Bai-Si...?

[TenTigers]

Do we know for a fact that our Great Grandmasters bai-si'd to their Sifus?
Did Wong Fei-Hung (or Wong Tai) or even Lam Sai-Wing? Did Tarm-Sam? Did Yin-Fu? Yip Man? etc, etc?
It's funny how now we make such a fuss over it, and how you cannot claim lineage, etc unless you have gone through ceremony. Most of the teachers we know of way back when, certainly "trained" under their Sifu, but may not have gone through ceremony at all.
Of course, there is the standard argument,"That is how all teachers accepted their students, through serving tea, etc." I get that. But is it an all-encompassing answer?
What are your thoughts?

[Golden Arms]

I can't speak for Hung Gar, but for Pak Mei, there is a vast difference between what is taught to a non Bai Ci'd student and to one that has done so. I know that my Sifu has done it, and his Sifu before him as well.

[dirtyrat]

i've know a couple a guys who underwent the baisi and they told their sifu still held out on them.

conversely, i've know guys who didn't and they know how to use their stuff...

[TenTigers]

that's not the question.
The question is, did our Grandteachers, and Great Grandteachers actually bai-si?
(although you did mention that your Sifu did bai-si)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't think they did because they didn't have to.
From what I gather from my teacher and his brother, when my teacher was "commercial" he taught what was "wanted", it was still hung Kuen and it was good, but it was what the students wanted and liked to do.
With their "closed door" students he would teach the finer points AND the gungs.
When he retired and took up only private students he taught then everything as if they were "bai-si" (which the older ones were) but he never really required any of the newer students to take the Bai-si because he was teaching them the same.
He did however require that every new student bring something to the training ( other MA experience typically).

[CLFNole]

If you are going back a lot of generations I would say yes it is likely that they bai-si'd since it was part of the culture. Over the past generations I think it has lessened as kung fu and the sifus have become somewhat more westernized. Some old-school sifus might still do it but I don't think it is the same as it once was.

[Minghequan]

I don't think many of them did. I think they simply taught.

I also don't think many passed on certificates of proficiency ... again simply just teaching that art would have been enough.

[YouKnowWho]

that's not the question.
The question is, did our Grandteachers, and Great Grandteachers actually bai-si?
(although you did mention that your Sifu did bai-si)

My teacher's teacher married to his teacher's daughter. My teacher married to his teacher's daughter. Since my teacher's daughter had her own girlfriend, that tradition was broken.

[hskwarrior]

My teacher's teacher married to his teacher's daughter. My teacher married to his teacher's daughter. Since my teacher's daughter had her own girlfriend, that tradition was broken.

you should have joined to party bro....have a blast hahaha

[TenTigers]

In actuality, bai-si is simply the standard method of accepting a student. Back then, all students who walked in the door bai-si'd. It's standard etiquette/protocol.
Nowadays, many Sifus use bai-si for only their indoor disciples, referring to other students as simply students.
Sooooo......
"Teach me for one day, he is your Sifu for life," right?
"yes, this is true."
"So, that means I am his student for life as well, right?"
"Well, yeah. I suppose that's true."
"So, teach me for one day...I can claim lineage, right?"
"NO!!! What are you crazy?"

Hey, ya can't have it both ways! Either you are or you aren't.

:D

[YouKnowWho]

bai-si?

The Golden Sun's Bai Si ceremony.

http://v.taiji.net.cn/player.php?id=848

[xiao yao]

hi

i live in yantai in china and train mantis here. my shifu said in the old days, a master would pass on the whole system to those who had done the baishi ceremony. they would teach other people too, but more like bits and pieces (those people often learnt little bits from several masters and created their own styles).
nowadays, baishi is more for tradition, so a master can pass the system on, but its practiced less and less as they teach more openly than in the past.
old china was a dangerous place, and if someone committed a serious crime, his master could be held responsible, so baishi was a way to make sure a master only selected good people, to protect himself as much as anything. only through baishi could someone legitimately claim to be associated with his master

[xiao yao]

its a ceremony where a student is formally accepted by a master and means that student becomes part of the "inner or closed door" group and inherits the whole of the masters teaching.

i dont think its necessary outside of china other than keeping tradition or proving lineage. a lot of people who teach kung fu in the west have never baishi to their teacher

[YouKnowWho]

1. What’s Bai-Si...?

Bai Si is someone who wants to organize a group of "biting dogs" (like the Dumbledore's Army in Harry Potter movie), so he can ask them to beat up whoever that he wish.

