What REAL Xingyiquan looks like:

[donjitsu2]

Here's a quote from Xingyi Master Di Gouyong when asked about the criticism that Kung Fu stylists "...lose the characteristics of their [respective] style(s)" during actual fights or fight training:


The techniques aren’t just the movements but the power that is used to do the techniques.

You need to train how to apply them so you can exert the correct type of power without being bound by the model.

As long as you do something that uses the right power, it is Xing Yi Quan. It doesn’t have to look like the perfect form of a specific technique

thought I'd share...



Train Hard,
Josh Skinner

[Juan Alvarez]

Going beyond the movements to understand the principle and application.

Excellent comment. Thank you for sharing.

[Mike Patterson]

Here's a quote from Xingyi Master Di Gouyong when asked about the criticism that Kung Fu stylists "...lose the characteristics of their [respective] style(s)" during actual fights or fight training:



thought I'd share...



Train Hard,
Josh Skinner


Gee. Where have I heard THAT before? :confused:

Pay attention y'all. See? I'm not the ONLY no knowledge "internalist" that purveys such tripe! :)

[taai gihk yahn]

bullocks, ALL of it - clearly, NONE of u have experienced / understood / brushed furtively yet innocently up against in the fresh produce section da r3alz internalz

(and this "Patterson" character - how do we know he even really exists at all? mighty suspicious and queer dealings I says...)

[Scott R. Brown]

I have heard that some people enjoy the taste of tripe!

[YouKnowWho]

Power is only 1/5 of the equation. There are timing, opportunity, angle, and balance as well.

[spiralstair]

Isn't that the taste of trite?

[taai gihk yahn]

Power is only 1/5 of the equation. There are timing, opportunity, angle, and balance as well.

amongst John's weaponry, are such diverse elements as power, timing, opportunity, angle, balance and nice puffy uniforms...

[RWilson]

Here's a quote from Xingyi Master Di Gouyong when asked about the criticism that Kung Fu stylists "...lose the characteristics of their [respective] style(s)" during actual fights or fight training:



thought I'd share...



Train Hard,
Josh Skinner

I agree 100% with Josh and Mike Patterson.

Since the pinches of boxing are similar in power generation to hsing I 5 elements....would you guys consider sport boxing to be hsing I? I am very interested in the answer to this question.

[taai gihk yahn]

ISince the pinches of boxing are similar in power generation to hsing I 5 elements....
of course, in boxing u can't apply the pinches in quite the same way that you would in hsing i because of the gloves...

[RWilson]

of course, in boxing u can't apply the pinches in quite the same way that you would in hsing i because of the gloves...

Application is in the mind of the beholder and is spontaneous. No two fighters look exactly the same.

That being said...I was asking from a power generation point of view.

[taai gihk yahn]

Application is in the mind of the beholder and is spontaneous. No two fighters look exactly the same.

That being said...I was asking from a power generation point of view.

I think that you missed the point of my humor...

[RWilson]

I think that you missed the point of my humor...

I guess I did.

Is boxing the modern version of the 5 elements, hsing I gents?

[rett]

I guess I did.

Is boxing the modern version of the 5 elements, hsing I gents?

Of course not. The boxing gloves are big, which means they can't fit through the same narrow spaces. And the contact surface is completely different, meaning you can't match the fist to the target point. Two different games.

[Dale Dugas]

Rett,

this person is nothing more than a troll/net ghost/cowardly mouth boxer who posts on and on about having all these skills but still hides behind the net as he would be called out on his BS, and we all would realize this person is not all they claimed to be.

[YouKnowWho]

The boxing gloves are big, which means they can't fit through the same narrow spaces. And the contact surface is completely different, meaning you can't match the fist to the target point. Two different games.
Agree! If you put boxing gloves on a mantis guy, that mantis guy will fight just like a boxer. The XY "Pi Quan" and the LH mantis "catch grasshopper" are very similiar.

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/7963/piquan1.jpg

The XY Pi Quan is also called 劈抓(Pi Zhua). Not only you need to strike your palm out, you also need to grab your hand back. Only if you can grab it back, you can't call it Pi Quan because it has a circular motion. If your Pi Quan can only strike forward but not grab back, you can't use it to hit anybody.

