Alan Orr Wing Chun questions

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PhownwwVHdA

[Graham H]

If it doesn't look like Wing Chun and it's clearly not Wing Chun then why call it Wing Chun when he clearly hasn't got a clue about it?

I'm not taking anything away from Alan Orr. He trains his guys to fight and they compete but there is no Wing Chun. Just calling things Wing Chun names and then totally changing their applications simply because he can't do it seems to be common practice these days.
How can somebody say that Pak/jut sau is for beginners and then change how it is used? He is just punching ffs! Any idiot can punch and using your weight and hip is important in any fighting art. Cutting in with the punch is correct but not how he is doing it! I would expect my beginners to do it like that.

Saying that SLT is for space awareness is absolutley incorrect! Alans strategy on how to apply Wing Chun in a fight is wrong. He even did a pak sau when the guy punched him but only beginners should do that????????

The only thing I agree with in that clip is when he makes aware the guys following punch but we have a strategy to deal with that whereas most WC I have encountered do not because they are always stuck on each others arms.

Saying that we do not take the forms into a fight is garbage! The forms are Wing Chun and show us the way to fight. We dont stand in front of somebody and start doing a form but every action has SLT/CK/MJ/BJ/CS/BJD/LDBK elements.

Chi Sau is not for feeling your opponent out. Its a learning tool and is the most misinterpreted drill in the whole of Martail Arts.

That is not Ving Tsun. Call it what you will and win fights with it but it is not Ving Tsun! Just call it MMA which is what it is or lets just iradicate the name Ving Tsun completely so no f***er can market it as something it's not!

So if Alan reads this then why don't you call your style "Alan Orr's Fighting System" It works, its good it has a proven track record BUT THERE IS NO VING TSUN IN IT!!!

Whats next? People will be calling Muay Thai Ving Tsun because it has a punch in it? Why not get a boxer to do SLT and call that Ving Tsun. Lets call Wrestling Ving Tsun because somebody has used an action that looks like Bong Sau to roll away a punch.

GH

[R]

http://www.alanorr.co.uk/htdocs/wingchun/wingchun.html

Proper lineage but his sifu has interpreted things in a more combative way than most and thus Allan and his students can fight and win at what they do....

Who's to say that his interpretations aren't correct or if they are proper wing chun??

R

[Alan Orr]

http://www.alanorr.co.uk/htdocs/wingchun/wingchun.html

Proper lineage but his sifu has interpreted things in a more combative way than most and thus Allan and his students can fight and win at what they do....

Who's to say that his interpretations aren't correct or if they are proper wing chun??

R

Yes thank you. How can someone else tell me what I think lol

[wingchunIan]

Thanks for posting the clip Phil, I always find Alan's stuff interesting. He mixes in a lot of wrestling, MT and boxing for his MMA fighters but you can often see the wing chun basis if you look with an open mind, and many of his training methods compliment the traditional stuff really well. Always nice to see another perspective.:)

[Alan Orr]

If it doesn't look like Wing Chun and it's clearly not Wing Chun then why call it Wing Chun when he clearly hasn't got a clue about it?

I'm not taking anything away from Alan Orr. He trains his guys to fight and they compete but there is no Wing Chun. Just calling things Wing Chun names and then totally changing their applications simply because he can't do it seems to be common practice these days.
How can somebody say that Pak/jut sau is for beginners and then change how it is used? He is just punching ffs! Any idiot can punch and using your weight and hip is important in any fighting art. Cutting in with the punch is correct but not how he is doing it! I would expect my beginners to do it like that.

Saying that SLT is for space awareness is absolutley incorrect! Alans strategy on how to apply Wing Chun in a fight is wrong. He even did a pak sau when the guy punched him but only beginners should do that????????

The only thing I agree with in that clip is when he makes aware the guys following punch but we have a strategy to deal with that whereas most WC I have encountered do not because they are always stuck on each others arms.

Saying that we do not take the forms into a fight is garbage! The forms are Wing Chun and show us the way to fight. We dont stand in front of somebody and start doing a form but every action has SLT/CK/MJ/BJ/CS/BJD/LDBK elements.

Chi Sau is not for feeling your opponent out. Its a learning tool and is the most misinterpreted drill in the whole of Martail Arts.

That is not Ving Tsun. Call it what you will and win fights with it but it is not Ving Tsun! Just call it MMA which is what it is or lets just iradicate the name Ving Tsun completely so no f***er can market it as something it's not!

So if Alan reads this then why don't you call your style "Alan Orr's Fighting System" It works, its good it has a proven track record BUT THERE IS NO VING TSUN IN IT!!!

Whats next? People will be calling Muay Thai Ving Tsun because it has a punch in it? Why not get a boxer to do SLT and call that Ving Tsun. Lets call Wrestling Ving Tsun because somebody has used an action that looks like Bong Sau to roll away a punch.

GH

This is very funny. Just because it work does not mean its right, well yes that can hold some true if its just one person. But I have a lot of guys using Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun and they are all doing very well.

Also if you listen rather that just rant like a fool, you would then see that I am taking about Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun and what I think about wing chun. Thats my point of view. Who the ...k are you to tell me what I think! lol

You have your views and I have my views. Very simple.

[k gledhill]

Here is a clip of a guy exchanging with another , it looks like VT , he moves like VT, he is using techniques from VT. He learned from a man considered to be a VT fighter.


CLIP (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Ving-Tsun-USA/201018736610508#!/photo.php?v=294753497213212)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes thank you. How can someone else tell me what I think lol

Alan, Alan, Alan...allow ME to make clear to YOU what YOU are thinking :D
WC is about fighting and one fighting with WC is doing just that.
This is what you are THINKING Alan, but you are wrong, WRONG I SAY !!!
WC is about forms and n ot just ANY forms, but forms done in THIS way under THERE PRETENSES with NOTHING else being ACCEPTABLE !!
WC is about Chi Sao done in the most static and impractical way possible and NO OTHER ALTERNATE WAY IS ACCEPTABLE !!

Alan, the fact that you take your WC and make it work VS trained fighters in an environement that is as close to reality as possible means that you are NOT DOING WC !!

In short Alan, stop being effective, stop training your guys to win and START doing WC the way it was suppose to !!!

Your yellow silk jammies are in the mail, along with my DVD of "how to make SLT as boring and useless as possible".

:D

[k gledhill]

Alan, Alan, Alan...allow ME to make clear to YOU what YOU are thinking :D
WC is about fighting and one fighting with WC is doing just that.
This is what you are THINKING Alan, but you are wrong, WRONG I SAY !!!
WC is about forms and n ot just ANY forms, but forms done in THIS way under THERE PRETENSES with NOTHING else being ACCEPTABLE !!
WC is about Chi Sao done in the most static and impractical way possible and NO OTHER ALTERNATE WAY IS ACCEPTABLE !!

Alan, the fact that you take your WC and make it work VS trained fighters in an environement that is as close to reality as possible means that you are NOT DOING WC !!

In short Alan, stop being effective, stop training your guys to win and START doing WC the way it was suppose to !!!

Your yellow silk jammies are in the mail, along with my DVD of "how to make SLT as boring and useless as possible".

:D

When would you draw the line between vt and not vt ?

[Alan Orr]

Alan, Alan, Alan...allow ME to make clear to YOU what YOU are thinking :D
WC is about fighting and one fighting with WC is doing just that.
This is what you are THINKING Alan, but you are wrong, WRONG I SAY !!!
WC is about forms and n ot just ANY forms, but forms done in THIS way under THERE PRETENSES with NOTHING else being ACCEPTABLE !!
WC is about Chi Sao done in the most static and impractical way possible and NO OTHER ALTERNATE WAY IS ACCEPTABLE !!

Alan, the fact that you take your WC and make it work VS trained fighters in an environement that is as close to reality as possible means that you are NOT DOING WC !!

In short Alan, stop being effective, stop training your guys to win and START doing WC the way it was suppose to !!!

Your yellow silk jammies are in the mail, along with my DVD of "how to make SLT as boring and useless as possible".

:D


lol yes its all clear, if it works its not wing chun if it does work its vt lol

nice post

[Alan Orr]

Thanks for posting the clip Phil, I always find Alan's stuff interesting. He mixes in a lot of wrestling, MT and boxing for his MMA fighters but you can often see the wing chun basis if you look with an open mind, and many of his training methods compliment the traditional stuff really well. Always nice to see another perspective.:)



Thank you for your post, but what you saying about me is not completely correct.

I do not mix wrestling, boxing or anything else in my wing chun.


My stand up striking art is Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun 100%

I am not using boxing - its CSL Chinese boxing - ie wing chun striking -wing chun skills from our wing chun training.


When I tie up in 'training' then I may do some wrestling so my guys learn to defend the takedown and so on.

I'm a brown belt in BJJ so it we go to the ground I have a choice of ground and pound - using my wing chun or apply BJJ and wrestling as its just training.

Best Alan

[Alan Orr]

When would you draw the line between vt and not vt ?


Not sure what your question is as most have different ideas about what wing chun seems to be.

For me Chu Sau Lei wing chun is an boxing art. So stand up I use my wing chun.

On the ground I can strike with wing chun or use grappling.

[sanjuro_ronin]

When would you draw the line between vt and not vt ?

Not that MY opinion matters more than anyone elses, but it depends on what you veeiw VT as.
Is it a system that is base don techniques? ( if so it must have a "certain look")?
Is it a system based on principles? ( If so any technique or look is valid as long as the principles are there).
Where do I draw the line on what is VT and what isn't?
That would depend on WHICH VT you are referring to, no?

[k gledhill]

Not sure what your question is as most have different ideas about what wing chun seems to be.

For me Chu Sau Lei wing chun is an boxing art. So stand up I use my wing chun.

On the ground I can strike with wing chun or use grappling.

Did you watch the clip I posted ? any opinion you care to share about it ?

Do you see VT techniques, concepts, tactics being used or not ?

[k gledhill]

Not that MY opinion matters more than anyone elses, but it depends on what you veeiw VT as.
Is it a system that is base don techniques? ( if so it must have a "certain look")?
Is it a system based on principles? ( If so any technique or look is valid as long as the principles are there).
Where do I draw the line on what is VT and what isn't?
That would depend on WHICH VT you are referring to, no?

You know what I am asking. ;)

[Graham H]

This is very funny. Just because it work does not mean its right, well yes that can hold some true if its just one person. But I have a lot of guys using Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun and they are all doing very well.

Also if you listen rather that just rant like a fool, you would then see that I am taking about Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun and what I think about wing chun. Thats my point of view. Who the ...k are you to tell me what I think! lol

You have your views and I have my views. Very simple.

Ranting like a fool eh? Uh hum.....your videos? Irony at its best!

Call it what you like mate. I don't give a sh1t anyway. I gave up WC and I regret writing that post. Its a waste of time like your CSLWC ideas.

I wasn't telling you what to think! You read it and responded and this will be my last post.

Keep up the bad work!

GH

[Mr. Chang]

Wing Chun is good which is efficient. Allan Or Wing Chun is efficient.

[Fa Xing]

Ranting like a fool eh? Uh hum.....your videos? Irony at its best!

Call it what you like mate. I don't give a sh1t anyway. I gave up WC and I regret writing that post. Its a waste of time like your CSLWC ideas.

I wasn't telling you what to think! You read it and responded and this will be my last post.

Keep up the bad work!

GH

Talk about not responding well to criticism.

Personally I dig your stuff Alan, and was thinking how what you do might be how JKD would have evolved with more grappling had Bruce survived the 70s. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know what I am asking. ;)

Indeed, and one can take the "orthodox" view and state that IF WT doesn't look like WT then it isn't WT but we are stuck with the "how IS WT suppose to look?" right?
I would think that the moment the core WT principles are not present then it stops being WT and starts being something else.
Of course we get back to whether WT is a principles based system or a technique one.
Is a spinning hook kick WT?

[nasmedicine]

Alan, Alan, Alan...allow ME to make clear to YOU what YOU are thinking :D
WC is about fighting and one fighting with WC is doing just that.
This is what you are THINKING Alan, but you are wrong, WRONG I SAY !!!
WC is about forms and n ot just ANY forms, but forms done in THIS way under THERE PRETENSES with NOTHING else being ACCEPTABLE !!
WC is about Chi Sao done in the most static and impractical way possible and NO OTHER ALTERNATE WAY IS ACCEPTABLE !!

Alan, the fact that you take your WC and make it work VS trained fighters in an environement that is as close to reality as possible means that you are NOT DOING WC !!

In short Alan, stop being effective, stop training your guys to win and START doing WC the way it was suppose to !!!

Your yellow silk jammies are in the mail, along with my DVD of "how to make SLT as boring and useless as possible".

:D

LOL, love the sarcasm! Alan is correct. He even mentions in the video that this is "his wing chun". WC/VT/WT or whatever is not about forms and chi sao, it's about the concept and principle and how effectively you can use them. The forms are only a guideline not the (insert holy book of choice). Fact of the matter is that Alan is able to hide/blend it into any form that takes shape. Any good fighter after training anything will end up doing just that, make it his/her own.

[nasmedicine]

Of course we get back to whether WT is a principles based system or a technique one.

IMHO, it is/should be principle based, the form/techniques are merely there to give you a starting point from which you can expand upon. As long as you are sticking to the principles and making it work for you, it's still WC.

[WC1277]

I like anyone who fights effectively and I like Alan Orr's skill.... But, just from my own perspective so as not to cause a debate here, "IMO" there's not much there in regards to WC principles. The few that are demonstrated are quickly contraindicated. Nothing wrong with doing whatever one wants to do, but I'm going to have to take the opposing viewpoint...... There's more than one way to illustrate a principle or core concept but they're all interrelated and if you follow one principle, or even two, and not the rest, I think it's pretty safe to say one's no longer exhibiting WC. Just my two cents.... Other than that, the man can fight...

[couch]

I'm very happy that Alan Orr has EVOLVED his Wing Chun into HIS interpretation of what effective is for today. And he also gets props for not telling me, on a Youtube video, that his Wing Chun is too deadly for the ring.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One has to wonder about a system than can be used effectively in the ring.
I mean, if you can't use it under controlled conditions VS a person in the same weight category, what hope do you have to use VS a bigger fighter with no rules ?

[Grumblegeezer]

I'm very happy that Alan Orr has EVOLVED his Wing Chun into HIS interpretation of what effective is for today. And he also gets props for not telling me, on a Youtube video, that his Wing Chun is too deadly for the ring.

Mr. Orr's WC is not my VT, his Eskrima is not the same as my Escrima. What I do is more traditional, less evolutionary and more like what I was taught. That's my choice.

Now on the other hand I have total respect for what Mr. Orr seems to be trying to do. That is to take the essense of WC/VT and make it work in competitive fighting and in conjunction with combat principles from other arts that address other ranges and situations (Eskrima, boxing, BJJ, etc.). His practical experience in this area can benefit us all if we "pull our heads out" and open up our eyes. I have referred students to his videos to check out what I see as a positive influence on our art. If I wanted to show them negativity, I could just send them here to check out this forum!:p

[GlennR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PhownwwVHdA

Great stuff!

I remember years ago, someone put up a clip of one of Alan's guys in a fight and it started cries of blasphemy (like this one has).

My comment was, at the time, that it all starts with how they develop their power and that you could see it in their stance/structure.

Thats the 1st thing everyone should look at rather than his hands... its WC to me in that earlier clip, and its certainly WC here
And its realistic in a combat context. You can tell these guys get down and dirty when they sparr just from what Alamn has to say.

If your reading my comment Alan, your stucture, build and attitude are very similar to my WC Instructor Beau Bouzaid(TST lineage) though he has a few years on you ;) Shame youre so far away.

Great work, keep it up

[anerlich]

Props to Alan. Karma to the haters.

[Vajramusti]

Alan uses a good wing chun structure in stand up in an effective way.

[Vajramusti]

Here is a clip of a guy exchanging with another , it looks like VT , he moves like VT, he is using techniques from VT. He learned from a man considered to be a VT fighter.


CLIP (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Ving-Tsun-USA/201018736610508#!/photo.php?v=294753497213212)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are different versions of VT/WC- the clip is based on one of them. There are others.

[GlennR]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are different versions of VT/WC- the clip is based on one of them. There are others.

Exactly.

Alan's guys fight using WC.... why the hate?

I really dont get it

[Vajramusti]

Exactly.

Alan's guys fight using WC.... why the hate?

I really dont get it
-------------------------------------------

no hate here.

[Shǎguā]

Anything that contradicts the magic Peanut Butter and his Jellies is taboo on this board. Didn't you know?

[Alan Orr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SJrVX2Nr68

New Alan Orr Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun Chi Sao Clip

[Phil Redmond]

Here is a clip of a guy exchanging with another , it looks like VT , he moves like VT, he is using techniques from VT. He learned from a man considered to be a VT fighter.


CLIP (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Ving-Tsun-USA/201018736610508#!/photo.php?v=294753497213212)
C'mon Kev. You can't use that clip of an example of fighting. The other guy isn't trying to wreck him. Like I said before. Demos are just that. Including mine. ;)

[Phil Redmond]

I like anyone who fights effectively and I like Alan Orr's skill.... But, just from my own perspective so as not to cause a debate here, "IMO" there's not much there in regards to WC principles. The few that are demonstrated are quickly contraindicated. Nothing wrong with doing whatever one wants to do, but I'm going to have to take the opposing viewpoint...... There's more than one way to illustrate a principle or core concept but they're all interrelated and if you follow one principle, or even two, and not the rest, I think it's pretty safe to say one's no longer exhibiting WC. Just my two cents.... Other than that, the man can fight...
I could say that other people's Wing Chun principles are not right because they aren't mine. ie, my Wu covers my uppergate where most opponents will strike. Other's wu is the middle gate. But I don't do that because Wing Chun is a tool which can by used various ways as long as it's effective.

[Phil Redmond]

Alan, there are many keys on a keyboard by some are hardly used. They are still keys aren't they? There are many chords in music but all aren't used in one musical piece. But they are still chords. A fight might never require a tan, fook, pak, lop, etc. Wing Chun teaches economy of motion, and energy. The most economical tech might not look like what the average WC person expects to see. Fighters understand that. Also there are some people brainwashed to think that one Sifu has ALL the answers and that's really sad. I give you big props and you're a credit to WC regardless of what the brainwashed people say

[JPinAZ]

I caught it too - Alan says that techniques like pak bong laap are beginner level stuff but he's not going to use that. But in both instances where he demonstrated 'free sparring' that's exactly what he used - Pak, bong and laap (in that exact order) :rolleyes:

Besides that, the rest of what he is saying in the clip make sense - because for the most part, it's just basic general fight mechanics. But there is a disconnect in what he's saying and what he's actually doing as noted above.

[Subitai]

Man, if a guy like Alan makes it work for him....WORK being the key word.
Then go ahead... man kick ass.

Why do people get so caught up on a "Particular" looking style. Can't we all agree that if 5 guys learned to fight well ....albeit from different styles, then they ALL WILL most likely do the simplest, most effecient motions to get the job done.

I mean, once you're at the top of the mountain...things start to look similar.

Shoot, I do Hung Gar (also a bridging style) and some of the things Alan did is what we do. It's false perceptions.... Being loose and comfortable yet ready to apply is more real and makes sense. For example, Nobody should think you have to be using animals or some crazy sh!t like that or it's not Hung Gar.

Fundamental Kung Fu skills, like a relaxed shoulder and sunk elbow cross all boundaries and styles.

In the end, if you have good Kung Fu fundamentals...it should show out, regardless of style.

[Paul T England]

I tried to stop myself from replying!!!!!

First off I am not Alan's biggest fan, I have respect for him and his teacher and on the few occassions I have met with them, I have to admit they have helped me and my wing chun by making me think. Some of the drills they use make alot of sense and thier functional approach is certainly ahead of its time (although many wing chun groups are moving that way).

I was watching a clip the other day of a wing chun guy and I thought, hey that looks a bit like Alan Orr......when I checked out the guys history it turns out one of his influences was Alan. To me this shows that the Chu/Orr family have thier own unique body methods and techniques and that the system can be passed on. This to me is positive and you can often tell good/strong lineages by thier trademark techniques and structures. WSL family are a good example fo this as I guess are the WT & TWC families.

Wing chun is a system, just like mathematics.....you have certain formulas and mehtods but once you understand the principles and concepts if it works its good. You are doing wing chun (well trying to!!!) if you are studying the methods and drilling the forms. How welll you do it will depend on your effort, testing and how good the teaching system is.

So after that long rant.......Alan, thanks for posting, if it makes people think and train that extra half hour today then well done. If it gets one more non wing chunner thinking that wing chun might have something then well done.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Hebrew Hammer]

From an outsiders perspective, I thought his vids are solid. I'd train with an instructor like that anytime. It never ceases to amaze me the fanaticism with which some people hold on to lineages, styles, techniques as being altruistic. There are always many paths along the journey...Phil has the gist of it...show some respect, learn from others and work on yourself.

[Alan Orr]

I caught it too - Alan says that techniques like pak bong laap are beginner level stuff but he's not going to use that. But in both instances where he demonstrated 'free sparring' that's exactly what he used - Pak, bong and laap (in that exact order) :rolleyes:

Besides that, the rest of what he is saying in the clip make sense - because for the most part, it's just basic general fight mechanics. But there is a disconnect in what he's saying and what he's actually doing as noted above.

Please try on to hang on to every single word I say. Pak and Lap I use of course, but it has many levels. In the clip I am taking about using it in sparring where it becomes the basic application of movement for striking. Of course I use Pak and Lap in Chi Sao which is training my movement and skill. This is my whole point - its not set in stone. The clip you are talking about is me doing chi sao not sparring, so of course you see Pak and Lap. You also see me leaking the strike with one hand which is control of the movement in the line of attack used by Lap and so on. The important thing is that skills should develop. Repeating an application with no ideal of the development is the problem that is often seen.

[Alan Orr]

Alan, there are many keys on a keyboard by some are hardly used. They are still keys aren't they? There are many chords in music but all aren't used in one musical piece. But they are still chords. A fight might never require a tan, fook, pak, lop, etc. Wing Chun teaches economy of motion, and energy. The most economical tech might not look like what the average WC person expects to see. Fighters understand that. Also there are some people brainwashed to think that one Sifu has ALL the answers and that's really sad. I give you big props and you're a credit to WC regardless of what the brainwashed people say

Thanks Phil.

[Alan Orr]

Ranting like a fool eh? Uh hum.....your videos? Irony at its best!

Call it what you like mate. I don't give a sh1t anyway. I gave up WC and I regret writing that post. Its a waste of time like your CSLWC ideas.

I wasn't telling you what to think! You read it and responded and this will be my last post.

Keep up the bad work!

GH

Did you give up your wing chun because it didnt work? lol

Sorry couldn't help myself.... look only a weak minded person would be so upset about a persons views who they don't even know, have never met and did not even address them or their style in the first place.

This is way too funny.

Unless you know my system then to have such a strong hate of it is funny to me. It says a lot about a person.

[Alan Orr]

From an outsiders perspective, I thought his vids are solid. I'd train with an instructor like that anytime. It never ceases to amaze me the fanaticism with which some people hold on to lineages, styles, techniques as being altruistic. There are always many paths along the journey...Phil has the gist of it...show some respect, learn from others and work on yourself.

Many thanks

[Alan Orr]

Man, if a guy like Alan makes it work for him....WORK being the key word.
Then go ahead... man kick ass.

Why do people get so caught up on a "Particular" looking style. Can't we all agree that if 5 guys learned to fight well ....albeit from different styles, then they ALL WILL most likely do the simplest, most effecient motions to get the job done.

I mean, once you're at the top of the mountain...things start to look similar.

Shoot, I do Hung Gar (also a bridging style) and some of the things Alan did is what we do. It's false perceptions.... Being loose and comfortable yet ready to apply is more real and makes sense. For example, Nobody should think you have to be using animals or some crazy sh!t like that or it's not Hung Gar.

Fundamental Kung Fu skills, like a relaxed shoulder and sunk elbow cross all boundaries and styles.

In the end, if you have good Kung Fu fundamentals...it should show out, regardless of style.

Nice post. thanks

[Frost]

Lo im not a wing chun guy but I just knew as soon as I read the thread title the two people who would go off on one about it not being wing chun etc etc….funny how said people claim to come from a fighting wing chun line yet cant post any clips of them actually fighting like Alan’s guys can, also funny how one of them feels the need to rant over and over about it but then say when challenged I really don’t care…….:)

[Dragonzbane76]

Does it work. Can it be applied in resistance. things that matter

Things that don't matter. Where it came from. Is it a true interpretation of the style.

