Best Kung fu style to learn real fighting skills

[RWilson]

We can all agree that forms do not produce fighting skills. Co diyioning forms help with strength, power, stamina but are still just harder versions of daydreaming with movement. Other practices are needed much more than forms to produce real fighting skills. Which Kung fu style, in its core, has more sparring and two person practices as opposed to:
1. Single person drills(techniques done in the air alone, throw set ups but not throws)

2. Techniques done with non-resisting people.

I would think that the kung fu equivalent of judo would be the best. The so called striking arts have too many forms and larking.

Which kung fucstyle do you all co sider to be the best for those that want real skills in a shorter period of time?

[Lucas]

sanshou/sanda methods with any style. shuai jiao. other than that i believe the methods will be dependant on the teacher not the style. so really it cant be just one 'style' will be best. but certain methods make the best

[TenTigers]

rather ask, "Which teachers/schools teach real fighting skills."

[Ben Gash]

Style makes no difference in this regard, it's about training. You can train any style realistically, you just need to understand how.

[TenTigers]

ah..Lucas beat me to it....



again.:mad:

[Lucas]

mmnaahh :p

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Style makes no difference in this regard, it's about training. You can train any style realistically, you just need to understand how.

Ben Gash has chi blasted the correct!!:D

[BakShaolinEC]

if you want real training. check out the hippy tai chi and kung fu schools. after an hour of jumping and dancing in a field they beat on a drum and chant songs.

[Lucas]

a bit of a derail, but i happened to make a passing comment without thinking at work that "I hate hippy tai chi" and my co workers asked, 'whats hippy tai chi?" so i explained briefly. non martial artists think that 'hippy tai chi' is what all taijiquan is...

[RWilson]

Style makes no difference in this regard, it's about training. You can train any style realistically, you just need to understand how.

I am calling bs on this statement. The reason is this: Learnibg a fighting method and learning a style are two different things. When a teacher starts teaching bug style or monkey style(imitating a real animal) then that is not fight training. San shao does not teach a style of movement. It teaches barebones fighting. The difference is that the style way focuses heavily on forms and if not forms than stylistic drills that try to make your body look like an animal when doing technique.

Let me rephrase the question. San shao cannot be an answer because it is modern.

Which tcma style has less of a focus on forms and more on conditioning and fighting? Ving tsun comes to mind but we all know that Ving chun people just do bs chi Sao foreplay before the gay sex begins drills. Check out the Gary Lam thread on the wc forum to see how rediculous chi Sao is.

Choy li fut can be good if it is trained more like kickboxing and less like...well doing 5 million of the same exact, but slightly different variation, form. And dropping that "internal" form they have would be good too.

IMO any short hand style that trains like wc is useless. Doing connected mantis hooking on a guy who is just chi saoing with you is retard level 1 training. Not advanced year 9 training. Does mantis hooking work in sparring? Maybe. But training it like a kickboxers, against kickboxers and with no forms, would be more beneficial.

Maybe we are all taking about the same thing. Training method instead of style but too often style is taught instead of good training methods. And for god's sake you do need clf's internal form or Ving tsun's third form to fight.

[Lucas]

shuai jiao and longfist will make a good fighter.

[BakShaolinEC]

alright lets put an end to this. Southern Praying Mantis is the end all of end all kung fu styles.

on a serious note on SPM:
I saw this style at tai chi legacy one year. the demo's of it were awful to watch, but i could see the moves. and when the guys sparred they did fairly well and they kept to their style. everything in the sparring floor looked the same except when the SPM guys got in there, and they won. didn't get gold, but they advanced pretty far.

[hskwarrior]

The reason is this: Learnibg a fighting method and learning a style are two different things. When a teacher starts teaching bug style or monkey style(imitating a real animal) then that is not fight training.

for some, they may act like a specific animal and all, but for others who know the real truth its not really about pretending to be an animal but rather absorb the essence of what a certain animal brings. for example, Tiger is about power, snake is about speed, and so forth. for me, just because im doing a tiger form doesn't mean i'm pretending to growl act like a tiger. it means i will apply my form with aggreesion, power, and speed.

only those who are square to martial arts and fighting would try to act like De Tigre.....


