Which of these cheapens the reputation of martial arts more?

[IronFist]

One of the things martial artists have to deal with is people giving MA a bad name, because you don't want to be associated with those people, or rather, you don't want those people associated with what you do.

Poll choices coming

[uki]

ones personal attitude is the foremost detrimental aspect associated with martial arts... if you rub of as a being a d!ck, even though you are an expert martial artist, peoples first impression of you is going to become an embryonic bias that martial artists are d!cks. :)

[Punch.HeadButt]

I choose politics. Everybody sticking their nose in everyone else's business, saying this or that is not traditional, or this or that lineage isn't valid, or this or that training method is not as good as this one or that one.

I'm not talking about actual discussion and exchanging of viewpoints and experience...I'm talking about the political bickering that makes a lot of the TCMA community look like high school girls at lunch break.

Everyone worrying about what everyone else is doing. It's silly, and one of the main reasons I don't really talk about martial arts with other people. Prefer to just keep my mouth shut and ears open (just in case a gem floats by).

[taai gihk yahn]

where's the "all of the above"? there's no "all of the above"...:mad:

[bawang]

ur asking me which pile of sh1t smells worst. they all sh1t.

[David Jamieson]

The pile with the corn in it smells worse.

[Shaolin]

This poll cheapens the reputation. The problem is practitioners have a bad attitude towards those doing there own thing enjoying the way they choose to practice their martial arts. What do we care if they break things on their body or yell and scream, or create their own form of tournament sparring. As long as they're enjoying their lives who are we to judge?

[bawang]

its offensive when you make a mockery out of someone elses culture, turn something somber, manly, and spiritual into something childish, effiminate, greedy , selfish and corrupt.

when you purposely negatively impact anothers culture, customs, and way of life, you become an intruder. you dont get to choose.

[Dragonzbane76]

yeah someone make an option for "all the above" I was going to vote for that, but alas no option.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

This poll cheapens the reputation. The problem is practitioners have a bad attitude towards those doing there own thing enjoying the way they choose to practice their martial arts. What do we care if they break things on their body or yell and scream, or create their own form of tournament sparring. As long as they're enjoying their lives who are we to judge?

While your argument has merit, there is an underlying problem that exists relevant to Kung Fu particulary.

Bending spears with throats, using toothpick bo staffs while yelling and screaming, making up crap sparring that is ineffective, and being "too deadly" to spar are all predominatly found in Kung Fu, as well as some other Asian TMA.

So in essence the whole guilty by association is why many look down on Kung Fu because they see a group of tricksters and charlatains who try and convince people too naive or stupid to know better into drinking their kool-aid. Bawang actually brings up a good point, if I were Chinese and someone sh**it all over my cultural heritage like this I would be pi***sed too, because the truth of it is this is not what TCMA is supposed to be.

It is the same as the quack doctors of the early 20th century selling charms and snake oil and saying it cured cancer. They are selling people a false hope and false sense of security and honestly I believe martial artists have a duty to inform ignorant people of this kind of garbage.

And you know what, I am going to bring the MMA vs. TMA because in the end, modern MMA is what Kung Fu was and should return to, not a bunch of limp noodles in silk pajamas yelling STEP!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

All of the above and YES as practioners of TCMA we not only have the right but the DUTY to point out what makes TCMA look bad.

[Lebaufist]

I voted for number 3.

Because it is the biggest pile on the list. And not because they try to look like their style. Its because they don't seem to have the foggiest notion about the context and purpose for their technique. They instead flip the page and choose technique 237-b and just throw it out into the air like a net to catch fish in hope that something will connect.

The qi gung tricks and the extreme kiai flippers still do need a modicum of conditioning. So in at least that they have something.

Too deadly teacher is an excuse for inaction. Perhaps they are old, perhaps they just don't want to bother with the physical tolls ring fighting takes. BUT, it doesn't necessarily reflect a weakness in the student's training. I mean, just look at Ross. ;)

[Faruq]

its offensive when you make a mockery out of someone elses culture, turn something somber, manly, and spiritual into something childish, effiminate, greedy , selfish and corrupt.

when you purposely negatively impact anothers culture, customs, and way of life, you become an intruder. you dont get to choose.

This is deep, though people of the very culture do it as well....

[Faruq]

I think people who cannot apply the art effectively in combat yet go around saying they know it or even worse, teaching it, would be the worst culprit. Followed at a close second by the people who sell $500 Bai Ci certificates and /or teach fake forms to people thought not to matter....

[Lebaufist]

Well, its both. The pressure on the early 20th century CMA teachers to get successful schools running led to the situation TCMA in america is in now.

[Lebaufist]

I think people who cannot apply the art effectively in combat yet going around saying they know it or even worse, teaching it, would be the worst culprit. Followed at a close second by the $500 Bai Ci certificates and fake forms being taught to people thought not to matter....
If and only If the said student can't fight.

Combat is a tricky word. Which combat? where? War? The pub? context is everything.

[TenTigers]

I was invited to join some sort of Martial Arts organization, world council of sokeship, or something like that.
Anyway, after seeing the lineup of 10th dans, Grandmasters, Supreme Masters, etc...
I declined.
Do a search....
that's all I'm sayin..

[Iron_Eagle_76]

This is deep, though people of the very culture do it as well....

True, but that does not make any less revolting. Peoples of a dubious nature will always find a way to rip off or take advantage of an unsuspecting person, even if it means shi***ting on their own people. Americans, Brits, Russians, ect are no different in that regard.


Combat is a tricky word. Which combat? where? War? The pub? context is everything.

Context is everything, but at it's core all martial arts should teach hand to hand combat unless it is strictly a weapons art such as fencing. Often times people read into things and make them more than what they are.

[TenTigers]

In the 70's, when everybody was Kung-Fu fightin', Guys with a kenpo backround, who had good kicks from a few years in TKD, donned black pajamas, made their shuto blocks into Tiger Claws, waved their arms up and down like Bruce Lee, did a cartwheel and a split and declared themselves as Shaolin Masters. (Northern if they had good kicks, Southern if they didn't.) They made up forms from watching Shaw Bros. movies, and took first place in tournaments-because the Karate judges had no more idea what Kung-Fu looked like, than the circus clowns performing this drek.
Well, now there are schools that are second or third generation form these Masters.
These new "Sifus," are dedicated to their art, train their students hard, and really think that what they are doing is Kung-Fu. Why wouldn't they? They are already three generations in. (their Grandmasters learned from an old Chinaman* in the park, or take-out, or when stationed in the Orient)






*intentional ignorance

[Shaolin]

Everyone has a solid argument and obvious passion against these individuals who "cheapen the martial arts." And it's very easy for all of us to fall trap to getting angry and slander these individuals in a martial arts forum.

So how in your opinions are you combating this?

[Lucas]

Never compromise your integrity.

[TenTigers]

So how in your opinions are you combating this?
By maintaining my integrity, teaching my art the best I possibly can, turning out good, strong students, and ****ing and moaning on the forum.

[Punch.HeadButt]

Everyone has a solid argument and obvious passion against these individuals who "cheapen the martial arts." And it's very easy for all of us to fall trap to getting angry and slander these individuals in a martial arts forum.

So how in your opinions are you combating this?

I fall back on that old classic "be the change you want to see in the world." I don't get involved in politics (though that's easy to do when you're not in the mix, even when I was teaching it was easy for me to side-step the talking...big props to Gene and those like him who can navigate the poop and come out clean(ish) ;-)

I don't butt into other people's training, I don't argue style vs. style or tma vs. mma (anymore, I admit to falling in that trap before), I don't give my opinions on what other people are doing unless they ask for them (assuming what they're doing is not a direct assault on something important to me, of course), I make a conscious effort to be respectful to other practitioners (and people in general) regardless of what, where, or how long they practice or what their opinions are...

Basically, I don't like ****heads, so I try not to be another ****head to add to the pile :D

I do put a lot of effort into my training, I do try to improve, I do try to learn from other people and their experiences, I do try and effectively teach what students I have, I do try and further my understanding of whatever the hell I'm doing....and I do my best to not disrupt other people who are doing the same.

You get the idea. Sure, I still falter at all this from time to time, but I'm still learning. I hope. :o

[Lucas]

this was tough for me to make a decision with the available options. at first i wanted to say all, as i do think all of them can be detrimental...yet when I started thinking about it further i came to a conclusion about this.

personally i think misrepresentation is the biggest harm. stage tricks, screaming little kids with plastic staves, sparring based around style restrictions are all forms of expression. which are ok, for what they are specifically; outlets. its when these individuals mis represent WHAT they are doing and to WHAT aims they are doing it is when these things become an issue. so these aspects can definately be bad, but as long as people are open and honest its not really a big deal. no worse for martial arts than movies are.

let people do their parlour tricks and their competitions. nothing wrong with that at all. as long as they are honest with what they do, its not an issue.

the too deadly guys are in a constant state of misrepresentation however. which is an issue for all involved. the teacher, the students, the prospects are all being fed mis information about what is actually going on.

[Faruq]

Everyone has a solid argument and obvious passion against these individuals who "cheapen the martial arts." And it's very easy for all of us to fall trap to getting angry and slander these individuals in a martial arts forum.

