the practicality of practicing impractical moves...

[uki]

comments on the underlying principles of training impractical movements... i believe that one has an edge if no one takes you seriously - the ultimate surprise of any attack... tiger styles are reknown for their tenacious ability to strike from any and all positions... feigning and providing openings is a customary trait of styles such as mantis, crane, monkey, lost track, drunken, and eagle, no?? where and how does one draw absolute conclusions on assumed situations and pre-conceptional martial art ideologies?? in my martial arts journey, i began to understand that one must be able to adapt to any given situation regardless of structure, posture, and circumstance...

[-N-]

comments on the underlying principles of training impractical movements... i believe that one has an edge if no one takes you seriously - the ultimate surprise of any attack...[...] feigning and providing openings is a customary trait of styles such as mantis [...]

Mantis will feint and create setups and openings.

But the strategy is not based on doing impractical movements that make the other guy go, "wtf!!?1!".

[-N-]

Or was I not supposed to take this thread seriously?

[Fa Xing]

Here's the thing, I would love to practice more martial movements that tend to be more flair than substance because it's fun and great exercise; but, my time is limited. I would rather spend more time on things that I know have a higher percentage chance of working than things that may take someone by surprise but may or may not be effective.

"Efficiency is anything that scores..." and especially if it's known to work for most people most of the time; otherwise it's a waste of my time. ;)

[Dragonzbane76]

I would rather spend more time on things that I know have a higher percentage chance of working than things that may take someone by surprise but may or may not be effective.


I was going to comment of the same nature. Beat me to it.

If you do the "exotic" in your chosen field so be it. To each there own, but effective is effective and I would rather rely on something that is simple and not so "problematic" in nature when dealing with situations that call for such things.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Practice and timing are everything....if everyone trains to fight the same way, then you'd have the UFC or Boxing. Your opponents know what is coming and how to counter it...practicing a spinning backfist for example, training for it with differing opponents will provide you with a higher chance of landing than someone who goes for the high percentage shots.

It all depends on your skill set, mind set, and who you are as a martial artist. A head kick coming from a 300 lb man would something I wouldn't expect, hence my focus would be at preventing him from taking me down, landing a huge hay maker, or cornering me where I couldn't use space to my advantage. Again, if he trains for it, has the coordination and speed to pull it off, it would be devastating.

[YouKnowWho]

Practice and timing are everything....
Agree with you on this.

In Gong Li Chuan (many perople train this form, even Chinwoo system train this form too), there is a very interested footwork. You jump up with your left leg, land with your right leg, and add another left "stealing step" at the end. If you are young and has a lot of spring power, you can jump forward 12 feet with these 3 steps footwork. That's a lot of distance to cover. The interest thing is when you jump in the air, not only your opponent doesn't know what you are doing, from his distance judgement, there is no way that your punch can reach him. When you land your 2nd foot, the moment that you use stealing step to get that extra distance, your opponent may be too late to response.

Once in a while, you will find something like this in TCMA. It may not be a popular move but it sure add some surprise in combat. I love to collect these kind of "abnormal" moves. It makes TCMA training with so much fun.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The thing is there are always advanced and harder to pull off techniques found in martial arts, and many in Kung Fu. Once you have the basics down it is both fun and productive to work techniques that are "outside of the box" of what is considered conventional movments.

I can throw a roundhouse kick many times to my opponent and he may expect it, but if I throw my roundhouse than follow up with a spinning hook kick it is the element of suprise often because of how unorthodox or "outside the box" it is.

Getting caught up in the core basics is what I know and all I need mentality is both stagnant and unproductive.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Bringing something different to the table is always a good idea BUT you still have to be able to MAKE it work AND it has to be effective.
And for that, it takes more than it being just "different".

[-N-]

Practical, effective, but unexpected is fine.

[-N-]

Agree with you on this.

In Gong Li Chuan (many perople train this form, even Chinwoo system train this form too), there is a very interested footwork. You jump up with your left leg, land with your right leg, and add another left "stealing step" at the end.

[...]

Once in a while, you will find something like this in TCMA. It may not be a popular move but it sure add some surprise in combat. I love to collect these kind of "abnormal" moves. It makes TCMA training with so much fun.

Nothing abnormal there. That's just basic running attack footwork.

Most people don't translate form to application very well though.

I had to stop using it when sparring because it was too effective, and there was no point to keep overrunning people.

[uki]

Most people don't translate form to application very well though.if i remember correctly, every step of form can be applied as a kick also??

[sanjuro_ronin]

if i remember correctly, every step of form can be applied as a kick also??

Only if done as a kick/stomp.

[uki]

Only if done as a kick/stomp.i was referring to mental paths... tweek the intention and you can substitute a "step" for a "kick"... forms are done the same, yet on a sob-conscious level you are simultaneously training a kick... no??

[uki]

But the strategy is not based on doing impractical movements that make the other guy go, "wtf!!?1!".but wouldn't that be the sh!t... imagine the time frame you would have if you got your opponent to get to the point of "WTF". :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

i was referring to mental paths... tweek the intention and you can substitute a "step" for a "kick"... forms are done the same, yet on a sob-conscious level you are simultaneously training a kick... no??