[Brule]

From what i understand, nowadays it's used a lot for the sake of appearances and a little extra coin. To answer TT's question, i don't think any of my sifu's and their sifu's bai-si'd.

If i may quote Bawang, or at least assume this is what he'd say:

"Bai-si is how the Chinese steal the gullible white man's moneh's, much respec for the originator."

[Golden Arms]

Bai Ci appears to be one form of quality control. The fact that most in the west never did and their teachers never did goes hand in hand with why its embarrassing to say I practice Kung Fu.

Another culprit of course is that somehow people got the idea that you can be doing a "martial art" without ever having learned how to fight with it.

Would you go learn how to cook from someone that was a crappy chef?

[ngokfei]

Sadly many see the cultural Bai Si ceremony as a Teaching license or certificate.

nah...........

Like said before its mainly used today both here and in Asia as a means to get some extra $$.

I've known more and more individuals who have undergone the Bai Si Ceremony under some very prestigous teachers and today either no longer train under them & style or simply joined another school in the same lineage.

Its all comes down to Skill. either you have it or you don't and you can only blame yourself. If you really are training hard and going the extra mile to understand the culture (learning the language, reading, etc) and your teach is holding back, time to move on. Have you ever noticed that the founders and top exponents of said styles always have had multiple teachers.

but I will also take the otherside of the discussion as you have alot of individuals teaching today who are trying really hard to link up to said lineage without ever completing the style officially (world of videos and youtube). So you have them who say that the Bai Si is not necessary mainly because they didn't have one

[bawang]

the difference between bai si today and in ancient times is that traditionally you can bai si as many people as you want.

whereas in modern times, they expect you to stay with only one teacher for life. this is to milk you.

about "the full system", ancient martial artists who have actually killed people all say there are only about 30 techniques you can remember and use well.


arent white people supposed to question authority and love freedom? why you all wanna be indentured to a shady cantonese for life?

[ginosifu]

about "the full system", ancient martial artists who have actually killed people all say there are only about 30 techniques you can remember and use well.

You are not fully correct there Bawang. Yes there are only a few techniques you can effectively use, but some systems were taught to the masses. Military systems had hundreds or even thousands of techniques because there was so many soldiers. Not every soldier used the same set of techniques.

Warrior Monks from the Temples were taught the same way as well. Thousands of Monks going thru the system only perfected a few set of techniqes, but there were many Thousands of techniques to meet the various needs of so many different types of peoples.

This is why there is much material out there nowadays.

Wing Lam Sifu only Bai Si'ed like one guy I think (it was not my teacher). My teacher has not Bai Si anyone. Says it is not that important.

ginosifu

[wenshu]

ancient martial artists who have actually killed people all say there are only about 30 techniques you can remember and use well.

True historical fact: when Venerable Qi said something to this effect he was gnawing on a Wokou skull.

nom nom nom

[Golden Arms]

Wing Lam Sifu only Bai Si'ed like one guy I think (it was not my teacher). My teacher has not Bai Si anyone. Says it is not that important.

ginosifu

You think its not important?

[mooyingmantis]

the difference between bai si today and in ancient times is that traditionally you can bai si as many people as you want.

whereas in modern times, they expect you to stay with only one teacher for life. this is to milk you.

about "the full system", ancient martial artists who have actually killed people all say there are only about 30 techniques you can remember and use well.


arent white people supposed to question authority and love freedom? why you all wanna be indentured to a shady cantonese for life?