[wingchunIan]

Thank you for your post, but what you saying about me is not completely correct.

I do not mix wrestling, boxing or anything else in my wing chun.


My stand up striking art is Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun 100%

I am not using boxing - its CSL Chinese boxing - ie wing chun striking -wing chun skills from our wing chun training.


When I tie up in 'training' then I may do some wrestling so my guys learn to defend the takedown and so on.

I'm a brown belt in BJJ so it we go to the ground I have a choice of ground and pound - using my wing chun or apply BJJ and wrestling as its just training.

Best Alan

Sorry if I misrepresented your stuff Alan, I was going on what I had previously read / seen in your magazine interviews, DVDs etc, and the fact that as you say you switch from time to time. I hadn't made the distinction between your Wing Chun and the mma blending and didn't realise that you taught them separately. Nice that your on here to put the record straight.

[k gledhill]

I know I am not alone when I say that I dont see VT 100% stand-up as I know it.
Making a clip to rationalize the fact that nobody else see's it either speaks volumes, nuff said from me.

another clip, looks like vt in action to me... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaCsPgUL1V8&feature=related)

[Phil Redmond]

Indeed, and one can take the "orthodox" view and state that IF WT doesn't look like WT then it isn't WT but we are stuck with the "how IS WT suppose to look?" right?
I would think that the moment the core WT principles are not present then it stops being WT and starts being something else.
Of course we get back to whether WT is a principles based system or a technique one.
Is a spinning hook kick WT?
If WC is a principle based "style" then many things can work. People who believe it's technique based will be looking for chi sau demo techs when fighting someone who is really fighting back. I believe WC is principle based.

[Phil Redmond]

One has to wonder about a system than can be used effectively in the ring.
I mean, if you can't use it under controlled conditions VS a person in the same weight category, what hope do you have to use VS a bigger fighter with no rules ?
C'mon man. WC is too deadly for the ring . . . ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

C'mon man. WC is too deadly for the ring . . . ;)

It would seem that some are still under that dilusion.

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SJrVX2Nr68

New Alan Orr Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun Chi Sao Clip
In this clip both people are trying to hit each other. The other guy isn't just standing there letting Alan pull off stuff. With no offense to any other Sifus clips that have been posted here this one is way better.

[Phil Redmond]

I know I am not alone when I say that I dont see VT 100% stand-up as I know it.
Making a clip to rationalize the fact that nobody else see's it either speaks volumes, nuff said from me.

another clip, looks like vt in action to me... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaCsPgUL1V8&feature=related)
That clip actually looks good. But would it look as good if the other guy was really putting pressure on PB and really trying to hit him instead of simply posing for strikes? In Alan/s clip there was pressure from both sides.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One thing that we have seen over and over and over and that is that "textbook" WC ( any any other MA for that matter) "falls apart" under realistic pressure.
What you get i s still WC, it just isn't pretty and it certainly isn't "demo like".

[Fa Xing]

That clip actually looks good. But would it look as good if the other guy was really putting pressure on PB and really trying to hit him instead of simply posing for strikes? In Alan/s clip there was pressure from both sides.

That was actually the same thought I had while watching it. It didn't look like the guy was giving PB as much as he probably could have.

[JPinAZ]

Please try on to hang on to every single word I say. Pak and Lap I use of course, but it has many levels. In the clip I am taking about using it in sparring where it becomes the basic application of movement for striking. Of course I use Pak and Lap in Chi Sao which is training my movement and skill. This is my whole point - its not set in stone. The clip you are talking about is me doing chi sao not sparring, so of course you see Pak and Lap. You also see me leaking the strike with one hand which is control of the movement in the line of attack used by Lap and so on. The important thing is that skills should develop. Repeating an application with no ideal of the development is the problem that is often seen.

Thanks, but I know how to read. I don't need your silly guidance. :rolleyes:

So we're clear, I was talking about the first clip on this thread where you mention you don't use pak, bong, etc (being, in your words, 'beginning' techniques) then later, step back to non-contact range to deomonstrate sparring (your words), and defend with those exact techniques. I was just commenting on your inconsistancies/conttradictions in that video. That's all.
Now, if you are saying that in the end, in WC, we don't focus on the techniques, but more-so the body mechanics and principals of WC, I'd agree.

IMO, after watching your latest string of videos, I would say I see a lot of leaning, pushing, shoving, grabbing, muscling, self up-rooting, giving up space resulting in a lot of your self centerline distortions. For me, this is not in-line with even the basic of WC centerline principles of self centerline. Maybe that's ok in your WC, and more power to you if it's working for you and your guys. And, I do give you credit for hard work and posting clips for your MMA accomplishments and training.
But from my understanding of even the basics of WC, without proper self-centerline, it's hard to argue you're 'using wing chun' since that's where WC starts..

[Alan Orr]

I know I am not alone when I say that I dont see VT 100% stand-up as I know it.
Making a clip to rationalize the fact that nobody else see's it either speaks volumes, nuff said from me.

another clip, looks like vt in action to me... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaCsPgUL1V8&feature=related)


Not even sure what you are taking about or why you even feel the need to do so.

[Alan Orr]

Thanks, but I know how to read. I don't need your silly guidance. :rolleyes:

So we're clear, I was talking about the first clip on this thread where you mention you don't use pak, bong, etc (being, in your words, 'beginning' techniques) then later, step back to non-contact range to deomonstrate sparring (your words), and defend with those exact techniques. I was just commenting on your inconsistancies/conttradictions in that video. That's all.
Now, if you are saying that in the end, in WC, we don't focus on the techniques, but more-so the body mechanics and principals of WC, I'd agree.

IMO, after watching your latest string of videos, I would say I see a lot of leaning, pushing, shoving, grabbing, muscling, self up-rooting, giving up space resulting in a lot of your self centerline distortions. For me, this is not in-line with even the basic of WC centerline principles of self centerline. Maybe that's ok in your WC, and more power to you if it's working for you and your guys. And, I do give you credit for hard work and posting clips for your MMA accomplishments and training.
But from my understanding of even the basics of WC, without proper self-centerline, it's hard to argue you're 'using wing chun' since that's where WC starts..


Its hard when you watch a video with limited understanding to see the control of weight, power, timing and so on. I am playing with my students in my class, sometimes I give them pressure for them to learn and react. You guys have such an obsession about what I do. Its so funny, if you don't like it then don't want it.

Posting what you think I am doing or what you think I am not doing when you have never even met me or had first hand experience of my system is such a joke.

I keep saying - this is Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun - therefore what you are seeing is not the wing chun you do. Thats the whole point. lol

[horserider]

Am curious, as a young man I trained and fought Muay Thai as a professional albeit low level. Now I am an old sick man and may be unaware of changes or improvements in fighting techniques as the only input I have now is watching UFC at times.

My experience is that you fight as you train. You seem to heavily train and rely on an attack I have rarely ever seen used and never was taught or trained when I was fighting.

In your videos it seems that 50% give or take of your strikes are chops from over a fak or bong position. This attack has always been for me a chi sao attack having very little use when fighting another trained fighter. Do you have any videos you can show of the use of this technique in a trained fighter vs trained fighter match? Do you train your fighters to do chop after chop after chop as you demonstrate in your chi sau videos?

[Alan Orr]

Sorry if I misrepresented your stuff Alan, I was going on what I had previously read / seen in your magazine interviews, DVDs etc, and the fact that as you say you switch from time to time. I hadn't made the distinction between your Wing Chun and the mma blending and didn't realise that you taught them separately. Nice that your on here to put the record straight.

No problem at all. Also happy to talk to guys that have open minds. Thanks

[Alan Orr]

Lo im not a wing chun guy but I just knew as soon as I read the thread title the two people who would go off on one about it not being wing chun etc etc….funny how said people claim to come from a fighting wing chun line yet cant post any clips of them actually fighting like Alan’s guys can, also funny how one of them feels the need to rant over and over about it but then say when challenged I really don’t care…….:)


Yes you have it. Why do they rant? What does it do to help wing chun or training wing chun.

[k gledhill]

Not even sure what you are taking about or why you even feel the need to do so.


Forget it, aside from ignoring every question aimed at you , from what I am seeing it doesnt matter to VT anyway, carry on doing whatever it is you're doing :D

[JPinAZ]

Its hard when you watch a video with limited understanding to see the control of weight, power, timing and so on. I am playing with my students in my class, sometimes I give them pressure for them to learn and react. You guys have such an obsession about what I do. Its so funny, if you don't like it then don't want it.

Posting what you think I am doing or what you think I am not doing when you have never even met me or had first hand experience of my system is such a joke.

I keep saying - this is Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun - therefore what you are seeing is not the wing chun you do. Thats the whole point. lol

Haha, now you think so highly of yourself that you think everyone is obsessed with you?? Thanks for the laugh! If you don't like the comments, maybe you should stop posting up videos of yourself. (unless you secretly hope everyone idols you likeyou imply here..)

Look, a thread got started with one of your vids, and after people commented that it doesn't look at all like WC (same as has been said for years), you came here to defend that all of your stand up is WC (CSL or not - the CSL part is just your sifu's name). I'm just commenting on what I see - in all your videos, not too hard to see with so many of them. And I can't see a clear example of the first idea of WC centerline principle in most of them. For me, without that, that's where 'using WC' pretty much ends.

So you're right, it's not like the wing chun I do. Nor does it look like any other I've seen. And that's my point. Nothing more to say.

[GlennR]

That clip actually looks good. But would it look as good if the other guy was really putting pressure on PB and really trying to hit him instead of simply posing for strikes? In Alan/s clip there was pressure from both sides.

Id lean towards your assessment here Phil.

PB's clip is ok, but lets be serious. He's got a guy feeding him WC techniques at a longish boxing range.
Look around the 1.10 mark or so for eg.

The guys never going to hit PB and he just picks his attack of as he knows exctly where its going to come from... though he does do it nicely.
There is no way he could do the same to a boxer with say 5 years experience.

In regards to Alans clip, i think it a bit more realistic as i feel his range is more a WC range (IMO) and i see power and structure constantly applied.... i like it better

But having said that, as ive said before, its a range thing.
Neither right or wrong... they just have a preference for a different take on combat and it shows.

I'll go back to my boxing comparison between Ali-Frazier.... both very diffferent styles but both, without a doubt, boxing.

[Alan Orr]

Haha, now you think so highly of yourself that you think everyone is obsessed with you?? Thanks for the laugh! If you don't like the comments, maybe you should stop posting up videos of yourself. (unless you secretly hope everyone idols you likeyou imply here..)

Look, a thread got started with one of your vids, and after people commented that it doesn't look at all like WC (same as has been said for years), you came here to defend that all of your stand up is WC (CSL or not - the CSL part is just your sifu's name). I'm just commenting on what I see - in all your videos, not too hard to see with so many of them. And I can't see a clear example of the first idea of WC centerline principle in most of them. For me, without that, that's where 'using WC' pretty much ends.

So you're right, it's not like the wing chun I do. Nor does it look like any other I've seen. And that's my point. Nothing more to say.


Number one - I didn't start the thread. I only came on as you and the same old few jump on anything I do or say. Which is fine as it has no meaning and adds no value.

My wing chun is not limited to quoting maxims and as for centreline lol you can not see what you have not been taught. Your lack of depth is not my problem.

[Alan Orr]

Forget it, aside from ignoring every question aimed at you , from what I am seeing it doesnt matter to VT anyway, carry on doing whatever it is you're doing :D



Thank you, I will carry on lol

What is your question? I will answer it for you.

[k gledhill]

Thank you, I will carry on lol

What is your question? I will answer it for you.


Never mind....:D

[Grumblegeezer]

Am curious, as a young man I trained and fought Muay Thai as a professional albeit low level. Now I am an old sick man and may be unaware of changes or improvements in fighting techniques as the only input I have now is watching UFC at times.

My experience is that you fight as you train. You seem to heavily train and rely on an attack I have rarely ever seen used and never was taught or trained when I was fighting.

In your videos it seems that 50% give or take of your strikes are chops from over a fak or bong position. This attack has always been for me a chi sao attack having very little use when fighting another trained fighter. Do you have any videos you can show of the use of this technique in a trained fighter vs trained fighter match? Do you train your fighters to do chop after chop after chop as you demonstrate in your chi sau videos?

I'd like to get Alan's response to this too, although frankly I don't see the problem. Following bong sau by rolling over to a chopping fak sau is pretty standard WC fare. Often the target is the throat. If you didn't see it in Muay Thai, perhaps it was because of the rules rather than it not being effective? Also, you can change the fak to a backfist like Bruce Lee, or even make it a hammer-fist, like a number two strike in Escrima. Seems useful to me.

[Alan Orr]

Am curious, as a young man I trained and fought Muay Thai as a professional albeit low level. Now I am an old sick man and may be unaware of changes or improvements in fighting techniques as the only input I have now is watching UFC at times.

My experience is that you fight as you train. You seem to heavily train and rely on an attack I have rarely ever seen used and never was taught or trained when I was fighting.

In your videos it seems that 50% give or take of your strikes are chops from over a fak or bong position. This attack has always been for me a chi sao attack having very little use when fighting another trained fighter. Do you have any videos you can show of the use of this technique in a trained fighter vs trained fighter match? Do you train your fighters to do chop after chop after chop as you demonstrate in your chi sau videos?

Good question. This is the whole point of my my first clip



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhownwwVHdA&context=C275f2ADOEgsToPDskIvgJXX20Dl7u7A6wJrJfzZ


You learn about movement and control of timing in Chi Sao - the application of a chop is good for the street, in the ring its would be a punch or elbow etc.

The main thing is understanding the training methods and understanding how they then work under different types of pressure.

Wing Chun for me is a system of self understanding. Know you base and power, position and timing. Then we just punch and kick, but with a developed awareness.


This clip is just a training clip, but it is not a demo or planned roll. Like in BJJ you roll and learn from the movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SJrVX2Nr68&context=C218dcADOEgsToPDskKSbRxtRNOj81qDAdVKPxea

Once you have that feedback then you learn and look to improve each time


This clip is light sparring. We are looking to use are wing chun skills, elbow control, power, base etc When Aaron goes to throw me I was able to be ready to reverse him as I had already set up my position of weight to counter.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO_DDxUqb84


This is our pad work training -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn4cESTpDuo&feature=related

Its our first sparring and pad training after some time out due to injuries. So you will see better stuff as we do more as well.

We will be posting clips and Q&A each week. I don't care for demos and planned clips. We will just be showing normal training and learning.

My Q&A will be questions people ask me and the answers will be my view on the subject.

[Wayfaring]

Here is a clip of a guy exchanging with another , it looks like VT , he moves like VT, he is using techniques from VT. He learned from a man considered to be a VT fighter.


CLIP (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Ving-Tsun-USA/201018736610508#!/photo.php?v=294753497213212)

Oh, I don't know, compared to Alan's sparring videos this clip looks a little more like a slap fight before going to the disco?

[Wayfaring]

We will be posting clips and Q&A each week. I don't care for demos and planned clips. We will just be showing normal training and learning.

My Q&A will be questions people ask me and the answers will be my view on the subject.

I'm sure one could criticize every little aspect of the clips if they were so inclined. Too much leaning forward with chops, not enough centerline. Not enough clean tan, bong, fuk. All blocks and no slips on the pad work. Not staying in the pocket in sparring.

I want to point out some positives. I like that your training has progression between the standard chi sau control structures to the open engagement free sparring including entry techniques. I like that instead of just doing no strike or very light strike chi sau you are also doing boxing focus mitts training harder strikes.

I think people doing a lot of the slap boxing type drills where you never are in the position to get hit hard are doing themselves a disservice. It's amazing people see that as 'the real VT' or whatever.

I think more WCK schools should implement some training methods like you show in your clips. Even if they do them with their own 'perfect' WCK techniques. And for all you WCK guys with the perfect techniques, here's a little clip of some mitt work for inspiration - are you tougher than an 8 yr old? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbQkoih0SZM

[LoneTiger108]

This is what I love about Alan, his team and their approach to training :D

Now I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with anything anyone has said here but I have a respect for anyone who is actually striving to improve themselves and their students. This is what I believe Alan is doing and has done for many years.

Sure, it's not my cup of tea but at least Alan states it's Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun and doesn't make any claims like he has it all and everyone else is wrong etc etc like others do here so often!

Bottom line. Each to their own in this wide Wing/Ving Chun/Tsun community ;)

[k gledhill]

Oh, I don't know, compared to Alan's sparring videos this clip looks a little more like a slap fight before going to the disco?

So much for your understanding of Ving Tsun. Noted for future input from you, you dont know wtf you're talking about, thanks ;)

[wingchunIan]

I'll go back to my boxing comparison between Ali-Frazier.... both very diffferent styles but both, without a doubt, boxing.

Nice analogy. Nobody ever bats an eyelid that Tyson, Amir Khan, Mayweather, Klitschko etc are all boxers but they all look very very different in the way they apply their techniques and the fighting philosophies that they choose to adopt.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Typical WC thread.
If it's not MY WC and doesn't look like MY WC then it is wrong and isn't WC.

Typical WC thread.

[Alan Orr]

Typical WC thread.
If it's not MY WC and doesn't look like MY WC then it is wrong and isn't WC.

Typical WC thread.

Nice post

Yes its very funny. I thought forums where for sharing, but it seems some people are unsettled by what they don't understand.

[Alan Orr]

So much for your understanding of Ving Tsun. Noted for future input from you, you dont know wtf you're talking about, thanks ;)

So if its not what you are doing then its all wrong. Shame you have no good examples that show that.

Well as you said if its not like the wing chun you know then it must be another art that does work.

[Alan Orr]

This is what I love about Alan, his team and their approach to training :D

Now I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with anything anyone has said here but I have a respect for anyone who is actually striving to improve themselves and their students. This is what I believe Alan is doing and has done for many years.

Sure, it's not my cup of tea but at least Alan states it's Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun and doesn't make any claims like he has it all and everyone else is wrong etc etc like others do here so often!

Bottom line. Each to their own in this wide Wing/Ving Chun/Tsun community ;)


Good post.

[Alan Orr]

I'm sure one could criticize every little aspect of the clips if they were so inclined. Too much leaning forward with chops, not enough centerline. Not enough clean tan, bong, fuk. All blocks and no slips on the pad work. Not staying in the pocket in sparring.

I want to point out some positives. I like that your training has progression between the standard chi sau control structures to the open engagement free sparring including entry techniques. I like that instead of just doing no strike or very light strike chi sau you are also doing boxing focus mitts training harder strikes.

I think people doing a lot of the slap boxing type drills where you never are in the position to get hit hard are doing themselves a disservice. It's amazing people see that as 'the real VT' or whatever.

I think more WCK schools should implement some training methods like you show in your clips. Even if they do them with their own 'perfect' WCK techniques. And for all you WCK guys with the perfect techniques, here's a little clip of some mitt work for inspiration - are you tougher than an 8 yr old? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbQkoih0SZM


Yes, see this is a balanced post. The points made are your point of view on what you can see, all cool. The clips are just part of training that day without trying to dress them up or make them into demos. Real training and learning skills via our wing chun.

[Buddha_Fist]

The question of what defines a boxing method as being Ving Tsun has its merits though. I'm no fan of people who claim that Ving Tsun can take all shapes and forms, and that you can call anything you want Ving Tsun.

I think that the key lies in what Sanjuro brought up in the first page, about Ving Tsun being principle or (I prefer this term) strategy based.

Traditionally there were Ving Tsun Kuen Kuit providing guidance on the strategies that are pursued. A few examples:

Loi Lau, Hoi Song, Lat Sau Jik Chung - Intercept what comes, pursue what goes, attack instinctively when the hands are free
Lin Siu Dai Da - Simultaneous attack and defense

The forms provide guidance on the mechanics while reinforcing habits that are imbued with the strategies. We are introduced to facing (Chiu Ying) right from the get-go through the basic stance, Yi Ji Kim Yuen Ma. Same goes with the punch traveling a straight line (economy of motion) without excessive shoulder engagement (which hints towards the engine behind all actions). You work hard to maintain balance throughout Chum Kiu, while going through quick hip rotations, stepping, etc., so it makes little sense to compromise these habits by working against them in Chi-Sao by leaning on your opponent. Bong Sao is performed in a flick, never held up for long periods of times, as we don't want to remain in a defensive and reactionary position, but rather transition immediately over to the attack (Lin Siu Dai Da). And the list goes on and on...

You can judge whether something is good Ving Tsun based on whether the practitioner adheres to these strategies. Pak Sao, Bong Sao, Jut Sao, etc. are just supporting tools to the main action, the attack. Of course, the bottom line will be whether it works in a fight. But the bottom line is not what defines Ving Tsun. If the bottom line defined whether something is Ving Tsun, then Muay Thai could be called Ving Tsun.

People claim that a video is just a video and that it does not show "what is really going on". I think that on the contrary, videos do give us the opportunity to see in action whether and how the practitioner adheres to Ving Tsun strategies under the given set of circumstances.

[Sean66]

Good post, Buddha_Fist!

[Vajramusti]

Good post, Buddha_Fist!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

yes- a good post.

[k gledhill]

So if its not what you are doing then its all wrong. Shame you have no good examples that show that.

Well as you said if its not like the wing chun you know then it must be another art that does work.


I post clips but guys dont see what I see....I see errors in VT, not right or wrong, we are all trying to execute the system to the best of our knowledge. I simply dispute certain things and I am the closed minded one :rolleyes:

Watch Philipp more closely....

[k gledhill]

The question of what defines a boxing method as being Ving Tsun has its merits though. I'm no fan of people who claim that Ving Tsun can take all shapes and forms, and that you can call anything you want Ving Tsun.

I think that the key lies in what Sanjuro brought up in the first page, about Ving Tsun being principle or (I prefer this term) strategy based.

Traditionally there were Ving Tsun Kuen Kuit providing guidance on the strategies that are pursued. A few examples:

Loi Lau, Hoi Song, Lat Sau Jik Chung - Intercept what comes, pursue what goes, attack instinctively when the hands are free
Lin Siu Dai Da - Simultaneous attack and defense

The forms provide guidance on the mechanics while reinforcing habits that are imbued with the strategies. We are introduced to facing (Chiu Ying) right from the get-go through the basic stance, Yi Ji Kim Yuen Ma. Same goes with the punch traveling a straight line (economy of motion) without excessive shoulder engagement (which hints towards the engine behind all actions). You work hard to maintain balance throughout Chum Kiu, while going through quick hip rotations, stepping, etc., so it makes little sense to compromise these habits by working against them in Chi-Sao by leaning on your opponent. Bong Sao is performed in a flick, never held up for long periods of times, as we don't want to remain in a defensive and reactionary position, but rather transition immediately over to the attack (Lin Siu Dai Da). And the list goes on and on...

You can judge whether something is good Ving Tsun based on whether the practitioner adheres to these strategies. Pak Sao, Bong Sao, Jut Sao, etc. are just supporting tools to the main action, the attack. Of course, the bottom line will be whether it works in a fight. But the bottom line is not what defines Ving Tsun. If the bottom line defined whether something is Ving Tsun, then Muay Thai could be called Ving Tsun.

People claim that a video is just a video and that it does not show "what is really going on". I think that on the contrary, videos do give us the opportunity to see in action whether and how the practitioner adheres to Ving Tsun strategies under the given set of circumstances.

exactly...... good post ! depends where guys are on the learning curve to be able to comprehend what they are seeing as examples...

[JPinAZ]

Yes its very funny. I thought forums where for sharing, but it seems some people are unsettled by what they don't understand.

You are 100% spot on! Forums are for sharing: of views and opinions. And guess what, a lot of times, they are going to differ. It's pretty obvious, that unless a post say "hey alan, great job, you're awesome, keep up the good work", then you get in a huff, say the poster is 'unsettled', 'doesn't understand', 'can't see' etc. If no one can 'see' what's going on, then why are you posting videos (on youtube) & selling videos if it doesn't show anything?
If some people don't see what you are doing as WC, so what? My advice: get over yourself, stop being so sensitive and grow some thicker skin dude.

You and your guys train hard and you fight hard. It shows in your videos and the records of your guys. But, what I SEE in almost every video of you and your guys doing both tells me you are ignoring some main/basic priciples of WC that I assumed was pretty common among WC practitioners. There, is that 'balanced' enough for your fragile sensitivities?

If you go back and reread my posts to you, you'll see a some of both sides in all of them. If you're going to post up vids, you should be cool with taking the good and the bad. it's just how it goes. Lighten up

[sanjuro_ronin]

The question of what defines a boxing method as being Ving Tsun has its merits though. I'm no fan of people who claim that Ving Tsun can take all shapes and forms, and that you can call anything you want Ving Tsun.

