White Crane and Wing Chun

[Hendrik]

1, The following clip, starts 4.58/10.00 is exactly the type of old red boat Wing Chun Chi Sau which found in older Wing Chun family such as the Cho family and YKS.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QadGsuB9O5Q&feature=related




2, after this chi sau section, one can see the soft of White crane. that is similar to the crane playing with its wings. however, this is not the path Wing Chun's designer took.

Wing Chun took the Emei snake path where the finger and wrist part is tracing circle, where the other parts of the body limps/ joints is waving in an "S" shape. the tracing circle is what it is call the worm move, where the S shape trajectory of the body limps is called snake slide.

That is what a Worm move snake slide is about. that is the Snake engine of WCK.

Due to this different engine, the power, power generation and structure handling of WCK is different with the White Crane as shown in the clip.

So, it is more then just the intention or Nim Lik or triangle most of us think. the snake engine bring WCK into a dynamic structure platform.

So, for the set of WCK, if it is not practice with the snake engine, it will default back to White Crane.

[GlennR]

1, The following clip, starts 4.58/10.00 is exactly the type of old red boat Wing Chun Chi Sau which found in older Wing Chun family such as the Cho family and YKS.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QadGsuB9O5Q&feature=related




2, after this chi sau section, one can see the soft of White crane. that is similar to the crane playing with its wings. however, this is not the path Wing Chun's designer took.

Wing Chun took the Emei snake path where the finger and wrist part is tracing circle, where the other parts of the body limps/ joints is waving in an "S" shape. the tracing circle is what it is call the worm move, where the S shape trajectory of the body limps is called snake slide.

That is what a Worm move snake slide is about. that is the Snake engine of WCK.

Due to this different engine, the power, power generation and structure handling of WCK is different with the White Crane as shown in the clip.

So, it is more then just the intention or Nim Lik or triangle most of us think. the snake engine bring WCK into a dynamic structure platform.

So, for the set of WCK, if it is not practice with the snake engine, it will default back to White Crane.

the silence is deafening.....

[Minghequan]

How do you discuss something with someone who "Knows everything?" :rolleyes:

[Hendrik]

For anyone who is interested to see a real deal from the ancient China, here is one.
This is the chart of Emei 12 Zhuang the ancient art which is fused with White Crane to create the Siu Lin Tau art which later become Wing Chun Kuen.

This is the most top view or Chart of this ancient system which is preserve in the Beijing Museum today.

here are details under this chart.


1, the top row right above to the box is the 12 type of technics.

2, The box means the frame the 12 type of technics serving.
In side the box with the drawing of human, dragon....ect means the physical world we are living in.
the letter in the middle of the box stated Ying Yang explicit implicit....
The character in the left means application of the art. the character in the right means body /soul/ engine of the art.
The character at the bottom of the box means form, shape, material/physical.

3, the three character supporting the physical world box is the Jing Qi and Shen.

4, The box in the most bottom supporting the Jing Qi and Shen, is the Tatagatha's four wisdom. within the four wisdom box is the true emptiness wonderful existance. and in the very middle of this box is the Buddha nature.

5, there is a dotted line on the left connect the top row to the application of the middle box to the bottom box. this is the lively characteristics of the buddha nature.

6, there is a dotted line on the right connect the top row to the body of the middle box to the bottom box. this it the freedom characteristics of the buddha nature.




Thus, there are lots and lots of details how Martial art, Daoist practice, Buddhism fuse together and all the details in training to attain each type of kung fu. it is much much more complex then most in the west think. it is practically a technology and with details process.


It is this type of quality and details which I use as reference when doing research into the acient art.

Wing Chun Kuen got it's Zen and Qi from this art. in fact, the sealing off and close off, of Wing Chun is from this art. Wing Chun is not doing what most southern fist call the Lien Sil Dai Da or hit and cancle in the same time. but expert in Sealing off and close off. that is the trade mark of Wing Chun. seal off.....

There are details and details can be investigate and discuss. and sure, i know this because i have spend 30 years in the search among with lots of friends who help me.

[GETHIN]

Hi Hendrik, I can't get u tube here, but I agree with your posts - thanks for sharing the great chart. I studied white crane in Fuzhou a few years back, that included six months intensive chi sao (four hours every afternoon). Last year I was in Yongchun at the Weng Gong martial gym for some more crane.
As mentioned elsewhere on this forum, chi sao becomes like a game of speed chess after a while - great stuff.
Unable to find a White Crane master in Xi'an,I now study Yongchun quan (WC).
I was made aware of the connections between these styles years ago, but it is only since beginning to study WC that I realised just how close they actually are.
The similarities in applications, footwork and hand/wrist actions are much more than coincidental I think.

[Hendrik]

Great Job!

Best Wishes for your WC study in China!

[Ben Gash]

This is exactly the same sticky hands that everyone who doesn't do Wing Chun does :confused:

[Hendrik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN5Ix9hYYb4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX6pksjlghM

[guy b.]

1, The following clip, starts 4.58/10.00 is exactly the type of old red boat Wing Chun Chi Sau which found in older Wing Chun family such as the Cho family and YKS.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QadGsuB9O5Q&feature=related




2, after this chi sau section, one can see the soft of White crane. that is similar to the crane playing with its wings. however, this is not the path Wing Chun's designer took.

Wing Chun took the Emei snake path where the finger and wrist part is tracing circle, where the other parts of the body limps/ joints is waving in an "S" shape. the tracing circle is what it is call the worm move, where the S shape trajectory of the body limps is called snake slide.

That is what a Worm move snake slide is about. that is the Snake engine of WCK.

Due to this different engine, the power, power generation and structure handling of WCK is different with the White Crane as shown in the clip.

So, it is more then just the intention or Nim Lik or triangle most of us think. the snake engine bring WCK into a dynamic structure platform.

So, for the set of WCK, if it is not practice with the snake engine, it will default back to White Crane.

This clip is mostly crane power generation. They are using the hand touching part that you highlight for power path testing as well. It is all about SBG in crane. No chance that wing chun will default back to that if they don't do it. It isn't in the wing chun forms.

[Hendrik]

This clip is mostly crane power generation. They are using the hand touching part that you highlight for power path testing as well. It is all about SBG in crane. No chance that wing chun will default back to that if they don't do it. It isn't in the wing chun forms.