Lots of wisdom here!

I question when and how the bai si idea started.

I will use Jiang Hua Long as an example. He studied monkey boxing during his childhood. Beginning in his teenage years, he studied mantis boxing with Liang Xue Xiang. He opened a training hall with his kung fu brother, Song Zide, after seven years of training. At about age 57 he started training in Bagua, Xingyi, Changquan and Tongbeiquan. He broke off from Master Song and opened a new training hall in a different village. Afterwards he developed the mantis principles that would become the foundation of yet a new style, Eight Step Mantis. One of his students, Hao Lian Ru (who had previous training in Lohan boxing), later started the foundation of what would become known as Taiji Meihua Mantis.

Early Mainland mantis teachers often had previous martial arts experience. Had they performed bai si with those instructors?

When they left to study mantis, did they then bai si with that instructor? Would he take them serious since they broke their relationship with their previous instructor?

I think the bai si idea is a very recent development. I would really like to see some legitimate documentation that proves otherwise.

Few systems can be legitimately traced back before the 1800s. So when did this practice really begin?

My guess, and yes it is only a guess, is that it started quite recently (last two or three generations) when teachings were opened to the public and teachers depended on making a living through CMA instruction, as well as their other careers.

As far as passing down "full systems", this is certainly recent since most forms practiced today cannot be documented before the last 150-200 years.

[ginosifu]

You think its not important?

NO

If you are going to teach..... then teach. I will not Bai Si anyone or force them to stay by my side. If they think my knowledge is important and they want to get all that I have to offer then I will stay with me.

ginosifu

[Phil Redmond]

From what i understand, nowadays it's used a lot for the sake of appearances and a little extra coin. To answer TT's question, i don't think any of my sifu's and their sifu's bai-si'd.

If i may quote Bawang, or at least assume this is what he'd say:

"Bai-si is how the Chinese steal the gullible white man's moneh's, much respec for the originator."
I did Ba-Si with my Sifu and didn't pay a dime. In fact, after the ceremony he gave me a wrapped gift.

[Golden Arms]

Well to be blunt, I find it telling that many seem to be complaining that kung fu has terrible quality control, lots of fakes, etc., yet nobody believes in Bai Ci.

[ginosifu]

Well to be blunt, I find it telling that many seem to be complaining that kung fu has terrible quality control, lots of fakes, etc., yet nobody believes in Bai Ci.

I am not saying it is wrong to Bai Si. For each school or Sifu, things may be different.

I do agree with you that we need some type of quality control. How to do it????? I really do not know. Back in the late 80's and early 90's I was talking with my sifu about trying unify and standardize kung fu.

My Sifu said it would not work cuz It would force everyone to teach the same basics and follow the same standard forms. This would take away the freedom that kung fu has right now.

Everyone would have to take the same Instructor course and follow the same protocol for opening up schools. Classes would follow certain structures and curriculums etc etc. This is too constricting for Kung Fu and does not allow for freedom of expression etc etc.

ginosifu

[mooyingmantis]

Well to be blunt, I find it telling that many seem to be complaining that kung fu has terrible quality control, lots of fakes, etc., yet nobody believes in Bai Ci.

I always love sweeping generalizations!

"many...lots...nobody..."

BTW, my point was not that bai si was a bad thing or lacking in merit. I just question whether it has a long history and whether it really makes a difference in a practical way.

How would you know if the person to whom you bai si has done so with his instructor? Low quality and fakes are just as prevalent among the Chinese as they are among the cultures who now receive their teachings.

[xiao yao]

so, in order to get that quality control, i think bai shi is the best way. if someone can claim legitimate lineage from a good master, who has recognised his/her skill and given their permission to open a school, surely that is a good sign that it will be a good school.

i mean you could just go by the old skool way of fighting your way to a reputation, but that wont be a guarantee you have the qualities of a good teacher; you have ability, but not necessarily knowledge or skill to pass on. and that wouldnt be a guarantee of teaching genuine kung fu, it could just be mma or karate with fancy names attached to it.

i think bai shi is a part of traditional chinese culture, its part of respect to your teacher which is a confucian value. what makes kung fu unique is not just fighting, but the tradition and culture that go with it.