I think that the key lies in what Sanjuro brought up in the first page, about Ving Tsun being principle or (I prefer this term) strategy based.

Traditionally there were Ving Tsun Kuen Kuit providing guidance on the strategies that are pursued. A few examples:

Loi Lau, Hoi Song, Lat Sau Jik Chung - Intercept what comes, pursue what goes, attack instinctively when the hands are free
Lin Siu Dai Da - Simultaneous attack and defense

The forms provide guidance on the mechanics while reinforcing habits that are imbued with the strategies. We are introduced to facing (Chiu Ying) right from the get-go through the basic stance, Yi Ji Kim Yuen Ma. Same goes with the punch traveling a straight line (economy of motion) without excessive shoulder engagement (which hints towards the engine behind all actions). You work hard to maintain balance throughout Chum Kiu, while going through quick hip rotations, stepping, etc., so it makes little sense to compromise these habits by working against them in Chi-Sao by leaning on your opponent. Bong Sao is performed in a flick, never held up for long periods of times, as we don't want to remain in a defensive and reactionary position, but rather transition immediately over to the attack (Lin Siu Dai Da). And the list goes on and on...

You can judge whether something is good Ving Tsun based on whether the practitioner adheres to these strategies. Pak Sao, Bong Sao, Jut Sao, etc. are just supporting tools to the main action, the attack. Of course, the bottom line will be whether it works in a fight. But the bottom line is not what defines Ving Tsun. If the bottom line defined whether something is Ving Tsun, then Muay Thai could be called Ving Tsun.

People claim that a video is just a video and that it does not show "what is really going on". I think that on the contrary, videos do give us the opportunity to see in action whether and how the practitioner adheres to Ving Tsun strategies under the given set of circumstances.

Well said bro and if I may add this:
We need to remember that the WC of a person that is 100% WC will be different than a person who has other systems in their background, but it is still WC.
A 5 foot 6 inch person that weights 140lbs and one that weights 230 and is 6-2 will NOT show the same WC, nor will a 20 yr old compared to a 60 or a woman compared to a man or a recreational WC practioner compared to a dedicated one.

[Dragonzbane76]

then why are you posting videos if it doesn't show anything?

actually I don't think he posted the video, someone else did. But really who cares.

[Frost]

I know I am not alone when I say that I dont see VT 100% stand-up as I know it.
Making a clip to rationalize the fact that nobody else see's it either speaks volumes, nuff said from me.

another clip, looks like vt in action to me... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaCsPgUL1V8&feature=related)

looks like a slap fest to me, no real power, only one side actually doing anything the student is being nice....maybe if you could post a clip of you doing sparring, chi sau, and pad work like alan did we can compare the two, otherwise its like night and day.......but i suspect thats not going to happen this side of christmas....or next

[Sean66]

What it looks like to you is one thing, but I can guarantee you that Philipp packs a punch like a sledgehammer, and his jut sau can just about rip your arm off.

Philipp is a fighter. Always has been. The guy has had more than his share of action and never had to throw more than a couple of punches in order to finish the job, as far as I know.

I've seen people try their ****edest to hit him, and they look like the student in the clip. I've seen it first hand and experienced it first hand.

I know this is only anecdotal evidence and I'm almost positive that you won't believe me, but nonetheless I'm being honest.

In any event, to get on topic, I do respect Alan for being passionate about what he does and for trying to make his thing work for him and his students in the ring. Even if it's not my type of wing chun, more power to him. I wish him success.

[JPinAZ]

actually I don't think he posted the video, someone else did. But really who cares.

Yes, I know. I'm referring to posting videos in general (on youtube). I fixed my post so there's no further confusion.

[Vajramusti]

looks like a slap fest to me, no real power, only one side actually doing anything the student is being nice....maybe if you could post a clip of you doing sparring, chi sau, and pad work like alan did we can compare the two, otherwise its like night and day.......but i suspect thats not going to happen this side of christmas....or next
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do neither PB wing chun or CSL wing chun but I wish them both well.

It's not uncommom for non wing chunners to misunderstand some actions of some wing chun folks.
What PB is doing is not a slap fest. The power is there but is controlled-ditto for AO's chops.

In both cases as much power as is needed can be turned on.

joy chaudhuri

[Frost]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do neither PB wing chun or CSL wing chun but I wish them both well.

It's not uncommom for non wing chunners to misunderstand some actions of some wing chun folks.
What PB is doing is not a slap fest. The power is there but is controlled-ditto for AO's chops.

In both cases as much power as is needed can be turned on.

joy chaudhuri

really and you know this because you have crossed hands with them both Joy, or because you can recognise the power in their structure?

sincere question because i have seen plenty of people look good against students and in demos who appear to have great structure but who come apart in full contact fights under real pressure, i tend to believe Alan more because he and his guys have video evidence that they can produce that power when needed

PB nor his guys seem to show this yet manage to talk about it endlessly (not PB but his students i should clarify)

[k gledhill]

looks like a slap fest to me, no real power, only one side actually doing anything the student is being nice....maybe if you could post a clip of you doing sparring, chi sau, and pad work like alan did we can compare the two, otherwise its like night and day.......but i suspect thats not going to happen this side of christmas....or next

Like another here who mentions his inability to see you dont even do VT so who cares what YOU think Frosty mate....:confused: why am I even responding to you :confused:

[Frost]

Like another here who mentions his inability to see you dont even do VT so who cares what YOU think Frosty mate....:confused: why am I even responding to you :confused:

probably because you have a desperate need to be believed mate:)

And only my friends call me frosty Kevin :)

i think we all wonder why you respond to so many people telling them they dont do wing chun, cant fight etc yet can only post clips of your teacher having a slap fest i mean if it bothers you that much to respond why not just post the clips...or go and meet phil :)

[k gledhill]

What it looks like to you is one thing, but I can guarantee you that Philipp packs a punch like a sledgehammer, and his jut sau can just about rip your arm off.

Philipp is a fighter. Always has been. The guy has had more than his share of action and never had to throw more than a couple of punches in order to finish the job, as far as I know.

I've seen people try their ****edest to hit him, and they look like the student in the clip. I've seen it first hand and experienced it first hand.

I know this is only anecdotal evidence and I'm almost positive that you won't believe me, but nonetheless I'm being honest.

In any event, to get on topic, I do respect Alan for being passionate about what he does and for trying to make his thing work for him and his students in the ring. Even if it's not my type of wing chun, more power to him. I wish him success.

Likewise I have had PB in my face too :D just staying facing him is hard enough for me ...I felt like a revolving door trying to find my center. He showed me my errors, a long list :D

I too respect Alan for his fighting. BUT the unseen VT :confused: , ergo my posts are to SEE VT is not so unheard of.

[k gledhill]

probably because you have a desperate need to be believed mate:)

And only my friends call me frosty Kevin :)

i think we all wonder why you respond to so many people telling them they dont do wing chun, cant fight etc yet can only post clips of your teacher having a slap fest i mean if it bothers you that much to respond why not just post the clips...or go and meet phil :)

I am thinking of another name for you right now, try your telepathic ability ;)

Phil and I will meet if we can figure it out...I have a life and so does he :D you should try getting one instead of making worthless posts.

Yes I am desperate to be believed, you nailed it :D

[Vajramusti]

really and you know this because you have crossed hands with them both Joy, or because you can recognise the power in their structure?

sincere question because i have seen plenty of people look good against students and in demos who appear to have great structure but who come apart in full contact fights under real pressure, i tend to believe Alan more because he and his guys have video evidence that they can produce that power when needed

PB nor his guys seem to show this yet manage to talk about it endlessly (not PB but his students i should clarify)
__________________________________________________ ___________________
No- I have not crossed hands with either--and yes and after my years of martial arts and martial sport and experience one can see things. Both appear to have their strengths and weaknesses.
But they are not preaching to me and I am not preaching to them.Of course being face to face is a different thing, you never quite know about real timing and speed from videos- but this is a discussion board- so some educated guesses can take place.

I don't pay much attention to the tiresome and not very articulate marketing by two of PB's followers

joy chaudhuri

[Alan Orr]

exactly...... good post ! depends where guys are on the learning curve to be able to comprehend what they are seeing as examples...



Yes and its clear you have a limited view of wing chun by the way you rant about it wrong if you don't understand it. very funny

[Alan Orr]

You are 100% spot on! Forums are for sharing: of views and opinions. And guess what, a lot of times, they are going to differ. It's pretty obvious, that unless a post say "hey alan, great job, you're awesome, keep up the good work", then you get in a huff, say the poster is 'unsettled', 'doesn't understand', 'can't see' etc. If no one can 'see' what's going on, then why are you posting videos (on youtube) & selling videos if it doesn't show anything?
If some people don't see what you are doing as WC, so what? My advice: get over yourself, stop being so sensitive and grow some thicker skin dude.

You and your guys train hard and you fight hard. It shows in your videos and the records of your guys. But, what I SEE in almost every video of you and your guys doing both tells me you are ignoring some main/basic priciples of WC that I assumed was pretty common among WC practitioners. There, is that 'balanced' enough for your fragile sensitivities?

If you go back and reread my posts to you, you'll see a some of both sides in all of them. If you're going to post up vids, you should be cool with taking the good and the bad. it's just how it goes. Lighten up

I am more than happy to hear people views on wing chun, but as I have seen the styles they talk about first hand - I feel I have more insight to what they can and can't do with wing chun. The guys on this forum that have the most to say about what I do have never had any first hand experience of my system. So it is funny to me when they say things like I am missing the basic principles of wing chun. It is more that very funny. Really with so much missing we can have so much success. Crazy to think about what will happen when we get it right.

I post videos as lots of people email me asking for clips and I also think its good to show wing chun from a system that has a different take of how to use the style. Our body structure is different. I can say that due to 25 years training in wing chun and having checked out so many styles of wing chun around the world.

Its the small minded people that have so much to say but never show anything or prove anything that I find boring to listen too.

[Alan Orr]

really and you know this because you have crossed hands with them both Joy, or because you can recognise the power in their structure?

sincere question because i have seen plenty of people look good against students and in demos who appear to have great structure but who come apart in full contact fights under real pressure, i tend to believe Alan more because he and his guys have video evidence that they can produce that power when needed

PB nor his guys seem to show this yet manage to talk about it endlessly (not PB but his students i should clarify)

Yes agreed. My guys have add over 150 Fights now - MMA from amateur to Pro. Boxing, Kickboxing. I teach Professional MMA fighters who would not come to me if it didn't work. We have many championship Belts, at the Chi Sao event we won 8 out of 9 Golds. None of my guys even post of forums unless someone is talking about us, even then its mostly me that will come on as say something. We are not big forum talkers as we are doing it not talking about it!

We found our answers from my teacher Robert Chu and from testing and gaining feedback in the real world.

[k gledhill]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddha_Fist View Post
The question of what defines a boxing method as being Ving Tsun has its merits though. I'm no fan of people who claim that Ving Tsun can take all shapes and forms, and that you can call anything you want Ving Tsun.

I think that the key lies in what Sanjuro brought up in the first page, about Ving Tsun being principle or (I prefer this term) strategy based.

Traditionally there were Ving Tsun Kuen Kuit providing guidance on the strategies that are pursued. A few examples:

Loi Lau, Hoi Song, Lat Sau Jik Chung - Intercept what comes, pursue what goes, attack instinctively when the hands are free
Lin Siu Dai Da - Simultaneous attack and defense

The forms provide guidance on the mechanics while reinforcing habits that are imbued with the strategies. We are introduced to facing (Chiu Ying) right from the get-go through the basic stance, Yi Ji Kim Yuen Ma. Same goes with the punch traveling a straight line (economy of motion) without excessive shoulder engagement (which hints towards the engine behind all actions). You work hard to maintain balance throughout Chum Kiu, while going through quick hip rotations, stepping, etc., so it makes little sense to compromise these habits by working against them in Chi-Sao by leaning on your opponent. Bong Sao is performed in a flick, never held up for long periods of times, as we don't want to remain in a defensive and reactionary position, but rather transition immediately over to the attack (Lin Siu Dai Da). And the list goes on and on...

You can judge whether something is good Ving Tsun based on whether the practitioner adheres to these strategies. Pak Sao, Bong Sao, Jut Sao, etc. are just supporting tools to the main action, the attack. Of course, the bottom line will be whether it works in a fight. But the bottom line is not what defines Ving Tsun. If the bottom line defined whether something is Ving Tsun, then Muay Thai could be called Ving Tsun.

People claim that a video is just a video and that it does not show "what is really going on". I think that on the contrary, videos do give us the opportunity to see in action whether and how the practitioner adheres to Ving Tsun strategies under the given set of circumstances.

Originally Posted by k gledhill , exactly...... good post ! depends where guys are on the learning curve to be able to comprehend what they are seeing as examples...


Yes and its clear you have a limited view of wing chun by the way you rant about it wrong if you don't understand it. very funny

I stand by my response to Buddah fist....time spent is no guarantee you will understand either.

[Alan Orr]

I stand by my response to Buddah fist....time spent is no guarantee you will understand either.

Its not just about time spent, its about experience and understanding the system which you train in.

Why don't you post some clips of your training or better still sparring. Show us what you think works.

[R]

Thanks, but I know how to read. I don't need your silly guidance. :rolleyes:

So we're clear, I was talking about the first clip on this thread where you mention you don't use pak, bong, etc (being, in your words, 'beginning' techniques) then later, step back to non-contact range to deomonstrate sparring (your words), and defend with those exact techniques. I was just commenting on your inconsistancies/conttradictions in that video. That's all.
Now, if you are saying that in the end, in WC, we don't focus on the techniques, but more-so the body mechanics and principals of WC, I'd agree.

IMO, after watching your latest string of videos, I would say I see a lot of leaning, pushing, shoving, grabbing, muscling, self up-rooting, giving up space resulting in a lot of your self centerline distortions. For me, this is not in-line with even the basic of WC centerline principles of self centerline. Maybe that's ok in your WC, and more power to you if it's working for you and your guys. And, I do give you credit for hard work and posting clips for your MMA accomplishments and training.
But from my understanding of even the basics of WC, without proper self-centerline, it's hard to argue you're 'using wing chun' since that's where WC starts..

I attended a seminar years ago with representatives from a number of WC/VT systems (WSL/CSL/IC/etc) and Alan was presenting his systems view of how to apply the principles. Now I did a vietnamiese and a HK version of WC in my younger days and found nothing wrong with what I saw in spite of Alan having a different approach than my sifus did. I would suggest that you might not think things were so '''obvious'' should you attend a seminar or drop by Alan's club and have a taste of what his hands feel like. Things are not always as obvious as you might think when being a video critic.

And by the way.. I have no affiliation to the WC community anymore so I have no stake in any systems approach. I do recognise good application of principles and that is more important than anything else to me...

R

[k gledhill]

Its not just about time spent, its about experience and understanding the system which you train in.

Why don't you post some clips of your training or better still sparring. Show us what you think works.


Thanks but I feel that YM > WSL> PB > ME have a better grasp of understanding what I am talking about.
I have shown YOU !! its like corresponding with a brick wall of look at me , cant see you :D

jpin az hit it, its love me or f off ;)

[Alan Orr]

I attended a seminar years ago with representatives from a number of WC/VT systems (WSL/CSL/IC/etc) and Alan was presenting his systems view of how to apply the principles. Now I did a vietnamiese and a HK version of WC in my younger days and found nothing wrong with what I saw in spite of Alan having a different approach than my sifus did. I would suggest that you might not think things were so '''obvious'' should you attend a seminar or drop by Alan's club and have a taste of what his hands feel like. Things are not always as obvious as you might think when being a video critic.

And by the way.. I have no affiliation to the WC community anymore so I have no stake in any systems approach. I do recognise good application of principles and that is more important than anything else to me...

R

Thank you, nice to hear from someone with some first hand experience and an open mind.

[Alan Orr]

Thanks but I feel that YM > WSL> PB > ME have a better grasp of understanding what I am talking about.
I have shown YOU !! its like corresponding with a brick wall of look at me , cant see you :D

jpin az hit it, its love me or f off ;)

You are both CSL haters that's no problem to me.

I'm not interested in your opinion at all, as you only have a limited point of view. I know lots of WSL guys so I know your method and can see it very clearly. Also many on my students where WSL guys for 10 years plus before coming to me. Just because you think you have it right it may in fact not be the case.

What have you shown? PB doing a demo - so? What does that show? A demo with no pressure doesn't show much. I can see the good and bad points, I can see where his level is within the WSL groups, I can see what he has and as not. Big deal. Its nothing to do with what I do I how I see wing chun. Not even sure why you posted them? Oh to show me the correct wing chun you where talking about again. The post was someone wanting to show my clip, so it was about me lol but you only want to PB lol cool, then start another sticky post on PB so we know which post we are on.

[k gledhill]

You are both CSL haters that's no problem to me.

I'm not interested in your opinion at all, as you only have a limited point of view. I know lots of WSL guys so I know your method and can see it very clearly. Also many on my students where WSL guys for 10 years plus before coming to me. Just because you think you have it right it may in fact not be the case.

What have you shown? PB doing a demo - so? What does that show? A demo with no pressure doesn't show much. I can see the good and bad points, I can see where his level is within the WSL groups, I can see what he has and as not. Big deal. Its nothing to do with what I do I how I see wing chun. Not even sure why you posted them? Oh to show me the correct wing chun you where talking about again. The post was someone wanting to show my clip, so it was about me lol but you only want to PB lol cool, then start another sticky post on PB so we know which post we are on.




Too much about not much....:D

[Phil Redmond]

I started this post because I liked what I saw. Not for people to have a P***ing contest.
Kev, Graham you need to be more open minded. WSL wasn't closed minded. He even said to not be a slave to WC. You should follow that example. :)

[GlennR]

I started this post because I liked what I saw. Not for people to have a P***ing contest.
Kev, Graham you need to be more open minded. WSL wasn't closed minded. He even said to not be a slave to WC. You should follow that example. :)

Wont happen Phil... theyre too far into the bagging of anything non-PB to back out now.

[k gledhill]

I started this post because I liked what I saw. Not for people to have a p**ing contest.
Kev, Graham you need to be more open minded. WSL wasn't closed minded. He even said to not be a slave to WC. You should follow that example. :)

Trust me there's an army of guys who are right behind my opinions....:D And we all have open minds.

...as for WSL , he implied that we [wsl students] shouldnt adhere to the strict elbow drilling we go through while developing when actually FIGHTING . The elbow is our master and we are the slave to its perfection...:D:D 1cm or death as Moshe puts it so eloquently .

Philipp Bayer jokingly mentioned that Ving Tsun could be called the 'School of the Elbow'.

[Dragonzbane76]

I like coming to the WC section, makes me feel better about myself. ;)
Jersey Shore up in here.

[Phil Redmond]

Trust me there's an army of guys who are right behind my opinions....:D And we all have open minds. . .
And there's and army that isn't. But thinking there are no answers to WC outside of your method is definitely not open minded. You learn that in any war school. Such thinking can result in some really bad surprises.

[RonBlair]

I post clips but guys dont see what I see....I see errors in VT, not right or wrong, we are all trying to execute the system to the best of our knowledge. I simply dispute certain things and I am the closed minded one :rolleyes:

Watch Philipp more closely....

Isn't Phiilip the guy with the missing hand who is always chi saoing? I would like to see some sparring clips if he has any.

Hello all. My name is Ron and I'm new to kfmagazine forums. I studied wing chun under the William Cheung lineage among other styles. I'm rather enjoying this thread.

[Alan Orr]

I started this post because I liked what I saw. Not for people to have a P***ing contest.
Kev, Graham you need to be more open minded. WSL wasn't closed minded. He even said to not be a slave to WC. You should follow that example. :)

Nice post Phil

[Alan Orr]

Trust me there's an army of guys who are right behind my opinions....:D And we all have open minds.

...as for WSL , he implied that we [wsl students] shouldnt adhere to the strict elbow drilling we go through while developing when actually FIGHTING . The elbow is our master and we are the slave to its perfection...:D:D 1cm or death as Moshe puts it so eloquently .

Philipp Bayer jokingly mentioned that Ving Tsun could be called the 'School of the Elbow'.

And once again your point is what? All wing chun have elbow control as a basic principle - its not magic. As requested show some clips of you in action, otherwise its all a bit boring to listen too.

[Phil Redmond]

And once again your point is what? All wing chun have elbow control as a basic principle - its not magic. As requested show some clips of you in action, otherwise its all a bit boring to listen too.
Well, Kevin said he's coming to my Chinatown class this Sunday. He helped me get my space to teach in the East Village so it'll be good to meet him for the first time.

[k gledhill]

And once again your point is what? All wing chun have elbow control as a basic principle - its not magic. As requested show some clips of you in action, otherwise its all a bit boring to listen too.

Sadly its lost on you, for someone with an open mind it seems firmly closed so no point trying to explain....

I can share with Phil directly , I know he has an open mind to fighting ideas :D

[Hardwork108]

Sadly its lost on you, for someone with an open mind it seems firmly closed so no point trying to explain....

I can share with Phil directly , I know he has an open mind to fighting ideas :D

I would not accuse Alan Orr, of all people, of having a closed mind if I were you. You just come across as silly, specially in view of the fact that you see all non-PB lineages of Wing Chun as lacking, which is also silly because just in Mainland China there are at least 7 other lineages of Wing Chun!

Alan Orr's lineage is different to mine, but the intelligent ones amongst us should respect his knowledge and lineage, and try to enhance our own knowledge by interacting with him and people like him.

[Hardwork108]

I like coming to the WC section, makes me feel better about myself. ;)

Well, in that case we need to report your case to the Vatican and see if the Pope will classify and confirm it as a true heavenly miracle, and perhaps even award the Wing Chun forum a Vatican medal!

[Hardwork108]

Trust me there's an army of guys who are right behind my opinions....:D And we all have open minds.

...as for WSL , he implied that we [wsl students] shouldnt adhere to the strict elbow drilling we go through while developing when actually FIGHTING . The elbow is our master and we are the slave to its perfection...:D:D 1cm or death as Moshe puts it so eloquently .

Philipp Bayer jokingly mentioned that Ving Tsun could be called the 'School of the Elbow'.

Ironic, when you guys claim, or at least imply that you do not use elbow striking drills/techniques..........

[k gledhill]

I would not accuse Alan Orr, of all people, of having a closed mind if I were you. You just come across as silly, specially in view of the fact that you see all non-PB lineages of Wing Chun as lacking, which is also silly because just in Mainland China there are at least 7 other lineages of Wing Chun!

Alan Orr's lineage is different to mine, but the intelligent ones amongst us should respect his knowledge and lineage, and try to enhance our own knowledge by interacting with him and people like him.


I have interacted with many , you and I did too...I am aware that there are many ideas out there and some very similar to my current one, so its not lost on me to stay open minded. I may sound silly to you but Im looking at it from my perspective of technical execution of certain principles and concepts that TO ME define Ving Tsun. If I DONT see them and someone tells me in a clip 'its there you just cant see it ', and contradicts himself in the following clips.....Im saying what I see.
I am not detracting from Alans fighting or mma records etc...just the "you cant see my WC because..." I post clips to show what I consider VT with visible tangible execution and here we are :D

[k gledhill]

Ironic, when you guys claim, or at least imply that you do not use elbow striking drills/techniques..........

You want to risk an elbow for maybe cutting a guy across the eye, versus a punch that doesnt risk as much..thats your call...I have scars from cuts from elbows but none dropped me :D

[Alan Orr]

Well, Kevin said he's coming to my Chinatown class this Sunday. He helped me get my space to teach in the East Village so it'll be good to meet him for the first time.

It would be great for you guys to fight some exchanges.

[Alan Orr]

Sadly its lost on you, for someone with an open mind it seems firmly closed so no point trying to explain....

I can share with Phil directly , I know he has an open mind to fighting ideas :D

LOL!!!l Of course I am opened minded. I have 4 martial arts teachers each excellent in their field. In conditioning I have 3 teachers again all very well respected in each area of skill.

How would I be able to train in BJJ to brown belt with a closed mind?? You are a joke. I have seen first hand your style so I already know what you are talking about - I just don't agree. But unlike you I have no need to make a big thing about it. Maybe because I am not worried about people having other points of view and your case being worried about a system of wing chun you can't understand. The fact that you can not see or understand the difference in my system and why we have just a good track record - tells me me only one thing. You have a limited view point of wing chun.

