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Shaolin Master
10-12-2000, 04:03 AM
For FUBOKEN
Fujian White Crane
[Any further questions please ask]

Sorry I shall use Mandarin as it is easier for me (art least I didn’t use Hokkienese )

Fujian 1644-1662 – Yong Chun Bai He Quan (Wing Chun White Crane Fist)
Story states it being from the Bai Lien Si
Many people studied the art in the fujian area consisting of an accountable well versed 21 Masters.
Also practitioners became known as the ‘Chien Wu Hu’ – Primary 5 Tigers
1683 was carried on to Taiwan by practitioners who became known as ‘Hou Wu Hu’ - Later 5 Tigers

Initially known to contain the following fundamental Sets of techniques:
Dan Jr Dan Ma Fa
Shuang Jr Dan Ma Fa
Shuang Jr Shuang Ma Fa
Dan Jr Shuang Ma Fa
Gan Zi Da Fa
In Addition of Staff, Broadsword & Trident weapon Methods

The popularity of the style at the time made it influence and spread out. It had some influence almost all southern systems as it was spread out everywhere.

In Fact it was a major influence on the most popular and famous Fujian art of Wu Zhu Quan (5 Ancestors Fist). 5 Ancestors Fist was composed on the basis of the following systems at the time :
1. Bai He Quan
2. Da Mo Quan
3. Tai Zu Quan
4. Xing Jr Quan (Hou Quan)
5. Lohan Quan
Wu Zhu Quan in itself is a very large system. I may outline it later some time.

The white crane system itself was further complicated by being distinguished into 5 separate systems all of which had developed different routines/forms. However the basic strategies usually remained similar :

Zong He (Jumping/Free Crane)
Fei He (Flying Crane)
Ming He (Chirping/Shouting Crane)
Bai He (Ancestral Crane)
Fan He (Feeding Crane)

In Taiwan the Ancestral Crane was most popular.
Ancestral Crane consists of the following routines/forms :

Qi Xing , Shan He, Wu Mei Hua, Wu Bu, Gong He.
Xiao Yao, Da Yao,Yao Gu, Bai Mei, Ti Gua.
Zong He, Zhan Ji, Zhan He, Chuan Zhen, Fo Shou, Hu Die Zhang, Shi Ba Lohan Shou


Japanese Okinawan Goju Ryu Karate also traces much of its roots in the Bai He Quan in Fact one of their forms (Though incorrectly performed and practised) contains almost exact movements as one of the routines.

In 1929 a research organisation was established to Find the essence of the original Yong Chun Bai He Quan, They discovered that the art was popular in Singapore, Malaysia & Taiwan. Some of the routines considered here include the following.

Chi Bu San Zhan
Shi San Tai Bao
Shi San Bu Yao
Mei Nu Shu Zhuang
Ba Fen Cun Fa
Gan Zi Da Fa
Bai He Zhan Ji
Tang Lang Zhao Er
Meng Hu Na Mao
Bai He Xian Zhao
Li Shi Tuo Xie
Shuang Long Chu Lin
Shuang Yan Zhuan etc


Common features include things like Gang Jing (Hard Jing) which is common to many southern Martial arts. Liu He Combination of Internal/External, Shorter Stances, close fighting tactics, Sticky Hands, quick and triangular stepping, many hand formations (ie, crane claw, tiger claw, eagle claw, fist, vertical fist, phoenix eye fist, dragon eye fist, snake tongue, etc……
The routines/forms are very short in the beginning stages but they become longer as they progress.
Routines commence with the Hung Mun gesture (like hung gar) except that instead of coming from the right side it approaches from the left side. In the Fujian original formation it is commonly found to follow fujian method of the outside of the fist touching the palm centre rather than the inverse/inside part (which is the way Hung gar does it).

Another feature is the use of Bu Ding Bu Ba Ma stance which is central the fighting position in the system. In terms of power and strikes the palms are used very often in conjunction with the crane wing etc… fists in typical southern style.

Stances
Ping Ma
Sz Ping Ma
Ding Zi Bu
Bu Ding Bu Ba Ma
Ji Xiu Bu
Gui Bu

Basics
Dan Jr Yin Yang Jie
Sheung Jr Yin Yang Jie

Fubokuen
10-13-2000, 11:26 PM
Thankyou for your trouble. The Wing Chun White Crane name is interesting. I was mainly asking if you had any experiencial comparison to offer in regard to White Crane and White Tiger from the Fujian temple. The paragraph beginning with "common features" could describe the White Tiger that I know and maybe some "hakka" styles as well.

Shaolin Master
10-16-2000, 06:02 AM
Hello

In Fujian Style the white tiger and White Crane Styles differ significantly.
To begin with the stance is higher in White Crane.
The Breathing in White crane is very very different and wierd. Short quick exhalations with a heh empty air sound (part of special qi gong)!]
The Stance in Fujian Bai Hu is higher than hung gar (Hei Hu) etc, but lower than Crane. It uses a typical fujian stance where there is a front stance with the rear leg slightly bent, 45 degrees feet angles, parallel, line between foot of front and heel of rear...etc.
Power is completely different regarding the sink and the float logic that prevails in the Hakka related arts ...
more later busy now

any direct questions please ask and I will do my best to answer. If prefer in private for in depth discussions please use email

Regards
Shi Chan Long

Shaolin Master
10-16-2000, 10:27 AM
A little more...

The Styles of Hakka (Chu Gar, Chou Gar, JookLum Sth PMantis) and Bak Mei, Long Ying as well as Yau Kung Mun share similar Features due to one of the following 'probable' reasons.(This is pretty dangerous so please note the use of probable without any claim before critiscm).
Firstly The founder of Chu Gar was learning at shaolin temple (being royalty from superseded dynasty) at the same time as Bak Mei and the other elders. Basically Bak mei was an elder at the time and probably was more of an authority at that time. As it is known from Fujian records the most popular styles at the time were Duan Quan, Lohan Quan, Mei Hua Quan and the like. In those days Forms did not number as many as today and in fact it was the principle techniques and tactics that made up the system as well as special skills relevant to the system (ie iron body, palm or fist, light skills, cavity striking, and the like). [It is for this reason that Shaolin-Do's claims are questionable especially funny things like Chen's Tai Qi or worst still a combined form(modern PRC Creation), that is truley silly and 900 forms no way, but let's not go there, not to mention there are 12 forms of Hua Quan but Cai LongYun only wrote books on the first 4 of which shaolin DO proclaims to teach and many other yeah right!].
From these events Chu Fook To (Chu Gar Ming Emperor Family) after the Ching's soldier's raid of shaolin and all associated people, changed his name fled and kept the Chu Gar style within the Family (Hakka = Ke-ren, Ming flee to sth) for generations. Latter Yi Sui created(renamed) the style to Chou Gar and Student of Lau Sui created Kwang Sai Jook Lum..
The Hakka style's characterised by
-Sink, Float, Spit & Swallow
-Rounding of Back
-Leg Jing (Impulse stepping)
-No T no V Step [Bu Ding Bu Ba]
-Centre line punching, Open hands standbye
-2 man sticky hands (Feeling Hands)
-Bridges training
-Phoenix Fist
Fighting is using tactics such as close gap, cross bridge, feel balance of power and retaliate accordingly, explosive power, small area striking aggressive and infinite til battle is won.

Bak mei & Fung Dao De as all know fled to Ermei (Ngor mei..whatever), Both exchanged ideals yet Taoist principle were invoked, Bak Mei remained in the Ermei areas, Fung Dao De wandered and resided in places such as Wudang are and the like absorbing the Way (Dao). Bak Mei introduced principles such as the Bakua area striking and furthered his shaolin art. Fung Dao De emphasised internal aspects. Again without disrespect only a small amount of forms(1-4)if any would have been trained or practised.

to be continued

Regards

Shi Chan Long

Fubokuen
10-16-2000, 07:13 PM
Hi thankyou very much for your perspective. Are you saying that your Fujian Bai mei and Bai Hu do not utilize the sink float swallow spit posture?

Are there any records of a White Lotus fist in the Fujian temple?
We may at some point want off this forum. You can start emailing as soon as you like...
fubokuen@hotmail.com

Shaolin Master
11-02-2000, 06:43 AM
Hello,

Just as a query are there any Yang Jwing Ming students that would like to outline there own experiences of Taiwanese White Crane (Mine are from China and singapore).

Please share concepts and regumin as you like.

Regards

Shi Chan Long

Ky-Fi
11-12-2000, 07:57 PM
Hey ShaolinMaster,
I've studied mostly Taiji from Dr. Yang, but I did take one 3-day seminar on his White Crane. I believe the seminar I took covered a lot of the material that a beginner would learn in the first few months of regular classes. He really focused a lot on spine and chest movement--lots of slow exercises for bow-ing and arcing the chest, loosening up the vertebrae and waist--all coordinated with reverse breathing. Lots of focus on sinking the qi, and really mainting your root. We sort of did some Sumo type wrestling with a partner to get a sense of rooting. Dr. Yang tended to divide the White Crane qigong into hard and soft. The soft stuff was VERY similar in theory and practice to Taiji--mind leading the qi through very relaxed muscles in coordination with slow physical movement. The hard qigong stuff started out the same, but then the muscles (forearm, for instance) would be slowly tensed to trap the qi there, held tensed for a few seconds, and then released--these being excercises designed to use the qi to build up muscular strength.
He also emphasized the nature of White Crane as a soft-hard style--a lot of the same whipping power through relaxed muscles as Taiji does, but with a bit more focus on muscular tension at the impact of the techniques.
We also did some 2-person forearm conditioning drills (maybe it was called 3-star blocking?)--which left my arms slightly black and blue for a few days /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.
I've worked a number of those exercises into my current training, but I decided to focus on Taiji, so that's been pretty much the extent of my White Crane instruction

"Without tradition, art is a flock of sheep without a shepherd; without innovation it is a corpse." --Sir Winston Churchil

Shaolin Master
11-20-2000, 11:16 AM
Thank you for your post it has been pleasant. Although a seminar is not exactly it ..I was wondering about actual practitioners.

Regards
Shi Chan Long

Ky-Fi
11-20-2000, 05:15 PM
Hey, no problem. If you have specific or higher level questions, I'm sure somebody at the school would be happy to talk to you--you can get contact info at:

http://www.ymaa.com

5thBrother
12-05-2007, 06:03 AM
Hi.

Does anyone have a copy of this southern white crane book - "Fujian Nanquan Congshu Hequan" (chinese) handy?

I have a couple of quick questions someone with a copy maybe be able to answer for me.

thanks!

SouthernTiger
12-05-2007, 12:40 PM
Hi 5th brother,

I have a copy of that book. I may be able to help but my chinese is not so good. What are your questions?

-Blake

Firehawk4
08-12-2008, 03:18 PM
Loran Benards Fujian White Crane book A rare art revealed is a good book much better than his first one . Does anybody know about this version of White Crane called Flying Crane ?

