The tough thing about teaching martial arts.

[Golden Arms]

Iron Fist's thread on cheapening the arts brought to mind a few observations I have had over the years:

1. Not everyone is wired to be a warrior. Even among those that are, there are tiers. The military is a good example of this, becoming a special operator tests the mental and emotional wiring just as much if not more than it does the physical attributes. This is an inconvenient truth that many in MA choose to overlook, and were you to survey martial arts students and teachers alike, you would likely find that their thoughts on what they are capable of may vary quite a bit from what they actually are capable of.

2. There are often not enough students that want to fight and get banged up out there to run a successful school that teaches only this aspect of the martial arts, yet that is exactly what these arts are based around at their core, or at least in some cases, were when created.

3. Some people that attend classes but are not there to fight have other talents that they bring to the equation, such as being sort of a social "glue" for the group, good with organizing and helping things run smoothly, etc. If we cut them from the equation then we make things much tougher and often less desirable across the board from a logistics standpoint, but if we accept them, we must accept that we are teaching people that are not likely to become fighters, a common complaint about martial arts is that a person that has been around for 10+ years cannot fight.

So it appears that if someone wished to teach only fighters in a non sport specific discipline, it means that they are going to potentially be teaching out of pocket, likely struggle with students leaving and small numbers of students to work with in the first place. No wonder there is not more of the good stuff out there.

;)

[YouKnowWho]

The tough thing about teaching martial arts.

IMO, the tough thing about teaching TCMA is the Gong development. If your student doesn't want to put time into it, there is nothing that you can do about it. When a student's technique doesn't work, he will complain that the technique is no good instead of admitting that his Gong has not yet been fully developed.

[RickMatz]

I knew an aikido teacher who made his living as a fireman.

He was paid reasonably well, had great health insurance, other benefits and a pension. He worked about 1 week a month, albeit 24/7 during that week.

That REALLY lowered the bar for what he had to make at his aikido school to keep it open.

He taught aikido when he wasn't putting out fires and had a senior student supervise the others practice their testing techniques when he was.

[SPJ]

The tough thing about teaching martial arts.

IMO, the tough thing about teaching TCMA is the Gong development. If your student doesn't want to put time into it, there is nothing that you can do about it. When a student's technique doesn't work, he will complain that the technique is no good instead of admitting that his Gong has not yet been fully developed.

yes. the teacher only give the students some guidance.

the rest is really upto the student to practice or drill to perfection both in timing and power structure or gong.

shi fu ling jin men

xiu xing zhai ge ren.

:cool:

[Shaolin]

The problem is the school owners/instructors. The way I read your post Golden Arms is in all three examples the "people" (students) are the problem. This is not true. The problem is the instructors aren't good business men. If you have a problem in your business or in the industry itself create a solution don't redirect the blame.

The prospects coming in to inquire are reluctant to sign up or even try a class because of the fear of getting hurt, which is a legitimate concern. You are correct in your statement "Not everyone is wired to be a warrior." Keep in mind though that even top tier fighters get nervous before a bout. So instead of the instructor getting frustrated and thinking they have to have a fight gym and struggle keeping students while working a day job or sell out with a no contact type school that practices kata all day and pretends to be fighters , they need to create a way to bridge the two.

I challenge you other school owners/instructors; how do you ethically sign up a new student that's not interested in sparring because they're afraid and still get them to spar and learn quality fighting skills?

[YouKnowWho]

a new student that's not interested in sparring ...
In the begining of your class, you can divide your students into 2 circles. The person on the inside circle will have to spar the person on the outside circle. After 1 minutes, you can ask the inside circle to shift one person to the left. This way everybody will have chance to spar with everyday. Since everybody are busy sparring, nobody is watching, there won't be any ego involved. If you call this as part of the "warm up", after a period of time, your students won't feel that sparring is that hard at all.

[IronFist]

Good thread.

I wasn't saying only teach fighters. I have no problem with people teaching the other stuff. I'm saying it shouldn't be taught under the pretense of being a martial art that you can rely upon to defend yourself.

Run schools that teach pretty forms and other dances with weapons. Not everyone wants to be a warrior. Just don't call it martial arts, because it's not. Call it martial arts inspired fitness or something like that.

It's kind of like how being good at Guitar Hero doesn't mean you can play guitar.

[IronFist]

I challenge you other school owners/instructors; how do you ethically sign up a new student that's not interested in sparring because they're afraid and still get them to spar and learn quality fighting skills?

"We will teach you whatever you want to know, but be aware that without sparring against a resisting opponent, it is not likely that you will develop the skills to defend yourself in an actual confrontation."

[IronFist]

The tough thing about teaching martial arts.

IMO, the tough thing about teaching TCMA is the Gong development. If your student doesn't want to put time into it, there is nothing that you can do about it. When a student's technique doesn't work, he will complain that the technique is no good instead of admitting that his Gong has not yet been fully developed.

This presupposes he's being taught a useful technique in the first place.

Otherwise it's just "guru" nonsense.

(referring to a technique done in class with a partner where the partner leaves his arm extended after the punch for the student to perform some intricate counter attack on)

Student: "Sifu, my 10 hit punch counter didn't work and I got beaten up! I don't get it!"

Scammy Sifu: "that's because your gong is not yet developed. Practice it 1,000 more times!"

*Student walks away being mislead and following the wrong path*

There is so much of this type of stuff in TCMA that a student may have excellent gong, but he's spent his time practicing the wrong stuff.

Like a karate guy who practices high block + reverse punch 200 times a day for 10 years. He probably has a darn good high block + reverse punch. But is that going to help him in a fight? Probably not. So what's the deal? Is it his gong that is lacking? No.

[YouKnowWho]

Student: "Sifu, my 10 hit punch counter didn't work and I got beaten up! I don't get it!"

Scammy Sifu: "that's because your gong is not yet developed. Practice it 1,000 more times!".
To me, Gong is ability training. You use equipment (weight) to make yourself strong. Here is one of the Gong development that I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5obo6QAJek

You are talking about "technique" and not "Gong (ability)" here. No matter how fast and how accuracy your punch may be (technique), if you don't have punching power (Gong), your punch won't be able to knock your opponent down. If a teacher asks his students to punch on heavy bag 500 times daily, if the students don't do it, there is nothing that the teacher can do there. The teacher cannot punch on heavy bag for his students. The students have to do that all by themselves.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

If a potential new student comes to my gym and says they do not want to spar I will let the join and go through the workouts but also inform them that without sparring, they will never be good fighters and are simply doing it for exercise.

I would also encourage them to join other schools that are more suited for their needs, because I don't teach for a living and honestly don't understand why someone would want to do martial arts without sparring:confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

You can teach only what YOU Want to teach or you can teach people what THEY want to learn.
The choice is yours.

[ginosifu]

GoldernArms:

If you are running a commercial MA school, then you need to give the people what they want. Most average person wants some exercise, some Asian culture, some socializing and basic self defense. They are not interested in sparring, SC, San Shou, BJJ, ground fighting etc etc. If your commercial MA school leans towards more fighting, SC or BJJ you will struggle to survive.


In the begining of your class, you can divide your students into 2 circles. The person on the inside circle will have to spar the person on the outside circle. After 1 minutes, you can ask the inside circle to shift one person to the left. This way everybody will have chance to spar with everyday. Since everybody are busy sparring, nobody is watching, there won't be any ego involved. If you call this as part of the "warm up", after a period of time, your students won't feel that sparring is that hard at all.

YKW: if you are running a commercial school this may not always work. People that do not want to fight will not fight no matter how good or fun you make it. These folks will quit your school. These are the facts of life for the average person. Lets face the fact that fighting, SC, Grappling, Sparring etc etc. is not the most popular thing in MA.

Even the most popular BJJ schools do not force everyone to roll around all the time. It is mix of exercise, drills, self defense and a little rolling around.

If you run a TCMA out of your garage, then do what you want... kill them, make them fight everyday... whatever your goals are form them. You will only have 3-5 students though.... thats about it. In my SC class I have 20 or so kids, but usually 3-5 adults. Sad but it's the truth.

ginosifu

[ginosifu]

You can teach only what YOU Want to teach or you can teach people what THEY want to learn.
The choice is yours.

If you try and teach what YOU want to teach, you will have a limited amount of students. If you teach what the public wants then you have an abundant amount of students.

ginosifu

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you try and teach what YOU want to teach, you will have a limited amount of students. If you teach what the public wants then you have an abundant amount of students.

ginosifu

Quite correct.
Such is life.

[-N-]

+1 what ginosifu and sanjuro_ronin said.

[mooyingmantis]

"We will teach you whatever you want to know, but be aware that without sparring against a resisting opponent, it is not likely that you will develop the skills to defend yourself in an actual confrontation."

This for the win!

[RWilson]

In regards to kickboxing type sparring it is best to let the two people sparring decide the amount of force that is going to be involved. It would not be good to team the new guy up with the gung ho guy who can only go hard.


I would also add that women should not be sparring men unless the men are not afraid to strike them and the women know they are going to get hit. Training women and men together can be tricky.

One of the reasons bjj is so popular is because the sparring is relatively safe. You get to tap out. When kickboxing it is the little injuries that add up: jammed fingers/toes, getting hit in the nose, ball shots, etc.

The two guys in this clip are practically having a picnic and chitchatting. BJJ sparring is safe and fun. Still kind of gay but safe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9RIFtCqk4g

[IronFist]

GoldernArms:

If you are running a commercial MA school, then you need to give the people what they want. Most average person wants some exercise, some Asian culture, some socializing and basic self defense. They are not interested in sparring, SC, San Shou, BJJ, ground fighting etc etc. If your commercial MA school leans towards more fighting, SC or BJJ you will struggle to survive.


True.

I think most people want the Karate Kid experience.

But perhaps that is because they think doing forms and punches while the teacher counts off repetitions (bonus points if they're counting them off in an Asian language) will make them able to defend themselves.

[IronFist]

To me, Gong is ability training. You use equipment (weight) to make yourself strong. Here is one of the Gong development that I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5obo6QAJek

You are talking about "technique" and not "Gong (ability)" here. No matter how fast and how accuracy your punch may be (technique), if you don't have punching power (Gong), your punch won't be able to knock your opponent down. If a teacher asks his students to punch on heavy bag 500 times daily, if the students don't do it, there is nothing that the teacher can do there. The teacher cannot punch on heavy bag for his students. The students have to do that all by themselves.

Dude, I'm one of the biggest proponents of strength on this forum. But even if you're super strong, if you are using that strength in techniques that don't work, you are probably going to lose.

A triathelete bodybuilder powerlifter marathoner superhuman mutant doing high block, reverse punch against a boxer will still probably not do very well in a fight.

[YouKnowWho]

high block, reverse punch

How to use the "high block, reverse punch" is commonly mis-understood by many MA guys. You should use it as if you "raise the waist high curtain and walk in". The high block is only to "raise the curtain". The important part is to "walk in".

[Yum Cha]

+1 what ginosifu and sanjuro_ronin said.

+2

A lot more to this than people seem to appreciate.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Shaolin shed some important light on the business aspect that appears to have been looked over.

I do not see any of you making reference to flyers or well structured brochures that will inform the prospective student of what to expect when he/she joins. Probably the greatest thing a prospective fears is that of the unknown. Give the person something that he/she can read and can formulate questions about. These things may cost some dollars to do but they serve as a tuning fork: the person can get with it or move on.

Since fighting seems to be such an issue, you can have fighting practice on separate nights or you can structure your class where the latter part of the class is devoted to fighting while those who are not interested can bow out and leave.

These suggestions can be easily implemented without you getting bent out of shape over student enrollment.

The advantage is that you are creating an environment where you can easily cut the wheat from the chaff and give your fighters the quality training they need and maybe create future instructors at the same time (from those who partake in your full curriculum).


mickey

[David Jamieson]

The tough thing about teaching martial arts.

IMO, the tough thing about teaching TCMA is the Gong development. If your student doesn't want to put time into it, there is nothing that you can do about it. When a student's technique doesn't work, he will complain that the technique is no good instead of admitting that his Gong has not yet been fully developed.

^ This.

This is so true it hurts hard.

