Hanging Up My Gloves

[MasterKiller]

Just had an MRI, which shows a herniated disc at C6 (Yellow Arrow) pressing into my spinal column. I also have a bone spur at C5 (Red Arrow), and two other discs that are compressed and slightly extruded at C3 and C4 (Blue Arrows).

The C5 bone spur was likely from a football injury as a kid, which has caused me headaches and stiff necks/shoulders since I was 15 or so. I had an MRI done in 1999 to diagnose this issue. The slightly protruded discs at C3 and C4 are probably a side effect of this injury, as well, though they did not show in the original MRI from 1999.

The C6 herniation, in all likelihood, was caused from my training. I've taken a few hard falls over the years, and had my neck cranked just about every way imaginable.
But I have no idea when it occured, or if it was something that just progressed over time, because I have no symptoms other than the normal neck pain associated with the C5 bone spur.

Regardless of treatment, I've been told by two orthos that I need to quit sparring/rolling. I'm still running classes, but I can only drill lightly. I'm currently researching my treatment options, but at 39, even with surgery, I don't think it's worth trying to get back into fighting shape.

[Fa Xing]

Wow, bummer. :(

[GeneChing]

I've got almost a decade on ya and I seriously feel ya. I have chronic neck issues too - neural foramenal narrowing - diagnosed over half a decade ago. I remember when my Doc was looking at my MRIs, he asked "have you ever been hit in the head or neck?" and I was thinking "too many times to recall actually". It's really changed my philosophy and approach to practice. It's very humbling. But don't quit. In fact, my practice has been my redemption, as I don't take pain meds. I experimented with prescription meds for a few years but nothing worked for me. They just made me spacier than I already was, and that wasn't a good thing, at least not in a functional way (but it was kind of fun for a spell).

It's a this point in your life where form practice really shines.

If you want to talk privately about this, I'm at your disposal.

[David Jamieson]

The bitter reality of omelet making.

eggs must be broken...

Now you can use your kung fu to bring yourself to health as opposed to taking health from another. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I feel your pain bro.
I stopped competing years ago because of the wear and tear on the body, especially my left shoulder and left knee.
Then a few years ago I started to get vertigo spells and was told to NOT spar anymore until they found out what it was.
As things went the veritgo was caused by a combination of inner ear issues and other issues that can't be treated and whenever I get a got shot or my head moves to suddenly, I get a bout of vertigo that KO's me for hours.
When we who have done MA for the "martial" part suddenly lose that part, it gives us a perspective on things that we won't get.
Be grateful that you managed to get some years of competition in because those lessons will be with you always.

[ginosifu]

Sorry to hear this. I had a similar issue 14 years ago that almost retired me from MA completely. I have 2 discs in the same area with chronic arthritis and spur build up. What saved me was "Traction Therapy". Even now I get a flair up once in a while and I go right back to some traction and I am god to go.

Let me know if you want some detailed info on what I did to save my career!

ginosifu

[dirtyrat]

I've got almost a decade on ya and I seriously feel ya. I have chronic neck issues too - neural foramenal narrowing - diagnosed over half a decade ago. I remember when my Doc was looking at my MRIs, he asked "have you ever been hit in the head or neck?" and I was thinking "too many times to recall actually". It's really changed my philosophy and approach to practice. It's very humbling. But don't quit. In fact, my practice has been my redemption, as I don't take pain meds. I experimented with prescription meds for a few years but nothing worked for me. They just made me spacier than I already was, and that wasn't a good thing, at least not in a functional way (but it was kind of fun for a spell).

It's a this point in your life where form practice really shines.

If you want to talk privately about this, I'm at your disposal.

Gene, out of curiousity, how has it changed your approach to practice?

[hskwarrior]

if anyone knows your pain its me bro.....

3 broken bones in my spine with one of them broken in have and pushed into my spinal cord too......sorry to hear that bro

[sanjuro_ronin]

This does lead us to discussing how one DOES keep his fighting edge without being able to fight regularly ( if at all).

[ginosifu]

This does lead us to discussing how one DOES keep his fighting edge without being able to fight regularly ( if at all).