So how in your opinions are you combating this?

By never claiming to know martial arts. And if caught doing anything resembling martial arts immediately clarifying "No! I would have to have special training equipment (roller bar, claw bag, wall bag or palm bag), sparring partners, and regular sparring with the contact and speed boxers use. I definately haven't accomplished any of that. I can't do diddly".

Now I know this clashes with what a lot of people here consider necessary for mastery, but I'm probably the least skilled and knowledgeable here so take what I tell people with a grain of salt. That's just me.

And in response to:

Context is everything, but at it's core all martial arts should teach hand to hand combat unless it is strictly a weapons art such as fencing. Often times people read into things and make them more than what they are.

I'd have to say just being able to skillfully defend oneself on the street or pub would be enough in my opinion. I mean for a kung fu master to be as competent as an MMA guy without using MMA. I mean like the guys at http://www.pakmei.net/articles/articlelist.asp?ID=2 are.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Everyone has a solid argument and obvious passion against these individuals who "cheapen the martial arts." And it's very easy for all of us to fall trap to getting angry and slander these individuals in a martial arts forum.

So how in your opinions are you combating this?

When someone comes to me to learn to fight, I will teach them under NO PRETENSE of anything else than teaching how to fight.
If however someone comes to me to learn a specific style of kung fu that I have experience in such as Hung Kuen of SPM, I will explain that I am NOT certified to teach them, that I am NOT a lineage holder and that if they want a "legit and certified Sifu" I can find them one.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Going beyond the acts themselves, it is the money wh0res that cheapen the martial arts.

You should have listed bogus brick breaking.



mickey

[uki]

You should have listed bogus brick breaking.as a mason, i can assure you i can make a seemingly solid heavy slab of concrete - with the recipe tweeked - that my 2 year old could headbutt apart... for the true masters i make them with rebar inside. ;)

[Lebaufist]

(Northern if they had good kicks, Southern if they didn't.) .......
This made me chuckle.

[Lebaufist]

So how in your opinions are you combating this?simple, a block, is a block, is a block. A punch. etc etc. put together, deal with whats coming. next.

The right tool for the right job. Its not rocket science.

yadda, yadda, yadda..............

[IronFist]

Greetings,

Going beyond the acts themselves, it is the money wh0res that cheapen the martial arts.

You should have listed bogus brick breaking.



mickey

I almost did. There's a lot of that garbage out there, too.

Baked bricks.

Breaking on a step and lifting it at the last moment before impact.

Breaking the bottom brick and blaming it on qi rather than physics (since the trick can be replicated with a sledgehammer... or maybe the guy was just transferring his qi through the sledgehammer ;) )

"Short power" that is obvious bodyweight momentum.

One inch punches where the guy pulls his hand back 5" or steps through so the total distance traveled is significantly more than one inch.

Etc.

I don't know why people can't just be happy with breaking bricks normally. It's a pretty impressive skill. But they have to try and associate it with all this mystic mumbo jumbo so the audience thinks they have magic powers.

But anyway, I agree with you. These things cheapen the reputation of martial arts.

[IronFist]

In all seriousness, if during those "extreme" competitions and the form sparring stuff, if they flashed the words "THIS IS NOT REAL FIGHTING" across the screen, do you think people would still watch it?

I think people are into that because:

1) they want to believe so badly that that is what "real" martial arts look like

2) they actually believe that is what "real" martial arts look like

Let's be honest, it's really just a performance. It requires a lot of skill and athleticism, I'm not trying to take away from it. Most people can't do it, and those who can require a lot of training, dedication, and effort. But it's not "real" martial arts (as evidenced by the fact that actual combat does not look like that nor do people who try to fight that way usually win fights).

That is a huge disservice to the martial arts.

Martial arts are inherently associated with fighting and combat.

So these silly non-martial art things I listed above are trying to ride the coattails of martial arts' combat reputation.

They're not (usually) coming right out and saying "WE ARE DEADLY NINJAS!" but they sure don't seem to mind being silently associated with fighting, combat, and toughness. And that is where the misleading occurs. None of that stuff has anything to do with fighting, combat, or toughness.

[IronFist]

Put another way, why do people go to martial arts schools?

Because they want to learn to defend themselves. Don't even start with the "I want to learn culture/history/tradition" nonsense. There are books if you want to learn that.

People are drawn to martial arts because they want to learn to fight (or defend themselves).

What does every picked on kid in elementary school say? "I want to learn karate."

I think there should be disclaimers or something so that people don't waste their time learning to scream while swinging a flexible bo and think they are actually learning to defend themselves in the process. Developing a false sense of confidence is more dangerous than not knowing how to fight at all.

So they need disclaimers on the TV broadcasts and on the doors of these fake schools.

"REAL FIGHTING NOT TAUGHT HERE"

You can get in shape, you can learn the techniques, you can develop endurance and strength, you can learn choreography, but you are not learning how to defend yourself.

I don't have a problem with people who want to do that stuff, just make sure that they know what they are signing up for. And put disclaimers on public broadcasts so people stop thinking that dudes wearing pajamas and screaming are deadly.





(actually, they are learning real fighting. It's just too deadly to use on anyone. Their extreme kiais could kill people if done at full volume)

[Drake]

I jusy enjoy the culture, history, and learning new things. I am a big guy. I can punch and kick my way through most conflicts. Usually I only have to make contact once or twice. :D

[Lee Chiang Po]

All of the above and YES as practioners of TCMA we not only have the right but the DUTY to point out what makes TCMA look bad.


The problem with that is that not everyone sees things in the same color. Who is to be the judge of what is right and what is wrong? It is all then left up to the individuals personal opinion.

[SPJ]

One of the things martial artists have to deal with is people giving MA a bad name, because you don't want to be associated with those people, or rather, you don't want those people associated with what you do.

Poll choices coming

this thread reminds me of a tale.

there was this daoist priest. He made some herbal pills. It was made of some honey, vitamine. But he said it could heal this and heal that. It would make you strong etc.

It is a placebo effect.

If you said your back is hurting, he would show you some massage and then sell you the pills.

MA is just MA.

It is hardwork, hardwork and hardwork.

No magic bullet. No magic power. No magic Qi ball.

If you believe otherwise, then it is a great mistake, indeed.

Buyer beware that is.

:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

The problem with that is that not everyone sees things in the same color. Who is to be the judge of what is right and what is wrong? It is all then left up to the individuals personal opinion.

Who's to be the judge?
ME of course :D

[ginosifu]

I was invited to join some sort of Martial Arts organization, world council of sokeship, or something like that.
Anyway, after seeing the lineup of 10th dans, Grandmasters, Supreme Masters, etc...
I declined.
Do a search....
that's all I'm sayin..

They invited me too. I declined as well.

ginosifu

[RWilson]

Calling this crap martial or saying it will aide your martial arts cheapens martial arts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XI8JwLUako&feature=related

[RWilson]

I was watching this clip and thought, "This guy moves fluidly." He talks about how certain postures help against an opponent but he does them in the air. His applications are not realistic. Doing forms and pulling techniques from the secrete chinese moves, imo, is a bad way to do techniques. There is no way to develop spontaneity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Byo1T04n1g&feature=related

[Drake]

Calling this crap martial or saying it will aide your martial arts cheapens martial arts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XI8JwLUako&feature=related

I want that :53 of my life back, and I want it back now.

And WTF IS UP WITH ALL THESE FAT WHITE PEOPLE GRAVITATING TO MYSTICAL MARTIAL ARTS?

Kung fu is about work...training... blood, sweat, and a small amount of tears. There's nothing magical about a kick to the chest, and there's nothing magical about a sow choy to the neck. No tricks, no chi blasts. Just simple technique refinement and the strength training to make it effective.

And the only way you get good at this stuff is by doing it, and doing it often. If you are training like you should be, you should not have a huge ass gut hanging out. That man looks like he hasn't broken a sweat in years,

[RWilson]

I want that :53 of my life back, and I want it back now.

And WTF IS UP WITH ALL THESE FAT WHITE PEOPLE GRAVITATING TO MYSTICAL MARTIAL ARTS?

Kung fu is about work...training... blood, sweat, and a small amount of tears. There's nothing magical about a kick to the chest, and there's nothing magical about a sow choy to the neck. No tricks, no chi blasts. Just simple technique refinement and the strength training to make it effective.

And the only way you get good at this stuff is by doing it, and doing it often. If you are training like you should be, you should not have a huge ass gut hanging out. That man looks like he hasn't broken a sweat in years,


I personally do not denigrate people who gain weight and stop doing real martial arts as they get older. The human machine has to rest eventually and cannot be going full tilt forever. Having said this I agree with you when we are talking about people teaching "self defense". They need to actually be able to do the techniques to teach them.

Here is another bs clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOZgabtgqks&feature=related

[Drake]

I personally do not denigrate people who gain weight and stop doing real martial arts as they get older. The human machine has to rest eventually and cannot be going full tilt forever. Having said this I agree with you when we are talking about people teaching "self defense". They need to actually be able to do the techniques to teach them.