Satori Science
08-13-2008, 09:11 AM
What do you want to know? your curious about the second version?
I'v got it, its an excellent book.

I was actually hanging out with Sifu Lorne three weeks ago in MD, his student won 1st place in his weight division in Lei Tai at the Koushu tourny

Phil Redmond
11-25-2011, 10:16 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWh-uhw4C9s

Minghequan
11-25-2011, 11:20 PM
Thanks for this Phil,

Interesting but sad to see that the internal has been overlooked perhaps in favour for a dare I say it more "marketable" expression!

Form is to train for energy development (Not for sparring), and for real life-protection the drills and/or pushing hands are meant for sensitivity training, they are not interchangeable! SPEED is never a subject for training, precision, accuracy, refinement, fluidity these are the qualities one aims for.

It often seems to me that the movements are too large to be a Crane. Large movements are meant for beginners, People like yourself will definitely find that during those oh so so many years of training, the form, through those years will slowly but surely, by itself, evolve, becoming smaller, higher in stance, smoother with constant connection to the ground with the entire body. One who has arrived at this state, could NOT have perform the form with such large circles.

The stepping is a manifestation of how one grounds oneself for energy cultivation via ground-reaction-energy. Secondly its stepping (what I call "Bicycle Stepping" ... You can't put pressure on both pedals at the same time and remain upright for very long!) is a form of constant motion and readiness to move should the circumstances warrant it. Lastly the steps are simply hidden leg manoeuvres: Blocks/Receiving motions, Circular Sweeps and destabilising motions, and lastly Hidden Kicks

The SanZhan sequences shown most probably shows that they are NOT familiar with the angles, power, and inches (centimeters, nowadays).

Most students head straight to the application and left out the cultivation, so, by the time they are in their 60's, and above, they do not have any internal power to apply it since what they utilize on when they were young were nothing more than muscles and quick turns and twitches just to gain the upper hand.

Most external arts walk this sort of path, BUT White Crane and Tai Chi DO NOT! Make no mistake about this.

The Old Master(s) used to say that if one can truly MASTER the
SanZhan, (together with the drills and indoor knowledge) it is more than enough to use for a lifetime! There is no need to even practice a separate QiGong set to supplement the White Crane, the SanZhan by itself, in itself, is whole and complete.

I have seen other examples on Youtube etc but turned away from it pretty **** quickly as it lacked any real connection to the internal. Lets keep in mind that the FOUNDER of White Crane in ALL of it's incarnations was Fang Qiniang .......... A WOMAN!

Do you, even for a fleeting moment think that she wanted her art to be EXTERNAL as it has sadly became!

The movements should be body-connected emanating from the ground up via the Dan Tien. The movements are fluid and very, very small and subtle.

It is my belief that White Crane is internal. Health, Qigong, Fighting are all inter-related. You cannot have one without the other. Keep in mind that Taoism has and remains a very big influence on not only Chinese Martial Arts but the very core of their culture. To separate from this is simply impossible by my way of thought. Their exhibition of White Crane is still very external, sometimes very static and lacking in the internal qualities I believe White Crane should embody.


GGM Xie Zhong Xiang was totally aware that the Crane is too hard based on his Taoist outlook. So he set upon himself to internalised it ~ this took many many years. And then it was TRANSMITTED to GM Huang who also became a Taoist. He took another 40 years to soften and internalise it even further, starting with the Deep Mind! This is one subject that most master are NOT apt enough to talk about much less teach.

It has been proven by such well respected Chinese Martial Arts Historians such as Stanely Henning and Brian L. Kennedy to name but two that the Chinese culture was heavily influenced by Taoist thought! So why have most Chinese masters turned their back on this? Maybe it's because Taoism in the Martial Arts is not marketable and therefore they cannot make money off of it!

It is clearly understood that when the Okinawan's were in touch with China, the old teachers did NOT transmit EVERYTHING to them.

Hendrik
11-27-2011, 02:57 PM
What is internal? What is a daoist?
What daoist got to do with it?

Minghequan
11-27-2011, 04:16 PM
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/2608/whitecranetaoism.jpg

Minghequan
11-27-2011, 04:17 PM
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/7875/whitecranetranslate.jpg

Hendrik
11-27-2011, 04:35 PM
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/2608/whitecranetaoism.jpg

Those who make this chart does not understand the Chinese internal nei gong cultivation foundation. Thus, this chart is not useful for real deal.

Hendrik
11-27-2011, 04:37 PM
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/7875/whitecranetranslate.jpg

Another theory chart which looks great for layman however not much usefull. Not to mention the chart missed out the most key fundamental core of martial art.

TenTigers
11-27-2011, 04:39 PM
dude, now YOU'RE posting in hanzi without translations?
You're kidding, right?

Minghequan
11-27-2011, 06:02 PM
TenTigers:

dude, now YOU'RE posting in hanzi without translations?
You're kidding, right?

Well I just thought that one such as Hendrik would avail you all of his translation ....... How about it Hendrik? Any chance of a translation of what each section of hanzi says?

Minghequan
11-27-2011, 06:05 PM
Hendrik:

Those who make this chart does not understand the Chinese internal nei gong cultivation foundation. Thus, this chart is not useful for real deal.

Hmmm so your saying that you are far more knowledgeable than those who wrote the book this came from? Interesting. Please explain why you feel your knowledge base is of a higher level than that of the author?


Hendrik:

Another theory chart which looks great for layman however not much usefull ( Sic: Incorrect spelling! ). Not to mention the chart missed out the most key fundamental core of martial art.

Cool then please enlighten us all and tell us what that "most key fundamental core" is that is missing? I am sure we would all like to know exactly what it is ... so please, do share! Come on now, don't be shy!

Minghequan
11-27-2011, 06:13 PM
Interesting take on Taoist's Influence on the Chinese martial Arts:

http://vimeo.com/31747090

Hendrik
11-27-2011, 06:19 PM
Well I just thought that one such as Hendrik would avail you all of his translation ....... How about it Hendrik? Any chance of a translation of what each section of hanzi says?

Thanks no thanks. You deal with your own post.

Hendrik
11-27-2011, 06:22 PM
Hmmm so your saying that you are far more knowledgeable than those who wrote the book this came from? Interesting. Please explain why you feel your knowledge base is of a higher level than that of the author?



Cool then please enlighten us all and tell us what that "most key fundamental core" is that is missing? I am sure we would all like to know exactly what it is ... so please, do share! Come on now, don't be shy!

Go home, do your homework. See if it work for yourself and then post it. Otherwise, posting something which is not verified is problem isn't it?

You want to be an expert? Be a real one. What good to know not the subject ?

Minghequan
11-27-2011, 07:33 PM
Hendrik:

Thanks no thanks. You deal with your own post.

As per your usual modus operandi you post on here saying a little about nothing.

You refuse to explain your views (Most likely because you can't) or to state your sources or reasons for the ambiguous statements you make.

You like to "appear" all "knowledgeable", "mysteriously wise" and "cryptic" but when called upon to share your "knowledge" you clam up tighter then a Nun's nether regions!

Why is that?

I put it to you Hendrik that perhaps you don't know what you "think" you "know!"

Otherwise, why would you not share openly with others? After all last time I looked this was a DISCUSSION FORUM for "Discussing (i.e. communicating, sharing, offering ideas & personal views) the martial arts!


Hendrik:

Go home, do your homework. See if it work for yourself and then post it. Otherwise, posting something which is not verified is problem isn't it?

You want to be an expert? Be a real one. What good to know not the subject ?

You see? You prove my point straight away in the very few lines of your post!

How terribly condescending (look it up) of you to tell another, someone you have never met or trained with to "go home" or "do homework". How great it must be to be you with all your self-imposed "Expert Status" and Self-Awarded Superiority!"

Your attitude is not very open nor is it conducive to discussion and sharing. Mate, empty your cup because right now it's overflowing all over your keyboard!

Ten Tigers,

Hi mate. My apologies for allowing this subject to be derailed by the "showboating" of another. Moving on,

I will publish a translation of both charts very soon for you and I to discuss.

The source of these charts is from "White Crane Boxing and Theory of Health"
by Wang Yu Ning Publisher: Yi Wen (ancient writings no longer extant) 2006/12/06.

The book itself is an examination on the nuts and bolts of White Crane from the mechanical and health standpoints. It discusses, in detail, the structure of the system from both the physiological standpoint and with correspondences to the Chinese medical theory.

It also goes on to detail descriptions of the various styles and their advantages, five elements theory White Crane style, special breathing arts, White Crane spirit and suggestions for further research.

The first chart shown 圖一:中國道家(教)形,氣,神 三位一體的人體觀-- "Chart One: The Concept in the Chinese School of Daoism (Religion) of the Three-in-One Human Body of 'Form, Qi, and Spirit'" is basically a flow chart of the synthesis of traditional Chinese philosophical ideas, non-classical religious Daoism, and modern scientific concepts.

The second chart deals with 白鶴牶的身體拍哲理 (The body philosophy of the White Crane Fist) listing the 白鶴牶的運動哲學: The philosophy of the White Crane Fist movements.

Ten Tigers, What is your interest in White Crane Gongfu if I may ask?

TenTigers
11-27-2011, 07:39 PM
Ten Tigers, What is your interest in White Crane Gongfu if I may ask?
Our Crane in Hung Kuen comes from two sources-Fukien Bak Hok P'ai, and Hop Ga-Tibetan White Crane.
Also, since I also train in SPM, a Hakka Kuen system, (as well as learning some Bak Mei in my youth as well as Wing Chun) there is a strong connection to Fukien Bak Hok P'ai. By studying Bak Hok, I can delve deeper into the system and gain greater understanding of the crane in my system than I would normally get otherwise.

Minghequan
11-27-2011, 08:06 PM
Ten Tigers:

Our Crane in Hung Kuen comes from two sources-Fukien Bak Hok P'ai, and Hop Ga-Tibetan White Crane.
Also, since I also train in SPM, a Hakka Kuen system, (as well as learning some Bak Mei in my youth as well as Wing Chun) there is a strong connection to Fukien Bak Hok P'ai. By studying Bak Hok, I can delve deeper into the system and gain greater understanding of the crane in my system than I would normally get otherwise.

Okay, thanks for sharing. It's interesting to note the mix of Fukien Crane and Tibetan Crane in your Hung Kuen .... one a medium to short range, the other long range.

I have a very good friend who does Hung Kuen and we communicate openly about the connections between Hung Kuen and Crane of Fuzhou, YongChun etc.

Mate I am happy to share with you what I can regarding White Crane if it will be of some small help to you in your quest for understanding. Please note that I'm no "expert" ("X" being an unknown factor & "spurt" being a drip under pressure!), I'm just a seeker of the way.

Here's a link to Master Lee Kong, a guide and friend:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwO0WQ8yeK4&feature=feedu

I'd be interested in your thoughts?

Thanks for the discussion!

TenTigers
11-27-2011, 09:06 PM
at 0:52 he does what we call mao yi sai meen (cat washes its face)into double side palm/claw strikes both sides. Nearly identical sequence in our Tiger/Crane set.

