Is Yut Lo Ba Chau or Yi Lu Ba Zhoug , (8 Elbows) the same as Tyrannical Claw

[KickingMantis]

I learned a form from Grandmaster LKW back in 1999 or 2000 at seminar in Long Island, NY and it was called, "Eight Elbows, but then there was discussion saying it wasnt really "Elbows" but "Tyrannical Claw(s)" I know in another thread, Sifu Tolson said that the form contains the 8 hard methods of the 7 Star System and not related to elbows at all.

My questions are this,

1. Is Yut and Yee Lo Ba Chau really "Tyrannical Claws"
2. Is the form really named that way to highlight the 8 hard techniques?
3. Why is it Tyrannical Claws?

Other issue on this form would be great too

thanks

[mooyingmantis]

I learned a form from Grandmaster LKW back in 1999 or 2000 at seminar in Long Island, NY and it was called, "Eight Elbows, but then there was discussion saying it wasnt really "Elbows" but "Tyrannical Claw(s)"

What discussion said it wasn't Eight Elbows that Shifu Lee taught?

My instructor learned two forms. One was an open door form called Ba Zhua (Eight Claws). Another current Mantis instructor who trained under one of the same Shifu that my instructor trained under told me that this was a form created by their mutual instructor. The second form my instructor learned from the same shifu was Ba Zhou (Eight Elbows), a closed door form in the Northern Praying Mantis system. So, at least two forms have been taught in the US, ba zhua (eight claws) and ba zhou (eight elbows). BTW, ba zhua and ba zhou can sound very similar depending on the speaker's dialect.


I know in another thread, Sifu Tolson said that the form contains the 8 hard methods of the 7 Star System and not related to elbows at all.

My exact words were:


The term "eight elbows" refers to eight short striking methods used in tanglangquan, and not to eight specific elbow striking methods.

Notice I said that the term "eight elbows" refers to "eight short striking methods", not eight hard methods. :) There are actually 64 "elbow/short strike" methods used in some families of tanglangquan. Eventually, I plan on translating the quanpu for the four sections of the Taiji Meihua Tanglangquan version of Ba Zhou.

As for your other questions, I will defer to others more knowledgeable than myself to answer those.

[KickingMantis]

Ok Gotcha. Thanks for the reply. Sorry to have "Misquoted" You. There was no agenda behind it. I realize there is a difference between the striking methods and the hard techniques. The right terminology is important so there is clarity when trying to comprehend and understand.

thanks for the information as well. I always like to know the background with regards to the forms and how or why they were created or what the purposes are. It helps to gain a better understanding of what your trying to learn form it and get out of it.

The only confusion that i mentioned when i was at the seminar learning the form was the translation of "Elbow" and "Claw." Which has been made clear by my instructor and now by you. Thanks. :)

[mooyingmantis]

Ok Gotcha. Thanks for the reply. Sorry to have "Misquoted" You. There was no agenda behind it.

No problem! I often misread things things myself when in a hurry. I didn't think there was an ill intent. :)


I always like to know the background with regards to the forms and how or why they were created or what the purposes are. It helps to gain a better understanding of what your trying to learn form it and get out of it.

I am the same way. I always ask a form:

1. What is the theme?
2. Where are the 8 hard or 12 soft principles in the form?
3. What keyword principles are demonstrated in the form?
4. What combinations are in the form? And how are the combinations similar or different from the other forms?
5. Who created the form or from which other system was the form borrowed? Some mantis forms were actually part of the curriculum of other styles (e.g. Mizongquan/Lost Track Fist) and were adopted into mantis.


The only confusion that i mentioned when i was at the seminar learning the form was the translation of "Elbow" and "Claw." Which has been made clear by my instructor and now by you. Thanks. :)

Glad I could help!