The 劈抓(Pi Zhua) is like a small circle followed by a big circle. That big circle then turns into a small circle, and that small circle then turns into a big circle. It continues like this and never terminate. It's like a Pi Quan after another Pi Quan (similiar to WC "chain punches"). When your opponent blocks your Pi Quan, you grab his arm, pull his arm, and then give him another Pi Quan. Why do you want to grab? When you pull your opponent into your striking, he is not going anywhere, you can cause a "head on collusion".

With boxing gloves, you may still use fist instead of palm strike. But it's hard to grab your opponent's arm back, The XingYi system has different application than boxing (besides power generation).

[RWilson]

Boxing can be done without gloves just as hsing I can be done with gloves.

[Matthew]

Boxing can be done without gloves just as hsing I can be done with gloves.

I've seen some Xing Yi, all looked like pretty direct striking. It really seemed to also rely on hands/wrists as close as possible.

I practiced southern style for around 4 years, the hand movements required forearms to be nearly rubbing against each other for many reasons- counter grappling against forearm or arm grabs, economy of motion in movements, directness in attacking to prevent opponent from having adequate reaction time, etc.

At the school, I did light sparring frequently and medium/contact sparring with the 8 or 10 ounce gloves about once a week. This for me included people of varying styles and training methods. kickboxing/ 'MMA', Karate, among others

I once put on the larger boxing style gloves to box around with a close friend who did boxing so that he didn't feel akward in case he knocked me out and to prevent damage to me that he was worried about. I agreed I would use no kicking or leg techniques to prevent injury to him (due to my small-medium frame, kicking and leg technique is my strongest suit in sparring). The first thing I noticed was how badly the larger boxing gloves impeded my ability to spar (or fight as boxers take it). I would continually brush one against the other and slow myself down for a half-second long enough to miss opportunity. Also the fact that they have greater weight distracted my relaxation.

Of course relaxation can be trained off, and I'm sure if I used them regularly in sparring I could adapt... But the adaptation I already made to use the smaller 8-10 oz gloves was as much as I would ever want to do before my techniques would have lost practicality in street defense. The balance in skill gained in sparring Vs. adaptation is too high toward adaptation. There is a clear point where you are changing methods too drastically to benefit. I might have well become a boxer if that were my interest.

That being said, In the way that 8-10 oz gloves are my limit of adaptation for sparring , xing-yi people would likely be the same if not less able to adapt with gloves at all.

This also borders on the topic that the MMA guys on this forum love to talk about- that UFC and America's MMA outlets are the standard for measuring combat ability. From all the Chinese Martial Artists I've met- I've only seen that sparring methods, grappling, chi sau, push hands, etc have highly defined differentiation from actual combat (whereas MMA, Kickboxers, Muay Thai, Japanese Arts, and others usually do not differentiate). MMA Fans more and more are equating MMA with combat ability (street fight/self defense/survival skill/ whatever you want to call it). In fact, I had one teacher who studied various southern styles and qigongs for around 30 years who stopped contact sparring after about 6 or 8 years because the habits he was developing were not conducive to street self defense skills. (where fighting more than one person is often the norm, fighting vs. weapons or mock-weapons, fighting to maim or subdue vs. to tap out/exchange blows)

Also certain techniques cannot be performed in full contact MMA rules such as pulling the head at the neck joint (controlling head to control body) with risk of accidentally hitting eyes, striking throat, vitals, etc. I can elaborate further on the 'bad' habits that MMA Full contact fighting can develop if one is to use it for street fighting. I would also be interested in starting a post about the "bad" habits full contact fighting venues like MMA and treating full contact-sparring-like-combat can form in the eyes of self defense.

Interestingly enough- I feel Japanese arts such as judo, jiu jitsu, and (some) karate schools treat their sparring as if it were fighting (street) which can also develop bad street-defense habits. This is likely why Jiu Jitsu/Judo are more readily adaptable and compatible with the MMA Format in the west. (Aside from the fact that UFC was started by jiujitsu lovers.)

[rett]

Dale, thx for the heads up.

[RWilson]

I've seen some Xing Yi, all looked like pretty direct striking. It really seemed to also rely on hands/wrists as close as possible.

I practiced southern style for around 4 years, the hand movements required forearms to be nearly rubbing against each other for many reasons- counter grappling against forearm or arm grabs, economy of motion in movements, directness in attacking to prevent opponent from having adequate reaction time, etc.

