interview with master zhou zhen dong

[xiao yao]

Hi guys

This is an interview i did recently with my master, Zhou Zhen Dong about his experiences learning kung fu, his master and training during the cultural revolution. hope its interesting


http://www.monkeystealspeach.co.uk/taiji-mantis-master-zhou-zhen-dong.php

[Howard]

Nice. Thanks!

[mooyingmantis]

Will,
Very interesting! Thank you for sharing this with us! :)

[Tainan Mantis]

That was great! Since you see Teacher Zhou Zhendong all the time I hope that you can make more of those.

[xiao yao]

thanks for the feedback

yea, i wanna get more info from him. we had to cut it short coz he had something to do. im planning to get more info regarding the differences between taiji and meihua theories and training methods, shen fa etc. as well as some stories of the old masters and how they came up with the forms and drills we all train

[mooyingmantis]

Truly fascinating interview! I envy you! I hope to travel to China within the next five years. I would love to meet either Master Zhou or Master Qu at that time.

For those unfamiliar with Master Zhou, here is his martial lineage as I understand it:

Taiji Tanglangquan

王 郎
Wang Lang/Wang Wencheng
趙 珠
Zhao Zhu
李 秉 霄
Li Bingxiao
梁 学 香
Liang Xuexiang
姜 化 龍 + 宋 子 德
Jiang Hua Long + Song Zi De
崔 壽 山
Cui Shou Shan
张 楷 堂
Zhang Kai Tang
周 振 东
Zhou Zhen Dong

Meihua Tanglangquan

王 郎
Wang Lang
宇 宙 道 人
Yu Zhou Dao Ren
大 盜
Da Dao
李 秉 霄
Li Bing Xiao
趙 起 綠
Zhao Qi Lu
梁 学 香
Liang Xue Xiang
郝 莲 茹
Hao Lian Ru
郝 恆 祿
Hao Heng Lu
周 振 东
Zhou Zhen Dong

Will, please correct if any part of this is wrong.

Thank you for the information you have been willing to share!

[xiao yao]

yea, the lineage chart is right, except the lineage from hao family (as i understand it), is just mei hua mantis. master zhou explained that hao bin (son of hao heng lu) coined the name taiji meihua when he mixed the meihua from his father, with the taiji from ji cun ting (think i got that name right).

i also made a couple of mistakes i need to rectify.... the photo of cui shou shan and master zhang, thats actually not zhang kai tang... he learnt from cui shou shan much earlier.. ie 1930s. so i need to remove that photo

also, the first master taught master zhou three forms... bai yuan chu dong (white ape exits the cave), bai yuan kui yuan (white ape scans the field) and bai yuan tou tao (white ape steal peaches). the three forms are a set which make up a little story

[mooyingmantis]

OK, I will correct that. Thank you for the added information!

[CeruleanRyuujin]

thanks for the feedback

yea, i wanna get more info from him. we had to cut it short coz he had something to do. im planning to get more info regarding the differences between taiji and meihua theories and training methods, shen fa etc. as well as some stories of the old masters and how they came up with the forms and drills we all train

I would love to hear more once you get it! Thanks for posting!

[Yao Sing]

"I studied for three years, learning two forms: Bai Yuan Tou Tao (白猿偷桃 white ape steals peaches) and Kui Yuan, as well as a spear form which I never finished."

Two things - first for the Minimally Mature Artist types that think the Masters only practiced forms, what do you think he was practicing for hours a day probably 6 or 7 days a week all those years? I seriously doubt it was only forms.

Second, for the forms junkies who can't seem to figure out how the old Masters got so good compared to todays players - just because you learned the move sequence doesn't mean you're ready to start the next set. I've seen way too many students wanting to jump to the next set as soon as they get the last move committed to memory.

You want to be good like the old Masters you need to tear apart the forms and drill the individual moves every which way possible, over and over, with as many different opponents as possible. Learning the sequence is just the beginning of learning the set.

Of course this is meant for the newer KF players (and those on the outside looking in), the experienced guys should know this already. :p

Now back to reading the article.

[18elders]

they didn't have hundreds of forms to learn in the old days either, now most people are forms junkies and don't understand the moves but they know 2000 forms!!

[mooyingmantis]

they didn't have hundreds of forms to learn in the old days either, now most people are forms junkies and don't understand the moves but they know 2000 forms!!