Minghequan
11-27-2011, 09:11 PM
Interesting! Thank you for sharing. I feel that at some point, all arts become "one" if not in style, in essence.

I will post more soon!

Hendrik
11-27-2011, 10:34 PM
The first chart shown 圖一:中國道家(教)形,氣,神 三位一體的人體觀-- "Chart One: The Concept in the Chinese School of Daoism (Religion) of the Three-in-One Human Body of 'Form, Qi, and Spirit'" is basically a flow chart of the synthesis of traditional Chinese philosophical ideas, non-classical religious Daoism, and modern scientific concepts.

this is misleading.

the author doesnt have indepth understanding and certainly not practice the subject.

what to discuss? when the basic keys are distorted.

Hendrik
11-27-2011, 10:38 PM
The second chart deals with 白鶴牶的身體拍哲理 (The body philosophy of the White Crane Fist) listing the 白鶴牶的運動哲學: The philosophy of the White Crane Fist movements.


This one missing the most basic white crane element. this tell the person who wrote the book is a talker who is not practicing White Crane seriously. at least, he is not practicing a martial art White Crane which is according to the founder and cannot be applied in today's MMA. not to mention 1670's Qing battle field.

Hendrik
11-27-2011, 10:39 PM
Ron,

If your research are at these level, then it is just new age superficial and useless. you need to find some real guys with real deal for your organization to get the basic first.

Minghequan
11-27-2011, 10:47 PM
Hendrik,

You place yourself "Above" an actual exponent of White Crane Gongfu and exclaim that this person knows nothing of the art he has dedicated his life too? Good God man, your ego and self-superiority complex is clearly out of control!

!/. Please inform us all exactly how many actual White Crane Training Manuals you have actually written and had published?

2/. Who exactly did you train with that actually taught you White Crane?

3/. How many years did you physically practice and learn White Crane Gongfu?

I ask this simply because it will serve to educate us all exactly where it is you are coming from with your statements as made here.

Hendrik, please answer these very simple and very easy questions. They are not hard to answer nor are they a "putdown" to you. Answering each of the very simple yet straight forward questions will enable all of us here to know exactly where it is you are basing your statements in and will serve to help us understand your training, knowledge and training in White Crane Gongfu.

I, along with the others here await your reply.

Hendrik
11-27-2011, 10:57 PM
Hendrik,

You place yourself "Above" an actual exponent of White Crane Gongfu and exclaim that this person knows nothing of the art he has dedicated his life too? Good God man, your ego and self-superiority complex is clearly out of control!

!/. Please inform us all exactly how many actual White Crane Training Manuals you have actually written and had published?

2/. Who exactly did you train with that actually taught you White Crane?

3/. How many years did you physically practice and learn White Crane Gongfu?

I ask this simply because it will serve to educate us all exactly where it is you are coming from with your statements as made here.

Hendrik, please answer these very simple and very easy questions. They are not hard to answer nor are they a "putdown" to you. Answering each of the very simple yet straight forward questions will enable all of us here to know exactly where it is you are basing your statements in and will serve to help us understand your training, knowledge and training in White Crane Gongfu.

I, along with the others here await your reply.




Can you differentiate between technical and side tracking the subject for personal attack?


Who cares what is the name dropping. It doesnt matter who the heck wrote the book. if he doesnt know he doesnt. evidentally, this person does not have the in depth understanding to write what he is writting. so, either you take that or you could keep raising all kind of wasted personal attack and looks ridiculus in the eyes of those who really knows what is going on.


again, I repeat this author is not a daoist and have never train any indepth Daoist stuffs. This person also doesnt have advance level in White Crane Eng Chun art. any one who has basic training in Daoist and White CRane knows what components are distorted and missing.

Get it to your advisor GM Lee Kong and let him tell you what is missing.

Minghequan
11-27-2011, 11:02 PM
Ron,

If your research are at these level, then it is just new age superficial and useless. you need to find some real guys with real deal for your organization to get the basic first.

Good grief!!! :eek: I don't believe it!:(

You actually have the audacity to write that the likes of my friend and Guide Master Lee Kong (WCRI Technical Advisor/Master) of the Zhangzhou Jie Yuan Tan Jian Pai White Crane Boxing & Master Su YingHan of theYongChun YiYun Wushu Research Society, China are not as you put it "REAL GUYS!" or the "REAL DEAL!"???

Man you are just downright rude and obnoxious!

Have you met Shifu Chen Fai, Master Lee Kong, Master Su YingHan? Have YOU ever trained with these guys?

Who have you actually trained with in White Crane? Who are the "REAL GUYS", the "REAL DEAL:" you have trained with in White Crane Gongfu to arrive at your opinion as expressed here???


you need to find some real guys with real deal for your organization to get the basic first.

Don't evade the question Hendrik! Lets hear exactly WHO HAVE YOU HAVE TRAINED WITH IN WHITE CRANE GONGFU???

Do you know me? Have we ever met? Have you ever trained with me or witnessed my training and White Crane Gongfu? Do you know me to know who I have trained with? Who I have turned to for my research and continual learning?

Of course you don't! But then a man who thinks he has arrived and knows all there is is not likely to admit that he hasn't really "arrived" and doesn't "know all" now is he Hendrik?

Do you know anything of the way I teach, what I teach?

Okay Hendrik, Please tell me why you would be one of the people I should turn to for knowledge of White Crane Gongfu?

Hendrik
11-27-2011, 11:05 PM
Good grief!!! :eek: I don't believe it!:(

You actually have the audacity to write that the likes of my friend and Guide Master Lee Kong (WCRI Technical Advisor/Master) of the Zhangzhou Jie Yuan Tan Jian Pai White Crane Boxing & Master Su YingHan of theYongChun YiYun Wushu Research Society, China are not as you put it "REAL GUYS!" or the "REAL DEAL!"???

Man you are just downright rude and obnoxious!

Have you met Shifu Chen Fai, Master Lee Kong, Master Su YingHan? Have YOU ever trained with these guys?

Who have you actually trained with in White Crane? Who are the "REAL GUYS", the "REAL DEAL:" you have trained with in White Crane Gongfu to arrive at your opinion as expressed here???




Don't evade the question Hendrik! Lets hear exactly WHO HAVE YOU HAVE TRAINED WITH IN WHITE CRANE GONGFU???

Do you know me? Have we ever met? Have you ever trained with me or witnessed my training and White Crane Gongfu? Do you know me to know who I have trained with? Who I have turned to for my research and continual learning?

Of course you don't! But then a man who thinks he has arrived and knows all there is is not likely to admit that he hasn't really "arrived" and doesn't "know all" now is he Hendrik?

Do you know anything of the way I teach, what I teach?

Okay Hendrik, Please tell me why you would be one of the people I should turn to for knowledge of White Crane Gongfu?



You are name dropping here. Do you really get the advise from Su Ying Han or Lee Kong? I doubt. I know these two master's quality, so I doubt you take their advise.


the following of your picture and translation is distorted and screw up--- not accord to white crane.

if Su or Lee has involved it would not be like this. If you dont even know what is screw up here, go ask Su or Lee. Said it Hendrik said this picture and the englished translation is screw up. I bet you they will agree with me.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1127556&postcount=11

Minghequan
11-27-2011, 11:14 PM
Can you differentiate between technical and side tracking the subject for personal attack?


Who cares what is the name dropping. It doesnt matter who the heck wrote the book. if he doesnt know he doesnt. evidentally, this person does not have the in depth understanding to write what he is writting. so, either you take that or you could keep raising all kind of wasted personal attack and looks ridiculus in the eyes of those who really knows what is going on.


again, I repeat this author is not a daoist and have never train any indepth Daoist stuffs. This person also doesnt have advance level in White Crane Eng Chun art. any one who has basic training in Daoist and White CRane knows what components are distorted and missing.

Get it to your advisor GM Lee Kong and let him tell you what is missing.


Hendrik, apart from a absolutely terrible command and understanding of the English language and spelling, you also show your own ignorance by not answering what are simple and easy questions.

Why do you evade answering these questions Hendrik? What do you have to hide? If you have nothing to hide and if you are so sure that yours is the "right" way then why not answer the questions? What do you have to lose?

Your comfortable being you aren't you? Your confident within your own ability and knowledge aren't you? If so then why can't you answer what are simple, easy and very basic questions?

You see Hendrik, I've looked over many of your pasts posts on this forum and every time someone asks you a direct question ... you don't answer, you evade it and counter with some sort of claim that the person asking the questions is "attacking" you or not "worthy" of your so-called "Time", "answer" or "knowledge!"

In fact I will even go as far to say that you are a habitual evader when it comes to answering direct questions put to you!

If your not prepared to answer these questions fully and honestly. if your simply going to play childish games (all the while revealing a great deal about yourself, your character and lack of real knowledge) then I and I'm sure many of the others here will simply ignore you for the "Bull@#t Artist" you are presenting yourself to be!

亨德里克,你胡说!

Hendrik
11-27-2011, 11:20 PM
Hendrik, apart from a absolutely terrible command and understanding of the English language and spelling, you also show your own ignorance by not answering what are simple and easy questions.

Why do you evade answering these questions Hendrik? What do you have to hide? If you have nothing to hide and if you are so sure that yours is the "right" way then why not answer the questions? What do you have to lose?

Your comfortable being you aren't you? Your confident within your own ability and knowledge aren't you? If so then why can't you answer what are simple, easy and very basic questions?

You see Hendrik, I've looked over many of your pasts posts on this forum and every time someone asks you a direct question ... you don't answer, you evade it and counter with some sort of claim that the person asking the questions is "attacking" you or not "worthy" of your so-called "Time", "answer" or "knowledge!"

In fact I will even go as far to say that you are a habitual evader when it comes to answering direct questions put to you!

If your not prepared to answer these questions fully and honestly. if your simply going to play childish games (all the while revealing a great deal about yourself, your character and lack of real knowledge) then I and I'm sure many of the others here will simply ignore you for the "Bull@#t Artist" you are presenting yourself to be!

亨德里克,你胡说!



I really become enjoying your way of thinking. Well, let it be let it be.

you are not serious wanting to find out what is going on in White Crane. that is what I pick up from here. So, I am out of here.

Minghequan
11-27-2011, 11:55 PM
Hendrik.


You are name dropping here. Do you really get the advise from Su Ying Han or Lee Kong? I doubt. I know these two master's quality, so I doubt you take their advise.

Okay, so let me get this right? Your saying or wrote that I don't know these two masters. You wrote that you doubt I knew these two Master of White Crane (at least that's what your post said before you edited it! ....... Last edited by Hendrik; Today at 05:15 PM. )

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/2393/yiyuncertificate.jpg

And then there's this:

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9291/appointment1.jpg

Do you think Master Su YingHan would have awarded me this if I did not know what I am doing in White Crane Gongfu? Are you questioning Master Su YingHan's judgement and character? Are you saying these Masters are Wrong? Are you saying that these Masters don't know what they are talking about?