Choy li fut can be good if it is trained more like kickboxing and less like...well doing 5 million of the same exact, but slightly different variation, form. And dropping that "internal" form they have would be good too.

I highly doubt a "FORM" has anything to do with it. if people want to practice an internal forms its up to them. if they want to fight then they can focus on the things designed for combat. people that do forms actually get something out of it on a personal level, be it an animal form or internal. as long as you don't claim the form can teach you to levitate then its all faif and game for anyone who wants to give it a try.


Maybe we are all taking about the same thing. Training method instead of style but too often style is taught instead of good training methods. And for god's sake you do need clf's internal form or Ving tsun's third form to fight.

NO ONE has ever claimed TMK that "If your practice this form you will be a great fighter"......EVER. and if they have they should be shot. seriously.

But, as long as TCMA is around, FORMS will always be taught.

[ginosifu]

I am calling bs on this statement. The reason is this: Learnibg a fighting method and learning a style are two different things. When a teacher starts teaching bug style or monkey style(imitating a real animal) then that is not fight training. San shao does not teach a style of movement. It teaches barebones fighting. The difference is that the style way focuses heavily on forms and if not forms than stylistic drills that try to make your body look like an animal when doing technique.

Let me rephrase the question. San shao cannot be an answer because it is modern.

Which tcma style has less of a focus on forms and more on conditioning and fighting? Ving tsun comes to mind but we all know that Ving chun people just do bs chi Sao foreplay before the gay sex begins drills. Check out the Gary Lam thread on the wc forum to see how rediculous chi Sao is.

Choy li fut can be good if it is trained more like kickboxing and less like...well doing 5 million of the same exact, but slightly different variation, form. And dropping that "internal" form they have would be good too.

IMO any short hand style that trains like wc is useless. Doing connected mantis hooking on a guy who is just chi saoing with you is retard level 1 training. Not advanced year 9 training. Does mantis hooking work in sparring? Maybe. But training it like a kickboxers, against kickboxers and with no forms, would be more beneficial.

Maybe we are all taking about the same thing. Training method instead of style but too often style is taught instead of good training methods. And for god's sake you do need clf's internal form or Ving tsun's third form to fight.

???????????

I thought Ben Gash had the correct answer. What you are saying is kinda goofey. Any system or style or person can practice effective self defense training. It does not matter system or style which you chose. The teacher, how they teach... do they teach sparring, do they have resistance drills, do they teach Shuai Chiao or Grappling, do they teach San Shou or San Da.

You can learn any of the above from the right teacher. Wing Chun, Southern Mantis, Monkey Fist all can give good self defense. You would be considered ignorant if thought certain styles are no good for real self defense. There are certain teachers who do not possess the correct information about fighting and how to teach it, is what you have to worry about.

ginosifu

[wenshu]

I am calling bs on this statement. The reason is this: Learnibg a fighting method and learning a style are two different things. When a teacher starts teaching bug style or monkey style(imitating a real animal) then that is not fight training. San shao does not teach a style of movement. It teaches barebones fighting. The difference is that the style way focuses heavily on forms and if not forms than stylistic drills that try to make your body look like an animal when doing technique.

Let me rephrase the question. San shao cannot be an answer because it is modern.

Which tcma style has less of a focus on forms and more on conditioning and fighting? Ving tsun comes to mind but we all know that Ving chun people just do bs chi Sao foreplay before the gay sex begins drills. Check out the Gary Lam thread on the wc forum to see how rediculous chi Sao is.

Choy li fut can be good if it is trained more like kickboxing and less like...well doing 5 million of the same exact, but slightly different variation, form. And dropping that "internal" form they have would be good too.

IMO any short hand style that trains like wc is useless. Doing connected mantis hooking on a guy who is just chi saoing with you is retard level 1 training. Not advanced year 9 training. Does mantis hooking work in sparring? Maybe. But training it like a kickboxers, against kickboxers and with no forms, would be more beneficial.

Maybe we are all taking about the same thing. Training method instead of style but too often style is taught instead of good training methods. And for god's sake you do need clf's internal form or Ving tsun's third form to fight.