[Alan Orr]

I would not accuse Alan Orr, of all people, of having a closed mind if I were you. You just come across as silly, specially in view of the fact that you see all non-PB lineages of Wing Chun as lacking, which is also silly because just in Mainland China there are at least 7 other lineages of Wing Chun!

Alan Orr's lineage is different to mine, but the intelligent ones amongst us should respect his knowledge and lineage, and try to enhance our own knowledge by interacting with him and people like him.

Thank you. Yes this is the way forward for wing chun. I have many friends in other wing chun styles. We all get on very well.

[Alan Orr]

And there's and army that isn't. But thinking there are no answers to WC outside of your method is definitely not open minded. You learn that in any war school. Such thinking can result in some really bad surprises.

Excellent post Phil

[Alan Orr]

Isn't Phiilip the guy with the missing hand who is always chi saoing? I would like to see some sparring clips if he has any.

Hello all. My name is Ron and I'm new to kfmagazine forums. I studied wing chun under the William Cheung lineage among other styles. I'm rather enjoying this thread.

Hi Ron have fun on the forum! best Alan

[Hardwork108]

You want to risk an elbow for maybe cutting a guy across the eye, versus a punch that doesnt risk as much..thats your call...I have scars from cuts from elbows but none dropped me :D

There are dead people in Thailand, because of elbow strikes to the temple. Not using an elbow because you are risking it, is like saying you don't want to use a fist, because you don´t want to break a knuckle, or have your arm broken by a counter technique.....


Again, I find it hard to believe that someone has a Wing Chun system out there that does not use the elbow as a weapon!


Actually, it would be interesting to see Alan Orr´s opinion regarding the phenomenon of "elbowless wing chun".

[Buddha_Fist]

Again, there are some elbow strikes depending on position/situation, but we prefer to go back to punching distance given it is more advantageous as you are able to flank while attacking. It's about weighing risks and benefits in the strategies you use.

[Sean66]

Exactly, Buddah_Fist.
If the elbow is the closest weapon to the target and you can use it without putting yourself in a bad position, you use it.
Michael almost knocked me out once with an elbow strike during sparring. I got too close and tried to grapple him...and boom.

@Phil and Kevin:
I really hope you guys meet up. Friendly exchange is what we desperately need in the wing chun community.

[Dragonzbane76]

Again, I find it hard to believe that someone has a Wing Chun system out there that does not use the elbow as a weapon!

have to agree with you. And i have no experience in WC. I don't know any system in MA that doesn't take the elbow inot account.

[Frost]

I am thinking of another name for you right now, try your telepathic ability ;)

Phil and I will meet if we can figure it out...I have a life and so does he :D you should try getting one instead of making worthless posts.

Yes I am desperate to be believed, you nailed it :D
your life seems to revlove pretty much around telling others how wing chun should be done without actually showing them, nice life mate, as for the name calling well its about what i expect from you these days when your panties are in a twist :)

I Dont think you are desperate to be believed i think you are a classic LARPER fanboy :)

there used to be a few tell tell signs of larping on here lets see if you fit any of them (just for fun):
1) no clips anywhere (check)
2) always talking about your many street fights (check) and years on the door (check)
3) hero worship of one master and lineage as the correct way (check)
4) blinkered belief that your way is the only way (check)
5) constant willingness to post about how bad other linegaes are (check)

look 5 out of 5 well done mate

[k gledhill]

You know what I am asking. ;)


your life seems to revlove pretty much around telling others how wing chun should be done without actually showing them, nice life mate, as for the name calling well its about what i expect from you these days when your panties are in a twist :)

I Dont think you are desperate to be believed i think you are a classic LARPER fanboy :)

there used to be a few tell tell signs of larping on here lets see if you fit any of them (just for fun):
1) no clips anywhere (check)
2) always talking about your many street fights (check) and years on the door (check)
3) hero worship of one master and lineage as the correct way (check)
4) blinkered belief that your way is the only way (check)
5) constant willingness to post about how bad other linegaes are (check)

look 5 out of 5 well done mate

Read my mind......; )

You fit the classic troll list to the letter. You dont do vt either...you
regularly post worthless tripe about guys not posting clips...
...I am not here to be popular frost, just honest open criticism.

[Alan Orr]

your life seems to revlove pretty much around telling others how wing chun should be done without actually showing them, nice life mate, as for the name calling well its about what i expect from you these days when your panties are in a twist :)

I Dont think you are desperate to be believed i think you are a classic LARPER fanboy :)

there used to be a few tell tell signs of larping on here lets see if you fit any of them (just for fun):
1) no clips anywhere (check)
2) always talking about your many street fights (check) and years on the door (check)
3) hero worship of one master and lineage as the correct way (check)
4) blinkered belief that your way is the only way (check)
5) constant willingness to post about how bad other linegaes are (check)

look 5 out of 5 well done mate

I love this post lol

[Alan Orr]

There are dead people in Thailand, because of elbow strikes to the temple. Not using an elbow because you are risking it, is like saying you don't want to use a fist, because you don´t want to break a knuckle, or have your arm broken by a counter technique.....


Again, I find it hard to believe that someone has a Wing Chun system out there that does not use the elbow as a weapon!


Actually, it would be interesting to see Alan Orr´s opinion regarding the phenomenon of "elbowless wing chun".

Maybe the reason he has never been dropped by an elbow could be have something to do with the way he is training.

Elbows finish fights. We train and defend them for our wing chun and mma. The elbow is one of wing chun's best weapons when used correctly. Ie body power not shoulder power.

[Frost]

Read my mind......; )

You fit the classic troll list to the letter. You dont do vt either...you
regularly post worthless tripe about guys not posting clips...
...I am not here to be popular frost, just honest open criticism.

no i dont but then according to you theres only about three guys on the entire forum that do do VT so im in good company :)

[Phil Redmond]

I love this post lol
I've found out over the years that adversarial people online are sometimes really nice guys in person. :)

[NelisVingTsun]

I've found out over the years that adversarial people online are sometimes really nice guys in person. :)

Did you and Kevin met?

[k gledhill]

Maybe the reason he has never been dropped by an elbow could be have something to do with the way he is training.

Elbows finish fights. We train and defend them for our wing chun and mma. The elbow is one of wing chun's best weapons when used correctly. Ie body power not shoulder power.

Ironic, but I have knocked out a guy using an elbow...at the time it seemed the right thing to do...:D

[k gledhill]

no i dont but then according to you theres only about three guys on the entire forum that do do VT so im in good company :)

So our forums heckler doesn't even do vt , perfect.

[Hardwork108]

Ironic, but I have knocked out a guy using an elbow...at the time it seemed the right thing to do...:D
If you know that the elbow strikes work, then why doesn't your system train it as a part of its regular Wing Chun arsenal?

Why do people keep simplifying Wing Chun, further and further? How long before we have "lineages" that only teach people to chase each other in the kwoon, with chain punches?

IMHO, despite popular belief Wing Chun is not a "simple" art. It is a d@mn complicated one, but when mastered, then its simplicity comes out. So, people who further "simplify" the art by cutting bits and pieces out, are not keeping up with the art's essence. Instead they are going against this.

Wing Chun in its original form is a very rich art and covers all ranges of fighting and provides its practitioners with the necessary arsenal (hand, elbow, feet and knee strikes, as well as Chin.na techniques) to be used in these ranges, using its PRINCIPLES and CONCEPTS.

People who are trimming this art in order to achieve some imagined level effectiveness or to standardize it for easier teaching purposes are not only doing dis-service to their Wing Chun students, but also are disrespecting the style's ancestors!

[Hardwork108]

So our forums heckler doesn't even do vt , perfect.
Don't kid yourself. Most people who post in the Wing Chun threads do not really practice Wing Chun!

The same is true for those who post in the other kung fu threads. Just face it, GENUINE kung fu kwoons are really hard to come by nowadays, hence the epidemic or cluelessness as regards any discussion regarding actual TCMA methodologies!

Keep an eye out for my own new and up and coming lineage of wing chun, that does not use hand,nor leg strikes. I have simplified wing chun to make it more "street effective". So, in sticking to this art's Central Line principles, we only use the only TRUE Central Line weapon on the human body - the head butt! Yes, ours is the real wing chun.

Because of its simplicity you can teach this system in a matter of weeks, hence more money making potetial, and less student drop out rates. All you would need to do is pay me - the Greatest Grand Master of All Great Grandmasters (including their own Grandmasters) my "reasonable" commission.

Would you like to join our organization?:D

[LoneTiger108]

People who are trimming this art in order to achieve some imagined level effectiveness or to standardize it for easier teaching purposes are not only doing dis-service to their Wing Chun students, but also are disrespecting the style's ancestors!

Y'know what's even more scary??

It is for exactly the reasons you mention that Ip Man himself was criticized and shunned by some of his own peers.

He wasn't the only person around that knew decent Wing Chun and maybe it was just his personality and character that enabled him to survive in HK teaching for a living. It is down to the next generations to see if what he accomplished has done us all any harm, but fwiw I think it was needed at the time.

Today, we need to be a little more open to understand exactly what went on, and we need the people that were there to be more honest for once.

[Hardwork108]

Maybe the reason he has never been dropped by an elbow could be have something to do with the way he is training.

Elbows finish fights. We train and defend them for our wing chun and mma. The elbow is one of wing chun's best weapons when used correctly. Ie body power not shoulder power.
Agreed on all counts!

[Hardwork108]

Again, there are some elbow strikes depending on position/situation, but we prefer to go back to punching distance given it is more advantageous as you are able to flank while attacking. It's about weighing risks and benefits in the strategies you use.

In our lineage, our strategy is NOT to go back unless in emergencies (getting hit). I don't see the wisdom of penetrating someone's defences, "running him over", but when in elbow distance, back-tracking to punching distance.

Also, I could be wrong, but I doubt that there are many kung fu styles out there that do not use elbow striking methodologies in their arsenal. So, why should'nt Wing Chun, a close range (emphasizing) fighting system?

[Alan Orr]

If you know that the elbow strikes work, then why doesn't your system train it as a part of its regular Wing Chun arsenal?

Why do people keep simplifying Wing Chun, further and further? How long before we have "lineages" that only teach people to chase each other in the kwoon, with chain punches?

IMHO, despite popular belief Wing Chun is not a "simple" art. It is a d@mn complicated one, but when mastered, then its simplicity comes out. So, people who further "simplify" the art by cutting bits and pieces out, are not keeping up with the art's essence. Instead they are going against this.

Wing Chun in its original form is a very rich art and covers all ranges of fighting and provides its practitioners with the necessary arsenal (hand, elbow, feet and knee strikes, as well as Chin.na techniques) to be used in these ranges, using its PRINCIPLES and CONCEPTS.

People who are trimming this art in order to achieve some imagined level effectiveness or to standardize it for easier teaching purposes are not only doing dis-service to their Wing Chun students, but also are disrespecting the style's ancestors!

Best post so far! Very nice.

I know many schools of wing chun that only chain punch and front kick lol You see it all the time. When I say we have 8 basic kicks to start with and many punching methods they say thats not wing chun lol crazy.

Wing Chun not just centre line and chain punch!

[Buddha_Fist]

In our lineage, our strategy is NOT to go back unless in emergencies (getting hit). I don't see the wisdom of penetrating someone's defences, "running him over", but when in elbow distance, back-tracking to punching distance.

There are different ways to transition from delivering an elbow to punching. Depends again on position and situation, there is no magic general formula. One way is to push somebody out of balance while simultaneously going over to punching without giving up space. Another way is to step back flanking with simulaneous punch and any other support action if necessary (Lin Siu Dai Da).

Sparring will put you continuously in zillion different situations based on mutual positioning, distance, timing, etc. The plan is to constantly adapt to this everchanging scenario by being flexible yet following strategies that maximize output (attack) and minimize risk. We adapt on the way of our attack, trying to avoid reactive situations where your reaction will always be a step behind the attack you are receiving (reaction lag is a *****...). Adaptation includes swift, flexible, and adaptive footwork in all directions. Just look at the pro's in any contact sport...


Also, I could be wrong, but I doubt that there are many kung fu styles out there that do not use elbow striking methodologies in their arsenal. So, why should'nt Wing Chun, a close range (emphasizing) fighting system?

Re-read Sean's and my previous posts.

[k gledhill]

If you know that the elbow strikes work, then why doesn't your system train it as a part of its regular Wing Chun arsenal?

Why do people keep simplifying Wing Chun, further and further? How long before we have "lineages" that only teach people to chase each other in the kwoon, with chain punches?

IMHO, despite popular belief Wing Chun is not a "simple" art. It is a d@mn complicated one, but when mastered, then its simplicity comes out. So, people who further "simplify" the art by cutting bits and pieces out, are not keeping up with the art's essence. Instead they are going against this.

Wing Chun in its original form is a very rich art and covers all ranges of fighting and provides its practitioners with the necessary arsenal (hand, elbow, feet and knee strikes, as well as Chin.na techniques) to be used in these ranges, using its PRINCIPLES and CONCEPTS.

People who are trimming this art in order to achieve some imagined level effectiveness or to standardize it for easier teaching purposes are not only doing dis-service to their Wing Chun students, but also are disrespecting the style's ancestors!

As Buddahfist and Sean mentioned as well, we are opportunistic fighters, IF the opportunity is there in the moment...like I posted, if its there, we just dont go looking for it as a primary weapon.

[Hardwork108]

As Buddahfist and Sean mentioned as well, we are opportunistic fighters, IF the opportunity is there in the moment...like I posted, if its there, we just dont go looking for it as a primary weapon.

To better utilize opportunities with a given technique, the elbow strike in this case, one needs to drill that given technique, until it becomes second nature, so that you will automatically use it as the opportunity arises. I thought that was basic knowledge.

By the way, all fighters should be "opportunistic". That is, you take opportunities as they arise, as well as creating them when possible. How else are you going to fight?

I can just see another new lineage of Wing Chun being born - "The Opportunistic Lineage", subheaded "We hit when there is an opportunity and we don't, when there isn't! Come and learn our street effective 'modern no-nonsense' system". LOL!

[Wu Wei Wu]

Martial artists who fail to use the elbow as weapons? Seriously?

Basics of Wing Chun are use EVERYTHING you can as weapons (anatomically and environmentally - kitchen sinks included!)

Suki

[Hardwork108]

There are different ways to transition from delivering an elbow to punching. Depends again on position and situation, there is no magic general formula. One way is to push somebody out of balance while simultaneously going over to punching without giving up space. Another way is to step back flanking with simulaneous punch and any other support action if necessary (Lin Siu Dai Da).

I was discussing the point you made that implied going back from elbow distance to punching distance, instead of simply opting for an elbow strike. Just want to say that if you do that against certain Wing Chun exponents, they will "listen", follow you and run you over. Other styles such as Chow Gar will also run you over and destroy.


Sparring will put you continuously in zillion different situations based on mutual positioning, distance, timing, etc. The plan is to constantly adapt to this everchanging scenario by being flexible yet following strategies that maximize output (attack) and minimize risk. We adapt on the way of our attack, trying to avoid reactive situations where your reaction will always be a step behind the attack you are receiving (reaction lag is a *****...). Adaptation includes swift, flexible, and adaptive footwork in all directions. Just look at the pro's in any contact sport...
A lot of that makes sense, but the going back bit I am not familiar with. I can see in a sporting context where the fight has sparring elements, but the last thing you want to do in the street is to turn the fight into a sparring match, when the guy may use the opportunity to pull out a weapon or even be joined by his friends.

I am not saying that going back is necessarily wrong (depending on what circumstances dictate), but just how I have been taught. Also, I do not see the logic of your statement that implied that moving out of elbow range and opting for a fist attack was preferable.

[Hardwork108]

Best post so far! Very nice.

I know many schools of wing chun that only chain punch and front kick lol You see it all the time. When I say we have 8 basic kicks to start with and many punching methods they say thats not wing chun lol crazy.

Wing Chun not just centre line and chain punch!

I know what you mean, Alan. I saw one school in London that used just the straight punch. I asked their sifu about the variety of punches they used and he just said that they used the basic straight punch. They had no conditioning training and no hard sparring.

They were nice guys and everything, but I did not see how they could use their stuff in a serious fight.

[Hardwork108]

Y'know what's even more scary??

It is for exactly the reasons you mention that Ip Man himself was criticized and shunned by some of his own peers.

He wasn't the only person around that knew decent Wing Chun and maybe it was just his personality and character that enabled him to survive in HK teaching for a living. It is down to the next generations to see if what he accomplished has done us all any harm, but fwiw I think it was needed at the time.

Today, we need to be a little more open to understand exactly what went on, and we need the people that were there to be more honest for once.

Agreed. I have always asked my sifu about the Ip Man wing chun. My sifu has always been respectful towards Ip Man, but he did tell me that Ip Man took a lot of fundamental stuff out. Stuff that we train in our Mainland Chinese Lineage. These include a great variety of hand (hand, fist, claw, palm, elbow) techniques; Chin-na; Kicking/Knee techniques, etc. The more advanced students take some of the style's techniques and principles to the ground, I guess, using a similar mindset and manner to sifu Mike Patterson's Hsing I training in Taiwan.

So, I see Wing Chun as a complete fighting system, and I believe that the same is true with other major older kung fu styles, while at the same time I observe people cutting bits and pieces out of it.

Many of these people are not qualified masters to start with, and if they were, then their motives, just like those of Ip Man, should still be questioned and as you implied, honestly answered.

[Grumblegeezer]

Agreed. I have always asked my sifu about the Ip Man wing chun. My sifu has always been respectful towards Ip Man, but he did tell me that Ip Man took a lot of fundamental stuff out. Stuff that we train in our Mainland Chinese Lineage. These include a great variety of hand (hand, fist, claw, palm, elbow) techniques; Chin-na; Kicking/Knee techniques, etc...

So, I see Wing Chun as a complete fighting system, and I believe that the same is true with other major older kung fu styles, while at the same time I observe people cutting bits and pieces out of it.


It's all a matter of perspective. According to legend, Wing Chun evolved from Shaolin. It's defining characteristic is its efficiency, by trimming out highly specialized, "low percentage" movements the system became more lean and streamlined. It does not surprize me that some older branches are less streamlined and retain more of the old, Shaolin qualities.

I prefer the lean, streamlined approach. Yet, there is a point when being too lean starts to become unhealthy, even anorexic. The branch of the Yip Man lineage I have trained is no where near that point. We use a range of kicks, punches, elbows, knees, grapples, sweeps and throws... but all are derived from the same simple principles. My old Sifu also insisted that it is "a complete system". However, realistically, I believe that it is more complete in some areas than others. And that's OK. I'd rather work within those limitations than study an art that tries to do everything and fails.

[Buddha_Fist]

To better utilize opportunities with a given technique, the elbow strike in this case, one needs to drill that given technique, until it becomes second nature, so that you will automatically use it as the opportunity arises. I thought that was basic knowledge.

By the way, all fighters should be "opportunistic". That is, you take opportunities as they arise, as well as creating them when possible. How else are you going to fight?

I can just see another new lineage of Wing Chun being born - "The Opportunistic Lineage", subheaded "We hit when there is an opportunity and we don't, when there isn't! Come and learn our street effective 'modern no-nonsense' system". LOL!

I don't think that anybody stated that there are no drills for use of elbow strikes. Ving Tsun uses the elbow strike where it is the idoneous tool. Drills help you recognize when and how.


I was discussing the point you made that implied going back from elbow distance to punching distance, instead of simply opting for an elbow strike. Just want to say that if you do that against certain Wing Chun exponents, they will "listen", follow you and run you over. Other styles such as Chow Gar will also run you over and destroy.

A lot of that makes sense, but the going back bit I am not familiar with. I can see in a sporting context where the fight has sparring elements, but the last thing you want to do in the street is to turn the fight into a sparring match, when the guy may use the opportunity to pull out a weapon or even be joined by his friends.

I am not saying that going back is necessarily wrong (depending on what circumstances dictate), but just how I have been taught. Also, I do not see the logic of your statement that implied that moving out of elbow range and opting for a fist attack was preferable. !

I understand you are currently in Colombia. When will you be back in the US for vacation? I can travel within the US and show you practically. We can discuss things for hours on the forum that can be practically demonstrated in a minute or two. No challenge implied, just trying to avoid going unnecessarily in circles - time is precious!

[Hardwork108]

I don't think that anybody stated that there are no drills for use of elbow strikes. Ving Tsun uses the elbow strike where it is the idoneous tool. Drills help you recognize when and how.
I believe that other PB students or lineage members said that they did not train elbow (nor the knee) strikes in their schools.

There is a thread on the subject matter of elbows and knees in this forum. Have a look and you will see. Even in this very thread, the use of elbows seems to have been dismissed by at least one PB clan member, Kgredhill.



I understand you are currently in Colombia. When will you be back in the US for vacation? I can travel within the US and show you practically. We can discuss things for hours on the forum that can be practically demonstrated in a minute or two. No challenge implied, just trying to avoid going unnecessarily in circles - time is precious!

It would really be nice to touch hands and learn about other WC approaches, but I am not originally from the US either and my next forseeable travel plans are to Rio de Janeiro, next year.

I can understand that your approach may work, specially now that at least in your training you say you train your elbows and I assume the knee strikes for combat. It is just that I could not get my head around the "making distance to use the fist" concept, when one is in elbow striking range, specially when you say that (unlike your PB brothers) you train your elbows.

Anyway, it may be a case of different strokes, but when it comes to not going back (as a strategy), I have seen this principle in my Southern Mantis training, as well as one other traditional kung fu school that trained a different style, during my time in London. So, it is not an uncommon idea in traditional kung fu circles.

[Hardwork108]

It's all a matter of perspective. According to legend, Wing Chun evolved from Shaolin. It's defining characteristic is its efficiency, by trimming out highly specialized, "low percentage" movements the system became more lean and streamlined. It does not surprize me that some older branches are less streamlined and retain more of the old, Shaolin qualities.

I prefer the lean, streamlined approach. Yet, there is a point when being too lean starts to become unhealthy, even anorexic. The branch of the Yip Man lineage I have trained is no where near that point. We use a range of kicks, punches, elbows, knees, grapples, sweeps and throws... but all are derived from the same simple principles. My old Sifu also insisted that it is "a complete system". However, realistically, I believe that it is more complete in some areas than others. And that's OK. I'd rather work within those limitations than study an art that tries to do everything and fails.

I believe that the emphasis on wing chun's efficiency, or it being more efficient than other kung fu styles is mostly a marketing ploy. I doubt that there is a single inefficient major kung fu style out there. There are only inefficient (or unqualified) instructors.

Also, saying that Wing Chun is a trimmed down and more efficient Shaolin fighting art, implies that it is superior to the other styles, and for most part WC, the way it is practiced by most, is not surperior to arts such as the Northern Mantis, Southern Mantis, Fujian White Crane, Hsing I, Paguazhang, Tai Chi, Five Ancestor Fist, Pak Mei, to name a few. Of course, the world being what it is, most people do not practice the latter styles properly either, hence people get away with their marketing slogans, without being challenged, etc.

Some of the arts mentioned above train their body unity on a deeper level than to that of most Wing Chun, hence they can generate incredible "soft" power, that will not be absorbed or redirectec by your everyday Wing Chuner. Some of these styles also train a type of shock power (based on their distinct body unity) that is a lot more penetrative and damaging than the usual Wing Chun short power.

Despite popular belief, there is a lot of TCMA methodogies out there that are not very well known, so one must be vary of marketing slogans.....;)

[Buddha_Fist]

I believe that other PB students or lineage members said that they did not train elbow (nor the knee) strikes in their schools.

There is a thread on the subject matter of elbows and knees in this forum. Have a look and you will see. Even in this very thread, the use of elbows seems to have been dismissed by at least one PB clan member, Kgredhill.

It would really be nice to touch hands and learn about other WC approaches, but I am not originally from the US either and my next forseeable travel plans are to Rio de Janeiro, next year.

I can understand that your approach may work, specially now that at least in your training you say you train your elbows and I assume the knee strikes for combat. It is just that I could not get my head around the "making distance to use the fist" concept, when one is in elbow striking range, specially when you say that (unlike your PB brothers) you train your elbows.

Anyway, it may be a case of different strokes, but when it comes to not going back (as a strategy), I have seen this principle in my Southern Mantis training, as well as one other traditional kung fu school that trained a different style, during my time in London. So, it is not an uncommon idea in traditional kung fu circles.

Kevin stressed that it's not the weapon of choice, which is true. Nonetheless there are drills. We went through several of them just in the most recent full week training camp with Philipp in Spain. No biggie.

