TCMA or MMA?

[Yum Cha]

This clip has been put out there, showing a successful straight blast attack, Belfort v Silva

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_x2rqKc&feature=player_embedded

Anybody out there not see a TCMA influence in there? Where did that technique come from? Watching the footwork too.

[uki]

T
Anybody out there not see a TCMA influence in there? Where did that technique come from? Watching the footwork too.ummmmm... something to do with a guy who has long white eyebrows??

[YouKnowWho]

This is one of my favor daily training drills. I'll punch like a crazy man on my heavy bag as hard as I can, and as fast as I can until I'm totally exhausted (about 60 punches). I then rest for 1 minute and repeat the same drill 2 more time. I believe it's a very good investment for my training time. I don't know it's good for "health" or not. Someone said it may not be good for my heart if I get too excited like this everyday. IMO, training like this should not have any "style boundary" at all.

[-N-]

Anybody out there not see a TCMA influence in there? Where did that technique come from? Watching the footwork too.

Every n00b martial arts person that's ever done bow and arrow stance reverse punch line drill has done that attack.

But there's a big difference between doing a line drill and being able to take someone out with the attack.

That's the difference between form and application.

[-N-]

I don't know it's good for "health" or not. Someone said it may not be good for my heart if I get too excited like this everyday. IMO, training like this should not have any "style boundary" at all.

That's good interval training for cardio.

[Yum Cha]

Every n00b martial arts person that's ever done bow and arrow stance reverse punch line drill has done that attack.

But there's a big difference between doing a line drill and being able to take someone out with the attack.

That's the difference between form and application.

Training generally takes you from form to application. I think its a nice example of how a TCMA technique, if trained and applied properly, can indeed be imminently practical.

And thus by inference make the point that there are lots of TCMA techniques that are indeed practical, if trained and applied properly. People want to see TCMA working, I think this is pretty good. The other vid of the Aussie SPM guy going full contact and taking the guy out makes for another good one.

I'm kinda saying to the TCMA guys too, if you can't get stuck into it like that, you need to lift your game.

[hskwarrior]

the clip shows the same thing we do in our hung sing choy lee fut....we call it running chop choys...............

[IronFist]

Not in a Wing Chun stance.

Not vertical punches.

It's not "TCMA influenced" unless TCMA was the first to come up with the idea of punching repeatedly while walking forward.

That being said, I trained at a Straight Blast Gym (MMA, no relation to JKD or WC, http://www.straightblastgym.com/) and one day I asked "why is it called Straight Blast? There's no Wing Chun here and there's no chain punching" and I was told it was named after the MMA version of straight blast, which is pretty similar to what was shown in that clip (basically repeatedly throwing crosses while rushing forward at your opponent).

I suppose that would be "TCMA influence" since the name and concept were taken from WC.

[Yum Cha]

Not in a Wing Chun stance.

Not vertical punches.

Simply punching repeatedly while moving forward does not automatically = wing chun chain punches, but I'm sure the TCMA guys here will say "omg he's using sound wing chun principles because he's throwing punches therefore it's wing chun!"

LOL, do ya reckon?? I just saying there is a general example of this kind of repeated, elbow down 'jabbing' across a bunch of TCMA.

[IronFist]

I ninja edited my post. Go read it again.

My final answer is: I sort of agree there is TCMA influence there (although not for the reasons the TCMA guys on this forum will think, because they will say "omg he's using sound wing chun principles because he's throwing punches therefore it's wing chun!").

[TenTigers]

Also done in Hop-Ga/Bak-Hok/Lama chuen choy.
I learned them from Sifu David Rogers (Rising Crane)
We drill them stationary first, shifting side to side (arms extended)
Then with stepping(arms still extended) until the students can go faster
Once the structure is learned, you can now bring the guard up to cover the head,
and run it.
It is move for move, identical.


now some db is going to say,
"You can teach the same technique without all the TCMA mumbo jumbo."

yeah, good...stfu.

[TenTigers]

as a matter of fact, I use that exact fight to use as an example.

You have to. When you are practicing the drills across the floor, you feel kinda silly.
Then they see the video, and go,"Ohhhhh...cool!"

[bawang]

so to make kung fu work, you have to not train kung fu?

[Yum Cha]

I ninja edited my post. Go read it again.

My final answer is: I sort of agree there is TCMA influence there (although not for the reasons the TCMA guys on this forum will think, because they will say "omg he's using sound wing chun principles because he's throwing punches therefore it's wing chun!").

Yea, fair enough, he's just taken a concept and made it work.

[hskwarrior]

so to make kung fu work, you have to not train kung fu?

what is kung fu?

[-N-]

My final answer is: I sort of agree there is TCMA influence there

Don't know about influence, but EVERYBODY has it.