I would prefer to know one or two core forms well. "Well" would mean:

1. I know the history and theme of the form,
2. I can understand the strategies taught within the form,
3. I have mastered the fighting combinations found in the form,
4. I can successfully apply the strategies and combinations against a non-compliant opponent.

This is how I train and how I teach.

[xiao yao]

i cant agree more

although master zhou teaches 2 lineages, his preferred one is taiji mantis, which just has the core forms: bengbu, luan jie, ba zhou, zhai yao etc

every form is broken down with applications, variations and 2 person drills to practice the applications. i think that is what is lacking, ive trained with a few people in china, and often its just forms.

i dont understand why some lineages of mantis have sooooooo many forms, i think a few forms done well is important. without forms i think its difficult to get good shen fa and flow, but you need to do a lot of repetition, so loads of forms is as bad as none.
cui shou shan said in your whole life, bengbu is enough..... you will never run out of content

[mooyingmantis]

cui shou shan said in your whole life, bengbu is enough..... you will never run out of content

That is a fascinating assessment of Bengbu!

[mooyingmantis]

i dont understand why some lineages of mantis have sooooooo many forms, i think a few forms done well is important. without forms i think its difficult to get good shen fa and flow, but you need to do a lot of repetition, so loads of forms is as bad as none.

I think it comes down to two things: a desire for prestige and financial gain.

Knowledge is power. As long as one can claim more knowledge, or secret knowledge, some will hang around hoping to someday have the same prestige.

Also, more forms become a carrot to hold in front of students to keep the cash flow coming in for a longer period of time.

On a personal note, I have been practicing the same form for the last four months and am up to over 550 repetitions of the form. I still have a long way to go, but it is a great feeling to immerse myself in the form and feel it becoming more and more a part of how I move and fight.

[xiao yao]

i agree

when i practice forms, i take single moves and just repeat them over and over, making sure its perfect. that way its second nature, the movements in mantis are quite difficult, and without repetition of the same thing over and over, it wont be there when you need it. i just have a few moves i work on like this, repeating, practicing both sides, trying different follow ups, different stepping, angles etc.

[Yao Sing]

Master Chan Pui told of a guy who only knew Wah Lum Second Exercise and won numerous fights with only those moves.

Personally I've taught WL Second Exercise as a 2-man drill showcasing multiple applications for the same simple movements.

You don't need to know a lot, you just need to know it well and be able to apply it.

[mooyingmantis]

You don't need to know a lot, you just need to know it well and be able to apply it.

Absolutely Golden!

[18elders]

Hey Dave, your message box is full, it won't accept any messages until you clean some old ones out!!

here's the school address:
8140 West Waters Avenue Tampa, FL 33615
(813) 495-3060

[Yao Sing]

Ok, I emptied the mailbox. Had a bunch of messages about the portable poles I made. Sorry to everyone that I never replied back with the build info.

On topic - I see on the interview website a video with Lan Jie apps. The opening move (wrist to the chin) always bothered me from an anatomical viewpoint. I've always been a fan of the wrist for striking (in my school before I left El Paso I conditioned my wrists and had to break a patio block on my last day) but if you examine the angles involved you find it's not a clean fit.

An uppercut fits neatly under the chin but the wrist doesn't due to the knuckles possibly contacting the body before the wrist gets in far enough to contact the chin. Now I'm sure you've all tried this move so I don't need to struggle finding the words to describe the situation.

I just feel it's weak and not suited to the way it's applied. I would use the rising wrist to block and/or clear the way for the following palm to the face but trying to strike the chin, to me, is a long shot.

Comments?

[iunojupiter]

As my Sifu was saying the other day, the best masters in history only knew at most 2 or 3 forms.
Taiji really only has Yi Lu and Er Lu
"original" mantis was Beng Bu, Ba Zhou, and Lian Jie
Baguazhang has two main forms
xingyi has one big form (or do i have them backwards?)

They may have only had 1, 2, or 3 forms, but they KNEW them... inside, outside, left, right, etc...
We can say we "know" a form, but we're just kidding ourselves I think.

Cheers,
Josh

[iunojupiter]

Ok, I emptied the mailbox. Had a bunch of messages about the portable poles I made. Sorry to everyone that I never replied back with the build info.

On topic - I see on the interview website a video with Lan Jie apps. The opening move (wrist to the chin) always bothered me from an anatomical viewpoint. I've always been a fan of the wrist for striking (in my school before I left El Paso I conditioned my wrists and had to break a patio block on my last day) but if you examine the angles involved you find it's not a clean fit.