He viajado con anterioridad varias veces a América Latina, por lo cual voy a procurar en el futuro hacer una pequeña escala en Colombia, en dónde tengo varios amigos. Va a ser más práctico que discutir en foros con pura teoría.

[Alan Orr]

I believe that the emphasis on wing chun's efficiency, or it being more efficient than other kung fu styles is mostly a marketing ploy. I doubt that there is a single inefficient major kung fu style out there. There are only inefficient (or unqualified) instructors.

Also, saying that Wing Chun is a trimmed down and more efficient Shaolin fighting art, implies that it is superior to the other styles, and for most part WC, the way it is practiced by most, is not surperior to arts such as the Northern Mantis, Southern Mantis, Fujian White Crane, Hsing I, Paguazhang, Tai Chi, Five Ancestor Fist, Pak Mei, to name a few. Of course, the world being what it is, most people do not practice the latter styles properly either, hence people get away with their marketing slogans, without being challenged, etc.

Some of the arts mentioned above train their body unity on a deeper level than to that of most Wing Chun, hence they can generate incredible "soft" power, that will not be absorbed or redirectec by your everyday Wing Chuner. Some of these styles also train a type of shock power (based on their distinct body unity) that is a lot more penetrative and damaging than the usual Wing Chun short power.

Despite popular belief, there is a lot of TCMA methodogies out there that are not very well known, so one must be vary of marketing slogans.....;)


I really like this post. Many people forget what Chinese Martial Arts has already.

The soft power is key to building a higher level. Some Wing Chun style's think soft means no focus on hard training or sparring. In fact soft skill is making the opponents pressure not effect your structure. You are still rooted and strong, your opponent feels they can not move you but also can not find your centre - that is the centre line I use lol

For me the Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun system has a good balance between using soft skills and hard skills, as really they are one. Its the skill of changing pressures at the right time that produce this type of feeling in movement. The hard is only the feeling the opponent has when you hit. This is when you release power, not before by being relaxed not tense. Which is often hard for guys that have never developed it too see in action. I only say this as many people I have met in Wing Chun lack this skill. Not all, but a lot. Most other Chinese Martial Arts have these skills some Wing Chun styles can often be lazy. So its good to test and exchange to make sure you are on the right path. It was many years of training before I started to find the answers and even then I tested them and still do.

[Jeung]

Don't kid yourself. Most people who post in the Wing Chun threads do not really practice Wing Chun!

The same is true for those who post in the other kung fu threads. Just face it, GENUINE kung fu kwoons are really hard to come by nowadays, hence the epidemic or cluelessness as regards any discussion regarding actual TCMA methodologies!

Keep an eye out for my own new and up and coming lineage of wing chun, that does not use hand,nor leg strikes. I have simplified wing chun to make it more "street effective". So, in sticking to this art's Central Line principles, we only use the only TRUE Central Line weapon on the human body - the head butt! Yes, ours is the real wing chun.

Because of its simplicity you can teach this system in a matter of weeks, hence more money making potetial, and less student drop out rates. All you would need to do is pay me - the Greatest Grand Master of All Great Grandmasters (including their own Grandmasters) my "reasonable" commission.

Would you like to join our organization?:D

Hardwork108, I agree with what you say. It's really upsetting to see people use Wing Chun as a selling tool. For example; I don't know if you've seen this video, ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk3WPHKAMyg ) where this 18 (open) Hands Lohan grandmaster has come out to apologize to the Wing Chun world, for his misleading and fabricated statements. I think the Wing Chun world needs to acknowledge his apology from the 18 Lohan community. His voice represents and admits (at Video time marker 9:18) that he was only thinking about helping his student to live, through teaching kung fu. His student asked him to support him because using the Wing Chun name is good marketing. His student tried with other names, but had no progress at all. At the time, the grandmaster was just thinking how he could help his student feed his family, without considering the effect and consequences of his statements. Now, he is sorry about making false statements and false interviews. Regardless of his mistakes, I think the man, GM Tio, has a lot of honor to come out and admit the truth. He shared his real intentions during the time he was coached to make the statements by his student. Unfortunately many people don't know the consequences of his participation in helping his student to form this fabricated Wing Chun. I don't think they are aware that his student is now charging uninformed people up to $128,000 to set them up with this fake Wing Chun system. GM Tio's heart seems to be genuine. I feel bad for him. He seems want to protect 18 Lohan and Wing Chun people from becoming victims of that student's marketing scheme. There is more information at this link, (vtmshaolinbull5hit.blogspot.com (http://vtmshaolinbull5hit.blogspot.com) ) for people who are unaware.

[LoneTiger108]

Agreed. I have always asked my sifu about the Ip Man wing chun. My sifu has always been respectful towards Ip Man, but he did tell me that Ip Man took a lot of fundamental stuff out. Stuff that we train in our Mainland Chinese Lineage. These include a great variety of hand (hand, fist, claw, palm, elbow) techniques; Chin-na; Kicking/Knee techniques, etc. The more advanced students take some of the style's techniques and principles to the ground, I guess, using a similar mindset and manner to sifu Mike Patterson's Hsing I training in Taiwan.

How about considering how I feel lol!!?? :confused:

My Sigung was the first European representative of Ip Man and yet he had much more to his learning and curriculums than he was asked/allowed to promote. So he taught only Ip Man Wing Chun until his sons took over after his death. Actually he even promoted Ip Chun here in the UK as they were very close (back then!)

I would consider the Wing Chun I know to be simply Wing Chun. I don't like labelling it mainland or HK or whatever, because back in my Sigungs day there was only Wing Chun, and that's the way I believe it should be. Even though I mention Lee Shing Family all the time, and have even adopted the term 'Lee Shing Wing Chun' I don't like using it because what I know isn't 'his' version (if anything it's his students interpretation!) There was never an 'individuals' version of Wing Chun before Ip Man as far as I know.

But even after promoting Ip Man in the beginning we are side lined now by the Ip family, and I have even heard from at least 3 reliable Sources that Ip Chun talks quite badly about Lee Shing these days! Perhaps his memory has been lost. Perhaps he still holds ill feeling because it was my Sigung who released the first ever 108 Wooden Man book lol! Either way, we too are on our own and this is because we have a wider, more traditional curriculum.

Makes no sense to me. :(

ACTUALLY, READING MY POST MAKES LITTLE SENSE TO ME EITHER CONSIDERING THE THREAD! SORRY FOR SWAYING INTO THIS SORT OF GRUMBLE LOL!

[Phil Redmond]

Did you and Kevin met?
Yes, we met yesterday (Sunday) at my class.

[NelisVingTsun]

Yes, we met yesterday (Sunday) at my class.



Did you guys exchange ideas and how was the meet up? :)

[k gledhill]

Yes, we met yesterday (Sunday) at my class.

Good to meet up at last! Very frendly group, met another sifu J Camma.

[guy b.]

I am going to insult everyone.

I have to say that the P. Bayer art looks like the higher level and more complete approach compared to CSL. In terms of principles and concepts it just appears more complete, interlocking, and solid. However this is compromised by the fact that they do not fight and so there is no way of knowing if it actually is. They are also afflicted by the need to criticise everything. This points to mental weakness, either in terms of the message being delivered or the students being attracted to the art. Nothing is the answer to everything in fighting. And yet PB guys seem to think they have it. Obviously there is a real and dangerous lack of actual fighting experience in this lineage.

My problem with Alan Orr's approach is that Alan doesn't appear to teach or fight anything remotely similar to what his best guys do in the ring. There is no doubting that his 2 or 3 best guys can punch very hard and that they are difficult to take down. But this isn't what Alan does himself. Where his fighters stand in good posture, move well, and punch crisply above their weight, Alan puts his head down in sparring, looks slow, uses bodyweight to push lighter guys around, does choppy and slappy chi sau, and just generally doesn't look like he's doing the same thing. I don't know why this is: perhaps he is a much better coach than a fighter? Perhaps the CSL system with its many different levels of achievement and ridiculous marketing is more a money making tool than any kind of wing chun innovation? Who knows.

Alan obviously has much more actual experience of what it takes to train guys to fight in the ring than the Bayer crew, but his system in a way presents a similar environment in that it has an untouchable cult figure (Alan), and various levels of disciple. Sadly this is a disease of most kung fu. People on pedistals and their disciples never respond very well to criticism as this thread shows.

[Grumblegeezer]

I am going to insult everyone...

Alan obviously has much more actual experience of what it takes to train guys to fight in the ring than the Bayer crew, but his system in a way presents a similar environment in that it has an untouchable cult figure (Alan), and various levels of disciple. Sadly this is a disease of most kung fu. People on pedistals and their disciples never respond very well to criticism as this thread shows.

More of an analytical opinion than an insult, I'd say. The "sifu on the pedestal" phenomenon isn't just a kung-fu problem. It's inherent in most traditional Asian martial arts. But if Alan is actually putting his guys out there and testing his stuff, I can't see how he's guilty of this.

[guy b.]

If you go to an Alan Orr class or watch the dvds and fight clips you will see 2 contradictory things:

1. Alan doesn't or cannot do what his young fit fighters can do. He simply doesn't fight in the same way. This is probably because he was already quite old when he discovered the CSL method and so well past his prime, if he was ever gifted in that area. This would not be a problem except that:

2. Alan is at the peak of an extended teaching structure with different belt levels and little bits of information being fed, mostly to the kind of physically ungifted individuals that make up the average martial arts class, in a drip drip fashion over a long period of time. Even though the guys that fight are clearly better at puching and kicking in a live environment than Alan is, he still needs to dominate them in some way in order to maintain the heirarchy necessary for the business model being used. This is done as described earlier in chi sau and other drills using body weight, tactics of questionable real-fight utility, and a slappy chi sau technique that appears irrelevant to the way they actually fight. The obvious unfamiliarity of the best guys with chi sau shows that they are not doing a lot of it in training.

I think that CSL probably has some great ideas about whole body power but the way it has been set up with a single UK rep is unfortunate. It isn't large enough to prevent kung fu-itis setting in. This could be prevented if Alan portrayed himself as a coach only and was strictly about results in the ring, but he also likes to be the sifu with the special knowledge like any kung fu guy.

The "you don't even understand how our kung fu works" crap that goes on whenever closed groups argue about approaches is very evident here from both sides. Bayer guys are all about the elbow nobody else seems to notice. Alan's guys are all about the whole body power everyone else is missing. It is sad that CSL didn't manage to rise above this given their ring combat orientation.

[Buddha_Fist]

I am going to insult everyone.

Go for it! :D


I have to say that the P. Bayer art looks like the higher level and more complete approach compared to CSL. In terms of principles and concepts it just appears more complete, interlocking, and solid. However this is compromised by the fact that they do not fight and so there is no way of knowing if it actually is.

Not a fact, your opinion. Philipp has had his fair share of action. Some of his students and students of theirs have started to venture into MMA fights, which evidenced that ground game is a prerequisite in that arena. Many have had non-publicized bouts and don't shy away from having an "open door" policy at their schools. Go and visit Philipp or a student and get first-hand practical experience before propagating an opinion as a fact. If you're in LA, let's meet.


They are also afflicted by the need to criticise everything. This points to mental weakness, either in terms of the message being delivered or the students being attracted to the art. Nothing is the answer to everything in fighting. And yet PB guys seem to think they have it. Obviously there is a real and dangerous lack of actual fighting experience in this lineage.

I know only a handful of students that write on forums. We're adults, each person is resposible of his/her own acts. Furthermore, each person writes based on his own background and experiences. You are extrapolating your perception of who this handful is on to the other 95% of trainers and students who don't spend time writing on forums. Regarding practical experience, see my input above.

:cool:

[Hardwork108]

If you go to an Alan Orr class or watch the dvds and fight clips you will see 2 contradictory things:

1. Alan doesn't or cannot do what his young fit fighters can do.

That may (or may not be) true in the ring scenario, but kung fu was never about ring fighting, it was and is about actual combat. Ring fighting can be a testing ground for some, not all TCMA combat aspects. Do you doubt that Alan Orr can fight for real?


He simply doesn't fight in the same way. This is probably because he was already quite old when he discovered the CSL method and so well past his prime,
For ring fighting you may need to be in "prime", but as a kung fu fighter, not really. The whole TCMA training aims to make you effective (and healthy) well into your old age.



if he was ever gifted in that area.

I am curious to know why you make such assumptions???:confused:



This would not be a problem except that:

I don't really think that there is a problem.


2. Alan is at the peak of an extended teaching structure with different belt levels and little bits of information being fed, mostly to the kind of physically ungifted individuals that make up the average martial arts class, in a drip drip fashion over a long period of time. Even though the guys that fight are clearly better at puching and kicking in a live environment than Alan is, he still needs to dominate them in some way in order to maintain the heirarchy necessary for the business model being used.

More assumptions.


This is done as described earlier in chi sau and other drills using body weight, tactics of questionable real-fight utility, and a slappy chi sau technique that appears irrelevant to the way they actually fight. The obvious unfamiliarity of the best guys with chi sau shows that they are not doing a lot of it in training.
Did you know that Alan also organizes or at least organized contact chi sao competitions?

Also, chi sao was never about real fighting, but it develops attributes and ultimately can turn into real fighting once the rules are loosend up, turning it into "free hands" fighting.


I think that CSL probably has some great ideas about whole body power but the way it has been set up with a single UK rep is unfortunate. It isn't large enough to prevent kung fu-itis setting in.
The concept of whole body unity is prevalent in all TCMAs, albeit in different ways.


This could be prevented if Alan portrayed himself as a coach only and was strictly about results in the ring, but he also likes to be the sifu with the special knowledge like any kung fu guy.
KUng fu training is not strictly for ring fighters, nor is ring fighting an ultimate goal of TCMA training.

Also, people who train basket ball players, baseball players and even boxers and wrestlers, can be referred to as "coaches". In my humble opion, kung fu teachers should always be referred to as sifus.


The "you don't even understand how our kung fu works" crap that goes on whenever closed groups argue about approaches is very evident here from both sides.
Most people, including those who train and even claim to teach kung fu, don't even understand their own very style, let alone someone elses. I have trained two kung fu styles and most people who claim to train kung fu do not understand the approachs taught to me, and I am no sifu, but an intermediate student in Wing Chun and even less so in Chow Gar.

So, as far as kung fu goes, the real McCoy is very difficult to come by out there. You are more likely to find a Wing Chun school without elbows, than real authentic school.:D



Bayer guys are all about the elbow nobody else seems to notice. Alan's guys are all about the whole body power everyone else is missing. It is sad that CSL didn't manage to rise above this given their ring combat orientation.

Without "whole body power", and or, whole body unity (and there are different types), one cannot have real kung fu. The best one can get is an empty shell kung fu, that does not deliver.

The other guy can use all the "theories" and "concepts" against you, but if you can explode onto and through him, then he will have as much chance of deflecting you power, as child would, using the same principles against a fully grown adult.

It seems that the PB guys focus on elbow alignments, but some how do not "linger" on the elbow (and knee) striking. There is only one PB guy here that says that he practices this, so one starts asking questions about those who don't drill these important weapons, that are present in probably all of the kung fu styles on the planet.

So yes, different lineages will have different ways, but when members of one lineage act like they have discovered the holy grail and enter a thread and criticize a sifu from another, and he defends himself, we should understand why. :)

[guy b.]

That may (or may not be) true in the ring scenario, but kung fu was never about ring fighting, it was and is about actual combat. Ring fighting can be a testing ground for some, not all TCMA combat aspects. Do you doubt that Alan Orr can fight for real?


For ring fighting you may need to be in "prime", but as a kung fu fighter, not really. The whole TCMA training aims to make you effective (and healthy) well into your old age.




I am curious to know why you make such assumptions???:confused:




I don't really think that there is a problem.



More assumptions.


Did you know that Alan also organizes or at least organized contact chi sao competitions?

Also, chi sao was never about real fighting, but it develops attributes and ultimately can turn into real fighting once the rules are loosend up, turning it into "free hands" fighting.


The concept of whole body unity is prevalent in all TCMAs, albeit in different ways.


KUng fu training is not strictly for ring fighters, nor is ring fighting an ultimate goal of TCMA training.

Also, people who train basket ball players, baseball players and even boxers and wrestlers, can be referred to as "coaches". In my humble opion, kung fu teachers should always be referred to as sifus.


Most people, including those who train and even claim to teach kung fu, don't even understand their own very style, let alone someone elses. I have trained two kung fu styles and most people who claim to train kung fu do not understand the approachs taught to me, and I am no sifu, but an intermediate student in Wing Chun and even less so in Chow Gar.

So, as far as kung fu goes, the real McCoy is very difficult to come by out there. You are more likely to find a Wing Chun school without elbows, than real authentic school.:D




Without "whole body power", and or, whole body unity (and there are different types), one cannot have real kung fu. The best one can get is an empty shell kung fu, that does not deliver.

The other guy can use all the "theories" and "concepts" against you, but if you can explode onto and through him, then he will have as much chance of deflecting you power, as child would, using the same principles against a fully grown adult.

It seems that the PB guys focus on elbow alignments, but some how do not "linger" on the elbow (and knee) striking. There is only one PB guy here that says that he practices this, so one starts asking questions about those who don't drill these important weapons, that are present in probably all of the kung fu styles on the planet.

So yes, different lineages will have different ways, but when members of one lineage act like they have discovered the holy grail and enter a thread and criticize a sifu from another, and he defends himself, we should understand why. :)

f you want me to reply please condense into a proper answer without reactive qoute sniping. Type a couple of coherent paragraphs.

[guy b.]

Go for it! :D



Not a fact, your opinion. Philipp has had his fair share of action. Some of his students and students of theirs have started to venture into MMA fights, which evidenced that ground game is a prerequisite in that arena. Many have had non-publicized bouts and don't shy away from having an "open door" policy at their schools. Go and visit Philipp or a student and get first-hand practical experience before propagating an opinion as a fact. If you're in LA, let's meet.



I know only a handful of students that write on forums. We're adults, each person is resposible of his/her own acts. Furthermore, each person writes based on his own background and experiences. You are extrapolating your perception of who this handful is on to the other 95% of trainers and students who don't spend time writing on forums. Regarding practical experience, see my input above.

:cool:


All martial artists have had their fair share of action, nudge wink. All tell fantastic stories about how great they are. The only way to be certain in an objective way is to see results from competitions or to visit the school. I have not visited Philip Bayer but I have visited WSL places. They have a certain flavour.

It is a fact that Bayer and WSL schools do not generally take part in sporting comps. I have seen a few low level attempts on youtube but it is safe to say that Alan Orr is way ahead in this respect based on the available evidence.

[anerlich]

LOL at you guys extrapolating fine details of Alan's and the Bayer crew's motivations out of your a$$es.

The "problems" IMO come down to this:

1. The usual compromises that come with marketing and commercialism, which everyone trying to make a buck out of something they love has to deal with - not that there's anything wrong with that

2. http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/05/19/fanboyism-and-brand-loyalty/

I've been around the block, and IMO you could do worse than to choose either, but I also believe I train with partners and under instructors who are at least as good and probably much better than either or both, and definitely more experienced both ring (fighting and coaching, standup, grappling or MMA) and street.

So, basically, get off the forum and stop boring me.

[GlennR]

Most people, including those who train and even claim to teach kung fu, don't even understand their own very style, let alone someone elses. I have trained two kung fu styles and most people who claim to train kung fu do not understand the approachs taught to me, and I am no sifu, but an intermediate student in Wing Chun and even less so in Chow Gar.

You do rattle on dont you


So, as far as kung fu goes, the real McCoy is very difficult to come by out there. You are more likely to find a Wing Chun school without elbows, than real authentic school

Hows does an intermediate student know what the 'real mccoy" is?



It seems that the PB guys focus on elbow alignments, but some how do not "linger" on the elbow (and knee) striking. There is only one PB guy here that says that he practices this, so one starts asking questions about those who don't drill these important weapons, that are present in probably all of the kung fu styles on the planet.

How do you know whats present in every KF system in the world??
If Kevin and friends choose NOT to use the elbow thats fine, theres big risks associated with that range that youll only realise by sparring at that range.
Tell me how your expertise in the art of using your elobows has developed?


So yes, different lineages will have different ways, but when members of one lineage act like they have discovered the holy grail and enter a thread and criticize a sifu from another, and he defends himself, we should understand why.

With the above paragraph in mind, i suggest you re-read everything you have written

[guy b.]

LOL at you guys extrapolating fine details of Alan's and the Bayer crew's motivations out of your a$$es.

The "problems" IMO come down to this:

1. The usual compromises that come with marketing and commercialism, which everyone trying to make a buck out of something they love has to deal with - not that there's anything wrong with that

2. http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/05/19/fanboyism-and-brand-loyalty/

I've been around the block, and IMO you could do worse than to choose either, but I also believe I train with partners and under instructors who are at least as good and probably much better than either or both, and definitely more experienced both ring (fighting and coaching, standup, grappling or MMA) and street.

So, basically, get off the forum and stop boring me.

Hang on, you just dismissed what I said, then paraphrased it. Are you ok?

[Phil Redmond]

At about 1:30 here; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QfXUeGuZsY
is what Kevin showed me about the use of their elbow. If I'm wrong Kevin please correct me. I must say that I also showed him why I wouldn't subscribe to that method.

[k gledhill]

At about 1:30 here; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QfXUeGuZsY
is what Kevin showed me about the use of their elbow. If I'm wrong Kevin please correct me. I must say that I also showed him why I wouldn't subscribe to that method.

The clip is not punching at 1:30 just implying the striking distance of Bil gee inside the arm...then a normal jum punch outside the arms, compared to man sao distances [aka pak sao angling offline] even greater distance...
The elbow I showed you was just in a development stage of jum sao alone Dan chi-sao level, not a fighting or moving idea.
If I can make Sunday again which I would like too, great atmosphere, I can elaborate.
I know you're teaching so its not easy to ignore your students for long.

I will try to show a clip of the process to fruition fighting, it just looks like punches, you cant see jum punch energy or tan punch energy...

[Buddha_Fist]

...I have not visited Philip Bayer...

Visit him or his students before proclaiming opinions about him as facts. That's what I would do, but then again that's me...

[nunchuckguy]

For any category of knowledge, you will always find people who are more conservative and those who are more liberal in their interpretations.

Alan Orr is obviously a sifu in the liberal camp. I agree with him to take Wing Chun to real combat without limiting oneself to the orthodox Sao's of Wing Chun. The most powerful thing of Wing Chun is its philosophy. But having said that, after looking at his sparring clips on youtube, I would love to see him applying more Wing Chun principles in his fighting. And one of the way to increase the percentage of Wing Chun is to use the Sao's, because the principles are manifested through them.

I believe you can actually use the Wing Chun moves without being limited by them.

And one thing I want to point out is, when you see a punch coming, if you duck you head and grab your head with both hands trying to take that blow, the moment you do that, it is not Wing Chun anymore.

Nunchuck Guy (http://nunchuckguy.com)

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . .
And one thing I want to point out is, when you see a punch coming, if you duck you head and grab your head with both hands trying to take that blow, the moment you do that, it is not Wing Chun anymore.

Nunchuck Guy (http://nunchuckguy.com)
It's obvious that you never learned the "WC" way of defending your head when on the ground. This was something I learned in WC years ago from Sifu Duncan Leung. I have a problem with people saying what WC doesn't have based on their personal experiences or those of their Sifus.

[Phil Redmond]

James Cama showed up to our Sunday class also.

[k gledhill]

James Cama showed up to our Sunday class also.

Good pic !

[Phil Redmond]

Good pic !
It is, but why do you always look mean in your pics? :D

[k gledhill]

It is, but why do you always look mean in your pics? :D

I smiled a fraction AFTER that moment.....:D

[GlennR]

I smiled a fraction AFTER that moment.....:D

Some come on you two.... how was your day/meeting/death match?? ;)

[anerlich]

Hang on, you just dismissed what I said, then paraphrased it. Are you ok?

I only dismissed it, and I'm fine.

Sounds like you need a hobby or a pet or girlfriend or something.

[k gledhill]

Some come on you two.... how was your day/meeting/death match?? ;)

Good to see first hand and talk rather than typing things, I will try to go visit more often, great atmosphere in the local NYC Chinatown park Phil teaches in. There are other martial arts going on too so good place to just hang out :D

[Phil Redmond]

Some come on you two.... how was your day/meeting/death match?? ;)
I had a new student there and had to concentrate on him. Mostly Kevin and James Cama watched my class. Every now and them I'd go over and talk with them. Kevin did show me how is uses the elbow. But I already commented on that. There was no death match . . .. What would be good is the next time he comes there I'll have a senior guy work with new students and he and I can work some WC.