So it's no surprise if 4 TCMA guys, a karate guy, and a boxer show up and all say, "Yeah, we do that".

[R]

This looks alot like what the chow gar guys do in their drills... if I had seen it in a class and not an MMA match that is exactly what I would have said.

Wing chun? Nah.. the foot work is all wrong and the hands don't really follow the 'principles' ;' )

FWIW

R

[Robinhood]

This clip has been put out there, showing a successful straight blast attack, Belfort v Silva

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_x2rqKc&feature=player_embedded

Anybody out there not see a TCMA influence in there? Where did that technique come from? Watching the footwork too.

I think that technique came from I don't have to protect my nuts school.

[YouKnowWho]

It's not "TCMA influenced" unless TCMA was the first to come up with the idea of punching repeatedly while walking forward.
I started my "1 step 3 punches" training when I was 11 years old. After my Lohan teacher (my brother in law) found out that I liked to fight (I was a bad boy), he forced me to drill "1 step 3 punches" for 3 years.

The TCMA has:

- 1 step 3 punches (Tantui #5),
- 1 step 2 punches (little Baji),
- 1 step 1 punch (Mai Fu Chuan),
- 2 steps 1 punch (Tantui #10), and
- 3 steps 1 punch (3rd road Pao Chuan).

[Fa Xing]

Not in a Wing Chun stance.

Not vertical punches.

It's not "TCMA influenced" unless TCMA was the first to come up with the idea of punching repeatedly while walking forward.

That being said, I trained at a Straight Blast Gym (MMA, no relation to JKD or WC, http://www.straightblastgym.com/) and one day I asked "why is it called Straight Blast? There's no Wing Chun here and there's no chain punching" and I was told it was named after the MMA version of straight blast, which is pretty similar to what was shown in that clip (basically repeatedly throwing crosses while rushing forward at your opponent).

I suppose that would be "TCMA influence" since the name and concept were taken from WC.

The President of the gym is Matt Thornton, a well known JKD practitioner.

[Fa Xing]

I think that technique came from I don't have to protect my nuts school.

Well, that is a stupid comment. Come here, I will straight blast you, and you try to kick me in the nuts.:rolleyes:

[-N-]

the clip shows the same thing we do in our hung sing choy lee fut....we call it running chop choys...............

We actually make the students run and do sprints while throwing their punches and/or kicks. From one end of the basketball court to the other.

Belfort got the job done, but his footwork was a little stiff and awkward. He had a lot of muscle, and didn't use a lot of body torque on his punches. Which was fine since they weren't finishing strikes, but more for speed to overrun Silva. More squared up allowed him to bring up both hands equally quickly for attack and if necessary for counter in case something came back at him.

From TCMA training perspective, we make the student run more smoothly so they have more leg drive, more quad flex and not so wide and stiff leg like in the video. And especially more torso turn for power. We push the range of motion because when under pressure, people tend to tighten up and cut their motions short.

Still, it's all basically alternating footwork reverse punch.

[-N-]

I started my "1 step 3 punches" training when I was 11 years old. After my Lohan teacher (my brother in law) found out that I liked to fight (I was a bad boy), he forced me to drill "1 step 3 punches" for 3 years.

The TCMA has:

- 1 step 3 punches (Tantui #5),
- 1 step 2 punches (little Baji),
- 1 step 1 punch (Mai Fu Chuan),
- 2 steps 1 punch (Tantui #10), and
- 3 steps 1 punch (3rd road Pao Chuan).

1 step 3 punches becomes 2 steps 6 punches which becomes running footwork continous attack which becomes attack at will from anywhere any time :)

And we're not even talking about flying jumping attacks yet :)

[Yum Cha]

Don't know about influence, but EVERYBODY has it.

So it's no surprise if 4 TCMA guys, a karate guy, and a boxer show up and all say, "Yeah, we do that".

Naaa, you're wrong. that's not karate, and its not boxing. Boxers don't keep elbows down like that, and karate chambers.

[Yum Cha]

The President of the gym is Matt Thornton, a well known JKD practitioner.

Aiii YAAAA!

[-N-]

Naaa, you're wrong. that's not karate, and its not boxing. Boxers don't keep elbows down like that, and karate chambers.

Shaolin chambers 36 times before attacking. There was a movie about that.

[IronFist]

The President of the gym is Matt Thornton, a well known JKD practitioner.

That explains it. I had heard of Matt Thornton before but I didn't know he had JKD roots.

There was no JKD in what we did other than the basic idea of Bruce Lee that says to absorb what is useful and disregard the rest. SBGi was a collection of stuff that was useful (crazy monkey, boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, various wrestling stuff).

I guess he took the name (Straight Blast) from his old style?