Here is another bs clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOZgabtgqks&feature=related

Bullcrap. I watched a 90 year old master do 100 pushups. Jack Palance was also the epitome of fitness, and that dude was a mummy. I say again... bullcrap. Being a fatass is not the result of being older. So I DO denigrate them, because either they failed to adapt their diet to their slower metabolism, or they just stopped giving a **** about their fitness.

[YouKnowWho]

Here is another bs clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOZgabtgqks&feature=related

That "Torso Fa-Jin" is a very useful skill to have if you know what to do before and after.

Oneday a TCMA master bragged about his rooting and said that nobody could move him. My friend challenged him. My friend said, "I'll attack you 3 times. If in any of my 3 attacks that you can stand on your feet for more than 3 seconds, you win. Otherwise you lose." In all 3 of my friend's attacks, the TCMA master was on the ground less than 3 seconds. What my friend used was exactly as shown in that clip but with something extra "before and after".

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is NO reason for ANYONE that does a MA to be out of shape.
We may carry more weight around at certain times, even depending on the type of training we are doing, but being very overweight to the point that we CAN'T do our MA the right way is very wrong.

That said, WHO is the fat person we are talking about? I didn't see anyone fat in those clips.
As I am sure you guys know, Shifu Painter has an open door policy, if anyone would like to test them man and his "fatness", he is easy to find.

[Drake]

The guys in the background wearing their "bling".

I don't know Mr. Painter, and that may be for the best. I am giving an honest assessment... it's clips like that that spook people into other forms of recreation.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The guys in the background wearing their "bling".

I don't know Mr. Painter, and that may be for the best. I am giving an honest assessment... it's clips like that that spook people into other forms of recreation.

Taken out of context, I can see that.
I don't know what is going on in the first clip, the "intent" one but I do recall reading that Mr.Painter does teach a form of "hypnotic/intent/mind manipulation".
Nothing new in the MA by the way, MANY old school MA have that.

As for the body strike, almost every MA has that, especially armed ones.

[RWilson]

There is NO reason for ANYONE that does a MA to be out of shape.
We may carry more weight around at certain times, even depending on the type of training we are doing, but being very overweight to the point that we CAN'T do our MA the right way is very wrong.

That said, WHO is the fat person we are talking about? I didn't see anyone fat in those clips.
As I am sure you guys know, Shifu Painter has an open door policy, if anyone would like to test them man and his "fatness", he is easy to find.

Painter is the fat guy.

It is easy to have an "open door policy" in this day and age of peace. The cops can get called. You will be sued. An open door policy is bs. If you do have an open door policy you should be going through other peoples's doors and testing them. I can sit by, put up crap, and then have no one come to see me because of location or fear of repercussions.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Painter is the fat guy.

It is easy to have an "open door policy" in this day and age of peace. The cops can get called. You will be sued. An open door policy is bs. If you do have an open door policy you should be going through other peoples's doors and testing them. I can sit by, put up crap, and then have no one come to see me because of location or fear of repercussions.

I assume you have never seen him or met him?

Well, since YOU put up the clip as what YOU believe to be BS, it falls on you to "prove" your view.
We shall await your proof with breathless anticipation :D

[Drake]

And I DESPISE when open door policies are brought up on the web. Why? Because you are placing the burden of proof on someone else, requiring them to either buy a plane ticket, take time off work, explain to his wife why he dropped $1k for a flight and missed work just to go see if someone was real, or... he is instantly wrong.

I'm not flying to Boston, NYC, SF, or Australia just to engage in patty cake with someone. If you are out of shape, Jedi mind tricks will only work for a bit.

On my side of the fence, GM DFW, Master Tat Mau Wong, ANY of the Hung Sing guys down in FL and HK, and ESPECIALLY the Buk Sing guys are all in remarkable shape, regardless of age. It's a side effect of good training.

[RWilson]

Taken out of context, I can see that.
I don't know what is going on in the first clip, the "intent" one but I do recall reading that Mr.Painter does teach a form of "hypnotic/intent/mind manipulation".
Nothing new in the MA by the way, MANY old school MA have that.

As for the body strike, almost every MA has that, especially armed ones.

How many old school ma who have "mind control" have used it in competition or sparring?

You are being way too nice to this clip and teacher. I do not know the guy either but who cares. He puts up a bs clip and we are allowed to judge. YOu are just being nice because he is Dale's teacher.

[Hebrew Hammer]

There is NO reason for ANYONE that does a MA to be out of shape.
We may carry more weight around at certain times, even depending on the type of training we are doing, but being very overweight to the point that we CAN'T do our MA the right way is very wrong.

That said, WHO is the fat person we are talking about? I didn't see anyone fat in those clips.
As I am sure you guys know, Shifu Painter has an open door policy, if anyone would like to test them man and his "fatness", he is easy to find.

So that's your answer? Fat people are ruining martial arts? It should be part of solution...you're better than that Sanjuro. As a fat martial artist, I'll never be uber fit, I'm about 3 bills and can do 12-3 min rounds of intense heavy bag work with 30 sec rest periods...hardly impressive but its something I love to do and martial arts has been a key for keeping me motivated in better shape than I would without it.

It's a side show...there are fat martial artists who are quite athletic...lets not forget Sammo Hung. I think how you train, how you teach are far more important than how much you weigh.

[RWilson]

I assume you have never seen him or met him?

Well, since YOU put up the clip as what YOU believe to be BS, it falls on you to "prove" your view.
We shall await your proof with breathless anticipation :D

The clip proves it for me. Lol. Defending this crap is bad for the martial arts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And I DESPISE when open door policies are brought up on the web. Why? Because you are placing the burden of proof on someone else, requiring them to either buy a plane ticket, take time off work, explain to his wife why he dropped $1k for a flight and missed work just to go see if someone was real, or... he is instantly wrong.

I'm not flying to Boston, NYC, SF, or Australia just to engage in patty cake with someone. If you are out of shape, Jedi mind tricks will only work for a bit.

On my side of the fence, GM DFW, Master Tat Mau Wong, ANY of the Hung Sing guys down in FL and HK, and ESPECIALLY the Buk Sing guys are all in remarkable shape, regardless of age. It's a side effect of good training.

You can't have it both ways bro.
Gracies have an open door policy.
Nothing wrong with it at all in my view.
As for Mr. Painter, I haven't seen the man in years but he was always big and strong, never ripped, just a big strong man.
I am sure you know the type.
Don't know if THAT is the case now, but you can always ask Dale, Painter is his GM.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The clip proves it for me. Lol. Defending this crap is bad for the martial arts.

What exactly do you SEE in those clips that is BS?
The "intent" thing? Old news in any MA
The body strike things?
Old news in any MA too.
Used it myself while bouncing quite a bit, taught to me by a fellow bouncer that was a wrestler ( though I had learned it in Kenjutsu before).

[sanjuro_ronin]

So that's your answer? Fat people are ruining martial arts? It should be part of solution...you're better than that Sanjuro. As a fat martial artist, I'll never be uber fit, I'm about 3 bills and can do 12-3 min rounds of intense heavy bag work with 30 sec rest periods...hardly impressive but its something I love to do and martial arts has been a key for keeping me motivated in better shape than I would without it.

It's a side show...there are fat martial artists who are quite athletic...lets not forget Sammo Hung. I think how you train, how you teach are far more important than how much you weigh.

I think you need to re-read my posts dude.

[Drake]

So that's your answer? Fat people are ruining martial arts? It should be part of solution...you're better than that Sanjuro. As a fat martial artist, I'll never be uber fit, I'm about 3 bills and can do 12-3 min rounds of intense heavy bag work with 30 sec rest periods...hardly impressive but its something I love to do and martial arts has been a key for keeping me motivated in better shape than I would without it.

It's a side show...there are fat martial artists who are quite athletic...lets not forget Sammo Hung. I think how you train, how you teach are far more important than how much you weigh.

Sammo Hung was very fit in his early days. He gained a lot of weight, and now he is having heart problems as a result. And ultimately, he is more of an actor/film producer than anything else.

[RWilson]

You can't have it both ways bro.
Gracies have an open door policy.
Nothing wrong with it at all in my view.
As for Mr. Painter, I haven't seen the man in years but he was always big and strong, never ripped, just a big strong man.
I am sure you know the type.
Don't know if THAT is the case now, but you can always ask Dale, Painter is his GM.

It is not okay to pretend to be a tough guy that ONLY smashes heads when people come to him instead of going out and proving his stuff works. That is way too easy.

Drake is right. It is dumb to spend all that money just to play slappy hand push hands with some old guy. That is not an open door policy. An open door policy is,"I will fight you to the death if you fuk with me." Not, "I will roll with you a little and we can go eat after."

[Drake]

You can't have it both ways bro.
Gracies have an open door policy.
Nothing wrong with it at all in my view.
As for Mr. Painter, I haven't seen the man in years but he was always big and strong, never ripped, just a big strong man.
I am sure you know the type.
Don't know if THAT is the case now, but you can always ask Dale, Painter is his GM.

Well... if Dale is his product, then I can't argue that he knows how to teach.