Man you are just so wrong and so full of it!

Even more:

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9483/46948545.jpg

And:

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/9002/50224558.jpg

Hmm, I think maybe you have bitten off a little more than you can chew Hendrik "old buddy!"

Do you even know who gave me the information and charts you claim to know so much but demonstrate so little about? No I thought not. Man would you be surprised! :)

Anytime you want to offer an apology Hendrik, I'll be here waiting ;)

You see Hendrik, your failure to answer any of the very simple and easy questions I put forward to you says volumes about your so-called "knowledge" and understanding of anything to do with Real White Crane.

Again, I put it to you Hendrik:

Who have you actually trained with in White Crane? Who are the "REAL GUYS", the "REAL DEAL:" you have trained with in White Crane Gongfu to arrive at your opinion as expressed here???

WHO HAVE YOU HAVE TRAINED WITH IN WHITE CRANE GONGFU???

Rather than answer, what do you do? You pack up your toys and go home! Hey, that's pretty cool ... wasn't it you who told me to "Go Home":


Hendrik:

Go home, do your homework.

Talk about irony!!!

We Aussies are a pretty straight forward bunch so mate, putting it clearly, your so full of Bull@#t your eyes must have turned brown!

Hendrik,

A little bit of advice, if you didn't deliberately try to come across as a "Know-It-All" then maybe you'd be treated a little different and the discussions would flow so much better. But when you come across as believing that you and only you have all the answers well mate it just makes it look like "you are up yourself!"

No one person has all the answers. That's why the Martial Arts are such a wonderful journey! Focus on the journey Hendrik and forget about the destination. Be prepared to learn from others and to curb your ego and you will find a whole new world of learning will open up for you.

Minghequan
11-28-2011, 12:17 AM
Phil Redmond & Ten Tigers,

My sincere apology for my part in the negativity taking part in this discussion. It was not my intention.

I apologise for Hendrik too. I don't think he is aware of his own actions.

Rather I am here to learn and share ...... if only a little.

I hope you will accept my apology.

Minghequan
11-28-2011, 12:28 AM
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/7109/whitecrane1.jpg

練精化氣 - "perfecting essence, transforming qi"
練精化神 - "perfecting essence, transforming spirit" - as above

形 - form

氣 - qi

神 - spirit

軀體 - body (as in the human body)

生命結構 - life structure

心理結構 - mental structure

物質 - matter / substance

能量 - capability

信息 - information

圖一:中國道家(教)行,氣,神 - image one: Chinese Daoism (religion) "Conduct, Qi, Spirit"

Another translation is:

練精化氣 -- "Train essence into Qi."
練氣化神 -- "Train Qi into spirit."

Third line of boxes:

軀體結構 -- "bodily structure/composition"
生命結構 -- "life/vital/biological/living structure/composition"
心理結構 -- "mental/psychological structure/composition"

物質 -- "material" (though, I like "matter" better)
能量 -- "energy" (in the sense modern science understands)
信息 -- "information" (I think this is the only likely choice among other possibilities)

圖一:中國道家(教)行,氣,神:


圖一:中國道家(教)形,氣,神 三位一體的人體觀-- "Chart One: The Concept in the Chinese School of Daoism (Religion) of the Three-in-One Human Body of 'Form, Qi, and Spirit'"


練精化氣: cultivate Jing to transform into Chi

練氣化神: cultivate Chi to transform into Shen

形 (Form) .............. 氣 (Chi) ......................... 神 (Shen)

軀體結構 (The body structure) ............... 生命結構 (The vital structure) ....... 心理結構(The psychological structure)

物質 (Substance) ........ 能量 (Energy) ............. (信息) Information

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/7875/whitecranetranslate.jpg

白鶴牶乃「鶴」與「武術」經由象形而取意之仿生思維所融合而成的牶法。
The White Crane Fist is a style that was developed by combining the animated imitation of the "Crane" and the "martial arts" concepts.

本文依據中國武術功、法(形)的技擊本質,歸結出外顯可見與內斂不可見之形氣神的身體現象,研究架構如圖三 所示:

This text was based on the skilled sparring on the Chinese martial arts Kung(cultivation) and Fa(form) essential basics. Finalized something that one may see the body phenomena of the Form, Chi, and Shen externally but not internally. The research configuration is shown in Diagram 3.

1. 白鶴牶的運動哲學: The philosophy of the White Crane Fist movements.

象形取意的仿生思想: Ideas are mimic from pictographic forms of action (from animals )for the thoughts of animation.

武術技擊 (martial art sparring)----------->白鶴牶(White Crane Fist)-------->(仙禽-鶴) immortal-Crane
白鶴牶(White Crane Fist)------------->人(Human)

2. 武術功法:Martial art cultivations and methods-------->
四功 (the four cultivations):吞 (inhale),吐 (exhale),浮 (flow),and 沉 (sink) 功練氣(method in breathing)
四法 (the four methods): 飛 (fly),嗚 (yell),宿 (rest),and 食 (eat) 定精神 (To set the inner soul)

3. 陰陽五行 (Yin-Yang, the five elements)-------->
外顯可見的運動形態 (The movement gestures may be seen externally)--->
內斂不可見的生命能量 (The vital energy may not be seen internally)


4. 形氣神三位一體的身體觀(The body view of "Form, Chi, and Shen" three in one as an integral.
形: 運動的形態 (The posture of movements). 
氣: 吐納之術 (The ultimate method of exhalation and inhalation).
神: (意識思維) The thinking of consciousness.

白鶴牶的身體拍哲理 (The body philosophy of the White Crane Fist)

Figure 3: The research configuration Chart.

Hendrik
11-28-2011, 12:35 AM
Ron,

You can show all the letters you like or how you know all the big names. However, if your work has no quality of these masters, that shows you don't Get the advise or listen to the advise from these big name.


Knowing some big name and working with them and have good quality work are totally different things.


As I mention above, take your picture and the explanation of the picture, shows it to any of these big name and tell them Hendricks says this is screw up. See for yourself what will they tell you.

The chart is screwed. Even if president Obama certified it. It is still no good technically. That is the bottom line. To know what is missing is a technical issue. Not a I know big name issue.




Hendrik.



Okay, so let me get this right? Your saying or wrote that I don't know these two masters. You wrote that you doubt I knew these two Master of White Crane (at least that's what your post said before you edited it! ....... Last edited by Hendrik; Today at 05:15 PM. )

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/2393/yiyuncertificate.jpg

And then there's this:

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9291/appointment1.jpg

Do you think Master Su YingHan would have awarded me this if I did not know what I am doing in White Crane Gongfu? Are you questioning Master Su YingHan's judgement and character? Are you saying these Masters are Wrong? Are you saying that these Masters don't know what they are talking about?

Man you are just so wrong and so full of it!

Even more:

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9483/46948545.jpg

And:

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/9002/50224558.jpg

Hmm, I think maybe you have bitten off a little more than you can chew Hendrik "old buddy!"

Do you even know who gave me the information and charts you claim to know so much but demonstrate so little about? No I thought not. Man would you be surprised! :)

Anytime you want to offer an apology Hendrik, I'll be here waiting ;)

You see Hendrik, your failure to answer any of the very simple and easy questions I put forward to you says volumes about your so-called "knowledge" and understanding of anything to do with Real White Crane.

Again, I put it to you Hendrik:

Who have you actually trained with in White Crane? Who are the "REAL GUYS", the "REAL DEAL:" you have trained with in White Crane Gongfu to arrive at your opinion as expressed here???

WHO HAVE YOU HAVE TRAINED WITH IN WHITE CRANE GONGFU???

Rather than answer, what do you do? You pack up your toys and go home! Hey, that's pretty cool ... wasn't it you who told me to "Go Home":



Talk about irony!!!

We Aussies are a pretty straight forward bunch so mate, putting it clearly, your so full of Bull@#t your eyes must have turned brown!

Hendrik,

A little bit of advice, if you didn't deliberately try to come across as a "Know-It-All" then maybe you'd be treated a little different and the discussions would flow so much better. But when you come across as believing that you and only you have all the answers well mate it just makes it look like "you are up yourself!"

No one person has all the answers. That's why the Martial Arts are such a wonderful journey! Focus on the journey Hendrik and forget about the destination. Be prepared to learn from others and to curb your ego and you will find a whole new world of learning will open up for you.

Minghequan
11-28-2011, 01:18 AM
Ron,

You can show all the letters you like or how you know all the big names. However, if your work has no quality of these masters, that shows you don't Get the advise or listen to the advise from these big name.


Knowing some big name and working with them and have good quality work are totally different things.


As I mention above, take your picture and the explanation of the picture, shows it to any of these big name and tell them Hendricks says this is screw up. See for yourself what will they tell you.

The chart is screwed. Even if president Obama certified it. It is still no good technically. That is the bottom line. To know what is missing is a technical issue. Not a I know big name issue.

That's not what you originally wrote before you edited it Hendrik ( Last edited by Hendrik; Today at 05:15 PM ). Why lie Hendrik?

What you actually wrote before you edited was that you doubted I knew the two Masters in question. You wrote that you doubt I knew these two Master of White Crane.

Again, why lie Hendrik?

Mate you can't have it both ways. You can't go about changing things when it suits your whim to do so. Mate your the one who started casting aspersions upon who I knew in White Crane, not me. Then when I answer you, you jump horses in mid gallop and turn it all around and say "Ooooh it's not about big names". Jesus man, make up your mind will you! You've had more changes then a cross dresser at Kings Cross!

Believe it or not Hendrik, I'm trying to help you by getting you to simply open up and let us all know about your experiences in the actual subject of this thread which is: "Fukien/Fujian White Crane"

This thread is not about if the chart you allude to posted elsewhere is right or wrong. That is NOT the subject of this particular thread and you know it so please stop grasping at straws to try and save yourself from answering the actual questions put forward to you.

All you are doing is a typical ploy used by countless Politicians the world over ... and that is to attempt to create a diversion (not very well I might add) so you can get out of answering the real questions!!! It's as easy to see as the nose upon your own face. Now don't lie and don't evade the subject ... you know that what I am saying here is the truth even if you cannot bring yourself to admit it to yourself.

I have sent my thoughts to both Masters Lee Kong and Su YingHan. Sometimes we agree and sometimes we don't. I last communicated and therefore learned from Master Lee Kong on the 18th November 2011. He and I are often in touch via email and other mediums. That is the beauty of learning and being human. It doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong Hendrik. What matters is are you being honest? Are you being honest with myself and the others who post on this forum and more importantly, are you being honest with your self Hendrik? I think you already know the answer don't you?

Phil Redmond started the discussion regarding "Fukien/Fujian White Crane". So far only Ten Tigers and I have actually discussed White Crane Gongfu. You instead have discussed yourself and then directed the discussion at me and who I "knew" or not. Go figure?

I published two charts to help illustrate some (NOT ALL!) aspects of White Crane Gongfu. At no time did I, Phil or Ten Tigers write here that we were the "be-all and end-all" when it come to White Crane or what was listed on the charts posted. No, you did that.

