Kulo village Pin Sun Boxing

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,

We have been working on sharing more Kulo village Pin Sun boxing info. thru youtube. Yesterday we posted two new clips! Enjoy


Sifu Fung Chun demonstrates "Som Bai Fut":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=bmXWjKPYIts&feature=endscreen


JJR demonstrates Siu Lin & Dai Lin "Jong Sao - Dummy Hands":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk-3f8aZD4o&feature=player_embedded


Other Pin Sun youtube clips:


Sifu Fung Chun & JJR "Chuk Ging":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_qCmfvIt_c&feature=related


JJR & Partner "Siu Lin - Partner Set":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XjTpWkHjVc&feature=related


JJR & Partner "Dai Lin - Partner Set":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKjiOBtX_k4&feature=related

***

You can also find more footage at:

http://www.apricotforesthall.com/gallery_videos.html


Respect to Master Leung Jan!


Peace,

Jim Roselando

www.apricotforesthall.com
www.wingchunillustrated.com
http://web.mit.edu/qigong

[Runlikehell]

Thanks for posting the videos, will give them a watch.

[imperialtaichi]

Very nice clips. Thanks Jim.

[LoneTiger108]

It's nice to see the clips again, as I do like to follow your research Jim, and I was happy to learn a martial cousin of mine in Austria was recently trained by Fung Chun in his 12 hand set.

Still, very different way of learning but all good imho. :)

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,

Thanks for the feedback.

I enjoy sharing this stuff so we will continue to post more clips little by little on different elements of Master Leung Jan's teaching. Many people are always asking about Pin Sun's Wooden Dummy Hands so we wanted to get that footage out for all plus little footage of Master Fung Chun demo'ing SBF.

Enjoy!

Jim

www.apricotforesthall.com
www.wingchunillustrated.com
http://web.mit.edu/qigong

[beungood]

How is it a different way of learning? What delineates it from other Wing Chun? Is this style suitable for first timers or is it better to be well versed in another style? Do they use the three forms?

Thanks,

Jack

[Runlikehell]

How is it a different way of learning? What delineates it from other Wing Chun? Is this style suitable for first timers or is it better to be well versed in another style? Do they use the three forms?

Thanks,

Jack

They don't train the forms. They train certain movements or 'San Sik'.

Some of the posters in this thread are versed in the Kulo arts, and can provide you with more information than I.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Jack,


Basically all Wing Chun is all pretty "similar". We all have (for the most part) the same tools but the difference in Master Leung Jan's arts compared to other Wing Chun systems can be found in the arts core platform rather than the longer classical sets, the partner & sticking sets are a a bit different and the principles/dynamics are different from most Foshan WC. So, even tho we are all similar there are the little things that make each art unique but it is certainly suitable for new or experienced people. There are no classical forms.

For more info:

www.apricotforesthall.com

Hopse this helps!


Peace,
Jim



How is it a different way of learning? What delineates it from other Wing Chun? Is this style suitable for first timers or is it better to be well versed in another style? Do they use the three forms?

Thanks,

Jack

[beungood]

Do they all use Snake Engine and power generation?

[imperialtaichi]

Do they all use Snake Engine and power generation?

No fancy stuff in Kulo. Simplicity gives you speed, coverage and power.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Do they all use Snake Engine and power generation

***

The "Snake" engine is (IMO) preserved by Yik Kam's lineage. Not Leung Jan's Pin Sun Wing Chun. Certainly dynamics, momentum and power generation are part of our training. Leung Jan's art uses multi-directional forces combined with soft dynamics to produce its Chuk Ging. Of course you have to combine that stuff with a specifically conditioned body to get maximum results.

None of the above stuff, including YK's Snake methods, are complicated at all. Its all very simple stuff designed to hit the body at a rapid pace. Both Yik Kam's method and Pin Sun's methods are truly refined and effective. The other great thing about both is that they are so simple anyone can practice them and they both will have a similar effect on your athletics as if you are taking Wing Chun Steroids!!!


Hope this helps!


Peace,

[LoneTiger108]

The "Snake" engine is (IMO) preserved by Yik Kam's lineage. Not Leung Jan's Pin Sun Wing Chun. Certainly dynamics, momentum and power generation are part of our training. Leung Jan's art uses multi-directional forces combined with soft dynamics to produce its Chuk Ging. Of course you have to combine that stuff with a specifically conditioned body to get maximum results.

Y'know Jim, thank you for finally using a Wing Chun specific Cantonese term, rather than using the Fajin that seems to be permeating throughout this forum these days! Not that it's an issue for me, but I can see it being quite confusing for the newcomers imho.

You are the only other person I know of here who has used the term 'Chuk Ging' and although I pronounce that 'Chook' I can only guess we are referring to the same energy projection :)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[Hendrik]

Y'know Jim, thank you for finally using a Wing Chun specific Cantonese term, rather than using the Fajin that seems to be permeating throughout this forum these days! Not that it's an issue for me, but I can see it being quite confusing for the newcomers imho.

You are the only other person I know of here who has used the term 'Chuk Ging' and although I pronounce that 'Chook' I can only guess we are referring to the same energy projection :)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Jim has learn both the kulo and snake engine directly and experience both . So he could tell you how things work from his experience.


Jim also has went to see the gate holder of emei 12 zhuang to see for himself what is the snake. And confirm the five finger trace taiji in the Gm Fung clip as in the end of the Sam bai fut clip above is the emei 12 five finger tracing taiji DNA.



Btw
Chun ging is a specific type of ging .
Fajin or fat ging is refer as general force vector issue.

[kung fu fighter]

The "Snake" engine is (IMO) preserved by Yik Kam's lineage. Not Leung Jan's Pin Sun Wing Chun. Certainly dynamics, momentum and power generation are part of our training. Leung Jan's art uses multi-directional forces combined with soft dynamics to produce its Chuk Ging. Of course you have to combine that stuff with a specifically conditioned body to get maximum results.

What's the difference between the snake engine, and the engine in PSWC?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,

Chuk Ging is the term used by Kulo lineage. Perhaps Lee Shing's exposure to Pin Sun Wing Chun is why you guys have that term. For me, Fa Jin or Faat Ging is not as WC specific but both are descriptive terms for different ways of issuing force.

Peace,
Jim



Y'know Jim, thank you for finally using a Wing Chun specific Cantonese term, rather than using the Fajin that seems to be permeating throughout this forum these days! Not that it's an issue for me, but I can see it being quite confusing for the newcomers imho.

You are the only other person I know of here who has used the term 'Chuk Ging' and although I pronounce that 'Chook' I can only guess we are referring to the same energy projection

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,

Pin Sun & Yik Kam both retain core elements that contain old style boxing and cultivation. Both of these arts also have similar dynamics and concepts. The main difference is (besides platform) Yik Kam's art has retained the Qi & Meridian process and the Kulo art does not address this aspect.