I still spar / San Shou / Shuai Chiao and Wrestle with my students, but not on a daily basis and not full go. Normally I just play around and not really try to so hard... and not as often.

ginosifu

[hskwarrior]

This does lead us to discussing how one DOES keep his fighting edge without being able to fight regularly ( if at all).

one way is to keep up pad work. keep moving. prepare. by now, you should have skills to deal with someone effectively regardless of an injury. the only thing is you have to cut down the time in a confrontation to just the most serious techniques. do what you have to to end the fight quick.

on another aspect, you work to protect your neck in case someone goes for it.

but it all depends on your injuries and to what extent

[sanjuro_ronin]

one way is to keep up pad work. keep moving. prepare. by now, you should have skills to deal with someone effectively regardless of an injury. the only thing is you have to cut down the time in a confrontation to just the most serious techniques. do what you have to to end the fight quick.

on another aspect, you work to protect your neck in case someone goes for it.

but it all depends on your injuries and to what extent

Indeed.
I focus on drills more than anything, tons of bag and pad work and dummy work and developing speed and power into strikes.
The issue for me was timing and that is lost very quickly with lack of sparring and being a counter-striker it was crucial in my game.
I had to readjust and now fight in a different way ( sort of).
The protecting of the head did indeed become crucial and I managed to figure that out too.
Luckly I had years of full contact fighting and training to fall back on.

[GeneChing]

What saved me was "Traction Therapy". Even now I get a flair up once in a while and I go right back to some traction and I am god to go. Traction didn't do much for me. Back when my insurance covered it, I did weekly traction at Kaiser Hospital, and also had a traction rig for at home. My living room used to be a yoga studio (my wife used to teach out of our house) so we have yoga props, including an inversion swing. Hanging inversions helped more than the traction rig, but I haven't been doing that lately. I have a tailored vinyasa, a downward dog sequence that includes handstand, which I do regularly, and that takes care of the inversion. I also have a whale (yoga backbender) which I work daily.


Gene, out of curiousity, how has it changed your approach to practice?
More qigong, much less impact, more time spent warming up and cooling down, plus a lot of therapeutic exercises, yoga and specific conditioning/strengthening routines. The challenge is that I get a lot of reciprocal injuries, which really suck, so it's a lot about being balanced in my regimen.

Here's were kung fu has saved my life. It wasn't in some back alley fending off a mugger, nor was it in the underground complex of Han's island. It's the daily practice. If I skip practice for a few days, my posture collapses and my chronic pain flairs up. I can't stop now, even if I wanted to do so.

[sanjuro_ronin]

More qigong, much less impact, more time spent warming up and cooling down, plus a lot of therapeutic exercises, yoga and specific conditioning routines.

*cough* hippie *cough*

[Hebrew Hammer]

Welcome to Taiji! HSK has a solid point. About a little more than a year ago I was diagnosed with severe degenerative disc issues of my L4 and L5, I was in excruciating pain almost every day and had to quit working out/training for several months.

It's very depressing to hear this kind of info, I was then about 41 and really getting into my training. Up till then felt the best I had in years. After seeing some specialists, I did some physical therapy, acupuncture, took some medication for pain and inflammation. I'm sure they're gonna offer you some surgical options...do your homework, ask lots of questions, and find the best specialist available. To this day, I have sciatic nerve pain on a regular basis and have to take pain meds.

The human body is an amazing thing, given time you'll be surprised at your ability to recover. Eat well, modify your training, go slow.

For me, I went to more of a boxing style training, I am able to do low leg kicks and push kicks but round house, side kicks to the head and torso area just put too much torque on my back. I've found that stationary bike or spin classes are better for me than jogging or stair work...etc.

You will be able to find something that will work for you even in a 'real' environment MK. I work in a Behavioral Ward, where I physically have to move patients defend myself and others against assault...just the other week I used my chin to try and break this guys fist! :D Don't try that one at home.

Looking for some new training in either WC or Tai Chi or both...these are styles that I can modify for my limitations. Like Gene said, feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

PS You'll just have to find another way to roll around with some sailors.

[BakShaolinEC]

that sucks MK, hope everything works out for you. Train smart!

[GeneChing]

*cough* hippie *cough* Hippie and proud. Let your freak flag fly. But I don't do taiji. Weird, huh?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I did Chen Taiji for a bit and loved it ( it was more fight oriented in the training).
Never really though of MA as exercise or for anything other than kicking people in the back of the face.
Until I couldn't do that.
Now I focus on the kungs and such, and the iron wire and core forms.
Still not a fan of the fancy **** though, LOL !
If I was to choose a "IMA" I would probably go back to Chen Taiji.

[GeneChing]

I actually taught taiji for a spell - Yang & Sun. It never really did it for me, although I did enjoy the sword forms. I never did Chen, despite it being my family style. I looked into it, even went to Chenjiaguo, but never found a teacher that fit me.