What is sbg?

IMHO

Wing chun defaults back to white crane because wing Chun is designed using the inch jin joints power of white crane fuse with the snake engine . If the snake engine is gone, then the inch Jin joint power as in wing Chun sun punch is always there to be defaulted.

[guy b.]

Power generation in crane is based on san chien (sarm bo gin). How can you talk about crane not knowing what this is? Bak mei, SPM, lung ying, white crane, 5 ancestor, Uechi Ryu and all the Okinawan karates are similar in this respect. Wing chun doesn't have it. Power generation in that art is a bit of a mystery. Something to do with the pole I think.

Here is a good example of crane short power:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVXEcU5VEz8&list=FLGgLYCMyEo5C1BYd4A52eHg&index=29&feature=plpp_video

[TenTigers]

Guy B., if WCK is descended from Wing Chun Bak Hok (Yung Chun Bai Hei) then it actually should have it, yes?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some Wing Chun guys do their SLT like a Sanchien...

[TenTigers]

Fukien Wing Chun Bak Hok has a samjien kuen, so it is related to the above styles as well.
Ngoh Mei snake techniques that Hendrik mentions shows many similarities to the SPM I was taught. I would be greatly interested in seeing some application of this.
It might shed some more light...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fukien Wing Chun Bak Hok has a samjien kuen, so it is related to the above styles as well.
Ngoh Mei snake techniques that Hendrik mentions shows many similarities to the SPM I was taught. I would be greatly interested in seeing some application of this.
It might shed some more light...

Well, don't hold your breath waiting for actual applications ( fighting).
Considering how much some southern systems have in common ( far more than they have different), its not inconceivable that they MAY have come from ONE original system.
What that systems was is irrelevant really, it;s enough that we can see that they share "it".
Of course with different masters customizing their systems it is logical that "IT" would "show" in different ways.

[TenTigers]

Nice video. I especially like the term, "dynamic structure."
The way you described being alive, although not in those terms was a good explanation. (when you need structure, it arises..) It is a very difficult concept to explain into words.
Very hard to explain verbally what really must be felt to be understood. (like trying to explain what chocolate tastes like)
Well done, Hendrik.

[guy b.]

Guy B., if WCK is descended from Wing Chun Bak Hok (Yung Chun Bai Hei) then it actually should have it, yes?

But it doesn't, does it?

[guy b.]

Some Wing Chun guys do their SLT like a Sanchien...

Do you have a clip? Does SNT have stepping? As far as I know the power chain in WC is different. If so what would be the point in san chien?

[Hendrik]

Power generation in crane is based on san chien (sarm bo gin). How can you talk about crane not knowing what this is? Bak mei, SPM, lung ying, white crane, 5 ancestor, Uechi Ryu and all the Okinawan karates are similar in this respect. Wing chun doesn't have it. Power generation in that art is a bit of a mystery. Something to do with the pole I think.

Here is a good example of crane short power:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVXEcU5VEz8&list=FLGgLYCMyEo5C1BYd4A52eHg&index=29&feature=plpp_video

1. Are you sure sam bo gin is a term used in classical white crane of fang chi niang?
2. Inch Jin joints power is the classical of white crane 1680.
3. What is a short power for you?

[guy b.]

IMHO

Wing chun defaults back to white crane because wing Chun is designed using the inch jin joints power of white crane fuse with the snake engine . If the snake engine is gone, then the inch Jin joint power as in wing Chun sun punch is always there to be defaulted.

I don't see how wing chun can have the "inch jin joint power" of crane without doing the crane power generation form. This is where the short power in crane comes from. Wing chun has no movement like it, apart from in the pole form.

[Hendrik]

Fukien Wing Chun Bak Hok has a samjien kuen, so it is related to the above styles as well.
Ngoh Mei snake techniques that Hendrik mentions shows many similarities to the SPM I was taught. I would be greatly interested in seeing some application of this.
It might shed some more light...

The distinction is NGO mei snake is based on totally loose body not a single tension.

[guy b.]

1. Are you sure sam bo gin is a term used in classical white crane of fang chi niang?
2. Inch Jin joints power is the classical of white crane 1680.
3. What is a short power for you?

White crane uses the term san chien. It is the same movement, same path of power generation.

I don't know anything about inch jin joints power in 1680. I assume it was developed according to formulated body movements, as it is today. I doubt that it magically appeared by believing in it.

The clip provided gives a good example of crane style short power/ tendon power. It is the production of large force over small distance. This is devoloped by working on sarn chien.

[Hendrik]

I don't see how wing chun can have the "inch jin joint power" of crane without doing the crane power generation form. This is where the short power in crane comes from. Wing chun has no movement like it, apart from in the pole form.


Please define what is short power for you.

IMHO
Sun punch wrist arm joints snap of Wing Chun is in fact derive from inch Jin joints power of white crane . It is a power generation technics relate can take different form.

[Hendrik]

White crane uses the term san chien. It is the same movement, same path of power generation.

I don't know anything about inch jin joints power in 1680. I assume it was developed according to formulated body movements, as it is today. I doubt that it magically appeared by believing in it.

The clip provided gives a good example of crane style short power/ tendon power. It is the production of large force over small distance. This is devoloped by working on sarn chien.


1. Ok. please use San Chen . I don't want to guess and try to keep it white crane focus.

2. Inch Jin joints power as the name said it is a type of joints power so the is no magical and unlimited to san chin set. As it said inch force joints power. So that is the focus.

3. For me Short power mean fast acceleration short distance generated power.

[guy b.]

Please define what is short power for you.

IMHO
Sun punch wrist arm joints snap of Wing Chun is in fact derive from inch Jin joints power of white crane . It is a power generation technics relate can take different form.

I just did define what short power is for me. I don't think I can make it any more simple. Which bit are you not understanding?

The arm joint linking in wing chun is a tiny bit of the power chain in crane. Linking the arm joints like that is present in all southern styles that I have seen, although some turn down the fist at the end due to phoenix eye shape. This is a basically insignificant part of the power chain. It is a bit of extra springiness, that is all. The big tendons are in the ribs, spine, hips, legs, calves. Power can be generated with rise and fall as shown in the clip, splitting, counter rotation, fall and rise. It is always a load/release utilising the elasticity of tendons.

