fighters who probe with uncommitted jabs and stutter steps at the teaser zone to sucker you into committing?

Long range fighters use the "wood" strategy.
Since "earth" strategy can be used to against the "wood" strategy.

You should move in inch by inch with strong defense to compress the distance. Don't commit on anything until you get into the short range that you want.

[k gledhill]

Long range fighters use the "wood" strategy.
Since "earth" strategy can be used to against the "wood" strategy.

You should move in inch by inch with strong defense to compress the distance. Don't commit on anything until you get into the short range that you want.

Ah the 'ol wood and earth, strategy...:rolleyes:

[imperialtaichi]

What tactics and strategies do you use to deal with long range fighters who probe with uncommitted jabs and stutter steps at the teaser zone to sucker you into committing?

Similar strategy to a shooter.

[wingchunIan]

Long range fighters use the "wood" strategy.
Since "earth" strategy can be used to against the "wood" strategy.

You should move in inch by inch with strong defense to compress the distance. Don't commit on anything until you get into the short range that you want.

Personally I find moving my feet quickly and explosively is the best strategy! using angles and the arms to avoid being hit on the way in.

[Grumblegeezer]

This can be a tough problem if you are sparring with a good long-range fighter who knows how to keep you on the outside. One strategy is to hang back and get them to commit towards you, then explosively move in. But if the guy is wise to that and has a lot of reach on you, you are going to have to really work to get inside.

On the other hand, as noted in the videoclip, this is more of an issue in sparring and competition. In a self-defense situation, it's more likely that an attacker is coming towards you. WC is perfect for that.

[jeetsao]

On the other hand, as noted in the videoclip, this is more of an issue in sparring and competition. In a self-defense situation, it's more likely that an attacker is coming towards you. WC is perfect for that.[/QUOTE]

Exactly! Wing chun is not a sport sparring art. If he is using uncommitted jabs and steps, he is not really attacking. No defense required. This is not what wing chun is designed for.

[kung fu fighter]

I really like how Jin puts everything together starting at 21:55 into this clip by not overextending his bridge to reach while moving forward http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqaGq0GVyOc&feature=relmfu

[Mr. Chang]

On the other hand, as noted in the videoclip, this is more of an issue in sparring and competition. In a self-defense situation, it's more likely that an attacker is coming towards you. WC is perfect for that.

Exactly! Wing chun is not a sport sparring art. If he is using uncommitted jabs and steps, he is not really attacking. No defense required. This is not what wing chun is designed for.[/QUOTE]

The main objective of sparring is to learn how to conquer your fear and learn how to judge distance and develop a perfect sense of timing. Developing the execution of technique is secondary during sparring.

[trubblman]

What tactics and strategies do you use to deal with long range fighters who probe with uncommitted jabs and stutter steps at the teaser zone to sucker you into committing?

My teacher instructs using a backhand/forehand checking action to set up the attack; if the opponent retreats as many Western style strikers are used to doing, angle off and check the elbow.

[Hendrik]

Wing Chun has. Variety of technics for different ranges adapted from white crane mother source.

[Minghequan]

Hendrik:

A simple and easy question related to the discussion if I may ...........

Who have you actually trained with in White Crane?

I am sure we would all grow and learn from your answer here.

[kung fu fighter]

Great article

"Wing Chun has many mnemonic phrases, called "wing chun kuen kuit" designed to help practitioners remember and understand the principals behind the system. These short, often sing song phrases help to elucidate the core principals of the system, however their meaning is often not obvious. This may have been in part due to history where a particular Kung Fu practice was kept behind "closed doors", and thus making the meaning of the phrase harder for outsiders to understand helped to keep the power of the system hidden. These phrases have a "koan" nature to them where they are hard to understand linguistically but are intended to shock a certain understanding in those who examine them closely.