Thank god you finally showed up to fix kung fu.

[ShaolinDan]

RW,
Shuai jiao is the answer you are looking for. Also maybe banning based on that last post. ;)

[Dragonzbane76]

maybe this arguement is the same as, "what your TCMA is lacking one?" honestly if you are covering the three zones in your teaching and doing it in a realistic manner, you are on the right path. I do not promote that I know all the styles and what they contain, but a lot of them in the TCMA and many other MA's do not cover all the zones. Thats apparent on many levels with a basic overview of the curriculum.

[PalmStriker]

I am calling bs on this statement. The reason is this: Learnibg a fighting method and learning a style are two different things. When a teacher starts teaching bug style or monkey style(imitating a real animal) then that is not fight training. San shao does not teach a style of movement. It teaches barebones fighting. The difference is that the style way focuses heavily on forms and if not forms than stylistic drills that try to make your body look like an animal when doing technique.

Let me rephrase the question. San shao cannot be an answer because it is modern.

Which tcma style has less of a focus on forms and more on conditioning and fighting? Ving tsun comes to mind but we all know that Ving chun people just do bs chi Sao foreplay before the gay sex begins drills. Check out the Gary Lam thread on the wc forum to see how rediculous chi Sao is.

Choy li fut can be good if it is trained more like kickboxing and less like...well doing 5 million of the same exact, but slightly different variation, form. And dropping that "internal" form they have would be good too.

IMO any short hand style that trains like wc is useless. Doing connected mantis hooking on a guy who is just chi saoing with you is retard level 1 training. Not advanced year 9 training. Does mantis hooking work in sparring? Maybe. But training it like a kickboxers, against kickboxers and with no forms, would be more beneficial.

Maybe we are all taking about the same thing. Training method instead of style but too often style is taught instead of good training methods. And for god's sake you do need clf's internal form or Ving tsun's third form to fight.

So you think you could beat down a chimpanzee (in his prime) of lesser weight in a cage match with your real skills? Yes, no? After tearing you limb from limb he would bite your face off your lecturing head.

[KJW]

Personally I beleive that if you have a good instructor then the style is unimportant.

Once you have been studying under a decent instructor for a few years you come to realise that the form is secondary and that although you are an exponent of a particular style, you must adapt your art to the strengths and weaknesses inherant within yourself to make it an effective fighting method for you.

A good instructor and a worthy student will seek and share knowledge even if that knowledge falls outside the curriculum of the school or club to which they belong.

I have regular private lessons with one of the senior instructors at my club and we often talk about and experiment with techniques from a range of styles. If we think it looks like it might be effective then we'll try it and see if we can use it or if there are any weaknesses within the technique.

[Shaolin]

1. We can all agree that forms do not produce fighting skills.

2. Which kung fu style do you all consider to be the best for those that want real skills in a shorter period of time?

1. I don't agree.

2. There is no "best style". It's the individual that makes the "styles" effect or not effective.

Based on your statement I'm assuming you have little experience at all with any form of martial arts. My recommendation is to get proficient at one first. Do your research and pick one that suits your personal goals and mindset. After developing a solid base in one art start expanding your knowledge by training in other art forms.

[Robinhood]

WC will give you the most in the least time. But if you want to put gloves on take up boxing.

[LaterthanNever]

Shao-lin Do or Oom Young Do! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Ben Gash]

I am calling bs on this statement. The reason is this: Learnibg a fighting method and learning a style are two different things. Not if they're done right.

San shao does not teach a style of movement. It teaches barebones fighting. seriously, is there an award for most fallacious statement? Of course San Shou teaches a style of movement, just as boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ and wrestling do.


Which tcma style has less of a focus on forms and more on conditioning and fighting? Again, you don't understand your own question. This is a question about class structure, not style.

Choy li fut can be good if it is trained more like kickboxing and less like...well doing 5 million of the same exact, but slightly different variation, form. And dropping that "internal" form they have would be good too. Training like kickboxing? You mean padwork, live drills and sparring, such as you'll find at large numbers of CLF schools? Why get rid of the internal forms? Stretching and relaxation are important parts of a training regime.