If you're going to do an IMA, sanjuro_ronin, you should do xingyi. I loved xingyi. I'd still be doing it if Sifu Tony Chen was still in town.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I actually taught taiji for a spell - Yang & Sun. It never really did it for me, although I did enjoy the sword forms. I never did Chen, despite it being my family style. I looked into it, even went to Chenjiaguo, but never found a teacher that fit me.

If you're going to do an IMA, sanjuro_ronin, you should do xingyi. I loved xingyi. I'd still be doing it if Sifu Tony Chen was still in town.

I do love fisting....:D

[Hebrew Hammer]

I do love fisting....:D

You are one sick *******....I love it.

[mickey]

Greetings,

MasterKiller,

The news is sad. Keep going on your path.

Ask your doctor about what you can do to strengthen the muscles around the area for purposes of stabilization.

mickey

[Mike Patterson]

MK,

I have no disc between L4 and L5, degeneration in C4, C5 and C6. Much of this sustained throughout my lifetime of MA according to the docs and some exacerbation via a nasty car accident about 6 years ago.

I am drug free and virtually pain free. I do everything my styles require of me. Still strike, kick, throw, wrestle, pad work, bag work, sparring, etc. I am now 53.

Consider taking up IMA from a good teacher. Through IMA principles, my wife and myself have been able to help countless people with issues worse than both you and myself now suffer... Fibromyalgia, Type 2 Diabetes, Arthritis, Bursitis, Ankylosing Spondylitis, High Blood Pressure, Stroke Rehabilitation, Lower Back Pain, Circulatory Problems, Coordinative Balance issues... to name a few recent ones.

Oftentimes, the body simply needs to be "re-educated" in terms of what learned patterns or daily stressors may be contributory to exacerbation and/or irritation of the issue(s) being experienced.

IMA principles, taught properly, can do exactly this. So at least consider the option. And, as many have already offered, if you would like to talk to me privately you can either IM me here or email me through hsing-i.com and I'll be happy to offer whatever help I can.

[Ray Pina]

Man. Sorry to hear that.

[-N-]

This does lead us to discussing how one DOES keep his fighting edge without being able to fight regularly ( if at all).


one way is to keep up pad work. keep moving. prepare. by now, you should have skills to deal with someone effectively regardless of an injury. the only thing is you have to cut down the time in a confrontation to just the most serious techniques. do what you have to to end the fight quick.


Indeed.
I focus on drills more than anything, tons of bag and pad work and dummy work and developing speed and power into strikes.
The issue for me was timing and that is lost very quickly with lack of sparring and being a counter-striker it was crucial in my game.

Heavy bag for power and conditioning.

Partner drills for coordination and timing.

Plan to end any fights quickly.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I once suffered daily from severe headache. My neck was so stiff It caused the headaches. It got pretty bad at times. It eventually got so bad I was suicidal. I had been to so many doctors that could not find the problem, and one night in emergency a young intern who had at one time studied to be a chiropractor came to my rescue. After years of this pain he noticed a very slight misalignment of the disks. I have since come to realize that it happened in a terrible fight when a rather robust fellow got me in a head lock. I thought he was going to kill me by breaking my neck, and I think it was his very intent. God rest his soul.
The young doc offered to pull out the kink and I went along with it. I have not had a headache since. You might talk to a chiropractor and see what he thinks.

[Brule]

I really haven't heard much good about chiropractors so my initial reaction would be to stay away. There may be excellent ones out there but it just doesn't seem natural to me.

Sucks to be injured and not be able to participate the way you have been used to for a long time. Just take it slow and research your options before jumping in.

At least now you will be able to do kung fu, cause we all know that kung fu is just pretty forms and standing around hugging a tree..:p

[Lee Chiang Po]

I once suffered daily from severe headache. My neck was so stiff It caused the headaches. It got pretty bad at times. It eventually got so bad I was suicidal. I had been to so many doctors that could not find the problem, and one night in emergency a young intern who had at one time studied to be a chiropractor came to my rescue. After years of this pain he noticed a very slight misalignment of the disks. I have since come to realize that it happened in a terrible fight when a rather robust fellow got me in a head lock. I thought he was going to kill me by breaking my neck, and I think it was his very intent. God rest his soul.
The young doc offered to pull out the kink and I went along with it. I have not had a headache since. You might talk to a chiropractor and see what he thinks.