[GlennR]

Good to see first hand and talk rather than typing things, I will try to go visit more often, great atmosphere in the local NYC Chinatown park Phil teaches in. There are other martial arts going on too so good place to just hang out :D

Cool... great to hear

[Phil Redmond]

Cool... great to hear
See, I told you most people you meet online are ok when you meet in person.....:p :)

[GlennR]

See, I told you most people you meet online are ok when you meet in person.....:p :)

You havent met me yet ;)

[Alan Orr]

I had a new student there and had to concentrate on him. Mostly Kevin and James Cama watched my class. Every now and them I'd go over and talk with them. Kevin did show me how is uses the elbow. But I already commented on that. There was no death match . . .. What would be good is the next time he comes there I'll have a senior guy work with new students and he and can work some WC.

Nice to hear

[Alan Orr]

I am going to insult everyone.

I have to say that the P. Bayer art looks like the higher level and more complete approach compared to CSL. In terms of principles and concepts it just appears more complete, interlocking, and solid. However this is compromised by the fact that they do not fight and so there is no way of knowing if it actually is. They are also afflicted by the need to criticise everything. This points to mental weakness, either in terms of the message being delivered or the students being attracted to the art. Nothing is the answer to everything in fighting. And yet PB guys seem to think they have it. Obviously there is a real and dangerous lack of actual fighting experience in this lineage.

My problem with Alan Orr's approach is that Alan doesn't appear to teach or fight anything remotely similar to what his best guys do in the ring. There is no doubting that his 2 or 3 best guys can punch very hard and that they are difficult to take down. But this isn't what Alan does himself. Where his fighters stand in good posture, move well, and punch crisply above their weight, Alan puts his head down in sparring, looks slow, uses bodyweight to push lighter guys around, does choppy and slappy chi sau, and just generally doesn't look like he's doing the same thing. I don't know why this is: perhaps he is a much better coach than a fighter? Perhaps the CSL system with its many different levels of achievement and ridiculous marketing is more a money making tool than any kind of wing chun innovation? Who knows.

Alan obviously has much more actual experience of what it takes to train guys to fight in the ring than the Bayer crew, but his system in a way presents a similar environment in that it has an untouchable cult figure (Alan), and various levels of disciple. Sadly this is a disease of most kung fu. People on pedistals and their disciples never respond very well to criticism as this thread shows.

So many haters lol Its so funny people who know nothing about me have so much bs to say.

Marketing money making tool? I dont even teach many students. Martial arts is not my full time job. I work in my clinic. I only teach as my group love the system so much and also as I learn a lot from teaching sure good guys.

Most the guys I teach have lots of free time from me, so making money is not what I am all about. My pro fighters train for free anyway.

My students never really post on forums, as they are too busy in the real world.

Cult figure haha that is funny. Disciples??? I have a close group of good friends that I teach.

I said 100 times now -- we train wing chun and apply it, its not going to look like what you do as we don't do the style you do. Our system is a different view to others.

The clip you are talking about is a light spar after 5 months off with an injury. I not punching hard or fast for a reason. If I do you will see something very different. I was just getting warmed up and moving. We like to train in lots of different ways. It I go hard my guys can not work with me. No one learns that way.

You think you know so much about me. very funny post.

[k gledhill]

You havent met me yet ;)

lmao !!!!!

[Alan Orr]

If you go to an Alan Orr class or watch the dvds and fight clips you will see 2 contradictory things:

1. Alan doesn't or cannot do what his young fit fighters can do. He simply doesn't fight in the same way. This is probably because he was already quite old when he discovered the CSL method and so well past his prime, if he was ever gifted in that area. This would not be a problem except that:

2. Alan is at the peak of an extended teaching structure with different belt levels and little bits of information being fed, mostly to the kind of physically ungifted individuals that make up the average martial arts class, in a drip drip fashion over a long period of time. Even though the guys that fight are clearly better at puching and kicking in a live environment than Alan is, he still needs to dominate them in some way in order to maintain the heirarchy necessary for the business model being used. This is done as described earlier in chi sau and other drills using body weight, tactics of questionable real-fight utility, and a slappy chi sau technique that appears irrelevant to the way they actually fight. The obvious unfamiliarity of the best guys with chi sau shows that they are not doing a lot of it in training.

I think that CSL probably has some great ideas about whole body power but the way it has been set up with a single UK rep is unfortunate. It isn't large enough to prevent kung fu-itis setting in. This could be prevented if Alan portrayed himself as a coach only and was strictly about results in the ring, but he also likes to be the sifu with the special knowledge like any kung fu guy.

The "you don't even understand how our kung fu works" crap that goes on whenever closed groups argue about approaches is very evident here from both sides. Bayer guys are all about the elbow nobody else seems to notice. Alan's guys are all about the whole body power everyone else is missing. It is sad that CSL didn't manage to rise above this given their ring combat orientation.


More BS

1. Of course my guys are young fighters. You have seen a few limited clips lol. I can hold my own just find thanks. I would be the first to say I am old in fighting terms. In training I am of a higher skill than my guys thats why they come to learn from me. I have no ego about the fact that in a comp my guys may have the upper hand at time, of course. Does this mean I can't fight? lol

2 more hate and jealousy lol I have lots of guys at different levels and with different goals. Not all want to fight. Wing Chun for the street and for the ring have different training needs. I don't hold my guys back at all. This whole business model bs is a joke. The guys that teach are doing what they like doing with my support not control. You don't have a f--ing clue.

I never said our wing chun was better that other styles. I have said we have a different system and different way of looking at wing chun. Of course I have seen many styles of wing chun that just don't work, but I have also seen styles of wing chun that work but are different to what I do and what I think is the best path. I don't need to hate these other styles in fact some of my good friends do other styles of good wing chun.

I don't put myself out there as a sifu and master etc. I just train my guys and share my stuff. My guys respect me why would they be training with me otherwise?

Again your ' I think' BS is a waste of time. You 'think' you know so much. I spend more money and time on my own training that any one I know. I am only a teacher to my own students, who I also learn a lot from. I am learning sambo from my of my good friends who is a wing chun teacher in a different style! I am learning CST training from one of my students. I learn BJJ from one of my students.
I am training weekly with my BJJ teachers and training and teaching more Pro fights than people know on forums or see on clips.

You post is a very limited idea of me.

[Alan Orr]

That may (or may not be) true in the ring scenario, but kung fu was never about ring fighting, it was and is about actual combat. Ring fighting can be a testing ground for some, not all TCMA combat aspects. Do you doubt that Alan Orr can fight for real?


For ring fighting you may need to be in "prime", but as a kung fu fighter, not really. The whole TCMA training aims to make you effective (and healthy) well into your old age.




I am curious to know why you make such assumptions???:confused:




I don't really think that there is a problem.



More assumptions.


Did you know that Alan also organizes or at least organized contact chi sao competitions?

Also, chi sao was never about real fighting, but it develops attributes and ultimately can turn into real fighting once the rules are loosend up, turning it into "free hands" fighting.


The concept of whole body unity is prevalent in all TCMAs, albeit in different ways.


KUng fu training is not strictly for ring fighters, nor is ring fighting an ultimate goal of TCMA training.

Also, people who train basket ball players, baseball players and even boxers and wrestlers, can be referred to as "coaches". In my humble opion, kung fu teachers should always be referred to as sifus.


Most people, including those who train and even claim to teach kung fu, don't even understand their own very style, let alone someone elses. I have trained two kung fu styles and most people who claim to train kung fu do not understand the approachs taught to me, and I am no sifu, but an intermediate student in Wing Chun and even less so in Chow Gar.

So, as far as kung fu goes, the real McCoy is very difficult to come by out there. You are more likely to find a Wing Chun school without elbows, than real authentic school.:D




Without "whole body power", and or, whole body unity (and there are different types), one cannot have real kung fu. The best one can get is an empty shell kung fu, that does not deliver.

The other guy can use all the "theories" and "concepts" against you, but if you can explode onto and through him, then he will have as much chance of deflecting you power, as child would, using the same principles against a fully grown adult.

It seems that the PB guys focus on elbow alignments, but some how do not "linger" on the elbow (and knee) striking. There is only one PB guy here that says that he practices this, so one starts asking questions about those who don't drill these important weapons, that are present in probably all of the kung fu styles on the planet.

So yes, different lineages will have different ways, but when members of one lineage act like they have discovered the holy grail and enter a thread and criticize a sifu from another, and he defends himself, we should understand why. :)


Thank you your have a better way of putting things than me! lol

[Hardwork108]

Thank you your have a better way of putting things than me! lol

Just telling it the way it is, Alan. :)

It seems that there are too many "empty shell" egos in this forum who do not follow that very basic TCMA concept of respecting sifus, even if the sifus in question are from different lineages to them. In short, many such people act like knuckleheads, but object to being described as such.

I am sure that you are taking a lot these "criticisms" with a pinch of salt. ;)

[Alan Orr]

Just telling it the way it is, Alan. :)

It seems that there are too many "empty shell" egos in this forum who do not follow that very basic TCMA concept of respecting sifus, even if the sifus in question are from different lineages to them. In short, many such people act like knuckleheads, but object to being described as such.

I am sure that you are taking a lot these "criticisms" with a pinch of salt. ;)

Thank bro

Yes it is funny to me that the some guys need to rant about me. I can only laugh and get on with training. My guys think the whole thing is very funny. My next clips are really going to get them going if they are upset with these first ones!

These clips where not meant to be demos of our super arranged skills. They are just day to day training.

Life is too short to have so much hate. My guys and I just have fun and train hard. We love our system and respect our teachers and friends. Simple life

Just finished a photo shoot and interview with Randy Couture so seeing posts like guy b after - well what can I say... means nothing lol

[Phil Redmond]

Thank bro

Yes it is funny to me that the some guys need to rant about me. I can only laugh and get on with training. My guys think the whole thing is very funny. My next clips are really going to get them going if they are upset with these first ones!

These clips where not meant to be demos of our super arranged skills. They are just day to day training.

Life is too short to have so much hate. My guys and I just have fun and train hard. We love our system and respect our teachers and friends. Simple life

Just finished a photo shoot and interview with Randy Couture so seeing posts like guy b after - well what can I say... means nothing lol
Yeah, haters suck the big one. I do MAs because I love them. I don't knock anyone who is trying to make their art work for real. I see good things in WC lineages outside of my own. But then again, I'm an adult . . . ;)

[Wayfaring]

I said 100 times now -- we train wing chun and apply it, its not going to look like what you do as we don't do the style you do. Our system is a different view to others.

The clip you are talking about is a light spar after 5 months off with an injury. I not punching hard or fast for a reason. If I do you will see some very different. I was just getting warmed up and moving. We like to train in lots of different ways. It I go hard my guys can not work with me. No one learns that way.


yah no worries. it's good to post up training vids of the day-to-day even if the haters will do what they do. to me keeping it real like that is better than all the one-punch variations out on the web.

to me the toughest guys I know are always learning and always rolling and sparring. got to roll with junior asuncao last weekend. was a privilege - you note the talent in all areas.

i'm sure i'd have great fun training with you guys if i was in the neighborhood like a lot of the guys on the forum. if i'm in nyc i'll cruise out to chinatown too.

but anyways i'll leave the hayeating to the hayeaters.

[Hardwork108]

f you want me to reply please condense into a proper answer without reactive qoute sniping. Type a couple of coherent paragraphs.

Actually, I was attempting to deal with your erroneous logic point by point and I believe that I did so, coherently! ;)

[Hardwork108]

You do rattle on dont you
Facts are facts, but I guess some of the more insecure members of this forum will see facts as "rattling on"......




Hows does an intermediate student know what the 'real mccoy" is?
He knows, because he was lucky enough to train with two authentic kung fu sifus. You will know what I mean, when or IF you find such a sifu.



How do you know whats present in every KF system in the world??
I don't, however I can make an educated guess and add the word "PROBABLY" to it.



If Kevin and friends choose NOT to use the elbow thats fine,
Of course, it is "fine", but what is not "fine" is them training Wing Chun in an incomplete manner, while at the same time looking down on other sifus and WC lineages, including some that are more complete than they are.

The same would be true if some Muay Thai school took out the elbows and Knees out of its striking curriculum, and then started looking down on other Thai Boxing schools that were practicing the art in a more complete manner than they were.

Do you comprehend the point I am attempting to make?


theres big risks associated with that range
There are risks associated in all ranges of fighting. Let me tell you the risk of not knowing elbow striking, when you are in elbow striking range, and while you are trying to make space for punches, the other guys smashs your head with an elbow strike.

Seriously, you should go to Thailand and tell the Thai Boxers about the "risks" of using the elbow and recommend them that they will only see your wisdom if they spar....LOL!


that youll only realise by sparring at that range.
Wow, who would have thought sparring was a part of MA training?:rolleyes:


Tell me how your expertise in the art of using your elobows has developed?
Enough to know that I don't want to be elbowed on face or temple....LOL!

.


With the above paragraph in mind, i suggest you re-read everything you have written
I will, as soon as I stop laughing at your TCMA "literature"......

People should expect "enquiries" when they make statements to the effect that their close range TCMA style, has somehow lost the elbow and knee strikes!

Sometimes one gets upset at some of the stuff one reads from so called TCMA practitioners!

[Sean66]

@Hardwork108

I don't think anyone (certainly not myself) stated that elbows (or knees or head butting, for that matter) have been taken out of the wing chun curriculum by Bayer and his students.

What was said is that elbows are not the weapon of preference. We don't try to make an elbow strike happen if we're not in the correct range and the if the situation doesn't call for it. It's safer to stay in a striking and controlling distance just outside of the grappling range.

There are, of course, many situations where elbow striking or controlling (like laan sau) is a great weapon/tool. No one is denying this.

Even WSL reportedly used a knee strike to finish one of his fights. Much to the surprise of some of his contemporaries, who complained that this was not "Wing Chun". WSL replied that his knee was the closest weapon to the desired target. Direct, simple and efficient.

[Hardwork108]

@Hardwork108

I don't think anyone (certainly not myself) stated that elbows (or knees or head butting, for that matter) have been taken out of the wing chun curriculum by Bayer and his students.

Here, if you don't believe me, then read this thread whose heading asks about the use of elbows and knees in Wing Chun. I actually thought that it was a rather silly question, but as it turned out, it was very revealing:

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62254&highlight=elbow+knees+wing+chun


What was said is that elbows are not the weapon of preference. We don't try to make an elbow strike happen if we're not in the correct range and the if the situation doesn't call for it.
That logic holds true for any strike. You take your opportunities as they come.


It's safer to stay in a striking and controlling distance just outside of the grappling range.
Agreed, but one is not always in control of the range and there are opponents out there who could not grapple, even if their lives depended on it.


There are, of course, many situations where elbow striking or controlling (like laan sau) is a great weapon/tool. No one is denying this.

Even WSL reportedly used a knee strike to finish one of his fights. Much to the surprise of some of his contemporaries, who complained that this was not "Wing Chun". WSL replied that his knee was the closest weapon to the desired target. Direct, simple and efficient.
If you read the link that I provided, you will see why I have drawn the conclusion that I have drawn as regards the use, or the lack of the elbow (knee), in PB WC, and you will also see that I based my conclusions on what PB WC practitioners have stated, and not on some personal malice. :)

EDIT: Here is a telling comment from that very thread:
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1140653&postcount=17

[Sean66]

ok, I see why you've drawn the conclusions that you have.


That logic holds true for any strike. You take your opportunities as they come.

Exactly. That's it. You don't try to make it happen if it doesn't fit the situation. And, I think that everyone can agree with this with regards to elbow striking specifically.

What do you say, Kevin?

[Hardwork108]

ok, I see why you've drawn the conclusions that you have.



Exactly. That's it. You don't try to make it happen if it doesn't fit the situation. And, I think that everyone can agree with this with regards to elbow striking specifically.

What do you say, Kevin?

In my humble opinion, Wing Chun practitioners have to train all of the style's arsenal so as to be able to use them when the opportunies arise. I don't think that certain people saying that one does not train elbow (and knee) strikes, but will use them when the opportunity arises holds much weight for those who have more than a basic knowledge of MA training.

Anyway, I am glad that you train those striking faculties. :)

[k gledhill]

ok, I see why you've drawn the conclusions that you have.



Exactly. That's it. You don't try to make it happen if it doesn't fit the situation. And, I think that everyone can agree with this with regards to elbow striking specifically.

What do you say, Kevin?

I am implying the same as Sean....if its there, and before anyone gets panties knotted, I HAVE ko'd a guy with a lan sao/forearm smash straight into his face stepping in as he stepped to me wide open... my call in the moment.
But elbows involve loss of mobility and commitment in stand-up, with turning and losing facing. If I fight a guy who uses this VT tactic against me as I overturn, I can easily be trapped....
Lan sao can be a rib strike, but its used more commonly as a 'barrier' using the whole forearm from elbow. Again its not strictly an elbow 'strike' but in the right moment...
We use bil gee elbows to recover from grabbed wrists, anti chi na, we can also use it as a strike but its purpose is for recovery back to slt/ck fighting.
Adapting I can make a reverse spinning elbow out of drawing my fist back as basic training. I can jump up and drop an elbow on your head,clavicle, face, back ......no limits, just guidelines.

[Hardwork108]

How about considering how I feel lol!!?? :confused:

My Sigung was the first European representative of Ip Man and yet he had much more to his learning and curriculums than he was asked/allowed to promote. So he taught only Ip Man Wing Chun until his sons took over after his death. Actually he even promoted Ip Chun here in the UK as they were very close (back then!)

That is a pity, because if more people had been exposed to his curriculum, perhaps there would be more people who would accept the different aspects and methodologies within the WC concepts and principles.


I would consider the Wing Chun I know to be simply Wing Chun. I don't like labelling it mainland or HK or whatever, because back in my Sigungs day there was only Wing Chun, and that's the way I believe it should be.
Your take makes sense and it would make even more sense in a perfect world. However, sometimes one has to differentiate what one does from the more mainstream trimmed down version(s) of Wing Chun, IMHO.


Even though I mention Lee Shing Family all the time, and have even adopted the term 'Lee Shing Wing Chun' I don't like using it because what I know isn't 'his' version (if anything it's his students interpretation!) There was never an 'individuals' version of Wing Chun before Ip Man as far as I know.
I am just guessing that there may be some individual versions in places like Malaysia and Singapore. I think that it is good that you mention Lee Shing Family in your description of your WC methodology as it will give a good idea of what you practice.


But even after promoting Ip Man in the beginning we are side lined now by the Ip family, and I have even heard from at least 3 reliable Sources that Ip Chun talks quite badly about Lee Shing these days! Perhaps his memory has been lost. Perhaps he still holds ill feeling because it was my Sigung who released the first ever 108 Wooden Man book lol! Either way, we too are on our own and this is because we have a wider, more traditional curriculum.
That last part may be a potent reason for Ip Chun's attitude towards you. Historically, trimmed disciplines see their more complete versions as a threat.


Makes no sense to me. :(
It makes no sense to me either. We should all be learning from each other in an attempt to enrich our kung fu and the tendency as always should be to learn from lineages that are more complete than ours, or at least practice aspects and approaches that we don't.


ACTUALLY, READING MY POST MAKES LITTLE SENSE TO ME EITHER CONSIDERING THE THREAD! SORRY FOR SWAYING INTO THIS SORT OF GRUMBLE LOL!
Hey, it makes plenty of sense to me. We have a thread that a well known and respected sifu is being criticized, by people, because his approach is different from theirs. Your lineage also is different from the mainstream and you have gotten the same treatment from other WC practitioners.

The same holds true for me. In the past, mentioning "softness" has been interpreted by our forum's Wing Chun practitioners as "weakness" or being a "stick man". The "Internal" approach, has been interpreted as "magic and mumbo jumbo". The word "chin-na" has been as nothing more than basic stand up grappling, where in fact it is a very rich approach, which can be applied on the ground as well. "Body Unity" has been seen as just putting your weight behind your punch, the same with "Internal Body Unity". All of this assumptions have come no less from people claiming 'decades' of experience or even calling themselves 'sifus', if we are lucky, or "coaches", if we are not.

So yes Spencer, I know where you are coming from.:)

[LoneTiger108]

That is a pity, because if more people had been exposed to his curriculum, perhaps there would be more people who would accept the different aspects and methodologies within the WC concepts and principles.

It actually irritates me to tell you that his ONLY generations of students DID attempt to share this information and curriculum way back in the late eighties/early nineties!!! But as always, they were shot down by the loyalists and mainstream Sifus at the time for 'inventing' stuff and basically trying to 'sell Wing Chun' that was not 'real'. :rolleyes:

Notably, nowadays Sifu Austin Goh is still teaching openly too and is still criticized heavily, and Sifu Joe Lee only teaches privately as he has always done.

Even when I was 'introduced' by my own Sifu in 1997 it was claimed that we were just a bunch of 'performers' who couldn't fight, and at that time there were very few people who had even heard of the Red Boats and our Operatic Ancestors! My Sifu was also a unknown entity, although he has been actively teaching on Lee Shings behalf since 1978!!

So it can't be said that we haven't tried lol!!


So yes Spencer, I know where you are coming from.:)

Y'know, somehow I knew you would ;)

[GlennR]

Facts are facts, but I guess some of the more insecure members of this forum will see facts as "rattling on"......

No they arent facts, theyre your opinon which, from what i can see, comes from a lot of pseudo intellectual waffle



He knows, because he was lucky enough to train with two authentic kung fu sifus. You will know what I mean, when or IF you find such a sifu.


Yawn.
Your standard reply for anyone that challeges you.... really is that it??


I don't, however I can make an educated guess and add the word "PROBABLY" to it.

You said probably?




Of course, it is "fine", but what is not "fine" is them training Wing Chun in an incomplete manner, while at the same time looking down on other sifus and WC lineages, including some that are more complete than they are.

Yep that what they want to do is up to them, and i agree that they appear to "look down their nose" at other lineages.... as you do whe anyone disagrees with you. Lines such as "incomplete", "real sifu" etc. Youre as guilty as they are at being derogatory and youre hypocritical to boot.


The same would be true if some Muay Thai school took out the elbows and Knees out of its striking curriculum, and then started looking down on other Thai Boxing schools that were practicing the art in a more complete manner than they were.

Do you comprehend the point I am attempting to make?


Muay Thai is a lot easier to pigeon hole than WC (incidentally i do MT 4 times a week)... Its been practised for a long time now and has evolved from other arts into its curent format. This format was developed and, i would think, formalised due to the fact its been used in a sporting manner.

MT as we know it is a sport , you fight within the confines of the rules, and elbows fit accordingly

WC is a bit different to that. Its (IMO) a pure self defense system and i see Kev's POV when he said they arent big on elbows... theirs risks involved, so full power to them if its not their thing. It doesnt make it incomplete any less than not having a roundhouse kick for example. Its just doesnt fit into what they are trying to do



There are risks associated in all ranges of fighting. Let me tell you the risk of not knowing elbow striking, when you are in elbow striking range, and while you are trying to make space for punches, the other guys smashs your head with an elbow strike.

Boxers dont use elbows?? Are you telling me they cant fight in close?

And i assume by the above statement you do a lot of hard sparring with elbows?


Seriously, you should go to Thailand and tell the Thai Boxers about the "risks" of using the elbow and recommend them that they will only see your wisdom if they spar....LOL!


Seriously, i MT in Sydney Australia... maybe you should come get some wisdom of us .... LOL!


Wow, who would have thought sparring was a part of MA training?:rolleyes:


So you spar a lot then?


Enough to know that I don't want to be elbowed on face or temple....LOL!

.
Thats not an answer


I will, as soon as I stop laughing at your TCMA "literature"......

People should expect "enquiries" when they make statements to the effect that their close range TCMA style, has somehow lost the elbow and knee strikes!

Its all your opinion my old rattling mate


Sometimes one gets upset at some of the stuff one reads from so called TCMA practitioners

And sometimes one gets upset at some of the stuff one reads from so called fighters

[Hardwork108]

No they arent facts, theyre your opinon which, from what i can see, comes from a lot of pseudo intellectual waffle

They are "opinions" for you, because you have no point of reference. You are just one more pseudo kung fu-ist in a world full of Mcdojos and pseudo kung fu-ists....



Yawn.
Your standard reply for anyone that challeges you.... really is that it??

Yep, the truth is sometimes that simple!;)



You said probably?
"Probably" is best used when "probably" is applicable!