Perhaps the most famous of these is one which encompasses the core tenets of the system. This phrase is "Loi Lau Hoi Sung, Lat Sau Jik Chung". This phrase is a short summary of the central concepts behind the system and is illustrative of the genius of the system when understood properly. Understanding can only come once you have gone through some training of Wing Chun and have "become enlightened" as to how the system is designed to work.

Unfortunately, if one watches videos of so called Wing Chun on You Tube and analyzes them from the perspective of this phrase it is easy to see that many practitioners do not understand the central concepts of the system and thus perform poorly in sparing. Wing Chun is not a rote system where practitioners are expected to memorize a series of moves but rather is a principled system where students must come to understand the core concepts of the system and continuously work to apply them properly as they train their techniques. Understanding of the "koans" of Wing Chun is a great way to train the mind of the student so that the body reacts properly and the training is not done in a rote way but rather is driven by understanding of the principals behind the system that make it effective.

The first part of this phrase "Loi Lau" can be translated as “When it comes, stay with it” or "Stick to what comes". This is critical to good Wing Chun and is reflected in the second form, Chum Kiu, which teaches how to begin building the bridge with an opponent by accepting and redirecting their force in order to put the practitioner in the proper range for effective Wing Chun. The system is not designed to work at range. It is thus often referred to as "the science of in-fighting". Many other forms of martial arts prefer range attacks in order to keep the practitioner at a distance and thus avoid the attacks of ones opponents. By accepting the attack of an opponent the Wing Chun practitioner allows the opponent to close the distance while committing them to a given attack. This puts the Wing Chun practitioner at the right distance for the techniques of the system give him the advantage in the fight. Furthermore, by waiting for the opponent to commit to an attack the Wing Chun practitioner is able to launch an immediate counter attack, but perhaps that is a topic for another article.

The phrase ‘Hoi Sung’ can be translated as "When it leaves, accompany it” or "Stick to what goes". This is also critical to good Wing Chun which is specifically designed to prevent the opponent from being able to launch ranged attacks, as stated before. Many martial arts are designed to work at some distance, targeting attacks at the end of the foot and hand range in order to keep the fighter at a "safe" distance to evade counter attacks. Wing Chun, on the other hand, is designed to use this aspect of the design of other systems against the opponent by closing to a distance where these techniques are rendered ineffective. It is a close range form designed to trap and jam the opponent by closing to very short range where other systems have little or no effective attacks. Thus it is vital to effective Wing Chun to close the distance and keep the distance closed.

Together these four words instruct the Wing Chun fighter to allow the opponent to close the distance so that the structural techniques of close in fighting that Wing Chun affords gives him the edge, but then not to allow the opponent to get far enough away to loose this structural advantage during the fight. The system maintains an extremely aggressive posture and requires a certain courage and trust in the techniques of the system in order to be effective. Sadly a lot of what I see on You Tube misses this core concept entirely where the fighters are too timid and lack the aggression required to make the system effective.

In effective Wing Chun the idea of "Loi Lau Hoi Sung" is perused at both the body level and at the individual limb level. That is, if an opponent steps back then the Wing Chun fighter steps in in order to keep the fight at the close range which gives the Wing Chun fighter the edge, following the opponent's center of mass. However, Chi Sao drills are also designed to train this concept by teaching that one must follow the opponent's arm if it retracts in order to seek an opening through which to hit. It is amazing in Chi Sao practice to feel exactly how little space is required in order to make an effective strike. Furthermore, many martial arts require that practitioners withdraw their arm or leg in order to "****" it for an attack or to counterbalance an attacking hand or leg on the opposite side. Wing Chun is designed to take advantage of this movement of the opponent in order to take advantage of this hole in the opponent's defenses by following the opponents hand as it is withdrawn and then attacking the center as soon as a hole is sensed. Chia Sao "sticky hand" drills are designed to train the fighter to make these motions reflexive, requiring no thought or vision but instead using the faster circuits of touch. This is what allows Wing Chun fighters to engage an opponent blind folded. By following the withdrawal of an opponent's arm the fighter is able to sense a hole and use it to effect an attack without needing to see the opponent at all.