[Vajramusti]

Wing chun - no longer overtly follows the snake and the crane- aspects of them were extracted and synthesized into a distinctive style a long time ago...atleast in Ip man's wing chun. You can't create milk from clarified butter.
Inch power even zero inch power is there in some lines.
There are of course many different kinds of wing chun these days. A few have dynamic tension in basic movements...but good Ip man wing chun minimizes muscle tension and has lots of footwork
with an united body.No sbj and no sanchin breathing.

[guy b.]

1. Ok. please use San Chen . I don't want to guess and try to keep it white crane focus.

2. Inch Jin joints power as the name said it is a type of joints power so the is no magical and unlimited to san chin set. As it said inch force joints power. So that is the focus.

3. For me Short power mean fast acceleration short distance generated power.

Lol, you don't have a clue what you are talking about, do you? For you short power = power over a short distance? No **** Sherlock.

San chien is a form associated with the development of short power. There are others. It specifically cultivates rib and spine. It is rise and fall.

All short power utilises a load phase where tension is placed on tendons and a release phase where the tendon elasticity is expolited to give back what was loaded along the power chain and out of the fist. Links in the chain (like your arm links) are exploited to add to total expressed force but the majority comes from the initial load/unload or large connective tissues.

[guy b.]

Wing chun - no longer overtly follows the snake and the crane- aspects of them were extracted and synthesized into a distinctive style a long time ago...atleast in Ip man's wing chun. You can't create milk from clarified butter.
Inch power even zero inch power is there in some lines.
There are of course many different kinds of wing chun these days. A few have dynamic tension in basic movements...but good Ip man wing chun minimizes muscle tension and has lots of footwork
with an united body.No sbj and no sanchin breathing.

Yes I know, but this is where the short power comes from in crane. Where does it come from in wing chun? Where is the tendon load/unload?

I think that Alan Orr's wing chun uses a sink/rise type power generation, rising from calf to hip to chest to elbow and they cultivate this through their SNT form (sinking and rising with the hand movements). But I don't think most other wing chun does this, and it is a crude power, not especially springy or short.

A lot of wing chun I have seen uses what they call "structure" (i.e. they align the skeleton along the force vector). This is a dead power, not springy short power. What wing chun calls inch or short power is usually just arm ging, in my experience. This is nothing.

[Hendrik]

Lol, you don't have a clue what you are talking about, do you? For you short power = power over a short distance? No **** Sherlock.

San chien is a form associated with the development of short power. There are others. It specifically cultivates rib and spine. It is rise and fall.

All short power utilises a load phase where tension is placed on tendons and a release phase where the tendon elasticity is expolited to give back what was loaded along the power chain and out of the fist.

Links in the chain (like your arm links) are exploited to add to total expressed force but the majority comes from the initial load/unload or large connective tissues.


I can accept your point of view.

1.However, I am talking specific inch Jin joints power of whit crane relation with wing Chun.

Also, short or inch power or as call chuck /tuin keng in wing chun or fast power is a fast accelerate type of power generated in a split of second , needs only inch in trajectory distance. This definition is common in tcma.


2. The power you describe above is long and slower type for me. Long because exactly as you describe, there is load phase and release phase. and due to these phases delay and bulky could be intercepted. That is exactly why wing Chun doesn't go down this path. Because it is a different type of art.

3. The links in chain can deliver a massive impulse without the bulky rooting. It is a dynamic structure flow which is wing Chun and which is the reason for fusing emei snake technology.


Ps. If you want to discuss, could you stop all those person attact sentence ? I have noticed you are doing personal attact for past two posts. I will not reply if this type of posting continuous. In fact you are limited in your experience in power generation and has not develop any advance type , let me tell you why, it is ignorance to state power comes from cultivation of rips and spine. It cannot be. In fact it is ignorance to get power from spine. Even in the ancient classical of white crane power generation it is not it.

So, I hope you stop this type of personal attack where you yourself have a narrow view on the subject.

[TenTigers]

The distinction is NGO mei snake is based on totally loose body not a single tension.
I agree. The SPM I train in does not have single tension, but loose body, The power is released in a whip rather than a release of tension.
Saying release of tension implies that there is some point that there is a holding of tension.

[Hendrik]

I agree. The SPM I train in does not have single tension, but loose body, The power is released in a whip rather than a release of tension.
Saying release of tension implies that there is some point that there is a holding of tension.

Interesting. Do you have a clip example on your SPM?

[guy b.]

I can accept your point of view.

1.However, I am talking specific inch Jin joints power of whit crane relation with wing Chun.

Also, short or inch power or as call chuck /tuin keng in wing chun or fast power is a fast accelerate type of power generated in a split of second , needs only inch in trajectory distance. This definition is common in tcma.


2. The power you describe above is long and slower type for me. Long because exactly as you describe, there is load phase and release phase. and due to these phases delay and bulky could be intercepted. That is exactly why wing Chun doesn't go down this path. Because it is a different type of art.

3. The links in chain can deliver a massive impulse without the bulky rooting. It is a dynamic structure flow which is wing Chun and which is the reason for fusing emei snake technology.


Ps. If you want to discuss, could you stop all those person attact sentence ? I have noticed you are doing personal attact for past two posts. I will not reply if this type of posting continuous. In fact you are limited in your experience in power generation and has not develop any advance type , let me tell you why, it is ignorance to state power comes from cultivation of rips and spine. It cannot be. In fact it is ignorance to get power from spine. Even in the ancient classical of white crane power generation it is not it.

So, I hope you stop this type of personal attack where you yourself have a narrow view on the subject.


Hendrik I am only responding to your arrogant style of questioning, which you continue in this post. My first reply was perfectly factual as you can see.

1. Inch power, short power, fast power. Without load/unload there is no special power. You can push off the ground, sure, like a boxer does. But that is no faster than loading and unloading tendons. You aren't describing anything here. You are just saying that it is fast. I assure you that the short power in crane is a tendon power, like in the clip I posted. This can be very quick and very short with practice.

2. See the clip for examples of the expression of crane power. This is a person still learning the art but he has the mechanics down pretty well. The rise fall is very good. You can't just summon power from nowhere. There isn't any particular power in your joints that will produce significant damage to an opponent. You need to either be moving, pushing off the ground, or loading a spring in your body to produce power. Moving joints quickly with no spring will produce an arm punch.