Hope this helps.

Jim

***


What's the difference between the snake engine, and the engine in PSWC?

[imperialtaichi]

What's the difference between the snake engine, and the engine in PSWC?

Hello KFF,

Can't speak for Jim, but in the 22pt line the power method can be classified under Bai Fut Sau (Buddha Palm), Siu Lim Sau (Tau) and Fook Fu (Subdue Tiger). Of course, each Sik has its own power generating characteristics, with some overlapping.

The Yut Ji Fung An Tsui (Phoenix Eye Hammer) marks the perimeter of the forward triangle, and the Baat Gua (Hanging 8) marks the reverse triangle.

The Sup Ji Sei Mun Fu Mei Tsui (Tiger Tail Hammer) marks the directions plus it is the mother of most of the changes.

The Siks are not really "forms/stances" with strict structures; but exercises to cultivate the correct habits, method and power.

Jim, I think you are doing a 12pt? and Spencer a 40pt? (please correct me if I my memory is off) It would be nice to hear from your view.

Cheers,
John

[LoneTiger108]

Hello,

Chuk Ging is the term used by Kulo lineage. Perhaps Lee Shing's exposure to Pin Sun Wing Chun is why you guys have that term.

I do not for one moment think or believe that this term is linked only to Kulo Village, but it could explain why nobody ever uses it. While I was learning, and even my own Sifu, Kulo village was never mentioned once. My Sifu was with Lee Shing for over 35 years. It was my kung fu uncle Sifu Joe Lee who first used the term 'Kulo' (Gulao) Wing Chun and he was sidelined and criticized so much for doing so he literally shut himself off from the commercial Wing Chun world and continued to teach from his front room!! Hence the term 'closed door'! He is adament that what he specialized in was Lee Shings knowledge of Kulo Wing Chun, and I for one believe him. ;) as do his close group of long term students, some have been with him now for over 20 years.

Lee Shing learnt from many sources and he was a pioneer of his day because of this fact. He was on a mission to simply help Ip Man promote Wing Chun, not Ip Man Wing Chun, Kulo Wing Chun or whatever. Just Wing Chun on behalf of the Wing Chun Pai at the time. This is also why every one of his students learnt something different from the other. No set curriculum, just individually tailored Wing Chun training. :)

[LoneTiger108]

Jim, I think you are doing a 12pt? and Spencer a 40pt? (please correct me if I my memory is off) It would be nice to hear from your view.

Cheers,
John

Hi John

FWIW Lee Shing taught a 12 set hand system only from the Fung Family. And he taught that method to (possibly) only one student I know of out of hundreds, Sifu Joe Lee. But don't get me wrong, Sifu Joe Lee had to learn all the Ip Man HK stuff first and teach that to his students first before he could even consider talking about the 12 methods. My Sigung held that knowledge with some major adoration.

My own Sifu was taught a broader curriculum simply because he was around Lee Shing for the longest time. I consider this to be a mix of Kulo/Foshan/Guandong and HK Wing Chun. This was what he taught me, and we later deciphered and minimized it all to a 40 point method which I teach today. I am the first person authorized to do this under my Sifu, along with my SiHing, and this is why it was so unfamiliar back in 1997 when we first demonstrated in Londons Chinatown.

I've said it before and I will say it again.

IMHO These methods are exactly that. A method of teaching/coaching Wing Chun using simple expressions to remember key points and ideas passed down from the ancestors rather than terminologies or names of techniques. We have references to Tigers and Dragons too, plum flower wooden man work, a massive array of legwork and alternative interactive drills with weaponry and small subsets of specific Heigung practice that is different from the YKS stuff. All these methods of teaching did not come from Ip Man. I have always been certain of that.

Man, sorry for that babbling. My first of 2012!!! But I hope it helps a little.. :D

[Jim Roselando]

Spencer,


I do not know any other lineage that uses that term other than Kulo. Maybe you can show me another lineage using the term Chuk Ging? Even if Lee Shing was mainly teaching his own combo of WC arts (that were mainly rooted in YMWC) it does not mean he didn't use some of our terms while teaching.


Peace,
Jim


You wrote:

I do not for one moment think or believe that this term is linked only to Kulo Village, but it could explain why nobody ever uses it.

[Jim Roselando]

John,


Leung Jan taught Wong Wah Sam (and others) the 12 Fists who then passed it to eight relatives. Two are still alive in Kulo village. Fung Chun (92) and Fung Men (98).

Recently, in WC Illustrated mag I wrote about the arts history and the purpose of the LJ's 12 Fists design. I even translate some of the posters in LJ's home in the last issue to show who the arts main players are and when the art was modified etc.. Essentially the 12 are a compressed SLT/CK/BJ done with Side Facing methods.

Hope this helps.


Peace, JR


You Wrote:


Jim, I think you are doing a 12pt? and Spencer a 40pt? (please correct me if I my memory is off) It would be nice to hear from your view.

[LoneTiger108]

I do not know any other lineage that uses that term other than Kulo. Maybe you can show me another lineage using the term Chuk Ging? Even if Lee Shing was mainly teaching his own combo of WC arts (that were mainly rooted in YMWC) it does not mean he didn't use some of our terms while teaching.

You could be right about why he used that term, but what I'm saying is that it is just a general Wing Chun term to me (everybody else should know this surely??!)

Your BIG misconception here is that my Sigung was 'mainly rooted in YMWC'. Simply incorrect according to the Ip Family these days and my own personal understaing after being heavily involved with the family over the past years. His main objective was to promote Ip Mans curriculum, yes, but that was not how he actually learnt Wing Chun at all. Far from it IMHHHO. This is what also caused concern in the early eighties, as Ip Mans students didn't even know who Lee Shing was as he only ever learnt from Ip man on a 121 basis in a very private manner. More due to his existing ability rather than anything else, but it did cost my Sigung a small fortune lol!! As did all his other Martial Art research from what I have been told, mainly the Fung and Cho Families.

His learning prior to Ip Man was his 'main influence' as it was accumulated over many years and much traveling! Ip Man, in a sense, confirmed his learning and acknowledged his skill by allowing him to represent the (Y)Ip Man Martial Arts Athletic Association at the time (notice the absence of Wing Chun in that particular Association!!) ;) Lee Shing was younger than me at that point lol!! Bit of a Young Master according to Ip Chun, and very well versed in what they referred to then as Gok Seurt, or National Art (the pre-cursor ro Modern Wushu)

This is why I have a massive respect for all lineages of Wing Chun who have an open heart and mind. Because my own Sigung was one of the forerunners of the modern 'multi-master' way. Ahead of his time in many ways, and still very very humble according to his all direct students.

[Jim Roselando]

Spencer,

The term Chuk Ging is not general WC. I have only heard it from Kulo family and those who had some kind of connection to Kulo family.