IMO any short hand style that trains like wc is useless. Shorthand is fine as long as you understand the realities of hand fighting and attached striking, and train it realistically. Again, this is about training methodology, not style.


And for god's sake you do need clf's internal form to fight . I think you'd be pushed to find anyone who'd say you do.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

RW,

San Shou was developed from a mixture of boxing, Shuai Jiao/Wrestling, and traditional Kung Fu. I don't see what being modern has to do with it, and honestly, it's not all that modern. If I remember correctly it was developed during the cold war (shortly after WW2) by the Chinese military and various Chinese Kung Fu masters for militaristic purposes and was developed into the sport version in the 1960's. Considering a majority of "traditional" systems were developed the last hundred years, San Shou is not that "modern".

Regarding the animal techniques found in many Kung Fu styles, many I find eccentric and not that applicable so in some regards you make a point. That being said, mantis hooks as I was taught grab, pull, and hook the back of the head, very similiar to the plum in Muay Thai. Tiger Claws are strikes (with palm) followed by ripping with the focus being on finger strenght and bone conditioning, and are best suited from clinch and control.

There are many more I find applicable and some that I don't. But it is unwise to dismiss all things you think are irrelevant because the training you received was inadequate or "lacking". (I just channeled my inner HW108:eek:)

I teach San Shou at my gym, and the way we train is very similar to how my teacher taught us. Training methods will always be what makes a style applicable, so you are right that those who only do forms and punch air all day probably suck and can't fight. But than again, from my school of thought those doing so are not what I consider traditional Kung Fu.

One more point, San Shou can be taught as a style but it is moreso a venue for Kung Fu practioners and other martial artists to test their skills in a full contact environment. There are plenty of Kung Fu peeps who train and compete in San Shou and also do forms and other practices not up to your "high" standard.

[Lucas]

(I just channeled my inner HW108:eek:)

You must never speak of this again.

[rett]

So you think you could beat down a chimpanzee (in his prime) of lesser weight in a cage match with your real skills? Yes, no? After tearing you limb from limb he would bite your face off your lecturing head.

This must be why humans early on banded together into groups and used weapons and language to fight in a coordinated way. And above all, a lone human (with enough sense to have a chance of reproducing) would never go into a confined space with an animal. If I remember right from tv, Masaai know how close they can go to lions before triggering an attack. Brains are much more decisive than brawn. I mean, the chimp would be just as chanceless in a televised debate format.

[Dragonzbane76]

as someone posted in another thread, "skill will trump brawn most times."

[RWilson]

as someone posted in another thread, "skill will trump brawn most times."

Size and strength are a huge factor which explains weight classes in combat sport competitions.

[RWilson]

Not if they're done right.
seriously, is there an award for most fallacious statement? Of course San Shou teaches a style of movement, just as boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ and wrestling do.

Again, you don't understand your own question. This is a question about class structure, not style.
Training like kickboxing? You mean padwork, live drills and sparring, such as you'll find at large numbers of CLF schools? Why get rid of the internal forms? Stretching and relaxation are important parts of a training regime.

Shorthand is fine as long as you understand the realities of hand fighting and attached striking, and train it realistically. Again, this is about training methodology, not style.

I think you'd be pushed to find anyone who'd say you do.



I was talking specifically about shaolin animal movement. The movement taught in wrestling is efficient and has purpose. They do not pose in tiger formation.


It was stated by that mantis hooks are for grabbing. So does that mean that everyone who has not studied mantis cannot grab? I think you understand this point. Ponder it while I practice my mantis hooks so I can pick up the tree I just cut down in my backyard. I probably would have just stared down dumbly at all the branches had it not been for the invention of mantis hooks.

[rett]

Size and strength are a huge factor which explains weight classes in combat sport competitions.

Meanwhile the promoter of the event is raking in the cash and doesn't risk injury.;)

[Drake]

I was talking specifically about shaolin animal movement. The movement taught in wrestling is efficient and has purpose. They do not pose in tiger formation.