People get bored and won't do the necessary repetitions to set the glue so to speak.

I get frustrated with this as well from time to time. But occasionally you will find someone who is willing to do the work and it's all good.

[Brule]

What's the saying? If you only do forms and no conditioning, then you have no kung fu? Conditioning is paramount to be able to inflict damage on the opponent, but also your entry startegies are what will get you there to use your weapon. Forms will not provide you with this.

[sanjuro_ronin]

^ This.

This is so true it hurts hard.

People get bored and won't do the necessary repetitions to set the glue so to speak.

I get frustrated with this as well from time to time. But occasionally you will find someone who is willing to do the work and it's all good.

For sure.
What makes Kung fu IS the Gungs.

[YouKnowWho]

For sure.
What makes Kung fu IS the Gungs.

My teacher told me onetime he saw what his teacher did was so impressive.

His teacher

- Stood on top of a stool.
- Kicked right leg out.
- Bend down his left standing leg to make his right kicking leg to be parallel to the ground.
- Raise his left standing leg up (many people can do this so far).
- Kick his right leg back with right foot point vertically into the sky, head touches his left standing leg, and
- just freeze in that posture (this is the harderst part. It require flexibility, balance, endurance, and leg strength).

It's similiar to this picture:

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/7585/changleglifting.jpg

[IronFist]

How to use the "high block, reverse punch" is commonly mis-understood by many MA guys. You should use it as if you "raise the waist high curtain and walk in". The high block is only to "raise the curtain". The important part is to "walk in".

Kind of irrelevant to the discussion, I think.

The point is that dedicated practice, perfect technique, and adequate strength of useless techniques is not going to be very helpful. A reply saying "oh well most people don't understand how to use [insert technique]" doesn't really disprove it.

If high block + reverse punch is actually a super awesome technique then replace it with any of the other worthless techniques taught at so many TCMA schools.

[YouKnowWho]

If high block + reverse punch is actually a super awesome technique then replace it with any of the other worthless techniques taught at so many TCMA schools.

Maybe we should list all the "worthless TCMA techniques" here one by one. This way we can examine whether those techniques are truly worthless, or may be people just don't know how to apply it.

What are those "worthless techniques"?

[Northwind]

Must admit I didn't read all the replies, however I have to agree with the first response I felt with: YKW's 1st response. Gong is a very broad term, but includes all. It's one of the key differentiating factors that makes TCMA be TCMA - the actual practitioner. Forms are crap, applications are crap yadda ad-infinitum. We can have a gazillion of fight nights and make a hell of a brawler (with ground game et al). But if he's(/she's) not working a selected gong (selected either by teacher or student), then they are not going to get very far - other than simply being a good brawler in general. The gongs could be an iron this or that, balance, lightness, claw or grip strength, "peace" punch power, throws, getting up & out off of the ground, Prince Jin lifts the Urn, etc. etc. or could be something more generic like muscular strength within the forearm, stronger root, better ability at kicks turning into footwork entries for throws, lower back strength, more flexibility and intelligence within the Kua or just about anything.

The tough thing is that continued enduring progressive training in gongs take time and consistency of the practitioner OUTSIDE OF CLASS - as opposed to the concept of just "roll and keep rolling and you will be king of the hill" - which is good, but not the same goal...The techniques to actually practice gongs are usually extremely "simple" but not "easy" as it takes an inner strength of commitment etc., which we can all fail at...So...teaching it is easy...Nurturing it til its fruition? Now that's difficult.

[IronFist]

Maybe we should list all the "worthless TCMA techniques" here one by one. This way we can examine whether those techniques are truly worthless, or may be people just don't know how to apply it.

What are those "worthless techniques"?

Your troll-fu is excellent.

Quantifying "worthless techniques" is also irrelevant to the discussion.

We can assume there is a set of techniques that don't work as evidenced by the fact that BJJ tended to win in the early UFCs when it was style-based.

Therefore, let us assume that:

Techniques(BJJ) = useful
Call this variable U.

and

Techniques(non-BJJ) = worthless
Call this variable W

It is safe to assume that amongst all the UFC competitors, some had spent a long time (L) practicing their techniques and had very good "gong," and others were noobs who hadn't been training very long (S) and just wanted to go prove how tough they were.

So there are 4 sets of combatants:

UL
US
WL
WS

It is safe to assume random pairings of competitors, so you have potentially:

UL vs UL
UL vs US
UL vs WL
UL vs WS

US vs US
US vs WL
US vs WS

WL vs WL
WL vs WS

WS vs WS

Now considering that BJJ always won, we can assume that in the case of Ux vs Wx, the other variables don't matter, since some of those victories were in fact US vs WL.

And just for fun, lets add the anecdotal evidence that nearly anyone who has gone from TCMA --> BJJ/MMA has experienced, and that is having years of experience in TCMA and being easily defeated by a noob in BJJ. And then also being a noob in BJJ and easily defeating people with years of experience in TCMA.

Conclusion:

Subsets of "useful" and "worthless" techniques exist, and time spent training developing "gong" in worthless techniques is not going to benefit one in combat, even if they are "good" at the techniques.





Disclaimer: unless said techniques are "too deadly for the ring" and/or qi blasts. Then of course you would win!

[Northwind]

In short...Whatatard.

[Northwind]

IF...Are you REALLY going down the whole "all tcma is useless" avenue again? Using this thread to do it? OMG you need a wakeupcall...

[IronFist]

IF...Are you REALLY going down the whole "all tcma is useless" avenue again? Using this thread to do it? OMG you need a wakeupcall...

No, all I said was even if you practice a worthless technique to mastery level (good "gong" or whatever you want to call it), you still have a worthless technique. There are people who believe that all you have to do is train harder and your techniques will work. It's normal "guru" brainwashing. I'm saying it doesn't work that way.

I just used BJJ in the previous example for simplicity.

Not all TCMA is worthless. I even used a wing chun technique (pak da) in a confrontation once. Now, I wouldn't be likely to pak da a guy throwing a punch at me, but in the situation that happened his arm was already extended and a few inches from my chest and my hands were in the right position to pak da him, so I did.

[Northwind]

No, all I said was even if you practice a worthless technique to mastery level (good "gong" or whatever you want to call it), you still have a worthless technique.

Worth-less.

Who says what is something's worth? The ring? You?



Not all TCMA is worthless. I even used a wing chun technique (pak da) in a confrontation once. Now, I wouldn't be likely to pak da a guy throwing a punch at me, but in the situation that happened his arm was already extended and a few inches from my chest and my hands were in the right position to pak da him, so I did.

Well that's great. Then my point is don't use phrasing that sounds like you cr@p on anything tcma - related...

[rett]

Now, I wouldn't be likely to pak da a guy throwing a punch at me, but in the situation that happened his arm was already extended and a few inches from my chest and my hands were in the right position to pak da him, so I did.

This may help explain why techniqes are often practised or demonstrated on a "punch" that just hangs in the air. (which is commonly ridiculed by TCMA bashers)

The arm can get there all kinds of ways, from pushing, blocking or anything else that might happen in a fight. Calling it unrealistic because people "don't punch that way" just misses the point. That form of demonstration is just a convenient way to demonstrate things.

[YouKnowWho]

Your troll-fu is excellent.
From your following statements, your troll-fu is not bad yourself.

... a noob in BJJ and easily defeating people with years of experience in TCMA ...
... Techniques(BJJ) = useful ...
... Techniques(non-BJJ) = worthless ...
... Now considering that BJJ always won ...

[SPJ]

the tough thing about teaching

it is from the students.

or most of the learning must come from the students themself.

There was a graduate student from Singapore at UC Irvine.

She invited me for a tea.

She offered to show me her five ancestor fist set.

I had to showed her some Baji and Tongbei.

She showed me the whole set.

I only show her a few moves.

Quality is always more important then quantities.

This is really a hard fact or pill to swallow for many young people.

:)

[IronFist]

From your following statements, your troll-fu is not bad yourself.

... a noob in BJJ and easily defeating people with years of experience in TCMA ...
... Techniques(BJJ) = useful ...
... Techniques(non-BJJ) = worthless ...
... Now considering that BJJ always won ...

You missed the entire point of my post.

Although probably intentionally, since you have a high level of gong in troll fu.

[IronFist]

This may help explain why techniqes are often practised or demonstrated on a "punch" that just hangs in the air. (which is commonly ridiculed by TCMA bashers)

The arm can get there all kinds of ways, from pushing, blocking or anything else that might happen in a fight. Calling it unrealistic because people "don't punch that way" just misses the point. That form of demonstration is just a convenient way to demonstrate things.

Yeah, well I mean in real fighting no one leaves their punches extended. And I don't believe the argument of "oh well that 10 hit counter we learn on an opponent who leaves his arm extended after a punch is in case your opponent happens to have his arm extended" mostly because:

a) they never say that in class. It's always "here's how you deal with a punch."

b) they don't actually train against punches that retract from resisting opponents who are trying to hit you (eg. a realistic opponent)

In my situation it wasn't even a punch. The guy was trying to threaten me and had his arm extended almost touching my chest.

Let me stress again that I would most likely not pak da someone actually trying to punch me, especially a boxer. I'd do it in a Wing Chun sparring match but not in an actual fight. It works very well against WC style punches but is a good way to get punched in the head against a boxer. It doesn't work very well against head-level punches and requires a bit of "reaching" for the punch which is always a bad idea.

But if the arm is already extended at chest height, pak da is probably the way to go.

In my opinion, Wing Chun techniques tend to work well for dealing with "surprises" from a standing position. I have instinctively pak da'ed a few times over the years when someone (usually a friend) randomly "surprised" me with a punch. lol. But in an actual fight, I don't think I would use it, and that comes from experience in trying to use WC techniques against MMA/boxer guys and comparing it against using MMA (specifically Crazy Monkey) techniques against all other styles.

To go back to the previous point, if you had two people fighting, one guy had 3 months of experience in crazy monkey style standup and the other guy had 5 years in the TCMA of your choice, I would put my money on the CM guy. The techniques are objectively better when it comes to combat.

Don't get me wrong; I'm a terrible fighter. I suck with crazy monkey, and I suck even worse with TCMA. But my point is I was a better fighter after 3 months of CM than I was in my entire life previous to that point with Isshinryu and Wing Chun.

edit - This is not an anti-TCMA post. I want to reiterate that I think WC techniques are fantastic for if you're just standing there doing nothing and you need to react in attack mode. You can flow from "just standing there" into whatever WC technique you need faster than you can flow from "just standing there" into some boxing technique, plus the simultaneous block/punch nature of many WC techniques lends itself well to this situation since if you are "just standing there" you're probably going to need to block something. But this is in isolation, before the fight has begun. If it actually turns into a fight, I'm going to use boxing, not Wing Chun.

Although I have met a few people who can fight competently with WC.

As always, use whatever works for you. But the important point is to find out what works for you and not blindly take the word of your guru sifu who is too deadly to spar with you.

[David Jamieson]

Gongs aren't generally around technique.
Gongs are conditioning and development for the most part.

The equivalent in non traditional training would be resistance, body work, plyo, yoga, shock conditioning, etc etc.

Gongs are the nails in the framework.

[bawang]

the tough thing about teaching is trying to teach morality as a depraved souless american.

[IronFist]

the tough thing about teaching is trying to teach morality as a depraved souless american.

I would think the tough thing about teaching is not killing new students with qi blasts before they have developed their iron vest golden bell gong to be able to resist a level 1 fireball.

Being "too deadly to spar" has some disadvantages.

No wonder they don't allow internal arts in UFC.

[-N-]

I would think the tough thing about teaching is not killing new students with qi blasts before they have developed their iron vest golden bell gong to be able to resist a level 1 fireball.

Standing breathing execises were invented by teachers that got too frustrated by students that couldn't move and breath at the same time without tripping over their own feet.

"Ok, just stand there and breath. You can do that without falling down, can't you???"

[YouKnowWho]

I would think the tough thing about teaching is not killing new students with qi blasts before they have developed their iron vest golden bell gong to be able to resist a level 1 fireball.

Being "too deadly to spar" has some disadvantages.

No wonder they don't allow internal arts in UFC.

