Yong Chun White Crane Chi Sao

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6LSJtIR_Uc

[Phil Redmond]

Fukien/Fujian Yong Chun White Crane is the father of Okinawa/Naha Te and Karate. Some say it's the base of Wing Chun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWh-uhw4C9s

[Hendrik]

Phil,

1, The following clip, starts 4.58/10.00 is exactly the type of old red boat Wing Chun Chi Sau which found in older Wing Chun family such as the Cho family and YKS.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QadGsuB9O5Q&feature=related




2, after this chi sau section, one can see the soft of White crane. that is similar to the crane playing with its wings. however, this is not the path Wing Chun's designer took.

Wing Chun took the Emei snake path where the finger and wrist part is tracing circle, where the other parts of the body limps/ joints is waving in an "S" shape. the tracing circle is what it is call the worm move, where the S shape trajectory of the body limps is called snake slide.

That is what a Worm move snake slide is about. that is the Snake engine of WCK.

Due to this different engine, the power, power generation and structure handling of WCK is different with the White Crane as shown in the clip.

So, it is more then just the intention or Nim Lik or triangle most of us think. the snake engine bring WCK into a dynamic structure platform.

So, for the set of WCK, if it is not practice with the snake engine, it will default back to White Crane.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Hendrik,

I did that double circling type chi sao for years in Hei Ban Wing Chun.

Suki

[trubblman]

Fukien/Fujian Yong Chun White Crane is the father of Okinawa/Naha Te and Karate. Some say it's the base of Wing Chun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWh-uhw4C9s

Agreed @ Wing Chun. Looking at some of the characteristics of Fujian White Crane and Wing Chun it seems that there are too many commonalities for it to be coincidental.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

I did that double circling type chi sao for years in Hei Ban Wing Chun.

Suki

Thanks for sharing.

[Hendrik]

Agreed @ Wing Chun. Looking at some of the characteristics of Fujian White Crane and Wing Chun it seems that there are too many commonalities for it to be coincidental.

The snake engine is still not well known yet. But it will be the next thing because it give soul to the set. It is like the reel silk to Chen taiji. That is the uniqueness. Otherwise it default to white crane or even some has mixed hung gar.

[Minghequan]

Hendrik:

A simple and easy question related to the discussion if I may ...........

Who have you actually trained with in White Crane?

I am sure we would all grow and learn from your answer here. Thank you.

[GlennR]

Hendrik:

A simple and easy question related to the discussion if I may ...........

Who have you actually trained with in White Crane?

I am sure we would all grow and learn from your answer here. Thank you.

Dont hold you breathe waiting...

[Minghequan]

GlennR:

Dont hold you breathe waiting...

Hi Glenn!

Hey another Aussie! Great! Why do you think Hendrik won't answer?

What style do you do? Always interested in hearing about others experiences in the Martial Arts!

[Phil Redmond]

Phil,

1, The following clip, starts 4.58/10.00 is exactly the type of old red boat Wing Chun Chi Sau which found in older Wing Chun family such as the Cho family and YKS.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QadGsuB9O5Q&feature=related. . . . 2, after this chi sau section, one can see the soft of White crane. that is similar to the crane playing with its wings. however, this is not the path Wing Chun's designer took.


Thanks, I can see some commonalities.

[LoneTiger108]

Thanks, I can see some commonalities.

If you look at the description Phil its says 'Poon Sau' ;)

But from my research this is how the whole of the mainland Yong Chun boys roll, influenced mainly by Pang Nam I think. Also what others would call 'wristing' :eek: and many Taichi groups have exactly the same rotation.

[Vajramusti]

If you look at the description Phil its says 'Poon Sau' ;)

But from my research this is how the whole of the mainland Yong Chun boys rolls, influenced mainly by Pang Nam I think. Also what others would call 'wristing' :eek: and many Taichi grous have exactly the same rotation.
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Ok-I am happy not to do mainland rolling- good wing chun chi sao is good enough for me- it's more comprehensive.

Pan Nam? he basically did hung ga and learned some wing chun.Not comprehensive.

I dont use the term wristing. The role of the kiu is important.

Taici/taiji structure is quite different from wc.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

Pan Nam? he basically did hung ga and learned some wing chun.Not comprehensive.