The danger of this idea, and sadly a lot of what I see on You Tube, is "chasing the hands", which is a serious mistake. Wing Chun strives to always attack the opponent's center line and thus all attacks should be directed at the center line and not at the opponent's limbs. Instead it follows the limb of an opponent as it is withdrawn in order to dominate the space for an attack. The big danger in chasing the hands is that opportunities to attack are missed. The fighter instead becomes a puppet moving his hands where his opponent leads him instead of directing attacks at the opponent and taking advantage of the holes in his defense created by counter balancing techniques described above. Thus there is a careful balance that needs to be struck at the hand level in following the opponents hands as they retreat and launching an attack. This is explained and warned against in the second part of the phrase under discussion.

The phrase "Lat Sau Jik Chung" can be translated as "When the hands withdraw, attack without hesitation" or "When the hands withdraw rush in". This is in effect a warning to the practitioner against chasing the opponent's hands and speaks to the explosive and aggressive attacks that are characteristics of Wing Chun. To be effective at Wing Chun one must have the sensitivity to feel when the hand has withdrawn enough to create a gap through which an attack can be launched and to use that gap to rush in with an explosive aggressive attack in order to end the fight as quickly as possible.

Taken all together "Loi Lau Hoi Sung, Lat Sau Jik Chung" can be translated as "Accept what comes, follow what leaves and when the hands withdraw attack without hesitation." Only by truly understanding and practicing what this phrase is trying to teach can a Wing Chun fighter use the system effectively. Sadly, much of what I see on You Tube fails to follow this important advice. Of course these phrases are no substitute for proper guidance, correction, practice and experience. Seek out a proper instructor in order to truly come to understand their meaning.

This is not of course to say that I have mastered the practice of this phrase at this point. But I understand it at an intellectual level and am using that to drive my training at the physical level. I believe that the former is required for skill in the latter."

[k gledhill]

Great article

"Wing Chun has many mnemonic phrases, called "wing chun kuen kuit" designed to help practitioners remember and understand the principals behind the system. These short, often sing song phrases help to elucidate the core principals of the system, however their meaning is often not obvious. This may have been in part due to history where a particular Kung Fu practice was kept behind "closed doors", and thus making the meaning of the phrase harder for outsiders to understand helped to keep the power of the system hidden. These phrases have a "koan" nature to them where they are hard to understand linguistically but are intended to shock a certain understanding in those who examine them closely.

Perhaps the most famous of these is one which encompasses the core tenets of the system. This phrase is "Loi Lau Hoi Sung, Lat Sau Jik Chung". This phrase is a short summary of the central concepts behind the system and is illustrative of the genius of the system when understood properly. Understanding can only come once you have gone through some training of Wing Chun and have "become enlightened" as to how the system is designed to work.

Unfortunately, if one watches videos of so called Wing Chun on You Tube and analyzes them from the perspective of this phrase it is easy to see that many practitioners do not understand the central concepts of the system and thus perform poorly in sparing. Wing Chun is not a rote system where practitioners are expected to memorize a series of moves but rather is a principled system where students must come to understand the core concepts of the system and continuously work to apply them properly as they train their techniques. Understanding of the "koans" of Wing Chun is a great way to train the mind of the student so that the body reacts properly and the training is not done in a rote way but rather is driven by understanding of the principals behind the system that make it effective.

The first part of this phrase "Loi Lau" can be translated as “When it comes, stay with it” or "Stick to what comes". This is critical to good Wing Chun and is reflected in the second form, Chum Kiu, which teaches how to begin building the bridge with an opponent by accepting and redirecting their force in order to put the practitioner in the proper range for effective Wing Chun. The system is not designed to work at range. It is thus often referred to as "the science of in-fighting". Many other forms of martial arts prefer range attacks in order to keep the practitioner at a distance and thus avoid the attacks of ones opponents. By accepting the attack of an opponent the Wing Chun practitioner allows the opponent to close the distance while committing them to a given attack. This puts the Wing Chun practitioner at the right distance for the techniques of the system give him the advantage in the fight. Furthermore, by waiting for the opponent to commit to an attack the Wing Chun practitioner is able to launch an immediate counter attack, but perhaps that is a topic for another article.

