Actual combat for 'normal' people

[RenDaHai]

Ever hurt someone?

While in a ring it is relatively easy to punch another guy in the face because the violence is sanctioned and safe (-ish). In real life it is much much harder. And not because of difficulty of performing the technique, no. Its the psychology.

To will-fully cause actual bodily harm to another human being is far more difficult than most people can imagine. Even in deadly situations people still have mental barriers towards hurting someone. (There are Wartime statistics about how many soldiers intentionally miss or don't fire their weapons, but I won't quote them here because I can't find their origin. Never the less worth looking up).

One of the reasons I believe wrestling and grappling to be so effective is that to use them you don't actually have to hurt another person, or escalate the violence. Just control them. This means that techniques used in wrestling are very 'usable' in combat, simply because there are not mental barriers to normal people using them. (There ARE mental barriers to crushing an opponents testicles with your tiger claw for example).


So this noted, What moves from your style are good at disabling someone while at the same time not escalating violence? Which moves could a 'normal' person use in combat, which won't offend their instincts, but still be effective? I'm more interested in merciful strikes than locks and holds

[rett]

Just a quick aside



(There are Wartime statistics about how many soldiers intentionally miss or don't fire their weapons, but I won't quote them here because I can't find their origin. Never the less worth looking up).

Keegan or Grossman (or both) iirc. Grossman wrote a book called "On Killing" and I believe the statistics got some air time in connection with that book. In case anyone wants to google it.

[uki]

when i was like 9 or so, i was getting picked on and beat up by the local bully... one day he had me all tangled up on the ground and i consciously stuck my finger into his eye to make him let go of me(that was the last time he picked on me)... i am sure, with out any inkling of a doubt, that if i was placed into a situation that required extreme measures, there would be no mental barriers, only an open road. :)

[RenDaHai]

@Rett, Cheers!

@Uki, Thats cool. But many people are as sure as you, until it happens. Though it may well be true in your case, there will certainly be many for whom its not.

I think sticking someone in the eye is more palatable than battering their skull, so its kind of what I'm talking about. A classic move.

In Chinese its often called Er long Xi Zhu, Twin dragons inhale pearls (pearls being your eyes, dragons being your fingers). The classic V-sign poke to the eyes is a staple of many styles.

[uki]

I think sticking someone in the eye is more palatable than battering their skull, so its kind of what I'm talking about. A classic move. having 4 young children whom i love dearly, i can assure you, i can and will batter skulls if the situation arises where my childrens life were in harms way or my own for the matter, aswell as anyone around me... it is a mindset that is instinctively primal and humanity, mainly in the western world, has been puss!fied from it. that is the mental barrier people must overcome... it is our right to live, by allowing others to infringe that right upon anyone else we are simply giving up our right to live... i don't know about anyone here, but it's the one right i intend to uphold in my life. :)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

having 4 young children whom i love dearly, i can assure you, i can and will batter skulls if the situation arises where my childrens life were in harms way or my own for the matter, aswell as anyone around me... it is a mindset that is instinctively primal and humanity, mainly in the western world, has been puss!fied from it. that is the mental barrier people must overcome... it is our right to live, by allowing others to infringe that right upon anyone else we are simply giving up our right to live... i don't know about anyone here, but it's the one right i intend to uphold in my life. :)

This is an interesting point that is somewhat indicitive of how society has become. We live in a world, (most of us) of laws and protection that shields us from some of the violence and chaos you can find in other parts of the world. In older times we had animal type instincts to fight and kill when are backs are against the wall, like a caged animal. The problem is this is obviously lost or "put away" due to the comforts or our worlds.

But all of us have the instinctual nature to fight, maim, or kill if necessary, and by whatever means necessary. As for my personal home protection, I have a 12 gauge that sits by my bed which trumps multiple opponents and skilled fighters.:p

[RenDaHai]

This is an interesting point that is somewhat indicitive of how society has become. We live in a world, (most of us) of laws and protection that shields us from some of the violence and chaos you can find in other parts of the world. In older times we had animal type instincts to fight and kill when are backs are against the wall, like a caged animal. The problem is this is obviously lost or "put away" due to the comforts or our worlds.