My point exactly Joy ;) I wouldn't even say the Red Boat guys/gals did this as their main concentration was on set posturing, not fluid interactions like this.

This is also where the mainlands Yong Chun Wushu developments originate I think, but can't be sure.

[Hendrik]

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Ok-I am happy not to do mainland rolling- good wing chun chi sao is good enough for me- it's more comprehensive.

Pan Nam? he basically did hung ga and learned some wing chun.Not comprehensive.

I dont use the term wristing. The role of the kiu is important.

Taici/taiji structure is quite different from wc.

joy chaudhuri

Joy,

The modern day WCK chi sau type is an invention of yks and ip man.

All older WCK lineages using the white crane type of chi sau platform. It is not taichi because the power generation and center line theory is in play in white crane.

[Hendrik]

If you look at the description Phil its says 'Poon Sau' ;)

But from my research this is how the whole of the mainland Yong Chun boys roll, influenced mainly by Pang Nam I think. Also what others would call 'wristing' :eek: and many Taichi groups have exactly the same rotation.




Yks and koo lo and cho family were there rolling that way even before pan nam was born.

white crane is not hung gar and not taichi because the center line theory is always playing within the chi sau. Also the power generation is different.

It is time for wcners to read in depth into the subject.

[Vajramusti]

Joy,

The modern day WCK chi sau type is an invention of yks and ip man.

All older WCK lineages using the white crane type of chi sau platform. It is not taichi because the power generation and center line theory is in play in white crane.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sure Hendrik... but Leung Jan-Leung Bik-Ip mam winchun in it's better versions has evolved beyond earlier roots.

joy

[LoneTiger108]

Yks and koo lo and cho family were there rolling that way even before pan nam was born.

Which only adds to the argument that Pan Nam has no legitimacy to help develop Wing Chun as a Wushu sport! I was only indicating who has influenced what 'now', because forgive me, I didn't see any one from Kulo/Cho or YKS family get involved.


white crane is not hung gar and not taichi because the center line theory is always playing within the chi sau. Also the power generation is different.

It is time for wcners to read in depth into the subject.

I think you need to look into other southern arts more too Hendrik, because to imply that Hung Kuen or Taichi have 'no centre line' training or concepts is ridiculous dude!

And on a personal note, I do not believe that YKS & Ip Man 'invented' any new interactive training.

[Hendrik]

Which only adds to the argument that Pan Nam has no legitimacy to help develop Wing Chun as a Wushu sport! I was only indicating who has influenced what 'now', because forgive me, I didn't see any one from Kulo/Cho or YKS family get involved.



I think you need to look into other southern arts more too Hendrik, because to imply that Hung Kuen or Taichi have 'no centre line' training or concepts is ridiculous dude!

And on a personal note, I do not believe that YKS & Ip Man 'invented' any new interactive training.

1. Pan nam can do what they like on their line of wing Chun.

2. To the contrary, because looking at the DNA. Hung kuen doesn't have the center line theory as white crane . Taiji doesn't either. Thus, white crane is called one of the major seed of tcma in the Chinese history.

3. Reality doesn't need to fit anyone's believe.

[Hendrik]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sure Hendrik... but Leung Jan-Leung Bik-Ip mam winchun in it's better versions has evolved beyond earlier roots.

joy


Everyone has their reason for evolution. Is it better? Depend.

Also, there is no proof of Ipman leong bik connection. But evidentially, Ipman is influence by Yks lineage. Even if leong bik exist his wing Chun will be like koo lo type. So, unless you can comes up with evidence of leong bik. Ipman wing Chun is yks influence evolution from chan wah wing Chun.


And now this type of evolution is facing the following type of issue which the older platform doesn't.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1143588&postcount=1


Not to mention more and more wcners is importing Chen taiji into this evolution.

[Phil Redmond]

If you look at the description Phil its says 'Poon Sau' ;)

But from my research this is how the whole of the mainland Yong Chun boys roll, influenced mainly by Pang Nam I think. Also what others would call 'wristing' :eek: and many Taichi groups have exactly the same rotation.
Some WC people use the term Poon Sao.

[GlennR]

And now this type of evolution is facing the following type of issue which the older platform doesn't.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1143588&postcount=1


Well that was a waste of 8 minutes.... what was the point of that video?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some WC people use the term Poon Sao.

