Entrance Strategies

[Brule]

What's yours? Kung fu is about getting in and finishing, not playing from the outside tap tappity. How do you get in and finish? Are you one who feints? Are you one who is the hunter or the one who responds to the attack? Do you have the school of thought that if your opponent moves away you move in, if he moves in, you move in, if he stays, you move in?

What do you use and what works for you?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Blind side angles or "smashing" up the middle.

[Frost]

Depends, usually either cover and crash using crazy monkey, of level change under their attacks and clinch the body

Getting close to clinch and hit (my goal) isn’t usually that hard, people usually plant to throw bombs or stalk you down and come to you, if they are playing the outside game then I cut the angle put them against an immovable object (like a cage, wall ring etc) or just run them down with a blast double lol

[Drake]

Blind side angles or "smashing" up the middle.

Concur....

[hskwarrior]

Blind side angles or "smashing" up the middle.

I don't appreciate you stealing the words from my mouth.....

I CHALLENGE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LMAO

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't appreciate you stealing the words from my mouth.....

I CHALLENGE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LMAO

We meet on the field of onions, horseshoes at 20 paces !!

[hskwarrior]

We meet on the field of onions, horseshoes at 20 paces !!

Ah! sweet victory will be had on the field of sweet onions....no cheating on the paces....its 20.....not 19 or 19.5 or 19.5.5......okay? ok! No witnesses.....that way i can claim total victory. :D

[YouKnowWho]

crash using crazy monkey,
What's "crazy monkey"? Could you explain it?

Is it "虎抱头(Hu Bao Tou) - tiger holding the head (double combing hair)"?


Blind side angles or "smashing" up the middle.

By using the TCMA terms that will be to enter through the

- side door, or
- front door.

Besides the "side door" and "front door" concept, I like to add the

- outer door - wrist range,
- middle door - elbow range,
- inner door - shoulder range, and
- back door - behind the back.

Also how you enter has a lot to do with whether you and your opponent are in

- uniform stance (same sides forward) or
- mirror stance (different sides forward).

If you are a "grappler", you should notice the 4 sides concepts:

- outside of your opponent's right leg.
- inside of your opponent's right leg.
- outside of your opponent's left leg.
- inside of your opponent's left leg.

[CFT]

As a sign of my obvious maturity I'll refrain from commenting about back door entry strategies ;)

[hskwarrior]

This is a curious entry method.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-xxkE30elDk

[YouKnowWho]

As a sign of my obvious maturity I'll refrain from commenting about back door entry strategies ;)

When you and your opponent are in "mirror stance", it's not that hard to enter his "back door".

[Robinhood]

Your opponent will let you know the path in, throw the water , it will find the crack.

[TenTigers]

Do you have the school of thought that if your opponent moves away you move in, if he moves in, you move in, if he stays, you move in?


stealin' my lines, eh?
:D

The first three posts basically sums up our strategy for entrance.
I'll add, I like to stick something at them to deal with as I bridge the gap.(low kick, thrust kick, round kick,sometimes simultaneous hand and foot etc)
It draws their fire, or occupies their bridge so I can close from outside critical distance to inside, without getting hit on the way in.

[Yum Cha]

stealin' my lines, eh?
:D

The first three posts basically sums up our strategy for entrance.
I'll add, I like to stick something at them to deal with as I bridge the gap.(low kick, thrust kick, round kick,sometimes simultaneous hand and foot etc)
It draws their fire, or occupies their bridge so I can close from outside critical distance to inside, without getting hit on the way in.

Bridge fighting, my favorite.

Another question, when does it start? Are you engaging when you look across the ref? what about your move out of the corner? straight in, or?

And of course, the street? Firm believer that engagement starts well before crossing hands.

Also, you need more than one. It has to be the right one for the right opponent. And no luxury to think about it...
2 bits..

[R]

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1145072]What's "crazy monkey"? Could you explain it?

Is it "虎抱头(Hu Bao Tou) - tiger holding the head (double combing hair)"?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1Qx1T6LLN4&feature=related

This type of movement is seen in some of the CLF sets we do .. seems that the gentleman who has codified the movements and organised them into a format has called them Crazy Monkey... seems to be quite effective on the vids : ')

R

[Drake]

I like when people try to be strategic and all martial-artsy... then I just plow into them... hehehehe.

That's why I like CLF... it is SO helpful with that style of aggression... yeah...put up your hands...I'll just sow choy through that and everything else you're protecting... with a pek choy right behind it juuuuuust in case...

[hskwarrior]

you can always do double sow choys.....one after the other in case they duck. the second sow choy would be waiting for them :D

[YouKnowWho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1Qx1T6LLN4&feature=related

This type of movement is seen in some of the CLF sets we do .. seems that the gentleman who has codified the movements and organised them into a format has called them Crazy Monkey... seems to be quite effective on the vids : ')

R

Thanks for your explanation. That's exactly the TCMA "虎抱头(Hu Bao Tou) - tiger holding the head (double combing hair)". It's very easy to change it into double separate hands and move in.