[David Jamieson]

This RWilson fella is pretty much just a troll dropping ill will and snide remarks here and there.

Not a productive individual worth engaging really.

crap attitude, always heavy with the snipes etc.

and so far he has posted nothing but rants against tcma.

personally, I just keep an eye on people like that here and eventually make them hate me. :mad:

lol. Just saying.

[Drake]

You can't have it both ways bro.
Gracies have an open door policy.
Nothing wrong with it at all in my view.
As for Mr. Painter, I haven't seen the man in years but he was always big and strong, never ripped, just a big strong man.
I am sure you know the type.
Don't know if THAT is the case now, but you can always ask Dale, Painter is his GM.

If I honored any open door policy, it would be the Buk Sing or San Soo folks. I'd get my ass KICKED, but man, would it be worth it...

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is not okay to pretend to be a tough guy that ONLY smashes heads when people come to him instead of going out and proving his stuff works. That is way too easy.

Drake is right. It is dumb to spend all that money just to play slappy hand push hands with some old guy. That is not an open door policy. An open door policy is,"I will fight you to the death if you fuk with me." Not, "I will roll with you a little and we can go eat after."

Excuses, excuses...

[Drake]

It is not okay to pretend to be a tough guy that ONLY smashes heads when people come to him instead of going out and proving his stuff works. That is way too easy.

Drake is right. It is dumb to spend all that money just to play slappy hand push hands with some old guy. That is not an open door policy. An open door policy is,"I will fight you to the death if you fuk with me." Not, "I will roll with you a little and we can go eat after."

That's not really what I was saying. I'm saying there is no argument on the internetz that will make me invest that much time and money. I'm not going to go fight someone to the death either. I have a family, and odds are he does too. I was citing that the investment isn't worth the return, and to say I'm wrong simply because I don't want to do it is also unfair..

[David Jamieson]

An open door policy is,"I will fight you to the death if you fuk with me." Not, "I will roll with you a little and we can go eat after."

what planet do you live on?
anyone coming through my door with that attitude isn't going to get a boxing lesson, they're going to get cut or worse.

go join an outfit that sport fights. enjoy it. that's all you gotta do if that's your focus.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's not really what I was saying. I'm saying there is no argument on the internetz that will make me invest that much time and money. I'm not going to go fight someone to the death either. I have a family, and odds are he does too. I was citing that the investment isn't worth the return, and to say I'm wrong simply because I don't want to do it is also unfair..

I have YET to see an open door policy that means that.
Unless you come full of **** and vineagre,in which case even the Gracies will break something, LOL !
It usually means that a person can come in and see what its all about and, if all are in agreement, even spar to "experience" the style.
People that come in with attitude usually just get shown the door.

[Drake]

I have YET to see an open door policy that means that.
Unless you come full of **** and vineagre,in which case even the Gracies will break something, LOL !
It usually means that a person can come in and see what its all about and, if all are in agreement, even spar to "experience" the style.
People that come in with attitude usually just get shown the door.

I was referring to RW Troll's assertion that I would go there for TeH Mortal Kombatz. I'm not flying to Boston to verify my internet assessment. That's a terrible waste of money, and my wife would be ****ED.

If I visit any school as part of travelling, it'll be my GM's.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I was referring to RW Troll's assertion that I would go there for TeH Mortal Kombatz. I'm not flying to Boston to verify my internet assessment. That's a terrible waste of money, and my wife would be ****ED.

If I visit any school as part of travelling, it'll be my GM's.

Ah, understood.
Lets be honest here guys, those of us that have been in the MA for a bit know a few guys that don't "look" like fighters but most definitly are.
We also know that many MA systems have esoteric training in "mental subsystems".
The only time those things become BS is when they are take out of the context they were developed for and passed off as something they are not.
I don't know if that is what Mr. Painter is doing and knowing his students, I doubt it very much.

[RWilson]

I have YET to see an open door policy that means that.
Unless you come full of **** and vineagre,in which case even the Gracies will break something, LOL !
It usually means that a person can come in and see what its all about and, if all are in agreement, even spar to "experience" the style.
People that come in with attitude usually just get shown the door.

I cannot tell if you guys actually believe your own bullsh1t. An open door policy means come talk, spar, see what I am all about? No. That is called a introduction class from a business perspective. Higher up managers in companies have an open door policy for people that want to complain about something so managers seem friendly and down to earth.

Traditionally, in the martial arts, a open door policy ALSO meant come fight me of you think I am full of crap. Otherwise sanjuro would not have been so macho when he proudly pronounced, "Sifu Painter had an open door policy.". You guys crack me up. I guess everyone has the bs version of sanjuro's open door policy to get students in the door.

[Hebrew Hammer]

I think you need to re-read my posts dude.

I stand corrected...lol...maybe I just need to be held. I did catch it a bit out of context. My apologies. Stay filthy my friend.

[ginosifu]

The question here at hand: Is there anything we can do about Charlatans, Snake Oil Salesman and all those degrading CMA.

The overall answer is NO

You will never stop that MA teacher cheating people down the street from you. You will never stop people from being gulable / a sucker.

As CMA teachers all we can do is be a good example for the community.

Public opinion: The public does not have the same opinion about Spears in the Throat and Yelling and screaming with Tooth pic Bo Staffs as the MA community. We as the MA community know better and can see thru charlatans and BSers. The public just goes ouuuuuuuuuuugh & aaaaaaaaaaaah as the guy breaks bricks on the corner of the steps. We can see he is lifting the brick right before he chops it in half, they do not.


Calling this crap martial or saying it will aide your martial arts cheapens martial arts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XI8JwLUako&feature=related


I was watching this clip and thought, "This guy moves fluidly." He talks about how certain postures help against an opponent but he does them in the air. His applications are not realistic. Doing forms and pulling techniques from the secrete chinese moves, imo, is a bad way to do techniques. There is no way to develop spontaneity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Byo1T04n1g&feature=related


I personally do not denigrate people who gain weight and stop doing real martial arts as they get older. The human machine has to rest eventually and cannot be going full tilt forever. Having said this I agree with you when we are talking about people teaching "self defense". They need to actually be able to do the techniques to teach them.

Here is another bs clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOZgabtgqks&feature=related

RWilson: I am not saying any of these guys can or can not fight. Or even if they can use the skills they are portraying on the vids. However, before you claim BS, you should touch hands with these teachers and actually se what they are about. To sit behind a computer a state people and their Kung Fu is no good or their skills are not viable is actually BS itself.

Before you call people out.... how about seeing what they are about first hand. Then you can say they suck or whatever.

ginosifu

[sanjuro_ronin]

I cannot tell if you guys actually believe your own bullsh1t. An open door policy means come talk, spar, see what I am all about? No. That is called a introduction class from a business perspective. Higher up managers in companies have an open door policy for people that want to complain about something so managers seem friendly and down to earth.

Traditionally, in the martial arts, a open door policy ALSO meant come fight me of you think I am full of crap. Otherwise sanjuro would not have been so macho when he proudly pronounced, "Sifu Painter had an open door policy.". You guys crack me up. I guess everyone has the bs version of sanjuro's open door policy to get students in the door.

That is what an open door policy means, come and test what I am offering.
What it doesn't mean and that was what my post was directed to, is "come and I will kill you".
Either you are reading posts out of context or you are just trolling.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt because I am so awesome.
That said, IF YOU have an issue with what Mr Painter is doing I am sure He or one of his students would be willing to help you out - no animosity at all.

[RWilson]

That is what an open door policy means, come and test what I am offering.
What it doesn't mean and that was what my post was directed to, is "come and I will kill you".
Either you are reading posts out of context or you are just trolling.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt because I am so awesome.
That said, IF YOU have an issue with what Mr Painter is doing I am sure He or one of his students would be willing to help you out - no animosity at all.

Based on the two clips I provided: if you wanted to learn how to fight would you go to Painter or a judo teacher? Honest answer, please.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Based on the two clips I provided: if you wanted to learn how to fight would you go to Painter or a judo teacher? Honest answer, please.

Judo teacher, 100%.
BUT I have also seen Mr.Painters stuff and those clips don't show squat, sorry.

[David Jamieson]

I would not take lessons in how to fight from a Judo teacher.

I would take lessons in Judo.

From those, I would incorporate the throws into how I fight.

Judo isn't really much of a fighting art. It has nothing to deal with being kicked, punched, attacked with a weapon etc. It's been degraded down to a pretty fast sport.

I guess if you went back 100 years, it could be useful in that context, but nowadays? It's pretty harmless.

[YouKnowWho]

That is what an open door policy means, come and test what I am offering.

This is a very TCMA attitude. If you think that you are good then come and show me what you have got.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would not take lessons in how to fight from a Judo teacher.

I would take lessons in Judo.

From those, I would incorporate the throws into how I fight.

Judo isn't really much of a fighting art. It has nothing to deal with being kicked, punched, attacked with a weapon etc. It's been degraded down to a pretty fast sport.

I guess if you went back 100 years, it could be useful in that context, but nowadays? It's pretty harmless.

Your lack of faith in the deadly Judo Chop is disturbing :D

[RWilson]

I would not take lessons in how to fight from a Judo teacher.