So once again Hendrik, I ask you without malice but out of a genuine desire to know:

Who have you actually trained with in White Crane? Who are the "REAL GUYS", the "REAL DEAL:" you have trained with in White Crane Gongfu to arrive at your opinion as expressed here???

WHO HAVE YOU HAVE TRAINED WITH IN WHITE CRANE GONGFU???

It's not hard mate. Just answer the questions and we can move on to further discussion regarding the actual subject of this thread. I mean, how hard can it be to say "I trained or learned from so and so of White Crane?

Then having established where you are coming from with in your experiences and views of White Crane Gongfu we can then take the discussion further as we will then know on what you are basing those very same views upon? .... pretty straight up and simple to me!

Until then, you will simply been seen as a someone throwing up "smokescreens" and evading the actual aspects of this discussion taking place.

From reading other threads on this esteemed forum in which you have posted, this throwing up "smokescreens", evasion of answering questions put to you and making statements with no follow through or sharing seems to be a standard thing with you. At least that's how others also have written so I cannot be the only person expressing these views regarding you Hendrik.

So simply put, Hendrik this is your chance to turn all that around and actually become more then a what the general population of posters on this forum also think about you. This is the chance to actually contribute in a positive way.

Trust me, opening up and sharing, I mean really sharing instead of acting all "Superior" or "Holier than Thou" will make your time here so much more pleasant and who knows, you may just actually enjoy the discussions and maybe, just maybe, Hendrik might also learn something.

Hendrik
11-28-2011, 08:27 AM
Ron,

Think and read as you love. I am ok to accept you as who you are.

Your intention is clear.


Also, one doesn't have to know Steve jobs to have iPhone and use iPhone. But if one doesn't have an iPhone showing steve jobs letter doesn't make one has an iPhone.

Hendrik
11-28-2011, 08:42 AM
A little bit of advice, if you didn't deliberately try to come across as a "Know-It-All" then maybe you'd be treated a little different and the discussions would flow so much better. But when you come across as believing that you and only you have all the answers well mate it just makes it look like "you are up yourself!"

No one person has all the answers. That's why the Martial Arts are such a wonderful journey! Focus on the journey Hendrik and forget about the destination. Be prepared to learn from others and to curb your ego and you will find a whole new world of learning will open up for you.> Ron

You are missing the point. The bottom line is those charts dont tell the true Chinese stories. This, it cannot brought to life in the reality. Meaning those who follow these will not get the process to get the Kung fu but get stuck in seems correct ideas.

sanjuro_ronin
11-28-2011, 12:33 PM
You two need to stop making this personal and doing this crap over these threads.
Ron, this is an english speaking forum, when you post something in a different language then you should translate it too.
Hendrick, if you are not gonna be productive in a thread, then don't post or at least don't be disruptive.
Cool?

sanjuro_ronin
11-28-2011, 12:35 PM
A clip that I like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w9Nu-FdB0o

Minghequan
11-28-2011, 01:27 PM
Hendrik:

Ron,

Think and read as you love. I am ok to accept you as who you are.

Your intention is clear.


Also, one doesn't have to know Steve jobs to have iPhone and use iPhone. But if one doesn't have an iPhone showing steve jobs letter doesn't make one has an iPhone.

What the F!


Hendrik:

You are missing the point. The bottom line is those charts dont tell the true Chinese stories. This, it cannot brought to life in the reality. Meaning those who follow these will not get the process to get the Kung fu but get stuck in seems correct ideas.

Okay Hendrik, You say the Charts are missing the point then please go ahead and tell us all exactly what this missing point is! Tell us all what the the true Chinese Stories are. Please share!

Hendrik, if your not willing to share then please simply say nothing. Otherwise you simply end up looking like a "Story Teller!"

Once again I ask you a few very direct, very easy to answer questions:

!/. Please inform us all exactly how many actual White Crane Training Manuals you have actually written and had published?

2/. Who exactly did you train with that actually taught you White Crane?

3/. How many years did you physically practice and learn White Crane Gongfu?

I ask this simply because it will serve to educate us all exactly where it is you are coming from with your statements as made here.


After all Hendrik, I have answered everyone of your questions and then some!

I have shared openly my views about the subject, time for you to do the same .... please!

One more question:

Hendrik, Please tell me why you would be one of the people I should turn to for knowledge of White Crane Gongfu?

I, along with the others here await your reply.

If your not willing to answer these very easy questions, then take your own advice, go home!


you are not serious wanting to find out what is going on in White Crane. that is what I pick up from here. So, I am out of here.

Great, then stop wasting our time and let those of us who are actually WILLING TO SHARE & DISCUSS get on with it! Bye bye!

Minghequan
11-28-2011, 01:36 PM
sanjuro_ronin:

You two need to stop making this personal and doing this crap over these threads.
Ron, this is an english speaking forum, when you post something in a different language then you should translate it too.
Hendrick, if you are not gonna be productive in a thread, then don't post or at least don't be disruptive.
Cool?

Hey thanks. Great advice. Nothing personal about this for me. Just trying to make sense of Hendrik's innocuous statements which he refuses to clarify or expand upon. Last time I looked this was a discussion forum. Let's all share!

Agreed, I did offer a translation to the Charts posted. Hope you found something small of interest in them. Perhaps you care to discuss your views on this?

I also agree, if one is not prepared to expand upon or fully explain the statements they make and not willing to share and be productive then better they say nothing at all.

Minghequan
11-28-2011, 01:38 PM
sanjuro_ronin:

A clip that I like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w9Nu-FdB0o

Please share what it is you like about this particular clip?

What are the aspects of the performance that you like?

Hendrik
11-28-2011, 02:05 PM
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/7875/whitecranetranslate.jpg

白鶴牶乃「鶴」與「武術」經由象形而取意之仿生思維所融合而成的牶法。
The White Crane Fist is a style that was developed by combining the animated imitation of the "Crane" and the "martial arts" concepts.

本文依據中國武術功、法(形)的技擊本質,歸結出外顯可見與內斂不可見之形氣神的身體現象,研究架構如圖三 所示:

This text was based on the skilled sparring on the Chinese martial arts Kung(cultivation) and Fa(form) essential basics. Finalized something that one may see the body phenomena of the Form, Chi, and Shen externally but not internally. The research configuration is shown in Diagram 3.

1. 白鶴牶的運動哲學: The philosophy of the White Crane Fist movements.

象形取意的仿生思想: Ideas are mimic from pictographic forms of action (from animals )for the thoughts of animation.

武術技擊 (martial art sparring)----------->白鶴牶(White Crane Fist)-------->(仙禽-鶴) immortal-Crane
白鶴牶(White Crane Fist)------------->人(Human)

2. 武術功法:Martial art cultivations and methods-------->
四功 (the four cultivations):吞 (inhale),吐 (exhale),浮 (flow),and 沉 (sink) 功練氣(method in breathing)
四法 (the four methods): 飛 (fly),嗚 (yell),宿 (rest),and 食 (eat) 定精神 (To set the inner soul)

3. 陰陽五行 (Yin-Yang, the five elements)-------->
外顯可見的運動形態 (The movement gestures may be seen externally)--->
內斂不可見的生命能量 (The vital energy may not be seen internally)


4. 形氣神三位一體的身體觀(The body view of "Form, Chi, and Shen" three in one as an integral.
形: 運動的形態 (The posture of movements). 
氣: 吐納之術 (The ultimate method of exhalation and inhalation).
神: (意識思維) The thinking of consciousness.

白鶴牶的身體拍哲理 (The body philosophy of the White Crane Fist)

Figure 3: The research configuration Chart.




the following are my views on the above chart for those who is interested in technical details.


1,

it is well know that White Crane is a martial art, and the early White Crane core on MOMENTUM handling method 勢法 and it always is because Chinese martial art is a momenum handling game.



As it is said in the classical writing
<方七娘白鶴拳十五勢> Fang Chi Niang white Crane 15 momentum type.

這十五個勢應為當時最早見之於拳譜中的勢法,當是當時所傳教的。 This 15 momentum type should be the earliest recorded in the Kuen Po. This is what was taught in White Crane at that early era.



2, take a look at the above chart, it mentions NOTHING about Momentum handling method/type or 勢法.

How can such a chart be the 白鶴牶的運動哲學: The philosophy of the White Crane Fist movements. when the core of the core or the goal , the momentum handling type is not mention?



3, Wing Chun Kuen is a derivative of one of the early White Crane 15 momentum handling method/type, namely the facing sun momentum handling type.


十五勢拳譜中所寫: [招 (昭) 陽。白鶴拳法之五:凡拳起手,只要招 (昭)陽,無論他用何勢,可用此勢]……。

within the 15 momentum handling type, facing sun is number 5th. disregards what the opponent's momentum type one always can use this facing sun momentum handling type.


4, further more the so called daoist knowledge about is also distorted.

4. 形氣神三位一體的身體觀(The body view of "Form, Chi, and Shen" three in one as an integral.
a, 形: 運動的形態 (The posture of movements). 
b, 氣: 吐納之術 (The ultimate method of exhalation and inhalation).
c, 神: (意識思維) The thinking of consciousness.



it is Jing, Chi, and Shen, not Form, Chi, and Shen.

a, Form is not the common denominator but Jing or the body's chemistry component is.

b, Chi does not only mean 吐納之術 exhalation and inhalation, but more and extended to the control the Qi flow in the body.

c, shen is beyond 意識思維 or intention and thinking or the thinking of consciousness. Shen is the energy to aware. got nothing to do with thinking.



5, thus, the above chart are a modern composed using different components however they dont integrate. sure it looks grand but it is useless because the person who wrote it has no experience in what it is.



so, do you want to make it works or do you want to keep dropping names and all kind of sounds grand writing but goes no where in the reality?

TenTigers
11-28-2011, 02:34 PM
I really like the Wing Chun Bak Hok samjien kuen.
I am not crazy about the elbow position on the strikes.
I can see how the raised elbows can open up an opening, but structurally, it is weak and will not hold up against a stronger bridge.
It also breaks alignment for the strike.
I find this curious.

sanjuro_ronin
11-28-2011, 03:17 PM
Please share what it is you like about this particular clip?

What are the aspects of the performance that you like?

Well, that was how I was taught sanjan so...obviously I like it because of that :D
That aside, to me and how I was introduced and taught sanjan/sanchin/samchien/sam boo jin was that it was a development form and that it was to develop the muscles and ligaments with a combination of dynamic tension and explosive "jing".
Depending on the system ( or even the training being done at the time), one prioritizes one aspect over another of makes them "equal".
In that clip, that is what I see.
But of course I may be bias.

Mr. C
11-28-2011, 08:59 PM
Not for anything, Mr. Goninan, but according to this link:

http://www.emptyflower.net/forums//index.php?showtopic=9117

On the 24th of this month, you were looking for someone to translate one of the charts you posted here. What gives? didnt YOUR white crane teacher, mentor or advisor give you this information? Did he give it to you in english? I'm starting to think that your the guy with the EGO, posting what look to me to be common recognition plaques and certificates, quite popular nowadays after some contribution:rolleyes:.