I really don't think I have a BIG misconception hahaha.... Lee Shing did have exposure and training with some other people/lineages but 80+% of what is being done in LSWC is mostly YMWC. Many from Yip family might not consider it "strict" YMWC because of some of the modifications (forms/applications) that are obviously his own tweaks of the art based on his other training.

IMO, if anyone watches Lee Shing demo some of his WC you will know instantly what it is. For those reading this thread just take a look at this short clip showing LS doing some SNT, CK, BJ, MYJ etc.. Everything from the mechanics to form sequences are "mainly" rooted in YMWC. That is not to say there isn't other influence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dD6_7mzAQs


Gotta run!

JR


You could be right about why he used that term, but what I'm saying is that it is just a general Wing Chun term to me (everybody else should know this surely??!)

Your BIG misconception here is that my Sigung was 'mainly rooted in YMWC'. Simply incorrect according to the Ip Family these days and my own personal understaing after being heavily involved with the family over the past years. His main objective was to promote Ip Mans curriculum, yes, but that was not how he actually learnt Wing Chun at all. Far from it IMHHHO. This is what also caused concern in the early eighties, as Ip Mans students didn't even know who Lee Shing was as he only ever learnt from Ip man on a 121 basis in a very private manner. More due to his existing ability rather than anything else, but it did cost my Sigung a small fortune lol!! As did all his other Martial Art research from what I have been told, mainly the Fung and Cho Families.

His learning prior to Ip Man was his 'main influence' as it was accumulated over many years and much traveling! Ip Man, in a sense, confirmed his learning and acknowledged his skill by allowing him to represent the (Y)Ip Man Martial Arts Athletic Association at the time (notice the absence of Wing Chun in that particular Association!!) Lee Shing was younger than me at that point lol!! Bit of a Young Master according to Ip Chun, and very well versed in what they referred to then as Gok Seurt, or National Art (the pre-cursor ro Modern Wushu)

This is why I have a massive respect for all lineages of Wing Chun who have an open heart and mind. Because my own Sigung was one of the forerunners of the modern 'multi-master' way. Ahead of his time in many ways, and still very very humble according to his all direct students.

[kung fu fighter]

Essentially the 12 are a compressed SLT/CK/BJ done with Side Facing methods.

Hello,

What exactly is your definition of side facing? is it when you are facing the opponent on his flank? or when you are directly in front of him, but turned so that your side is facing him?

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer,

The term Chuk Ging is not general WC. I have only heard it from Kulo family and those who had some kind of connection to Kulo family.

I find that very interesting indeed Jim, and will double check with my own Sifu about the term when I see him, and ask what he thinks of your opinion. There was never a distinction of sorts in his own training fme so it may be news to him too!


I really don't think I have a BIG misconception hahaha.... Lee Shing did have exposure and training with some other people/lineages but 80+% of what is being done in LSWC is mostly YMWC.

I disagree totally because what I have learnt has nothing whatsoever to do with Ip Man, it's simply not the same approach at all. By the time I started even Lee Shing himself had passed away and my Sifu taught me freely and under no 'banner' of Ip Man.

80+% of what you have seen maybe, but you haven't trained in the family have you, I'm not sure? And I use the term 'seen' very loosely here because I imagine that you are only referring to the brief clips of Sifu Goh and Sigung on Youtube?


IMO, if anyone watches Lee Shing demo some of his WC you will know instantly what it is. For those reading this thread just take a look at this short clip showing LS doing some SNT, CK, BJ, MYJ etc.. Everything from the mechanics to form sequences are "mainly" rooted in YMWC. That is not to say there isn't other influence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dD6_7mzAQs

Like I said earlier, Lee Shings purpose was to promote Ip Man Wing Chun. His most successful 'public' Sifu is Austin Goh, and this will explain why you have seen what you have seen. This, in all honesty, has very little to do with how I learnt or how my own Sifu was taught. Something else to consider for everyone here :) forms are just forms. The method of training the whole curriculum is totally different than simply copying forms!

[Jim Roselando]

Spencer wrote:


The method of training the whole curriculum is totally different than simply copying forms!

***


If you say it isn't mainly YMWC maybe you can go ahead and show some "real" LSWC. I watched some of your Jun Mo WC on youtube but couldn't really judge it fairly as they had a large amount of Wushu mixed in them.

Even in the old clip of your "Uncle" Joe Lee doing some of his Pin Sun is still mainly YMWC application being done out of a Kulo Chi Sao platform. Not long ago you posted a clip of Academie Tao or something like that stating it was a good demo of PSWC but sadly there was none being demo'd.

I have spoken with Joe Lee and others about your art back in the day. My rep in Wales was an instructor under A. Goh (lineage) and he has trained numerous courses with different Lee Shing people. Yes. You guys have a bunch of different things as part of your WC curriculum but that doesn't mean its heaviest influence and flavor isn't YMWC.

I would ask you the same question you asked me regarding the LS's art:

What exposure do you have to the Kulo family outside of Lee Shing people and Youtube to know if what you are doing is PSWC or not?


Peace,

[LoneTiger108]

If you say it isn't mainly YMWC maybe you can go ahead and show some "real" LSWC. I watched some of your Jun Mo WC on youtube but couldn't really judge it fairly as they had a large amount of Wushu mixed in them.

Really? Is that what you see?


My rep in Wales was an instructor under A. Goh (lineage) and he has trained numerous courses with different Lee Shing people. Yes. You guys have a bunch of different things as part of your WC curriculum but that doesn't mean its heaviest influence and flavor isn't YMWC.

Point taken about the YMWC influence being heavy because that's what is publically promoted, as I have tried to explain (?)

But I think your rep in Wales has only given seminars to Austin Gohs students and he is obviously someone I look forward to meeting at some point so we can all become clearer on exactly what's what. It is kinda hard for people who have only learnt from one side of the family to generalize about what Lee Shing actually knew.


What exposure do you have to the Kulo family outside of Lee Shing people and Youtube to know if what you are doing is PSWC or not?

That's simple. I personally do not practise or was taught any PSWC (as you know it) but you are implying that Sifu Joe Lee's Wing Chun is not Kulo Wing Chun and I know he would argue that point!

Please consider that my Sigung was learning what you now call Kulo Wing Chun before 1950, and so it may not follow the current Fung Family promotions. That's not to say anyone is wrong here either, it can be explained through understanding different generations of students imho just as the current Ip Family practitioners have proven.

It's been great to chat with you too Jim and share our thoughts. I like to think that if we ever met it would be quite revolutionary! :)

[Jim Roselando]

Spencer,


Yes. Rob gave a PS seminar to one LS group but he and his old instructor would often go to a bunch of different courses up in London with LS family so they have had some exposure to different people. They played LSWC for over a decade.

Joe Lee's demo has a PS drill done with some YM applications. Is it PS. The drill would be but most of the application are not.