Gotta love the Poon :D

[WC1277]

Joy,

The modern day WCK chi sau type is an invention of yks and ip man.

All older WCK lineages using the white crane type of chi sau platform....

If that is what older WCK lineages do than Ip Man, Leung Bik, whomever, didn't just evolve the system, but revolutionized it. There are more violations of good WC principles in that clip than I even care to point out.....

[Wayfaring]

Gotta love the Poon :D

Pics or didn't happen.

[Vajramusti]

Everyone has their reason for evolution. Is it better? Depend.

Also, there is no proof of Ipman leong bik connection. But evidentially, Ipman is influence by Yks lineage. Even if leong bik exist his wing Chun will be like koo lo type. So, unless you can comes up with evidence of leong bik. Ipman wing Chun is yks influence evolution from chan wah wing Chun.


And now this type of evolution is facing the following type of issue which the older platform doesn't.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1143588&postcount=1


Not to mention more and more wcners is importing Chen taiji into this evolution.
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Wow Hendrik. So you are calling Ip Man a consistent liar. Amazing!!l

joy chaudhuri

[Minghequan]

Vajramusti,

Well lets be honest, in his own perception, Hendrik is pretty amazing! :p:p:p

[GlennR]

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Wow Hendrik. So you are calling Ip Man a consistent liar. Amazing!!l

joy chaudhuri

Come on Joy, you cant be surprised really.

He's slagged of all and sundry to suit his argument, i remember having a great slanging match with him over TST who apparently (in Hendricks mind) doesnt know what he is doing.

He gets personal, he lies, he doesnt answer straight questions, he speaks down to people and (in my mind) hints at racism from time to time.

If he had anything to offer that would be fine.... but IMO he offers nothing

GlennR

[Hendrik]

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Wow Hendrik. So you are calling Ip Man a consistent liar. Amazing!!l

joy chaudhuri



Joy,

I am simply stating what is happening in mainland china.

How you want to take it is your freedom.

[Vajramusti]

Joy,

I am simply stating what is happening in mainland china.

How you want to take it is your freedom.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No Hendrik- you asserted much more than that.

joy

[Vajramusti]

And on a personal note, I do not believe that YKS & Ip Man 'invented' any new interactive training.
-------------------

On Ip man- I don't know what you mean.

joy

[Shadow_warrior8]

Leung Bik existed,

heshan kulo goverment already documented it

fatshan goverment already recorded it

Kulo Master Fung already mentioned it in a interview

Weng Chun Master Tam already mentioned it in a interview

Master Kwok fu in fatshan also mentioned it in a recorded interview

Kulo Master Leung who teaches the 22 san sik, mentions Leung Bik in many of his articles.

Ip man descendants, Ip Chun and Ip Ching and students majorly tell you their father, Sifu told them

"Big Mountain Shu" was a teacher of Chu Cheung Man and Chu told this story to New martial hero about what his teacher told him! For a short time Shu studied under Leung Jan when he was there so was Chan wah and LEUNG BIK!!! So here we have a lineage not related to Ip Man at all who mention Leung Bik

The Books in Ip Man Tong was passed down by Leung Jan- Leung Bik- Ip Man- Ip Ching, already proven by the goverment (you dont think the chinese just start a museum without verifying the information, I mean seriously they can find dinosaur fossils, buddhas from silk road etc....)

Was already discussed in great details here

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53075

[Shadow_warrior8]

http://www.foshanmuseum.com

Clear mention of Leung Bik in Leung Jan recorded History

梁赞（约1851-1918），武术名家　

佛山市博物馆网站——名人名家

　　梁赞（约1851-1918）鹤山县人。出生于佛山清正堂街家中。其父在佛山筷子大街市场内开设赞生堂药材店，精通岐黄医 术。 丧父后，开始在店中行医，深得病家称道。人们惯称他为“佛山赞先生”。