The phrase ‘Hoi Sung’ can be translated as "When it leaves, accompany it” or "Stick to what goes". This is also critical to good Wing Chun which is specifically designed to prevent the opponent from being able to launch ranged attacks, as stated before. Many martial arts are designed to work at some distance, targeting attacks at the end of the foot and hand range in order to keep the fighter at a "safe" distance to evade counter attacks. Wing Chun, on the other hand, is designed to use this aspect of the design of other systems against the opponent by closing to a distance where these techniques are rendered ineffective. It is a close range form designed to trap and jam the opponent by closing to very short range where other systems have little or no effective attacks. Thus it is vital to effective Wing Chun to close the distance and keep the distance closed.

Together these four words instruct the Wing Chun fighter to allow the opponent to close the distance so that the structural techniques of close in fighting that Wing Chun affords gives him the edge, but then not to allow the opponent to get far enough away to loose this structural advantage during the fight. The system maintains an extremely aggressive posture and requires a certain courage and trust in the techniques of the system in order to be effective. Sadly a lot of what I see on You Tube misses this core concept entirely where the fighters are too timid and lack the aggression required to make the system effective.

In effective Wing Chun the idea of "Loi Lau Hoi Sung" is perused at both the body level and at the individual limb level. That is, if an opponent steps back then the Wing Chun fighter steps in in order to keep the fight at the close range which gives the Wing Chun fighter the edge, following the opponent's center of mass. However, Chi Sao drills are also designed to train this concept by teaching that one must follow the opponent's arm if it retracts in order to seek an opening through which to hit. It is amazing in Chi Sao practice to feel exactly how little space is required in order to make an effective strike. Furthermore, many martial arts require that practitioners withdraw their arm or leg in order to "****" it for an attack or to counterbalance an attacking hand or leg on the opposite side. Wing Chun is designed to take advantage of this movement of the opponent in order to take advantage of this hole in the opponent's defenses by following the opponents hand as it is withdrawn and then attacking the center as soon as a hole is sensed. Chia Sao "sticky hand" drills are designed to train the fighter to make these motions reflexive, requiring no thought or vision but instead using the faster circuits of touch. This is what allows Wing Chun fighters to engage an opponent blind folded. By following the withdrawal of an opponent's arm the fighter is able to sense a hole and use it to effect an attack without needing to see the opponent at all.

The danger of this idea, and sadly a lot of what I see on You Tube, is "chasing the hands", which is a serious mistake. Wing Chun strives to always attack the opponent's center line and thus all attacks should be directed at the center line and not at the opponent's limbs. Instead it follows the limb of an opponent as it is withdrawn in order to dominate the space for an attack. The big danger in chasing the hands is that opportunities to attack are missed. The fighter instead becomes a puppet moving his hands where his opponent leads him instead of directing attacks at the opponent and taking advantage of the holes in his defense created by counter balancing techniques described above. Thus there is a careful balance that needs to be struck at the hand level in following the opponents hands as they retreat and launching an attack. This is explained and warned against in the second part of the phrase under discussion.

The phrase "Lat Sau Jik Chung" can be translated as "When the hands withdraw, attack without hesitation" or "When the hands withdraw rush in". This is in effect a warning to the practitioner against chasing the opponent's hands and speaks to the explosive and aggressive attacks that are characteristics of Wing Chun. To be effective at Wing Chun one must have the sensitivity to feel when the hand has withdrawn enough to create a gap through which an attack can be launched and to use that gap to rush in with an explosive aggressive attack in order to end the fight as quickly as possible.