[ginosifu]

so, in order to get that quality control, i think bai shi is the best way. if someone can claim legitimate lineage from a good master, who has recognised his/her skill and given their permission to open a school, surely that is a good sign that it will be a good school.

i mean you could just go by the old skool way of fighting your way to a reputation, but that wont be a guarantee you have the qualities of a good teacher; you have ability, but not necessarily knowledge or skill to pass on. and that wouldnt be a guarantee of teaching genuine kung fu, it could just be mma or karate with fancy names attached to it.

i think bai shi is a part of traditional chinese culture, its part of respect to your teacher which is a confucian value. what makes kung fu unique is not just fighting, but the tradition and culture that go with it.

Bai Si is a good idea but how do control who does Bai Si? Any charlatan can give a Bai Si ceremony. There is no way to prove if the teacher is a fake or not. Bai Si does not prove anything or provide a type of quality control.

ginosifu

[mooyingmantis]

Bai Si is a good idea but how do control who does Bai Si? Any charlatan can give a Bai Si ceremony. There is no way to prove if the teacher is a fake or not. Bai Si does not prove anything or provide a type of quality control.

ginosifu

I must go with Gino on this one. Many true masters may be people that few other people have ever heard of. Conversely, some of the "big names" are not famous due to skill, but marketing. Someone may say, "I did bai si with xxxx". Everyone knows xxxx because he/she had a student with wonderful writing skills who made xxxx famous by sending articles into magazines like Black Belt, Inside Kung Fu and our beloved KFM. However, once you have trained with xxxx, you realize that they are mediocre at best. Fame does not equal quality instruction, nor does it mean xxxx would be a good person with which to bai si.

Plus, there is the fact that kung fu is so fractured. Take praying mantis for example. Mantis instructors in the U.S. are quite known for their inability to work together. If one is invited as a guest to a tournament, others will not go and visa-versa. If you bai si with one, you will be discredited by others. So, in my opinion a bai si ceremony is only relevant for the group you are inducted into and means little to outsiders.

[YouKnowWho]

- Without Bai Si, when someone challenges your teacher, you can just watch and smile.
- With Bai Si, when someone challenges your Sifu, you have to fight before the challenger gets to your Sifu.

[Golden Arms]

YouKnowWho,

That was how I was taught by my Hung Sifu as well. If you are the newest, you will be the first up to fight if someone walks in to challenge. It provides a good motivation to train hard and again, quality control due to that motivated training.

To the posters that think Bai Ci is not worthwhile,

If not, what is a better arrangement? It sounds like you agree that there is a problem with the quality in Kung Fu. Do you propose a solution?

[mooyingmantis]

- Without Bai Si, when someone challenges your teacher, you can just watch and smile.
- With Bai Si, when someone challenges your Sifu, you have to fight before the challenger gets to your Sifu.

Anytime someone came into my school with a challenge, they fought ME. I never believed in using my students as shields. It worked for me 33 years ago when I opened my first school, it still works for me today.


It sounds like you agree that there is a problem with the quality in Kung Fu. Do you propose a solution?

I disagree that generally there is a problem with the quality in kung fu schools. Others may not teach like I do, but nearly every other school that I have walked into to observe was a decent school. Where are all these bad schools others are talking about? I just haven't seen them.

My solution would be to continue teaching a quality curriculum and let others do what they want. They are not my concern. The more $hitty instructors there are out there, the more real deal instructors will shine.

[Golden Arms]

Anytime someone came into my school with a challenge, they fought ME. I never believed in using my students as shields. It worked for me 33 years ago when I opened my first school, it still works for me today.



I disagree that generally there is a problem with the quality in kung fu schools. Others may not teach like I do, but nearly every other school that I have walked into to observe was a decent school. Where are all these bad schools others are talking about? I just haven't seen them.