I would take lessons in Judo.

From those, I would incorporate the throws into how I fight.

Judo isn't really much of a fighting art. It has nothing to deal with being kicked, punched, attacked with a weapon etc. It's been degraded down to a pretty fast sport.

I guess if you went back 100 years, it could be useful in that context, but nowadays? It's pretty harmless.

So I guess judo people do not cross train? Of course they do. A judo man would make short work of you in a sparring match especially if you cannot fall and roll.

[Vajramusti]

So I guess judo people do not cross train? Of course they do. A judo man would make short work of you in a sparring match especially if you cannot fall and roll.
--------------------------------------------------------------
The troll has spoken~~

[ginosifu]

Your lack of faith in the deadly Judo Chop is disturbing :D

SR: You have miss spelled it. It is now called a "Judi Chop". Also not to be confused with the Karati Chop or the Ninji Chop. Watch here to get it right"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSrigvOX1AE

ginosifu

[RWilson]

--------------------------------------------------------------
The troll has spoken~~

And the guy who only does chi sao has spoken. It must suck to think you are learning the "most efficient style" and not be able to spar with it. Run back to the wc forum.

[Lucas]

i think its both. my judo teacher even says if you want just self defense go learn boxing or something like that. now personal experience tells me that the skill set you aquire in judo definately is applicable to self defense situations, more so if its a cross trained skill set that you combine with some form of striking art.

if someone only learns judo, and has to fight someone of an aquivelant skill in judo, but also has a striking background, the guy that can strike will destroy the judo man simply because he can pretty much strike him at will.

[RWilson]

i think its both. my judo teacher even says if you want just self defense go learn boxing or something like that. now personal experience tells me that the skill set you aquire in judo definately is applicable to self defense situations, more so if its a cross trained skill set that you combine with some form of striking art.

if someone only learns judo, and has to fight someone of an aquivelant skill in judo, but also has a striking background, the guy that can strike will destroy the judo man simply because he can pretty much strike him at will.

Agreed.

I would also add that if you have been studying a form based tcma, have no wrestling experience, and are in the same weight category as the judo guy, you will get tossed around like you are nothing.

[Drake]

So I guess judo people do not cross train? Of course they do. A judo man would make short work of you in a sparring match especially if you cannot fall and roll.

Judo is a sport. Literally. It's a sport. You are thinking of the combat version of judo, and it isn't called judo.

[Drake]

Agreed.

I would also add that if you have been studying a form based tcma, have no wrestling experience, and are in the same weight category as the judo guy, you will get tossed around like you are nothing.

What is this form-based TCMA you keep talking about? Forms are a part of many TCMAs, but they are never BASED off of forms. In fact, to make a real assessment like that, you'd be more accurate in saying Painful-Don't-Understand-Why-I-Am-Doing-This-Terribly-Difficult-Chore Strength and Endurance - Based TCMA.

Typically, you start with strength and conditioning long before you even touch a form.

[RWilson]

Judo is a sport. Literally. It's a sport. You are thinking of the combat version of judo, and it isn't called judo.

Lol. By calling it a sport you are seeking to negate the self defense aspects of it. Judo will make you have better skills for a fight than all the eagle claw chinna on the planet.

Have you heard the story of when Jigoro Kano had his "sport" judo guys spar the old school, too deadly to spar, jujitsu guys? The jujitsu guys got beaten swiftly. One of the great things about judo is the randori(sparring) at the end of each class. You think wc chi sao drills are better than judo randori?

Too much forms practice and not enough conditioning/sparring. Thy is the form based tcma I am always referring to.

[Drake]

Lol. By calling it a sport you are seeking to negate the self defense aspects of it. Judo will make you have better skills for a fight than all the eagle claw chinna on the planet.

Have you heard the story of when Jigoro Kano had his "sport" judo guys spar the old school, too deadly to spar, jujitsu guys? The jujitsu guys got beaten swiftly. One of the great things about judo is the randori(sparring) at the end of each class. You think wc chi sao drills are better than judo randori?

Too much forms practice and not enough conditioning/sparring. Thy is the form based tcma I am always referring to.

Who doesn't do conditioning or sparring? Nine star blocking is nothing BUT forearm conditioning. What school doesn't do sparring?

And yes, I am calling Judo a sport, because IT IS CLASSIFIED AS A SPORT. I'm not seeking ****. It's a god **** sport.

[RWilson]

Who doesn't do conditioning or sparring? Nine star blocking is nothing BUT forearm conditioning. What school doesn't do sparring?

And yes, I am calling Judo a sport, because IT IS CLASSIFIED AS A SPORT. I'm not seeking ****. It's a god **** sport.


Do you think the chi huggers in that ba gua video spar? Probably not. It is technically classified as a sport. So what? Does not make it any less martial than a style not classified as sport. Stop getting hung up on textbook definitions.

[Drake]

Do you think the chi huggers in that ba gua video spar? Probably not. It is technically classified as a sport. So what? Does not make it any less martial than a style not classified as sport. Stop getting hung up on textbook definitions.

I've done judo before. It is VERY much a sport. You are obviously biased, and that makes much of what you say already suspect, as they are leading questions. And now you are backpedaling... now you concede it IS a sport.

I'm going to take it a step further... Judo is NOT meant for combat. It never was. It wasn't even designed to be. Do your research.

[RWilson]

I've done judo before. It is VERY much a sport. You are obviously biased, and that makes much of what you say already suspect, as they are leading questions. And now you are backpedaling... now you concede it IS a sport.

I'm going to take it a step further... Judo is NOT meant for combat. It never was. It wasn't even designed to be. Do your research.


I am not backpedaling. Any winds blowing over 70 or so mph is classified as a hurricane. A low t-cell count is classified as HIV. The classifications are manmade and unimportant. The fact that they train more uncooperative than other schools makes them a more combat oriented style than say...too deadly to spar classical jujitsu.

Randori allows for smart spontaneous reactions which are very important for a fight. Doing push ups and visualizing multiple opponents while doing kata just does not compare. Kano invented it to make the bodies of Japanese people stronger because they were not getting enough exercise. The by product of such training is better reactions. Try thinking out of the box instead of reading textbook definitions.

[RWilson]

Wing chun is classified as a fighting style and look at the crao they do. ClassIfications mean nothing.

[Drake]

I am not backpedaling. Any winds blowing over 70 or so mph is classified as a hurricane. A low t-cell count is classified as HIV. The classifications are manmade and unimportant. The fact that they train more uncooperative than other schools makes them a more combat oriented style than say...too deadly to spar classical jujitsu.

Randori allows for smart spontaneous reactions which are very important for a fight. Doing push ups and visualizing multiple opponents while doing kata just does not compare. Kano invented it to make the bodies of Japanese people stronger because they were not getting enough exercise. The by product of such training is better reactions. Try thinking out of the box instead of reading textbook definitions.

There you go...making the ridiculous assertions that you are always complaining about. Are you here just to complain about TCMA? Because that's what it sounds like. You are either lying or ignorant when you say judo has the most uncooperative opponents. Same with your weird reference to low T-Cells (I studied immunology briefly as an undergrad).

You are making sweeping generalizations. You have subscribed, seemingly with zeal, to every logical fallacy that has ever been documented. You lie and make things up to defend things under the pretense of asking a question, and you mock every other style except the one you like. You sir, have been placed on ignore. I'm not wasting another ounce of typing on you and your utterly ridiculous inability to accept anything but your own fantasy interpretation of the world.

[Dragonzbane76]

I think WC kicked it's own a$$ a long time ago with the internal politics that made them look stupid so now no one takes them seriously. might be off on that but I doubt.

[Lucas]

i do judo, its definately a sport, but can and does operate outside of the confines of its sport model. like most things, its all about your intention.

whats your goal? do you want to get the guy down and then follow him down for a fully controled body pin, choke or armbar? or do you want to drop the guy and follow him down, pass guard, get full mount and start to gnp until he chokes on his teeth? judo can get you to both of those, it just depends on how and why you are training.

arguably the choke and armbar/break can be a successful ending in a confrontation, under the right circumstances. but i'd wager you're always safer and more mobile over all if you are to pass guard and ko the guy.

it also HIGHLY depends on the judo club you're in.

[RWilson]

Here is a question for you, Drake. You seem to be hung up on manmade classifications.

How do the martial arts, which are not classified as sport like many tcma, train you to fight better than a sport martial art.

How does long fist train you better for combat than judo or boxing?

How does northern mantis train you better than sport muay Thai for combat? Do you even know? What is the exact methodology the non-sport arts use?

[Dragonzbane76]

but can and does operate outside of the confines of its sport model. like most things, its all about your intention.

Agree, as with anything it can be taken out of the box. mma/JJ/Judo/wrestling/etc. My thoughts are if you are on the ground and have the stated backgrounds you have a better chance than the other guy.