No matter how many times that I have read your post, it still looks like that you are trying to put down TCMA here. :(

[rett]

In my opinion, Wing Chun techniques tend to work well for dealing with "surprises" from a standing position.

And that's probably the single most important thing for self-defence, recovering very quickly from a surprise attack and turning the tables.

Boxing matches are the kind of fights you don't have to be in.

All I'm saying is that useful/useless depends on the purpose.


a) they never say that in class. It's always "here's how you deal with a punch."

Well maybe you took a different class than I did. When they said that, did you ask them if the arm could get there other ways?

[ginosifu]

the tough thing about teaching is trying to teach morality as a depraved souless american.

Did you know that there just as many American people that are truly trying to promote CMA and teach quality old school kung fu as Chinese people here? Yes there some bad morally depraved Americans, but there are just as many good souls out there.


I would think the tough thing about teaching is not killing new students with qi blasts before they have developed their iron vest golden bell gong to be able to resist a level 1 fireball.

Being "too deadly to spar" has some disadvantages.

No wonder they don't allow internal arts in UFC.

Come on IronFist, can everyone stop with the bashing of CMA. This stuff has been rehashed over and over again. Can't you haters ever realize that everyone is not a fake or a snake oil saleman type.

Lets take a balanced look at all of this, a Yin and Yang approach if you will. There will always be those individuals that get into that mystical stuff. There are an equal amount of TCMA practitioners out there don't care about that mystical stuff.

Every country in the world loves the fantastic and the supernatural. Years ago, these fantastical feats were done at carnivals / street shows etc etc. Everyone came to see that guy who could bend a bar of steel on his throat or break florescent light bulbs on their chests (see IronFist's clip).

Many join the Martial Arts to pursue these feats of majik. They soon find out that these are not supernatural feats, but just skills to learn. Iron Skills, Qi Gong and other feats are just skills you can learn at a TCMA school. I admit some of these are not quite as supernatural as they seam, like the bending a Spear on your throat. It is not so hard to teach this to anyone relativle quickly and it has nothing to do with Qi.

There a lot of TCMA practitioners that learn all the fighting skills and decide to go into the esoterical arts. There is nothing wrong with that, if you want to stand there like a tree holding a ball in front of your chest.... more power to you. However, you bashers just can't get enough of making fun of peeps.

One of the problems I see is that you bashers never get out of your computer chairs and go touch hands with any of these folks. Look at myself. I had a pretty good fighting career, however I have learned over 100 Forms from Northern Shaolin, Southern Hung Gar, Monkey, Tai Chi, Jing Wu, Eagle Claw, Tien Shan Pai forms just name a few. I also do Qi Gong and yes I stand and hold a ball.

Now I do not profess to be able to blast people with my Qi, but I practice none the less. Why is it that none of you ever come to my school and touch hands or challenge me. If you would go and see first hand what we do, you may change your opinion about us.

ginosifu

[IronFist]

And that's probably the single most important thing for self-defence, recovering very quickly from a surprise attack and turning the tables.

Boxing matches are the kind of fights you don't have to be in.

All I'm saying is that useful/useless depends on the purpose.

So it's good for surprise attacks. What happens when it evolves into a fight? Hopefully you know how to fight fight, too.


Well maybe you took a different class than I did. When they said that, did you ask them if the arm could get there other ways?

I was too young at the time to know that what we were being taught wasn't realistic.

I did, however, get "corrected" once during a free trial class of Krav Maga for NOT reaching out to block incoming punches (:rolleyes: ). Needless to say, I never went back. Also, the teacher was overweight, didn't spar with students, and told me "ground fighting is pointless. We prefer to rip the guy's arm off and beat him with it." It was a "count off the reps" class and give everyone a false sense of confidence at all these deadly moves you're learning type of place. I was totally let down because at the time I had just had to move for work and thus had to stop going to the MMA place I was training at, and where I moved to there was nothing but McDojos, and then I found this place, and I know KM has reputation for being "no nonsense" and "deadly" and whatever, so I called, talked to the instructor, asked specific instructions and was told how realistically they train, so I was really excited. And then I got there and it was just another McDojo with most of the McDojo cliches.

I asked him "why do you reach out to block the punch?" He goes "because that's how we do it here" ( http://smiliesftw.com/x/ugh2.gif (http://smiliesftw.com) )

Anytime I asked a question in my previous MMA class, I was given a specific, quantified answer (eg. we do it x way because of y and that's why it's better than doing it z way).

I also got corrected in the KM class for not holding my fists far away enough from my body in the "fighting stance" http://smiliesftw.com/x/ugh.gif

"Isn't it going to be easy for my opponent to grab my arm if I keep it extended that much?" (hint: the answer is "yes")

I don't remember what his reply was, but I'm sure it was some nonsense. Probably something like "it takes longer to throw a punch if your hand is chambered by your head rather than 18" in front of your chest" or some other broscience like that.


There is also the issue of not wanting to be a d!ick and going to someone else's school and questioning everything they do. That's like bad MA manners. You don't go to a X style school and be like "well in Y style we do it this way and that's better so why do you guys do it this other way?" So I kinda did feel weird asking him. I didn't want to come off as a dbag. But at the same time, I knew after 30 minutes of this class that I wouldn't be coming back anyway so I didn't really care anymore.

Cliffs Notes:
- Ask a McDojo teacher why they do McDojo techniques
- Instructor makes it apparent he has no experience dealing with a resisting opponent (training or fighting)
- You cannot change Koolaid drinkers' beliefs
- Don't come back to school

I'm not saying all Krav Maga sucks. I'm saying the school I checked out sucked (as far as learning to become a competent fighter. I'm sure it was a good workout from a fitness perspective).

[IronFist]

There a lot of TCMA practitioners that learn all the fighting skills and decide to go into the esoterical arts. There is nothing wrong with that, if you want to stand there like a tree holding a ball in front of your chest.... more power to you. However, you bashers just can't get enough of making fun of peeps.

Standing qigong may have health benefits.

My only issue is with people who claims it's giving them a protective shield of qi or whatever.

Qi may be a legit health thing (even though it hasn't been quantified by Western science yet). But what it is NOT is a magic protective shield of energy that protects you from strikes.

The nonsense involved in all these iron body demos (the ones that blame it on qi despite the fact that it's a conditioned guy flexing all his muscles and being struck at physically advantageous points of leverage) is equivalent to a guy with strep throat taking antibiotics and doing qigong and then saying qigong cured his strep throat.


One of the problems I see is that you bashers never get out of your computer chairs and go touch hands with any of these folks. Look at myself. I had a pretty good fighting career, however I have learned over 100 Forms from Northern Shaolin, Southern Hung Gar, Monkey, Tai Chi, Jing Wu, Eagle Claw, Tien Shan Pai forms just name a few. I also do Qi Gong and yes I stand and hold a ball.

Ok http://smiliesftw.com/x/ugh2.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

I've trained with plenty of local guys. I don't really care about spending the money to travel to visit people on an internet forum.

The only TCMA guys I've met who can fight (and I have met a few) are the ones who incorporate San Shou/MMA/groundfighting into their mix.


Now I do not profess to be able to blast people with my Qi, but I practice none the less. Why is it that none of you ever come to my school and touch hands or challenge me. If you would go and see first hand what we do, you may change your opinion about us.

Isn't the onus of proof on the qigong guys? Why don't they compete in open style tournaments to prove their stuff works? And think of the repercussions of a victory: Glory and honor to the school/style. A change in MA paradigm. Tons of interested students. School expansion. They'd become an ambassador for the art the same way the Gracies did when they stepped up and proved that their style worked.

That's how you do it. Fighting a random person on the internet wouldn't do anything anyway. You beat them. So what? Anyone can win on any given day. I even got a black eye from a 15 year old once. Then again, I never claimed to be a good fighter. In fact, I openly admit I suck in almost every thread I post in. Especially now, since I a) haven't trained in years and b) have been in physical therapy for 5 of the last 7 months :(

But seriously, I would be first in line to sign up at the school of whatever qigong art won UFC.

[Drake]

There's also the challenge of teaching things that while you don't directly use them in a fight, they do make you a better fighter. How do you get that message across? Of course the stance is ridiculosuly lower than how it'd be in a fight, and of course you aren't going to even be in that position for more than a split second... so why hold it there for so long?

[IronFist]

There's also the challenge of teaching things that while you don't directly use them in a fight, they do make you a better fighter. How do you get that message across? Of course the stance is ridiculosuly lower than how it'd be in a fight, and of course you aren't going to even be in that position for more than a split second... so why hold it there for so long?

Low stance training and holding stances and that stuff really has no purpose in training.

Let's look at why:

- holding a low horse stance builds muscular endurance in that particular position; a position which is not used in fighting

- holding a low horse stance builds a slight amount of strength for someone who is a noob as their muscles adapt to the increased load. However, the strength gains will quickly plateau, even if you increase the time for which you hold the stance. In other words, if you can hold a horse stance for 5 minutes and then you increase it to 20 minutes, your muscles did not adapt to be able to generate more tension and you did not increase your strength or maximal power generation. As stated in the first point, all you did was increase your endurance for a static contraction at a specific angle; an angle which does not occur in fighting. Indeed, the only way this would be beneficial would be if the goal of fighting was to hold a low horse stance for a long period of time

A better way to train is to look at factors that are necessary for fighting: strength and cardiovascular endurance (specifically in short bursts that are near the anaerobic threshold).

So one should do leg exercises that develop strength throughout a range of motion so you can generate more power for stronger kicks, or for better leverage in ground fighting, etc. Barbell squats are king for this. Increasing the weight lifted over time results in increases in strength. This is how the body and nervous system works. Increasing your time at a specific weight (such as holding horse stance for long periods of time) does NOT increase maximal strength. Increasing the weight DOES increase strength. This is basic physiology although I'm sure it will draw "but my sifu/ninja master/secret Asian dude I learned from says..." Please put down the Kool-Aid for a moment and pick up a basic physiology textbook.

One should also train for the type of cardio endurance needed in fighting; short round burst type stuff at a high intensity. Distance running is not a good choice. In fact, people have found that, for example, if they can run 5 miles but they are still getting tired in their sparring/fighting, that if they increase it so they can run 10 miles, they still get tired during training. Distance running is low output cardio and is not representative of fighting. Better choices for fighting are things like kettlebells, tabata interval sprints, or training rounds at high intensity.

Another way to look at all of this is to remember SAID (specific adaptations to imposed demands). In other words, you get better at doing things you do. So if you do horse stance all day, you will get better at doing horse stance. But being able to hold a low horse stance for hours does not translate into any advantage in fighting because all it does is cause your body to get better at sustained muscular contraction at a specific angle without benefiting cardio endurance or muscle output (raw strength potential).

I guess holding a low horse stance can build mental fortitude or show dedication or something, but as far as improving one's fighting ability, it's useless.

Posts like these usually draw tons of flames because it's a bunch of science thrown in the face of traditional guru instruction.

This is probably the most important post you will read on this forum this year.

How to condition yourself to become a better fighter:
- develop raw strength (squat, deadlift, bench press, overhead press, weighted pullups, following a program that increases the weight used over time)
- develop endurance in a way that is similar to what the body experiences during fighting (kettlebells, tabata intervals, fighting rounds, jump rope)

Don't waste your time with any of the following:
- low stance training for time
- distance running

Finally, if low stance training was of any benefit to anything, then you would see professional athletes do it. People who make their living and support their families through their athletic performance have access to the best training techniques out of necessity (they also have access to the best drugs, but that's another topic). Want to be a fighter? Look at how professional fighters train. Want to be a weight lifter? Look at how professional weight lifters train (not that I'm advocating copying their lifestyle, but that's also another topic). Want to be an awesome gymnast? Look at how Olympic gymnasts train (hint: they lift weights). None of these people do stance training for long times because there's no benefit from it for anything other than being able to hold a low stance for a longer period of time*.