My solution would be to continue teaching a quality curriculum and let others do what they want. They are not my concern. The more $hitty instructors there are out there, the more real deal instructors will shine.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Martial arts are combative in nature, and the way mentioned above where challengers fight the students puts an element of pressure and reality into the training that is sorely lacking in many schools.

My Sifu is important to me and anyone that came for him would have to get through me to get there, I don't need a Chinese tradition to feel that way, I would hope that any serious student loyal to their teacher would feel the same way.

As for the bad schools, I am not speaking on this as a youtube/armchair guy. I have made it a point to visit and work out with any martial art/artists I have been curious about every chance I had since I started training, including in Thailand and China. There are some diamonds in the rough that train hard and produce results, but there are also tons of misinformed, dancing, floppy Kung Fu people out there that are not only perfectly happy doing it that way, but in propagating that garbage for the next generation. Youtube is even worse for the most part unfortunately.

I take my training seriously and while I agree that if the quality is low then good teachers will shine, I would prefer that the quality bar was set high across the board, so that the teachers that shine are phenomenal.

[YouKnowWho]

Anytime someone came into my school with a challenge, they fought ME.

You can do it today but can you still do it when you are 80 years old?

One XingYi master was challenged by someone when he was in his 70th. Since he didn't teach and didn't have his own disciples, he had to asked his XingYi brother to send one of their disciple to handle the challenge.

It's pretty sad if you don't have your own disciples when you are old. :(

[Yao Sing]

YouKnowWho,
To the posters that think Bai Ci is not worthwhile,

If not, what is a better arrangement? It sounds like you agree that there is a problem with the quality in Kung Fu. Do you propose a solution?

How do you see the Bai-Si addressing quality in MA? Crappy students can Bai-Si all over town and never get very far but still impress others with pics of himself with a bunch of known Sifu.

[TenTigers]

How do you see the Bai-Si addressing quality in MA? Crappy students can Bai-Si all over town and never get very far but still impress others with pics of himself with a bunch of known Sifu.
yep. you can be the worst student under the best Sifu. What's that worth?
A well-known wck Sifu from these parts has a bai-si for students who can pay the fee, even on day one. "Special Students" get the key, a series of vhs (this was a while ago)and manuals, maybe a decoder ring...
Another "well-known master," has different "gates" with fees for each one.
You can bai-si, ahh...but that doesn't get you everything.
For that, you must be an heir.

[mooyingmantis]

You can do it today but can you still do it when you are 80 years old?

Probably will have to run over them with my wheelchair by then. :D


It's pretty sad if you don't have your own disciples when you are old. :(

I have two students that have been with me for about 34 years. They still consider me to be their Shifu, but I consider them to be brothers, not disciples. I am not Jesus, I don't need disciples.

[YouKnowWho]

I am not Jesus, I don't need disciples.

I don't have any disciples either. If anybody dares to touch me, I'll sue him. :D

[xiao yao]

theres not really a black and white answer

im for bai shi, as i think it is part of the tradition, but obviously people take advantage of that as much as they take advantage of using lots of forms to keep people interested.

it seems like whatever procedure you put in place, people are gonna take advantage and milk it.

ive heard of certain masters in china who expect their disciples to hand over huge sums of money whenever requested... a certain mantis master decided to get involved in real estate, and all his disciples were expected to give him like 10,000rmb each (about £1000, not too sure in $) which is about 4 months salary for a middle class chinese person

my point was just if bai shi was done properly, it would be a good way to see a teacher comes from a legitimate line. but i was kind of thinking out loud and hadnt made a conclusive statement

[mooyingmantis]

my point was just if bai shi was done properly, it would be a good way to see a teacher comes from a legitimate line.

And that is a legitimate point.

[omarthefish]

Lots of wisdom here!

I question when and how the bai si idea started.