But all of us have the instinctual nature to fight, maim, or kill if necessary, and by whatever means necessary. As for my personal home protection, I have a 12 gauge that sits by my bed which trumps multiple opponents and skilled fighters.:p

I'm not sure we all do. Although we have the killer instinct when it comes to fighting other species, I think our instincts hold us back from killing each other. In the wild many animals fight amongst themselves but few kill their own. When they do it is because of extenuating circumstances, namely a challenge to dominance by an individual or group, or to protect young. Even in the face of extreme danger I don't think the killer instinct simply activates. If it did animals would be killing each other all the time.

Its not easy to hurt our own. Throughout history the enemy is dehumanised before being slaughtered. If anything I think it is our instinct to show submissive behaviour when being beaten, thats what animals do. Fighting against this is hard. Go ahead, smack your dog, see what it does, it will be extra submissive, not extra aggressive.

[rett]

having 4 young children whom i love dearly, i can assure you, i can and will batter skulls if the situation arises where my childrens life were in harms way

I totally sympathize with your opinion here. But just by way of a thought experiment imagine (God forbid) one of your children develops schizophrenia around the age of 20, has a bad episode and attacks you or your family with a knife.

If you're capable of compassionate fighting, this is a situation where you'd probably use it right? So the question is, how would it look, what techniques might you use and so on.

[uki]

If you're capable of compassionate fighting, this is a situation where you'd probably use it right?compassionate fighting is what anyone would use unless they honestly believe their lives are in danger... the original post was asking about wether or not people could actually bring themselves to hurt others in ways far worse than a typical altercation.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lots of people TALK a lot about what they would do, and you get a lot of that "killer talk" in TMA ( breaking necks, gouging eyes, forcing people to watch Pauly Shore movies), but the reality is far removed from that.
None of that is as "easy" as some try to make it sound and people that talk about that stuff tend to forget the OTHER element in the equation: the "bad guy".
I think that people that talk about "killing and maiming" with such a cavalier attitude would, as I have seen, crap their pants if they ever were faced with the real thing.
People have no idea what it is like to take a life, to live with the fact that you took a life.
As the old adage goes, "don't break what you can't fix".
If you can't fix it, don't break it.
If you can't wake someone up, don't put them to sleep.

It's all great to think that one would just go "bezerker" or that somehow one would be able to defeat another person because we REALLY, REALLY want to/have to, but it doesn't work that way.

I want you to picture your worse nightmare, a bigger, stronger attacker, now realize that he is as vicious as you and just as motivated to kill you as you are him, what would you do?

[uki]

I want you to picture your worse nightmare, a bigger, stronger attacker, now realize that he is as vicious as you and just as motivated to kill you as you are him, what would you do?kill him... actually i would view it more as him committing suicide. :p

[Fa Xing]

This is something that I have often covered in self-defense classes that I have taught, especially for women. At least in the US, we are taught as children that hitting is wrong, that violence is wrong, and while I 100% agree with that, there are just some people who don't have that social construct.

These are the people we have to be prepared for; but to be perfectly honest, most of us in civilized society (who don't intentionally frequent bad areas) will never have an incident that requires one to defend their self or others.

[sanjuro_ronin]

kill him... actually i would view it more as him committing suicide. :p

I'm sure they He'd view it the same as he walks over what is left of your corpse.

[Lucas]

Lots of people TALK a lot about what they would do, and you get a lot of that "killer talk" in TMA ( breaking necks, gouging eyes, forcing people to watch Pauly Shore movies), but the reality is far removed from that.
None of that is as "easy" as some try to make it sound and people that talk about that stuff tend to forget the OTHER element in the equation: the "bad guy".
I think that people that talk about "killing and maiming" with such a cavalier attitude would, as I have seen, crap their pants if they ever were faced with the real thing.
People have no idea what it is like to take a life, to live with the fact that you took a life.
As the old adage goes, "don't break what you can't fix".
If you can't fix it, don't break it.
If you can't wake someone up, don't put them to sleep.

It's all great to think that one would just go "bezerker" or that somehow one would be able to defeat another person because we REALLY, REALLY want to/have to, but it doesn't work that way.

I want you to picture your worse nightmare, a bigger, stronger attacker, now realize that he is as vicious as you and just as motivated to kill you as you are him, what would you do?

be glad i carry a blade and then use it if i can. or run like hell, hope i am more agile and know the area better so i can escape, and then call the cops on him...or stalk him and kill him when i can...assuming his murderous intentions to me do not go down.

:(

[RenDaHai]

@Sanjuro

Agree with everything you said, that's what I'm getting at. So in the situation of complete failure to achieve battle trance, what techniques can we fall back on? What techniques are acceptable to our minds?