Minghequan
11-28-2011, 09:01 PM
Hen****,

I've grown tired of your crap.

You refuse to answer questions put to you!

You throw up "smokescreens" at every available opportunity and basically contribute nothing of any real value to the discussion!

Then you come on here and claim that only YOU know the real way and everyone else is wrong!

The charts also don't mention the Eight Fighting Principles ~ Ba Tse. It doesn't mention Xiao, Die, Shou, Chu, Zhan, Zhuan, Fan, and Ce either. It also doesn't mention Power & Five Rules (Jin Li, Wu Tse Li) or Five Elements Theory (Wu Hsing / Wu Xing). Not to mention Four Gates Theory (Sz Men), Inside & Outside Gates (Jung Men, Bien Men), Upper, Middle & Lower Areas (Sang Pan, Zhong Pan, Xia Pan), San Jiao Shen Fa, 松 'Song’ nor the He Quan Quan Jue Fist Poem to the such as "Tuck in Tailbone, buttocks Song, Song and Yi Down. Release Song into your whole body and muscles".

In fact, there is a great deal the charts shown DON"T mention! Does that make them of any lesser value? I think not. It is all part of the on-going learning process (that is for those who don't think "they know it all").

You see you have taken these charts and twisted them to suit yourself.

Have you read the following pages of the book/author from which these charts are reproduced here??? .... Let me answer for you (as we all know just how you love answering questions put to you!!) ..... NO!

To take such a stand as yours, to place yourself above those who actually train in White Crane Gongfu is just plain silly and self aggrandizing!

You are just a WING CHUN guy.

You have never trained in White Crane Gongfu! Yet you claim to know all there is about it! Can't you see just how silly this truly is?

But then "know -it-alls" are blinded by themselves!

Hendrik, you have nothing of value to offer this discussion. I sincerely doubt you ever will until you get "over yourself"

Minghequan
11-28-2011, 09:18 PM
Mr. C

Credability? (SIC)
Not for anything, Mr. Goninan, but according to this link:

http://www.emptyflower.net/forums//i...showtopic=9117

On the 24th of this month, you were looking for someone to translate one of the charts you posted here. What gives? didnt (SIC) YOUR white crane teacher, mentor or advisor give you this information? Did he give it to you in english? (SIC) I'm starting to think that your the guy with the EGO, posting what look to me to be common recognition plaques and certificates, quite popular nowadays after some contribution.

Mr. C,

Hey thanks for your post and your interest.

What style of White Crane do you do to be interested in this discussion?

To start with if your going to have a go at someone over their quality then should you not also be of quality? By this, the actual term you mentioned is spelt "Credibility" not "Credability" (sic).

Yes I did post on Emptyflower. I am active on a number of forums and I seek out differing points of view to my own. Nothing wrong with that. I posted the charts to see if others shared the same translations as I have. Sadly, no-one entered into this matter and so it was left where it stands.

I am no doubt you are aware that Chinese hanzi and in particular that associated or related to Chinese Martial Arts can and all too often is, interpreted in a great variety of ways and meanings. This is no different.

It can be the same with the English written word ... subject to the interpretation of the reader.

Yes my White Crane guides/mentor did actually give me their interpretation. Thank you.

Of interest is people I know from other styles of Chinese Martial arts also gave their views on the same thing. It has been interesting comparing the various translations received and again I add that their has been some considerable differences in same. I guess it all comes down to personal experience and perspective ... would you agree?

I can ensure you that the so-called "plaques" or "certificates" as you put it are not all that common nor easily obtained. Maybe they have been for you? ... I don't know nor would I ever dare to assume so on your behalf. That would be wrong now would it not?

Thanks for your interest and discussion anyway.

Anything to say on the actual subject of "Fukien/Fujian White Crane?"

Minghequan
11-28-2011, 09:27 PM
Ten Tigers:

I really like the Wing Chun Bak Hok samjien kuen.
I am not crazy about the elbow position on the strikes.
I can see how the raised elbows can open up an opening, but structurally, it is weak and will not hold up against a stronger bridge.
It also breaks alignment for the strike.
I find this curious.
__________________

Interesting. I do not claim to know all that much about Wing Chun even though I have a lot of friends who do this wonderful style.

I have to agree with you regarding the position of the elbow and the lack of protection it affords. And yes, from a structurally point of view it does seem that the bridging hands would be weakened.

Body-Energy-Meridian-Alignment as I put it, is a vital aspect of our own White Crane Gongfu. The correct alignment leads to a better expression of energy as well as structural integrity and protection.

Ten Tigers, I really enjoy discussion with you. It's interesting and I think I just may have to spend some more time with my friend from Hung Kuen to look at the areas of a possible connection or at least and influence of White Crane. Thank you!

Hualong
11-28-2011, 09:30 PM
Ron,

Did you photocopy this picture and put your head on it? :eek:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/84/shifufengwushifuruandon.jpg/

The picture shows Master Ruan Dong, Feng Wu, and David Williams who was a member of your association before you photocopied your head onto this picture, and then sent it to people as confirmation that you have met Master Ruan Dong.:confused:

If you want to deny it I am sure that David Williams will come on here himself and say something about it.:o

Well, can you answer this?

Or are your moderator buddies going to remove my post again?

Hualong :)

Minghequan
11-28-2011, 09:39 PM
Sanjuro_ronin:

Well, that was how I was taught sanjan so...obviously I like it because of that
That aside, to me and how I was introduced and taught sanjan/sanchin/samchien/sam boo jin was that it was a development form and that it was to develop the muscles and ligaments with a combination of dynamic tension and explosive "jing".
Depending on the system ( or even the training being done at the time), one prioritizes one aspect over another of makes them "equal".
In that clip, that is what I see.
But of course I may be bias.

Okay. What was the style/form of the SanZhan you were taught? I ask simply so I may know from where you are coming from.

If I'm not mistaken the SanZhan on that clip is from the Wen (Ong) Gong Shr Wushuguan of the Pan family. As such their are some slight differences between this line and the line of Master Su YingHan.

The Pan style seems somewhat more externally focussed perhaps even static and ballistic in its expression whereas the YongChun version of Master Su Yinghan is somewhat more connected (at least that's how I see it but then I'm certainly no "expert" nor do I claim to be!). I guess at the end of the day it all comes down to a matter of perspective and what you are seeking to take away from the form.

Minghequan
11-28-2011, 09:48 PM
Hualong,

Okay I get it. You don't like me. That's okay. There are people I'm not that fond of either.

The short answer is no I did not "photocopy" or any other form of imagery to superimpose my head on that image but I do know who did and have dealt with that person/matter to the result that said person is no longer a member of my school/association. I could give you a name but I doubt that would have any impact on the issue. (By the way, I have visible tattoos on my forearms so its not a very good attempt at that).

Secondly, I don't have any "Moderator Friends" here so I really don't know what you getting at here. If you have a problem with this forum and moderation then take it up with them directly.

Lastly, it seems that types like you sadly have little better to do then trawl the Web seeking down posts by myself and most likely others in a rather sad attempt to ply personal (even though we have never met) and political (Go figure!) agendas

Now, if you have something you wish to add to the actual discussion instead of peddling martial arts politics then I'd be happy to talk with you.

Best wishes!

Minghequan
11-28-2011, 10:19 PM
Here's a link that may be of interest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UBPa1IdSWs&feature=related

It's Master Lee Kong of the Zhangzhou Jie Yuan Tan Jian Pai White Crane Boxing performing his Shi er jie dao : 12 joints power form.

Your thoughts?

Mr. C
11-28-2011, 10:30 PM
Im sure there are many translations but since alot these martial writings are cryptic and therefore only those in the know, will know and now that you cleared up those certificates as actual proof of your knowledge, I dont understand why would you want to know what others not in your circle, translate them as. I mean, do you have self doubts on what was taught to you? If not then are you posting them to boast? There are many experts here but I cant remember any one of them posting their certificates of qualification. Since you describe yourself as a "seeker", why not just ask about the charts and keep your certificates to yourself. Also It seems there are no self admitted Fujian White Crane experts on this board, so what do you hope to "seek" here?

FYI, I was impressed with 3 branches of Fujian crane when I first started learning CMA, the closest I came to studing it was a derivative ; Ng Mui Kuen. I do however still appreciate the parent art. I have read what people here have written about it and only found Eric Ling and Hendrik credible. (Is my spelling correct?) I will leave you to your discussion and wish you the best in "seeking" the answers.

Blacktiger
11-28-2011, 10:43 PM
Ron,

Did you photocopy this picture and put your head on it? :eek:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/84/shifufengwushifuruandon.jpg/

The picture shows Master Ruan Dong, Feng Wu, and David Williams who was a member of your association before you photocopied your head onto this picture, and then sent it to people as confirmation that you have met Master Ruan Dong.:confused:

If you want to deny it I am sure that David Williams will come on here himself and say something about it.:o

Well, can you answer this?

Or are your moderator buddies going to remove my post again?

Hualong :)

This has all be played out a few times already:

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56450

Mr. C
11-28-2011, 11:11 PM
studing should be studying....at least in this thread :D

Thanks for reminding us Black Tiger.......I guess history does repeat itself.

Let me not waste anymore bandwidth

Take Care

Hualong
11-28-2011, 11:40 PM
Ditto

His a waste of time.

Bye

sanjuro_ronin
11-29-2011, 08:58 AM
Threads get locked and closed when people start making things personal and calling other frauds and so forth.
Doesn't matter WHO starts the thread, the moment it gets to that point then the thread is locked.
If you guys wanna discuss FWC, crane and if you don't agree with each other, fine, state your reasons but keep it civil.
And Ron, stop asking people about their lineage because their views MAY not be the same as yours, ok?
If you don't care for a poster, ignore them.

fan
11-29-2011, 09:35 AM
ron, thanks for your sharing. what you wrote on white crane kung fu tallies with my own notes and expands on them. what you have provided is usable information which i can use as cross reference and pointers. i understand you are not asserting what you write is the final word but rather you are seeding a discussion on white crane kung fu which others can hopefully add to or clarify in an open, constructive manner. here's my token contribution: in the far east, sifu lee kang is indeed a reputable white crane master. hope to hear more about sifu lee and his art!

Minghequan
11-29-2011, 04:12 PM
Mr. C:

Credibility, Thanks Ron
Im (SIC) sure there are many translations but since alot (SIC) these martial writings are cryptic and therefore only those in the know, will know and now that you cleared up those certificates as actual proof of your knowledge, I dont (SIC) understand why would you want to know what others not in your circle, translate them as. I mean, do you have self doubts on what was taught to you? If not then are you posting them to boast? There are many experts here but I cant remember any one of them posting their certificates of qualification. Since you describe yourself as a "seeker", why not just ask about the charts and keep your certificates to yourself. Also It seems there are no self admitted Fujian White Crane experts on this board, so what do you hope to "seek" here?