*the one exception being beginners who will get a little strength gain from it because their muscles are going from sedentary lifestyle to having this new movement imposed upon them. But as stated earlier, the strength gains are minimal and plateau quickly. It's analogous to how a noob who can only do 1 pushup trains to be able to do 10 pushups and his max bench press will increase a bit due to initial central nervous system adaptation. If he increases to 20 or 30 pushups it may go up a bit more. But if he goes up to 100 pushups it's not going to increase proportionally anymore because he's no longer developing strength because the load (resistance) is not increasing and therefore the CNS has no reason to adapt by increasing strength. This is the reason why powerlifters don't train by doing pushups (or anything else) for high reps. Powerlifters want to be able to lift as much weight as possible so their training represents that.

Fighters need high muscular output (so they have enough strength to make their techniques work) and high output cardio endurance (so they don't get tired halfway through the fight), and their training should represent that. Anything else is counterproductive at worst and a waste of time at best.

This post should be stickied in its own thread.

[YouKnowWho]

Low stance training and holding stances and that stuff really has no purpose in training.
You can't look at TCMA just from a "striker" point of view. To be able to use a proper low horse stance is the basic requirement to apply:

- hip throw,
- shoulder throw,
- embracing throw,
- firemen's carry,
- ...

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ogoshi.htm

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/moroteseoinage.htm

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/uranage.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILb0c69v3rM

[IronFist]

You can't look at TCMA just from a "striker" point of view. To be able to use a proper low horse stance is the basic requirement to apply:

- hip throw,
- shoulder throw,
- firemen's carry,
- embracing throw,
- ...

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ogoshi.htm

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/moroteseoinage.htm

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/uranage.htm

Nonsense. The benefit gained from low stance training (the ability to hold a stance for longer period of times at that specific angle) doesn't really come into play in a throw that lasts half a second.

In other words, a guy who can squat 300 pounds is going to be better equipped to do any of those things you mentioned than someone who can hold a low horse stance for an hour. As an added benefit, the weight of the opponent won't seem like much to someone who's used to squatting/deadlifting more than his opponent weighs. Remember, his muscles are used to dealing with extra weight and they are used to contracting efficiently and moving under added weight.

A horse stance guy is used to supporting his own body weight for long periods of time in a static position; that's basically the opposite of throwing someone.

[YouKnowWho]

Nonsense. The benefit gained from low stance training (the ability to hold a stance for longer period of times at that specific angle) doesn't really come into play in a throw that lasts half a second.

In wrestling, your legs will get tired first. Whoever has strong legs will have chance to win. You wil not just throw once. You have to keep trying over and over until you succeed. If you have faith in "strength", you should also have faith in "endurance".


Don't waste your time with any of the following:
- distance running.
To be able to out run fat cops is always a good thing.

[Drake]

Like I said... it's difficult to impart this stuff and its importance. And distance running is important. But it's important to mix that and wind sprints, ****lek runs, last man up drills, and relays.

It feels like the pendulum has swung wildly to the other side, and now we're still lopsided, but on the other side..

[Fa Xing]

Like I said... it's difficult to impart this stuff and its importance. And distance running is important. But it's important to mix that and wind sprints, ****lek runs, last man up drills, and relays.

It feels like the pendulum has swung wildly to the other side, and now we're still lopsided, but on the other side..

Which is why I lift heavy, run sprints, run long distances, and train in martial arts. People in the martial arts have this strange idea, that contemporary strength and conditioning will make you slow and stiff, a base less myth.

BTW, I still practice qigong, and meditation as well; it's still important but not everything. Plus modern strength coaches like Jason Ferruggia recommend meditation to everyone.

[Drake]

Which is why I lift heavy, run sprints, run long distances, and train in martial arts. People in the martial arts have this strange idea, that contemporary strength and conditioning will make you slow and stiff, a base less myth.

BTW, I still practice qigong, and meditation as well; it's still important but not everything. Plus modern strength coaches like Jason Ferruggia recommend meditation to everyone.

Exactly. If you only do one form of whatever, your training will be lopsided. If you just do forms, you'll be lopsided... if you just do sprints, lopsided...

It's all about balancing your training for an overall effect.

I lift a lot of weights too, and it has dramatically affected my speed and strike penetration. TCMA has that, but nobody can run a school in the US if they spend three quarters of their time making people do what they had to do back then, just to be allowed to train. Strength and endurance is very important, and I think that the point was is that you had to be strong and capable of long bouts of rough training before you even thought about starting. Why start someone training if they only last 5 minutes before they're exhausted and out of strength?

[wenshu]

Low stance training and holding stances and that stuff really has no purpose in training.

Let's look at why:

- holding a low horse stance builds muscular endurance in that particular position; a position which is not used in fighting

- holding a low horse stance builds a slight amount of strength for someone who is a noob as their muscles adapt to the increased load. However, the strength gains will quickly plateau, even if you increase the time for which you hold the stance. In other words, if you can hold a horse stance for 5 minutes and then you increase it to 20 minutes, your muscles did not adapt to be able to generate more tension and you did not increase your strength or maximal power generation. As stated in the first point, all you did was increase your endurance for a static contraction at a specific angle; an angle which does not occur in fighting. Indeed, the only way this would be beneficial would be if the goal of fighting was to hold a low horse stance for a long period of time

A better way to train is to look at factors that are necessary for fighting: strength and cardiovascular endurance (specifically in short bursts that are near the anaerobic threshold).

So one should do leg exercises that develop strength throughout a range of motion so you can generate more power for stronger kicks, or for better leverage in ground fighting, etc. Barbell squats are king for this. Increasing the weight lifted over time results in increases in strength. This is how the body and nervous system works. Increasing your time at a specific weight (such as holding horse stance for long periods of time) does NOT increase maximal strength. Increasing the weight DOES increase strength. This is basic physiology although I'm sure it will draw "but my sifu/ninja master/secret Asian dude I learned from says..." Please put down the Kool-Aid for a moment and pick up a basic physiology textbook.

One should also train for the type of cardio endurance needed in fighting; short round burst type stuff at a high intensity. Distance running is not a good choice. In fact, people have found that, for example, if they can run 5 miles but they are still getting tired in their sparring/fighting, that if they increase it so they can run 10 miles, they still get tired during training. Distance running is low output cardio and is not representative of fighting. Better choices for fighting are things like kettlebells, tabata interval sprints, or training rounds at high intensity.

Another way to look at all of this is to remember SAID (specific adaptations to imposed demands). In other words, you get better at doing things you do. So if you do horse stance all day, you will get better at doing horse stance. But being able to hold a low horse stance for hours does not translate into any advantage in fighting because all it does is cause your body to get better at sustained muscular contraction at a specific angle without benefiting cardio endurance or muscle output (raw strength potential).

I guess holding a low horse stance can build mental fortitude or show dedication or something, but as far as improving one's fighting ability, it's useless.

Posts like these usually draw tons of flames because it's a bunch of science thrown in the face of traditional guru instruction.

This is probably the most important post you will read on this forum this year.

How to condition yourself to become a better fighter:
- develop raw strength (squat, deadlift, bench press, overhead press, weighted pullups, following a program that increases the weight used over time)
- develop endurance in a way that is similar to what the body experiences during fighting (kettlebells, tabata intervals, fighting rounds, jump rope)

Don't waste your time with any of the following:
- low stance training for time
- distance running

Finally, if low stance training was of any benefit to anything, then you would see professional athletes do it. People who make their living and support their families through their athletic performance have access to the best training techniques out of necessity (they also have access to the best drugs, but that's another topic). Want to be a fighter? Look at how professional fighters train. Want to be a weight lifter? Look at how professional weight lifters train (not that I'm advocating copying their lifestyle, but that's also another topic). Want to be an awesome gymnast? Look at how Olympic gymnasts train (hint: they lift weights). None of these people do stance training for long times because there's no benefit from it for anything other than being able to hold a low stance for a longer period of time*.

*the one exception being beginners who will get a little strength gain from it because their muscles are going from sedentary lifestyle to having this new movement imposed upon them. But as stated earlier, the strength gains are minimal and plateau quickly. It's analogous to how a noob who can only do 1 pushup trains to be able to do 10 pushups and his max bench press will increase a bit due to initial central nervous system adaptation. If he increases to 20 or 30 pushups it may go up a bit more. But if he goes up to 100 pushups it's not going to increase proportionally anymore because he's no longer developing strength because the load (resistance) is not increasing and therefore the CNS has no reason to adapt by increasing strength. This is the reason why powerlifters don't train by doing pushups (or anything else) for high reps. Powerlifters want to be able to lift as much weight as possible so their training represents that.

Fighters need high muscular output (so they have enough strength to make their techniques work) and high output cardio endurance (so they don't get tired halfway through the fight), and their training should represent that. Anything else is counterproductive at worst and a waste of time at best.

This post should be stickied in its own thread.


Gymnasts lift weights and distance running should be avoided? You're ****ing kidding me right?

Your post should be stickied, but not for the reason you're thinking.

If only what is useful has value, then what value is it to spend all this time and effort trying to save kung fu from its obstinate self?

[IronFist]

Gymnasts lift weights and distance running should be avoided? You're ****ing kidding me right?

All upper echelon gymnasts lift weights as part of their strength training. I'm not sure why most people don't want to believe this. Just look at their bodies: you don't get development like that without progressive resistance training.

http://i43.tinypic.com/2yvwd9w.jpg

To suggest otherwise would be to rewrite the laws of physiology.

I'm not saying they ONLY do strength training. Obviously gymnastics has a lot of sport-specific stuff that you can only develop through gymnastics training.

Distance running really doesn't do much to improve any aspect of fighting. The energy systems being taxed aren't the same ones that come into play in a fight, whether ring fighting or real fighting.

If you want to improve your endurance for fighting, kettlebells, tabata type interval training, jump rope, and actually doing rounds of sparring is the way to go.

[IronFist]

Exactly. If you only do one form of whatever, your training will be lopsided. If you just do forms, you'll be lopsided... if you just do sprints, lopsided...

It's all about balancing your training for an overall effect.

I lift a lot of weights too, and it has dramatically affected my speed and strike penetration. TCMA has that, but nobody can run a school in the US if they spend three quarters of their time making people do what they had to do back then, just to be allowed to train. Strength and endurance is very important, and I think that the point was is that you had to be strong and capable of long bouts of rough training before you even thought about starting. Why start someone training if they only last 5 minutes before they're exhausted and out of strength?

You bring up a good point. A lot of people who take martial arts classes want the "karate kid experience." They want to do old school traditional exercises because they think it's cool. They want their instructor to teach them secret ancient exercises that no one else knows about. Holding a horse stance in class for 10 minutes makes them feel awesome. It's not helping their fighting ability at all, but it's the experience of doing so that they enjoy.

[wenshu]

All upper echelon gymnasts lift weights as part of their strength training. I'm not sure why most people don't want to believe this. Just look at their bodies: you don't get development like that without progressive resistance training.

http://i43.tinypic.com/2yvwd9w.jpg

To suggest otherwise would be to rewrite the laws of physiology.


They look muscular therefore they must lift weights?

You have no idea what you are talking about. Unless by lifting weight you mean bodyweight.

[wenshu]

What is it with these guys who practiced southern arts for a few years, got smacked around in a fight, switched to MMA, jumped on the high intensity bandwagon and have apparently made it their life's mission to tell everyone who still likes kung fu how wrong it is?

Honestly, (wc forum excluded of course) I can count on one hand the number of regulars on this board who don't already promote a balanced approach to strength and conditioning and training in general, so who exactly are these guys trying to convince?

Horse stance is wrong, I must tell teh worlds! Durrr

[Fa Xing]

Distance running really doesn't do much to improve any aspect of fighting. The energy systems being taxed aren't the same ones that come into play in a fight, whether ring fighting or real fighting.

If you want to improve your endurance for fighting, kettlebells, tabata type interval training, jump rope, and actually doing rounds of sparring is the way to go.

Definitely agree with this. However, for me, I have found it necessary to run 3 miles once or twice a week almost as way for my body to get some relaxing exercise, and still sweat.

Otherwise, it's sprinting and martial arts training for the other energy systems.

BTW, burpees tabatas are a *****!

[IronFist]

They look muscular therefore they must lift weights?

You have no idea what you are talking about. Unless by lifting weight you mean bodyweight.