3. This means nothing to me.

4. Rib bone power is a useful springy link in any chain. Arts like SPM and Bak mei take this to a very high level. Crane uses it less but does use it because the san chien cultivates it automatically. Whipping open or closed the ribs and flexing or curving the back along the vecor line of force can add much to any blow, certainly more than the weaker arm links because of bigger and springier connective tissue. Of course main power comes off ground from leg through hip.

[Hendrik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NKROC5mS1c

[guy b.]

I don't know what you want me to look at in this clip unless you tell me.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As the old saying goes, 100 styles, 100 san chien....
The rib power ( or however you want to put it) is in white crane, in Bak Mei, in every version of SPM, in dragon fist, etc, etc.
Inch power is (in some form or another) in almost every southern system too.
Southern systems that "fight with their hands up in front", all relt and develop short power, whether they call it "inch", "scared" or "shocked" or whatever, it all is the same thing:
Maximum explosive force over the shortest distance from a (typically) "extended bridge".

[Hendrik]

As the old saying goes, 100 styles, 100 san chien....
The rib power ( or however you want to put it) is in white crane, in Bak Mei, in every version of SPM, in dragon fist, etc, etc.
Inch power is (in some form or another) in almost every southern system too.
Southern systems that "fight with their hands up in front", all relt and develop short power, whether they call it "inch", "scared" or "shocked" or whatever, it all is the same thing:
Maximum explosive force over the shortest distance from a (typically) "extended bridge".


Compare the following and see are they the same ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVXEcU5VEz8&list=FLGgLYCMyEo5C1BYd4A52eHg&index=29&feature=plpp_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NKROC5mS1c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAiAnMFtCxU

[TenTigers]

Interesting. Do you have a clip example on your SPM?
y'know, I searched youtube, and for the life of me, I couldn't find a good example, and then you posted the clip. He plays his form pretty much to the way we do, except that our movement is more continuous, one never ending flow (when done right, at least)

[Vajramusti]

As the old saying goes, 100 styles, 100 san chien....
The rib power ( or however you want to put it) is in white crane, in Bak Mei, in every version of SPM, in dragon fist, etc, etc.
Inch power is (in some form or another) in almost every southern system too.
Southern systems that "fight with their hands up in front", all relt and develop short power, whether they call it "inch", "scared" or "shocked" or whatever, it all is the same thing:

((the engines for developing the power and the links for delivering the power in good Ip man wing chun could be different from the other southern hands))


Maximum explosive force over the shortest distance from a (typically) "extended bridge".

(("Extended bridge-- there can be differences in details))

[sanjuro_ronin]

Compare the following and see are they the same ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NKROC5mS1c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAiAnMFtCxU

Neither shows it because neither is doing it in a practical way.
One is doing a form, in which case the best one can see is the hint of power in terms of structure and fluidity.
The other is doing WORSE because they are "curtailing" the power for demo purposes, turning what should be explosive strikes into "slaps" for "safeties sake" ?
If I had to choose one I would choose the form, but unless one can see that demoed in a practical manner one can only ASSUME if what is being shown can be translated to practical and effective issuing of power.

[sanjuro_ronin]

(("Extended bridge-- there can be differences in details))

And the devil is in the details.

[Hendrik]

y'know, I searched youtube, and for the life of me, I couldn't find a good example, and then you posted the clip. He plays his form pretty much to the way we do, except that our movement is more continuous, one never ending flow (when done right, at least)

How is compare with this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw0Ckc1YtT8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6mDkP9mjBU

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_LgnH2jw5M&feature=related

There used to be a clip of GM Ip Chee doing some "rib power" drills but I can't find it on youtube.
I think it was the "swimming dragons" form but I am not sure.

[Vajramusti]

And the devil is in the details.
------------------------------------

Fer sure.

[Hendrik]

For me, These are different arts in. Tcma. Different power generation.



This one says up down, what is up down for you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVXEcU5VEz8&list=FLGgLYCMyEo5C1BYd4A52eHg&index=29&feature=plpp_video





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6mDkP9mjBU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NKROC5mS1c

[sanjuro_ronin]

------------------------------------

Fer sure.

Short power, ANY power, is tailored to HOW it is expressed in practicality.
One can argue that there is no wrong way of issuing short power, just different ways of expressing it.
The wing chun method would be dependent on the training AND the goal,same goes for the white crane or the SPM or the dragon or the Pak Mei method.
Very few would doubt that Tyson had short power, but it was expressed as a wing chum practioner would do it, nor a white crane because Tyson was doing anything but HIS style of boxing.

[Hendrik]

Short power, ANY power, is tailored to HOW it is expressed in practicality.

One can argue that there is no wrong way of issuing short power, just different ways of expressing it.

The wing chun method would be dependent on the training AND the goal,same goes for the white crane or the SPM or the dragon or the Pak Mei method.

Very few would doubt that Tyson had short power, but it was expressed as a wing chum practioner would do it, nor a white crane because Tyson was doing anything but HIS style of boxing.


Seriously, in my undertanding, there is a clear definition of short power in tcma not up for our own interpretation.

The Issuing of short power is, even short power has different variation based on different platforms such as hard bow as ip chee Sam Bo ging or soft bow as lee kong white crane above, still it is clearly define. Otherwise, one don't have it because one don't know what it is and do not know the process to develop it.


Wing Chun short or inch power is joints power specific and highly penetrating sending impulse without the bulky San chin or Sam Bo ging frame. That is for sure.

[Vajramusti]

Short power, ANY power, is tailored to HOW it is expressed in practicality.
One can argue that there is no wrong way of issuing short power, just different ways of expressing it.
The wing chun method would be dependent on the training AND the goal,same goes for the white crane or the SPM or the dragon or the Pak Mei method.
Very few would doubt that Tyson had short power, but it was expressed as a wing chum practioner would do it, nor a white crane because Tyson was doing anything but HIS style of boxing.
-------------------------------------------------

True. The problem with the Tyson route is that it is difficult to keep on developing with aging,
impact on the brain , dealing with fresh younger people doing the same thing, dealing with much bigger people(Lennox Lewis etc).

[Hendrik]

Ten tiger,

For your information, the lee kong white crane above is a soft bow art. The spm is a hard bow art. The other San chin is a very rigid hard bow art. These are different arts.