[snip]

I think the bai si idea is a very recent development. I would really like to see some legitimate documentation that proves otherwise.


http://mall.cnki.net/reference/ref_readerItem.aspx?bid=R200607140&recid=R2006071400000010

Sorry it's in Chinese. Took me a **** while on the web to find a link. It is an essay on the Bai Shi ceremony as described in the "Book of Rituals - Inner Chapters" 《礼记·内则》 which is one of the classic texts required for study if you wanted to pass the government exams in ancient China. It is estimated to have been written some where between the Warring States period (6th-3rd centuries BS) and the Qin Dyanasty (mostly 3rd century BC).

So we have classic texts on the ritual that go back well over 2000 years.

[bawang]

street hoodlums and opium smokers have nothing to do with nobleman court rituals 2000 years ago.

chinese martial art is from the army and gangsters. neither has any bai si.

[hskwarrior]

street hoodlums and opium smokers have nothing to do with nobleman court rituals 2000 years ago.

stop yer hatin.......

we all know street hoodlums and opium smokers get the real wimmens. Nobleman have tiny sticks.....and are very bad lovers. ALL wimmens love the THUG LOVE....

[bawang]

they made up for it by carrying huge swords.

[ginosifu]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Martial arts are combative in nature, and the way mentioned above where challengers fight the students puts an element of pressure and reality into the training that is sorely lacking in many schools.

My Sifu is important to me and anyone that came for him would have to get through me to get there, I don't need a Chinese tradition to feel that way, I would hope that any serious student loyal to their teacher would feel the same way.

As for the bad schools, I am not speaking on this as a youtube/armchair guy. I have made it a point to visit and work out with any martial art/artists I have been curious about every chance I had since I started training, including in Thailand and China. There are some diamonds in the rough that train hard and produce results, but there are also tons of misinformed, dancing, floppy Kung Fu people out there that are not only perfectly happy doing it that way, but in propagating that garbage for the next generation. Youtube is even worse for the most part unfortunately.

I take my training seriously and while I agree that if the quality is low then good teachers will shine, I would prefer that the quality bar was set high across the board, so that the teachers that shine are phenomenal.

Again I don't see how Challenging / Fighting schools will provide quality control.

Here in the USA, Challenging Sifu's or Rivals schools is not popular. If I was to go challenge the fake kung fu guy on the West side of Cleveland, he would probably call the police because I attacked him. Then he would sue me for everything I have.

Yes, old school Kwoons used to challenge each other and this was good back in the day. How will it help keep the fakes and charlatans under control? Here in the USA 99% of all potential Kung Fu students have no clue of CMA protocol and really do not give a crap about that stuff.

In essence.... Even if I was to go challenge the fake guy down the street.... No One gives a CRAP! They will still flock to him in droves because of whatever flashy stuff he gives them or fancy weapon form he teaches them.

Bai Si has it's place and I think it is a good thing, however, for quality control or keeping fakes out ...... Nah.... won't work here.

ginosifu

[mooyingmantis]

http://mall.cnki.net/reference/ref_readerItem.aspx?bid=R200607140&recid=R2006071400000010

Sorry it's in Chinese. Took me a **** while on the web to find a link. It is an essay on the Bai Shi ceremony as described in the "Book of Rituals - Inner Chapters" 《礼记·内则》 which is one of the classic texts required for study if you wanted to pass the government exams in ancient China. It is estimated to have been written some where between the Warring States period (6th-3rd centuries BS) and the Qin Dyanasty (mostly 3rd century BC).

So we have classic texts on the ritual that go back well over 2000 years.

Thank you! I will check that out.

Though I think Bawang has a point too. :D

[jo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.....that was all very nice, back in the day of fantasy.

TODAY....RIGHT NOW...there are an uncountable number of charlatans, snake oil salesmen and outright con men who prey on the gullibility of others...while calling themselves "Sifu".

There is no shortage of fools who willingly hand over their cash to bad dance instructors who claim to be martial arts instructors.

WHO GETS TAUGHT, and WHAT they are taught has NOTHING to do with ceremony or cash these days.