If your in a state of fear and submission, you don't have the heart or the aggression, you feel weak and defeated, there is only confusion, what techniques can bring you back? Ones that don't require aggression, or strength, ones that can be done with a shaking hand and weak knees. Because this is the time we really need MA technique. If we feel invincible, dominant and angry then we can get by with just a closed fist.

[bawang]

a sheep is a sheep. if you were raised soft you die soft.

[RenDaHai]

be glad i carry a blade and then use it if i can.

Not sure that's a good idea. If you pull it out then find out you don't have the balls to actually stab someone, then you have just really p*ssed of the opponent, given him an excuse to kill you and even a weapon with which to do it. If your gonna carry you better be sure you can actually use it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

@Sanjuro

Agree with everything you said, that's what I'm getting at. So in the situation of complete failure to achieve battle trance, what techniques can we fall back on? What techniques are acceptable to our minds?

If your in a state of fear and submission, you don't have the heart or the aggression, you feel weak and defeated, there is only confusion, what techniques can bring you back? Ones that don't require aggression, or strength, ones that can be done with a shaking hand and weak knees. Because this is the time we really need MA technique. If we feel invincible, dominant and angry then we can get by with just a closed fist.

There is no battle trance, that is BS created by people that HOPE there is one and that it will save their butt because they are to lazy to develop the real skills that they need.

The base survival instinct is something that everyone has, even the bad guys ( they actually have it more since they go out of their way to prey on the "weak").
If there is one thing that ANYONE with real world experience about violence will tell you, it is this:
Fear the cold and calculated.

Guys that freak out or go bezerker or let their "primal animal" out, aren't anything to worry about ( unless you are also untrained and unskilled).

The "bad guys", the one you really need to worry about, are those that are the predators, the hunters, those the prey, not only on the weak, but those they prey for the joy of preying.

What makes on a "stone cold killer" ( note the description) is the ability to detach emotionally and "get the job done".

THAT is dangerous, that is your worse nightmare.

[sanjuro_ronin]

be glad i carry a blade and then use it if i can. or run like hell, hope i am more agile and know the area better so i can escape, and then call the cops on him...or stalk him and kill him when i can...assuming his murderous intentions to me do not go down.

:(

There is a reason that since the first 'warrior" caste that THEY most sought after thing was mental and NOT physical.
The samurai tried it was Zen, the Spartans with their "Agoge", eveyr warrior culture had it and what it hoped to create was the "Stone cold unemotional killing machine".
It has ZERO to do with techniques and everything to do with training.

[RenDaHai]

@Sanjuro,

Yeah, I know there is no battle trance, I was just thinking of a different way to say killer instinct.

I agree, it is the ones who can detach from empathy. They are the few in our society. Never the less if your gonna be attacked they are the kind of people who could turn attacking people into a profession. A normal person won't. So the chances are the nastiest fight your in is against one of them.

But detaching from empathy is a skill that thankfully not many of us have. However there are of course situations where it would be useful. If you lack it though, you need options. What are they?

[bawang]

its easy to detach empathy. picture a non white person.

[RenDaHai]

its easy to detach empathy. picture a non white person.

Ahahahaha! You say so much in so few words.

[bawang]

here is a word of advice: give them your money.

even if you win, once you go to prison for manslaughter you will get raped by black people. you guys look like albino black women to them.


i am only saying this half jokingly, you guys should read some prison rape testimonials.

[Lucas]

Not sure that's a good idea. If you pull it out then find out you don't have the balls to actually stab someone, then you have just really p*ssed of the opponent, given him an excuse to kill you and even a weapon with which to do it. If your gonna carry you better be sure you can actually use it.

i think it depends on the person. i have stabbed 1 person in my life, (well 2 people but one was an reactionary accident and it was a friend :( ) and i definately would do it again, especially if i feel my life is on the line. I stabbed the guy in the thigh. no question in my mind if I would do it again. a long time ago when i first started to carry a knife, i always wondered if i i could use it...but in my gut i felt like i was about to fall off a huge cliff and I just knew... you know what you have to do. at that point its (in your mind at least) do or die. the will to live is a very powerful force.

[Lucas]

here is a word of advice: give them your money.
.

its not always just a robbery. sometimes people just want to fuc u up for the color of your skin, the way you dress, where you are, cuz they are high...its not always about money.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

@Sanjuro

Agree with everything you said, that's what I'm getting at. So in the situation of complete failure to achieve battle trance, what techniques can we fall back on? What techniques are acceptable to our minds?