Taken all together "Loi Lau Hoi Sung, Lat Sau Jik Chung" can be translated as "Accept what comes, follow what leaves and when the hands withdraw attack without hesitation." Only by truly understanding and practicing what this phrase is trying to teach can a Wing Chun fighter use the system effectively. Sadly, much of what I see on You Tube fails to follow this important advice. Of course these phrases are no substitute for proper guidance, correction, practice and experience. Seek out a proper instructor in order to truly come to understand their meaning.

This is not of course to say that I have mastered the practice of this phrase at this point. But I understand it at an intellectual level and am using that to drive my training at the physical level. I believe that the former is required for skill in the latter."

Great stuff, how many know the Lat sao chit chung drills ? How to add movement to the mix ?

[kung fu fighter]

The problem that most wing chun people face with boxers's is half way through this video when the narrator says "the problem most wing chun practioners have is when they tend to use trapping in a boxing invironment where distance is relatively great and punches are not committed" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q74oxk65AZ4.



How would you deal with this situation when the attacker does not step in range close enough for you to hit or reach his head/body, when he is just staying at that borderline zone trying to tease you into counter attacking by probing with uncommitted jabs to create openings and set you up for his committed power shots, such the rear cross once he creates an opening?

[Hendrik]

The problem that most wing chun people face with boxers's is half way through this video when the narrator says "the problem most wing chun practioners have is when they tend to use trapping in a boxing invironment where distance is relatively great and punches are not committed" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q74oxk65AZ4.



How would you deal with this situation when the attacker does not step in range close enough for you to hit or reach his head/body, when he is just staying at that borderline zone trying to tease you into counter attacking by probing with uncommitted jabs to create openings and set you up for his committed power shots, such the rear cross once he creates an opening?

Wing Chun is more then the above elements.

As I have keep saying. The key is power or momentum generation of WCK.if you are using same as every one else momentum generation or even worst lock yourself in that rigid frame of triangle shape...ect. You are dead. If you have a faster accreted power generation then who cares? It is like racing his honda civic with your Porsche boxer.

That is why WCK needs the snake engine and 4 types of momentum generation source . For fast acceleration and dynamic adaptivity or the chuk keng, You don't have that, you can't fight good.

[Phil Redmond]

I saw the vid and l have to say he's speaking from a point of view of the WC he's familiar with.

[wingchunIan]

The problem that most wing chun people face with boxers's is half way through this video when the narrator says "the problem most wing chun practioners have is when they tend to use trapping in a boxing invironment where distance is relatively great and punches are not committed" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q74oxk65AZ4.



How would you deal with this situation when the attacker does not step in range close enough for you to hit or reach his head/body, when he is just staying at that borderline zone trying to tease you into counter attacking by probing with uncommitted jabs to create openings and set you up for his committed power shots, such the rear cross once he creates an opening?

It's more likely in sparring than in the street to be fair. When I'm training with partners who adopt this kind of style I normally use my legs. Sometimes I use them to kick the lead leg, sometimes as a distraction, often simply to move me forward on angles. As for the hands, short sharp pak sau or jut sau can make it very difficult for the jabber to withdraw the hand before you can close the distance and mun sau and fak sau are great ways to take the initiative away from a partner who likes to dictate the range and timing by using the jab. As i said at the start though this doesn't really tend to happen much outside of training. If it happens in the street walk away, to stop you he'll have to come into range.

[TenTigers]

so..how does, "Loi lau hoi sung, etc" address the tactic of attacking the attack-he starts, I land first..? Is there a kuen kuit for this?

[WC1277]

You don't wait for them to attack once you decide to fight even though it was interpreted that way above. He's wrong. It means that if there is a clash upon attack(your attack!) by maintaining your structure you'll 'turn' your 'triangle' in some way with "what comes" to neutralize the force, hence "accepting" and if your structure is good your 'triangle' will automatically come back to center, hence "follow what leaves", and then the last part is self explanatory, continue the attack upon loss of contact.