***

You wrote:

Please consider that my Sigung was learning what you now call Kulo Wing Chun before 1950, and so it may not follow the current Fung Family promotions. That's not to say anyone is wrong here either, it can be explained through understanding different generations of students imho just as the current Ip Family practitioners have proven.

***


The above info. doesn't make much sense to me. My grand teacher was Fung Min & Fung Chun's most outstanding student and he is listed in Leung Jan's home as their top pupil. This gave him exposure to the old style LJ taught WWS as well as Fung Chun's 12 which is what most people practice today. I was taught the old style that Fung Ju learned from Fung Min which is what Fung Sang also taught.

The evolution of the art has been well documented and we know what modifications came from which teacher. Here is a translation from one of the texts from Master Leung's home giving you an example of how the Kulo people know what and where etc:

“Leung Jan in Kulo taught: Wong Wah Sam, Yik Ying, Leung Bak Chung and others. Wong Wah Sam then taught: Fung Min and Fung Chun. These two then taught Fung Ju. During the time before this, only local Kulo people practiced Dr. Leung Jan's classical Wing Chun boxing. But after 1966, Fung Ju traveled far and wide, settling in Hong Kong, accepting all challenges and as a result, the Kulo Pai classical Wing Chun blossomed until even this day, Dr. Leung's Kulo Classical Wing Chun is famous worldwide.”


Joe Lee claims Lee Shing had two Kulo teachers. One being "Fong" Yee Min & Fung Sang. 1st. Wong Wah Sam had 8 disciples. Fung Yee Min (Fung Min) was one of them but there was no such person named FONG Yee Min. Fung Min only taught two people. Fung Ju & Fung Daat.

With regards to Lee Shing training with Fung Sang I am not sure how would this be possible during that time period. Fung Sang did not start teaching until he arrived in Hong Kong in the mid 1960's and Lee Shing left for the UK in 1962. Fung Sang was born in 1940 so unless he was teaching teaching LS when he was 10 years old I don't think it was possible???

So, unless he (Lee Shing) came back to China to do some training after he moved to the UK I do not know how he could have studied under Fung Sang. I tend to think this is the more likely for LS's PS exposure but anything is possible........

I'll be sure to let you know if I come to the UK. I'm sure we could have some fun...



Peace,

[Hendrik]

Hello,

Pin Sun & Yik Kam both retain core elements that contain old style boxing and cultivation. Both of these arts also have similar dynamics and concepts. The main difference is (besides platform) Yik Kam's art has retained the Qi & Meridian process and the Kulo art does not address this aspect.

Hope this helps.

Jim

***


What's the difference between the snake engine, and the engine in PSWC?
If the sky opened up for me,
And the mountain disappeared,
If the seas ran dry, turned to dust
And the sun refused to rise
I would still find my way,
By the light I see in your eyes
The world I know fades away
But you stay




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsawxq9ISyw

[imperialtaichi]

Sifu Fung Chun & JJR "Chuk Ging":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_qCmfvIt_c&feature=related


Jim, when Sifu Fung mentioned "Chuk Ging", was he referring to Chuk as in "Storing" or Chuk as in "Rapid/Speed"?

[Hendrik]

Jim, when Sifu Fung mentioned "Chuk Ging", was he referring to Chuk as in "Storing" or Chuk as in "Rapid/Speed"?

John,

Any reason you think Is storing?

For me, From the clip, as how Gm Fung explain the technique dynamic of open the middle door of the opponent in time , speed is much more likely.

[Jim Roselando]

John,

Jim, when Sifu Fung mentioned "Chuk Ging", was he referring to Chuk as in "Storing" or Chuk as in "Rapid/Speed"?

Chuk (speedy)

Peace,

[Vajramusti]

John,

Jim, when Sifu Fung mentioned "Chuk Ging", was he referring to Chuk as in "Storing" or Chuk as in "Rapid/Speed"?

Chuk (speedy)

Peace,
----------------

I figured as much.

[imperialtaichi]

John,

Any reason you think Is storing?

For me, From the clip, as how Gm Fung explain the technique dynamic of open the middle door of the opponent in time , speed is much more likely.

The opening can also be "loading the springs (?)" followed by release... so the key to the "snap" is not speeding forward, but releasing the springs.

Don't know...

[imperialtaichi]

John,

Jim, when Sifu Fung mentioned "Chuk Ging", was he referring to Chuk as in "Storing" or Chuk as in "Rapid/Speed"?

Chuk (speedy)

Peace,

Thanks Jim.

[Hendrik]

The opening can also be "loading the springs (?)" followed by release... so the key to the "snap" is not speeding forward, but releasing the springs.

Don't know...


Understood. Thanks.


A side to topic. Your jing yuan and six rings utube are very interesting.

In the jing yuan clip, do you have to take the income force direct going through your front to back , as straight line to your back of the chest , and then reflect it out via the out side or yang side of the arms? Or just reflect it out via the outside of the arm as soon as opponent press in without have to go to the back of the back to open and close there?

[imperialtaichi]

Understood. Thanks.


A side to topic. Your jing yuan and six rings utube are very interesting.

In the jing yuan clip, do you have to take the income force direct going through your front to back , as straight line to your back of the chest , and then reflect it out via the out side or yang side of the arms? Or just reflect it out via the outside of the arm as soon as opponent press in without have to go to the back of the back to open and close there?

It has to travel the whole path; but like a hose filled with water, when one end is pushed, water comes out the other end and the hose does not move.

So I don't really have to move much; it's the opponent who pushes himself off.

Hendrik, if you would like to discuss this further, let's start another thread so we don't hijack Jim's. :o

[Hendrik]

It has to travel the whole path; but like a hose filled with water, when one end is pushed, water comes out the other end and the hose does not move.

So I don't really have to move much; it's the opponent who pushes himself off.

Hendrik, if you would like to discuss this further, let's start another thread so we don't hijack Jim's. :o

John,

Thanks!

Let's start a new thread. This is interesting stuffs.

[LoneTiger108]

Yes. Rob gave a PS seminar to one LS group but he and his old instructor would often go to a bunch of different courses up in London with LS family so they have had some exposure to different people. They played LSWC for over a decade.

Hmm I don't know how to take that comment ;)

I have never 'played' Wing Chun! :D


My grand teacher was Fung Min & Fung Chun's most outstanding student and he is listed in Leung Jan's home as their top pupil. This gave him exposure to the old style LJ taught WWS as well as Fung Chun's 12 which is what most people practice today. I was taught the old style that Fung Ju learned from Fung Min which is what Fung Sang also taught...

And so it makes even more sense that we would have many things in common, but why is it that you are so determined to claim otherwise, and try to discredit an outstanding life-long Martial Artists in the process?