　　梁少年时便喜爱习武。父亲生时，曾广聘名师传授武功。继承父业后更求深造，得友人梁佳介绍 先后礼聘咏春 拳术传人黄华宝及其师弟梁二娣来佛山传技多年。两位前辈深喜梁英年勤奋，认为是可造之材，尽将 咏春拳术奥秘 及少林六点半棍法悉心教授。黄华宝辞别之日告知梁赞，谓他本是少林门下弟子，一向遵师遗命少林 弟子应以反清 复明为己任。嘱梁既已技成，可在佛山设馆授徒，从中物色人才，为反清复明积聚力量。梁赞遂于清 光绪初在赞生 堂内收徒传技，除其子梁璧外，得衣钵真传的有陈华顺、陈桂、梁奇、雷汝济、叶问等。　　咏春拳术经世代繁衍 现在已成为武术界中一大宗派。名人辈出，扬名国内外。近代名家李小龙正是梁赞的徒孙 。

.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Reference http://www.foshanmuseum.com

Its an official goverment museum!!! You know what they specialise in right? History and research.

Clear mention of leung bik in Ip Man history, who he learnt from as researched and recorded in mainland china.

佛山市博物馆网站——学术研究

刘建乐 佛山市博物馆副馆长　

摘　要：佛山是中国南派武术之乡，其浓厚的武术文化氛围培育了咏春拳名家叶问。叶问又像一位使 者，对咏春拳 的传播、推广做出了杰出的贡献。为了纪念叶问宗师，佛山建成叶问堂，使之成为咏春弟子寻根拜祖 的重要场所， 也是佛山武术文化的历史见证。


关键词：佛山武术文化　叶问　咏春拳　叶问堂


一、佛山浓厚的武术文化培育了咏春拳名家叶问

　　佛山是一座历史悠久的文化名城，“肇始于晋，得名于唐”。唐宋时期，佛山成为工商业城镇， 至明清时期已 成为举世闻名的“天下四大镇”、“天下四聚”之一。佛山在历史上经济繁荣，人民生活富庶，但地 幅狭小，地势 平坦，天然防御条件差，且地处广州西南部交通要道，历来为兵家必争之地，居民为求自保，很早就 形成习武强身 、自卫御敌的传统。明正统十四年（1449年），广东爆发黄萧养农民起义，起义军围攻广州，并 分兵进攻佛山 ，当时佛山“无甲兵之援，险塞之限，徒以其忠义之激发，能使阡陌耒耜之辈，奋而为精兵，而大敌 破者”, [1] 这足以说明“阡陌耒耜之辈”是经过技击训练的，具有一定的武术功底，才可以成为精兵，打败入侵 的黄萧养起义 军。

　明、清以来，随着佛山社会经济的发展，陶瓷、铸造、纺织、漂染和农产品加工等行业极为发达， 其从业人员大 都喜好参与武术活动，练武既可以让他们拥有强健的体魄，为从事繁重的体力劳动提供资本，又可以 成为这些社会 底层群众相互沟通的桥梁和纽带，成为他们的精神寄托。太平天国运动失败后，不少武林人士因参与 这次革命，遭 到清政府追杀迫害，而佛山既临近广州又手工业、商业繁盛，实为当时武林人士避祸安身之所，再加 上佛山民间素 有尚武的风气，于是吸引了各界武林人士纷沓而至，南派武术著名的洪拳、咏春拳、蔡李佛拳，虽然 并不发源于佛 山，但佛山却成为其重要的发扬基地。至清末民初，佛山成为中国南派武术之乡，习武者数以万计， 武馆林立，名 家辈出，在中国武术史上占有相当重要的地位。

　叶问就是佛山浓厚的武术文化培育出来的一代宗师。叶问（1893-1972），原名叶继问，佛山桑园叶氏家族人。叶家为佛山望族，坚持尊儒重教的严格家风，使叶问形成儒 雅的 性格。由于叶问幼时体弱多病，而此时佛山咏春拳宗师梁赞的弟子陈华顺（找钱华）租用桑园叶家宗 祠设馆授徒， 叶问便拜其为师，学习咏春拳术。由于叶问天资聪颖，领悟力强，深得师傅的喜爱，陈华顺对此年幼 弟子极为疼爱 ，自收叶问为徒后，则不再接受任何人士拜门学技，叶问成为其封门弟子，各位年长师兄如吴仲素、 陈汝棉、雷汝 齐等，对此年幼师弟更是照顾有加。陈华顺逝世后，叶问再随师兄吴仲素钻研拳技。到叶问十六岁那 年，远离佛山 ，赴香港求学，就读于圣士提反学校，后经同学介绍，认识梁赞的儿子梁璧，并随其习武三年，尽得 咏春真传，拳 艺突飞猛进。当他再回佛山时，包括吴仲素在内的同门诸师兄弟在拳艺上都远逊于他。以后的数十年 间，叶问常与 武术人士切磋交流，摄取各拳派的精华，使其拳艺达到炉火纯青的境界，又因其屡挫凶徒，屡败强手 ，秉承“习武 先立品”、“重节而轻利”的高尚武德，因此在佛山武术界被誉为咏春拳的第二位“梁赞”。