[Frost]

The President of the gym is Matt Thornton, a well known JKD practitioner.

actually matt was a well known boxer (sparring partner to lewis at one time i believe) who pretty much dropped all the jkd and wing chun stuff if he ever did it, kept te name probably for marketing reasons, but thats about it

he ;eft JKD for the same reasons he bags on TCMA......

[Frost]

Naaa, you're wrong. that's not karate, and its not boxing. Boxers don't keep elbows down like that, and karate chambers.

Depends on the coach a number of boxing coaches teach the elbow down especially when teaching for MMA

It might look like a lot of things, but his only striking training comes from boxing so I think we can safely say that’s where he got the idea from

this clip has been brought up before and then as now the point should be, if a fighter can demonstrate what people regard as TCMA principles without ever following those principles training methods, and we cant actually find clips of TCMA doing those principles in a similar full contact event, maybe the question should be why aren’t we training the same way as this guy if he it at the end goal we want to achieve?

[Frost]

Also done in Hop-Ga/Bak-Hok/Lama chuen choy.
I learned them from Sifu David Rogers (Rising Crane)
We drill them stationary first, shifting side to side (arms extended)
Then with stepping(arms still extended) until the students can go faster
Once the structure is learned, you can now bring the guard up to cover the head,
and run it.
It is move for move, identical.


now some db is going to say,
"You can teach the same technique without all the TCMA mumbo jumbo."

yeah, good...stfu.

Yep I said it, and I said it because I dislike people pointing to clips of fighters not from TCMA doing TCMA principles in fights as if that valids how they train….. why not simply most clips of yourself, your students or your style doing the same thing because that would validate both the principleas and the training methods you use

Is it because because the clips don’t exist, or because you cant be bothered to show it because its not that big a deal to you (that’s a general you not aimed at TT)
Because if it’s the latter why constantly post about it if it doesn’t matter, if it’s the former then maybe you should look at the way you are training if its not producing the results you see in the clip

[David Jamieson]

I think that wishing an apple was a block of cheese is retarded.

But maybe that's just me?

[Yum Cha]

...this clip has been brought up before and then as now the point should be, if a fighter can demonstrate what people regard as TCMA principles without ever following those principles training methods,


and we cant actually find clips of TCMA doing those principles in a similar full contact event, maybe the question should be why aren’t we training the same way as this guy if he it at the end goal we want to achieve?

OK, you will never learn to fight like that from just forms. Given.
But, as several TCMA guys have said, they train it from from through to fighting. Yes, the TCMA guys that fight, granted.
So, you can't really say that its a TCMA principle that can't be trained using TCMA. You can say that there are plenty of ways to train it, fair enough.

One guys says he has JKD background, you contend only boxing....probably as with most things, the sum of the parts?

And about the video, it appears you are saying that when a TCMA principle is used effectively in MMA, it doesn't count as TCMA? Has to be done by old guys in silk pjs? Or what?

And you, Frost, you've had some TCMA, I remember you talking about shock power. You said something about being able to apply that in MMA as well? I bet you have a few other tricks in your bag, besides the main game.

Not taking anything away from MMA, but this ongoing quest for video of TCMA that works made me think this would be interesting.

[YouKnowWho]

You don't use form to train how to fight. You use drills to train how to fight. Most of the time, the drill comes from form. After you have a set of drills that you like to train. Oneday you link it together, you just create a new form.

If MMA has 100 good moves. Instead of callling it move 1, move 2, ... oneday someone links all the moves together, The MMA form will be born. Will MMA guys use that form for training? Of course not. It will be a good subject for the future generation MMA guys to "reference".

[Frost]

OK, you will never learn to fight like that from just forms. Given.
But, as several TCMA guys have said, they train it from from through to fighting. Yes, the TCMA guys that fight, granted.
So, you can't really say that its a TCMA principle that can't be trained using TCMA. You can say that there are plenty of ways to train it, fair enough.

One guys says he has JKD background, you contend only boxing....probably as with most things, the sum of the parts?

And about the video, it appears you are saying that when a TCMA principle is used effectively in MMA, it doesn't count as TCMA? Has to be done by old guys in silk pjs? Or what?

And you, Frost, you've had some TCMA, I remember you talking about shock power. You said something about being able to apply that in MMA as well? I bet you have a few other tricks in your bag, besides the main game.

Not taking anything away from MMA, but this ongoing quest for video of TCMA that works made me think this would be interesting.

matt thorntons (ower of SBG) hands are almost 100% from boxing, i know this from first hand expereince, he left JKD because for him it was getting away from being practical and proven in a fight (the same arguement he uses against TCMA..well wing chun lol) as for belfort he has only boxing in his background northing.... else principles can be universal its the training methods that make them effective or not

what i am saying is that if you cant show a TCMA guy using those principles but you can show an MMA guy using them, maybe it should make one think about HOW you train those principles thats all

yes i still use my TCMA in both my grappling and MMA, but i have seen that same shOck power and whole body power expressed in wrestling from people with no TCMA training, again if they can get there and use it in a fight maybe training methods need looking at

[Shaolin]

Does it really matter where the technique comes from? If it works, use it.