Joe Lee claims Lee Shing had two Kulo teachers. One being "Fong" Yee Min & Fung Sang. 1st. Wong Wah Sam had 8 disciples. Fung Yee Min (Fung Min) was one of them but there was no such person named FONG Yee Min. Fung Min only taught two people. Fung Ju & Fung Daat.

Dude. Sifu Joe Lee put that information out way back in the day so any variations in spelling may just be down to the students that put the original articles together. Fong Yee Min and Fung Min are one and the same. Now if he only produced 2 successors that doesn't mean to say he didn't teach others, does it?

And like you say, we only have a flavour of Kulo WC according to what you have seen, but a very rich old flavour imho.


With regards to Lee Shing training with Fung Sang I am not sure how would this be possible during that time period. Fung Sang did not start teaching until he arrived in Hong Kong in the mid 1960's and Lee Shing left for the UK in 1962. Fung Sang was born in 1940 so unless he was teaching teaching LS when he was 10 years old I don't think it was possible

So, unless he (Lee Shing) came back to China to do some training after he moved to the UK I do not know how he could have studied under Fung Sang. I tend to think this is the more likely for LS's PS exposure but anything is possible

Well, there you have it. You have now learnt something more about Lee Shing! He didn't stop learning Wing Chun when he arrived in the UK. He, for one, visited Ip Man every year from 1963 for private tuition and updates and he continued his research by traveling through Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand.

As for him learning from 10 years old, I believe it was earlier than that. He was into Martial Arts and being brought up in Hoxan, Guandong, he had plenty of opportunity to learn from some of the best of the time. This is still being researched too but I don't see it as that important.

Fact is, many things you talk of have been embedded within Lee Shings own training for a time, and as his grandstudent I can see how and why we do things the way we do because my overview of the Wing Chun system as a whole is very wide imo I understand the need to continue to learn and this is why I originally came to the forum, so I could meet people who could help join the dots just like you and a few others here.

Thank you for sharing your findings, I will have to retire now and let the thread continue on it's path.

[Jim Roselando]

Spencer,


Dude. Sifu Joe Lee put that information out way back in the day so any variations in spelling may just be down to the students that put the original articles together. Fong Yee Min and Fung Min are one and the same. Now if he only produced 2 successors that doesn't mean to say he didn't teach others, does it?

Joe Lee and I spoke on the phone regarding this. Joe clearly states, Lee Shing said Wong Wah Sam's heir was Fong YM, and, Fong YM was not a Fung. He (Joe Lee) was also clear when he stated to me; Only Fong YM got Wong Wah Sam's real Kung Fu!!! His words, not mine. So it seems Lee Shing fed him a little bit of stuff that makes the grass grow. ;)

BTW: Yes. Fung Min only taught his son (Fung Daat) and nephew (Fung Ju). He did not casually teach people. This is starting to remind me of the Yip Man-Leung Bik stories to boost seniority except we have more access to family to know what's what! JR


Well, there you have it. You have now learnt something more about Lee Shing! He didn't stop learning Wing Chun when he arrived in the UK. He, for one, visited Ip Man every year from 1963 for private tuition and updates and he continued his research by traveling through Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand.

Actually I think you have learned more about Lee Shing since this discussion :). The above info. could explain how he may have met Fung Sang and also explain why Lee Shing made people play Yip Man WC before introducing them to his PSWC. He probably didn't know any when he started teaching in the UK. JR

As for him learning from 10 years old, I believe it was earlier than that. He was into Martial Arts and being brought up in Hoxan, Guandong, he had plenty of opportunity to learn from some of the best of the time. This is still being researched too but I don't see it as that important.

Go to any Kung Fu school and watch a kids class. Other than being a great spot for an hour or so of baby sitting not much is grasped at that age. Well, we are just talking Kulo lineage info. and Lee Shing's stories claim he learned Pin Sun before arriving in HK and meeting some of Yip's pupils.. Now we are realizing it is probably more likely that he got a little training during some of his visits later in life. After 1963! JR

Fact is, many things you talk of have been embedded within Lee Shings own training for a time, and as his grandstudent I can see how and why we do things the way we do because my overview of the Wing Chun system as a whole is very wide imo I understand the need to continue to learn and this is why I originally came to the forum, so I could meet people who could help join the dots just like you and a few others here.

Yes. The forums have been a good place to meet and share with others. It also help clear up a lot of mysteries thanks to so much info. being share. The more we all discuss this stuff the more we get a more likely. JR

Thank you for sharing your findings, I will have to retire now and let the thread continue on it's path.

I enjoyed the chat. I also hope the info. helped clear up some stuff.

Peace,

[LoneTiger108]

I am beginning to see where you are coming from Jim.

It may not be beneficial for either of us to continue here because your tone seems to have gone on the offensive for some reason.

I just want to highlight and confirm what you are saying here. My Sigung fed one of his closest students of over 30 years a crock of what exactly??


Joe Lee and I spoke on the phone regarding this. Joe clearly states, Lee Shing said Wong Wah Sam's heir was Fong YM, and, Fong YM was not a Fung. He (Joe Lee) was also clear when he stated to me; Only Fong YM got Wong Wah Sam's real Kung Fu!!! His words, not mine. So it seems Lee Shing fed him a little bit of stuff that makes the grass grow. ;)

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Jim Roselando;1151891]Spencer,



BTW: Yes. Fung Min only taught his son (Fung Daat) and nephew (Fung Ju). He did not casually teach people. This is starting to remind me of the Yip Man-Leung Bik stories to boost seniority except we have more access to family to know what's what! JR
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Silly sniping (Yip Man-Leung Bik) in Jim's guao pedigree game. (VBG).
Not necessary imo in the discussion with Spencer.

joy c

[Jim Roselando]

Spencer,


Where am I coming from? We are discussing Kulo art, history and practitioners correct. Just because some of my info. does not match your story it does not mean I going on some kind of offensive to discredit anyone. All I said was:

I find it hard to believe based on this or that.....

Now. Most on this forum have been around the Chinese community for along time. Those who have been know certain things are common and one thing that is very common is linking to a popular person rather than giving credit to where it deserves to be. If Lee Shing studied with Fung Sang that means he was being taught by someone who was almost TWENTY YEARS YOUNGER THAN HE WAS!!! For many traditionalists that is not something that is ok.

So, is it possible he made up some of his Kulo history? Yes it is possible. Does that mean he didn't care for his long time students??? Absolutely not! That is the possible Crock (his history) I am talking about.......

I do believe he got some training with Fung Sang after the 60's so just because the story and timeline doesn't match it does not mean he did not have some Pin Sun experience.



Peace,
Jim



I am beginning to see where you are coming from Jim.

It may not be beneficial for either of us to continue here because your tone seems to have gone on the offensive for some reason.

I just want to highlight and confirm what you are saying here. My Sigung fed one of his closest students of over 30 years a crock of what exactly??

[Jim Roselando]

Joy,


Silly sniping (Yip Man-Leung Bik) in Jim's guao pedigree game. (VBG).
Not necessary imo in the discussion with Spencer.