Leung Bik is mentioned, when Ip man was 16 he left fatshan to study in Hongkong, met Leung Bik, studied with him for 3 years

二、叶问是佛山武术文化传播的重要使者

　佛山咏春拳宗师梁赞(1826—1901)，原籍鹤山县古劳乡东便村，自幼随父在佛山筷子街 经营“赞生堂 ”药材店，精通医术。少时喜武，广聘名师传授武功，曾随粤剧武生黄华宝学习咏春拳，对咏春拳可谓 已“深得其 奥，建于化境”。当时不少武林人士慕名来佛山与其较量，俱为其所败，从而使咏春拳在南中国一带 名声大振。但 梁赞因药店缠身，再加上咏春拳的教授方法比较困难和吃力，难以多收多教，学费比较昂贵，非一般 人所能负担的 ，因此求技者多是一些富家子弟，因此当时“咏春拳”也被称为“少爷拳”，未能广授门徒，继其衣 砵者，唯陈华 顺一人。而陈华顺在佛山桑园叶家宗祠设馆授徒，有成就的弟子仅吴小鲁、吴仲素、雷汝济、陈汝棉 及叶问等人。 其中，只有叶问担当起推广和传播咏春拳的历史使命，成为佛山武术文化传播的重要使者。在叶问三 十余年的教拳 生涯中，可分为佛山教拳和香港教拳两个不同阶段：

　（一）、佛山教拳

　1938年，日本侵略军占领佛山，佛山经济衰退，民不聊生。当时，叶问生活十分艰难，幸赖好 友周清泉不时 接济，才得以度过难关。为报答周清泉接济之恩，叶问于1941—1943年间，在佛山永安路联 昌花纱行内开 馆教授周清泉之子周光耀、外甥伦佳，以及郭富、陈志新、吕应、伦佳、周细等学习咏春拳，这些人 成为叶问的第 一批门徒。

　　叶问十分注重对徒弟的选择，他常说：“徒弟选择一个好师傅，固然难，但师傅选择一个好徒弟 ，更 加困难。”作为一个以教拳为职志的人，能有这种心态，是难能可贵的，可见其对教拳的认真态度和 对所教徒弟的 高度责任心。而郭富就是叶问在佛山挑选出来的一个好徒弟。当年，郭富在佛山永安路一间糖面铺打 工，糖面铺对 面就是联昌花纱行。当郭富得知叶问在此教授咏春拳后，便托人找叶问拜师，却被叶问一口回绝。半 年后，叶问终 于被郭富的诚意打动，才允许其同富家子弟一起学习咏春拳。1945年，受战争影响，糖面铺关闭 ，郭富失业后 只好回到平洲乡下，与师傅不辞而别。当叶问发现自己喜欢的徒弟离开佛山后，就亲自到郭富的乡下 平洲夏教找他 ，于是就在郭富家的祖屋，叶问和郭富一起练拳，手把手教郭富，郭富则更加用心地练武。在此后的 近两年时间里 ，叶问经常步行几十里路来到夏教，继续向郭富传授咏春拳术，并将自己的所有拳谱、药书让郭富翻 抄记录了一遍 。据说当年叶问在香港逝世前，曾给弟子留下口信，以后要继续学习正宗的咏春拳，就到佛山夏教找 郭富。足见， 叶问对徒弟郭富是十分推崇的。

（二）、香港教拳

　由于毗邻港澳以及相应的政治经济等因素，佛山武林人士很早就走出国门，到海外谋生。特别是在 清末至大革命 失败、抗日战争初期及新中国成立前夕，都有大批武术家出走香港以至世界各地，客观上对佛山武术 文化起到了传 播、推广的作用。叶问也是在这样的历史背景下从佛山来到香港。