[IronFist]

Does it really matter where the technique comes from? If it works, use it.

It matters because people might see it and go "cool, I want to learn that!" And then someone tells them it's TMA so they go to the wrong school. Knowledgeable people have the responsibility to help those that want to learn.

Plus, TMA people (at least on this forum) have a habit of seeing MMA techniques that are nothing like their own TMA techniques, and saying "oh yeah, that guy is doing TMA!"

I went to a heavy metal concert last weekend. I bet if I had taken some TMA people there they would've said "wow, that guitarrist is really good at playing country music!" http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

[Fa Xing]

matt thorntons (ower of SBG) hands are almost 100% from boxing, i know this from first hand expereince, he left JKD because for him it was getting away from being practical and proven in a fight (the same arguement he uses against TCMA..well wing chun lol) as for belfort he has only boxing in his background northing.... else principles can be universal its the training methods that make them effective or not

Which is weird because Jim McCann, Tim Tackett, Dan Inosanto, Erik Paulson, and many others train MMA fighters. I think it comes down to the fact of how you train, and how balanced your training can be.

There are a lot of people who swore off JKD claiming that it doesn't work, or specifically that trapping doesn't work; but it's better to say that they can't get it to work. I have had no problem using JKD trapping during a sparring session, whether with boxing gloves or mma gloves and not just against people who train JKD either.

[Robinhood]

Well, that is a stupid comment. Come here, I will straight blast you, and you try to kick me in the nuts.:rolleyes:


If your arm is longer than my leg, maybe !.

Why do these guys just back straight away, isn't that the first thing to learn don't go straight back?

To much offense not enough defense in most of these fights, I think Machida is one of the few that seems to have defense qualities.

[BakShaolinEC]

a punch will always be a punch. a kick will always be a kick. who cares what you call it?

kickboxing, kung fu, karate, mma, boxing...

[Yum Cha]

It matters because people might see it and go "cool, I want to learn that!" And then someone tells them it's TMA so they go to the wrong school. Knowledgeable people have the responsibility to help those that want to learn.

Plus, TMA people (at least on this forum) have a habit of seeing MMA techniques that are nothing like their own TMA techniques, and saying "oh yeah, that guy is doing TMA!"

I went to a heavy metal concert last weekend. I bet if I had taken some TMA people there they would've said "wow, that guitarrist is really good at playing country music!" http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

Hang on, I'm certainly not saying if you see something done well in top level combat sport, you can pick the same skill up at your local macdojo or mckwoon...
Or that practicing 'monkey searching for ants' is going to give you the finger of death....

What I'm saying is that all roads lead to the same place, and you shouldn't compare novice TCMA with Pro MMA without having some sense of provenance. People want to see TCMA work, put it in the hands of a pro fighter and you'll see it work. You reckon its boxing, I've never seen boxing like that before, and we know a JKD influence is in there. I guess it is what it is, opinions may vary.

In essence, writing off TCMA as antiquated or ineffective in modern combat is a mistake. To my mind, combat is about surprise, advantage and overwhelming force. Having something in your bag the other guy hasn't seen or isn't prepared for sorts things out in a hurry.

Its all about learning to make it work.

Now, I could extrapolate more from personal experience, but not having video or signed affidavits in support, I just can't be bothered with the noise that is sure to ensue.

Robinhood: You can't kick when you are falling backwards. Yes, his failing was backing up on the railroad tracks. There is another video of a monster coming after a Russian Mob looking guy, Crocop's brother? He comes out with a similar attack and gets sidestepped and knocked out. Pay your money, take your chances...

Personally, I was wondering why he didn't go under and shoot...

[-N-]

Plus, TMA people (at least on this forum) have a habit of seeing MMA techniques that are nothing like their own TMA techniques, and saying "oh yeah, that guy is doing TMA!"[/URL]

TMA and MMA can do something the same way without the other guy having to be TMA.

[-N-]

If you go by the history of Praying Mantis, it was the MMA of its time.

According to Brendan Lai, back then PM was sometimes known as "the improved Shaolin".

[TenTigers]

I went to a heavy metal concert last weekend. I bet if I had taken some TMA people there they would've said "wow, that guitarrist is really good at playing country music!" http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

sure, if it was Zakk Wylde!:D

[ginosifu]

It matters because people might see it and go "cool, I want to learn that!" And then someone tells them it's TMA so they go to the wrong school. Knowledgeable people have the responsibility to help those that want to learn.