FYI, I was impressed with 3 branches of Fujian crane when I first started learning CMA, the closest I came to studing (SIC) it was a derivative ; Ng Mui Kuen. I do however still appreciate the parent art. I have read what people here have written about it and only found Eric Ling and Hendrik credible. (Is my spelling correct?) I will leave you to your discussion and wish you the best in "seeking" the answers.

I answer quickly as I don't want to get bogged down in an "Internet P#ssing Contest"

1/. I went to a few different people because they all will have different takes on the charts. I am a great believer in learning (you should try it).

2/. What I know is not the subject of this discussion. Neither was the issue of certificates displaying of who I I know until Hendrik brought it up. Hendrik went down that road, not I. For what its worth, I simply responded.

3/. To boast? What in the blue hell am I supposed to be boasting about?

4/. Re: Certificates .. Read No 2/.

5/. What do I hope to seek here? Simple: exchange, good discussion, learning different people's points of view (without the usual personalised agendas and petty politics) .... Nothing wrong with that!

Which 3 branches of White Crane impressed or interested you? it would be interesting to know and what about them impressed you?

Eric Ling has done a great deal of research on the subject of White Crane. Some of his stuff is very good and interesting, worthy of merit. Some of it sadly is a little political and example of this is what he wrote concerning GM Ruan Dong and GM Huang Xian Xian. I also feel or am under the impression that his approach to Crane is a commercial concern.

Hendrik on the other hand ..... well!

Thanks you for the discussion.

Minghequan
11-29-2011, 04:16 PM
Mr. C :

OOps
studing should be studying....at least in this thread

Thanks for reminding us Black Tiger.......I guess history does repeat itself.

Let me not waste anymore bandwidth

Take Care

Sorry you feel that way. It has been interesting. Thanks for the discussion!

Minghequan
11-29-2011, 04:17 PM
Hualong Ditto

His (SIC) a waste of time.

Bye

Hualong,

Bye! :)

Hendrik
11-29-2011, 04:19 PM
For anyone who is interested to see a real deal from the ancient China, here is one.
This is the chart of Emei 12 Zhuang the ancient art which is fused with White Crane to create the Siu Lin Tau art which later become Wing Chun Kuen.

This is the most top view or Chart of this ancient system which is preserve in the Beijing Museum today.

here are details under this chart.


1, the top row right above to the box is the 12 type of technics.

2, The box means the frame the 12 type of technics serving.
In side the box with the drawing of human, dragon....ect means the physical world we are living in.
the letter in the middle of the box stated Ying Yang explicit implicit....
The character in the left means application of the art. the character in the right means body /soul/ engine of the art.
The character at the bottom of the box means form, shape, material/physical.

3, the three character supporting the physical world box is the Jing Qi and Shen.

4, The box in the most bottom supporting the Jing Qi and Shen, is the Tatagatha's four wisdom. within the four wisdom box is the true emptiness wonderful existance. and in the very middle of this box is the Buddha nature.

5, there is a dotted line on the left connect the top row to the application of the middle box to the bottom box. this is the lively characteristics of the buddha nature.

6, there is a dotted line on the right connect the top row to the body of the middle box to the bottom box. this it the freedom characteristics of the buddha nature.




Thus, there are lots and lots of details how Martial art, Daoist practice, Buddhism fuse together and all the details in training to attain each type of kung fu. it is much much more complex then most in the west think. it is practically a technology and with details process.


It is this type of quality and details which I use as reference when doing research into the acient art.

Wing Chun Kuen got it's Zen and Qi from this art. in fact, the sealing off and close off, of Wing Chun is from this art. Wing Chun is not doing what most southern fist call the Lien Sil Dai Da or hit and cancle in the same time. but expert in Sealing off and close off. that is the trade mark of Wing Chun. seal off.....

There are details and details can be investigate and discuss. and sure, i know this because i have spend 30 years in the search among with lots of friends who help me.

Minghequan
11-29-2011, 04:28 PM
Sanjuro_ronin:

Threads get locked and closed when people start making things personal and calling other frauds and so forth.
Doesn't matter WHO starts the thread, the moment it gets to that point then the thread is locked.
If you guys wanna discuss FWC, crane and if you don't agree with each other, fine, state your reasons but keep it civil.
And Ron, stop asking people about their lineage because their views MAY not be the same as yours, ok?
If you don't care for a poster, ignore them.

Thanks for your post. I just happen to agree with you!

The very moment you decide to call any Martial Arts practitioner a liar, fraud, or to bring their character into questions is when your own character is being brought into question! I have been guilty of this here in regards to Hendrik. For that I apologise. The only reason I asked Hendrik for an explanation of what White Crane he has trained in was to get an idea as tho upon what he was basing his claims about the art. For what I can see, he is a Wing Chun and not White Crane person. Nothing wrong with that! Just be honest and say so.

When you call the experiences and skill of another Martial Artist into question then you call your own skill and experience within the Martial Arts into question!

So if you must stand in judgement of me (or any other person for that matter) look at what I do, what I teach on the floor. How I treat my fellow seekers at our school. How I treat my family, friends and people in everyday life as thats true Martial Arts .... Wude.

Its not who I trained with. its not what certificates I hold. It is found purely in what I teach.

Im not going to delve deeply into the lives of others in my life. Certainly not to any extent whereby I give out personal info or pass judgements on others. this is not the place to do so and I have no right to bring others lives into the revealing of mine.

Im not going to rave on about my Martial Arts history. History deals with the past. Im far more interested in the future and where I / we are headed! I will however shed some light on the views that shape me as I now am.

The White Crane I teach is my own.

Even though its influences, its core may be found in the White Crane Gongfu / Wushu of others .... it is, without a doubt my own White Crane.

It has been influenced by my own personal experiences and understanding (or lack of some might say!) within the Martial Arts. it has been influenced by my own beliefs as to what the Martial Arts should be. It has been influenced by my own personality, physicality, philosophy, lifestyle, environment, needs, wants, desires and lastly my own unique, creative expression!

The truth be told (If not readily admitted to by most) is that we all influence or create our own expression of the Martial Arts even if it is an already established style. We each make it our own.

Its sad that far too many have ignored this fundamental, essential truth and aspect of human nature and have attempted to set what they were taught into concrete. Cement teachings that were meant to free the individual to take and make the teachings that of their own. Their own expression and art.

I am at heart a good human being whose main aim has always been the improvement of myself and those who walk this path with me. As such, I genuinely enjoy hearing from others and welcome their input and comments.

However, if your desire to contact me or your request for information is based in a political or personalised agenda, I will simply try to take Sanjuro_Ronin's sage advice to ignore you and offer no reply.

Minghequan
11-29-2011, 04:38 PM
Fan:

ron, thanks for your sharing. what you wrote on white crane kung fu tallies with my own notes and expands on them. what you have provided is usable information which i can use as cross reference and pointers. i understand you are not asserting what you write is the final word but rather you are seeding a discussion on white crane kung fu which others can hopefully add to or clarify in an open, constructive manner. here's my token contribution: in the far east, sifu lee kang is indeed a reputable white crane master. hope to hear more about sifu lee and his art!

Thank you for entering in the discussion. As for your all too kind words, well I'm really not worthy. I am simply a seeker of the way like most others on this forum.

As such, I am here to discuss and learn .... nothing wrong with that in my book!

Lee Kong (Kang) is a good friend and his White Crane has had a wonderful impression on my own ... not only in the advancing levels but right throughout what I teach and how I approach it all.

I am very fond of his performance of the Shi er jie dao : 12 joints power form shown here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UBPa...eature=related

It has a power, a spirit, an essence, an expression that just seems to "speak" to me in untold ways.

Wonderful!

He serves as the Technical Master and Advisor, the Martial Arts School Consultant to myself, my own expression of White Crane and my school.

Hendrik
11-29-2011, 04:42 PM
For that I apologise. The only reason I asked Hendrik for an explanation of what White Crane he has trained in was to get an idea as tho upon what he was basing his claims about the art. For what I can see, he is a Wing Chun and not White Crane person. Nothing wrong with that! Just be honest and say so.



For many time, I have addressed

I train in wing chun, my wing chun is a direct blood line from the Red Boat 1850. I have been train in ancient wing chun which involve White Crane.

as I have pointing out, my Wing Chun is a derivative of the original 15 momentum handling type of the White Crane core taught by Fan Chi Niang the founder.


So, call it wing chun or a part of White Crane or whatever you like. I dont care.

The bottom line is I have inherit a part of the core of the White Crane core.

and

Ron,

to be honest to yourself, what do you inherit from Fang Chi Niang the White Crane founder beside all those propaganda you like to make?

You dont even know what is the core of White Crane until I point it out the chart is seriously in complete. but keep pushing your title and your name dropping which to be real honest mean nothing in the Chinese Kung fu world.


Do I care all these title and certificates? Nope, it doesnt matter what is the tittle or even if Fang Chi Niang or Master Lee kong is here as judge. What I have is what I have. they will get what they see. it is about Kung fu. and kung fu means knowing the bottom line core and the details.

Minghequan
11-29-2011, 04:47 PM
Hendrik, finally you have posted something of interest and value to the discussion! (relax buddy, it's a joke!).

The chart is interesting.

It's interesting to see the fusing of the Daoist & Buddhism practice.

In a way it is similar to the Wuyishan area of Fujian Province, an area where the ancient Min and Yue people where found from the second century B.C.

In this area Taosism, Buddhism and Confucianism have coexisted in harmony for many years.

Minghequan
11-29-2011, 05:20 PM
Hendrik:

For many time, I have addressed

I train in wing chun, my wing chun is a direct blood line from the Red Boat 1850. I have been train in ancient wing chun which involve White Crane.

as I have pointing out, my Wing Chun is a derivative of the original 15 momentum handling type of the White Crane core taught by Fan Chi Niang the founder.


So, call it wing chun or a part of White Crane or whatever you like. I dont care.

The bottom line is I have inherit a part of the core of the White Crane core.

and

Ron,

to be honest to yourself, what do you inherit from Fang Chi Niang the White Crane founder beside all those propaganda you like to make?

You dont even know what is the core of White Crane until I point it out the chart is seriously in complete. but keep pushing your title and your name dropping which to be real honest mean nothing in the Chinese Kung fu world.


Do I care all these title and certificates? Nope, it doesnt matter what is the tittle or even if Fang Chi Niang or Master Lee kong is here as judge. What I have is what I have. they will get what they see. it is about Kung fu. and kung fu means knowing the bottom line core and the details.

Hendrik,

And here I was actually agreeing with the recent chart you posted and, yes, even saying nice things about you and then you have to come along in your post referenced above, getting all self-important again, raving on about your Wing Chun being this or that, White Crane or not White Crane, original or not original .... man who cares!

I mean for the most part of your participation in this discussion you have tried to make it personal, tried to make it about me and about yourself.