[Lee Chiang Po]

One does not do a forced entry. You never attack a fortified position. The forces are prepared against you. You may be successful, or you might catch an unlucky shot in the face and from there go down and get stomped on.
Entry is done with deception. You force your opponent to attack you, under your own conditions. This way you can use that attack to your own advantage. Make him attack you, over and over maybe, until he gives you this opening you need to rush in and disable him. Trap his arms or dislodge his balance, spin him around and take his back or side. Anything that puts you outside his range of attack for just long enough to land a few good licks. If you hit him hard and in the right places he will not rebound in a flurry of punches. This one counter attack might be all you need to end the problem.
Another option, which can be applied at the same time, would be to make him defend against a fake attack. The problem with this stratagy is that after a couple of these they get smart. You use it with discretion and make it count. When he defends, you follow him in and take control if you can.
Nothing works 100% of time. You are going to get surprised now and then. You just do what feels right at the time. Making un nerving sounds and screams can be effective too. It can make one over respond to your fake attacks just long enough that you can get inside and do your stuff. Bruce Lee did exactly that.

[YouKnowWho]

To force a striker to play your grappling game is always a smart thing to do.

[Drake]

One does not do a forced entry. You never attack a fortified position. The forces are prepared against you. You may be successful, or you might catch an unlucky shot in the face and from there go down and get stomped on.
Entry is done with deception. You force your opponent to attack you, under your own conditions. This way you can use that attack to your own advantage. Make him attack you, over and over maybe, until he gives you this opening you need to rush in and disable him. Trap his arms or dislodge his balance, spin him around and take his back or side. Anything that puts you outside his range of attack for just long enough to land a few good licks. If you hit him hard and in the right places he will not rebound in a flurry of punches. This one counter attack might be all you need to end the problem.
Another option, which can be applied at the same time, would be to make him defend against a fake attack. The problem with this stratagy is that after a couple of these they get smart. You use it with discretion and make it count. When he defends, you follow him in and take control if you can.
Nothing works 100% of time. You are going to get surprised now and then. You just do what feels right at the time. Making un nerving sounds and screams can be effective too. It can make one over respond to your fake attacks just long enough that you can get inside and do your stuff. Bruce Lee did exactly that.

I don't care how fortified you may be...the walls are coming down.

[SteveLau]

The tool used will be strikes, as they are used in majority in fight. In entrane, foot strike (kick) will mostly be the first tool used. Multiple lines of attack carried out simultaneously or consecutively are common. I will sometimes use feint too, especially if the opponent is of better or similar skill level like mine.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[Howard]

Thanks for your explanation. That's exactly the TCMA "虎抱头(Hu Bao Tou) - tiger holding the head (double combing hair)". It's very easy to change it into double separate hands and move in.

Yes we also call it Hu Bao Tou/tiger wrap/cover head, but the method shown is interesting as usually we use it to move in rather than the continuous rubbing at a distance. Also the use of the elbows, arms also have purpose, during entry, continuation and follow thru.

In terms of the topic - it depends, just adapt to the situation as there are many entry strategies be it passive, active or created.

[Frost]

Yes we also call it Hu Bao Tou/tiger wrap/cover head, but the method shown is interesting as usually we use it to move in rather than the continuous rubbing at a distance. Also the use of the elbows, arms also have purpose, during entry, continuation and follow thru.

In terms of the topic - it depends, just adapt to the situation as there are many entry strategies be it passive, active or created.

what they are doing there is i think simply working the CM structure and the defence posture, CM is first taught defensively, then the second stage is how to use it to close the distance safely and how to angle off and throw punches from the structure

[Yum Cha]

One does not do a forced entry. You never attack a fortified position. The forces are prepared against you. You may be successful, or you might catch an unlucky shot in the face and from there go down and get stomped on.
Entry is done with deception. You force your opponent to attack you, under your own conditions. This way you can use that attack to your own advantage. Make him attack you, over and over maybe, until he gives you this opening you need to rush in and disable him. Trap his arms or dislodge his balance, spin him around and take his back or side. Anything that puts you outside his range of attack for just long enough to land a few good licks. If you hit him hard and in the right places he will not rebound in a flurry of punches. This one counter attack might be all you need to end the problem.
Another option, which can be applied at the same time, would be to make him defend against a fake attack. The problem with this stratagy is that after a couple of these they get smart. You use it with discretion and make it count. When he defends, you follow him in and take control if you can.
Nothing works 100% of time. You are going to get surprised now and then. You just do what feels right at the time. Making un nerving sounds and screams can be effective too. It can make one over respond to your fake attacks just long enough that you can get inside and do your stuff. Bruce Lee did exactly that.