Plus, TMA people (at least on this forum) have a habit of seeing MMA techniques that are nothing like their own TMA techniques, and saying "oh yeah, that guy is doing TMA!"

I went to a heavy metal concert last weekend. I bet if I had taken some TMA people there they would've said "wow, that guitarrist is really good at playing country music!" http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

:confused:??????????:confused:

MMA techniques are TMA techniques, just modified for sports MA.

ginosifu

[Drake]

Country and metal are both derived from Jazz, and contain a lot of the very same musical elements and structure. Your statement contradicts your stance. A metal guitarist and a country guitarist actually only have minor differences in playing styles, and could easily interchange between both subgenres of Jazz.

[wenshu]

Country and metal are both derived from Jazz, and contain a lot of the very same musical elements and structure. Your statement contradicts your stance. A metal guitarist and a country guitarist actually only have minor differences in playing styles, and could easily interchange between both subgenres of Jazz.

Nicely done.

[IronFist]

Country and metal are both derived from Jazz, and contain a lot of the very same musical elements and structure. Your statement contradicts your stance. A metal guitarist and a country guitarist actually only have minor differences in playing styles, and could easily interchange between both subgenres of Jazz.

Sure, they're related.

But they're not the same.

MMA and TMA are related.

But they're not the same.

And metal guitar and country guitar styles have fundamental differences. When was the last time a country guitarrist employed sweep picking?

A TMAist seeing an MMAist do MMA techniques and calling them TMA is like a country musician seeing a metal guy shredding and saying it's country music.

You guys have to either be trolling or drinking so much Kool-Aid you've lost touch with reality and rational thought.

I leave you with this country music guitar player video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG74eVb6V10&feature=related

[Drake]

I took Jazz guitar in college... and have been playing for years. I know what I'm talking about.

[IronFist]

I've been playing guitar since 5th grade and giving lessons since 8th.

But even if I had no experience it wouldn't change the fact that I'm right.

Same fundamentals don't = same styles

[Drake]

Of course you are.

[IronFist]

Here's a better example:

A country guitarist could not "easily" just decide to start playing in minor harmonic modes, using sweep arpeggios and 8 finger tapping techniques one day if he decided to, yet metal guitarists do these things daily. This assumes the country guy switched over to a guitar that is designed for metal. Good luck doing those things on some hollow body electric with a wide neck.

While country and metal guitar have similarities, they are not the same. They are not interchangable. They are distinctly different.

Each style musician trains the way he plays on stage.

Only in TMA do you have people who train one way (TMA stuff) and actually use it for real (in sparring) a different way (kickboxing) and then try to say it's the same. http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

That's like a metal guitarist "training" by playing open chords on an acoustic guitar when he has a concert that night where he will be expected to shred http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

Drake, I know you are trolling but sadly I think other people here are serious. :( The TMA Koolaid is delicious and some people can't stop drinking.

[Lucas]

The TMA Koolaid is delicious and some people can't stop drinking.

What?!? Do I have a red moustache or something? ;)

[wenshu]

What exactly is so efficient about an mma poser incessantly trying to convince a bunch of kung fu larpers they shouldn't practice tae kwon do?

[TenTigers]

Eddie Van Halen popularized wider and flatter necks.
Steve Howe plays a large body electric.
Most country players play Strats and Teles anyway.
Minor arpeggios,sweep picking, are actually classical guitar techniques.
If they were implemented into rock, they can certainly be implemented into country.
Witness the Hel1ecasters.

[Lucas]

http://api.ning.com/files/k4xMjXq43Pg-wGkTmhlqvuuRXPjSno80qJMLLw51cwjllPsL37BhBYsTg9yRoS pLEgUyAQs5W6my9HhgfgbofTqfobbaRtEP/dimebagdarrell.jpg

[Drake]

Eddie Van Halen popularized wider and flatter necks.
Steve Howe plays a large body electric.
Most country players play Strats and Teles anyway.
Minor arpeggios,sweep picking, are actually classical guitar techniques.
If they were implemented into rock, they can certainly be implemented into country.
Witness the Hel1ecasters.

I was agreeing with him so he'd stop. Now look what you've done...

[-N-]

This clip has been put out there, showing a successful straight blast attack, Belfort v Silva

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_x2rqKc&feature=player_embedded

Anybody out there not see a TCMA influence in there? Where did that technique come from? Watching the footwork too.

Even 10 year old TCMA kids do that :)

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/kf2_a_GIFSoup_com.gif

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/kf1_a_GIFSoupcom.gif

[TenTigers]

I was agreeing with him so he'd stop. Now look what you've done...
Yeah, well he was talking about guitars and Rock n'Roll.
It's important!

[-N-]

I started my "1 step 3 punches" training when I was 11 years old.


We actually make the students run and do sprints while throwing their punches and/or kicks. From one end of the basketball court to the other.