[Subitai]

I do love fisting....:D

Hey No Fair!! Other than Kung Fu...FISHING IS MY THING!!!!

haha..oh wait you said Fisting????


To MK:

I was going to joke and say..."Well time to do Tai Chi now" But they beat me to it.

Train healthy and don't injure yourself anymore...age catches up too quickly. The extra win in the ring isn't worth it when your older and paying the price.

[GeneChing]

Ask your doctor about what you can do to strengthen the muscles around the area for purposes of stabilization.
Chiropractors, like doctors, or any healer for that matter, vary a lot. I went through numerous specialists at Kaiser, as well as PT, acupuncture, TCM and tiedazhang. Nothing. The medical doctors were particularly useless in my case. I eventually found a great chiropractor. The moral of that story is to keep pushing forward, keep searching. Don't give up.

[SIFU RON]

There is some good information here for you . Chiropractic has keep me on my feet since 1975, I still go to them today.

I was injured in 1975 , my spine was shaped like an S, my neck and right leg were both injured.

An Orthopedic Surgeon made a hugh diffence in my case, he sent me to a Hospital as an outpatient for many months. I worked with Physcial Therapists, they taught me how to move properly, they taught me how to strengthen the muscles around the injured areas of my body. They also taught me which Kung Fu moves I could no longer do.

I have always taught Kung Fu and still do, I still do the exercises ( in a gym , no free weights ) and have chiroptractic treatents as needed, If I stop moving I will freeze up.

Keep looking for help, modify your M/A.

My ver best to you

Ron shewmaker

[Matthew]

MK,
Oftentimes, the body simply needs to be "re-educated" in terms of what learned patterns or daily stressors may be contributory to exacerbation and/or irritation of the issue(s) being experienced.

IMA principles, taught properly, can do exactly this. So at least consider the option. And, as many have already offered, if you would like to talk to me privately you can either IM me here or email me through hsing-i.com and I'll be happy to offer whatever help I can.

I'd highly suggest Mike Patterson's suggestions and any others who suggested Taiji or internal practices. I had extensive spinal surgery after a slipped vertebrae, worn disks, and a herniated disk. Still above and below my lumbar spinal surgical spot, the disk are worn in between about 3-5 sets of vertebrae, and some in my neck. I believe the chiropractor (nation renowned chiropractic lecturer) did not help post-surgically for me and put further wear on my disks and caused more pain after 6 months of ~twice monthly treatments. I've heard great things about him and other chiropractors for non-post surgical patients though.

There is a reason for the Chinese saying that no one practices wushu after 30 (years old). This is because of the way it is practiced in modern age and by young people.

In some Chinese schools (of thought) there is a clear divide between two types of martial practice. One is destructive to the body, this is the type that leaves the practitioner out of breath (usually breathing with the lungs heavily), characterized by a harsh speed, practiced as a method of fitness, and relying heavily on muscles and speed to do the movement, and is thus bad for the heart/body long-term and not suitable for the elderly or injured.

I did around 3-4 years worth of varied conventional western treatment, which was not significantly helpful in any way. I can elaborate on this if you want in detail in PM.

I would say my 4 years practice of the aforementioned type of external-muscular, harsher speed based gong fu I did had benefit to me in relieving some pains after my lumbar spinal in the form of stronger legs, better coordination, greater mental focus more than most western treatments did. That being said, I got the best benefit after stopping that type of training and started internal breathing and standing practices, and then moving onto yang and then wu-taiji. I will remain doing stake standing skill, qigong, and taiji until I can learn more some traditional internal-based shaolin practices.

One of the big differences I saw was that internally practiced skills are focused on using the deepest musculature, ligaments, tendons of the body to generate power/balance/coordination.

Through properly coordinated movements (which start very slow and can progress faster if one can properly do them without losing deep breathe, balance, or loss of coordination with the deepest muscle sets), we can learn to listen to our posture at all times and thus rapidly improve our health condition through awareness... that would include martial power generation as well. They are synonymous in terms of awareness of 'internal' structure + movement and apply power. Anything that jolts your spine will jolt your neck (as Neck rests on middle and therefore lower spine). Any impact to your shoulders (hitting heavy bags, being hit, fast jerky movements of form/sparring) will also have repercussions.