One key very easy to find out what is what is how is one sink qi to lower aps.

So, as for your spm, how do you handle the qi down that tell the platform story very clearly. As for fluid, soft, whip really doesn't not tell the story.


for me,
For example, this person might look soft and fluid, but for me , he doesn't have qi down to lower aps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_LgnH2jw5M&feature=related



The following person is dead hard and forcing everything , also no qi down to lower aps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVXEcU5VEz8&list=FLGgLYCMyEo5C1BYd4A52eHg&index=29&feature=plpp_video



Without qi down one has only surface Kung fu. Not much development.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Seriously, in my undertanding, there is a clear definition of short power in tcma not up for our own interpretation.

The Issuing of short power is, even short power has different variation based on different platforms such as hard bow as ip chee Sam Bo ging or soft bow as lee kong white crane above, still it is clearly define. Otherwise, one don't have it because one don't know what it is and do not know the process to develop it.


Wing Chun short or inch power is joints power specific and highly penetrating sending impulse without the bulky San chin or Sam Bo ging frame. That is for sure.

I agree that the issuing AND the expressing of short power is clearly defined but what I am saying is that it is clearly defined within each system AND it can only be seen when expressed in practical terms.
The short power of white crane ( choose a system) is not the short power of Wing Chun or of SPM, but that doesn't mean that THEIR short power ISN'T short power.
And what I am saying is that you can't see the short power in a demo or form, it must be expressed in reality and in practical terms ie: You must hit something with it.

[Hendrik]

I agree that the issuing AND the expressing of short power is clearly defined but what I am saying is that it is clearly defined within each system AND it can only be seen when expressed in practical terms.
The short power of white crane ( choose a system) is not the short power of Wing Chun or of SPM, but that doesn't mean that THEIR short power ISN'T short power.
And what I am saying is that you can't see the short power in a demo or form, it must be expressed in reality and in practical terms ie: You must hit something with it.


1. Agree, different art has different way to satisfy the short power needs.

2. Short power , its type, can be detected even in doing form if one knows where to look. All short power has to do with acceleration, if the body frame limit acceleration, and thus, one knows what is the limitation of different frame and structure. San chin as in the above up and down clip does not be able to delive short power As in karate. Thus, white crane introduce shock body mechanics. So, no, it is not limps and tendon....it is more then those.

[TenTigers]

How is compare with this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw0Ckc1YtT8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6mDkP9mjBU

Lee Kong-Sifu's method is much closer. Chow Gar, and Wong Yuk-Gong's Jook Lum are much harder than Lam's. Which is a mystery, as Lam and Wong both studied under Chung Yel Jung and Lee Siem-Si. Lam's Kwangsai Jook Lum Ji Tong Long is very evasive, softer (but strikes hard) and elusive. The hands are like two snakes, each with a mind of its own, continuously coiling, running, leaking, and striking. The body is like a snake, coiling, rippling,twisting, and the footwork is also serpentine, making much use of the circle step.
I catch alot of flak for saying this from my "Uncles," but I really don't see it as a mantis at all, but a snake. There are many different "oral histories" of the system, but some say it was never a mantis system, but took the name to disguise its origins. It was called Chu-Gar, after the royal family which fled from the Manchu invasion.
Starting to make sense to me...

[TenTigers]

1. Agree, different art has different way to satisfy the short power needs.

2. Short power , its type, can be detected even in doing form if one knows where to look.

It's hard to see or define, as short power can be issued at any part along the power chain.
You can have it issue from the beginning, middle, or end of the chain, so to simply watch a person doing a form cannot really do it justice, but yes, if you know where to look...

[Hendrik]

It's hard to see or define, as short power can be issued at any part along the power chain.
You can have it issue from the beginning, middle, or end of the chain, so to simply watch a person doing a form cannot really do it justice, but yes, if you know where to look...

I have just edit my post please take a look.

[TenTigers]

Thus, white crane introduce shock body mechanics. So, no, it is not limps and tendon....it is more then those.

good point. Only you really need to be in the system for a while before you can recognize this.
I remember seeing a video of Gin Foon Mark, I had been training in MA for over 20 yrs at the time, but not yet exposed to SPM, or the higher levels of Hung Kuen either.
I wasn't impressed. I really had no idea what I was looking at, and in my eyes, it didn't really look like much more than waving of hands.
Now, I watch him move and I understand.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lee Kong-Sifu's method is much closer. Chow Gar, and Wong Yuk-Gong's Jook Lum are much harder than Lam's. Which is a mystery, as Lam and Wong both studied under Chung Yel Jung and Lee Siem-Si. Lam's Kwangsai Jook Lum Ji Tong Long is very evasive, softer (but strikes hard) and elusive. The hands are like two snakes, each with a mind of its own, continuously coiling, running, leaking, and striking. The body is like a snake, coiling, rippling,twisting, and the footwork is also serpentine, making much use of the circle step.
I catch alot of flak for saying this from my "Uncles," but I really don't see it as a mantis at all, but a snake. There are many different "oral histories" of the system, but some say it was never a mantis system, but took the name to disguise its origins. It was called Chu-Gar, after the royal family which fled from the Manchu invasion.
Starting to make sense to me...

More dragon than snake...

[sanjuro_ronin]

We will have to agree to disagree on being able to "see" short power in a form.
One may be able to feel it but in a form all one can see is if the "signs" are there and even then there is no guarantee one can express that power in practical terms ( as is the case with far too many practioners it seems).

[TenTigers]

Ten tiger,

For your information, the lee kong white crane above is a soft bow art. The spm is a hard bow art. The other San chin is a very rigid hard bow art. These are different arts.

One key very easy to find out what is what is how is one sink qi to lower aps.

So, as for your spm, how do you handle the qi down that tell the platform story very clearly. As for fluid, soft, whip really doesn't not tell the story.


for me,
For example, this person might look soft and fluid, but for me , he doesn't have qi down to lower aps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_LgnH2jw5M&feature=related


ah, missed this one.
Please note, that was many years ago. You should see him now.:cool:

[TenTigers]

More dragon than snake...
ahh, a dragon is only a snake with claws...:)

The reason I say snake (although none of the hakka systems are all just one animal)
is that Chung Yel Jung was nicknamed "The Poison Snake."
The staff is known in some circles as The Poison Snake Staff.
The butterfly knives are very serpentine, always coiling, moving, slicing, winding in and out of each other.
The hands are often referred to as snakes.Always moving, coiling, striking. None of the strikes come in straight, but at non-linear trajectories.
The mindset is that of a snake, calm, cold-blooded, focused.
The strikes are all to acu-points,"poison hand," hallmark of the snake system.
IT'S A SNAKE, I TELL YOU!!! MARK MY WORDS!