　1948年11月，叶问为了家计，独赴澳门谋生。1950年初辗转到香港，终因举目无亲，难 找职业，幸遇 旧友李民，劝其重新出教武技，暂为解决目前生活。[2]叶问姑且应允，在香港九龙大南街饭店职工总会开设第一个咏春班，不料竟以此成名，之后便在香港 设馆授徒，一 直致力于咏春拳的普及与推广。1953年左右在九龙汝洲街三太子庙教拳；1954—1955年 ，在九龙饭店 职工总会教拳；1955—1957年，在九龙油麻地利达街教拳；1957—1962年，在香港 李郑村屋教拳 ；1962—1963年，在香港大埔道61号兴业大厦教徒；1963—1965年，在大角咀福 全街大生饭店 教拳，期间还在新蒲岗衍庆街教香港警务人员学拳；1965—1972年，返回通菜街住所，因年 事已高，只作 个别教授；1968年咏春体育会成立，该会集授徒、研究、交流咏春拳术于一体，是香港著名的武 术组织，叶问 曾在此主持过功夫班。经过20余年的苦心经营，叶氏门下桃李盈门，高徒辈出，著名的弟子有梁相 、骆耀、黄淳 樑、徐尚田、招允、卢文锦、梅逸、李小龙、叶准、叶正等，其中功夫巨星李小龙的影响最大。

　叶问教拳从不挂牌，也不卖招生广告，以便拥有选择收徒弟的主动权，只要学者有心学技，他就会 全力传授，绝 不厚此薄彼。他十分重视对初学者的基本训练，当传授小念头时，从正确手法、腰马配合到发力运用 ，从没有时间 限制，只有学者达到他的要求，他才会进一步教授新的课程。叶问教拳的另一特点就是量才而教，他 对每一个学者 的心理、个性、身材体魄、知识程度、文化修养以及吸收能力等先作充分了解，再根据每个学者的不 同需要，制订 相应的教授方法，以便学者更易学习和吸收。此外，他在教拳过程中极其注重黐手和自由搏击的练习 ，以培养学者 对咏春拳的兴趣和信心，再引导学者对咏春拳的法度和木人桩的研究。在教拳过程中，叶问还不断吸 收力学、几何 等现代科学知识来解释咏春拳的法度，加以融会贯通，成就中华武术之大成。


叶问就像一位使者，对咏春拳的普及和推广做出了杰出的贡献。在他逝世后，门下弟子一致推崇他为 咏春拳的一代 宗师，并继承先师遗志，将咏春的种子散播到世界各地。目前，全球有50多个国家和地区设有咏春 拳馆，有数百 万人在练习咏春拳，咏春拳成为世界上最流行的拳种之一。咏春拳的历史可谓是起于严咏春、衍于梁 赞、盛于叶问 。


三、“叶问堂”是佛山武术文化的历史见证

　佛山是叶问的故乡，也是咏春拳的根之所在。继叶问之后，一代咏春名师在这里崛起，活跃在佛山 武坛。为了纪 念叶问宗师，丰富佛山武术文化的内涵，使佛山逐步成为展示中国传统武术的重要窗口，佛山市博物 馆于2002 年11月建成“叶问堂”，展示叶问宗师的生平事迹、教拳典范、门下高徒，吸引了大量游客参观， 成为海内外咏 春弟子寻根拜祖、探求咏春真谛的重要场所，也为佛山武术旅游文化增添了新亮点，是佛山武术文化 的历史见证。

自2001年佛山“叶问堂”落成以来，叶问徒孙郭思牧师傅（早年跟随叶问之子叶准、叶正学习咏 春拳）每年都 会专程率领他的外国弟子回佛山寻根拜祖，一是让外国弟子参观叶问堂，了解咏春拳的历史和叶问宗 师的生平；二 是拜祭祖师爷叶问，向外国弟子传授中国“尊师重道”的良好美德；三是在现场与佛山咏春同仁一起 表演和交流拳 术，探讨咏春拳的真谛。2008年1月，佛山市博物馆又对“叶问堂”进行扩建，推出《香港叶问 宗师咏春拳系 展》，展示香港咏春拳的发展情况。以后，还将陆续推出世界各地叶问宗师咏春拳系展览，让咏春拳 一代宗师的精 神永在，为后世门人所敬仰。


参考文献：

[1]佛山市博物馆.佛山祖庙[M].北京：文物出版社，2005：93.