If your in a state of fear and submission, you don't have the heart or the aggression, you feel weak and defeated, there is only confusion, what techniques can bring you back? Ones that don't require aggression, or strength, ones that can be done with a shaking hand and weak knees. Because this is the time we really need MA technique. If we feel invincible, dominant and angry then we can get by with just a closed fist.

When your life is threatened, you kill or be killed. It is really that simple. There is no gear switching or no trance, there is simply instinct and training, both of which you better hope is good on your part.

[sanjuro_ronin]

@Sanjuro,

Yeah, I know there is no battle trance, I was just thinking of a different way to say killer instinct.

I agree, it is the ones who can detach from empathy. They are the few in our society. Never the less if your gonna be attacked they are the kind of people who could turn attacking people into a profession. A normal person won't. So the chances are the nastiest fight your in is against one of them.

But detaching from empathy is a skill that thankfully not many of us have. However there are of course situations where it would be useful. If you lack it though, you need options. What are they?


I know what you are asking bro but there is a reason why there are victims in this world and that reason is because some are lions and some are sheep.
That is the nature of the world we live in.
what you are asking is what can be done to turn sheep into lions and the answer is nothing.
BUT what can be done is give the sheep enough of a chance to NOT be dead sheep and that is from awareness, common sense and foresight.
But if all that fails, a person must understand AND accept that hey will die ( quite possibly) or they will get beaten (quite probably) and that they should at least try to take the SOB with them.
The samurai called it "mutual death", the realization that you can't beat the other person ( that means you can't kill AND survive) so you accept your fate and take him with you.

[RenDaHai]

I know what you are asking bro but there is a reason why there are victims in this world and that reason is because some are lions and some are sheep.
That is the nature of the world we live in.
what you are asking is what can be done to turn sheep into lions and the answer is nothing.
BUT what can be done is give the sheep enough of a chance to NOT be dead sheep and that is from awareness, common sense and foresight.
But if all that fails, a person must understand AND accept that hey will die ( quite possibly) or they will get beaten (quite probably) and that they should at least try to take the SOB with them.
The samurai called it "mutual death", the realization that you can't beat the other person ( that means you can't kill AND survive) so you accept your fate and take him with you.

Yeah...I guess so. That's the real trick isn't it. A lot of argument goes on about technique and styles, but when it comes down to it none of that is as important as what is in the mind.

[YouKnowWho]

This will have to do with individual life experience. When I was "homeless" for 3 months in NYC, I carried a knife with me 24/7. I had no friends, no relatives in US. If I got killed, it would be just me. I had a lot of courage back then. I did hurt people in the street. The thought that I had in my mind, if I got thrown into jail, at least I would have bread and a bed to sleep.

Today, my attitude has changed 180 degree. If you dare to touch me, I'll sue you.

[Lucas]

This will have to do with individual life experience. When I was "homeless" for 3 months in NYC, I carried a knife with me 24/7. I had no friends, no relatives in US. If I got killed, it would be just me. I had a lot of courage back then. I did hurt people in the street. The thought that I had in my mind, if I got thrown into jail, at least I would have bread and a bed to sleep.

Today, my attitude has changed 180 degree. I'll sue you if you dare to touch me.

haha!! i was homeless for a long period of time, things are very different in your head when you have to live like that. I commited my share of crimes, just to survive really, but I had the same mindset you did. I didnt WANT to get caught, but IF i did, i wasnt too worried about it. now after 12 years of living a 'normal' life, my mindset is very different also.

[ShaolinDan]

Merciful striking: stomp foot, scrape shin, kick thigh, punch bicep, body shots...
But self-defense should be groin, eyes, throat--

Having personally experienced the 'freeze' that happens in a real situation on a few occasions, I don't think 'nicer' strikes will solve the problem (at least they wouldn't have for me, this was pre- kung fu).

Beating the freeze probably requires training/experience most people aren't willing/ready to go through...

[RenDaHai]

Merciful striking: stomp foot, scrape shin, kick thigh, punch bicep, body shots...
But self-defense should be groin, eyes, throat--

Having personally experienced the 'freeze' that happens in a real situation on a few occasions, I don't think 'nicer' strikes will solve the problem (at least they wouldn't have for me, this was pre- kung fu).