It was stated by that mantis hooks are for grabbing. So does that mean that everyone who has not studied mantis cannot grab? I think you understand this point. Ponder it while I practice my mantis hooks so I can pick up the tree I just cut down in my backyard. I probably would have just stared down dumbly at all the branches had it not been for the invention of mantis hooks.

Who poses?
I have to agree with the others. It seems like you have a rudimentary understanding of martial arts, and you are just running with it, laying down whatever preconceived notions you can dig up. You really need to get some experience before commenting like this, because it's embarassing.

[rett]

When I asked my teacher about this animal question he explained that the animal movements are using animals as a kind of model or metaphor for teaching effective human movements or mental attitudes. It's not about just posing or empty performing. Of course the modern wushu animal forms can often be just performace oriented, but that is just a circus act, IMO. You have to look to the real stuff.


Ponder it while I practice my mantis hooks so I can pick up the tree I just cut down in my backyard.

Anyone can intuitively grab with their opposing thumb, but most people won't instinctively hook while keeping their thumb together with their fingers. The latter is a very useful tool.

[Dragonzbane76]

Size and strength are a huge factor which explains weight classes in combat sport competitions.

No one said it was not a factor in the equation. But skill still has a mastery over it. If your looking for examples look to the early ufc were there was no weight classes. Keith hackney fights come to mind or Fedor's fights, I'm sure I could dig up a lot more where skill won instead of power.

[Shaolin]

Size and strength are a huge factor which explains weight classes in combat sport competitions.

Size and strength are more of a factor against someone with poor skill sets. I personally walk at 190lbs, fight 170lbs and 98% of the time am paired up with the heavies for training and sparring. They usually have the problem with me because of my speed and skill, even on the ground. I may get tossed around but rarely tapped by bigger partners. They're just too slow and have a tendency to try use that strength advantage but it just tires them faster. a good technical fighter will beat size and strength a majority of the time.

[Drake]

Size and strength are more of a factor against someone with poor skill sets. I personally walk at 190lbs, fight 170lbs and 98% of the time am paired up with the heavies for training and sparring. They usually have the problem with me because of my speed and skill, even on the ground. I may get tossed around but rarely tapped by bigger partners. They're just too slow and have a tendency to try use that strength advantage but it just tires them faster. a good technical fighter will beat size and strength a majority of the time.

It applies to the ground as well. I lost to a guy that barely came up to my shoulders, but he was very experienced... wrapped me up like a pretzel.

[RWilson]

Who poses?
I have to agree with the others. It seems like you have a rudimentary understanding of martial arts, and you are just running with it, laying down whatever preconceived notions you can dig up. You really need to get some experience before commenting like this, because it's embarassing.

Practicing animals is rudimentary. Should I practice circling my right arm and thn pushing forward while pushing with my left hand into a bow and arrow? That is the tiger movement. A technique for this is pulling a guy's punch while joint locking his elbow and then pushing him away. This would never work. I have studied tcma for a long time. Too long.

[hskwarrior]

Practicing animals is rudimentary. Should I practice circling my right arm and thn pushing forward while pushing with my left hand into a bow and arrow? That is the tiger movement. A technique for this is pulling a guy's punch while joint locking his elbow and then pushing him away. This would never work. I have studied tcma for a long time. Too long.

I think you can't get passed the notion that gung fu uses ANIMALS to describe certain mind sets and approaches.

and another funny thing is MMA training uses animals names for what they do as well. LMAO

[Drake]

Practicing animals is rudimentary. Should I practice circling my right arm and thn pushing forward while pushing with my left hand into a bow and arrow? That is the tiger movement. A technique for this is pulling a guy's punch while joint locking his elbow and then pushing him away. This would never work. I have studied tcma for a long time. Too long.

What TCMA have you studied? Because from the sound of it, it's nothing I've ever seen or heard of.

[ginosifu]

Practicing animals is rudimentary. Should I practice circling my right arm and thn pushing forward while pushing with my left hand into a bow and arrow? That is the tiger movement. A technique for this is pulling a guy's punch while joint locking his elbow and then pushing him away. This would never work. I have studied tcma for a long time. Too long.