[Lucas]

in terms of the longfist vs judo/boxing i think the main difference (provided you've found a school that trains traditional long fist and not just some modern wushu version of longfist) then longfist already incorporates throwing and striking into a comprehensive progressive study of fighting.

where as judo is missing the majority of the striking and boxing is missing not only the throws/takedown but also the legs. (not saying you need kicking at all, but it doesnt hurt)

i personally believe that at the end of the day, you're going to be better off if you have an understanding of striking and a wrestling in terms of personal self defense.

of course you can always just learn judo and boxing and be just as well off :p

i went to judo to really develop a throwing game and understanding. and more importantly...takedown defense :D

[Dragonzbane76]

How does northern mantis train you better than sport muay Thai for combat? Do you even know? What is the exact methodology the non-sport arts use?

you come across rough, but honestly that is a dam good question. not pointing at drake but overall it's a good question.

[Dale Dugas]

And the guy who only does chi sao has spoken. It must suck to think you are learning the "most efficient style" and not be able to spar with it. Run back to the wc forum.


You sir, are a tool.

[RWilson]

you come across rough, but honestly that is a dam good question. not pointing at drake but overall it's a good question.

Thank you for the compliment.

Drake is harping that judo is classified as a sport and was not meant for combat. Northern mantis was "meant" for combat. So the logical question is...how does the northern non sport mantis teach you REAL combat since it was meant for that? According to Drake judo teaches fake combat.


No name calling, Dale. Or I will have to bring up that your teacher John Biff Painter photoshopped himself into a picture to make it look like he studied with someone he did not. Or something. Lol. Did he use his Jedi mind tricks on you to keep studying with him after people found out about that? You have never provided a good response to this.

Sanjuro was right. He does have mind powers.

[RWilson]

Sanjuro,

Should I find Ashida Kim and see if he has something to teach?

[Dale Dugas]

again with oral drek from cowards.

KFO has become a haven for cowards who do nothing but bad mouth people and hide.

Gene, this really paints a picture that this kind of behavior is acceptable here on KFO where it is unacceptable on other forums where people agree it is not wanted.

:(

[RWilson]

Should I seek out Dr Haha Lung wrote the book "mental dominance". He writes books on ninja mind control like Ashida Kim. Do I seek them out, even though they are definite frauds, or only seek out people YOU believe to be skilled and who might be frauds.

[Drake]

I agree with Dale. And besides... it is obviously MysteriousPowers back from the cyberdead...

[Lee Chiang Po]

Who's to be the judge?
ME of course :D


I see your point, but then everyone wants to be the judge. I chose #1. I thought about it a bit first, and decided that in my own opinion this is the biggest disgrace. When we see groups doing these on stage demonstrations, doing their parlor tricks to entice people to come and join them, it makes me wonder about a lot of things. Why do people even open a kwoon and teach gung fu? Because it benefits them financially of course. No one would take on the misery and aggrivation just to carry on the style or whatever. They would only do it for the bucks really. When these guys do these parlor tricks, it is to entice the public into paying them money to learn this fantastic skill. Only by the time you realize it is BS, they have already made off with a large amount of your bucks.

These same BS artists spread the fantasy of gung fu, and they are the ones to defame the whole idea of most all martial arts. As individuals they might have good gung fu, but just being good is not going to make them wealthy. It requires them to look like supermen, with fantastic skills far out and above the mere mortal. enough to make you want to spend large bucks to join them.
What other people do, teaching without ever having to fight, such things as that, do not defame the arts. What does it matter? He can still most likely whip any average fighter if he has to. You don't have to prove it to teach it. Just know what the heck you are talking about.

[RWilson]

again with oral drek from cowards.

KFO has become a haven for cowards who do nothing but bad mouth people and hide.

Gene, this really paints a picture that this kind of behavior is acceptable here on KFO where it is unacceptable on other forums where people agree it is not wanted.

:(

Do not cop out, Dale. Explain Biff Painter's photoshop debacle. You ignore it because you know he screwed up trying to make up thobgs about his background. You cannot even defend him it was so bad.

[Northwind]

I'd have to add...those that consider any association of the Chinese word "Qi" to mean "mystical" anything...

[IronFist]

How does northern mantis train you better than sport muay Thai for combat? Do you even know? What is the exact methodology the non-sport arts use?

Dropping truth bombs.

According to half the people in this thread, the FIGHTING ART of [insert TCMA style of your choice] makes you a better fighter than the SPORT of Muay Thai or BJJ.

Funny how all those professional fighters use Muay Thai and BJJ. Don't those silly guys know some TKD guy is just waiting to kick their ass? Some hardcore FIGHTING ART kungfu/karate/whatever guy is going to come destroy them with their FIGHTING ART.

Oh wait, they already tried that. See the beginning of UFC when TCMA won every time (surely you remember when Gracie got KOed by the Karate guy with only 6 months of experience in his FIGHTING ART of Karate, silly Gracie with his years of study in the SPORT of BJJ thought he had a chance) and eventually TCMA was ruled TOO DEADLY FOR THE RING and so all of the fighters had to switch over to the SPORT Muay Thai and BJJ techniques which are infinitely less effective and LESS DEADLY than the FIGHTING ART techniques of TCMA.

FIGHTING arts > SPORT arts

http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

[Northwind]

FIGHTING arts > SPORT arts



Egotistic and willfully ignorant people > Folks who dont care about UFC, rings etc. and simply defend themselves and those they care for

[crazy-eyed-emote-I-dont-know-how-to-re-create]

[RWilson]

Egotistic and willfully ignorant people > Folks who dont care about UFC, rings etc. and simply defend themselves and those they care for

[crazy-eyed-emote-I-dont-know-how-to-re-create]

This was not meant to be an mma vs tcma discussion when I started it. Drake ignorantly said that judo was a sport and never meant for combat. He said the skills you learn are not useful in a fight. He knows because hen"studied" judo for who knows how long.

So I looked at arts that were, by textbook definition, combat arts. All Kung fu is supposed to be combat oriented. My question was and still is: how do these styles made for combat train you better for fighting than sport styles? What is the exact way?

Drake mentioned banging the forearms to make them harder. Is this to help crush the person to death if needed?

[IronFist]

Drake mentioned banging the forearms to make them harder. Is this to help crush the person to death if needed?

I always assumed that was so if you incidentally got hit in the forearms, it wouldn't hurt so bad that it caused you to stop for a moment and go "ow!" which would interfere with your flow and possibly cause you to lose the fight.

I don't think anyone goes around hitting people with their inner forearms.

I think it can also help with "bridging," which seems to be commonplace in many TCMA systems, where there is a lot of forearm contact. Not trying to open a can of worms here but I haven't really seen much "bridging" in real fighting as bridging generally requires leaving the arms at least somewhat extended which, much like "reaching" for punches, is usually thought to be a no-no in fighting.

[Northwind]

So I see that we do still have folks trying to do the whole tcma is useless thing. OMG when will you people grow up?

[RWilson]

in terms of the longfist vs judo/boxing i think the main difference (provided you've found a school that trains traditional long fist and not just some modern wushu version of longfist) then longfist already incorporates throwing and striking into a comprehensive progressive study of fighting.

where as judo is missing the majority of the striking and boxing is missing not only the throws/takedown but also the legs. (not saying you need kicking at all, but it doesnt hurt)

i personally believe that at the end of the day, you're going to be better off if you have an understanding of striking and a wrestling in terms of personal self defense.

of course you can always just learn judo and boxing and be just as well off :p

i went to judo to really develop a throwing game and understanding. and more importantly...takedown defense :D


You said longest has all of these things giving it a leg up on judo. But how does longfist train these strikes/throws differently than sport arts?

If a guy who studied "real" longfist sparred with a guy who did kickboxing/judo would the longfist guy fair well?

What is the "real" longfist training, how is it different than sport training, and will it produce better skills?

I find it amusing that NOBODY can answer this question.

[RWilson]

I always assumed that was so if you incidentally got hit in the forearms, it wouldn't hurt so bad that it caused you to stop for a moment and go "ow!" which would interfere with your flow and possibly cause you to lose the fight.

I don't think anyone goes around hitting people with their inner forearms.

I think it can also help with "bridging," which seems to be commonplace in many TCMA systems, where there is a lot of forearm contact. Not trying to open a can of worms here but I haven't really seen much "bridging" in real fighting as bridging generally requires leaving the arms at least somewhat extended which, much like "reaching" for punches, is usually thought to be a no-no in fighting.

I was being sarcastic since Drake put it as anexample of tcma conditiOning. Tcma's might want to put more time into sprints so they can run away in case gong training fails.

[RWilson]

I also find it amusing how Dale runs to Gene for a possible banning because he cannot string together two sentences to make a coherent argument. Dale, all you can do is become belligerent and name call. You have no technical knowledge outside of your little ba gua cult.

Ironfist brought up useless training and then training that harder. Ba gua circle walking is useless for fighting and you do it with a weighted vest on. Wonderful. What is next? Doing qi gong in the cold naked to make you stronger in case you get attacked in the cold?

[David Jamieson]

i think its both. my judo teacher even says if you want just self defense go learn boxing or something like that. now personal experience tells me that the skill set you aquire in judo definately is applicable to self defense situations, more so if its a cross trained skill set that you combine with some form of striking art.

if someone only learns judo, and has to fight someone of an equivalent skill in judo, but also has a striking background, the guy that can strike will destroy the judo man simply because he can pretty much strike him at will.