If you want to take your health seriously, I would suggest stopping anything that is high impact on your shoulders (such as heavy pad kicking, striking) and anything that stretches of moves your spine in ways that are not fully controlled by you alone (i.e. grappling). Anything that causes impact in your mid or upper spine will likely further agitate your neck's hernia. I have a close friend who slipped a disk in his neck. It took him ~ 1 or 1.5 years to get out of a neck cast fully and about another 2 years to be able to do light-house work. Spinal conditions are not a joke for the one living it!


Living with spinal considerations is just that.
It is not something to ignore, but something to learn to live with. My attitude when I did the external-based style was that I'll push the pain out by doing hours of horse stance-form-sparring-rough training. I did not end up seeing significant improvements in power generation or health benefits until I cut that attitude out of the picture.

[Fa Xing]

I really haven't heard much good about chiropractors so my initial reaction would be to stay away. There may be excellent ones out there but it just doesn't seem natural to me.

That's a weird comment, about it not being natural. I would assume surgery and shoving tons of drugs down people's throats as being more unnatural.

Personally, I would get adjustments all the time after a hard sparring session just because of what it does to my body. Specially after lifting, it helps to release the tension.

[Brule]

I guess that's just my bias coming out. I wasn't advocating drugs or surgery either.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Chiropractors, like doctors, or any healer for that matter, vary a lot. I went through numerous specialists at Kaiser, as well as PT, acupuncture, TCM and tiedazhang. Nothing. The medical doctors were particularly useless in my case. I eventually found a great chiropractor. The moral of that story is to keep pushing forward, keep searching. Don't give up.

This.
I know of too many cases where a bad chriopractor did far worse than doing nothing at all.

[Frost]

I hear you, with a chronic shoulder problem, a wrecked lower back, a knee that doesn’t work properly and an Achilles that is permanently inflamed im seriously wondering if its not time to pack it all in…..

Best thing I can say is if you enjoy teaching then keep doing it and put your energy into that, and pick your rolling training partners wisely.

I have a coach who has had a bad back since he was a teenager (medically disabled for a while) and who cant compete or roll hard very often, still doesn’t stop him turning out some of the best grapplers and MMA fighters in the UK

[GeneChing]

This.
I know of too many cases where a bad chriopractor did far worse than doing nothing at all.
Same goes for bad medical doctors and TCM practitioners. The only thing is that you can sue a bad physician, assuming it's a gross error. You could sue a bad acupuncturist too, but it's harder to prove fault if the issue is just pain management.

[Fa Xing]

This.
I know of too many cases where a bad chriopractor did far worse than doing nothing at all.

What cases?

There are statistically less injuries for Chiropractors (DC's) than MD's; and not to mention that MD's insurance premiums are higher.

Another thing to add, is that a DC's education is just as rigorous as any other medical profession.

[Hebrew Hammer]

My chiropractor did wonders for me, reversing years damaging football impacts that had my neck completely out of alignment. Chiropractors are like martial arts instruction...find one that feel most comfortable with.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What cases?

There are statistically less injuries for Chiropractors (DC's) than MD's; and not to mention that MD's insurance premiums are higher.

Another thing to add, is that a DC's education is just as rigorous as any other medical profession.

I know of one lady that was almost paralysed because of neck manipulation and I know of one guy that need surgery after some lower back manipulation.
Those are people I know personally.
I know of a couple of others but not personally.

[SIFU RON]

An Osteopath is a Medcial Specialist in injuries of the body, they adjust the spine neck, etc as needed.

They are the medical people that helped me overcome and live with the injuries I incurred.

They were called " bone docotors " in the old days . They are very good professionals , they treat all types of injuries and illness and often can do much more than people realize.

[Fa Xing]

I know of one lady that was almost paralysed because of neck manipulation and I know of one guy that need surgery after some lower back manipulation.
Those are people I know personally.
I know of a couple of others but not personally.

That's a few people out of MILLIONS that get adjusted every day. The rate of complications and deaths of cervical neck surgeries are MUCH higher.

Yes, there are bad DC's, but there are also bad MD's practicing medicine that is far more dangerous and ironically far more accepted.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's a few people out of MILLIONS that get adjusted every day. The rate of complications and deaths of cervical neck surgeries are MUCH higher.

Yes, there are bad DC's, but there are also bad MD's practicing medicine that is far more dangerous and ironically far more accepted.

Dude, what we are saying is to be careful and that advice would extend to ANY medical or physical rehab program.

Like Gene said:

Same goes for bad medical doctors and TCM practitioners. The only thing is that you can sue a bad physician, assuming it's a gross error. You could sue a bad acupuncturist too, but it's harder to prove fault if the issue is just pain management.