You may have studied some TCMA but your thought process is all wrong. Or your ability to type your thoughts out on computer is bad. Either way your sense of what is TCMA, is a bit different than most of the rest of us TCMAers here on the forum.

ginosifu

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Practicing animals is rudimentary. Should I practice circling my right arm and thn pushing forward while pushing with my left hand into a bow and arrow? That is the tiger movement. A technique for this is pulling a guy's punch while joint locking his elbow and then pushing him away. This would never work. I have studied tcma for a long time. Too long.

Hey Bra, u mad Bra??

[Lucas]

Hey Bra, u mad Bra??

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_hqrJ_kn6c18/R6OD4xsUrvI/AAAAAAAABi0/ZOno3rc2SsY/s400/tyra-banks-burn-bra-4.jpg

[Faruq]

We can all agree that forms do not produce fighting skills. Co diyioning forms help with strength, power, stamina but are still just harder versions of daydreaming with movement. Other practices are needed much more than forms to produce real fighting skills. Which Kung fu style, in its core, has more sparring and two person practices as opposed to:
1. Single person drills(techniques done in the air alone, throw set ups but not throws)

2. Techniques done with non-resisting people.

I would think that the kung fu equivalent of judo would be the best. The so called striking arts have too many forms and larking.

Which kung fucstyle do you all co sider to be the best for those that want real skills in a shorter period of time?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY0u0F5LPyQ

[TenTigers]

Practicing animals is rudimentary. Should I practice circling my right arm and thn pushing forward while pushing with my left hand into a bow and arrow? That is the tiger movement. A technique for this is pulling a guy's punch while joint locking his elbow and then pushing him away. This would never work. I have studied tcma for a long time. Too long.
that may be your Tiger's movement, and your understanding of application.
Nothing I have ever done, nor seen done by anyone.
I don't know where you may have learned this, but it would seem that you might not have been your teachers most gifted pupil....
:rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

MMA:


The Caterpillar Crawl
The Mule Kick
Alligator Push-ups
The Bear Crawl
The Crab Walk
Elephants



TCMA: Typical southern 5 animals


Tiger
Dragon
Snake
Panther
Crane



GET OVER THE ANIMAL ISSUE ALREADY!!!!!!!!!! :D

[YouKnowWho]

Practicing animals is rudimentary. Should I practice circling my right arm and thn pushing forward while pushing with my left hand into a bow and arrow? That is the tiger movement. A technique for this is pulling a guy's punch while joint locking his elbow and then pushing him away. This would never work. I have studied tcma for a long time. Too long.

Even MT guys use "mantis arms - hand hook behind opponent's neck, arm press on the chest" in the clinching situation.

[TenTigers]

It's a pretty simple concept; the thing about the mantis hook is that while you may grab, by not using your thumb to grip with, you are not, "married" to the person and may easily release the grip to follow the strike home (as in following a jab), or apply the thumb for a more committed control.

[Jimbo]

Muay Thai has many movements that are named after the characteristics of animals.

[hskwarrior]

like their elephant.......LOVE IT.

[Dragonzbane76]

GET OVER THE ANIMAL ISSUE ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!
__________________

I"M NOT ON IT NOR HAVE I EVER BEEN.....:p

[RWilson]

Muay Thai has many movements that are named after the characteristics of animals.

When Kung fu people start winning using their "animals" in recorded fighting competitions then we will all finally breathe a sigh of relief. The Kung fu can finally fight and there will be no more debate. When Kung fu people start channeling their inner vaginas...I mean tigers in RECORDED competitions than we can all stop debating. Not death matches from pre-communist China or push hands competitions.

The "I did not have a camera when I was fighting" argument is the worst. That is really the weakness of all these arguments for how awesome Kung fu is.

You do not need mantis hooks to grab an arm. You do not need to do a tiger form to learn power. You do have to do those things if you just want to do forms and have no interest in fighting.

[bawang]

i cant believe no one figured out after 10 years on this forums.

animal means lack of remorse or conscience. predator. this is the spirit of animal styles.