[2]佛山市人民政府侨务办公室[M].广州：广东科技出版社，1990：141.

It states clearly the Ip Man Tong was not created by Ip man sons and students but by the Fatshan Goverment and Museum to honour Ip Man.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Yuen Kay San and Ip Man chi sao invention-

I cant speak for yuen kay san, but in my lineage from Grandmaster Ip Ching to Sifu Samuel Kwok, we have poon sao, lok sao

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Elng5OGubs

In Poon Sao, its a controlling circular movement. The circles can be forward, backward, horizontally clockwise or horizontally anti clockwise. In fact, I was asked by a student who did mainland red boat wing chun did we specially add circular circling to Ip man Wing Chun teaching- No we did not. Ip Ching teaches this poon sao, as Sifu Kwok does as well.

In Lok Sao, we have been able to structually show why the elbow positions of tan bong fok uses natural body structure and angles to neutralise force.

But in sharing, going for proper training is still the best way to understand this.

[kung fu fighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6LSJtIR_Uc

Thanks for the clip Phil,

I personally prefer this method of doing chi sao over the luk sao platform, even though they are circling, if done correctly i can assure you that they would still have centerline intent, the center isn't as open as some of you might think. Im my humble opinion, this chi sao platform is a very efficient training tool which develops more skills/ attributes compared to the luk sao platform. But the luk sao platform is a better training tool to develop correct structure.

And I agree with Hendrik, it's not from Pan Nam linage, but it's found in all the older linages of wing chun such as Cho Ga, yuen Kay San, Kulo pien san, Vietnamese, and possibly Pao Fa Lien

Does anyone know which linage of Fujian white crane this is? it looks almost like another linage of wing chun

[Yoshiyahu]

Phil,

1, The following clip, starts 4.58/10.00 is exactly the type of old red boat Wing Chun Chi Sau which found in older Wing Chun family such as the Cho family and YKS.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QadGsuB9O5Q&feature=related





thanks hendrik this is the type of chi sau my sifu taught us.

It is different from Yip Mans Poon Sau....the term to define it can be Jao Sau which is running hand. Or huen sau which is circle hand.

We use this same structure for both two hands and one hand chi sau they have on the video!

[LoneTiger108]

1. Pan nam can do what they like on their line of wing Chun.

I was only suggesting what I have seen and heard about the modern Wushu developments of Yong Chun Quan in the mainland. My comment was not meant to be negative in any way.


2. To the contrary, because looking at the DNA. Hung kuen doesn't have the center line theory as white crane . Taiji doesn't either. Thus, white crane is called one of the major seed of tcma in the Chinese history.

Ok. I see. You have looked at the 'DNA' of Hung Kuen and Taichi. All variations and families of course? Through a microscope? lol!!

Hendrik, if you could tell me you have learnt or exchanged with a decent HK or TC Sifu I would see your point. But have you?? Because it doesn't sound like it...


3. Reality doesn't need to fit anyone's believe.

Reality?? Who's reality?? It is you who have said YKS and Ip Man invented the interactive platform we all see today in modern Wing Chun. I disagree completely.

Everything has always been there in the system, and perhaps they brought better practises to the forefront of training, but that's all imho. My Sigung learnt his mainland Wing Chun long before he exchanged with Ip Man in HK, and his 'rotation' had always been taught in the same manner as it is today.

I was also taught a similar method of interacting as the clips you post, but there are subtle differences in intent and seed rotation fme. The term poonsau gives it away actually, but I prefer Yoshis term 'Jaosau' for this particular clip.

I hope this helps to clear any misunderstandings you, or others may have concluded from my previous post. :confused:

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, if you could tell me you have learnt or exchanged with a decent HK or TC Sifu I would see your point. But have you?? Because it doesn't sound like it...:


My taichi push hand sifu Pan yi rou is the champion of Taiwan push hand competition. My siheng who study wing with me and explain hk to me is a famous hk grandmaster. my martial brother Gm Robert Chu of WCK is also a hk expert.

[LoneTiger108]

My taichi push hand sifu Pan yi rou is the champion of Taiwan push hand competition. My siheng who study wing with me and explain hk to me is a famous hk grandmaster. my martial brother Gm Robert Chu of WCK is also a hk expert.