Beating the freeze probably requires training/experience most people aren't willing/ready to go through...

I know the freeze. I find it useful to have a plan. The thing is I've been hit enough to not freeze at the prospect of getting hit, its the prospect of harming someone else that makes me hesitate. That's why I am interested in 'merciful' strikes. If I am comfortable with what I am going to do, that makes the decision to do it easier to make, and the decision is a lot slower than my hands. I need it to catch up.

[ShaolinDan]

I know the freeze. I find it useful to have a plan. The thing is I've been hit enough to not freeze at the prospect of getting hit, its the prospect of harming someone else that makes me hesitate. That's why I am interested in 'merciful' strikes. If I am comfortable with what I am going to do, that makes the decision to do it easier to make, and the decision is a lot slower than my hands. I need it to catch up.

Word. :)

I know that feeling...in schoolyard fights I'd always punch to the gut and wrestle, even when the face was wide open.
Attack the limbs and the body then. Punch the solar plexus (not too hard) and knock the wind out. And stay out of trouble. :)

Personally, I'd be leaning towards grappling options...but you didn't want those I guess.

[hskwarrior]

I know the freeze. I find it useful to have a plan. The thing is I've been hit enough to not freeze at the prospect of getting hit, its the prospect of harming someone else that makes me hesitate. That's why I am interested in 'merciful' strikes. If I am comfortable with what I am going to do, that makes the decision to do it easier to make, and the decision is a lot slower than my hands. I need it to catch up.

Not me. i'm not interested in merciful strikes. If i have to exchange hands with someone who is intent on hurting me, i MUST give back equal if not more aggression with the intent on hurting someone. do i think you should beat someone to death? F*ck no.

Sports fighting is one thing, but when you are attacked by someone who is intent on hurting you, maybe even willing to take your life, you have to be ready to go from 0-60 at the drop at a hat. there is no time to worry about hurting the other person. the primary focus is SELF DEFENSE. at any cost.

personally, i feel experience is the best in learning how to draw on our natural violent natures. Anger has to be part of it for a bit as well. but in the end of the day, what matters most is that you do what you have to to survive. what ever it takes. but, as martial artists, we have a duty to harness all of that in a positive nature. its fighting fire with fire. one person does it cause they have to, the other does it cause the want to.

[RenDaHai]

Word. :)

I know that feeling...in schoolyard fights I'd always punch to the gut and wrestle, even when the face was wide open.
Attack the limbs and the body then. Punch the solar plexus (not too hard) and knock the wind out. And stay out of trouble. :)

Personally, I'd be leaning towards grappling options...but you didn't want those I guess.

Good tips, I like the foot stamp too, I always forget about it. Yeah, I know from experience its best not to get tangled up unless you are really really sure there is no one else waiting in the wings.

[Crosshandz]

When your life is threatened, you kill or be killed. It is really that simple. There is no gear switching or no trance, there is simply instinct and training, both of which you better hope is good on your part.

Basically everything that needs to be said is said here. If its about to kick off you make sure you got one thing in mind: Living. In the moment when a fight is about to start there's no room for any thought or philosophy. Its your or the other guy and you just gotta have the determination to hold onto your life at all costs and let that carry you through.

[uki]

I'm sure they He'd view it the same as he walks over what is left of your corpse.of course... sanjuro, last descendant of the mighty spartans, has spoken. :rolleyes:


When your life is threatened, you kill or be killed. It is really that simple. too simple for some people it seems...



Basically everything that needs to be said is said here. If its about to kick off you make sure you got one thing in mind: Living. In the moment when a fight is about to start there's no room for any thought or philosophy. Its your or the other guy and you just gotta have the determination to hold onto your life at all costs and let that carry you through.exactly.

[RenDaHai]

@Uki and Crosshandz and Hsk and Iron Eagle,

Sure, ok.

But what if you don't know your life is being threatened? What if its just a scuffle? It is sometimes very hard to judge the other persons intent, especially if they are an empathically detached person.

Most often a fight will not be intentionally life threatening, and yet it is always potentially life threatening. Learning to over react would be a big mistake.

People always say in fights there are no rules, but that's not true. There are a whole host of rules (law, morality, ethics, environmental). Unfortunately when you go in you don't always know what rules your opponent is playing by and that can be very confusing.

If your standing in line in Wallmart, buying a new kitchen knife, then the attendant ups and slaps you round the face, you can't just stab him in the bladder now can you? Actually there are some people who would, but the rest of us need some compassionate moves.