[Jimbo]

Sorry to hear about this, MK.

I've been dealing with some chronic issues myself which has affected what and how I can train, that started in 2004 but became an issue in 2005 - 2006. I found that medical doctors were pretty useless for this issue.

I am going to overcome this one way or another.

Through having this issue(s), I learned a lot more patience and tolerance/compassion for others. In my younger years, I used to think that people who had chronic issues were somehow weak or copping out. I suspect many young people without chronic issues probably feel that way. Although this has made some things difficult for me, and there's a lot I want to/have yet to do in my life that this currently interferes with, I like the person that I am now much more than who I was in the past. WHEN I am healed and restored, I will continue to carry my improved attitude in life.

[GeneChing]

Now I totally rely on one. It's all a matter of finding a good healer. A good healer, no matter what the discipline, is a true gem.

http://roflrazzi.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/celebrity-pictures-stallone-trust1.jpg
Couldn't resist.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Now I totally rely on one. It's all a matter of finding a good healer. A good healer, no matter what the discipline, is a true gem.

http://roflrazzi.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/celebrity-pictures-stallone-trust1.jpg
Couldn't resist.

ROTFLMAO !!!

And that is the crux of the matter, as with all things, you gotta find a good one.
Just like any other profession, the medical ones has its good, great and butchers.
I have found that people tend to be more picky and unforgiving about their mechanics than their doctors !

[TaichiMantis]

At 51 I'm on this wagon too...degenerative discs at L4, L5, S1; ACL reconstruction last year. Quit kung fu training and am focusing on tai chi and qigong. Still like to slap hands with the young guys, would love to do take downs but am too wary of the knee and back.

I never got to fight full contact, just point sparring. I could probably hold my own in a fight....if it didn't drag on *huff, puff* :D;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are times that going up the stairs my knee gives out or my shoulder is in so much pain I have a hard time putting on a jacket and my wife asks if I am ok and I always say,"Fine".
Of course as we know, "fine" or a MA and "fine" for a normal person is NOT the same thing, LMAO !

[-N-]

At 51 I'm on this wagon too...degenerative discs at L4, L5, S1; ACL reconstruction last year. Quit kung fu training and am focusing on tai chi and qigong. Still like to slap hands with the young guys, would love to do take downs but am too wary of the knee and back.

I never got to fight full contact, just point sparring. I could probably hold my own in a fight....if it didn't drag on *huff, puff* :D;)

Also 51, but most people don't believe me when I tell them.

Been trying to recover from a knee overuse injury for the past year. No other major issues.

I found that heavy bag workouts helped to even out or normalize imbalances in my back muscles. It's also been good cardio/interval training since I can't run right now.

Not ready to cut back on activity. I find that the less activity I take on, the less I'm able to be active, and the more problems I have when I try. Looking at my teacher and his generation, I think that was his problem.

Just need to be more aware of the dramatically slower healing process nowadays.

But like I said, I have to focus on ending things quickly so there's less time to get injured.

[-N-]

I found that heavy bag workouts helped to even out or normalize imbalances in my back muscles. It's also been good cardio/interval training since I can't run right now.

Heavy bag is also good for iron body or kao da type conditioning.

I was in a car accident last month. Rear-ended and spun across the freeway and into the embankment. Car was totalled.

I came out of it with only a very mildly stiff neck which was fine after a couple days. Much less soreness than from a typical workout.

My sihing says that probably the conditioning gave me an advantage.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Maybe we should start an over the hill thread, where we can all complain about our ailing backs and SR could share his wisdom on erectile dysfunction.

[GeneChing]

Here I've been thinking that you're all young fit cage fighters. Now I learn you're all old and broken. :(

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_HXWwg0z4ssk/SwrlE7cxWuI/AAAAAAAAAGQ/oduXsEoBNtg/s1600/KratosChiropractor.jpg

[maxattck]

I am 43, and in the xame boat as the rest of you guys. I have a torn labrium in my right hip my doc tells my most likley will go arthritic some day and need to be replaced. I also have cronic lower back issues. The dam thing kills me all day long getting up from sitting ect. Only time it feels fine is when rolling in bjj, and sparing in koykishin. Starts hurting again soon as I cool off......though of quiting, but what's the point my injuries still hurt when I do nothing, might as well train.

I tried a chiro......a few actually. They never really helped. I stoped going to them when some started telling me they could cure cancer ect with minipulations...........