At the school, I did light sparring frequently and medium/contact sparring with the 8 or 10 ounce gloves about once a week. This for me included people of varying styles and training methods. kickboxing/ 'MMA', Karate, among others

I once put on the larger boxing style gloves to box around with a close friend who did boxing so that he didn't feel akward in case he knocked me out and to prevent damage to me that he was worried about. I agreed I would use no kicking or leg techniques to prevent injury to him (due to my small-medium frame, kicking and leg technique is my strongest suit in sparring). The first thing I noticed was how badly the larger boxing gloves impeded my ability to spar (or fight as boxers take it). I would continually brush one against the other and slow myself down for a half-second long enough to miss opportunity. Also the fact that they have greater weight distracted my relaxation.

Of course relaxation can be trained off, and I'm sure if I used them regularly in sparring I could adapt... But the adaptation I already made to use the smaller 8-10 oz gloves was as much as I would ever want to do before my techniques would have lost practicality in street defense. The balance in skill gained in sparring Vs. adaptation is too high toward adaptation. There is a clear point where you are changing methods too drastically to benefit. I might have well become a boxer if that were my interest.

That being said, In the way that 8-10 oz gloves are my limit of adaptation for sparring , xing-yi people would likely be the same if not less able to adapt with gloves at all.

This also borders on the topic that the MMA guys on this forum love to talk about- that UFC and America's MMA outlets are the standard for measuring combat ability. From all the Chinese Martial Artists I've met- I've only seen that sparring methods, grappling, chi sau, push hands, etc have highly defined differentiation from actual combat (whereas MMA, Kickboxers, Muay Thai, Japanese Arts, and others usually do not differentiate). MMA Fans more and more are equating MMA with combat ability (street fight/self defense/survival skill/ whatever you want to call it). In fact, I had one teacher who studied various southern styles and qigongs for around 30 years who stopped contact sparring after about 6 or 8 years because the habits he was developing were not conducive to street self defense skills. (where fighting more than one person is often the norm, fighting vs. weapons or mock-weapons, fighting to maim or subdue vs. to tap out/exchange blows)

Also certain techniques cannot be performed in full contact MMA rules such as pulling the head at the neck joint (controlling head to control body) with risk of accidentally hitting eyes, striking throat, vitals, etc. I can elaborate further on the 'bad' habits that MMA Full contact fighting can develop if one is to use it for street fighting. I would also be interested in starting a post about the "bad" habits full contact fighting venues like MMA and treating full contact-sparring-like-combat can form in the eyes of self defense.

Interestingly enough- I feel Japanese arts such as judo, jiu jitsu, and (some) karate schools treat their sparring as if it were fighting (street) which can also develop bad street-defense habits. This is likely why Jiu Jitsu/Judo are more readily adaptable and compatible with the MMA Format in the west. (Aside from the fact that UFC was started by jiujitsu lovers.)

This argument is outdated. Even Kung fu people would agree with me that no style is too deadly to spar. If you do not spar using hsing I you will not be able to fight with it. Just doing pi Chuan in the air will not give you the spontaneity needed to do all those deadly illegal techniques.

[PalmStriker]

Are you certain? :confused: Your statement has mysterious leanings.

[phoenixdog]

This is an interesting subject. The similarity between hsing yi and western boxing is in the use of "whole body power". They both emphasize this over all other fighting arts. They also prefer striking with the fist, but as you can see in any top championship boxing, the arms in concert with the body come into full play while standing up. The actual techniques to accomplish this, however, are completely different. Di Lao Shir also said "in practice, follow all the rules, in fighting, break all the rules".

[mooyingmantis]

Agree! If you put boxing gloves on a mantis guy, that mantis guy will fight just like a boxer.

With boxing gloves, you may still use fist instead of palm strike. But it's hard to grab your opponent's arm back...

Agreed!

Many mantis combinations can be effectively practiced while wearing boxing gloves. However, many others cannot. I prefer to use the whole repertoire of mantis techniques. So my students fight in lighter, fingerless gloves. Since I believe "you fight like you train", I don't want students only practicing a part of the art against non-compliant opponents.

[Faruq]

Here's a quote from Xingyi Master Di Gouyong when asked about the criticism that Kung Fu stylists "...lose the characteristics of their [respective] style(s)" during actual fights or fight training:



thought I'd share...



Train Hard,
Josh Skinner

Do you have any clips of him fighting?

[Yoshiyahu]

Most TCMA can not fight like they Train!

Bruce Lee made a great qoute...


Train Like your in a fight, Fight like your training!!!


Hmmmm something to ponder!!!