[Drake]

When Kung fu people start winning using their "animals" in recorded fighting competitions then we will all finally breathe a sigh of relief. The Kung fu can finally fight and there will be no more debate. When Kung fu people start channeling their inner vaginas...I mean tigers in RECORDED competitions than we can all stop debating. Not death matches from pre-communist China or push hands competitions.

The "I did not have a camera when I was fighting" argument is the worst. That is really the weakness of all these arguments for how awesome Kung fu is.

You do not need mantis hooks to grab an arm. You do not need to do a tiger form to learn power. You do have to do those things if you just want to do forms and have no interest in fighting.

Sorry I don't carry a camera with me everywhere I go. I'll try harder in the future to prove myself to you. :rolleyes:

You don't get it, and I think we've all figured that out.

[RWilson]

Sorry I don't carry a camera with me everywhere I go. I'll try harder in the future to prove myself to you. :rolleyes:

You don't get it, and I think we've all figured that out.

You do not have to prove anything to me because you do not own a school. If you did and I was a prospective student then you would need skills. This is not about you personally. This is about Kung fu.

If modern Kung fu training was so good would not the U.S military have adopted it for the soldier?

[Punch.HeadButt]

If modern Kung fu training was so good

As everyone has been saying, the vast majority of modern kung fu training methodologies leaves something to be desired. You are not talking about styles, you're talking about how they're trained. And as has been said a dozen times in this thread, how a style is trained will determine its effectiveness.

You seem to have trouble getting over that hump between WHAT is being trained and HOW it is being trained. Which is fine, but you seem to be arguing from an ill-informed position.

$0.02.

[Drake]

You do not have to prove anything to me because you do not own a school. If you did and I was a prospective student then you would need skills. This is not about you personally. This is about Kung fu.

If modern Kung fu training was so good would not the U.S military have adopted it for the soldier?

Problem with TCMA is that it isn't applicable to our scenarios. For example, I wear a solid 20lbs of body armor, 6 magazines with 30 rounds in each mag, a med kit, side plates, helmet, boots, elbow and knee pads, and have a rifle. I can't do most of what TCMA is built around, because I'm a turtle, basically. You can't throw kicks because of the groin protector and the IBA, your striking is limited due your waist momentum being largely lost, and you have a ton of gear strapped to yourself. And with a radio... you are REALLY limited. THAT'S why.

Before 9/11, yes, we learned a decent amount of kung-fu as part of our self-defense. And for a while, TKD was mandated in Korea by the CG there. That was before we had all this crap on our bodies.

[-N-]

MMA:


The Caterpillar Crawl
The Mule Kick
Alligator Push-ups
The Bear Crawl
The Crab Walk
Elephants



TCMA: Typical southern 5 animals


Tiger
Dragon
Snake
Panther
Crane



GET OVER THE ANIMAL ISSUE ALREADY!!!!!!!!!! :D
KF needs to train shrimp style so we can escape when every fight goes to the ground.

[hskwarrior]

yeah that and:



Butterfly guard

Fish-hooking

[PalmStriker]

i cant believe no one figured out after 10 years on this forums.

animal means lack of remorse or conscience. predator. this is the spirit of animal styles.
That's what you're here for, Ancient TCMA understanding. ExtremeChinese a plus! :D

[rett]

If modern Kung fu training was so good would not the U.S military have adopted it for the soldier?

No. It takes too long to learn. The military likes solutions that are quick to teach, for obvious reasons. (edit: oh, and also what Drake said)

[rett]

You do not need mantis hooks to grab an arm.

If you control an arm with a hook you have the flexibility to pop up into a strike without having to disentangle your thumb, plus you don't risk spraining your thumb as much. It's flexible. Just call it a hook and forget the animal name. It's a good move, but it's not intuitive. It has to be learned.

[RWilson]

If you control an arm with a hook you have the flexibility to pop up into a strike without having to disentangle your thumb, plus you don't risk spraining your thumb as much. It's flexible. Just call it a hook and forget the animal name. It's a good move, but it's not intuitive. It has to be learned.