[PalmStriker]

Okay. Stopped training preemptive strike to crush voicebox.(5 years ago). Now train to break jaw, hammerfist with simutaneous low snap kick using whole side of foot as club to the ankle to hobble. back of wrist to collarbone if attacker persists. Dislocation as mercy option. Rage prevents me from doing less.

[-N-]

Shin kick, palm to nose, run away.

If you're feeling extra compassionate, just do the run away part.

[PalmStriker]

@Sanjuro,

Yeah, I know there is no battle trance, I was just thinking of a different way to say killer instinct.

I agree, it is the ones who can detach from empathy. They are the few in our society. Never the less if your gonna be attacked they are the kind of people who could turn attacking people into a profession. A normal person won't. So the chances are the nastiest fight your in is against one of them.

But detaching from empathy is a skill that thankfully not many of us have. However there are of course situations where it would be useful. If you lack it though, you need options. What are they?

wrong, not few. 60% of the prison population in the US. are sociopaths, same emotional deficiency gene as the "psychopath". One out of ten males is a scociopath. Out of every six sociopaths, one is female. (Stats).

[Crosshandz]

@Uki and Crosshandz and Hsk and Iron Eagle,

Sure, ok.

But what if you don't know your life is being threatened? What if its just a scuffle? It is sometimes very hard to judge the other persons intent, especially if they are an empathically detached person.

Most often a fight will not be intentionally life threatening, and yet it is always potentially life threatening. Learning to over react would be a big mistake.

People always say in fights there are no rules, but that's not true. There are a whole host of rules (law, morality, ethics, environmental). Unfortunately when you go in you don't always know what rules your opponent is playing by and that can be very confusing.

If your standing in line in Wallmart, buying a new kitchen knife, then the attendant ups and slaps you round the face, you can't just stab him in the bladder now can you? Actually there are some people who would, but the rest of us need some compassionate moves.

I've never had the experience of a shop attendant slapping me in the face. In that instance actually there's no need to fight you can just threaten legal action. Its a lot tidier than fighting and would probably be more rewarding financially.

In an uncontrolled street fight situation there's always the chance you might die. A well placed punch that causes your head to hit the concrete too hard can kill you. There are plenty of people in prison right now who accidentally killed someone in that manner. All sorts of stuff can happen in that environment. People jump in, people pick up things out of the nearest trash can to use as weapons. From my point of view if you're in a street fight your life is at risk and your aim should be to live. The overwhelming desire to live will clarify your thoughts and give you the clarity to fight as you should or run as you should.

[rett]

From my point of view if you're in a street fight your life is at risk and your aim should be to live.

Going to prison on a manslaughter charge isn't a good outcome either though. It's complicated.

[RenDaHai]

In an uncontrolled street fight situation there's always the chance you might die. A well placed punch that causes your head to hit the concrete too hard can kill you. There are plenty of people in prison right now who accidentally killed someone in that manner. All sorts of stuff can happen in that environment. People jump in, people pick up things out of the nearest trash can to use as weapons. From my point of view if you're in a street fight your life is at risk and your aim should be to live. The overwhelming desire to live will clarify your thoughts and give you the clarity to fight as you should or run as you should.

This is true, there is always the chance you could die, and every fight is potentially life threatening as I said above. However every time you cross a street there is also a statistically significant chance of dying too. In fact every time you do anything. Every day we rely on our wits to keep us safe but we don't compromise our lifestyle out of fear. Similarly I don't want to compromise my morals out of fear.

I want good MA skill because I want to be able to be true to my morals and convictions. If I thought I could just go ape sh*t every time I am threatened then I wouldn't need any where near as much training. I train so that I can afford to be compassionate even when under threat.

I agree that in a situation where the opponents murderous intent is clear, then you should be equally fierce. But when its just a fight, even though the potential of death exists, I don't think you should always just go mental. In fact I actually think mental barriers exist to prevent you from doing so.

Often I find situations exist where I am not directly under threat. But someone else is, If I want to intervene I can't do so in full murder mode because I do not know the situation. Never the less to ignore it and not help would be unacceptable. So the compassionate moves are very important.

[ShaolinDan]

I want good MA skill because I want to be able to be true to my morals and convictions. If I thought I could just go ape sh*t every time I am threatened then I wouldn't need any where near as much training. I train so that I can afford to be compassionate even when under threat.

True Shaolin. :) Right on.