But yes If you train power generation in certain structure and you loose that structure when the fight begins are you really doing XingYi, Choy Li Fut, Tai Chi Chaun, Baguazhang, or Hung Gar.


If your Style or brand of Kung Fu is not able to stand up to structure of a boxer or non-TCMA guy why learn the entire system?

If you want to add power why not just take some of techniques instead of the whole system an use what work best with boxing, muay thai or what ever style of fighting you deem able to use with out loosing your structure!


Some people can fight in a hung gar and tai chi stances...But thats because they sparred non-TCMA guys as well as people from other systems using purely their style with out deviation. Win loose or draw you gain experience and knowledge on how to use your style!


Today people arent doing that...Once the blows start coming they quickly revert to a kickboxer look!!!!


Example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk-HDP8B6F8 Atleast he is honest in saying he has just started trying to use the methods of his art...but he hasn't been able to master it yet!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGBcH6KY05E he looks strong and has good aggression and good strikes...But the structure of xingyi is not there...what is lost is the knowledge how to transition from each horse, stance or how to use the xing yi footwork in actual fighting...Also he needs to learn to bridge the gap. Stop the opponent from moving around and in and out. He needs to attack and put pressure on. instead of waiting for his opponent to move!

[YouKnowWho]

Most TCMA can not fight like they Train!

Bruce Lee made a great qoute...

Train Like your in a fight, Fight like your training!!!

Hmmmm something to ponder!!!
Please notice that Bruce Lee died in very young age.

Many TCMA training is to make yourself strong, and not to kill your opponent. For example, some ZZ (posture training) may have indirect relation to combat but not direct.

Always think about yourself as if your opponent doesn't exist is not good. Always think about how to kill your opponent without thinking about your own health is also not good. How to balance it is an art.

[Yoshiyahu]

Please notice that Bruce Lee died in very young age.

Many TCMA training is to make yourself strong, and not to kill your opponent. For example, some ZZ (posture training) may have indirect relation to combat but not direct.

Always think about yourself as if your opponent doesn't exist is not good. Always think about how to kill your opponent without thinking about your own health is also not good. How to balance it is an art.

Where Did bruce lee say practice to always kill people...in a life or death situtation yes...when you spar, compete, or test your skills with friends why does one have to think kill kill?

I usually agree with you but on this one you lost me???

If posture training doesn't directly relate to combat why practice it...its useless. The posture is teaching you how to generate power and move into each technique...if you can do while fighting why practice it all. practice a art that you can actually directly take into fighting...like boxing movements, muay thai movements, BJJ movements...

There the transistions from each step is directly applied in fighting...no need to mirror another style...the footwork in training is exactly the same in fighting is it not????

[YouKnowWho]

Where Did bruce lee say practice to always kill people...in a life or death situtation yes...when you spar, compete, or test your skills with friends why does one have to think kill kill?

I usually agree with you but on this one you lost me???

If posture training doesn't directly relate to combat why practice it...its useless. The posture is teaching you how to generate power and move into each technique...if you can do while fighting why practice it all. practice a art that you can actually directly take into fighting...like boxing movements, muay thai movements, BJJ movements...

There the transistions from each step is directly applied in fighting...no need to mirror another style...the footwork in training is exactly the same in fighting is it not????
Old Chinese saying said, "太极十年不出门,形意一年打死人 - After 10 years of Taiji training, you may still not ready to fight. After 1 year of XingYi training, you may be able to kill someone." Many people train XingYi just to be able to kill their opponents soon. They didn't realize with that kind of thinking in mind, they may kill themselves before they kill others. I borrow the word "kill" from that saying without changing it.

Certain posture training is also called as "13 Tai Bao". The word "Tai Bao" is prince's teacher. The priince's teacher can educate a prince to be a good future emperior. But the prince's teacher does not have any power. The posture training can "enhance" your TCMA ability. But it's not combat skill by itself.

Some TCMA such as the XingYi system, the "training method" is different from the "combat application". When you

- train XingYi, you use your body to push your shoulder, your shoulder to push elbow, your elbow to push hand.
- use XingYi in combat, you send out your hand like a whip. You then use your elbow to chase your hand, shoulder to chase your elbow, body to chase your shoulder.

For example, when you

- train Pi Chuan, Your body push from behind like to push a mountain, inch by inch, the harder the better. It's easy to develop your power this way.
- use Pi Chuan in combat, your Pi Chuan should act like axe chop wood and move like a whip. The faster the better.