[...]

Still, it's all basically alternating footwork reverse punch.

Here's a Praying Mantis student stepping through the footwork. Not saying it's exclusive to TCMA or anybody else. (Note the full range of body torque that I had mentioned before.)

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/kf3_a_GIFSoupcom.gif

It was good enough for a 130lb kid to run some 200+ lb adult blackbelts, MMA, and boxers into the wall at open mat sparring.

[Fa Xing]

If your arm is longer than my leg, maybe !.

Why do these guys just back straight away, isn't that the first thing to learn don't go straight back?

To much offense not enough defense in most of these fights, I think Machida is one of the few that seems to have defense qualities.

If you end up in a defensive mode, it is very difficult to get out of that unless someone lets up on you. However, you're right, don't back straight up either.

Kicking someone in the nuts, BTW, is a lot harder than most people think it is. I don't know when the last time it was that you sparred or fought someone but I usually have a pretty good idea of what I can actually pull off.

[Robinhood]

If you end up in a defensive mode, it is very difficult to get out of that unless someone lets up on you. However, you're right, don't back straight up either.

Kicking someone in the nuts, BTW, is a lot harder than most people think it is. I don't know when the last time it was that you sparred or fought someone but I usually have a pretty good idea of what I can actually pull off.

As per the video, just for the guy to raise his foot as he leaned back would hit that guy there. But the rules don't allow that, that is the just of the original comment.

Any strike done without proper opportunity should not work, your right there.

[-N-]

As per the video, just for the guy to raise his foot as he leaned back would hit that guy there. But the rules don't allow that, that is the just of the original comment.

Here, the person backing up turned sideways and had enough room to use a heel kick to the thigh to stop the attack.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/kf2_a_GIFSoup_com.gif

[Fa Xing]

As per the video, just for the guy to raise his foot as he leaned back would hit that guy there. But the rules don't allow that, that is the just of the original comment.

Any strike done without proper opportunity should not work, your right there.

That's fine but a groin kick is a hard kick to pull off in that scenario, you are much better doing something similar to what -N- showed in his post; stop the attack.

[David Jamieson]

Continuous and unrelenting attack is found in almost all styles of tcma.

with the exception of some of the Buddhist based martial arts which are virtually exclusively defensive, meaning they do not use continuous attack and instead opt for reactive evasion, escape or restraining techniques.

Yes, that whole fighting without fighting thing does exist.
In my opinion, to be able to defend yourself without being harmed and without doing harm is the highest form of martial skill.

very difficult to achieve. But doable depending on who is attacking you. It seems the more aggressive your attacker and the more skilled they are with that aggression behind it, the more difficult it is to not use continuous attack to stifle their attack.

[-N-]

Continuous and unrelenting attack is found in almost all styles of tcma.

TCMA and even non TCMA.


In my opinion, to be able to defend yourself without being harmed and without doing harm is the highest form of martial skill.

very difficult to achieve. But doable depending on who is attacking you. It seems the more aggressive your attacker and the more skilled they are with that aggression behind it, the more difficult it is to not use continuous attack to stifle their attack.

+1

[-N-]

From TCMA training perspective, we make the student run more smoothly so they have more leg drive, more quad flex and not so wide and stiff leg like in the video. And especially more torso turn for power. We push the range of motion because when under pressure, people tend to tighten up and cut their motions short.

Still, it's all basically alternating footwork reverse punch.

Here's a pic that shows how bow and arrow stance becomes running footwork and even a kick.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/download-4.gif

This was from a sparring session, but that sequence can be used as a drill to train a lot of different sparring dynamics.

Straight line retreat is not optimal, but it's good for making it difficult for the defender.

Here's alternating footwork, reverse punch, uppercut.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/download-2.gif

[-N-]

That's fine but a groin kick is a hard kick to pull off in that scenario, you are much better doing something similar to what -N- showed in his post; stop the attack.

White shirt got a good launch off that thigh kick to bounce himself more out of the way, haha.

And he jammed the other kid's right forward leg completely back and disrupted the attack.

[Fa Xing]

White shirt got a good launch off that thigh kick to bounce himself more out of the way, haha.

And he jammed the other kid's right forward leg completely back and disrupted the attack.

Yeah, that may have been what I would have done if I was unable to side-step out of the way. A groin kick would be nice but probably not as easy to pull off, better to get better position first.

[Syn7]

Straight line retreat is not optimal, but it's good for making it difficult for the defender.

word, circle out, always. unless your trapping or simply don't have another choice.
for alot of folks a backward retreat is sort of an automated response to something overly threatening. ive used it to win fights a few times. move in quick enough and they will be falling over themselves. as long as you have the presence of mind to keep your pocket and NOT go down with them you'll prolly win right there. i would only go down with them if i knew nobody else was around and i didnt feel i would be able to finish it with strikes right then and there for whatever reason. but the last thing i wanna do is ground fight on the steet with all those unknowns unless i absolutely have to. i love grappling and its very useful on the street, but staying on ur feet is mos def the prudent aproach.