Go ahead, live the fantasy...."Ohhhhh...I "Bai Si'ed" with <fillintheblank>!!!!"
...go hand over your money and live the fantasy.

CAVEAT EMPTOR.

-jo

[TenTigers]

Harsh words, Uncle Jo.
But well said and true.
:cool:

[omarthefish]

Thank you! I will check that out.

Though I think Bawang has a point too. :D
Sure he does. I did not mean to comment on Bai Shi today. I was just responding to the idea that it's a new thing. It's clearly not. How it has changed over the centuries is a different story. Also worth mentioning is that it's virtually impossible to find records of it with regards to MA. It's much more common with literary student/teacher relationships. Most of what's written in the text I cited is written primarily with that in mind. People used to apprentice academic masters far more than military experts.

[omarthefish]

...my point was just if bai shi was done properly, it would be a good way to see a teacher comes from a legitimate line. but i was kind of thinking out loud and hadnt made a conclusive statement

It tells you nothing whatsoever about the legitimacy of the line.

What is shows is that the person who did it, is, in fact, an official member of that line and not much more. A picture of a guy standing next to a famous master only proves they met the guy. It doesn't show they studied with them. Even a pic of a person training with said teacher only shows they trained with him that one time. Only a pic of the Bai Shi ceremony or a look at the quan pu can prove that a person is an official, actual, legitimate student of some particular teacher.

It still doesn't say if they are any good. It just says that the teacher/student relationship is formalized in writing.

[mooyingmantis]

It tells you nothing whatsoever about the legitimacy of the line.....It still doesn't say if they are any good. It just says that the teacher/student relationship is formalized in writing.

Across the street from where I live is a teenager who has been studying TKD since he was four years old. He is now about 15 years old. I see him leave home to train a few times a week. He has all the legitimate certificates from his organization for every belt rank. He is one of the worst martial artists I have ever seen.

Legitimacy goes not equal quality in other arts either. Even good, legitimate lines/arts can produce bad students. Conversely, even bad, illegitimate lines/arts can still produce an occasional excellent student.

[xiao yao]

i see everyones points, its not necessarily going to prove a legitimate line.

but i stick to my view that it holds its place as one (of several) ways of judging quality.... at least in china. ive seen a marked difference in quality between my shifus students and disciples.... a lot of his students are just casual part timers who want to learn some forms for health or recreation in the mornings before work. the disciples are serious about training and sacrifice a lot of time to learn the full system and are more interested in really using and exploring it. they will be the ones who will go on to become the next generation of teachers.

[Yao Sing]

Do you think they would be any different if they DIDN'T Bai-Si?

Is it the attitude of the student or the fact that they did. or didn't do, the ceremony?

[YouKnowWho]

Do you think they would be any different if they DIDN'T Bai-Si?

Is it the attitude of the student or the fact that they did. or didn't do, the ceremony?

If someone beats up one of your regular students, you may not care much. You can always say, "He is just a beginner ...". If someone beats up one of your disciples, it may concern you big time. It's not to your advantage not to train your disciples well because their names will reflect back on you.

[YouKnowWho]

TODAY....RIGHT NOW...there are an uncountable number of charlatans, snake oil salesmen and outright con men who prey on the gullibility of others...while calling themselves "Sifu".

You are talking about one extream. On the other extream, if you have opportunity to be part of the TCMA history, you don't want to miss that chance either.

[xiao yao]

well, its the attitude of the student that counts, but its also the attitude thats caused them to be disciples. either the shifu has seen talent and asked them to bai shi, or they have requested to bai shi, so as to get more knowledge.
the two go hand in hand in china.

and yes, people can baishi to more than one shifu, but it would be better etiquette to get permission from the former shifu, otherwise you would break ties.

[omarthefish]

i see everyones points, its not necessarily going to prove a legitimate line.

but i stick to my view that it holds its place as one (of several) ways of judging quality.... .
Yes. Sure. I just meant to draw some clear lines around what is specifically proves. On it's own, it's just not enough. It's just one of several tools. Also, to judge quality of what? Of the student or of his teacher? The Bai Shi shows that the teacher recognizes the student but it doesn't say anything about the quality of that teacher.