[-N-]

Starts hurting again soon as I cool off......though of quiting, but what's the point my injuries still hurt when I do nothing, might as well train.

Exactly. Actually, everything hurts more when I reduce my training.

I might be slightly broken, but not as broken as an overweight 37 year old mouse potato snarfing on bacon cheeseburgers, haha.

[Lucas]

http://cdn.screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/snarf.jpg

[-N-]

http://gifsoup.com/download.php?id=2444755&d=animatedgifs7&n=emt-manbite&s=a

[Fa Xing]

Here I've been thinking that you're all young fit cage fighters. Now I learn you're all old and broken. :(

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_HXWwg0z4ssk/SwrlE7cxWuI/AAAAAAAAAGQ/oduXsEoBNtg/s1600/KratosChiropractor.jpg

LOL, any chance I could use that when I start my own office?


Dude, what we are saying is to be careful and that advice would extend to ANY medical or physical rehab program.

I know, and I'm not making this personal or anything, but the Chiropractic profession has had to defend itself for over a century because of the once criminal org AMA.

No harm, no foul.

[Fa Xing]

I'm 29, and dealing with my first chronic injury. I strained my right pec minor lifting weights a year ago, and then it developed into bicipital tendonitis, and now just tendinosis.

It flares up, I stretch and foam roll. Most days it feels good, but can't bench as much as I could before. Oh well.

I learned Taiji over a 7 year period, never really could take it very far in a martial art fashion but it's nice to know it will come in handy in about 20-30 years :D:p.

[-N-]

Here's me, knee brace and punching bag, haha.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/th_N2011.jpg

[YMC]

There are statistically less injuries for Chiropractors (DC's) than MD's; and not to mention that MD's insurance premiums are higher.

Another thing to add, is that a DC's education is just as rigorous as any other medical profession.

Just out of curiosity, where did you get this statistic? What is it comparing? DC manipulations versus say neurosurgery? Does this include all specialties? Just wondering.

[Yum Cha]

Sorry to hear it MK. My how time flies when you're having fun, eh?
Well now you are no longer the oldest young man, but the youngest old man....

Yea, you just have to learn how to do the 'old man' exercises. You're pretty clued in, once you get stabalised, you'll figure it out along your own interests. To me its more about controlling the degeneration than putting it off. Thank God I'm not carrying much worth talking about, couple of ingrown hairs and a hangnail by comparison, but keeping strength, mobility and reflex is the objective of most my training... 54.

Trying to lose the muscle mass and bulk that turns to jelly is a big part of it, you don't see old fat guys. learning the low stress, low impact ways to train.... And saving your fitness for good sessions, and not frittering it on unimportant stuff.

Hot tub is good too....

:D

[IronFist]

Hope you recover soon, man.

[SIFU RON]

Now I totally rely on one. It's all a matter of finding a good healer. A good healer, no matter what the discipline, is a true gem.

http://roflrazzi.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/celebrity-pictures-stallone-trust1.jpg
Couldn't resist.

AWESOME, YOUR A RIOT.:eek:

[SIFU RON]

here i've been thinking that you're all young fit cage fighters. Now i learn you're all old and broken. :(

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_hxwwg0z4ssk/swrle7cxwui/aaaaaaaaagq/oduxseobntg/s1600/kratoschiropractor.jpg

super jell to the rescue :d

[Lebaufist]

There are times that going up the stairs my knee gives out or my shoulder is in so much pain I have a hard time putting on a jacket and my wife asks if I am ok and I always say,"Fine".
Of course as we know, "fine" or a MA and "fine" for a normal person is NOT the same thing, LMAO !Good god, don't I know It. My doctor's idea of normal is just being able to get up and go to the toilet. Not exactly what I wanted to hear.

Oh well, we all pay for the hubris of youth.

[taai gihk yahn]

Just out of curiosity, where did you get this statistic? What is it comparing? DC manipulations versus say neurosurgery? Does this include all specialties? Just wondering.

from a manipulation course manual I took:

"There is considerable evidence for the safety and effectiveness of
manipulation for the treatment of patients with acute low back pain. The risk
of cauda equina syndrome from lumbar manipulation has been estimated to
be on the order of 1 in 100 million manipulations, whereas the risks
associated with nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, the most common
competing drug therapy, is many orders of magnitude higher. Indeed, the
risk of serious gastrointestinal bleeding from nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory
drugs is 1-3 per 1000 and an estimated 76,000 hospitalizations and 7600
deaths (per year) may be attributable to these medications. While there is
concern about the use of thrust techniques in the cervical spine, serious
complications are still extremely rare (estimated to range from 1 per 400,000
to 3-6 per 10 million)."