[Paul T England]

GM LKW's syllabus has Yat Lo Ba Chau and Yee Lo Ba Chau. these are not 8 elbows. LKW has some closed door forms and I would guess the obvious mantis forms such as 8 elbows are within that group.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[CFT]

Tyrannical could come from baa (tyranny): http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%C5Q

霸

[mooyingmantis]

GM LKW's syllabus has Yat Lo Ba Chau and Yee Lo Ba Chau. these are not 8 elbows. LKW has some closed door forms and I would guess the obvious mantis forms such as 8 elbows are within that group.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

Paul,
I was hoping you would chime in. :)


Tyrannical could come from baa (tyranny): http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%C5Q

霸

CFT,
Yes that makes sense!

霸 爪 - bà zhuǎ - Tyrant's Claws

[Tainan Mantis]

the same Shifu that my instructor trained under told me that this was a form created by their mutual instructor.

Who created the Tyrants Claw?

[mooyingmantis]

Who created the Tyrants Claw?

Kevin,
No idea.

The form I mentioned that my Shifu studied and that he taught to me was Eight Claws (八 爪 bā zhuǎ). I have never learned the Tyrant's Claw set(s). I had never even heard of it/them till recently.

[Tainan Mantis]

Sorry, I should have said Eight Claws. Do you know who made that?

[mooyingmantis]

Sorry, I should have said Eight Claws. Do you know who made that?

Yes, but given the politics in mantis I don't think that I should "name names" on a public forum. My instructor and the other mantis instructor that gave their instructor credit for creating the form read the posts here. If they want to give more information, I will leave that up to them.

[xiao yao]

so are these forms related in any way? ba zhao and ba zhou........ is the zhao - claws - an extended version of the elbow, using the same principles and techniques, but with a longer range focus???

[Tainan Mantis]

I don't think that I should "name names" on a public forum.

I understand your position. I appreciate the respect you give to their views.

I have always been curious since one of WHF's student came to visit my shifu some time ago and did this 8 claws form. My teacher was also wondering where it came from.
We couldn't communicate well because the visitor mostly spoke Cantonese.

[mooyingmantis]

so are these forms related in any way? ba zhao and ba zhou........ is the zhao - claws - an extended version of the elbow, using the same principles and techniques, but with a longer range focus???

No, very little similarity. The only literal "elbow" strikes are the folding elbow (疊 肘 - dié zhǒu), turning elbow (拐 肘 - guǎi zhǒu) and the augmented elbow (邦 肘 - bāng zhǒu) commonly found in HK Seven Star PM. As for the "short strikes" theme of Eight Elbows, it is foreign to Eight Claws.

[alextse4]

I understand your position. I appreciate the respect you give to their views.

I have always been curious since one of WHF's student came to visit my shifu some time ago and did this 8 claws form. My teacher was also wondering where it came from.
We couldn't communicate well because the visitor mostly spoke Cantonese.

May I know the name of this student of WHF?

[Tainan Mantis]

May I know the name of this student of WHF?

I am sorry, I don't know. In fact, later I thought about it, he was in his early 40's back in the early 90's, so maybe he had been a kid when WHF was alive, or maybe there was a problem with translation. He was only there for about 5 days, having come to learn 8 zhou from Shi Zhengzhong.

[alextse4]

I am sorry, I don't know. In fact, later I thought about it, he was in his early 40's back in the early 90's, so maybe he had been a kid when WHF was alive, or maybe there was a problem with translation. He was only there for about 5 days, having come to learn 8 zhou from Shi Zhengzhong.

then may be not WHF's student,WHF did not had any 8 claws form.He only had one 8 elbow form.

[Tainan Mantis]

Thanks for clearing that up, I had often wondered about that.

[mooyingmantis]

Here is Second Road Tyrannical Claws (Er Lu Ba Zhua/Yi Lou Ba Jow):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKG646w_aMc&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

[Tainan Mantis]

And here at 6 seconds you can see a picture of 'tang lang shuang zhua' mantis double claws. A weapon strapped on to the forearms

TANG LANG SHUANG ZHUA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUOxPY0IXAU)