Any martial arts can teach you techs and skills that you can use. You still have to train them to be able to use them and to be able to use them as secondary actions is what takes time. There is no quick fix no matter what route you take.

this vs that conversations in regards to martial arts are all requiring context.
It is literally retarded to stay with the argument.

But I digress...

[-N-]

Drake mentioned banging the forearms to make them harder. Is this to help crush the person to death if needed?

Yes.

It looks like a long hook or a hammer fist. But they really are forearm smashes to the temple, neck, face, elbow etc for closer range.

That's why you shouldn't cheat like how YKW was joking.

[bawang]

iron arm is no match for the tyrannical claw.

[IronFist]

Any martial arts can teach you techs and skills that you can use. You still have to train them to be able to use them and to be able to use them as secondary actions is what takes time.

This is correct.

Well, I assume you meant "you have to train them to be able to use them."

Many TMA schools don't do the part I put in brackets.

That being said, I think that when people start training [I]against resisting opponents, it quickly becomes apparent what techniques are worthwhile and which ones are worthless.

All MA would likely evolve into something similar looking if they trained against resisting opponents.

It's only when you have the leaving punches extended (punches that wouldn't have even made contact in the first place) nonsense that you end up with people who have a repertoire of worthless techniques even if they practice them to the level of proficiency.

[-N-]

Well, I assume you meant "you have to train them [in a realistic manner against resisting opponents] to be able to use them."

Many TMA schools don't do the part I put in brackets.
.

If they aren't training that part, then they aren't traditional. They aren't "T", and they might not even be "MA".

[-N-]

iron arm is no match for the tyrannical claw.

Actually, tranny claw was a mistranslation of octopus.

[David Jamieson]

Actually, tranny claw was a mistranslation of octopus.

pretty sure it was a starfish. a brown one to be precise.

[IronFist]

If they aren't training that part, then they aren't traditional. They aren't "T", and they might not even be "MA".

Nice reverse logic.

"If it's not [effective] then it's obviously not TMA"

Show me two men fighting and after the winner emerges, I will tell you which of the two men trains in a traditional manner. :D

[Drake]

Nice reverse logic.

"If it's not [effective] then it's obviously not TMA"

Show me two men fighting and after the winner emerges, I will tell you which of the two men trains in a traditional manner. :D

Put a judo dude in a match with a CLF guy... preferably Buk Sing, see how that turns out. They are quite traditional. :D

[Drake]

Or a traditional San Soo guy...

[RWilson]

Or a traditional San Soo guy...

Not if most san soo is trained in this philosophical non-sparring manner...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yyu5m2sz0B4


This is how most kung fu is trained. There are so many buk sing clf guys fighting in mma that it must be a viable fighting style...lol.

Clf was a viable fighting style against wing chun but then again so is every fighting style against wing chun.

[-N-]

Nice reverse logic.

"If it's not [effective] then it's obviously not TMA"


Sorry. You are mistaken about what I said.

[YouKnowWho]

RWilson and IronFist:

For some unknown reason that both of you guys think that TCMA guys can't fight. Here are 3 clips. Those 2 American guys in those clips have NO training in boxing, MT, wrestling, Judo, BJJ. They used 100% TCMA longfist, and TCMA SC.

Unleass you can do as they did in those clips, please show some respect to TCMA in general.

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/9343/mygroup.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZqr2jtwlTk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcpm80Js-Ho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISZ7A5zF_fQ

Here is a "demo" just to show how hard that they trained.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L53rUCAkmZs

[RWilson]

RWilson and IronFist:

For some unknown reason that both of you guys think that TCMA guys can't fight. Here are 3 clips. Those 2 American guys in those clips have NO training in boxing, MT, wrestling, Judo, BJJ. They used 100% TCMA longfist, and TCMA SC.

Unleass you can do as they did in those clips, please show some respect to TCMA in general.

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/9343/mygroup.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZqr2jtwlTk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcpm80Js-Ho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISZ7A5zF_fQ


San shao is not tcma. It is combined some parts of tcma with modern SPORT training...aka lots of sparring.

This is tcma training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCTICwysYLo&feature=related


Notice how tcma people only have sanshao to point to when discussing real fighters. Where are the real clf fighters? The mantis fighters? The wc greats who are still living?

[YouKnowWho]

modern SPORT training...
The sport training is not modern.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o21UWYy-5IQ

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=san+pu+yin&hl=en&sa=X&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4PPST_enUS398US398&biw=1344&bih=715&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=tIib1uPEhBRJjM:&imgrefurl=http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D3%26t%3D10724&docid=X8Pil-E6zciQpM&itg=1&imgurl=http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1770/11565357.jpg&w=600&h=294&ei=rKPRTv-KOo79iQKFsdjbCw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=635&vpy=173&dur=1342&hovh=157&hovw=321&tx=188&ty=109&sig=116465857359910340157&page=1&tbnh=100&tbnw=204&start=0&ndsp=17&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=san+pu+yin&hl=en&sa=X&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4PPST_enUS398US398&biw=1344&bih=715&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=qy26teQuS-2_WM:&imgrefurl=http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php%3Ft%3D58690%26page%3D3&docid=G8g-m-EmROyBmM&imgurl=http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2764/25146825.jpg&w=600&h=308&ei=rKPRTv-KOo79iQKFsdjbCw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=163&vpy=171&dur=11&hovh=161&hovw=314&tx=185&ty=91&sig=116465857359910340157&page=1&tbnh=105&tbnw=204&start=0&ndsp=17&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0

[-N-]

They used 100% TCMA longfist, and TCMA SC.


Traditional guys know that both of these are the same.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/download.gif

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/img_memorial2.gif

If you train the form but not the usage, it's your own fault.

[Lucas]

sorry i dont normally log on during the weekend.



You said longest has all of these things giving it a leg up on judo. But how does longfist train these strikes/throws differently than sport arts?
well in comparison to strictly judo, yes. as judo does not do in depth, intensive striking. (some do none at all) that is the draw back of being strictly a judoka. in terms of striking, longfist, handsdown, has better striking training than judo. its not even a close comparison man...in terms of throws, judo would demolish longfist. but a longfist guy isnt wholy ignorant on the subject.


If a guy who studied "real" longfist sparred with a guy who did kickboxing/judo would the longfist guy fair well?
of course it all depends, but i think he could 'hold his own'. a better comparison would be a longfist/shuai jiao guy vs a judo/kickboxer. thats like saying who would win a thai boxer or a kickboxer/judo guy? duh, the guy with more training has an upper hand. make it an even training equivelant though and things change a bit.


What is the "real" longfist training, how is it different than sport training, and will it produce better skills?

I find it amusing that NOBODY can answer this question.

'real' longfist simply means a non modern wushu training hall...the main difference would be the training tools used, such as equipment, form, stance, etc.

you still spend lots of hours sparring, drills, bag, pads, etc...think...um...kickboxing with a bit of throwing.

[IronFist]

RWilson and IronFist:

For some unknown reason that both of you guys think that TCMA guys can't fight. Here are 3 clips. Those 2 American guys in those clips have NO training in boxing, MT, wrestling, Judo, BJJ. They used 100% TCMA longfist, and TCMA SC.

Unleass you can do as they did in those clips, please show some respect to TCMA in general.

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/9343/mygroup.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZqr2jtwlTk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcpm80Js-Ho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISZ7A5zF_fQ

Here is a "demo" just to show how hard that they trained.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L53rUCAkmZs

Nothing wrong with those clips. Although the last clip was choreographed, but I know that's what a lot of schools do for demos. The dude did a high kick and the other dude reached down with an arm and pulled his leg up and tripped him. Sorry, that's never happening in a real fight.

San Shou is not TCMA though. It's similar to MMA. No forms, no flowery nonsense, realistic training with partners that hit back, no techniques that rely on fine motor coordination. Oh, and the fighting stances are pretty close to boxing/MMA stances. No side stances, no yee gee kim yeung ma, no keeping a fist at the waist. It's basically the opposite of TCMA.

You can't show San Shou clips as evidence that TCMA is effective for fighting.

[Drake]

Nothing wrong with those clips. Although the last clip was choreographed, but I know that's what a lot of schools do for demos. The dude did a high kick and the other dude reached down with an arm and pulled his leg up and tripped him. Sorry, that's never happening in a real fight.

San Shou is not TCMA though. It's similar to MMA. No forms, no flowery nonsense, realistic training with partners that hit back, no techniques that rely on fine motor coordination. Oh, and the fighting stances are pretty close to boxing/MMA stances. No side stances, no yee gee kim yeung ma, no keeping a fist at the waist. It's basically the opposite of TCMA.

You can't show San Shou clips as evidence that TCMA is effective for fighting.

I'm sorry, but did you just say with a straight face that San Shou isn't TCMA? :confused:

[IronFist]

I'm sorry, but did you just say with a straight face that San Shou isn't TCMA? :confused:

San Shou is "traditional" in the same way BJJ and Muay Thai are "traditional."

Even if San Shou was TMA the same way Karate, WC, TKD, etc. are, it's entirely different from all the TMAs being discussed in this thread so far.