***

I disagree. It was the most common example I could think of at the moment!

The Kulo art is very young and retained within a very very small group of people. There is no pedigree game just research being presented/debated. Maybe others have different timelines/dates/etc. from me that they can presented but no doubt the reason I said that was because it was an easy example.

Numerous Yip people say he learned with Leung Bik. Numerous Yip people say that was not true. If some of Yip's people were told one or the other does that mean he (Yip) was not teaching them to the best of his ability or didn't like them????? Of course not. It just means the story may not hold water...........

Peace,

[LoneTiger108]

So, is it possible he made up some of his Kulo history? Yes it is possible. Does that mean he didn't care for his long time students??? Absolutely not! That is the possible Crock (his history) I am talking about.......

I do believe he got some training with Fung Sang after the 60's so just because the story and timeline doesn't match it does not mean he did not have some Pin Sun experience.

Hmmm... I think you are missing a vital point here. Isn't it possible that the whole 'Kulo' and 'Pin Sun' tags are just recent inventions to highlight a different approach to training Wing Chun other than Ip Mans system? Or maybe even something more sinister??!

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/75788_166529683368504_153412808013525_397298_94914 1_n.jpg

This tree is what the entire family use as a reference to our Sigungs past. It was constructed while he was alive too (and even then there was mention of Leung Bik and his brother!) Come to think of it, there's mention of Jee Shim too: aint that a surprise!!?? What I am trying to get at is an earlier version of this exact tree was around before you had even heard the term Kulo Wing Chun.

I will never forget what I myself have researched about Lee Shing, after being a very close student to one of his eldest still alive. And there are others, older than me, that have done MORE (they know who they are!)

I have said before he was not 'students' of the likes of Fung Sang/Jiu Wan/Lok Yiu, they were his peers and martial brothers. And sometimes it is with these guys that you 'really train' your stuff. It was Ip Man that 'formalized' Lee Shings lifetimes work and I will never forget or belittle that because that is the whole reasoning behind Wing Chun arriving in the UK. Fact.

[Jim Roselando]

Spencer,


Thanks for the input.

I'm glad you guys have done some research regarding your lineage and have also speculated about his possible connections. I would only recommend looking into the timelines and maybe actually meeting people from the Kulo lineage. Keep in mind Fung Sang only passed away a few years ago and Fung Min's line is also active! If I was promoting a connection to them I might want to verify that connection. If you do, you will see how the Lee Shing Pin Sun timelines does not make sense.

For me, Lee Shing must have met Fung Sang after the 1963. Especially since Fung Sang didn't start teaching until 1965......... (When he was 25 years old)

Perhaps in the future, as more info surfaces, we can continue this discussion!


Peace,

[LoneTiger108]

I would only recommend looking into the timelines and maybe actually meeting people from the Kulo lineage...

... If I was promoting a connection to them I might want to verify that connection.

Here's the thing. I'm not really promoting any connection with Kulo, it has already been done by Sifu Joe Lee and his students. That's not to say I do not want to visit anyone in Kulo, or take my Sifu, but I would like to see a better promotion of Wing Chun as a whole rather than attempts to derail the whole community (especially the Ip Man collective!) I appreciate what the method contains too, but will always look at it as a treasured 'add-on' rather than a stand alone system that you seem to promote. I can, and never will, understand that logic I'm afraid.

FWIW Someone I recently met had 2 weeks with a well known Kulo Sifu (which one I will not say) in his home learning the 12 hands and corresponding exercises etc. From what I understand he spent some time belittling the 'western' Wing Chun'ers and even said some rather unscrupulous guys in Kulo itself who were also 'getting on the wagon'. My question is if this system is still being taught to only a few close disciples, how can you explain my finding??

I would also like to compare actual curriculums (in Chinese) with the Fungs, just to see if they recognize anything because I believe there will be massive overlaps and similar expressions throughout.

I do have references to Lee Shing visiting the Cho family in Singapore, something that was only confirmed (for me) last year. Even then, he didn't stay long. Simply passing through 'collecting' history and methods of teaching. But the similarities to how I was taught compared to them now is quite alarming!! I think it's what you would call 'Wushu' but I call it Gwok Seurt!!

There is also still exhanges happening between Sifu Goh, his top students and Wing Chun groups in Malaysia, so Lee Shings torch is still burning. In fact I wish I could find the photo of him with all his official certificates behind him on the wall as I'm sure you and your guys could translate the texts!!! We will have to dig it out of the magazine. All I remeber is that they all had Chinas official travel stamps lol!!

As ever, I am always trying to learn more about my roots, but I am slowly learning that THIS place may not be the best place to share my findings. :o

I should have listened more to my own brethren lol!!! But I am a stubborn, spoilt little kid myself so there you are...

[LoneTiger108]

Courtesy of Austin Goh on facebook

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/313687_10150379273480320_650015319_10526276_894966 984_n.jpg

It is a blurry version though and I will still see if a better copy exists... it was printed in the eighties I think and what I first noticed was all the Plum Blossoms!

[Jim Roselando]

Spencer,


This is my Last post regarding Lee Shing. Hopefully I can help explain your latest finding!

Anyone can go to Shaping Town/Kulo and learn some Pin Sun. There are even a few public places there anyone can access. The big question is, Which Twelve & Which Exercises??? Leung Jan's? Somebody else's?

This is why Sifu Fung Sang stated: Those Within The Arts Inner Circle Are Few!

Also, to learn Leung Jan's (or anyones) martial art in two weeks will only result in collecting some stuff with little understanding & development but in today's time where a few weekend seminars here and there is all that is required to be an authority I guess it should be expected even in Kulo.

KFO is a great place to share info and discuss stuff with others. The BIG problem is some of us are so passionate about what we believe, when other info. does not agree with our own we either have to rethink some stuff or look the other way and just go with what feels good. For me, I prefer to go directly to the sources (main players) and combine that with date/timelines. Then, you can come up with a more likely.


Have a good weekend!


Peace,
Jim



***

FWIW Someone I recently met had 2 weeks with a well known Kulo Sifu (which one I will not say) in his home learning the 12 hands and corresponding exercises etc. From what I understand he spent some time belittling the 'western' Wing Chun'ers and even said some rather unscrupulous guys in Kulo itself who were also 'getting on the wagon'. My question is if this system is still being taught to only a few close disciples, how can you explain my finding??


***

[Hendrik]

Spencer,

Do you know when did your group went to Singapore and malaysia? Who did they meet with?

[imperialtaichi]

Com'on guys, it's great to have pride over our lineage, but lets work together to promote WC as a whole, instead of cutting each other down over something that happens previous generations which may not be verifiable anyway?

The important issue is what works, and where it's going to go in the future.