Sounds about right..

[Yum Cha]

I don't care how fortified you may be...the walls are coming down.

So, you don't believe a lighter force, with better mobility and lighter firepower can't handle a full on frontal assault?

Lee, Robert E, General?
George, Dan, Chief?
Min, Ho Che, Great Father...

<grin>
How ya doing there Drake? How's the beer?

[Hebrew Hammer]

But when I make an entrance, I usually show up about 40 mins late, highly inebriated and unapologetic about it...this is highly effective at close range family events when my mom has been ****ing me off. :D It helps if you come unattended, no possy...so as to achieve your center, I usually draw in my supporters in with oft inappropriate comments and sexually innuendos. Its generally a real crowd pleaser as I've refined this technique over years. Make sure you're sporting a million dollar smile like this :D! Head straight for the bar, fondle as many of the appetizers as possible and if all else fails trip and spill your drink on someone.

If you need additional training I do privates...weddings, parties, and bar mitzvahs..whatever you need.

[Drake]

So, you don't believe a lighter force, with better mobility and lighter firepower can't handle a full on frontal assault?

Lee, Robert E, General?
George, Dan, Chief?
Min, Ho Che, Great Father...

<grin>
How ya doing there Drake? How's the beer?

Dry country, no beer. :(

I don't often compare squad level tactics to hand to hand, because the rules change. That being said, I found that a battalion level attack works NOTHING like anything below that echelon.

However, I will concede that one tactic does remain across the board. Fix the enemy with one element, then once fixed, flank them. It's harder than it looks. Once you get 42+ people in the mix, it's like herding cats.

And Murphy is a motherf*cker when you start moving large amounts of people and equipment... I know of one offensive that turned into a freaking nightmare because every stupid little thing that could go wrong, did. I mean... the scouts' vehicle was struck by lightning. STRUCK.BY.LIGHTNING. WTF? Of course that also was in conjunction with about five other disasters...

[Drake]

Or...just read this...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/7-7j/CH3.htm

[Yum Cha]

Dry country, no beer. :(



Awwww gee, I didn't know....<grin> No Wait...I hear the Aussies have beer rations, you're just moving in the wrong circles, mate....

So, you reckon there is nothing you can learn from squad level tactics that would improve your MA?

I know, theoretical, blah, blah, blah...sorry, flanking manoever should be no1 on most fighters engagement techniques, or?

Can you tell us your unit? I take it you're not doing the H2H training any more...

Stay safe.

[Yum Cha]

Or...just read this...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/7-7j/CH3.htm


Nice, thanks....

[Brule]

When your opponent has a strong defence, you must evade and open up the gate. When his defence is weak, you crash right through.

How comfortable are you when you're in close? You break through the defence and next thing you know he's tied you up, can you deal with that?

[Lee Chiang Po]

I don't care how fortified you may be...the walls are coming down.

I hear you, but those sound like famous last words.

[wolf3001]

It really depends on the opponent I am a bit bigger and not in the best shape. My training partner is smaller fairly strong and very aggressive. I have a hell of a time getting to his blind side and backing away is not a smart move. With him about the only thing I can do is move in and jam him up. He is quick with kicks and has the ability to hit people in the groin easily it's just very hard to get to him without getting kicked in the shins or groin. Usually with other people I have fought or sparred I will go after someone who backs away. If I know someone is wearing out and they push in aggressively I will retreat then come forward again jamming them up and overtake them. It's my belief that Wing Chun should be used aggressively never standing to long in one place simply defending always pushing until you meet resistance and then attacking again from a new angle. Just my view and thats what I try to tell our students. My Sifu always told us if you always defend you will lose.

[Yoshiyahu]

Well the key is defend and attack simultaneously...


This merely theory or the ideology i use when sparring...But of course things are subject to change


I usually strike first. When my opponent reacts to my strikes i counter his reaction. if he backs up or moves to side i rush in striking while bridging anything that disrupts my attack. Upon a bridge i lop, jut or flank him by turning his centerline off of mines. while doing so i attack him still. When i have a gap. I attack high and low at the same time. Usually kicking his shin or knee as i come in punching or bil sau to gain a connection. I attempt to continously pull him and jerk him off balance as i strike. changing hands that push, pull, and jerk him for ones that puncn him. I also attempt to continously throw kicks in where i can to keep him distracted.

The goal in fighting is to constantly pepper his face with hard knocks and steady blows while controlling him. in sparring it is to keep him off balance.

but by all means if you find that shjt i said above not working dont be so stupid to not change your stratgey...I just believe its key to constantly put pressure on the opponent. Usually in a street fight the one who is more aggressive wins. Although sometimes the one who is more accurate and percise wins too...

So practice rushing in, attacking, jamming your opponent while also being accurate according to timing and defending any counters he throws...