Mental paths NEED a physical pathway, we fight as we train bro and we should train as we fight.

[uki]

Mental paths NEED a physical pathway, we fight as we train bro and we should train as we fight.is fighting not an expression?? there is no possible way to train as we fight, because every fight is different... this is where the original post comes in - do you not find it practical to train impractical moves in order to better prepare yourself for the impracticalities of melee??

[sanjuro_ronin]

is fighting not an expression?? there is no possible way to train as we fight, because every fight is different... this is where the original post comes in - do you not find it practical to train impractical moves in order to better prepare yourself for the impracticalities of melee??

Every fight MAY be different but they all have ONE common element that is always constant.
YOU.

[uki]

Every fight MAY be different but they all have ONE common element that is always constant.
YOU.that's the point... you have to be impractical at times in order to have an edge over those who are practical.

[Lucas]

i believe weapons training factors in here.

[sanjuro_ronin]

that's the point... you have to be impractical at times in order to have an edge over those who are practical.

No one is arguing that, but you impractical MUST STILL BE EFFECTIVE.
And the only way for it to be that is to train it.

[Drake]

that's the point... you have to be impractical at times in order to have an edge over those who are practical.

Creativity without formal training gets you punched in the head.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Creativity without formal training gets you punched in the head.

Which is very impractical !
:D

[Lucas]

unless you're a turn the other cheek kind of guy :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

unless you're a turn the other cheek kind of guy :p

One must turn the other cheek, if one it so spinning hook kick someone in the face !
Or worse !
http://www.dasfuego.com/storage/das-best.gif?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1281831712980

[Lucas]

LOL FUKIN EPIC!!!thrust that bich off that stage!

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL FUKIN EPIC!!!thrust that bich off that stage!

I can't stop laughing about that gif !
:D

[GeneChing]

It's straight out of xiaohongquan. Thanks for the application! I always thought it was impractical. ;)

[Fa Xing]

I don't think everyone would fight the same if they focused on the most effective techniques and not so much on less effective ones. It will really depend on personal attributes (speed, strength, power, quickness, agility, or just general overall athleticism). Principles are another factor that can make difference in a fight and not just what the move is; it brings to mind that old quote that has been floating around for some time now:


I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.

This is to me is an important thing to consider when training, and for me, most people who train (traditional or not) usually just break in down to only a dozen techniques they do really well.

[Faruq]

Jeepers, guys! I'm at work here. Can't you warn a vato before you put one of those up?

[TenTigers]

not sure what you mean by impractical. Sure, there are certain techniques, due to their simplicity and directness, may be deemed more high percentage than others, but I never saw any reason to have an impractical technique passed down to the next generation.
Granted, there are some techniques that definitely take more time and practice to develop, and of course the argument is that that time could be better spent on simpler techniques.
So..quit Kung-Fu and take up boxing and be done with it.

[uki]

So..quit Kung-Fu and take up boxing and be done with it.so your advice is what you do not follow yourself??

[TenTigers]

so your advice is what you do not follow yourself??
Like I said, that's the argument. I didn't say I subscribe to that view.
I don't agree that there are impractical moves in my Gung-Fu.
If you think your time would be better spent only practicing what you feel are the more practical techniques, then fine. Whatever floats yer boat.
Personally at my age, I probably won't be getting into schoolyard fights or bar brawls, and I doubt I'll be getting into the cage anytime soon.
I am pretty confident of my self-defense skills, and I practice to improve, refine and develop my technique and skill, and as a vehicle for personal development.

[YouKnowWho]

The 1st time that I used TKD "hook kick" (I don't believe it exists in TCMA) to kick on my opponent's head, I was quite surprised myself. I didn't even believe that was possible. Even today, I still train hook kick daily. Anything that you

- can make it work in combat is good technique.
- can't make it work in combat is bad technique (at least you are not good enough to make it works).

[SPJ]

comments on the underlying principles of training impractical movements... i believe that one has an edge if no one takes you seriously - the ultimate surprise of any attack... tiger styles are reknown for their tenacious ability to strike from any and all positions... feigning and providing openings is a customary trait of styles such as mantis, crane, monkey, lost track, drunken, and eagle, no?? where and how does one draw absolute conclusions on assumed situations and pre-conceptional martial art ideologies?? in my martial arts journey, i began to understand that one must be able to adapt to any given situation regardless of structure, posture, and circumstance...

every thing will work only under certain predetermined factors or conditions.

right timing, right position and right structure of power and balance.

if one factor is missing, the whole thing will not work.

that is the limit of things.

so the lessons become, if we may still make something work under less stringent conditions or fewer predetermined factors.

---

My point is that we need full understanding of how your moves would and would not work.

then we may learn how to make it work under less favorable conditions.

:)

[YouKnowWho]

every thing will work only under certain predetermined factors or conditions.

When a move doesn't work, we should always look at ourselves, do we use the right move at the right moment? In Chinese wrestling, you have to learn at least 2 different kind of moves. Those move that work when your oppponent tries to straight his leg (raise), and those moves that work when your opponent tries to bend his legs (drop).