[Vajramusti]

Joy,


Silly sniping (Yip Man-Leung Bik) in Jim's guao pedigree game. (VBG).
Not necessary imo in the discussion with Spencer.


***

I disagree. It was the most common example I could think of at the moment!

The Kulo art is very young and retained within a very very small group of people. There is no pedigree game just research being presented/debated. Maybe others have different timelines/dates/etc. from me that they can presented but no doubt the reason I said that was because it was an easy example.

Numerous Yip people say he learned with Leung Bik. Numerous Yip people say that was not true. If some of Yip's people were told one or the other does that mean he (Yip) was not teaching them to the best of his ability or didn't like them????? Of course not. It just means the story may not hold water...........

Peace,
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

But you are playing a pedigree game Jim.

I enjoy watching Kulo stuff without criticising it or raising pedigree issues.

You can always find an opinion to suit yourself... does not make it history... or a critique of history-remains just an opinion.



joy

[Jim Roselando]

Hey John,


Its just a discussion. There is no animosity towards Spencer or Lee Shing. If you notice I never once said anything about any art being better or worst. :cool:

I happen to love WC and my love is not exclusive to the Kulo art. WC is pretty much all similar IMO. Leung Jan also felt this way! He kept developing his Wing Chun his whole life and was not shy to modify his boxing based on his experience. I also agree with you regarding what works is most important but this was not a discussion about boxing application and more about history. All the names, dates and info was about sharing research to further the level of discussion more than it was a slam session but no doubt we both threw the occasional little poke here and there hahaha.....


Next week its back to work! No more Forum time. :)


Peace,
Jim


Com'on guys, it's great to have pride over our lineage, but lets work together to promote WC as a whole, instead of cutting each other down over something that happens previous generations which may not be verifiable anyway?

The important issue is what works, and where it's going to go in the future.

[Jim Roselando]

Joy,

In a any discussion on any subject we present the info. and let people make their own mind up. Yes. I am presenting info. and stating the sources but never once in any reply I said there were any absolutes and always state:

More or Less Likely, Its Possible, May or May Not etc..

Do I have my own opinions? Of course! Who doesn't? But that doesn't mean I'm trying to re-write history. Sometimes as the years go on, and more and more people continue to share their research, history becomes more clear but sometimes it even becomes more confusing. Take it all with a grain of salt :)

Gotta run.

Jim


But you are playing a pedigree game Jim.

I enjoy watching Kulo stuff without criticising it or raising pedigree issues.

You can always find an opinion to suit yourself... does not make it history... or a critique of history-remains just an opinion.

[chunner]

hi Jim,

who are the top teachers in pin sun today?

[kung fu fighter]

hi Jim,

who are the top teachers in pin sun today?

The best fighter in pien san wing chun is Fung Leung, His skills even surpassed Fung Chun's

[chunner]

thanks kung fu fighter, i have heard of fung keung but not sure if you're referring to him or is there a fung leung as well?

where did u hear about his skills?

[LoneTiger108]

thanks kung fu fighter, i have heard of fung keung but not sure if you're referring to him or is there a fung leung as well?

where did u hear about his skills?

Welcome to the forum chunner!

I think you will find it is Fung Keung (as you mention) but the L & K are next to eachother so it could have been a genuine mistake. But you did ask for the best 'teacher' and was given the best 'fighter'. I doubt that was a mistake too. Just typical response to a simple question imho.


Do you know when did your group went to Singapore and malaysia? Who did they meet with?

Yes I do Hendrik. But please!! They were not 'my' group lol!!

But I have been advised to continue this discussion in private or stop talking altogether. I'm not willing to share anymore I'm afraid :o

[LoneTiger108]

Anyone can go to Shaping Town/Kulo and learn some Pin Sun. There are even a few public places there anyone can access. The big question is, Which Twelve & Which Exercises??? Leung Jan's? Somebody else's?

This is why Sifu Fung Sang stated: Those Within The Arts Inner Circle Are Few!

Forget it now Jim. I should never have used the story in the first place because I somehow knew you would belittle someones efforts to learn this stuff.

Apart from the negatives I mentioned, and in defense of the chap that taught the 12 hands, it was mentioned how gentlemanly and kind he was to the visitor so in short, he was a good honest man just sharing what he knew. Only frustrated by all the 'wannabes' in the village I suspect :rolleyes:

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Chunner,


There are only a few outlets for Pin Sun Wing Chun in the world:

From Sifu Fung Chun's line I can tell you he has a fair amount of pupils that are actively teaching his methods privately. Also, his two sons are teaching in China; Fung Keung and Fung Leung. Fung Keung is his most well known pupil these days with a good reputation as a fighter.

From Sifu Fung Ju's line there are his pupils in Kulo that preserve his first teachers art such as his son Fung Jia Pei and others like Fung Wei Chun, Lao Liu Gen etc.. Sifu Fung Ju also taught very early on but taught the art he learned from his second teacher, Fung Min. This line is preserved in Boston by Mui Wai Hun.

From Fung Sang's line I can tell you there are a number of his pupils teaching in different locations. Fung Ho Chiu was his heir and privately teaches in Hong Kong and the others all work privately.

It is a very small family with only a few outlets for teaching. I recommend looking into the above lines or people connected to them! Making connection with them will also open more doors for you. Most if not all do not have public clubs but can be accessed if someone has is drive to find them.......


Hope this helps.


Peace,
Jim



hi Jim,

who are the top teachers in pin sun today?

[Hendrik]

Welcome to the forum chunner!

I think you will find it is Fung Keung (as you mention) but the L & K are next to eachother so it could have been a genuine mistake. But you did ask for the best 'teacher' and was given the best 'fighter'. I doubt that was a mistake too. Just typical response to a simple question imho.



Yes I do Hendrik. But please!! They were not 'my' group lol!!

But I have been advised to continue this discussion in private or stop talking altogether. I'm not willing to share anymore I'm afraid :o

Thanks. Coud you please pm me?

[kung fu fighter]

thanks kung fu fighter, i have heard of fung keung but not sure if you're referring to him or is there a fung leung as well?


I am referring to Fung Leung, he is Fung Keung Brother in shapin

[chunner]

Hello Chunner,


There are only a few outlets for Pin Sun Wing Chun in the world:

From Sifu Fung Chun's line I can tell you he has a fair amount of pupils that are actively teaching his methods privately. Also, his two sons are teaching in China; Fung Keung and Fung Leung. Fung Keung is his most well known pupil these days with a good reputation as a fighter.

From Sifu Fung Ju's line there are his pupils in Kulo that preserve his first teachers art such as his son Fung Jia Pei and others like Fung Wei Chun, Lao Liu Gen etc.. Sifu Fung Ju also taught very early on but taught the art he learned from his second teacher, Fung Min. This line is preserved in Boston by Mui Wai Hun.

From Fung Sang's line I can tell you there are a number of his pupils teaching in different locations. Fung Ho Chiu was his heir and privately teaches in Hong Kong and the others all work privately.