For the most part of your involvement in this discussion you have spent it throwing up "smokescreens" and refusing to answer any and all questions put to you.

Now and all of a sudden, you get religion, you've swallowed some sort of so-called "truth serum" and want to share all about yourself and your background??? Why is that?

Does yourself enjoy seeing stuff written about yourself?

I mean why now?

The relevance to the last 4 pages of asking you for this info has long gone and now for some reason to us mere mortals in you resplendent company you actually decide to dare I say it .... share???

Hendrik, A few recent quotes from the Wing Chun forum:


Vajramusti - Yesterday, 03:54 PM:

Wow Hendrik. So you are calling Ip Man a consistent liar. Amazing!!l

joy chaudhuri

And this:


GLennR - Yesterday, 04:18 PM

Come on Joy, you cant be surprised really.

He's slagged of all and sundry to suit his argument, i remember having a great slanging match with him over TST who apparently (in Hendricks mind) doesnt know what he is doing.

He gets personal, he lies, he doesnt answer straight questions, he speaks down to people and (in my mind) hints at racism from time to time.

If he had anything to offer that would be fine.... but IMO he offers nothing

I add these here not to be unkind. But to simply illustrate the hubris and ego by which you are perceived and sadly widely seen on this forum by others.

Hendrik, we cannot all be wrong!

Mate I don't care if you were there training in Fuzhou with Fang Qiniang herself!

You my friend are NOT the "be-all & end-all" of Wing Chun, White Crane, Emei, Taiji, Taekwondo, Goju, Shotokan, Gracie Jujutsu South Dubai Wrestling Chickens that you present and therefore sadly believe you are!

Okay Hendrik, let me ask you ONE simple question:

Here it is, get ready now ........

Ready?

Okay!

1/. Have you and I ever met and trained together?

If your answer is "No" (now that would be a shock wouldn't it!) then please kindly keep your ill-informed views about what I do in my White Crane to yourself!!! :cool:

Why?:confused:

Simple. It does not matter for all of the proverbial tea in China what you write, what you think you know, how many charts you may post or copy and pastes of various Chinese hanzi!

Why Hendrik?

Simple. It's what you do on floor, in training and internalisation of your art that matters. It's to be found in how you treat people in everyday life not in who is the "most right: or most wrong".

All the history, the copy and paste of hanzi, all the words uttered, written and posted on forums since time immemorial mean absolutely zero when one is on the floor training for themselves. It means nothing in the street when the guy high on methamphetamine with a knife in his hand is bearing down on you and your family!

You see Hendrik ... that is real Kung Fu! That is the bottom line!

Hendrik
11-29-2011, 06:13 PM
Ron,

If you got the real deal of white crane put it on the table to discuss.

Otherwise Don't waste the forum playing your personal manipulative game.

Minghequan
11-29-2011, 07:39 PM
Hendrik:

Ron,

If you got the real deal of white crane put it on the table to discuss.

Otherwise Don't waste the forum playing your personal manipulative game.

Hendrik, just in case it escaped you I have been discussing White Crane with Sanjuro Ronin, Ten Tigers, Fan etc.

You have been the one that initially came on this thread to ply you agenda. Look back over page one. Tell me where I came on claiming I knew it all? Then look over your own posts. The evidence against you is overwhelming!

I refer to your posts on this thread:


11-28-2011, 10:35 AM
Hendrik

Those who make this chart does not understand the Chinese internal nei gong cultivation foundation. Thus, this chart is not useful for real deal.


11-28-2011, 10:37 AM
Hendrik

Another theory chart which looks great for layman however not much usefull. Not to mention the chart missed out the most key fundamental core of martial art.

Last edited by Hendrik; 11-28-2011 at 10:47 AM.



11-28-2011, 08:57 AM
Hendrik

What is internal? What is a daoist?
What daoist got to do with it?


11-28-2011, 12:22 PM
Hendrik

Go home, do your homework. See if it work for yourself and then post it. Otherwise, posting something which is not verified is problem isn't it?

You want to be an expert? Be a real one. What good to know not the subject ?
Last edited by Hendrik; 11-28-2011 at 12:30 PM.

A personal attack upon myself by you.

To use your own words Hendrik:

Can you differentiate between technical and side tracking the subject for personal attack?


11-28-2011, 04:39 PM
Hendrik

Ron,

If your research are at these level, then it is just new age superficial and useless. you need to find some real guys with real deal for your organization to get the basic first.
Last edited by Hendrik; 11-28-2011 at 04:43 PM.

A personal attack upon myself by you.

Here you not only attacked me but by association you also attacked and questioned the credibility of Master Lee Kong (He serves as the Technical Master and Advisor, the Martial Arts School Consultant to myself, my own expression of White Crane and my school.) and Master Su YingHan (Master & Advisor to myself & School/style) ......totally rude and uncalled for!



11-28-2011, 05:05 PM
Hendrik

You are name dropping here. Do you really get the advise from Su Ying Han or Lee Kong? I doubt. I know these two master's quality, so I doubt you take their advise.

Again, an attack upon me personally and an attack by association on the very good names and reputations of Masters Lee Kong and Su YingHan.

Hendrik, need I post more! The proof is there right in front of your own eyes! Not assumption. Not wild stabs in the dark! No Hendrik, Facts in black & white.

Fact: You started the mud-slinging and personalised attacks from your very first post.

Fact: From your very first post you revealed your agenda to put-down and attempt to discredit that which I posted.

Fact: You placed yourself above the Author of the book from which charts were derived. The author being an actual living, breathing exponent of White Crane!

Fact: The Fact is you are are NOT a White Crane Teacher, Practitioner, or Student by your own admission on this very forum! You have not actually trained in White Crane Gongfu! You are a Wing Chun person and have no real practical affiliation with White Crane Gongfu!

Fact: You questioned my association with Masters Lee Kong & Su YingHan.

Fact: As noted from other posters on these forums (Vajramusti & GlennR to name but two of many) your writings have been viewed as being full of hubris, ego and attacks upon others. Hell you even went as far to basically say that Ip Man was a consistent liar! Good God man! If that's not attacking and being personal and manipulative (these are your own words) then I don't know what is!

Lets have another look at GlennR's Post:


He gets personal, he lies, he doesnt answer straight questions, he speaks down to people and (in my mind) hints at racism from time to time.

The proof is right there Hendrik, staring you back in the face! Need I say more?

I could go on and on but I have already and easily (thanks to your own words & actions) proven you wrong!

I have easily proven that you attempt to manipulate the subject matter to suit yourself!

I have easily proven that you throw up "smokescreens" to avoid answering straight questions put to you!

I have easily proven that you attempt to "talk down' to others!

I had thought that you Hendrik was not too bad of a guy. I was willing to enter in to a mutual line of communication with you and to share and openly discuss the martial arts.

But then you showed us all your true self.

How do you discuss anything with someone who thinks they "Know it All?" :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I have since re-assessed my original thoughts about you and I now conclude that you not a terribly nice person. You lack social skills and the means to learn from others (mainly because all you can see is yourself). You fail to communicate in an open and friendly nature. I feel that Hendrik, your not a terribly content or happy person inside.

My advice Hendrik? Please take some time to look over yourself, your behaviour and find what it is within you that makes you so confronting on a personal level. Try to find the part of the martial arts that you love and focus on that.

Above all else Hendrik, strive to find yourself and be truly happy. If you can do this, then a whole new world will open up for you.

Now if you have nothing of any real substance to contribute in a positive manner to this actual discussion about Fukien/Fujian White Crane (or elsewhere on this forum) then kindly be quiet and let those of us (Sanjuro-Ronin, Ten Tigers, Fan & myself etc) discuss White Crane, our thoughts and feelings whether they be right or wrong in the eyes of others. That's what we are here for. Please let us get on with the discussion.

Minghequan
11-29-2011, 07:42 PM
Okay, that unpleasantly done with, anyone have any thoughts about the footage posted of Master Lee Kong and his Shi er jie dao : 12 joints power form shown here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UBPa...eature=related

I really like the fluidity of his movements and the wonderful expression of "Song".

Hendrik
11-29-2011, 10:09 PM
Yes. I do have an agenda. And that agenda is to dig out what is the real deal in tcma internal cultivation in details.

Minghequan
11-29-2011, 10:24 PM
So anyone have any thoughts about the footage posted of Master Lee Kong and his Shi er jie dao : 12 joints power form shown here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UBPa...eature=related

I really like the fluidity of his movements and the wonderful expression of "Song".

fan
11-30-2011, 12:22 AM
ron, most interesting: white crane 12 point power. could you post the youtube link again, the current link doesn't seem to work likely because vbulletin shortened the link URL. thanks!

[you might need to highlight the URL and click on the green globe icon in the editor's toolbar and enter the URL in the box provided or simply just post the title of the video which will allow readers to go to the video via youtube search.]

5thBrother
11-30-2011, 02:44 AM
nvm ... ...

Minghequan
11-30-2011, 03:40 AM
Wtf! ... Joking!:);):)

Blacktiger
11-30-2011, 03:43 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJXtXlDfvbc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdVBTWIGytw&feature=related

Ruan Dong - Legend :)

Minghequan
11-30-2011, 03:49 PM
Good stuff. Have seen all this before. In this clip he is mainly walking through the BaBulian form.

I am of the belief that GM Ruan Dong taught his "own" form which is great.

Minghequan
11-30-2011, 09:53 PM
Fan:

ron, most interesting: white crane 12 point power. could you post the youtube link again, the current link doesn't seem to work likely because vbulletin shortened the link URL. thanks!

[you might need to highlight the URL and click on the green globe icon in the editor's toolbar and enter the URL in the box provided or simply just post the title of the video which will allow readers to go to the video via youtube search.]

Sorry mate. I have been busy babysitting my two year old Grandson so I forgot to reply to your post. Please forgive my oversight and tardiness.

Try these links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UBPa1IdSWs&feature=related

福建永春白鶴拳 李剛師傅-十二節力

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwO0WQ8yeK4&feature=feedu

李剛師傅 永春白鶴 十二節力

Hey Fan,

I'd welcome you looking over my web site and then letting me know what you think:

http://www.whitecranegongfu.com

I also invite you to write to me personally via email:

baihe@whitecranefist.com

It would be great to hear from you!

GeneChing
04-05-2012, 12:21 PM
Grandmaster Lee Joo-Chian and Fujian White Crane (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1037) by Len Epp

Minghequan
04-05-2012, 06:05 PM
Thanks Gene,

Interesting stuff! Thank you again for sharing as that is what this forum should be about.

Any chance of you doing a feature mon Master Lee Kong from Hong Kong? His Crane is totally unique and it would be great to see his views reported in English.

GeneChing
04-06-2012, 10:15 AM
As for Master Lee Kong, you're the first to bring him to my attention as I'm not very involved in the crane circles. However in general, we don't seek out masters for interview. They typically come to us. For example, Len Epp is a freelance contributor. This is the second interview he has contributed to our ezine (the first was on Grandmaster Chiu Kwok-Chung (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=996)).