Ok. That's what I was looking for. Thanks for sharing the little you have it's a great eye-opener because I really don't believe in all these superficial titles to be honest.

Famous Hung Kuen Grandmaster is... ? I'm sure he wont mind you telling, seeing he is your sihing in Wing Chun too ;)

Because a Grandmaster who says HK has no centre line ideas is no Grandmaster imhhho.

[Hendrik]

Ok. That's what I was looking for. Thanks for sharing the little you have it's a great eye-opener because I really don't believe in all these superficial titles to be honest.

Famous Hung Kuen Grandmaster is... ? I'm sure he wont mind you telling, seeing he is your sihing in Wing Chun too ;)

Because a Grandmaster who says HK has no centre line ideas is no Grandmaster imhhho.

Think anything you like. I am ok with your opinion.

[Minghequan]

Hendrik wrote:

My siheng who study wing with me and explain hk to me is a famous hk grandmaster.

Hendrik,

I believe that Lone Tiger 108 asked you a basic question:


Famous Hung Kuen Grandmaster is... ? I'm sure he wont mind you telling, seeing he is your sihing in Wing Chun too ;)

Care to answer the question please?

[LoneTiger108]

Hendrik,

I believe that Lone Tiger 108 asked you a basic question

Dude, I have asked many during my time here, and have rarely got a straight answer :rolleyes: but I don't mind.

I really do like Hendriks approach (sometimes!) it's just a shame he says things sometimes that are totally ridiculous fme and I see far too many Chinese/Oriental 'grand masters' claiming this and that, but still they have trouble answering some of my basic questions, let alone impressing me with their demonstrations or whatever!

We all need to 'see' and 'feel'. I know this. But we have never even 'seen' anything form Hendrik to highlight his physical capabilities. That would be a good start, but he isn't the ONLY one here that seems to be all talk either ;)

[Shadow_warrior8]

Having just come back from china, hongkong for Sigung Ip Chun's 88th Birthday

I would say this, I do believe Yuen Kay San and Ip man both research this lok sao platform created it and hence it is unique to their descendants.

But in china, many lineages, especially in guangzhou e.g yiu choi lineages use this platform now interchangebly of Poon/Lok.

No points for wondering why they would want to. It is known the structure of tan, bong, fok is a position of being able to be relaxed yet absorb force. It is not muscular tension that does it, its body mechanics.

E.g Try having a tan sao with elbows out, then tan sao elbows in. The earlier allows the power to go into the structure so you can use body force, the latter uses muscles and arm power to power a resistance.

Bong sao is able to do so, fok sao is able to do so with certain alignments as well.

The rooting force like Master Tsui Shong Tin, can be done various ways, without needing to rest on yongquan. Its not about pivoting front toe or back heel that allows rooting.
Just sharing the way I teach and was taught from the Ip Man lineage.

[imperialtaichi]

Hey Shadow,

I can't speak for whether IM or YKS invented ChiSau or not, but in our Kulo 22 line we do not have ChiSau as such; we are big on Poon Sau (sometimes my teacher calls it Huen Sau) and a number of partner drills. We practice ChiSau a bit so that in my teacher's words, "so that we can play with other Wing Chun guys."

Cheers,
John

[Hendrik]

Hey Shadow,

I can't speak for whether IM or YKS invented ChiSau or not, but in our Kulo 22 line we do not have ChiSau as such; we are big on Poon Sau (sometimes my teacher calls it Huen Sau) and a number of partner drills. We practice ChiSau a bit so that in my teacher's words, "so that we can play with other Wing Chun guys."

Cheers,
John


in Yik Kam lineage from the Cho family, the Poon Sau or Chi Sau has four type which is Huen, Kaam, Tiu, Taap. four type of circle.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Hi,

just to share

In the Ip ching lineage,
we use 4 cycles, as mentioned in the previous post and video,
inside rotation, outward rotation, inner rotation, outer rotation
And of course we use a lok platform as well.

@imperial taiji, seen alot of your videos and other kulo videos, I know how you guys roll. Nice...did some similar poon sao or aka chi sao loong when I did ban chung years back.

I think its a point to note, that both ip man sons took different things from the father. Only students who have followed both sons will know the difference.

thanks for all the sharing.