It is a very small family with only a few outlets for teaching. I recommend looking into the above lines or people connected to them! Making connection with them will also open more doors for you. Most if not all do not have public clubs but can be accessed if someone has is drive to find them.......


Hope this helps.


Peace,
Jim



hi Jim,

who are the top teachers in pin sun today?

Thanks Jim, that's nice of you to share. From what I've read it seems like Fung Chun and Fung Min were both students of Wong Wah Sam? What have your experiences been like between the students of both lines? Any noticeable differences?

[chunner]

I am referring to Fung Leung, he is Fung Keung Brother in shapin

thanks what have you heard about fung keung or fung leung as fighters?

[imperialtaichi]

Thanks Jim, that's nice of you to share. From what I've read it seems like Fung Chun and Fung Min were both students of Wong Wah Sam? What have your experiences been like between the students of both lines? Any noticeable differences?

Another line (our line) Leung Jaan to (2nd son) Leung Zi to Ku Ming to Ku Siu Long to Fung (Wai) Lim. Of course, Fung Lim had connections to Fung family. But our line does not really come down from Wong Wah Sam.

[chunner]

Another line (our line) Leung Jaan to (2nd son) Leung Zi to Ku Ming to Ku Siu Long to Fung (Wai) Lim. Of course, Fung Lim had connections to Fung family. But our line does not really come down from Wong Wah Sam.

Very interesting! it's always fascinating to trace our roots and see where they started.

[Jim Roselando]

Chunner,


The main difference being platform and drills are a bit different. Hand skills are pretty much the same. Both were pupils of Wong Wah Sam but Fung Chun's method has some of his own touches in it.


Hope this helps!


Peace,
Jim






Thanks Jim, that's nice of you to share. From what I've read it seems like Fung Chun and Fung Min were both students of Wong Wah Sam? What have your experiences been like between the students of both lines? Any noticeable differences?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello John,


Another line (our line) Leung Jaan to (2nd son) Leung Zi to Ku Ming to Ku Siu Long to Fung (Wai) Lim. Of course, Fung Lim had connections to Fung family. But our line does not really come down from Wong Wah Sam.

***

I read your info. and want to share some of our family history as I think there is a little confusion or stuff that seems odd. See below:

First, Fung Lim & Ku Siu Lung were two of Wong Wah Sam's eight disciples. Fung Lim was not a pupil of Ku Siu Lung but his son, Fung Sang, was the last pupil of Ku before Ku passed away. Fung Sang studied Pin Sun Wing Chun with Ku for the last three years of his life. This was after being trained in Pin Sun Wing Chun by his father so Ku was his second teacher.

It was Fung Lim who developed the 22 Point system. He taught the art to his son-in-law and some others. All 22 Point lineages can be traced directly to him.


Hope this helps!


Peace,

[imperialtaichi]

Hello John,


Another line (our line) Leung Jaan to (2nd son) Leung Zi to Ku Ming to Ku Siu Long to Fung (Wai) Lim. Of course, Fung Lim had connections to Fung family. But our line does not really come down from Wong Wah Sam.

***

I read your info. and want to share some of our family history as I think there is a little confusion or stuff that seems odd. See below:

First, Fung Lim & Ku Siu Lung were two of Wong Wah Sam's eight disciples. Fung Lim was not a pupil of Ku Siu Lung but his son, Fung Sang, was the last pupil of Ku before Ku passed away. Fung Sang studied Pin Sun Wing Chun with Ku for the last three years of his life. This was after being trained in Pin Sun Wing Chun by his father so Ku was his second teacher.

It was Fung Lim who developed the 22 Point system. He taught the art to his son-in-law and some others. All 22 Point lineages can be traced directly to him.


Hope this helps!


Peace,

Sure, Jim knows best ;)

[GlennR]

Sure, Jim knows best ;)

Ok you two, seeing as you are the Leung Jan experts..... explain my lineage ;)

http://users.tpg.com.au/davidrea/kungfu/tree.html

We may be related!

[Jim Roselando]

Glenn,


Can you tell us more about your systems curriculum and exercises?

What type of single and double Chi Sao platforms are utilized by your lineage?


Thanks,
Jim



Ok you two, seeing as you are the Leung Jan experts..... explain my lineage

http://users.tpg.com.au/davidrea/kungfu/tree.html

[GlennR]

Glenn,


Can you tell us more about your systems curriculum and exercises?

What type of single and double Chi Sao platforms are utilized by your lineage?


Thanks,
Jim



Ok you two, seeing as you are the Leung Jan experts..... explain my lineage

http://users.tpg.com.au/davidrea/kungfu/tree.html

Sure Jim, PM me your email and ill scan and send you a very old curriculum.

The lineage make any sense to you?

[Jim Roselando]

Glenn,

I sent you a PM.

Lineage? Seems pretty common other than a few details.

I really do not know much about your Leung Chun lineage. I do know a few stories of Leung Jan's family (sons/nephews/etc) that are passed down in the Kulo tradition but would rather not discuss them on the forums.

Do you guys have any clips on Youtube?

Gotta run!


Peace,

[GlennR]

Glenn,

I sent you a PM.

Lineage? Seems pretty common other than a few details.

I really do not know much about your Leung Chun lineage. I do know a few stories of Leung Jan's family (sons/nephews/etc) that are passed down in the Kulo tradition but would rather not discuss them on the forums.

Do you guys have any clips on Youtube?

Gotta run!


Peace,


Cool, ill send you the curriculum when i get a chance

[chunner]

Chunner,


The main difference being platform and drills are a bit different. Hand skills are pretty much the same. Both were pupils of Wong Wah Sam but Fung Chun's method has some of his own touches in it.


Hope this helps!


Peace,
Jim






Thanks Jim, that's nice of you to share. From what I've read it seems like Fung Chun and Fung Min were both students of Wong Wah Sam? What have your experiences been like between the students of both lines? Any noticeable differences?

Hi Jim,

Can you comment more on the differences? I respect you may not wish to share specifics, but in general what do u mean by differences in platform, drills? Do you mean a different emphasis or different drills, platform?

And correct me if I'm misunderstanding but is it the case that Fung Min's line is strictly what WWS taught without any touches?

[LoneTiger108]

Ok you two, seeing as you are the Leung Jan experts..... explain my lineage ;)

http://users.tpg.com.au/davidrea/kungfu/tree.html

We may be related!

Now I know I'm not an expert of the LJ lineage thing, but your tree looks very similar in many ways and I didn't know Leung Chun taught a man of the cloth :)

Out of interest, if you're linked to a Fatshan family, have you heard of the great Yiu Choi? he is very rarely mentioned these days...
http://martialartinstitute.com/biographies_2_yui_choi.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMgN5v3d8Tk&feature=related

Thanks for sharing.