Muscle hypertrophy is a response to increasing loads placed upon it (assuming the volume, intensity and diet are also correct, but those are not up for debate here). There is a finite limit to what can be achieved with bodyweight in regards to maximal strength and size. You will never get a huge bodybuilder chest from doing pushups. You will never get large quads from doing bodyweight squats or even pistols (one legged squats). You'll never get arms and shoulders like that guy has from handstand pushups and pullups alone nor even from the rigors of gymnastics training (static holds, explosive stuff, etc.) alone.

When someone has the development of that guy you can reasonably assume that some hypertrophy specific training has taken place (unless the guy happens to be one of those myostatin gene mutation cases...).

Years ago, respected KFM member Ford Prefect (whose knowledge of strength training exceeds my own by 10x) performed an experiment where he stopped lifting weights and did only bodyweight/gymnastic exercises for a while. The results were as predicted by SAID: his ability to perform the gymnastics exercises increased significantly while his maximal strength (as tested with weights) decreased. There's a whole thread about it somewhere in the training forum.

[Yum Cha]

What is it with these guys who practiced southern arts for a few years, got smacked around in a fight, switched to MMA, jumped on the high intensity bandwagon and have apparently made it their life's mission to tell everyone who still likes kung fu how wrong it is?

Honestly, (wc forum excluded of course) I can count on one hand the number of regulars on this board who don't already promote a balanced approach to strength and conditioning and training in general, so who exactly are these guys trying to convince?

Horse stance is wrong, I must tell teh worlds! Durrr

Bing!

KFO in a nutshell. More Don Quixotes than men riding asses.

[IronFist]

Horse stance is wrong, I must tell teh worlds! Durrr

Paying it forward. I wasted years on secret kung fu training that I thought was making me an awesome fighter. Turns out I got rocked by an MMA noob with like 2 months of experience.

I believed it almost all of it. Weight lifting is bad. Size is bad and makes you inflexible. Secret training exercises that no one else knows about are awesome and put me in an elite club of superior fighters. Closed door nonsense. Trapping is useful in real fighting. I never believed in the no touch qi nonsense though. Well, that's not true. I believed that it was probably possible but you know, it takes decades of training and most people couldn't do it.

I actually thought that all the secret kung fu strength training I was doing was making me stronger. I went to the gym one day to test my strength and, lol, I was pretty weak. Slightly stronger than a totally untrained guy of my weight, but nowhere near the level I thought I would be (after all, the old kung fu masters knew all the secrets of strength development :rolleyes: ). I almost immediately dropped all the nonsense and began lifting weights and actually getting stronger.

When I decided to test my skills (as opposed to staying in the dark and believing I was a super ninja), I found out that I sucked and everything I had been told by the "masters" was wrong (although I did have pretty good shin and forearm conditioning). Fortunately by this time I had at least been lifting weights for a few years so I wasn't terribly weak, I was just a terrible fighter.

I'm pretty scientific by nature and while I really believed that grappling was a non-issue if you were a good kung fu guy, I wanted to see if it was actually true.

It wasn't. I got my sh!t rocked.

I also thought that in my history of martial arts (Isshinryu Karate and Wing Chun) I would at least be decent at standup fighting.

I wasn't. Actually, I did beat this one dude who was a total noob to MA, but everyone else destroyed me.

Fortunately, they were cool dudes and invited me to train with them.

I wish someone had been around 12 years ago to tell me this stuff so I stopped wasting my time on secret deadly kung fu moves and all this other stuff.

Look, I don't care what style someone does. The important thing is to test it and see if it works. Remove the veil of ignorance. Just because you do x style TCMA and can hang with all the other dudes doing the same style at your gym doesn't mean you can fight.

Train realistically against resisting opponents. Not point sparring. Not leaving-the-arm-extended-and-doing-10-hit counters. It doesn't mean you have to beat the crap out of each other, it just means train with a resisting opponent. Train against a boxer. Train against an MMA guy even if you hate MMA, with its popularity today there is a good chance that if you get in a fight, it's going to be against an MMA guy so hopefully you can defend yourself against it.

When I went to the gym and began reading physiology books, I realized that all the "strength" training I had been doing wasn't going to get me to my goals. I realized most TMA people (not TCMA, but TMA in general) have no idea about the science behind how the body works.

When I started sparring with people outside of my style, I realized that all the "fighting" training I was doing wasn't going to get me to my goals.

The first time I trained with a resisting opponent I freaked out a little bit. It was a massive wake up call. I think at this point some people run back to their comfort zone and pretend that fighting is easy and fun and spend the rest of their days training against people in their own gym who won't hit them even if their block misses, and other people immediately drop their old comfort zone and become terrified at the fact that they know nothing.

Even if someone wants to do TCMA and is true to their style, they should at least understand the science of training and why so many traditional training methods aren't going to make them better fighters.

[Drake]

Kung fu doesn't suck.

The guy who "trained" you sucked.

You should really try and understand the difference.

[TenTigers]

Did you know that there just as many American people that are truly trying to promote CMA and teach quality old school kung fu as Chinese people here? Yes there some bad morally depraved Americans, but there are just as many good souls out there.

Did we fail to mention all the Chinese who knew all too well, that by simply being Asian, they could teach utter crap, and the gwailos would buy into it, hook, line and sinker.
And many of them did. There is a huge,"Don't ask, don't tell," Good 'ol Boys Club in CMA, that have supported each other (you lie and I'll swear to it) since the 70's.
The Kung-Fu/Karate mags such as the late (a moment of silence..)IKF were even more guilty, due to the fact that they printed soooo many BS Sifus and stories, which we gobbled up as soon as we could get our hands on each issue.

[TenTigers]

Kung fu doesn't suck.

The guy who "trained" you sucked.

You should really try and understand the difference.

Quoted for coolness.:cool:

[IronFist]

Kung fu doesn't suck.

The guy who "trained" you sucked.

You should really try and understand the difference.

Would you extrapolate this to say that all the TMA guys who got beaten in UFC by BJJ/Muay Thai guys also were trained by guys who "sucked"?

[ginosifu]

The only TCMA guys I've met who can fight (and I have met a few) are the ones who incorporate San Shou/MMA/groundfighting into their mix.

Like I said, you don't know everyone and what they can or can not do.


holding a low horse stance builds muscular endurance in that particular position; a position which is not used in fighting.

You are missing the point a little bit. Static horse stance is good for beginners to build some muscle strengh and endurance. However, we move on to transitional movements from (example) - Horse to cross to horse or Stealing step into horse. These tranistional movements teach positioning for side door moves and set ups for throws etc etc.

Eventually we move on to doing different stance exercises with weights as we transition thru the various stance work. Weights we have used have been bricks, concrete blocks, dumbells etc. Like YKW has stated before functional strength is preferred over general strength programs.

You guys are not getting my point. When you are a beginner and you hear about fantasical or mystical kung fu and you go to learn it, eventually you find out there is nothing magical and it is all about hard work.

All this crap you guys type about strength: Yes strength is important, but what is BS is the amount time and energy you put into your Strength training. You do not need to spend hours in a gym doing squats or bench press for functional MA strength.

Your Major training time should be spent fighting, sparring, pad work, drilling, situational self defense etc etc.

Your Minor training time should be spent strength and agility training, form work, running, sprints etc etc.

Too much time on strength turns you into a hulking pile of meat with very little Martial Skill. Yeah you can club me with your round kick or outright tackle me cuz you blind sided me. But go toe to toe with me and you will find my combined skill and strength will win out, I don't care how big you are. I am only 5' 3" and 150 lbs and have taken out guys 6' and 230lbs made em tap etc etc.

IronFist: Yes there are people out there who claim BS Qi Gong, Sit in a Horse stance for hours, breaking spears on throats etc etc, but then again there are just as many people who do not.

Quit harping on all TCMA because you saw a couple of them doing BS stuff. I spent my youth fighting along with forms and qi gong. Although I have retired from the ring, I still will take on anyone that wants to challenge my skill. Again, I re-iterate, Touch hands with some of these guys you are harping on. If you can't or won't then please cool it on the TCMA bashing.

ginosifu

[Matthew]

Paying it forward. I wasted years on secret kung fu training that I thought was making me an awesome fighter. Turns out I got rocked by an MMA noob with like 2 months of experience.


I really don't know how long you studied for, especially who you trained with, but why wouldn't you be regularly sparring with friends/acquaintances/ others from other styles/gyms if your goal was to be a great fighter? Even at my first traditional CMA school we sparred regularly in school (with occasional friends of students from other disciplines coming in) and many of us sparred out of school in our own time to test our ability.



I actually thought that all the secret kung fu strength training I was doing was making me stronger. I went to the gym one day to test my strength and, lol, I was pretty weak. Slightly stronger than a totally untrained guy of my weight, but nowhere near the level I thought I would be (after all, the old kung fu masters knew all the secrets of strength development :rolleyes: ). I almost immediately dropped all the nonsense and began lifting weights and actually getting stronger.


Without mirroring the lack of detail in drakes post, I have similar sentiment.

If you are saying others "should at least understand the science of training" while you never tested your muscular strength until "one day," this sounds more like practitioner error.

I know it is easier to blame the teacher(for the past several years I have had no formal school because I pick and use my own methods based on the results I'm striving for), but if you were aiming at gaining muscular strength, why would you not regularly test it in your first week of training at that school?



When I decided to test my skills (as opposed to staying in the dark and believing I was a super ninja), I found out that I sucked and everything I had been told by the "masters" was wrong.

Again with the previous two comments. If you have a goal, why wouldn't you always be testing against it? At least in increments where when you feel you have obtained some skill in your art, testing it where you think you may have a weakness?



I'm pretty scientific by nature

It's easy to have a bad experience in anything. Scientific approach is to assess why/how/etc through regular testing/



Look, I don't care what style someone does. The important thing is to test it and see if it works.

Science! There we go

[ginosifu]

When I went to the gym and began reading physiology books, I realized that all the "strength" training I had been doing wasn't going to get me to my goals. I realized most TMA people (not TCMA, but TMA in general) have no idea about the science behind how the body works.

Maybe some people do not know how the body works and strength. Do you know that there are many heavy / power lifters that do not know how TCMA works? Many guysthat lift heavy and come to me for MA training, can not do kung fu moves properly because they do not stretch and or lift properly for MA.

I get these huge bulky guys that have shoulders, biceps, triceps bigger than my thighs and they can not swing their arms with correct fluidity for MA. Sure they can muscle thru the technique, but that is not how the technique works. Think of your arms like ropes with your fists resembling rocks at the end of these ropes. The ropes are arttached to your shoulders and swing from the shoulder. Centrifical force and a swinging motion is how the techniques is done. Muscle heads can only muscle thru it.


Paying it forward. I wasted years on secret kung fu training that I thought was making me an awesome fighter. Turns out I got rocked by an MMA noob with like 2 months of experience.

Just because you were not good at fighting at that point in your MA career does not necessarily mean kung fu is bad. Your teacher may not have been a good fighting teacher. You may not have been a good student at that time. Not everyone gets the best teacher. Not everyone is the best fighter.

ginosifu

ps: Sorry GoldenArms for derailing your thread.

[Drake]

Would you extrapolate this to say that all the TMA guys who got beaten in UFC by BJJ/Muay Thai guys also were trained by guys who "sucked"?

No. I'm saying that you getting whooped by an MMA noob is a pretty clear indicator that your instructor sucked. You added everything else. Especially if he only had two months of training. He probably could of whooped you without even touching MMA.

Sour grapes, and now you are lashing out at a community of tens of thousands because you got suckered by some fat dood who you never saw fight. And worse yet, I bet in the back of your mind you knew something was wrong, and now you're ****ed because your intuition was right, and you didn't do jack **** about it... for god knows how long.

[TenTigers]

sorry, it's either you or your teacher.
For you to get owned by a newb in MMA is someone's fault, although I am happy that you are at least training more sensibly now.
It's not the technique, unless again, check above.
Case in point-my guys took two firsts and a second (against his own team mate) in a local Sport JJ tourney. They had only been grappling once a week, for a month and a half, so they know mount, side control, guard, NS,collar choke, an armbar from each, and RNC. THAT's it. So they "grappled," maybe six times.
But, we've always done throws and sweeps, and our stand-up was good.
The MMA guys were not used to full throws. One kid landed a picture perfect shoulder throw. The BJJ guy didn't know what hit him.
Of course, once they were on the mat, it was more survival than anything else. One guy tried three attempts at an armbar-cause it's all he knew. Finally got it. It was funny to watch. Our guys would slam them, and then....um, armbar..?
(I told them,"You guys really have no place being here, but if you want to do it, go for it. You'll only learn." I really wasn't thrilled about them entering, but I was pleasantly surprised)
The point is, if you are trained well-AND you are a good student, then your art should not fail you. Only YOUR TRAINING will fail you.