[sanjuro_ronin]

ahh, a dragon is only a snake with claws...:)

The reason I say snake (although none of the hakka systems are all just one animal)
is that Chung Yel Jung was nicknamed "The Poison Snake."
The staff is known in some circles as The Poison Snake Staff.
The butterfly knives are very serpentine, always coiling, moving, slicing, winding in and out of each other.
The hands are often referred to as snakes.Always moving, coiling, striking. None of the strikes come in straight, but at non-linear trajectories.
The mindset is that of a snake, calm, cold-blooded, focused.
The strikes are all to acu-points,"poison hand," hallmark of the snake system.
IT'S A SNAKE, I TELL YOU!!! MARK MY WORDS!

Quit yelling you old ****.
I agree.
Sheesh, some people...

[YouKnowWho]

We will have to agree to disagree on being able to "see" short power in a form.
One may be able to feel it but in a form all one can see is if the "signs" are there and even then there is no guarantee one can express that power in practical terms ( as is the case with far too many practioners it seems).

I agree with sanjuro_ronin that Fajin into the thin air can be misleading. When you apply force on object, that object will give you counter force. Your body structure has to be strong enough to be able to take that counter force back. Without using object to Fajin into it, it's impossible to tell whether or not a person's body structure is trained to take that "counter force".

Here is a "short power" that applied on an resistence opponent. I have done this so many times. I know the result depend on

- my opponent's body weight,
- his low or high center of gravity, and
- whether I had low back pain that day or not.

You just can't see that in "solo" training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KK4gBstnYs&list=UU-0Xy-GClT1q4QYhuGBJQaQ&feature=plcp

[Hendrik]

good point. Only you really need to be in the system for a while before you can recognize this.
I remember seeing a video of Gin Foon Mark, I had been training in MA for over 20 yrs at the time, but not yet exposed to SPM, or the higher levels of Hung Kuen either.
I wasn't impressed. I really had no idea what I was looking at, and in my eyes, it didn't really look like much more than waving of hands.
Now, I watch him move and I understand.

Yes. Agree.

[Hendrik]

We will have to agree to disagree on being able to "see" short power in a form.
One may be able to feel it but in a form all one can see is if the "signs" are there and even then there is no guarantee one can express that power in practical terms ( as is the case with far too many practioners it seems).

One can see the boundary Condition .

One can guarantee it can be expressed it if one has the conditioning because that is the way they evolve their body.

As for how effective and how deep one can goes that depend on the depth of development.


But most do not have it . Same with the taiji guys. They just mimic moves and that also can be identify. Thus, I ask the question of how does one sink qi to lower abs? If that cannot be answered they don't have it. Can one notice if qi sink in the demo? Yes. If one can do it one can see in others action.

[Hendrik]

I agree with sanjuro_ronin that Fajin into the thin air can be misleading. When you apply force on object, that object will give you counter force. Your body structure has to be strong enough to be able to take that counter force back. Without using object to Fajin into it, it's impossible to tell whether or not a person's body structure is trained to take that "counter force".

Here is a "short power" that applied on an resistence opponent. I have done this so many times. I know the result depend on

- my opponent's body weight,
- his low or high center of gravity, and
- whether I had low back pain that day or not.

You just can't see that in "solo" training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KK4gBstnYs&list=UU-0Xy-GClT1q4QYhuGBJQaQ&feature=plcp


You clip is not short power but a bigger body crash into a smaller body brute .

Knowing the engine knowing the car. One doesn't need to race to have a good engine.

[Vajramusti]

good point. Only you really need to be in the system for a while before you can recognize this.
I remember seeing a video of Gin Foon Mark, I had been training in MA for over 20 yrs at the time, but not yet exposed to SPM, or the higher levels of Hung Kuen either.
I wasn't impressed. I really had no idea what I was looking at, and in my eyes, it didn't really look like much more than waving of hands.
Now, I watch him move and I understand.
--------------------------------------------------------
My now apparently deceased friend was a long time student of Mark sifu and shared a private video
of Mark sifu's biu motions while stepping. In my judgement and certainly butressed by my friends first hand knowledge. Mark sifu had/has explosive short power and superb fingers.


joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree with sanjuro_ronin that Fajin into the thin air can be misleading. When you apply force on object, that object will give you counter force. Your body structure has to be strong enough to be able to take that counter force back. Without using object to Fajin into it, it's impossible to tell whether or not a person's body structure is trained to take that "counter force".

Here is a "short power" that applied on an resistence opponent. I have done this so many times. I know the result depend on

- my opponent's body weight,
- his low or high center of gravity, and
- whether I had low back pain that day or not.

You just can't see that in "solo" training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KK4gBstnYs&list=UU-0Xy-GClT1q4QYhuGBJQaQ&feature=plcp

Exactly.
Because of our common background I think you and I tend to agree on many things and you as a grappler and me with some grappling experience, we tend to be very "practical demonstration" oriented.
In other words, the only true test of ANY kung is practical application.

[sanjuro_ronin]

--------------------------------------------------------
My now apparently deceased friend was a long time student of Mark sifu and shared a private video
of Mark sifu's biu motions while stepping. In my judgement and certainly butressed by my friends first hand knowledge. Mark sifu had/has explosive short power and superb fingers.


joy chaudhuri

So did your friend ( I hazzard to call him that (friend) because I was not previlaged to know him that well but he certainly made a lasting impression on me).

[sanjuro_ronin]

You clip is not short power but a bigger body crash into a smaller body brute .

Knowing the engine knowing the car. One doesn't need to race to have a good engine.

But one MUST race the car to see if it can perform.
Knowing the car and knowing how it performs and how well are two very different things.

[Hendrik]

But one MUST race the car to see if it can perform.
Knowing the car and knowing how it performs and how well are two very different things.

Racing car, engine testing, for engine designer is a common job.