Across the street from where I live is a teenager who has been studying TKD since he was four years old. He is now about 15 years old. I see him leave home to train a few times a week. He has all the legitimate certificates from his organization for every belt rank. He is one of the worst martial artists I have ever seen.
That's pretty analogous. A "certificate of authenticity" or a metaphorical diploma of some sort is only going to be as good as the organization/person who issued it.

My own Shifu, for example, makes pretty much everyone Bai Shi. You can take a class here and there or attend seminars without it but any long term student who expects any one on one training at all does a Bai Shi. So, in his case, raw beginners have all done the Bai Shi. Then you have the Quan Pu. Everyone has one of those too but everyone's content is different. You could go 2 or 3 years without it having any content. Little by little, over time, he lets you copy parts of "THE" quanpun into your personal quanpu. So the quanpu say a lot more about your "status" than the Bai Shi.

As for the money issue, a cash gift to Shifu is part of the ceremony but nobody will tell you how much to give. The specific amount is completely up to you. When asked for advice on how much to give one time, my answer was, "It should be enough that you feel really generous but not so much that it's a financial burden."

Anyways, outta time. Maybe more late.

[TenTigers]

You are talking about one extream. On the other extream, if you have opportunity to be part of the TCMA history, you don't want to miss that chance either.
ok, that given...what if you didn't bai-si, but surpass your Sifu in knowledge and skill?
(obviously a hypothetical question. One would never say such a thing, but just for argument's sake)

[YouKnowWho]

ok, that given...what if you didn't bai-si, but surpass your Sifu in knowledge and skill?
(obviously a hypothetical question. One would never say such a thing, but just for argument's sake)
How can that be possible? Where will your knowledge come from? From another teacher?

[xiao yao]

"How can that be possible? Where will your knowledge come from? From another teacher?"

doesnt that happen every generation. each successor adds his own knowledge and experience.... maybe he learnt something else before, or he just took his own fighting experience, or knowledge in qigong whatever to add to and improve the system.

[jo]

"How can that be possible? Where will your knowledge come from? From another teacher?"

doesnt that happen every generation. each successor adds his own knowledge and experience.... maybe he learnt something else before, or he just took his own fighting experience, or knowledge in qigong whatever to add to and improve the system.

REALLY? Seems like each sucessor forgets or leaves stuff out. :rolleyes:\

Most martial arts schools are glorified dance halls where the two-man tango and cha-cha are taught instead of fighting arts.

Do you REALLY believe that martial arts are better NOW than 200 years ago when people had to actually fight and not just dance?

-jo

[TenTigers]

How can that be possible? Where will your knowledge come from? From another teacher?
actually, it is quite possible. A student may be smarter, more talented, more inquisitive, open-minded, exploratory, etc than his teacher. He may research, try new things out, develop and refine his technique, and take it to a higher level.
How often does a practitioner touch hands with another, and re-think his art?
Isn't that what MAists did to develop their present style?
Many of our arts are further refinements of their original art.
ALL Martial Arts went through hundreds of years of refinement to take it to its present state.
No art was created-"as is."

[xiao yao]

well, as time changed kung fu has improved in different ways. not many of us train as hard as people did in the old days, nor do we fight the same way. but kung fu has modernised and developed more scientific training methods, more scientific understanding of the body mechanics and more modern fighting methods, due to the influence of mma in the west or modern sanda in china.
a lot of younger kung fu guys in china now are adapting their traditional styles to fit in with sanda, so thats changed how they train.

i think calling it dancing is a bit extreme

[TenTigers]

I don't think that was what he had in mind when he referred to it as dancing. More like the people who flower it up, add moves they've seen in other forms/tournaments/youtube/Shaw Bros movies, and don't know application, therefore the movements change until they are ridiculous charactertures.