Yep that what they want to do is up to them, and i agree that they appear to "look down their nose" at other lineages.... as you do whe anyone disagrees with you.
Not really. However, if they disagree with me, because they practice a one dimensional empty shell version of a given TCMA style, then I will tell them the way it is.


Lines such as "incomplete", "real sifu" etc. Youre as guilty as they are at being derogatory and youre hypocritical to boot.
Not really!

If people come here claiming TCMA experience, expertise and enough knowledge to criticize sifus from other styles or lineages, then they should d@mn well have studied COMPLETE systems under REAL sifus, otherwise their comments become, well, they become like yours.....LOL!




Muay Thai is a lot easier to pigeon hole than WC (incidentally i do MT 4 times a week)...
Well, why doesn't that surprise me! LOL!

Let me guess, you practice Muay Thai because someone took out the elbows and the knees from your Wing Chun lineage....LOL!


Its been practised for a long time now and has evolved from other arts into its curent format.

Some people say that the base arts of MT were TCMAs.....


This format was developed and, i would think, formalised due to the fact its been used in a sporting manner.

MT as we know it is a sport , you fight within the confines of the rules, and elbows fit accordingly
Interesting, but would you fight in a MT ring with someone who has extensively trained his elbows and knees, while you haven't, hypothetically speaking?


WC is a bit different to that. Its (IMO) a pure self defense system and i see Kev's POV when he said they arent big on elbows... theirs risks involved, so full power to them if its not their thing.

Hey they can take punching out of WC if they want, but they have to accept that what they do is incomplete.

Also and again, there are "risks" involved in all techniques. There are some TKD fighers who prefer to use their legs, because getting close to punching range is seen as risky, in the way they fight. That is why a lot TKD fights are circus acts!



It doesnt make it incomplete any less than not having a roundhouse kick for example.

Are you saying that there is no round house kick or round kick in Wing Chun?


Its just doesnt fit into what they are trying to do
I am afraid that after a certain point, it is not about what they are trying to do, but about the style they claim to practice.

You cannot have style such as Wing Chun that emphasises close range combat and then suddenly decide to take the elbows and knees out of it. There is just so much you can take out of the style and its essence, until it becomes SOMETHING ELSE!



Boxers dont use elbows?? Are you telling me they cant fight in close?
We are not talking about boxing here. Of course, you can put a boxer in a ring against an equivalent boxer who has also trained his elbows, then see what happens!


And i assume by the above statement you do a lot of hard sparring with elbows?
I have sparred hard. It is really amusing to see people who have done nothing in their so called TCMA or more accurately pseudo kung fu training, who have gone to MT and other modern contact supports, assuming that they are the only ones who do sparring, and that all TCMA out there are like the Mc dojos they themselves train in....LOL!




Seriously, i MT in Sydney Australia... maybe you should come get some wisdom of us .... LOL!
I am not posting in kung fu forum to get wisdom from MT practitioners. Perhaps you should be posting in MT forums, as you seem to have at least a little bit of knowledge regarding this art.



So you spar a lot then?
You know very well that it is only the MT, BJJ and MMA people who spar on this planet, and probably in the rest of the galaxy, and no one else!.:rolleyes:


.

Thats not an answer
Yes, I have sparred when elbows were used, as well as knees, kicks, claws, palms, hair grabs......have you?




Its all your opinion my old rattling mate
Again, they are opinions to you because you have no point of reference as regards authentic TCMA practice, like most people who post here, you base of knowledge is the stuff you cross train in to fill in the gaps of the incomplete stuff you have been taught in your pseudo kung fu classes.

Your cross training is different to those who cross train to enhance their already potent knowledge of the TCMAs by studying different approaches - whereby they will have more than a few options in a given situation.

Most of You guys crosstrain because, you would not be able to fight out of a wet paper bag using purely your empty shell, kung fu that some "coach" took you for a ride with!



And sometimes one gets upset at some of the stuff one reads from so called fighters
They wouldn't, if they had a comprehensive understanding of what actual TCMA studies entail, which is another way of saying that you, like most people who post here, do not have a point of genuine TCMA reference - again, this is generally referred to as the Mcdojo phenomenon, which unfortunately effects the overall majority of the TCMAs taught out there, except of course for this forum, where everyone and their grandmothers acts like kung fu expert, basing this more on their MMA, MT, BJJ training, then on any actual TCMA experience and understanding!

[GlennR]

They are "opinions" for you, because you have no point of reference. You are just one more pseudo kung fu-ist in a world full of Mcdojos and pseudo kung fu-ists....

So when Kevin criticises its rude and dispectful, yet its ok for you??
Youre quick with the insults arent you.... feel empowered do we?



"Probably" is best used when "probably" is applicable!


Youve been to the Hendrik school of how not to answer a question?



Not really. However, if they disagree with me, because they practice a one dimensional empty shell version of a given TCMA style, then I will tell them the way it is.

You tell em Mr Intermediate!



If people come here claiming TCMA experience, expertise and enough knowledge to criticize sifus from other styles or lineages, then they should d@mn well have studied COMPLETE systems under REAL sifus, otherwise their comments become, well, they become like yours.....LOL!


Become like mine? Like practical and from an experience based point of view?



Let me guess, you practice Muay Thai because someone took out the elbows and the knees from your Wing Chun lineage....LOL!


I practice it because i like it. Oh, and as you actually have to spar and challenge yourself, the clowns like you generally leave after their 1st lesson.
And i get to fight... you know fight??



Some people say that the base arts of MT were TCMAs.....

Hahahaha... did you hear that from a true authentic TCMA Sifu!! Then it must be right



Interesting, but would you fight in a MT ring with someone who has extensively trained his elbows and knees, while you haven't, hypothetically speaking?

No problem, the Gracies as an example seemed to do ok.



Also and again, there are "risks" involved in all techniques. There are some TKD fighers who prefer to use their legs, because getting close to punching range is seen as risky, in the way they fight. That is why a lot TKD fights are circus acts!


Exactly, so whats your point ihn criticising Kevins approach?


Are you saying that there is no round house kick or round kick in Wing Chun?

No, there are no round house kicks in WC... define what YOU mean by a round kick and ill answer the other



You cannot have style such as Wing Chun that emphasises close range combat and then suddenly decide to take the elbows and knees out of it.

Says who? Tep those wrestlers have it all wrong dont they


There is just so much you can take out of the style and its essence, until it becomes SOMETHING ELSE!


Once again, that YOUR opinion


We are not talking about boxing here.

Youre telling me that you MUST use elbows at close range to fight effectively, boxers dont. So just discount it just because it doesnt suit your argument


Of course, you can put a boxer in a ring against an equivalent boxer who has also trained his elbows, then see what happens!


So he who knows the most techniques wins????



I have sparred hard. It is really amusing to see people who have done nothing in their so called TCMA or more accurately pseudo kung fu training, who have gone to MT and other modern contact supports, assuming that they are the only ones who do sparring, and that all TCMA out there are like the Mc dojos they themselves train in....LOL!

No, you havent sparred hard. Dont argue the point, its just obvious you havent. Your posts read like a bad chinese MA comic with no substance, just a constant rehash of the same monotonous stuff

By all means have your opinion about what YOU as an individual sees as essential to YOUR ongoing path in WC ,or whatever it is you do, but your constant, whiney criticism of anyone you see as "non-TCMA" is pathetic at best.


I am not posting in kung fu forum to get wisdom from MT practitioners. Perhaps you should be posting in MT forums, as you seem to have at least a little bit of knowledge regarding this art.

Youre not looking for wisdom from anybody. Youre here to beat your own drum.
If you were genuine youd be asking questions, not hurling insults



You know very well that it is only the MT, BJJ and MMA people who spar on this planet, and probably in the rest of the galaxy, and no one else!.:rolleyes:


.

Yes, I have sparred when elbows were used, as well as knees, kicks, claws, palms, hair grabs......have you?




Again, they are opinions to you because you have no point of reference as regards authentic TCMA practice, like most people who post here, you base of knowledge is the stuff you cross train in to fill in the gaps of the incomplete stuff you have been taught in your pseudo kung fu classes.

Your cross training is different to those who cross train to enhance their already potent knowledge of the TCMAs by studying different approaches - whereby they will have more than a few options in a given situation.

Most of You guys crosstrain because, you would not be able to fight out of a wet paper bag using purely your empty shell, kung fu that some "coach" took you for a ride with!



They wouldn't, if they had a comprehensive understanding of what actual TCMA studies entail, which is another way of saying that you, like most people who post here, do not have a point of genuine TCMA reference - again, this is generally referred to as the Mcdojo phenomenon, which unfortunately effects the overall majority of the TCMAs taught out there, except of course for this forum, where everyone and their grandmothers acts like kung fu expert, basing this more on their MMA, MT, BJJ training, then on any actual TCMA experience and understanding![/QUOTE]

[guy b.]

So many haters lol Its so funny people who know nothing about me have so much bs to say.

You think you know so much about me. very funny post.

I don't hate you Alan and I don't think I know everything about you. I am merely commenting on what you show in your clips, what you say on forums, and what I have heard and experienced of your teaching methods and school. It is perfectly legitimate for me to do this on a forum where your clips have been posted and where you are commenting. I don't think there is any secret unfathomable element to fighting that can only be felt and not seen. I think that looking at clips is a great way of judging general approach and skill in any martial art. I have nothing against you and nothing for the Philip Bayer approach to wing chun. I am merely saying what I see.

I would be interested to see more clips and happy to comment again. You are free to disregard my comments if you like.

[Alan Orr]

I don't hate you Alan and I don't think I know everything about you. I am merely commenting on what you show in your clips, what you say on forums, and what I have heard and experienced of your teaching methods and school. It is perfectly legitimate for me to do this on a forum where your clips have been posted and where you are commenting. I don't think there is any secret unfathomable element to fighting that can only be felt and not seen. I think that looking at clips is a great way of judging general approach and skill in any martial art. I have nothing against you and nothing for the Philip Bayer approach to wing chun. I am merely saying what I see.

I would be interested to see more clips and happy to comment again. You are free to disregard my comments if you like.


The problem with making comments on just clips and what you think I am doing is its all on the assumption that you know what you are talking about.

I rather listen to feedback for the fighters that I meet and train with as they are the opinions that I value.

All you have shown is that you have very limited mind in the martial arts.

When did you visit my school and what is your background?

[Phil Redmond]

The problem with making comments on just clips and what you think I am doing is its all on the assumption that you know what you are talking about.

I rather listen to feedback for the fighters that I meet and train with as they are the opinions that I value.

All you have shown is that you have very limited mind in the martial arts.

When did you visit my school and what is your background?
Alan, you're welcome to join this group to discuss WC fighting:
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/wckcg/

[Alan Orr]

Alan, you're welcome to join this group to discuss WC fighting:
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/wckcg/


Thanks Phil. Have just signed up.

best Alan

[JPinAZ]

The problem with making comments on just clips and what you think I am doing is its all on the assumption that you know what you are talking about.

I rather listen to feedback for the fighters that I meet and train with as they are the opinions that I value.

All you have shown is that you have very limited mind in the martial arts.

When did you visit my school and what is your background?

Just curious, why do you post clips and sell DVD's at all, if no one can see or really know what it is you are doing in them? Or, in your words, could possibly have 'limited mind in the martial arts' (as do a lot of beginners btw, who might be looking to your videos for tips/info/training/etc). The exception it seems is for those that give you positive comments - it seems by your responces only those people can 'see' what you are really doing.

Not giving you sh!t, it is an honest question.

[Alan Orr]

Just curious, why do you post clips and sell DVD's at all, if no one can see or really know what it is you are doing in them? Or, in your words, could possibly have 'limited mind in the martial arts' (as do a lot of beginners btw, who might be looking to your videos for tips/info/training/etc). The exception it seems is for those that give you positive comments - it seems by your responces only those people can 'see' what you are really doing.

Not giving you sh!t, it is an honest question.

Sure this is a very good question.

I post the videos as I have a lot of people emailing me and asking to see more of what we do.

Also I think its good too have different views on Wing Chun shown. We have some good Wing Chun people around the world, but if you look on you tube you will also find a lot more bad ones. My system is a tested system and we have a lot of experience so its good for Wing Chun in general for people to seeing Wing Chun that is working in MMA as that is an area that many people look at now days as a test of any art. Now I not saying I agree that's the only test of any art but its one of them.

The dvd's do explain what we do and people can have a chance to see a different point of view of Wing Chun in my system. Its not a right or wrong thing at all. All I am saying is if you really don't have good first hand understanding then its a but pointless to have such strong opinions on forums.

I never post negative views on what I think people are about or what they should be doing or what I think they are doing etc So I am always surprised by comments that are personal about me when they nothing about me. It always turns out that I met the guy and didn't like or agree with what they where doing - so they then have a secret hate for me Ego is a funny thing. The people with the egos are always the one pointing the finger and trying to attack what they don't understand.

I have seen a lot of Wing Chun and known a lot of different styles and methods. So I have a first hand informed view. Even then I only give my view on what I would do. I don't have much to say about stuff I don't use or don't think works. I just say why I do it the way I do.


It may seem like I only give positive comments to those who can see what I am doing, but that's not completely true. Yes, I can tell by what some people say that they have the same direction in thinking that I have. Others may be way out but are friendly and open minded, so I am happy to chat and learn from each other.

Anyway, thanks. I'm always happy to answer questions. Its much better to be asked rather that have to listen to someone's rant on what they think I am thinking or doing lol

best Alan

[imperialtaichi]

Alan, you're welcome to join this group to discuss WC fighting:
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/wckcg/

Hey Phil, mind if I join in?

[Phil Redmond]

Thanks Phil. Have just signed up.

best Alan
I just saw. We have lots in common. Practical use of WC against someone trying to really kick your butt . . lol. We can share fighting theories, techs, training methods, etc. without the haters who don't pressure test their WC. The reason I have people submit a clip of them doing WC is simple. It's easy to talk trash about something or someone without showing what you personally can do. :D
I don't mind sharing things with a fighter that I might not desire to show to everyone.
Welcome aboard.

[Hardwork108]

So when Kevin criticises its rude and dispectful, yet its ok for you??
Youre quick with the insults arent you.... feel empowered do we?
IMHO, there is a difference between Kevin and Alan.

Secondly, I was initially just curious about a Wing Chun system that did not practice/drill elbow and knee strikes. However, in the light of the PB practioners' pompous attitude towards other lineages and practitioners, during a long time, then what I have said is not that "rude"!



Youve been to the Hendrik school of how not to answer a question?

IMHO, you should get a few decades of authentic kung fu experience, before you even think about mentioning Hendrik's name. ;)



You tell em Mr Intermediate!
IMHO, it is better to be intermediate within a genuine TCMA training methodology than a "sifu" in an "empty shell" school of "kung fu".



Become like mine? Like practical and from an experience based point of view?
The problem with your "experience" and therefore "references" is that they are not really related to genuine TCMA practice, but rather MT, etc.



I practice it because i like it. Oh, and as you actually have to spar and challenge yourself,

Is that another way of saying that your "kung fu" experience is limited to Mcdojo's that never did fighting training, therefore proving my point that you do not have any genuine TCMA references to even post in this forum?


the clowns like you generally leave after their 1st lesson.

And there is me thinking that clowns were people who posted in TCMA forums, without ever having practiced genuine TCMAs......:rolleyes:



And i get to fight... you know fight??

The question is wether you use elbow and knee strikes when you "fight", or are you practicing a "progressive" style of MT that has taken the knees and elbows out, because of the "risk"? LOL!





Hahahaha... did you hear that from a true authentic TCMA Sifu!! Then it must be right
Finally, you are getting it!;)




No problem, the Gracies as an example seemed to do ok.
LOL! BJJ does not have elbow and knee strikes in its original form, Wing Chun does. This is not rocket science but simple logic! LOL


Exactly, so whats your point ihn criticising Kevins approach?
The same as a MT practitioners would be if he read about practitioners who had taken the elbows and knees out of Thai Boxing, because of the "risk". Practioners, who then spend their time in MT forums criticizing the more complete MT methodologies of the more authentic and complete practitioners.



No, there are no round house kicks in WC... define what YOU mean by a round kick and ill answer the other[
By some accounts they are the same thing. So, tell me why there are no round house kicks in Wing Chun!





Says who? Tep those wrestlers have it all wrong dont they
Wing Chun is a close range emphasising striking art also, wrestling isn't a STRIKING art, it is a grappling one!

Are you being silly on purpose?:confused: How old are you?


Once again, that YOUR opinion

That is a FACT! There are just so many ingredients you can take out of style of Kung fu, before it turns into something else. Again, what I said is an obvious fact, but for you it makes no sense, because you really are not a TCMA practitioner - read pure MMA. There is nothing wrong with that either, to each his own, the only problem is that you are posting in TCMA forums in a "lost in the wood" manner......




Youre telling me that you MUST use elbows at close range to fight effectively, boxers dont. So just discount it just because it doesnt suit your argument
NO, I am telling you that you must, as a WING CHUN practitioner, be ABLE to use your elbows (and knees) effecitively, that means gaining skills in those specific strikes, as in the rest of this art's arsenal.

HOW old are you?


So he who knows the most techniques wins????
Given that the skill level is the same, then it is likely that the one with the bigger variety of arsenal will win. Again, what do you think if two boxers of similar skill levels were to face each other, but one of them had drilled his elbow strikes extensively? Simple question?



No, you havent sparred hard. Dont argue the point, its just obvious you havent.
And you say that because in your Mcdojo kung fu training you were taken for ride, because you learned no useful skills and nor did you sparr hard....LOL!


Your posts read like a bad chinese MA comic with no substance, just a constant rehash of the same monotonous stuff
Genuine TCMA discussions will always sound strange for those whose only base of reference is their non-TCMA MMA experience. No worries......


By all means have your opinion about what YOU as an individual sees as essential to YOUR ongoing path in WC ,or whatever it is you do, but your constant, whiney criticism of anyone you see as "non-TCMA" is pathetic at best.
Are you implying that you are a genuine TCMA practioners?:eek:

Now I have seen everything! LOL!



Youre not looking for wisdom from anybody. Youre here to beat your own drum.
If you were genuine youd be asking questions, not hurling insults
You really don't expect me to ask you TCMA questions, do you? LOL!
Oh wait a minute, there is that question again, why aren't any round house kicks in Wing Chun?

[GlennR]

]IMHO, there is a difference between Kevin and Alan.

Secondly, I was initially just curious about a Wing Chun system that did not practice/drill elbow and knee strikes. However, in the light of the PB practioners' pompous attitude towards other lineages and practitioners, during a long time, then what I have said is not that "rude"!

No you werent just curious, youve been slagging them of since he said it and even use it as areference in other posts (see below)


IMHO, you should get a few decades of authentic kung fu experience, before you even think about mentioning Hendrik's name. ;)

Yep, ill remember that when i need advice in waffling on



IMHO, it is better to be intermediate within a genuine TCMA training methodology than a "sifu" in an "empty shell" school of "kung fu".


IMHO you " " too much


The problem with your "experience" and therefore "references" is that they are not really related to genuine TCMA practice, but rather MT, etc.

Ahh, so fighting is different in the TCMA world?? Magic and stuff hey??



Is that another way of saying that your "kung fu" experience is limited to Mcdojo's that never did fighting training, therefore proving my point that you do not have any genuine TCMA references to even post in this forum?

See this is the thing, you never ask anyone their experience. You hop on the coat tails of anyone who has the same thinking as you, but when they dont agree you you put them in the "mcdojo" pile.... you know nothing of experience, lineage etc.

If they disagree... you slander


And there is me thinking that clowns were people who posted in TCMA forums, without ever having practiced genuine TCMAs......:rolleyes:

Once again... you dont ask as it may challenge your line of arguing



The question is wether you use elbow and knee strikes when you "fight", or are you practicing a "progressive" style of MT that has taken the knees and elbows out, because of the "risk"? LOL!


And theres the veiled reference to Kev... again




LOL! BJJ does not have elbow and knee strikes in its original form, Wing Chun does. This is not rocket science but simple logic! LOL


Once again... how do you know?


The same as a MT practitioners would be if he read about practitioners who had taken the elbows and knees out of Thai Boxing, because of the "risk". Practioners, who then spend their time in MT forums criticizing the more complete MT methodologies of the more authentic and complete practitioners.

As i said previously, MT is well documented for over a 100 years.... WC isnt as it harder to trace.... whos to say what the original was... you?


By some accounts they are the same thing. So, tell me why there are no round house kicks in Wing Chun!

No they arent the same thing


Wing Chun is a close range emphasising striking art also, wrestling isn't a STRIKING art, it is a grappling one!

Boxing doesnt elbow.... its not effective in close??




That is a FACT! There are just so many ingredients you can take out of style of Kung fu, before it turns into something else. Again, what I said is an obvious fact, but for you it makes no sense, because you really are not a TCMA practitioner - read pure MMA. There is nothing wrong with that either, to each his own, the only problem is that you are posting in TCMA forums in a "lost in the wood" manner......

No probs... prove it then


NO, I am telling you that you must your all of your Wing Chun arsenal, if you claim to be parcticing WING CHUN!

So if a boxer doesnt use an overhead right, he's not a boxer??
Where do you draw the line?


Given that the skill level is the same, then it is likely that the one with the bigger variety of arsenal will win. Again, what do you think if two boxers of similar skill levels were to face each other, but one of them had drilled his elbow strikes extensively? Simple question?


Your argument has been proven wrong time and time again in MMA/UFC... more techniques doesnt mean more effective



Genuine TCMA discussions will always sound strange for those whose only base of reference is their non-TCMA MMA experience. No worries......

Oh please.... stop waffling


Are you implying that you are a genuine TCMA practioners?:eek:

Now I have seen everything! LOL!

You've seen nothing outside your cosy little kwoon, and never will.

[wingchunIan]

GlennR / hardwork108,
Not sure that you wouldn't be better having this ****ing contest through private mail but to add a little fuel to the fire,
1) MT didn't originate from TCMA it originated from Muay Boran and Krabbi Krabbong, two indiginous arts of the region that share common roots with Burmese boxing and other styles of the area.
2) Boxing does have elbows its just that the rules don't allow them anymore. Go to any old school boxing gym and they will teach their fighters to throw hooks and crosses in close that miss and accidentally make contact with the elbow and forearm.
3) the reason that MT and other such arts don't have *****ing about whtehr certain techniques should be included or not is because if one group changes something and believe that its better / an evolution it will be tested and either proven or disproven by the success of their fighters against other fighters of the same style very very quickly.

Just feeling mischevious :p

[GlennR]

GlennR / hardwork108,
Not sure that you wouldn't be better having this ****ing contest through private mail but to add a little fuel to the fire,1)

Youre probably right Ian, but i was bored at work and arguing with him amuses me ;) BVut i take your pioint and (try to) stop


MT didn't originate from TCMA it originated from Muay Boran and Krabbi Krabbong, two indiginous arts of the region that share common roots with Burmese boxing and other styles of the area.

Exactly, thinking it originated from TCMA is just ignorant and arrogant.


2) Boxing does have elbows its just that the rules don't allow them anymore. Go to any old school boxing gym and they will teach their fighters to throw hooks and crosses in close that miss and accidentally make contact with the elbow and forearm.

True, but the point i was making is that it doesnt have to use elbows to be effective


3) the reason that MT and other such arts don't have *****ing about whtehr certain techniques should be included or not is because if one group changes something and believe that its better / an evolution it will be tested and either proven or disproven by the success of their fighters against other fighters of the same style very very quickly.

EXACTLY, and thats the point i was trying to (poorly) make. Over a long time and probably miliions of fights they have worked out was does and doesnt work within the rule set. And its regarded as the best sriking art to now take into MMA.
It shows that pressure testing works.
Alans guys are headiong down that path now and they are working out their own way.... very cool.


Just feeling mischevious :p

Good fun iisnt it ;)

[Hardwork108]

GlennR / hardwork108,
Not sure that you wouldn't be better having this ****ing contest through private mail but to add a little fuel to the fire,
1) MT didn't originate from TCMA it originated from Muay Boran and Krabbi Krabbong, two indiginous arts of the region that share common roots with Burmese boxing and other styles of the area.
There seems to be school of thought around that believes that Muay Boran and Krabbi Krabbong, have Chinese origins, or at least TCMA influences.

Personally speaking, I don't know. My previous statement to Glenn was in reference to the other school of thought.



2) Boxing does have elbows its just that the rules don't allow them anymore. Go to any old school boxing gym and they will teach their fighters to throw hooks and crosses in close that miss and accidentally make contact with the elbow and forearm.
Glenn's example was as regards modern boxing and his example was based precisely on the fact that modern boxing did not use elbows (and knees).