Now the question is why does the "training method" different from the "combat application"? The simple answer is in training, you want to develop maximum power. In combat, you want to achieve maximum speed.

[Yoshiyahu]

True that i feel you on that....so how does one end up killing themselves by learning how to kill in a year!!!




Old Chinese saying said, "太极十年不出门,形意一年打死人 - After 10 years of Taiji training, you may still not ready to fight. After 1 year of XingYi training, you may be able to kill someone." Many people train XingYi just to be able to kill their opponents soon. They didn't realize with that kind of thinking in mind, they may kill themselves before they kill others. I borrow the word "kill" from that saying without changing it.

Certain posture training is also called as "13 Tai Bao". The word "Tai Bao" is prince's teacher. The priince's teacher can educate a prince to be a good future emperior. But the prince's teacher does not have any power. The posture training can "enhance" your TCMA ability. But it's not combat skill by itself.

Some TCMA such as the XingYi system, the "training method" is different from the "combat application". When you

- train XingYi, you use your body to push your shoulder, your shoulder to push elbow, your elbow to push hand.
- use XingYi in combat, you send out your hand like a whip. You then use your elbow to chase your hand, shoulder to chase your elbow, body to chase your shoulder.

For example, when you

- train Pi Chuan, Your body push from behind like to push a mountain, inch by inch, the harder the better. It's easy to develop your power this way.
- use Pi Chuan in combat, your Pi Chuan should act like axe chop wood and move like a whip. The faster the better.

Now the question is why does the "training method" different from the "combat application"? The simple answer is in training, you want to develop maximum power. In combat, you want to achieve maximum speed.

[EternalSpring]

True that i feel you on that....so how does one end up killing themselves by learning how to kill in a year!!!

I think he *probably (imho)* meant it in the sense that someone who trains solely with the intention to take people's lives will most likely have a mind and attitude that will get him into trouble and end up with him losing his own life.

[Yoshiyahu]

I think he *probably (imho)* meant it in the sense that someone who trains solely with the intention to take people's lives will most likely have a mind and attitude that will get him into trouble and end up with him losing his own life.

okay that makes perfect sense!

Also i would like to asked?


If people learn XingYi to fight why do they learn Tai Chi?

[YouKnowWho]

so how does one end up killing themselves by learning how to kill in a year!!!
Many XinYi guys lived short life. Their body get weaker and weaker everyday. When you train XingYi, you suppose to collect Jin, Qi, and Sheng inside your body. If you only thinking about "kill", when you train XingYi Fajin, you send out all your Jin, Qi and Sheng. How can you live health long life?

A prefessional MT fighter told me that an average MT fighter only has 6 years life in the ring. After 6 years, their body no longer be able to afford that kind of abusement.

The training, fighting, and performing are all different. Unfortunately, today people use fighting method to train, performing method to fight, Without knowing the difference, it can cause big problem.


If people learn XingYi to fight why do they learn Tai Chi?
It's always a good idea to train XingYi with some Taiji conservative attitude.

[Yoshiyahu]

I see Muay Thai fighting alot harder than Xing Yi training!!!

But thats me..I personally dont know any XingYi guys over forty...so i dont have much to compare it too!!!


But i suppose the same could be said about Wing Chun




Many XinYi guys lived short life. Their body get weaker and weaker everyday. When you train XingYi, you suppose to collect Jin, Qi, and Sheng inside your body. If you only thinking about "kill", when you train XingYi Fajin, you send out all your Jin, Qi and Sheng. How can you live health long life?

A prefessional MT fighter told me that an average MT fighter only has 6 years life in the ring. After 6 years, their body no longer be able to afford that kind of abusement.

The training, fighting, and performing are all different. Unfortunately, today people use fighting method to train, performing method to fight, Without knowing the difference, it can cause big problem.


It's always a good idea to train XingYi with some Taiji conservative attitude.

[Fa Xing]

A prefessional MT fighter told me that an average MT fighter only has 6 years life in the ring. After 6 years, their body no longer be able to afford that kind of abusement.

A LOT of MT guys overtrain to a rediculous level, and probably for good reason but after someone hits thirty they just don't recover the same way they did ten years prior, which is why they have such short careers.

[Yoshiyahu]

A LOT of MT guys overtrain to a rediculous level, and probably for good reason but after someone hits thirty they just don't recover the same way they did ten years prior, which is why they have such short careers.

overtain...what part of the training is bad?