[IronFist]

wrong, not few. 60% of the prison population in the US. are sociopaths, same emotional deficiency gene as the "psychopath". One out of ten males is a scociopath. Out of every six sociopaths, one is female. (Stats).

I thought it was 1-4% of the population was a sociopath?

edit - "The prevalence of this disorder is 3% in males and 1% from females, as stated in the DSM IV-TR."

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder

Oh wait, did you mean one out of every 10 in prison is a sociopath?

[Crosshandz]

Going to prison on a manslaughter charge isn't a good outcome either though. It's complicated.

Its self defence if in a court of law you can prove a) you didn't start it b) you felt in genuine fear for your life and c) you acted as any reasonable individual would do in your circumstances as adjudged by a jury.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying people should run around beating people to death. But I think we need to get real here. Maybe where I'm from street fights are more vicious than in some parts but as I have known it real violence is f'n scary. If someone wants to do you over you gotta be ready for that person to come flying at you and know it isnt gonna be a simple case of bustin' out a nice technique from the repetoire to take them down. You gotta be afraid and you gotta fight back like your life is on the line...

...cos it could be.

Maybe our experiences are different Ren but I cant think of any time in a non controlled fight situation where I felt I could use a particular 'self defence' move. As I have known it, and this is just from my limited experience, real fighting isnt like that.

[Fa Xing]

Maybe our experiences are different Ren but I cant think of any time in a non controlled fight situation where I felt I could use a particular 'self defence' move. As I have known it, and this is just from my limited experience, real fighting isnt like that.

I can't even recall in a sparring situation where I have been able to pull off a specific technique/movement/sequence they way it's intended to work.

[sanjuro_ronin]

of course... sanjuro, last descendant of the mighty spartans, has spoken. :rolleyes:

too simple for some people it seems...


exactly.

That you don't understand what I said, speaks volumes.
Fact is that YOUR attitude IS shared by your attacker and that MUST be assumed, ie: He is just as intent on killing you as you are him.
What will be the deciding outcome under those TRUE circumstances?
That guy with better training, period.

[bawang]

Going to prison on a manslaughter charge isn't a good outcome either though. It's complicated.

you also get raped.

[uki]

That you don't understand what I said, speaks volumes.that you don't understand me screams the library of alexandria.

Fact is that YOUR attitude IS shared by your attacker and that MUST be assumed, ie: He is just as intent on killing you as you are him.the key here is he is the attacker... not me... thus he has already placed himself into a vulnerable position. :)

What will be the deciding outcome under those TRUE circumstances?justified willpower.

That guy with better training, period.will beats skill in all days ending in "Y".

[hskwarrior]

Sure, ok.

But what if you don't know your life is being threatened? What if its just a scuffle? It is sometimes very hard to judge the other persons intent, especially if they are an empathically detached person.

Most often a fight will not be intentionally life threatening, and yet it is always potentially life threatening. Learning to over react would be a big mistake.

People always say in fights there are no rules, but that's not true. There are a whole host of rules (law, morality, ethics, environmental). Unfortunately when you go in you don't always know what rules your opponent is playing by and that can be very confusing.

If your standing in line in Wallmart, buying a new kitchen knife, then the attendant ups and slaps you round the face, you can't just stab him in the bladder now can you? Actually there are some people who would, but the rest of us need some compassionate moves.

Where i come from any type of confrontation has the potential to be violent. the key is, are you as a martial artist going to allow someone to commit violence on you while you stand for your morals? will those morals stop a serious beat down? my own experience is if you don't know someone and they approach you for unknown reasons, you have to immediately be on alert. you should pay attention to his eyes, to his hands, to the position of his body. if he is talking to you in a side stance you should know he's ready to cold kock you. you should be ready and able to stop that from happening.

Its not about over reacting if a fight takes place. in the ring or the street, the whole purpose is to survive and hopefully come out victorious.

Oh, about rules, if i have to fight someone Laws,ethics, morals, environmental or whatever.......those are NOT EVEN ON THE MIND OF THE PERSON ATTACKING YOU, THEREFORE NEITHER IS IT ON MINE. FUK THE LAW......THE LAW IS NOT ALWAYS FAIR. what IS on my mind is NOT LETTING THIS MO FO BEAT ME DOWN FOR ANY REASON. deal with the law later. in a street fight the only rule people pray for is NOT TO GET JUMPED.