I understand but mantis did not invent that. After picking up the tree(with my mantis hooks) that I cut down my neighbor started talking to me. How convenient for him to make contact AFTER I was done working. We were talking over my fence and we both had our hands over the fence leaning on it. Our wrists were bent hooking the fence and the thumbs were not intertwined with the bar. Wow! We were mantis hooking my fence! It is intuitive. It is not special or necessarily effective. But as you can see we were both hooking and he has never done the deadly Kung fu.

[rett]

I understand but mantis did not invent that. ... We were mantis hooking my fence! It is intuitive.

It's not intuitive to use it as part of an approach to fighting. It needs to be practised. And the point of a fighting approach is not that it invented every bodily posture, just that it sews them together into... an approach.

[Lucas]

wow since your neighbor, and everyone else, can move their arms and legs and throw shatty punches and weak kicks and tackle like a 4 year old they must all be world champion fighters. Just because the body may instinctively do certain things and make certain shapes under certain circumstances has no bearing whether an individual is going to be able to instinctively utilize well defined combat methods 'just cuz' their body might make an abstract movement under completely unrelated scenario


Ddduuuhhhhh

[Dale Dugas]

why engage this net ghost.

He already knows how to do everything as from his posts.

Let him open a school and teach.

oh yeah, he is full of crap.

The mouth boxers have to bring their A game.

Epic Fail, net ghost.

[TenTigers]

i cant believe no one figured out after 10 years on this forums.

animal means lack of remorse or conscience. predator. this is the spirit of animal styles.
right-to.. each animal has a different spirit/emotion/mindset associated with it, cold-blooded, cunning, maniacal, etc..and we've had discussions on that in other threads, but...
it's like trying to teach pigs to sing.
One, it's a waste of time,
and Two, it annoys the pigs.

[taai gihk yahn]

I have studied tcma for a long time. Too long.
so, u r basically returning the jacket for spite (http://dailyseinfeld.tumblr.com/post/619611458)?

[Yum Cha]

it's like trying to teach pigs to sing.
One, it's a waste of time,
and Two, it annoys the pigs.

Ten outta Ten to Ten.

[mjw]

Though Wing Chun works for me and it is what I do now I would say one would want a style with long and short bridge plus grappling with a good teacher who teaches realistic fighting and it is practiced in a realistic mannor while also working on conditioning etc.

There is also developmental and application so are we looking for instant results?
Some styles/ teaching methods have longer learning curves than others and some have better end results within less time where as some may give you a better final product though it may take longer to make......

[PalmStriker]

The best Kungfu is from China. (MMABJJ movies are Boooooring!!!!) If it works, it works: :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li4d-umafG4&feature=related

[PalmStriker]

Not to mention, MMA is just a stolen ramshackle arrangement of techniques from original TMA styles. No magic there. :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU43ZmGZpGk&feature=related

[Yao Sing]

See, this is why I no longer bother participating in the forums. Call it a 'half-grab' and it's ok but call it a 'mantis hook' and suddenly it stops working? Give me a break. 'Pre-arranged drills' are ok but 'forms' will suck the skill from your body?

And 5 pages are spent trying to enlighten a dummy that doesn't to hear the truth.

I've seen the 'headkicks are useless you'll just get taken down easier' (ask Mirko Crocop if they work), 'eye gouges don't work and you'll just **** the guy off and he'll break your arm' (can't find the reference but I watched a UFC fight that was stopped because of unintentional eye-pokes, fighter had a hand injury and poked when he jabbed), swinging punches don't work (Chuck Lidell taught the swinging overhand right when he was a coach on TUF).

Then after all the TCMA bashing you see MMA guys amazed at the flexability of BJ Penn in his takedown defense and it's no better than what you can find in almost any Karate/Kung Fu school. Machida gets props for using basic Karate in the UFC. Karo Parisian successfully applies throws I learned as a yellow belt in Kenpo.

So you want to know what Kung Fu styles teach real fighting and don't rely on a bunch of forms then look at the styles that were taught hundeds of years ago in China and Japan when their lives depended on their skills. It only got forms crazy in the modern days of lawsuits and gullable gwai lo. And 'twin dragons to eyes' hurts just as much as an open hand jab.

Ok, I've got a used soapbox for sale. Anyone?

[mjw]

^^^^
We have Chung Le as the last hope lol