[Drake]

San Shou is "traditional" in the same way BJJ and Muay Thai are "traditional."

Even if San Shou was TMA the same way Karate, WC, TKD, etc. are, it's entirely different from all the TMAs being discussed in this thread so far.

"Sanshou (Chinese: 散手; pinyin: sǎnshǒu; literally "free hand") or Sanda (Chinese: 散打; pinyin: sǎndǎ; literally "free fighting") or an "unsanctioned fight" is a Chinese hand-to-hand self-defense system and combat sport. Sanshou is a martial art which was originally developed by the Chinese military based upon the intense study and practices of traditional Kung Fu and modern combat fighting techniques; it combines full-contact kickboxing, which include punches and kicks, wrestling, takedowns, throws, sweeps, kick catches, and in some competitions, even elbow and knee strikes.

Not seen as a style itself, rather it is considered as just one of the two components of Chinese martial arts training and is often taught alongside with taolu (forms) training. However, as part of the development of sport wushu by the Chinese government, a standard curriculum for sanshou was developed. It is to this standard curriculum that the term "Sanshou" is usually applied.

This curriculum was developed with reference to traditional Chinese martial arts. This general Sanshou curriculum varies in its different forms, as the Chinese government developed a version for civilians for self-defense and as a sport."

So...yeah...

[IronFist]

Even ginosifu, vehement TCMA defender, agrees with me that San Shou is not TCMA (link to the quote left intact since it was in another thread)


San Shou is not TCMA

[IronFist]

Really though, let's cut the BS.

If it looks like boxing/MT/San Shou, it's not "TMA."

If it looks like WC/CLF/Karate/TKD, it's TMA.

If you stand in a boxing stance, it's not TMA.

If you train WC and look like a kickboxer when you fight, you're not fighting with WC.

On a related note, if you don't fight the way you train, you're doing it wrong. Why would you train different neurological pathways than you're actually going to be using? That's horribly inefficient. Why would I bother training tan sao, bong sao, etc, if when I fight I'm going to shell up? The time would be better spent training shell defense to become more efficient at it. Why train in a sideways TKD stance if I'm going to fight in a boxing stance? It makes no sense.

[Drake]

How is CLF not TCMA?!?!

[IronFist]

How is CLF not TCMA?!?!

It is.

I said "If it looks like WC/CLF/Karate/TKD, it's TMA."

[hskwarrior]

If you train WC and look like a kickboxer when you fight, you're not fighting with WC.

Because of its traditional fighting stance wing chun has it the worst because anytime they use a different fighting stance people start calling them out and saying its not wing chun. those inwardly bent knee's must be a thorn in their side.

"Sanshou is a martial art which was originally developed by the Chinese military based upon the intense study and practices of traditional Kung Fu and modern combat fighting techniques; it combines full-contact kickboxing, which include punches and kicks, wrestling, takedowns, throws, sweeps, kick catches, and in some competitions, even elbow and knee strikes.

Not seen as a style itself, rather it is considered as just one of the two components of Chinese martial arts training and is often taught alongside with taolu (forms) training. However, as part of the development of sport wushu by the Chinese government, a standard curriculum for sanshou was developed. It is to this standard curriculum that the term "Sanshou" is usually applied."

[David Jamieson]

Really though, let's cut the BS.

If it looks like boxing/MT/San Shou, it's not "TMA."

If it looks like WC/CLF/Karate/TKD, it's TMA.

If you stand in a boxing stance, it's not TMA.



Not necessarily true. Any of these.

Martial arts is number one about having the guts to do it.
Then it is about how much you can give and get (strength/conditioning/endurance)
The last thing it is about is tech and style.

If you are in a sporting situation, it's all gonna look like kickboxing whether it's traditional or not. Look at MT. That's traditional and oh, it looks like kickboxing, albeit a little stylized.

It doesn't have to look like fictional nonsense to be good kung fu.

[IronFist]

If you are in a sporting situation, it's all gonna look like kickboxing whether it's traditional or not. Look at MT. That's traditional and oh, it looks like kickboxing, albeit a little stylized.


That's because human fighting looks like kickboxing/Muay Thai/MMA/San Shou. It doesn't look like WC, CLF, TKD, Karate or any other TMA.


It doesn't have to look like fictional nonsense to be good kung fu.

Even if that's true, if you train one way and fight another way, you're wasting your time training because it's not improving the skills for fighting.

It's like shooting hoops to improve your baseball pitch. It makes no sense.

Why would I do TKD if I'm going to fight like a boxer? Why? So I can hop in the ring and do some crappy boxing that I haven't ever practiced and then say I fight with TKD? All the "training" then was for nothing.

[-N-]

If you stand in a boxing stance, it's not TMA.

Boxing stance is the same as monkey stance in Praying Mantis.

And here is Floyd Mayweather doing horse stance steal heart punch all day long.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwfcvVP957o

[David Jamieson]

That's because human fighting looks like kickboxing/Muay Thai/MMA/San Shou. It doesn't look like WC, CLF, TKD, Karate or any other TMA.



Even if that's true, if you train one way and fight another way, you're wasting your time training because it's not improving the skills for fighting.

It's like shooting hoops to improve your baseball pitch. It makes no sense.

Why would I do TKD if I'm going to fight like a boxer? Why? So I can hop in the ring and do some crappy boxing that I haven't ever practiced and then say I fight with TKD? All the "training" then was for nothing.

how is training different?

Kung Fu people hit the bag, hit the mitts, spar etc.

Beginners? not so much, most of them barely have a handle on their body.

for instance you ever tell someone how to do something in real time and have to explain it to them 3 or 4 times? Yeah, that happens ALL the time.

things like : "use your middle finger" (they use their index), you tell them again, the STILL use their index! You physically correct them finally and they do it AGAIN!

I call this the brain fence. It is an aspect of the ego that sets you up to fail while being instructed because you are convinced that no one has anything to teach you. lol. It takes time to work that out of ourselves. Sometimes all it takes is a punch in the face! :p

[TenTigers]

There are no absolutes:
Boxing stance is similar to many Hakka Kuen stances.
Duncan Leung's Wing Chun bai jong has a shorter guard (mun sao/wu sao) possibly due to fights with other styles such as CLF who liked to smash the mun sao when it was too extended.
you guys seem to garner all your info not from direct experience, so your information is skewed.

[-N-]

And here is Floyd Mayweather doing horse stance steal heart punch all day long.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwfcvVP957o

And notice the one time he got a knockdown with the body shot was when he used a low wide driving stance, which is the same as what TCMA teaches.

[Lucas]

thats a standard longfist punch. probably standard to a lot of systems too.

[IronFist]

how is training different?

Kung Fu people hit the bag, hit the mitts, spar etc.

Heavy metal musicians play notes on guitar.

Country musicians play notes on guitar.

How is heavy metal different from country music? They both play notes on guitar!

[Lucas]

heavy metal is better thats how!!:mad:

the only thing good about country music is the women.

[Drake]

Heavy metal musicians play notes on guitar.

Country musicians play notes on guitar.

How is heavy metal different from country music? They both play notes on guitar!

Simplicity does not serve this conversation.

How are they similar?

Both have Jazz as a background

Both apply virtually identical foundations of western musical styles

Timing and beats follow a generally universal standard

With minor variations, the same instruments are used

The chords used do not differ much at all


Most western music follows the same fundamentals as applied to Jazz. Beats per second, timings, bass/treble annotation, same instruments, many times the same equipment.


I'm sorry, but at what point are we willing to go full retard trying to hold on to a point we know doesn't make sense?

[IronFist]

heavy metal is better thats how!!:mad:

the only thing good about country music is the women.

We are in agreement, sir.

[IronFist]

Simplicity does not serve this conversation.

How are they similar?

Both have Jazz as a background

Both apply virtually identical foundations of western musical styles

Timing and beats follow a generally universal standard

With minor variations, the same instruments are used

The chords used do not differ much at all


Most western music follows the same fundamentals as applied to Jazz. Beats per second, timings, bass/treble annotation, same instruments, many times the same equipment.


I'm sorry, but at what point are we willing to go full retard trying to hold on to a point we know doesn't make sense?

Seriously?

Saying TMA and MMA are the same because they both hit the bag and both hit the mitts is the same as saying heavy metal and country music are the same because they both play notes on a guitar.

[Drake]

Seriously?

Saying TMA and MMA are the same because they both hit the bag and both hit the mitts is the same as saying heavy metal and country music are the same because they both play notes on a guitar.

You are confusing what you are saying with what I am saying.

You are comparing apples and oranges, and struggling with it as well.

[IronFist]

So if I'm doing the samba can I call it the traditional tango since both are dancing and involve moving the feet?

[David Jamieson]

So if I'm doing the samba can I call it the traditional tango since both are dancing and involve moving the feet?

nope, but no matter what, you are dancing.

you can make all the divisions you like, box things up in tidy categories, but the fact of the matter is that music is music, dancing is dancing, fighting is fighting, drinking is drinking, screwing is screwing and so on.

Good, bad, indifferent, no matter because the root always is more to the branch than the branch is to the root.