[Yum Cha]

Did we fail to mention all the Chinese who knew all too well, that by simply being Asian, they could teach utter crap, and the gwailos would buy into it, hook, line and sinker.
And many of them did. There is a huge,"Don't ask, don't tell," Good 'ol Boys Club in CMA, that have supported each other (you lie and I'll swear to it) since the 70's.
The Kung-Fu/Karate mags such as the late (a moment of silence..)IKF were even more guilty, due to the fact that they printed soooo many BS Sifus and stories, which we gobbled up as soon as we could get our hands on each issue.

Amen brother, can't argue we got problems in the house...

[RWilson]

Would you extrapolate this to say that all the TMA guys who got beaten in UFC by BJJ/Muay Thai guys also were trained by guys who "sucked"?

Drake and every other kung fu defender would claim this. The Kung fu guys who fight and get beaten were not trained in the realz by a real teacher. The real king fu fighters:

1. Fought when there was not access to cameras.
2. Do not fight anymore now that camera phones are abundant(how convenient).
3. Do not post their fights on YouTube because they do not care about glory.
4. Are trained Kung fu gangsters...with no phone cameras.
5. Have deadly hand to hand contests behind closed doors.
6. Train fighters because they could never fight...like Dave R. His san da fight should be proof enough that form do not teach fighting.

[RWilson]

sorry, it's either you or your teacher.
For you to get owned by a newb in MMA is someone's fault, although I am happy that you are at least training more sensibly now.
It's not the technique, unless again, check above.
Case in point-my guys took two firsts and a second (against his own team mate) in a local Sport JJ tourney. They had only been grappling once a week, for a month and a half, so they know mount, side control, guard, NS,collar choke, an armbar from each, and RNC. THAT's it. So they "grappled," maybe six times.
But, we've always done throws and sweeps, and our stand-up was good.
The MMA guys were not used to full throws. One kid landed a picture perfect shoulder throw. The BJJ guy didn't know what hit him.
Of course, once they were on the mat, it was more survival than anything else. One guy tried three attempts at an armbar-cause it's all he knew. Finally got it. It was funny to watch. Our guys would slam them, and then....um, armbar..?
(I told them,"You guys really have no place being here, but if you want to do it, go for it. You'll only learn." I really wasn't thrilled about them entering, but I was pleasantly surprised)
The point is, if you are trained well-AND you are a good student, then your art should not fail you. Only YOUR TRAINING will fail you.

Really? You are going to hide behind "your guys" like Ross does. How many mma people have you sparred with and beaten with your years of tcma training? Any? Stop hiding behind the exploits of "your guys" because they are not you and they probably train modern mma more than Kung fu. I saw a video of you doing a form in China. Sorry but you ain't beating trained mma people doing 300 year old folk dancing.

[TenTigers]

Really? You are going to hide behind "your guys" like Ross does. How many mma people have you sparred with and beaten with your years of tcma training? Any? Stop hiding behind the exploits of "your guys" because they are not you and they probably train modern mma more than Kung fu. I saw a video of you doing a form in China. Sorry but you ain't beating trained mma people doing 300 year old folk dancing.

Nope, you are right. My guys are not me.
I'm 54 yrs old. I'm certainly not going into the cage anytime soon.

My "guys" are teens and young adults, and My guys do train "MMA."
It's what we've always done. Striking, kicking, throwing, and grappling.
I have always brought in outside teachers from Collegieate wrestling, BJJ, Shuai Jiao, NHB fighters,etc.

We have always fought standup, and if it goes to the ground, submission, since the mid-eighties, way before UFC and MMA became the sh1t.
The difference is that now, we are working more on our ground game, and using more technically sound training methods, and a methodical approach.

I guess if you had actually taken the time to read my post with some comprehension, you would've seen that I am not MMA bashing, nor am I TCMA grandstanding,
but as usual, your mouth/keyboard is in forward, while your brain is in neutral.
You are so quick to jump on anything and everything, and most of the time, you are just speaking nonsense.
You need to grow up. Seriously.

[RWilson]

Nope, you are right. My guys are not me.
I'm 54 yrs old. I'm certainly not going into the cage anytime soon.

My "guys" are teens and young adults, and My guys do train "MMA."
It's what we've always done. Striking, kicking, throwing, and grappling.
I have always brought in outside teachers from Collegieate wrestling, BJJ, Shuai Jiao, NHB fighters,etc.

We have always fought standup, and if it goes to the ground, submission, since the mid-eighties, way before UFC and MMA became the sh1t.
The difference is that now, we are working more on our ground game, and using more technically sound training methods, and a methodical approach.

I guess if you had actually taken the time to read my post with some comprehension, you would've seen that I am not MMA bashing, nor am I TCMA grandstanding,
but as usual, your mouth/keyboard is in forward, while your brain is in neutral.
You are so quick to jump on anything and everything, and most of the time, you are just speaking nonsense.
You need to grow up. Seriously.


Lots of typing about what you do...but not a lot of video. Why don't you kung fu guys give up the whole kung fu training fantasy? Your guys are winning due to mma training and not doing form training while trying to be a Chinese guy even though you are a white American.

Atleast you are open to seeing that the Kung fu you got trained in(whatever animal/bug style it was) cannot do the job alone.

[TenTigers]

Pretty simple concept: Different tools for different jobs.
Our stand-up comes from that bug/animal stuff you mentioned.
Our throws come from Hapkido, Jiu-Jutsu, wrestling, shuai-jiao, and wherever.
Our ground game comes from the same sources.

[hskwarrior]

Your guys are winning due to mma training and not doing form training while trying to be a Chinese guy even though you are a white American.

someone feels as if they are superior to the sick men of asia huh?

everyone should post their forms and dedicate it to Rwilson.......LMAO. another broken record.....

funny thing is, you don't hear about Kung fu people beating up on their wifes, killing people, raping people like a lot of the MMA type seems to be doing as of late. maybe we don't do that stuff BECAUSE we practice forms.

LMAO

[Yum Cha]

someone feels as if they are superior to the sick men of asia huh?

everyone should post their forms and dedicate it to Rwilson.......LMAO. another broken record.....

funny thing is, you don't hear about Kung fu people beating up on their wifes, killing people, raping people like a lot of the MMA type seems to be doing as of late. maybe we don't do that stuff BECAUSE we practice forms.

LMAO

Juice, roid rage!
Style doesn't make a low life, that takes significant personal effort.

[IronFist]

lol, you guys act like I'm the only TMA guy who has been schooled by an MMA noob and therefore it must've been me or my instructors that was the problem http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

All I'm saying is there's a reason that champion fighters use the techniques they do and train the way they do.


strong guys muscle their way through techniques

Sure, there are some really big and strong guys who "muscle" their way through movements. That doesn't mean all big strong guys do that. I love how people assume that it does and try to use that as a defense against weightlifting.

A disparity in skill can also sometimes be overcome by superior strength. I've seen small and weak people overcome by people who didn't know what they were doing but were really strong. And conversely, some of the best BJJ guys I've seen were like lanky skinny but could tool big strong guys without really trying.

What you should be afraid of are the skilled guys who are also very strong.

I agree strength training should not take up the majority of your time. You can get very strong with a brief powerlifting program that takes less than 30 minutes a day. In fact, doing so, or a little kettlebell routine, will put you above about 80% of other "martial artists."

Learn techniques that are proven to be successful in fights.
Get strong.
Get endurance.

Hey, if TMA techniques are allowing you to become a competent fighter and that's what you like doing, keep it up. In my experience, however, they don't. And from looking at years of NHB results where anyone was allowed to participate, it seems that everyone else's experience is similar.

Like I said, there's a reason why professional fighters don't use TMA techniques.

Also, TMA guys who incorporate MMA stuff into their training for fighting in the ring can't really say they're doing TMA. Which form has jab cross hook in it? Which form has boxing shell defense? Stop it. If you're using MMA techniques then you're doing MMA. A wing chun guy who gets in the ring, has a boxing stance, throws boxing punches and Muay Thai kicks and then passes guard can't say he's using wing chun. Sometimes he'll be like "it's MMA techniques with wing chun principles." Nonsense. If I take jazz guitar lessons and then get up on stage and play heavy metal, I'm playing heavy metal. If I incorporate a few jazz techniques into a solo here and there, you'll be able to hear them and go "ah, that little run was jazz inspired!" If a TMA guy is using TMA in a fight, we should see it and go "ah, that's such and such TMA technique!" Boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, those are not TMA techniques.

You see it from time to time. Sometimes a dude will do a jump backward spinning kick out of nowhere in UFC, and the announces are all "omg! A jump spinning back kick! That definitely is reminiscent of his shotokan (or whatever style) roots!"

But I LOL in all caps at people using MMA techniques and then afterward saying they were using TMA techniques. And also at the people using MMA techniques who claim they are "based in TMA principles." How does that work? Were you thinking about wing chun vertical fist punches while you were throwing that horizontal boxing jab?

As much as I don't think it's too effective for fighting, I love TMA because it's been a part of my life for decades. In all seriousness, I was very happy while I was practicing TMA. As far as doing it goes, TMA is more fun to practice than MMA. I would be all over any TMA school that won UFC. I'm talking along the lines of moving to be close enough to the school to train.

But it's silly to say that there aren't some techniques that are better than others. All sports evolve. Look at how hockey goalies today play compared to 20 years ago. Someone invented a better technique (butterfly) and now almost everyone does it that way. Granted, there are still some guys who do it the old way, but the difference is they can still make it work. I haven't seen any TMA guys "make it work" in NHB competitions against MMA guys. I would love to be wrong about this, so please post evidence to the contrary.

There is always some excuse when the TMA guys lose:

- he's too deadly for the ring
- his school didn't train correctly
- bad/fake lineage
- he didn't practice the basics enough
- bad gong/couldn't hold horse stance for an hour
- etc.

It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the techniques themselves :rolleyes:

Of course not! After all, it's the fighter, not the style :D

[IronFist]

funny thing is, you don't hear about Kung fu people beating up on their wifes, killing people, raping people like a lot of the MMA type seems to be doing as of late. maybe we don't do that stuff BECAUSE we practice forms.



It must be the MMA corrupting their minds.

Alert the media! MMA makes people beat their wives and rape people http://smiliesftw.com/x/eek3run.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

[bawang]

leung ting must have secretly took a gracie dvd course.

[ginosifu]

Lots of typing about what you do...but not a lot of video. Why don't you kung fu guys give up the whole kung fu training fantasy? Your guys are winning due to mma training and not doing form training while trying to be a Chinese guy even though you are a white American.

Atleast you are open to seeing that the Kung fu you got trained in(whatever animal/bug style it was) cannot do the job alone.

RWilson: You need to stop assuming what you have no clue about. You are making an A$$ out of your self. How do you know if anyone of us has fought or were good or bad in our youth as fighters?

There is video of me fighting SC out there on the web somewhere. There is also video of me doing San Shou. I was 35 - 0 in SC in National Competition (I lost twice, once in China and once in France to the same guy). I was 14 - 1 in San Shou. Now it is not my responsibility to provide videos for you haters (The video are on somebodys DVD's for sale if you wanna buy em).

I fight..... but I also practice forms... those ancient folk dance as you call them are just training tools that TCMA use. Now put that on a stick and shove it up your A$$ and quit talking about sh!t that you have no clue about.

ginosifu

[RWilson]

RWilson: You need to stop assuming what you have no clue about. You are making an A$$ out of your self. How do you know if anyone of us has fought or were good or bad in our youth as fighters?

There is video of me fighting SC out there on the web somewhere. There is also video of me doing San Shou. I was 35 - 0 in SC in National Competition (I lost twice, once in China and once in France to the same guy). I was 14 - 1 in San Shou. Now it is not my responsibility to provide videos for you haters (The video are on somebodys DVD's for sale if you wanna buy em).