Compassion is for spectators. someone attacking you knows once he attacks you he has to finish the job or go to jail for some sissy sh1t. if anyone slaps you, yes you can call the law, but the people i know wouldn't call the cops until they beat you down for it first.


the key here is he is the attacker... not me... thus he has already placed himself into a vulnerable position.

thinking like this will get you in a world of trouble. you should always expect the worst by go for the best. trained fighters have a hard time some times dealing with an experienced street fighter because of unorthodoxed and wild swings.

over confidence and passivity are you two worst enemies.

[RenDaHai]

Maybe our experiences are different Ren but I cant think of any time in a non controlled fight situation where I felt I could use a particular 'self defence' move. As I have known it, and this is just from my limited experience, real fighting isnt like that.

That's true, but in my experience its not so easy to suddenly turn the situation around. To suddenly turn into Rambo when there are so many confusing factors. Techniques never turn out like in the dojo, never the less techniques represent various strategies. Its these strategies that are interesting.

I Find it helps to have a plan. If I get hit and all I can think about is 'defending myself', then all I do is move and guard, that doesn't work for very long. If I have a plan, even something simple like 'put his head on the floor' its kind of like the decisions are already made and you just go with it.

A useful strategy of technique, a merciful one, would be what I'm looking for.

[RenDaHai]

Where i come from any type of confrontation has the potential to be violent. the key is, are you as a martial artist going to allow someone to commit violence on you while you stand for your morals? will those morals stop a serious beat down? my own experience is if you don't know someone and they approach you for unknown reasons, you have to immediately be on alert. you should pay attention to his eyes, to his hands, to the position of his body. if he is talking to you in a side stance you should know he's ready to cold kock you. you should be ready and able to stop that from happening.

Its not about over reacting if a fight takes place. in the ring or the street, the whole purpose is to survive and hopefully come out victorious.

Oh, about rules, if i have to fight someone Laws,ethics, morals, environmental or whatever.......those are NOT EVEN ON THE MIND OF THE PERSON ATTACKING YOU, THEREFORE NEITHER IS IT ON MINE. FUK THE LAW......THE LAW IS NOT ALWAYS FAIR. what IS on my mind is NOT LETTING THIS MO FO BEAT ME DOWN FOR ANY REASON. deal with the law later. in a street fight the only rule people pray for is NOT TO GET JUMPED.

over confidence and passivity are you two worst enemies.

But I aknowledge this already for a really dangerous situation. My point is this:

In my experience its not easy to do. Its confusing and there are so many factors its very hard to just turn on the Killer instinct.

ALso at times it is interjecting in other peoples situations rather than being wholly threatened yourself. For example, you don't like to see someone else getting a beatdown who clearly can't defend themselves. In this situation compassion is already engaged. Not knowing the situation and putting yourself voluntarily under threat play with your mind in a different way. Its also hard to hurt someone.

Sometimes its NOT such a serious situation. The other guy is not trying to kill you, he's just p*ssed off. Unfortunately sometimes it is hard to tell.

Final point, I genuinly find it hard to hurt people. If there are mental barriers towards me inflicting harm, then my powerful strategies are useless to me. If I have a set of strategies that can be executed without causing serious harm, that is easier for my mind to accept. It is therefore easier for me to make the decision.

Indecision is crippling and causes you to freeze. Making the decision is everything. If you go in confused you are very ineffective. If you go in with the decisions already made, with a plan, you react much faster.

I do not think I am unusual, and I believe many people find it difficult to harm another. Thus the most effective martial art to teach these people is one which has a simple and merciful strategy, because then they will actually be able to make the decision to use it.

[rett]

you also get raped.

If you go to a rough prison, from what I've heard, a good strategy, if you can pull it off, is to beat the tar out of the first person that starts to mess with you. It will probably be a low-status prisoner without allies, who is trying to gain respect.

People will see you aren't a coward and a gang may see you as useful to have around. The threat of revenge from your gang will keep you from getting raped. Or at least might help.

In any case, it's better not to end up there in the first place. Very bad outcome of a self-defence fight.

[PalmStriker]

I thought it was 1-4% of the population was a sociopath?

edit - "The prevalence of this disorder is 3% in males and 1% from females, as stated in the DSM IV-TR."

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder

Oh wait, did you mean one out of every 10 in prison is a sociopath? Up to 80% 0f the convicted prison population in the U.S. http://www.ehow.com/about_5125823_causes-sociopathic-behavior.html