The issue is most don't know the different between a bicycle and Porsche . And keep thinking racing. What to race?

Most people just take for granted on what their physical do to applied on what they do as it is, and have no engine development. So, they will say, short power but do exactly what the general public does just label it differently.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Racing car, engine testing, for engine designer is a common job.

The issue is most don't know the different between a bicycle and Porsche . And keep thinking racing. What to race?

I only know two design engineers, one works for Toyota and the other Honda and they BOTH test the engines they design.
The best engineers are those that have BOTH the theory and the practice.

[guy b.]

Compare the following and see are they the same ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVXEcU5VEz8&list=FLGgLYCMyEo5C1BYd4A52eHg&index=29&feature=plpp_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NKROC5mS1c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAiAnMFtCxU

Power generation is obviously the same. The "masters" are holding back and trying not to show. The guy learning by himself if showing to full extent that he is capable.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Power generation is obviously the same. The "masters" are holding back and trying not to show. The guy learning by himself if showing to full extent that he is capable.

Guy does make a valid point and one that we all know is prevelant and that is the concsious "holding back" of many teachers when they demo.
All the more reason to evaluate based on practical demonstrations because you can't "fake" those.

[guy b.]

How is compare with this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw0Ckc1YtT8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6mDkP9mjBU

same ****, although lol at who you are comparing.

[guy b.]

Seriously, in my undertanding, there is a clear definition of short power in tcma not up for our own interpretation.

The Issuing of short power is, even short power has different variation based on different platforms such as hard bow as ip chee Sam Bo ging or soft bow as lee kong white crane above, still it is clearly define. Otherwise, one don't have it because one don't know what it is and do not know the process to develop it.


Wing Chun short or inch power is joints power specific and highly penetrating sending impulse without the bulky San chin or Sam Bo ging frame. That is for sure.

The thing is, you don't say anything. It is like you don't know anything. San chien is not bulky when it becomes useful. This is nonsense. Similarly "joints power specific" leads me to think you are concentrating on the pathetic arm punch "ging" demostaratewd by so many wing chun lineages. For any power to be significant it needs to involve the whole body. "short" power does this but skips links and uses tendon loading and spring power to be faster than whole body involvement. It is a trained shortcutl easily described. F or you to claim similar for wing chun (without sarm chiem) you will need to describe in detail rather than using irrelevant flowery language that means nothing.

[guy b.]

1. Agree, different art has different way to satisfy the short power needs.

2. Short power , its type, can be detected even in doing form if one knows where to look. All short power has to do with acceleration, if the body frame limit acceleration, and thus, one knows what is the limitation of different frame and structure. San chin as in the above up and down clip does not be able to delive short power As in karate. Thus, white crane introduce shock body mechanics. So, no, it is not limps and tendon....it is more then those.

The up and down clip does deliver short power, I assure you. Up and down is a beginners route to load/unload necessary for short power generation. Various karate styles also cultivate short power quite effectively, notably uechi and goju ryus. Merely moving the linked joints fast is not short power.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The up and down clip does deliver short power, I assure you. Up and down is a beginners route to load/unload necessary for short power generation. Various karate styles also cultivate short power quite effectively, notably uechi and goju ryus. Merely moving the linked joints fast is not short power.

A variation exists even in TKD ( the "sine wave" or whatever it's called).
Again, short power can be seen in its many "manifestations" in almost every MA.
No one systems has a "monopoly" on it and to say that one systems is wrong or incorrect just because it's not done 100% like anothers is wrong.

[YouKnowWho]

You clip is not short power but a bigger body crash into a smaller body brute.

You only look from a pure "striker" point of view.

Short power can be generated in many different ways from different part of the body. To be able to vibrate your body like a fish is very high level skill. It's very difficult to develop because your body is not like fish. If you have that ability, nobody can take you down. You can prevent your opponent from generating power in the early stage.

Here is a simple example. In clinching range, the moment that you detect your opponent has intention to punch you with his right hand, the moment that you give a short power on his right shoulder. The "short power" has a lot of value in "defense" other than just pure "offense".

[YouKnowWho]

Exactly.
Because of our common background I think you and I tend to agree on many things and you as a grappler and me with some grappling experience, we tend to be very "practical demonstration" oriented.
In other words, the only true test of ANY kung is practical application.
I truly don't see any value about "Fajin into the thin air." :confused:

This forum has almost turned into a WC forum. For some unknown reason, WC guys love to start their own threads such as:

- WC footwork,
- WC kicks,
- WC elbow strike,
- WC closing gap,
- ...

I'm glad that this thread is in "Southern Chinese Kung Fu" session. The "short power" is not only used by "strikers".

[Minghequan]

The thing is, you don't say anything. It is like you don't know anything. San chien is not bulky when it becomes useful. This is nonsense. Similarly "joints power specific" leads me to think you are concentrating on the pathetic arm punch "ging" demostaratewd by so many wing chun lineages. For any power to be significant it needs to involve the whole body. "short" power does this but skips links and uses tendon loading and spring power to be faster than whole body involvement. It is a trained shortcutl easily described. F or you to claim similar for wing chun (without sarm chiem) you will need to describe in detail rather than using irrelevant flowery language that means nothing.


You have just discovered Hendrik's mode of operation : "say a lot about nothing", try to bamboozle others with strange references that go nowhere!

[TenTigers]

You have just discovered Hendrik's mode of operation : "say a lot about nothing", try to bamboozle others with strange references that go nowhere!
oh shush, you! Hendrik actually agreed with me. Don't you go startin' no trouble.
Gau Si Gwun!
wait...did I just say Hendrik agreed with me?:eek:
OK, WHO ARE YOU, AND WHAT DID YOU DO WITH HENDRIK!!??

:D

[Minghequan]

Wow! Hendrik agreed with you!

Wait, is that the earth I feel trembling?

What a truly momentous occasion for the world of Kung Fu!

[YouKnowWho]

Wow! Hendrik agreed with you!

I try not to keep my hope too high. If I don't expect it, it won't bother me if I don't get it.

[TenTigers]

I try not to keep my hope too high. If I don't expect it, it won't bother me if I don't get it.
patience, Grasshopper. Your time will come...