I fight..... but I also practice forms... those ancient folk dance as you call them are just training tools that TCMA use. Now put that on a stick and shove it up your A$$ and quit talking about sh!t that you have no clue about.

ginosifu


Hey tough guy,

No one is talking about you personally so stop getting all offended. You study Chinese judo so obviously you are not a forms fairy. As long as one's main training is developing real skills and not form then they are fine.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I love tough guys who bash on everyone else, and spout off how an entire branch of martial arts suck, and how the guy that teaches them sucks, and how everyone should post videos of themselves (even though they of course don't post any themselves), and the kicker is that they themselves suck, yet they have every right to bash on arts they have never trained in.:confused:

Did it ever occur to some of you that maybe you just suck and fail at life. Perhaps the problem is that no matter what you train, you do not have any natural skill that is also required no matter what fuc***cking art you train!!!

You guys sound like a bunch of high school girls whining because they didn't get asked to the prom. Seriously, if you are fighters I pity the future of martial arts.

[Drake]

lol, you guys act like I'm the only TMA guy who has been schooled by an MMA noob and therefore it must've been me or my instructors that was the problem

Actually... you are pretty rare. A person who trained for so long in whatever it was you were training in, only to get whooped by some dude who basically had no real fighting experience.

Judging by your attitude, I am reevaluating my statement to suggest maybe it was both a sucky instructor and your bad attitude that contributed to you getting beat down.

[ginosifu]

Hey tough guy,

No one is talking about you personally so stop getting all offended. You study Chinese judo so obviously you are not a forms fairy. As long as one's main training is developing real skills and not form then they are fine.

The problem is, that I am a Forms Fairy and yes I can fight with them. Yes there are some TCMA guys out there who can not fight and may be a bad representation for TCMA. You can not judge everyone by the few bad apples you may have encountered. In all styles there good fighters and bad fighters, good teachers and bad teachers... etc etc.

When you flame on my kung fu brothers, you are flaming on me. Please think before you speak (or type).

ginosifu

[ginosifu]

Like I said, there's a reason why professional fighters don't use TMA techniques.

Sport Fighting is different than Street Fighting. However, I will agree with you that Sport MA can help get somewhat prepared for the street cuz you have a good base of resistance training.

Sport MA is just what it is = SPORTS MA. Sports MA does not (in certain ways) prepare you for knives, beer bottles, multiple opponents, keys in the face etc etc. Most TCMA prepares you for all types of fighting situations including Sports MA, War / Battle Field, Street Defense. Sports MA does not prepare you for the guy with the knife, it just doesn't.

You put any top MMA star up against a top knife fighter in the street and see who comes out a sprinkler system.


Also, TMA guys who incorporate MMA stuff into their training for fighting in the ring can't really say they're doing TMA. Which form has jab cross hook in it? Which form has boxing shell defense? Stop it. If you're using MMA techniques then you're doing MMA. A wing chun guy who gets in the ring, has a boxing stance, throws boxing punches and Muay Thai kicks and then passes guard can't say he's using wing chun. Sometimes he'll be like "it's MMA techniques with wing chun principles." Nonsense. If I take jazz guitar lessons and then get up on stage and play heavy metal, I'm playing heavy metal. If I incorporate a few jazz techniques into a solo here and there, you'll be able to hear them and go "ah, that little run was jazz inspired!" If a TMA guy is using TMA in a fight, we should see it and go "ah, that's such and such TMA technique!" Boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, those are not TMA techniques.

TCMA techniques are geared for old school self defense. If we want to participate in Sports MA events we modify are techniques for whatever venue we are in. Then it turns into San Shou / Muay Thai etc etc. We as TCMA do not bring TCMA techniques into the Sports MA arena, we bring Sports MA techniques into the arena and that is what MMA fighter have..... Sports MA

ginosifu

[TenTigers]

"Also, TMA guys who incorporate MMA stuff into their training for fighting in the ring can't really say they're doing TMA. Which form has jab cross hook in it? Which form has boxing shell defense? Stop it.
"
Seurng Gung Fook Fu (double bows subduing Tiger) is found in most Hung-Ga sets, and is exactly the shell defense, with one caveat-we cover while we crash the opponent's guard, to occupy his space, bridge, etc.





" Nonsense. If I take jazz guitar lessons and then get up on stage and play heavy metal, I'm playing heavy metal. If I incorporate a few jazz techniques into a solo here and there, you'll be able to hear them and go "ah, that little run was jazz inspired!"

Peter Frampton's stuff -listen to Humble Pie Rockin the Fillmore, not simply jazz inspired, more like rock inspired jazz riffs.
Steve Howe, another Jazz player playing rock/prog.
Larry Carlton, Al DiMeola,
John McLaughlin is a whole other story.
Not that this as anything to do with the debate- just sayin.

[Drake]

Funny... because heavy metal, rock, blues, and virtually any form of American music was in some way derived from Jazz.

The irony of that statement is not lost on me... :D

[David Jamieson]

RWilson will be taking a break for a while from here.
Maybe when he comes back, he'll be able to contribute as opposed to merely heckling the lot of you, and me.

Sustained mockery? That's a bannin'

[IronFist]

You put any top MMA star up against a top knife fighter in the street and see who comes out a sprinkler system.



What? Why does the other guy get a knife?

Does the MMA guy get a knife too?

I also didn't realize we were talking about knife fighting in this thread.

[ginosifu]

What? Why does the other guy get a knife?

Does the MMA guy get a knife too?

I also didn't realize we were talking about knife fighting in this thread.

Yeah sure... he can have one. He still is going to be stabbed a lot. Just cuz he's gotta knife does not mean he knows how to use it.

The analogy is that MMA fighters don't use TCMA techniques because they are not the proper tool for the ring. You say MMA fighters don't use TCMA cuz they suck. I say TCMA techniques are geared for different purposes and we can modify them for MMA but that does not mean they are useless. They just are not right for the Sports MA RING!

Let's take my monkey style for instance, there is a lot of eye scratching and groin strikes. If I have to take away these techniques cuz of MMA rules then I am no longer able to use Monkey and I wall have to switch to San Shou or Muay Thai techniques for the MMA fight.

Sports MA is not the same as TCMA. They are like apples and oranges. They are both fruits.... but different in their own right.

ginosifu

[David Jamieson]

What? Why does the other guy get a knife?

Does the MMA guy get a knife too?

I also didn't realize we were talking about knife fighting in this thread.

Here's the thing. Kung fu is big on weapons.
To want to force Kung fu into a profile of mma and say that mma is the way, then it's only fair to make those demands back.

I mean, it's all garbage talk anyway, but why doesn't mma include knives? Swords? Blunts? throwing weapons? why? It doesn't make sense when if we are talking about efficient fighting methods, then it's about weapons superiorty.

in which case, the newb kung fu swordplay guy will indeed kill the mma guy with a single thrust through the heart followed by a written note that many who do kung fu, don't play sports. :p

I know this is silly. But this is how the argument appears to many of us who have put our years in and then endure some dude with...well nothing, mocking that effort?

yeah, whatever. lol :p

[IronFist]

Actually... you are pretty rare. A person who trained for so long in whatever it was you were training in, only to get whooped by some dude who basically had no real fighting experience.

I dunno http://smiliesftw.com/x/dunno.gif (http://smiliesftw.com) We saw it happen fairly often.

Dudes with TKD black belts or whatever, years of TMA experience would come train with us, get knocked around (gently, fortunately my school had no egos) like crazy on the first day during some basic standup training, and either a) freak out and never come back or b) accept the wakeup call and stay.

Sure they taught a specific way of fighting at our school, but when people raised the question of other styles our instructor said "hey, this is the place to try it out." That's what was so awesome. It wasn't one of those places where it's like "you have to do it our way!" We were taught crazy monkey standup (or a variant at times), but everyone was more than welcome to use or incorporate whatever they wanted. Test it out. See if it works. If it works for you, then by all means, keep doing it.

[IronFist]

Yeah sure... he can have one. He still is going to be stabbed a lot. Just cuz he's gotta knife does not mean he knows how to use it.

The analogy is that MMA fighters don't use TCMA techniques because they are not the proper tool for the ring. You say MMA fighters don't use TCMA cuz they suck. I say TCMA techniques are geared for different purposes and we can modify them for MMA but that does not mean they are useless. They just are not right for the Sports MA RING!

Let's take my monkey style for instance, there is a lot of eye scratching and groin strikes. If I have to take away these techniques cuz of MMA rules then I am no longer able to use Monkey and I wall have to switch to San Shou or Muay Thai techniques for the MMA fight.

Sports MA is not the same as TCMA. They are like apples and oranges. They are both fruits.... but different in their own right.

ginosifu

So that was basically the "too deadly for the ring" argument, right?

You know it's really hard to gouge out the eyes of a resisting opponent who is moving his head around right? Have you tried it? Have you had a dude put on a helmet or goggles or whatever and fight you back while you try to get your thumbs (or fingers or whatever) in the correct place for an eye strike?

Extrapolating from your logic, it sounds like without eye and groin strikes, kung fu is a worthless fighting art.

Because you just said that:


Let's take my monkey style for instance, there is a lot of eye scratching and groin strikes. If I have to take away these techniques cuz of MMA rules then I am no longer able to use Monkey and I wall have to switch to San Shou or Muay Thai techniques for the MMA fight

"if I can't use eye scratching and groin strikes, I can't use my kung fu anymore and have to use San Shou or Muay Thai"

Kung fu has dozens (hundreds?) of techniques. If you can't use two of them the system is ineffective?

[rett]

You're missing the point, dude. A style that is for fending off homicidal predators on the street isn't translatable to gentlemanly duels (or rather testosterone-fuelled, ritualized monkey-dance rituals) in the ring.

That's what ring fighting is, a high-school ritual, formatted for tv consumption. I'm exaggerating, but since you lot started the name-calling and ridicule here's back atcha.

Bigmouthed MMA trolls are just defending a wussy high-school monkey dance to show who's the biggest jock on campus. Pathetic.

That's the best reason NOT to train MMA... not to have to be an MMA guy. (the bad kind, I've no problem with all the one's who just get on with their sport) I'd rather be beat up than be imprisoned in the mindset of a bullshido troll.

[David Jamieson]

So that was basically the "too deadly for the ring" argument, right?



nope. It can be adapted into mere kickboxing. It's not that hard to do, but then it's not kung fu anymore, it's well...kickboxing.

[IronFist]

nope. It can be adapted into mere kickboxing. It's not that hard to do, but then it's not kung fu anymore, it's well...kickboxing.

At least we are in agreement that it is kickboxing http://smiliesftw.com/x/highfive.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

But he basically said "without eye gouging and groin attacks, I can't use kung fu anymore and have to use San Shou/Muay Thai instead."

Sucks that without two techniques you have to change styles. It would probably be easier just to do San Shou or Muay Thai and add in the occasional eye gouge or groin strike rather than train an entire system full of techniques you can no longer use when groin attacks and eye gouges aren't allowed.

[David Jamieson]

At least we are in agreement that it is kickboxing http://smiliesftw.com/x/highfive.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

But he basically said "without eye gouging and groin attacks, I can't use kung fu anymore and have to use San Shou/Muay Thai instead."

Sucks that without two techniques you have to change styles. It would probably be easier just to do San Shou or Muay Thai and add in the occasional eye gouge or groin strike rather than train an entire system full of techniques you can no longer use when groin attacks and eye gouges aren't allowed.

Me personally I don't see a lot of value in training to sport fight.
For one thing, that's not my thing. I really don't care to invest in that sort of loss for myself personally. I invest it into Kung Fu because that's my choice and that's what I liked and also that's what I wanted to do.

That's the bottom line. mma training is fine. I have nothing against it. I like an dprefer kung fu practice. It has a lot of things that you simply cannot get in other places, whether or not mma guys like or don't like skinny girls awkwardly remembering forms and posing in their cleanest silk pjs.

It's fun, it's healthy, it's interesting and it beats the pants off of no training to defend yourself at all.