[-N-]

word, circle out, always. unless your trapping or simply don't have another choice.
for alot of folks a backward retreat is sort of an automated response to something overly threatening. ive used it to win fights a few times. move in quick enough and they will be falling over themselves. as long as you have the presence of mind to keep your pocket and NOT go down with them you'll prolly win right there. i would only go down with them if i knew nobody else was around and i didnt feel i would be able to finish it with strikes right then and there for whatever reason. but the last thing i wanna do is ground fight on the steet with all those unknowns unless i absolutely have to. i love grappling and its very useful on the street, but staying on ur feet is mos def the prudent aproach.

+1 all that.

For training purpose we do have the student work on straight line retreat though. We introduce circling/pivoting out later.

Mantis loves to blitz in deep to make the other person fall all over themselves. We want the student to be able do straight line retreat faster than the other person can advance.

My teacher used to laugh and insult us when we trained our attacking footwork because he could retreat backwards faster than we could blitz forward. He'd make us chase him and he'd be laughing at us the whole time.

[Dragonzbane76]

word, circle out, always. unless your trapping or simply don't have another choice.
for alot of folks a backward retreat is sort of an automated response to something overly threatening. ive used it to win fights a few times. move in quick enough and they will be falling over themselves. as long as you have the presence of mind to keep your pocket and NOT go down with them you'll prolly win right there. i would only go down with them if i knew nobody else was around and i didnt feel i would be able to finish it with strikes right then and there for whatever reason. but the last thing i wanna do is ground fight on the steet with all those unknowns unless i absolutely have to. i love grappling and its very useful on the street, but staying on ur feet is mos def the prudent aproach.

syn7, good feedback. I love to grapple myself but understand that most times in the "street" it's not very smart. not to say that sometimes you might be blind sided and taken down, but knowing that you should always train in a realistic manner and prepare for such events. understanding the ground and training it gives you the advantage. knowing what a takedown feels like, and knowing how to deal with it can mean the difference. Believing that you understand something before you've felt it from someone that knows how to give it is a fault most of the traditional community falls victim to. the age old arguement of takedown defense is on going here in many forms. One time with an experienced person in grappling takedowns is enough for most to realize that you need some kind of understanding or you will fall victim to it. work all levels and be prepared is my thoughts.

[KungFuBiker]

Why do these discussions constantly devolve into “my school/style is better then yours?” A 5 page thread and for at least 3 of the pages you guys sound like junior high students involved in a cross town rivalry.
You would think that in a field which is supposed to teach respect and discipline (among other things) there would be a more mature dialog.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Why do these discussions constantly devolve into “my school/style is better then yours?” A 5 page thread and for at least 3 of the pages you guys sound like junior high students involved in a cross town rivalry.
You would think that in a field which is supposed to teach respect and discipline (among other things) there would be a more mature dialog.

I take it your new to the internet:p

[David Jamieson]

Here's where you are both right and wrong at the same time guitar players...

1 Ionian (I)
2 Dorian (II)
3 Phrygian (III)
4 Lydian (IV)
5 Mixolydian (V)
6 Aeolian (VI)
7 Locrian (VII)

These are the modes. They are 7. They apply to ALL western music. If you know these seven modes, you can sit with any jazz, blues, rock, metal, folk, what ever. You can sit and fit by knowing these.

Now, back to fighting. :)

[Kevin73]

These types of discussion always frustrate me.

There are NO techniques found in MMA that aren't found in a traditional MA. That's where MMA evolved from...TMA's. MMA's biggest advantage isn't in their techniques, it is in their training methods. They practice and practice to hone the skills to apply their techniques on someone trying their best to not allow that.

MMA is more concerned with training techniques and ideas that are high percentage and not concerned with many of the other things that are part of learning a "style".

As to Vitor Belforts punching vs. Silva? That is just the California Blitz (also called many other things) that was popular in tournament fighting in the 60's and 70's. That type of thing was around even before then too. Rapidly closing with someone and alternating punching isn't really style exclusive.

Also, the Straight Blast Gym IS related to JKD and claims to teach those concepts.

[pateticorecords]

I sometimes don't understand what the arguments are really about, since they are the same arguments as in previous posts... the continuous beating of a dead horse will not change anyone's mind.

There is validity to everyone's point of view. I have done TCMA for most of my life but my approach has always been to cross train in as many arts possible, go to seminars on different arts, exchange ideas with fellow martial artists that practice different arts... what better way to understand what one particular style does than to experience it first hand.