An uppercut fits neatly under the chin but the wrist doesn't due to the knuckles possibly contacting the body before the wrist gets in far enough to contact the chin. Now I'm sure you've all tried this move so I don't need to struggle finding the words to describe the situation.

I just feel it's weak and not suited to the way it's applied. I would use the rising wrist to block and/or clear the way for the following palm to the face but trying to strike the chin, to me, is a long shot.

Comments?

Don't forget that you've cleared the way for the strike with a right hook to their attack and left hand sealing of their arm.
However, I generally treat a leading strike as more of a distraction. If he blocks, I'm okay with that, I can sink into the chop to the chest. If he doesn't block, I hit him. If he leans away, I can still move in with the chop.
You're right to a point. The wrist strike doesn't fit nicely into the chin/throat area, especially if the fighter has his chin tucked in and behind the shoulder properly... but... to me, it's really just the distraction. I want him to focus on what's coming at his face. I want him to react to that. If he doesn't, and I get his chin or nose, great. If not, well, on to the next movement.

Cheers,
Josh

[Mantis9700]

maybe the wrist doesnt fit because the application is you raising your right hand to block the oppenents punch, your left hand seals their right elbow and you come chopping down with your right palm on their face or collar bone

[sanjuro_ronin]

Great interview, excellent site with very good videos.
Well done.

[Yao Sing]

maybe the wrist doesnt fit because the application is you raising your right hand to block the oppenents punch, your left hand seals their right elbow and you come chopping down with your right palm on their face or collar bone

My point exactly, although the app is shown as a wrist strike to the chin. I've seen it played like that from multiple Mantis Masters. I'm much more comfortable with the situation as you describe it.

Did you learn it as a chin strike or blocking/opening the left arm to make way for the palm strike?

EDIT: Remember the words of the old Chinese master whose razor thin blade could cut through the thickest bull**** - Hok Sam's Dao says "The easiest practical app is probably the correct app". :D

[mooyingmantis]

My point exactly, although the app is shown as a wrist strike to the chin. I've seen it played like that from multiple Mantis Masters.

Zhou Zhendong, Shi Zhengzhong and Zhang Bingdou all explain the move as a rising strike to the lower jaw.

[Tainan Mantis]

maybe the wrist doesnt fit because the application is you raising your right hand to block the oppenents punch, your left hand seals their right elbow and you come chopping down with your right palm on their face or collar bone

Yes, this is also true.
The hand rises and falls, either hitting the opponent's hand or their chin or mouth on the lift.

Zhou Zhendong scared the cr@p out of me when he did this technique to me.
He knocked my hands down and lifted his wrists to my chin. THough he did'nt hit me i think, at that moment, after having had my hands knocked down, that his technique would have busted my teeth.

[xiao yao]

there are many interpretations to applications and i think most of them are valid, but all have their specific situations

like kevin said, if the opponents hand is in the way, its a block, if there is no hand, its a strike. also, like josh said, i think it makes a good distraction for the chop, which is the power move.

master zhou (and my old master) have shown many applications where what seems like a feng shou can work just as well as a flick to the eyes. the idea is, just do the move, if the opponents arm is there, it is a block or deflection, if there is no attack or guard obstructing the path, it just strikes

[Mantis9700]

the application as I described is the main way I learned although I have seen the variations mentioned above. For me it makes sense from a common sense stand point. Most experienced fighters will probably keep their chin tucked in which would make it kind of difficult to target with the wrist not to mention painful.

[yu shan]

"Listen to him training, just from the sound you can hear his kung fu is good"

I like this and can relate.

[xiao yao]

if their chin is tucked in and you do make contact, i think it would hit the nose or mouth (there is a knockout point just below the lip).

yaosing:

"I studied for three years, learning two forms: Bai Yuan Tou Tao (白猿偷桃 white ape steals peaches) and Kui Yuan, as well as a spear form which I never finished."

Two things - first for the Minimally Mature Artist types that think the Masters only practiced forms, what do you think he was practicing for hours a day probably 6 or 7 days a week all those years? I seriously doubt it was only forms.

so i asked master zhou exaclty what kind of training he did......

a lot of basics, partner work and bagwork (a large leather sand-filled bag, where 2 people stood either side of it and hit it back and forth with power moves eg shuang bang shou/beng chui or combos)
forms were more like homework