You could of course pick any outlet to that end. It's unimportant. It is equally unimportant what a boxer thinks about Judo or what a jiu jitsu guy thinks about karate. they don't do those things, have different reasons for doing what they do and therefore are creating a huge time wasting argument.

just enjoy what you do. It's not a problem and no one really needs to worry too much about honing their skills to deal with roving bandits, except or Frank and only because he lives ina pretty sketchy area of town. lol :p

[IronFist]

Me personally I don't see a lot of value in training to sport fight.
For one thing, that's not my thing. I really don't care to invest in that sort of loss for myself personally. I invest it into Kung Fu because that's my choice and that's what I liked and also that's what I wanted to do.

That's the bottom line. mma training is fine. I have nothing against it. I like an dprefer kung fu practice. It has a lot of things that you simply cannot get in other places, whether or not mma guys like or don't like skinny girls awkwardly remembering forms and posing in their cleanest silk pjs.

It's fun, it's healthy, it's interesting and it beats the pants off of no training to defend yourself at all.

You could of course pick any outlet to that end. It's unimportant. It is equally unimportant what a boxer thinks about Judo or what a jiu jitsu guy thinks about karate. they don't do those things, have different reasons for doing what they do and therefore are creating a huge time wasting argument.

just enjoy what you do. It's not a problem and no one really needs to worry too much about honing their skills to deal with roving bandits, except or Frank and only because he lives ina pretty sketchy area of town. lol :p

Cheers dude, I always said people should do what makes them happy. If TCMA or whatever is working for someone and letting them meet their goals, then by all means, they should keep at it http://smiliesftw.com/x/biggthumpup.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

I also have mentioned before that there are some things you get from TMA that you don't get from MMA. I never said TMA categorically sucks and has no benefit at all.

[ginosifu]

So that was basically the "too deadly for the ring" argument, right?

Who said anything about too deadly for the ring?


You know it's really hard to gouge out the eyes of a resisting opponent who is moving his head around right?

Yes, I have. At my school we fight until tap out and during this I teach eye gauging and groin strikes. Yes I can poke someones eyes from a strike while they were moving.... been there done that.

Yes I have grappled someone one on the ground and started digging my fingers into their orbits (grabbing their skull and sinking my finger tips into their orbits does not actually hurt them that badly, it feel weird to them and they scream like little babies, but my aim is quite good.... been there done that.


Kung fu has dozens (hundreds?) of techniques. If you can't use two of them the system is ineffective?

Techniques that are allowable in MMA or other sports MA events are typically San Shou, Kickboxing and Muay Thai style techniques. All MA style have these "JAB, CROSS, HOOK type techniques, but TCMA use them in combination with other techniques not allowed in Sports MA events.

A lot of those hundreds of TCMA techniques are geared to kill. As soon as I start kneeing a guy in his balls or grabbing his throat I will get dis qualified form a Sports MA event, so we have to modify them. Then they are no longer our original TCMA techniques, now they are considered Sports MA techniques.

There are many TCMA techniques that can cross over into Sports MA, but there are many that can not. IronFist: I did San Shou for a long time. This is mt experience, San Shou is not TCMA it is modern Sports MA.

ginosifu

[IronFist]

Who said anything about too deadly for the ring?



You did here:


The analogy is that MMA fighters don't use TCMA techniques because they are not the proper tool for the ring. You say MMA fighters don't use TCMA cuz they suck. I say TCMA techniques are geared for different purposes and we can modify them for MMA but that does not mean they are useless. They just are not right for the Sports MA RING!

Let's take my monkey style for instance, there is a lot of eye scratching and groin strikes. If I have to take away these techniques cuz of MMA rules then I am no longer able to use Monkey and I wall have to switch to San Shou or Muay Thai techniques for the MMA fight.



Yes, I have. At my school we fight until tap out and during this I teach eye gauging and groin strikes. Yes I can poke someones eyes from a strike while they were moving.... been there done that.

You are the 1%.


A lot of those hundreds of TCMA techniques are geared to kill.

Too deadly for the ring.


San Shou is not TCMA

We are in agreement here.

[wenshu]

Muscle hypertrophy is a response to increasing loads placed upon it (assuming the volume, intensity and diet are also correct, but those are not up for debate here). There is a finite limit to what can be achieved with bodyweight in regards to maximal strength and size. You will never get a huge bodybuilder chest from doing pushups. You will never get large quads from doing bodyweight squats or even pistols (one legged squats). You'll never get arms and shoulders like that guy has from handstand pushups and pullups alone nor even from the rigors of gymnastics training (static holds, explosive stuff, etc.) alone.

When someone has the development of that guy you can reasonably assume that some hypertrophy specific training has taken place (unless the guy happens to be one of those myostatin gene mutation cases...).

Years ago, respected KFM member Ford Prefect (whose knowledge of strength training exceeds my own by 10x) performed an experiment where he stopped lifting weights and did only bodyweight/gymnastic exercises for a while. The results were as predicted by SAID: his ability to perform the gymnastics exercises increased significantly while his maximal strength (as tested with weights) decreased. There's a whole thread about it somewhere in the training forum.

That's your argument? Push ups won't make you big and some pseudonymous guy did an "experiment".

Exceeding your knowledge by several orders of magnitude isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

Gymnastics strength training is slightly more involved than pull ups and push ups.

[hskwarrior]

Me personally I don't see a lot of value in training to sport fight.

unless thats your goal. for some reason i feel MMA will lose its popularity when the next big thing takes its place. for example, OMG everyone wanted to learn BJJ after the gracies dominated UFC. Now MMA is in the spotlight and its only a matter of time before that light fades on them too.

In the aftermath of MMA's existence it did one thing for the evolutionary minded individuals. it forced people to re-evaluate their training methodologies and to admit the wrongly placed focus and energy on forms competition while living on the past combative reputation of our elders without creating our own.

But, i always say everyone comes back home. and if TCMA is your home, its ok to go galavanting with other styles because when you come back home you will have much much more knowledge and experience than what you started with. but you'll be at home again. Personally, i'd SO rather be known as a CLF guy that is experienced in MMA than a MMA guy with CLF experience.

IMHO, there are things that both sides have that the other doesn't. People who have done forms and fighting as opposed to just fighting knows that forms practice is a separate entity and fighting is its own entity. Weapons is its own entity. but its perfectly ok to practice forms.....for those who do, they know what it takes to master a form. it can be very TECHNICAL. plus much more. either way, there is nothing a MODERN MMA person could do to make me leave TCMA.....
EVER.

the art of mixed martial....LOL

[David Jamieson]

My Father was a gymnast and a diver.

They never used external weights.

Ever.

Even today, I don't think you'll find too many olympic gymnasts who use weights to train.

wickedly hard bodyweight routines? yes, all day every day!

[wenshu]

A few exceptions aside, the only time a gymnast lifts weights is to embarrass portly powerlifters with their numbers.

[IronFist]

A few exceptions aside, the only time a gymnast lifts weights is to embarrass portly powerlifters with their numbers.

Are you speaking from your experience training with elite level gymnasts and coaches?

[David Jamieson]

Are you speaking from your experience training with elite level gymnasts and coaches?

I'm speaking second hand from my dead dad, but his experience was just that.
No weights except the body.

Truth is, the bars, rings, beam, pommel horse and floor have special training required for them and it involves the device and the body using it.

[wenshu]

Are you speaking from your experience training with elite level gymnasts and coaches?

No. I was being a smart ass.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_interviews/all_muscle_no_iron

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Types of posters found on an internet martial arts forum:

1. TMAers who believe in their art and don't believe in cross training.

2. MMAers who like to come onto a forum and tell everyone not doing MMA that they are wrong and suck.

3. Former TMAers who got schooled by an MMAer and have now "seen the light" of their wicked ways.

4. Martial Artists who simply train their style and whatever other style, technique, philosophy, ect, that they feel will improve their martial arts.

5. TMAers blinded by style loyalty and hatred of anything that challenges what their instructor taught them.

6. MMAers with an open mind who see the benefit of TMA and it's training methods.

7. Trolls

8. Posters who constantly bash and ridicule others with the "bullshido" mentality of how everything other than what they were told on an internet forum sucks and that even though they suck themselves (often by their own self-admission) they have every right to bash others who they really don't know anything about.

If I left anyone out sorry, my fu**ck you's for the day were in limited quantity.:)

[hskwarrior]

If I left anyone out sorry, my fu**ck you's for the day were in limited quantity

Here....you can borrow one of mine, i have plenty left.

F@CK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[wenshu]

9. People who like to make lists.

[mooyingmantis]

I don't know any kung fu shifu that claim their techniques are "too deadly for the ring". However, many tournament and MMA bouts must think traditional TCMA techniques are TOO DEADLY FOR THE RING since they do not allow them. :)

Is TCMA out of touch with modern sport fighting? I don't see how.

Let's look at the techniques taught in the first road of the traditional Tanglangquan form Meihua Lu (Plum Flower Road):

01. First technique is an standing elbow lock/break.
02. Next technique is a wrist strike to the groin. Some interpret it as a throw.
03. Third technique is an combination punch and knee strike.
04. Fourth technique throw to rear.
05. Fifth technique is a hair grab and knee strike.
06. Sixth technique is a neck twist to slam attacker to the ground.
07. Seventh technique clinch break and front kick.
08. Eighth technique is a throw to the rear.
09. Ninth technique is another throw.
10. Tenth technique is a three punch combination.
11. Last technique is a low kick to the leg or groin.

In the above eleven techniques are: locks, throws, knee strikes, punches and kicks. The only thing missing is ground-based grappling. Not too bad for just one form from one style.

[sanjuro_ronin]

My Father was a gymnast and a diver.

They never used external weights.

Ever.

Even today, I don't think you'll find too many olympic gymnasts who use weights to train.

wickedly hard bodyweight routines? yes, all day every day!

High level gymnasts can't do any more weight training than they already do.
SOME still do some olympic lifts ( the chinese do, not sure about the russians...)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_daP1IWY28o&feature=related

[IronFist]

Types of posters found on an internet martial arts forum:

1. TMAers who believe in their art and don't believe in cross training.

2. MMAers who like to come onto a forum and tell everyone not doing MMA that they are wrong and suck.

3. Former TMAers who got schooled by an MMAer and have now "seen the light" of their wicked ways.

4. Martial Artists who simply train their style and whatever other style, technique, philosophy, ect, that they feel will improve their martial arts.

5. TMAers blinded by style loyalty and hatred of anything that challenges what their instructor taught them.

6. MMAers with an open mind who see the benefit of TMA and it's training methods.

7. Trolls

8. Posters who constantly bash and ridicule others with the "bullshido" mentality of how everything other than what they were told on an internet forum sucks and that even though they suck themselves (often by their own self-admission) they have every right to bash others who they really don't know anything about.

If I left anyone out sorry, my fu**ck you's for the day were in limited quantity.:)

Lol I think that about covers it.

[TenTigers]

watch this....

[IronFist]

^ I think you forgot to include a link to the vid.

[Lucas]

It's kind of like how being good at Guitar Hero doesn't mean you can play guitar.

what about rocksmith!?!? :eek:


i think many times we place far too much responsibility on teachers.

if a student does not ask the right questions, it is not the teachers responsibility if that student fails later on.

[IronFist]

what about rocksmith!?!? :eek:


i think many times we place far too much responsibility on teachers.

if a student does not ask the right questions, it is not the teachers responsibility if that student fails later on.

Sounds like lazy teacher mentality to me.

"Why'd your student fail?"

"Cuz he didn't ask the right questions. Obviously it's not my responsibility to teach him unless he does."

[Fa Xing]

Sounds like lazy teacher mentality to me.

"Why'd your student fail?"

"Cuz he didn't ask the right questions. Obviously it's not my responsibility to teach him unless he does."

I really think teacher-student relationship is a two-way street 50/50. The teacher should teach all he knows, but that is not always an easy thing to do all the time. Quite frankly, the student needs to be, for the lack of a better word, creative and thinking about their own training when they are training or not.

I have often asked my teachers questions that others may not have, or even sometimes ask questions others may have but are unsure/afraid to ask those questions for whatever reason. The path of the martial artist is very much an individual experience as it is an experience with one's fellow classmates.