Just feeling mischevious :p
So is Glenn, but he is losing badly, as he does not have a leg to stand on. You just can't keep trimming an already trimmed art, before you end up being left with an empty shell that you may or may not be able to use effectively, because whatever the case, your core art will sooner or later stop being what it was before!

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2f-MZ2HRHQ&feature=related

[Hardwork108]

Look you are going around in circles while tryint to settle some previous emotional issues with me. Sufficet to say that you are combining a striking art (MT) to your Wing Chun, which is itself mainly a striking art, and your constant reference to the MT fighting, combat training, shows that your TCMA one, was wanting.

That makes you unqualified to discuss and argue TCMA issues above a certain level. Anyway, you seem to be trolling most of the time......


No you werent just curious, youve been slagging them of since he said it and even use it as areference in other posts (see below)



Yep, ill remember that when i need advice in waffling on
It is not waffling, Hendrik is a TCMA practitioner and researcher, you are just a MMA practitioner, and again, nothing wrong with that, except that you should not be involving yourself in TCMA discussions that are above your head.




IMHO you " " too much
I can live with that, as long as you keep your "humble opinions" as regards the TCMAs to yourself, or at least when you have gained a working knowledge of what kung fu study involves.


Ahh, so fighting is different in the TCMA world? Magic and stuff hey??
Styles are different from one another, that is a fact. Fighting is the end result, but different arts will emphasis different methodologies and approaches, as well as WEAPONS. Knees and Elbows are among Wing Chun's weapons. You can jump up and down, cry and throw a tantrum, but that is a fact.

Generally speaking, those who practice the simpler external systems, do not have a comprehensive understanding of the Internals and their higher level aspects such as "softness", as a result, their neanderthal minds see these different scientific approaches as "magic and stuff"......




See this is the thing, you never ask anyone their experience. You hop on the coat tails of anyone who has the same thinking as you, but when they dont agree you you put them in the "mcdojo" pile.... you know nothing of experience, lineage etc.
Again if I read posts from people who look down on other lineages of Wing Chun, and then they turn around and say that they do not practice elbow/knee strikes in their close range emphasizing arts, then I know enough not to give two bits about their experience.

The same would be true if MTs practitioner who looked down on other MT schools, had told me that they had taken out their knee and elbow strikes, or if similar Tae Kwon Do practitioners had taken their kicking out of their (generally long range) fighting, because they were "too risky" and besides "boxers do without them". LOL!


If they disagree... you slander
You are the one who is slandering me. I only take issue based on what they say, which usually shows that they have wasted years on empty shell kung fu training (taken for a ride) and were trying hard to fill in the gaps (that don't exist in the original versions of their core TCMA styles) by training other styles.




Once again... you dont ask as it may challenge your line of arguing
What they practice and what they don't practice, is usually written all over their posts and their opinions.

Don't kid yourself, this forum is mainly a MMA one, with some kung fu tags thrown in for good measure. One of the few who post here that have a strong Wing Chun core is Alan Orr, and I object to seeing him criticized by people who are not qualified to criticize him.

Try to understand that statement!



Once again... how do you know?
I lived in Rio de Janeiro for 5 years and I used to practice kung fu while my sifu taught in an academy owned by BJJ people, who by the way, were more humble and respectful to the TCMAs then most of the kung fu clueless BJJ blue belts in this forum.




As i said previously, MT is well documented for over a 100 years.... WC isnt as it harder to trace.... whos to say what the original was... you?
LOL! YOu asking that question really shows how clueless you are as regards the TCMAs!




No they arent the same thing
Some people interchange the descriptions for these type of kicks, that is why I used both terms. The idea is the same - circular kicks.

So, tell me, why do you say that Wing Chun does not have these kicks?




Boxing doesnt elbow.... its not effective in close??
Boxing is effective without kicks too. So, should we get rid of kicks (and knees) from Wing Chun?


No probs... prove it then
I would, except for the fact that your out of place and irrelevant examples are proving how lost in the woods you are, for me.

Thank you for that....;)




So if a boxer doesnt use an overhead right, he's not a boxer??
Of course he is still a boxer, perhaps a slightly more limited one, but he is still a boxer, because he is still using his fists. Take away his fists, then he will stop being a boxer. You take a way WC's elbows and knees, then you will have a more limited style, you keep taking away things, then you will eventually end up with something that cannot be classified as Wing Chun anymore.

It is a simple point, but it seems that some people find it hard to understand.


Where do you draw the line?
My question, exactly!!!



Your argument has been proven wrong time and time again in MMA/UFC... more techniques doesnt mean more effective
You still don't get this. However, when one looks at the UFCs one sees that some of the best fighters are those who have a rich arsenal, and I don't know any UFC fighter who trains an elbowless and kneeless, MT methodology.



Oh please.... stop waffling
Whoops, so sorry to confuse you, I keep forgetting that you are not an actual TCMA practitioner....



You've seen nothing outside your cosy little kwoon, and never will.
Ironically that qualifies me infinitely more than you to post in a TCMA forum, so perhaps you should run along to the MMA section of this site and talk about your MT fighting medals? LOL!

[Hardwork108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2f-MZ2HRHQ&feature=related

That is so true. I just do not have enough Muay Thai knowledge to communicate with Glenn, and he does not have enough TCMA knowledge to communicate with me....:D

[GlennR]

Look you are going around in circles while tryint to settle some previous emotional issues with me.

Nah, im just having fun with you........ and my only emotion here is a bit of laughter


Sufficet to say that you are combining a striking art (MT) to your Wing Chun, which is itself mainly a striking art, and your constant reference to the MT fighting, combat training, shows that your TCMA one, was wanting.

Funny enough, when i started MT the folks there said i could actually fight with that WC stuff. If you think that is wanting thats your call.


That makes you unqualified to discuss and argue TCMA issues above a certain level. Anyway, you seem to be trolling most of the time......

Yeh i troll you, sue me.


Styles are different from one another, that is a fact. Fighting is the end result, but different arts will emphasis different methodologies and approaches, as well as WEAPONS. Knees and Elbows are among Wing Chun's weapons. You can jump up and down, cry and throw a tantrum, but that is a fact.

I never said they werent part of WC, check what ive said, ive just defended Kev's choice not to use elbows unless pushed


Generally speaking, those who practice the simpler external systems, do not have a comprehensive understanding of the Internals and their higher level aspects such as "softness", as a result, their neanderthal minds see these different scientific approaches as "magic and stuff"......

Simpler, higher, neanderthal.... you really are a condascending little thing arent you.


Again if I read posts from people who look down on other lineages of Wing Chun, and then they turn around and say that they do not practice elbow/knee strikes in their close range emphasizing arts, then I know enough not to give two bits about their experience.

So you know it all do you??.... Wow!



You are the one who is slandering me. I only take issue based on what they say, which usually shows that they have wasted years on empty shell kung fu training (taken for a ride) and were trying hard to fill in the gaps (that don't exist) by training other styles.

Youre probably right.... but you do ask fo it



Don't kid yourself, this forum is mainly a MMA one, with some kung fu tags thrown in for good measure. One of the few who post here that have a strong Wing Chun core is Alan Orr, and I object to seeing him criticized by people who are not qualified to criticize him.

And if you look at my earlier i actually ackowledge his stucture in that clip. I even refgerence a post of mine from years ago saying the same thing.
Also im seeing Alan and his guys also doing a lot of boxing strikes as well... so by defintion he is no longer doing WC??


I lived in Rio de Janeiro for 5 years and I used to practice kung fu while my sifu taught in an academy owned by BJJ people, who by the way, were more humble and respectful to the TCMAs then most of the kung fu clueless BJJ blue belts in this forum.

Shame you didnt learn some humility of them while you were there




Some people interchange the descriptions for these type of kicks, that is why I used both terms. The idea is the same - circular kicks.

So, tell me, why do you say that Wing Chun does not have these kicks?

I never said there wasnt circular kicks, i said there wasnt the classical round house kick. Dont try to be clever



Ironically that qualifies me infinitely more than you to post in a TCMA forum, so perhaps you should run along to the MMA section of this site and talk about your MT fighting medals? LOL

Well ill leave it at that, i think we are really boring everyone here, ciao for now waffler ;)

[Hardwork108]

Nah, im just having fun with you........ and my only emotion here is a bit of laughter
You are trolling a whole thread for some "laughter"? Didn't spending years training in a Mcdojo provided you (if not them), with enough laughter?



Funny enough, when i started MT the folks there said i could actually fight with that WC stuff. If you think that is wanting thats your call.
Yet you felt the need to train MT. That says that you, yourself may have found your core "wing chun" training wanting....


Yeh i troll you, sue me.
Now that you have admitted to it, you should perhaps search for a psychological solution for your needless trolling?



I never said they werent part of WC, check what ive said, ive just defended Kev's choice not to use elbows unless pushed
LOL, in your last post you were questioning wether they were in WC before!



Simpler, higher, neanderthal.... you really are a condascending little thing arent you.
Again, I based what I said on your "magic stuff" remark. These type of remarks are common here and they usually come from MMA type, kung fu tagged practitioners who start making jokes about "magic stuff" and "fantasy fu", the minute someone mentions the higher level TCMA methodologies, such as the Internals, including "softness" and internal body unity.




So you know it all do you??.... Wow!
My knowledge of Wing Chun is intermediate.




Youre probably right.... but you do ask fo it
As long as I am right, then your "counter points" and slanders come across as childish trolling.




And if you look at my earlier i actually ackowledge his stucture in that clip. I even refgerence a post of mine from years ago saying the same thing.
Also im seeing Alan and his guys also doing a lot of boxing strikes as well... so by defintion he is no longer doing WC??
Alan is a TCMA-ist. His core style is Wing Chun. He has lineage. Using some hooking punches (which are also used in other TCMA styles) does not make him a non-TCMAist. LOL



Shame you didnt learn some humility of them while you were there
Actual, I am like this only with pompous people who go around trolling or pretending TCMA knowledge,while blowing their horns for MMA, BJJ,etc. and in a KUNG FU forum at that.

The BJJ people that I met in Rio, were great guys. They did not blow their horns for BJJ, neither did I blow my horn for kung fu. To each his own, which means I don't frequent BJJ, MMA and MT forums, telling them how great kung fu practice is, either!




?

I never said there wasnt circular kicks, i said there wasnt the classical round house kick. Dont try to be clever
Please describe what you consider to be a Wing Chun circular kick, as opposed to the "classic" round house. I am seriously interested!




Well ill leave it at that, i think we are really boring everyone here, ciao for now waffler ;)
No one was bored as much as me, but hey I was trying to get you to see the "light".:p

And I would still appreciate an answer as regards what you consider to be the acceptable circular kick in Wing Chun, as opposed to the unacceptable (non-existant) classical round house kick.

[Alan Orr]

[QUOTE] =GlennR;1148635]And if you look at my earlier i actually ackowledge his stucture in that clip. I even refgerence a post of mine from years ago saying the same thing.
Also im seeing Alan and his guys also doing a lot of boxing strikes as well... so by defintion he is no longer doing WC??[QUOTE]

We are not using normal boxing punches. We do not jab in the same way. We use our CSL Wing Chun spring punch. In terms of boxing hooks we punch in a different different way again, using our whipping punch. Hand, elbow, fist, body position, knuckles are are different to normal western boxing. Same goes for uppercuts - our bounce punch -Right cross - our thrusting punch and so on. We have a lot more striking methods in our CSL Chinese Boxing system as well has a Principles of defence with glove training.

They are all different, we pack our shoulders as well so all in all its nothing like standard normal boxing, but that's not to say that some modern boxers are not punching with punches that I would say are the same, as some are indeed. That depends on boxers styles, some find a groove and make it work as they are testing successes and learning from the feedback. Other just work harder on what they are told.

I teach a lot of MMA fighters how to punch without hurting their hands and to improve power and balance. This is all CSL Wing Chun as we have a system of chinese boxing within our CSL Wing Chun. Tired and tested.

[Hardwork108]

We are not using normal boxing punches. We do not jab in the same way. We use our CSL Wing Chun spring punch. In terms of boxing hooks we punch in a different different way again, using our whipping punch. Hand, elbow, fist, body position, knuckles are are different to normal western boxing. Same goes for uppercuts - our bounce punch -Right cross - our thrusting punch and so on. We have a lot more striking methods in our CSL Chinese Boxing system as well has a Principles of defence with glove training.

They are all different, we pack our shoulders as well so all in all its nothing like standard normal boxing, but that's not to say that some modern boxers are not punching with punches that I would say are the same, as some are indeed. That depends on boxers styles, some find a groove and make it work as they are testing successes and learning from the feedback. Other just work harder on what they are told.

I teach a lot of MMA fighters how to punch without hurting their hands and to improve power and balance. This is all CSL Wing Chun as we have a system of chinese boxing within our CSL Wing Chun. Tired and tested.

Thank you for that interesting insight into the some of the striking techniques of CSL Wing Chun.

I am still fascinated with the scope of Wing Chun and the resultant richness that its concepts and priniciples provide for within the various lineages.

[Alan Orr]

Thank you for that interesting insight into the some of the striking techniques of CSL Wing Chun.

I am still fascinated with the scope of Wing Chun and the resultant richness that its concepts and priniciples provide for within the various lineages.

Many thanks. More clips coming next week as well.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . Tired and tested.
We all know you meant Tried and tested Alan..... ;)

[Alan Orr]

We all know you meant Tried and tested Alan..... ;)

haha Maybe lol Its been a long thread!

[Hardwork108]

Many thanks. More clips coming next week as well.

I look forward to seeing them. :)

[GlennR]

=GlennR;1148635]And if you look at my earlier i actually ackowledge his stucture in that clip. I even refgerence a post of mine from years ago saying the same thing.
Also im seeing Alan and his guys also doing a lot of boxing strikes as well... so by defintion he is no longer doing WC

We are not using normal boxing punches. We do not jab in the same way. We use our CSL Wing Chun spring punch. In terms of boxing hooks we punch in a different different way again, using our whipping punch. Hand, elbow, fist, body position, knuckles are are different to normal western boxing. Same goes for uppercuts - our bounce punch -Right cross - our thrusting punch and so on. We have a lot more striking methods in our CSL Chinese Boxing system as well has a Principles of defence with glove training.T

Re read my comment Alan and use it in context to our (increasingly silly) argument.
HW108 is saying that if Kev doesnt use elbows its not WC. Im saying he can drop them if he doesnt feel they suit his MO of fighting. IMO opinion what defines a WC fighter is his structure.... not what type of hand techs he throws.
If you have good WC structure you can throw what you like... its just the foundation that defines it... not the individual shot.
So, yes, you can throw jabs crosses hooks etc in a WC way.... its the stucture that is the key.
Question for you?
If you dropped elbows would it still be WC in your opinion?

I bought you up as, to the normal eye, you appear to be doing a lot of boxing techs. If it was anyone else but you (you have a fanboy in HW108) he would have been all over you.


hey are all different, we pack our shoulders as well so all in all its nothing like standard normal boxing, but that's not to say that some modern boxers are not punching with punches that I would say are the same, as some are indeed. That depends on boxers styles, some find a groove and make it work as they are testing successes and learning from the feedback. Other just work harder on what they are told.

Yep, i see all that


I teach a lot of MMA fighters how to punch without hurting their hands and to improve power and balance. This is all CSL Wing Chun as we have a system of chinese boxing within our CSL Wing Chun. Tired and tested

No prob with that, and all power to your fighters.

[Alan Orr]

T

Re read my comment Alan and use it in context to our (increasingly silly) argument.
HW108 is saying that if Kev doesnt use elbows its not WC. Im saying he can drop them if he doesnt feel they suit his MO of fighting. IMO opinion what defines a WC fighter is his structure.... not what type of hand techs he throws.
If you have good WC structure you can throw what you like... its just the foundation that defines it... not the individual shot.
So, yes, you can throw jabs crosses hooks etc in a WC way.... its the stucture that is the key.
Question for you?
If you dropped elbows would it still be WC in your opinion?

I bought you up as, to the normal eye, you appear to be doing a lot of boxing techs. If it was anyone else but you (you have a fanboy in HW108) he would have been all over you.



Yep, i see all that



No prob with that, and all power to your fighters.


Not even sure of your question. If I dropped Elbows?

We use elbows all the time. We just have control when training. What other people do or don't do is up too them.

The structure we talk about is just different to how you see structure. No big deal to me at all. My clips are just show what we do and why. I will be posting a lot more clips so if my first few clips are stressing some people out then you are in for some fun.

I don't know why you guys even care. If you like it cool, if you have questions great, if you don't like it fine - but we don't need to hear what you may think or what could happen - as its all pie in the sky. I know what I am doing, I know why and I no how. It may be different to your views on wing chun - but it does not make it wrong or not wing chun as some have said.

[Alan Orr]

I look forward to seeing them. :)

Thanks. Will be up on Tuesday or Wednesday.

If you have any questions you like to too answer on clips then let me know as well.

best Alan

[GlennR]

Not even sure of your question. If I dropped Elbows?

Dropped them it was a hypothetical question

W
e use elbows all the time. We just have control when training. What other people do or don't do is up too them.

Yep, up to the individual


The structure we talk about is just different to how you see structure. No big deal to me at all. My clips are just show what we do and why. I will be posting a lot more clips so if my first few clips are stressing some people out then you are in for some fun.

If you read my post, that's what i 1st comment about. Your structure. I even comment how much you appear like my instructor.

Im agreeing with you Alan


I don't know why you guys even care. If you like it cool, if you have questions great, if you don't like it fine - but we don't need to hear what you may think or what could happen - as its all pie in the sky. I know what I am doing, I know why and I no how. It may be different to your views on wing chun - but it does not make it wrong or not wing chun as some have said

Once again, i was agreeing with you.

[Alan Orr]

Dropped them it was a hypothetical question

W

Yep, up to the individual



If you read my post, that's what i 1st comment about. Your structure. I even comment how much you appear like my instructor.

Im agreeing with you Alan



Once again, i was agreeing with you.


Cool, I am lost with this thread lol

[GlennR]

Cool, I am lost with this thread lol

Hahhaa.... i think we all are and should put a bullet to its head!

One question Alan, do your guys enter boxing matches?

[Alan Orr]

Hahhaa.... i think we all are and should put a bullet to its head!

One question Alan, do your guys enter boxing matches?

Yes my guys have been in all types events -

MMA at all levels - K1 - Boxing - Chi Sao events.

I also have taught other guys outside of my group for Boxing matches which great results.

[guy b.]

The problem with making comments on just clips and what you think I am doing is its all on the assumption that you know what you are talking about.

I rather listen to feedback for the fighters that I meet and train with as they are the opinions that I value.

All you have shown is that you have very limited mind in the martial arts.

When did you visit my school and what is your background?

Alan you can't very well tell me that I shouldn't comment on clips when you yourself criticise the quality of a lot of the wing chun on youtube. Saying I have a "limited mind" is meaningless because you don't know who I am or what my experience is. It is telling that nobody who has agreed with you has received this particular criticism. All you are saying is that you will lash out in anger if anyone offers criticism- fair enough but this kind of response points to a lack of confidence.

I am confident that I know what I am talking about and that I have sufficient experience to be able to tell a lot from clips. Nobody would be stupid enough to suggest that an informed observer can't tell a lot about the skill level of a boxer or jiu jitsu fighter by looking at clips of their sparring or performance. Why should it be different for wing chun? I am only saying what I see. I do think there is a lot of good in some of your clips, especially the performances of a couple of your fighters, but I stand by my original analysis. Your clips do not show anything to make me change my mind.

Why you are personally insulted by this is beyond me.

[Alan Orr]

1. Alan doesn't or cannot do what his young fit fighters can do. He simply doesn't fight in the same way. This is probably because he was already quite old when he discovered the CSL method and so well past his prime, if he was ever gifted in that area. This would not be a problem except that:

2. Alan is at the peak of an extended teaching structure with different belt levels and little bits of information being fed, mostly to the kind of physically ungifted individuals that make up the average martial arts class, in a drip drip fashion over a long period of time. Even though the guys that fight are clearly better at puching and kicking in a live environment than Alan is, he still needs to dominate them in some way in order to maintain the heirarchy necessary for the business model being used. This is done as described earlier in chi sau and other drills using body weight, tactics of questionable real-fight utility, and a slappy chi sau technique that appears irrelevant to the way they actually fight. The obvious unfamiliarity of the best guys with chi sau shows that they are not doing a lot of it in training.



So where the f... do you get the idea that I teach in A drip drip fashion or I have some need to dominate my students to maintain some sort of he hierarchy for a business model!!??!!

The other stuff you say about slappy chi sau is enough to show you lack of understanding, but the other stuff is just rude and BS!

Your opinion is just a slander. The clips are just normal training not made up demos. What you have posted about is more what you think I am doing in in terms of teaching and things you don't even have a clue on. Thats why you have a limited mind.

[Alan Orr]

Alan you can't very well tell me that I shouldn't comment on clips when you yourself criticise the quality of a lot of the wing chun on youtube. Saying I have a "limited mind" is meaningless because you don't know who I am or what my experience is. It is telling that nobody who has agreed with you has received this particular criticism. All you are saying is that you will lash out in anger if anyone offers criticism- fair enough but this kind of response points to a lack of confidence.

I am confident that I know what I am talking about and that I have sufficient experience to be able to tell a lot from clips. Nobody would be stupid enough to suggest that an informed observer can't tell a lot about the skill level of a boxer or jiu jitsu fighter by looking at clips of their sparring or performance. Why should it be different for wing chun? I am only saying what I see. I do think there is a lot of good in some of your clips, especially the performances of a couple of your fighters, but I stand by my original analysis. Your clips do not show anything to make me change my mind.

Why you are personally insulted by this is beyond me.

I have not lack of confidence at all. I am angry with your rude comments on areas of my life that you know nothing about.

Informed observer has to understand what they are looking at. CSL system is not what you have learnt so of course you will see it in a different way. Depending of your level of skill you will see something, but that is questionable.

[Paul T England]

Guy b,

What is your definition of a "fighter"....you need to be young and dedicated to be a high level sports fighter such as mma, boxing etc. Their are plenty of unfit (less than match fit), older individuals I would not like to try and fight for real!!

Sounds like you have not crossed hands with Alan or his students?

Each individual brings different skills to the table. Like them or not you can probably learn something from many of them. I think we should not compare fighter and non-fighter but intelligent people and people with a screw loose!

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Phil Redmond]

I understand that people have a right to their opinions. But this isn't youtube where anonymous trolls trash people. This is a martial arts forum. We're "supposed" to have some since of Mo Duk. It would be nice for you to post who you are an your background. Your comments would be taken more seriously by many others if you did so.

[Peter Irving]

Peter Irving here, I'm one the CSL "Iron Wolves" fight team main competitors. I normally try to resist entering into forum debates, and haven't truthfully had time to review the whole thread, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground.

I'm certainly not the best qualified, or for that matter the most interested party in debating what does and does not constitute proper Wing Chun, but I probably am the best qualified person to refute a couple of things about Alan's abilities and character.




1. Alan doesn't or cannot do what his young fit fighters can do. He simply doesn't fight in the same way. This is probably because he was already quite old when he discovered the CSL method and so well past his prime, if he was ever gifted in that area. This would not be a problem except that:

2. Alan is at the peak of an extended teaching structure with different belt levels and little bits of information being fed, mostly to the kind of physically ungifted individuals that make up the average martial arts class, in a drip drip fashion over a long period of time. Even though the guys that fight are clearly better at puching and kicking in a live environment than Alan is, he still needs to dominate them in some way in order to maintain the heirarchy necessary for the business model being used. This is done as described earlier in chi sau and other drills using body weight, tactics of questionable real-fight utility, and a slappy chi sau technique that appears irrelevant to the way they actually fight. The obvious unfamiliarity of the best guys with chi sau shows that they are not doing a lot of it in training.



Alan is my teacher, and additionally has been one of my main sparring partners for the last two years. He's perfectly capable of doing what he teaches, and outworks everyone else on the team. The best I can ever get is %50/50, and that's a rare and probably charitable experience.

As for the business model, I think Alan has probably lost a small fortune training me, getting me fights and supporting me through them.

As for the drip feeding, I've never had any secrets concealed from me nor anyone else, just a well structured, progressive delivery of skills. I suppose you could call that drip, drip fashion.

But perhaps I only say that because I've been dominated by an "untouchable cult figure". Who knows?

[anerlich]

Peter,

Good to see a student backing his instructor.