Adding grappling, wrestling, submission training to your routine only enhances your skills... apply what you know and you have the upper hand. E.G. grapple and apply Chin Na joint locks, use pressure points, etc. to better manipulate your opponent.

Absorb what you find useful and modify it to your fighting style. If something works it works... might as well add it to your arsenal.

I think the main issue is that TMAs are viewed as stagnate nowadays by the modern sport combatants because they want to achieve results in a shorter period of time, which is understandable... why would you want to practice 7 years to gain the primary fighting skills, that you can become proficient in, in a shorter amount of time?

However, with the traditional training you also gain a better understanding of techniques, principles of movement, and their variables.

So, they should walk together... :)

"So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.- Sun Tzu (The Art of War)"

[Ray Pina]

Wow..... straight punching.

[Lucas]

Wow..... straight punching.

right??????

[bawang]

MMA's biggest advantage isn't in their techniques, it is in their training methods.

no. its in the mind. man.

[Kevin73]

no. its in the mind. man.

Which came first the chicken or the egg? I would say that it is the training methods that give the proper mindset to most people. Some people have it already, but many don't.

Even in a TMA, it is the training that will bring out that mindset if done properly to instill it. The McDojo will not bring out that type of mindset if you don't know how to tap into it already.

[Fa Xing]

Which came first the chicken or the egg?

I believe it's been determined that the egg came first (sort of).

Just being a smartass.

Back on topic.

[Syn7]

I believe it's been determined that the egg came first (sort of).

Just being a smartass.

Back on topic.

naw, clearly it was the chicken.!

[Fa Xing]

naw, clearly it was the chicken.!

LOL, unfortunately single-cell comes before multi-cell (to oversimplify the matter, lol).

[David Jamieson]

eggs came about after mutations of multi celled beings caused it.

[Syn7]

eggs came about after mutations of multi celled beings caused it.

this is my point.

there is no chicken egg without the chicken.

i suppose you could argue that the beast that chickens evolved from laid eggs. lol

feeling dizzy yet?

[Fa Xing]

this is my point.

there is no chicken egg without the chicken.

i suppose you could argue that the beast that chickens evolved from laid eggs. lol

feeling dizzy yet?

They did, they're called dinosaurs, but that's not the point.

It would in a very, very, very, very, very oversimplified way be the egg that came first because of that two haploid cells come together to form a diploid cell.

The "egg" is representative of the single-celled organism that started it all, which in hypothesis is the result of good ol' fashion biochemistry, a reaction between organic elements.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Phylogenetic_tree.svg/450px-Phylogenetic_tree.svg.png

[Yum Cha]

reptiles lay eggs, reptiles predate chickens, therefore the egg came first.

pfft!

[IronFist]

The egg came first.

At some point something that wasn't quite a chicken laid an egg that had a mutation and a chicken came from that egg.

If the chicken came first, that means that there were first chickens who had babies in a way other than from eggs and then one day one chicken laid an egg and that chicken survived and all the other chickens died and therefore only the egg-laying genetics were passed on. It seems more likely that the egg came first.

[-N-]

Reptiles are traditional. Chickens are modern, but got their eggs from reptiles.

[Syn7]

reptiles lay eggs, reptiles predate chickens, therefore the egg came first.

pfft!

yeah but was it a chicken egg?

to be a chicken egg does it have to contain a chicken or be made by one?


and saying chickens came from "dinosaurs". now that, my friend, is an oversimplification.

[Fa Xing]

and saying chickens came from "dinosaurs". now that, my friend, is an oversimplification.

Yes, yes it is.

However, we know that closest living ancestor (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3340709/Chicken-is-T-rexs-closes-living-relative.html) to Tyrannosaurus Rex is none other than the chicken lol.

http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz177/fhmn777/nooooooo.jpg

[Syn7]

Yes, yes it is.

However, we know that closest living ancestor (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3340709/Chicken-is-T-rexs-closes-living-relative.html) to Tyrannosaurus Rex is none other than the chicken lol.

http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz177/fhmn777/nooooooo.jpg

lol........... a Tyrannosaurus Chicken would be quite scary, IMO!!!

[Fa Xing]

lol........... a Tyrannosaurus Chicken would be quite scary, IMO!!!

It just makes you think that if there was this cataclysmic event, and a massive amount of our species were wiped from the earth and what's left doesn't do so well evolutionary-wise; what do you think we would end up as in 65 million years?

I would think that since we have developed such a strong intelligence that we don't up like our version of the chicken, lol.

[Yum Cha]

yeah but was it a chicken egg?

to be a chicken egg does it have to contain a chicken or be made by one?


and saying chickens came from "dinosaurs". now that, my friend, is an oversimplification.

"the Chicken or the Egg" not "The Chicken, or the CHICKEN egg."

The answer to the latter is in the statement.:)