[Subitai]

This is exactly the same sticky hands that everyone who doesn't do Wing Chun does :confused:

Haha, dude you make me laugh so hard. I love this!!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I truly don't see any value about "Fajin into the thin air." :confused:

This forum has almost turned into a WC forum. For some unknown reason, WC guys love to start their own threads such as:

- WC footwork,
- WC kicks,
- WC elbow strike,
- WC closing gap,
- ...

I'm glad that this thread is in "Southern Chinese Kung Fu" session. The "short power" is not only used by "strikers".

Indeed, while "short power" was made famous by strikers ( or something silly like that) the ability to generate explosive force is, perhaps/arguably, even more crucial in grappling.
One can use it to apply a sudden lock or throw or to avoid a lock or throw.
Not to mention using it to strike WHILE holding on.
I recall I once had a guy by the lapels while bouncing, I was juts holding him there when he started to "fidgit" and by that I mean try to hit me.
Without releasing my grip I "short hooked" him in the jaw ( those cute little 45 deg uppercuts) and he was much more agreeable after that.

[Dragonzbane76]

Agree short power is very evident in grappling. Burst or lunging for control and gnp.

[Hendrik]

Indeed, while "short power" was made famous by strikers ( or something silly like that) the ability to generate explosive force is, perhaps/arguably, even more crucial in grappling.
One can use it to apply a sudden lock or throw or to avoid a lock or throw.
Not to mention using it to strike WHILE holding on.
I recall I once had a guy by the lapels while bouncing, I was juts holding him there when he started to "fidgit" and by that I mean try to hit me.
Without releasing my grip I "short hooked" him in the jaw ( those cute little 45 deg uppercuts) and he was much more agreeable after that.

Care to share more on,
What is short power for you?
What do you mean by bouncing, fidget, and short hooked?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Care to share more on,
What is short power for you?
What do you mean by bouncing, fidget, and short hooked?

I meant that when I was bouncing ( security work in a night club).
By fidget I mean he tried to hit me while I was holding him ( my attention was elsewhere I admit).
By "short hook" I mean what I described:
My hand was on his lapel ( bunched up around his neck area) and from there I drilled him with a "short explosive" 45 deg uppercut that made him more cooperative.

[YouKnowWho]

Indeed, while "short power" was made famous by strikers ( or something silly like that) the ability to generate explosive force is, perhaps/arguably, even more crucial in grappling.
I believe the "short power" is used much more often in the grappling than in the striking.

When you detect that your opponent intends to spin, you give him a bit "shaking (short power)", you can prevent a lot of problems. This is why when 2 good wrestlers are wrestling against each other, nobody can make his moves work because

- If you move, I shake you.
- If I move, you shake me.

nobody can generate initial speed to start his move. Your move will be stopped before you even start it.

It's easier to do this in the short clinch range. It may be hard to do this in the normal striking range. The path is just too long to stop your opponent's punch by shaking on his shoulder, or stop his kick by shaking on his upper leg. Also in striking range, your Tinjin won't be as good as when you are in grappling range.

[Hendrik]

I meant that when I was bouncing ( security work in a night club).
By fidget I mean he tried to hit me while I was holding him ( my attention was elsewhere I admit).
By "short hook" I mean what I described:
My hand was on his lapel ( bunched up around his neck area) and from there I drilled him with a "short explosive" 45 deg uppercut that made him more cooperative.

Thank you and appreciate!

Understood.

[Hendrik]

I believe the "short power" is used much more often in the grappling than in the striking.

When you detect that your opponent intends to spin, you give him a bit "shaking (short power)", you can prevent a lot of problems. This is why when 2 good wrestlers are wrestling against each other, nobody can make his moves work because

- If you move, I shake you.
- If I move, you shake me.

nobody can generate initial speed to start his move. Your move will be stopped before you even start it.

It's easier to do this in the short clinch range. It may be hard to do this in the normal striking range. The path is just too long to stop your opponent's punch by shaking on his shoulder, or stop his kick by shaking on his upper leg. Also in striking range, your Tinjin won't be as good as when you are in grappling range.

Great!

I agree.

[ShaolinDan]

I try not to keep my hope too high. If I don't expect it, it won't bother me if I don't get it.

Hahahahahaha. Look at that. :)

[TenTigers]

The Hendrik 8 version
much better than Hendrik 7.2 version.
This upgraded version is much more user-friendly.
Much more responsive.
The answer function seems to work on this latest model.
The later version had some glitches-sometimes the answers were unclear, or only partially readable.
This newer version seems to have an auto-translate feature as well. Seems to work much better than google.

[Frost]

Lol I find myself agreeing with by Paul and John, Surprise surprise….
I have seen a few demos of short range power in my time, and also done a few but the best I ever experienced was from a former hawkeye who used short shocking power in the clinch to raise an opponent up in order to attack the blast double, it was so quick and powerful it was eye opening :)

Funnily enough he has never done any form of TCMA but can express wonderfully a key concept of a lot of those arts which some people here seem to think is unique and special, but which they cant show in action but just post clips of others to critique and make endless posts about without actually saying much

[sanjuro_ronin]

To me it's quite simple:
Practical application trumps anything else.
Couldn't care less how "well" your form looks and how will you demo ANYTHING VS someone allowing you to do it.
The only true way to test and show that you have short power ( or any other jing or kung) is the practical application thereof.
Everything other than that is just an inferior expression of it.

[Frost]

To me it's quite simple:
Practical application trumps anything else.
Couldn't care less how "well" your form looks and how will you demo ANYTHING VS someone allowing you to do it.
The only true way to test and show that you have short power ( or any other jing or kung) is the practical application thereof.
Everything other than that is just an inferior expression of it.

and whilst you can find lots of demos of form and partner drills on line...what you ask for is like gold dust......makes one think lol

[guy b.]

A variation exists even in TKD ( the "sine wave" or whatever it's called).
Again, short power can be seen in its many "manifestations" in almost every MA.
No one systems has a "monopoly" on it and to say that one systems is wrong or incorrect just because it's not done 100% like anothers is wrong.

This is true. However there must be a convincing method to deliver significant momentum to the target without throwing a full bodied punch for it to be short power.

[guy b.]

I agree with people saying that wrestlers often display amazing short power developed by wrestling and nothing else. While it is an awesome and refined physical skill, there is no mystery to it, no need for the bull**** language and open ended questions. TCMA has some good formalised idea on how to develop it for specific applications, that iks all.