of course, bef performing cervical manips, you go thru a thorough history of current complaint, past med history, assessment of risk factors and testing to specificaly clear the str of the cervical ligaments and patentcy of arteries of the neck;

as far as MK's MRI, I wouldn't b in a rush to do any cervical thrust given the hx and the MRI (but frankly, he probably has had way more force placed on his neck than what I would ever use in a short lever HVLA manuever); interestingly enough, based on his symtpoms, the MRI doesn't exactly line up, in the sense that it looks like he's got enuf compresision of the cord to cause sum serious neurological symptoms along the C5/6 distribution, which he denies having; but that supports the research that demonstraes that + signs on MRI have an only slightly higher relation to reported sx's than + ones that do not...

[David Jamieson]

Could some traction sessions help with that health guys?

[taai gihk yahn]

Could some traction sessions help with that health guys?

traction can be very useful, but I only do it manually, because that way u can feel all the little twists, turns and reversals that a machine can't account for; u can also add in active resisted movements, go right into a manip or switch to a different technique as needed;

[IronWeasel]

Of course as we know, "fine" or a MA and "fine" for a normal person is NOT the same thing, LMAO !



Lol! I know what you mean. SOME kind of pain is always present from training...

[Fa Xing]

Just out of curiosity, where did you get this statistic? What is it comparing? DC manipulations versus say neurosurgery? Does this include all specialties? Just wondering.

Comparing spinal surgery with spinal manipulation, here are two comparisons that I found, and there are more.


Risk Factors for Complications After Spine Surgery Identified in New Study (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110921093602.htm)

ScienceDaily (Sep. 21, 2011) — In the last 20 years, due to diagnostic and surgical advances, more and more patients have become appropriate candidates for spine surgery, and the number of these procedures performed has risen significantly. While medical experts acknowledge the potential benefits of spine surgery, they also understand that complications can reduce the success in the short and long term.

"Complications following spine surgery may have a substantial impact on the quality of life of patients as well as the outcome of the primary surgical procedure," said orthopaedic surgeon Andrew J. Schoenfeld, MD, one of the authors of a new study recently published in the Journal of Bone and Joint Surgery (JBJS). This study identified several risk factors for a variety of complications and death shortly after spine surgery among men and women across the U.S.

Relatively few studies have explored the impact of factors such as comorbid medical conditions (simultaneously and usually independently existing health problems, including diabetes and cardiovascular conditions), age, body mass index (BMI), and gender on the risk of complications following spine surgery. Most research to date has focused exclusively on wound infection, and few studies have explored other possible complications and death.

"At the present time, the results of this study may represent some of the best available evidence regarding risk factors for complications and mortality following spine surgery," said Dr. Schoenfeld.

Study Details

The study authors evaluated the American College of Surgeons National Surgical Quality Improvement Program (NSQIP) database for the years 2005 to 2008. This database documents preoperative information and postoperative complications and death among patients receiving surgery at participating medical facilities across the United States.

"One of the principle advantages of the NSQIP dataset is that it encompasses patients in selected hospitals from across the United States and includes a variety of spine surgical procedures," said Dr. Schoenfeld.

The study authors identified patients who received one or more spine operations.

From 2005 to 2008, 3,475 spine-surgery patients were registered in the database.
They ranged in age from 16 to 90, and the average age was 55.5.
Fifty-four percent of the patients were men, and 76 percent were Caucasian.
These patients underwent back surgery for conditions such as:
Disc herniation (ruptured or slipped discs, the rubbery cushions between vertebrae);
Spinal stenosis (narrowing of the spinal canal); and
Degenerative disc disease (the progressive deterioration of discs).

Researchers then collected a wide range of demographic information and complications and death that occurred within 30 days after surgery for all the patients. Major complications included deep vein thrombosis (blood clots deep in the legs), sepsis (a life-threatening condition caused by a bacterial infection), deep wound infections, and unplanned return to the operating room. Minor complications included urinary tract infections, pneumonia, and superficial wound infections.

The death rate was .03 percent, (10 out of 3475 patients), while 7.6 percent (263 out of 3475 patients) experienced complications within 30 days after surgery. The preoperative and postoperative data indicated that increasing patient age and surgical wound problems independently increased the risk of death. The data also identified the following independent risk factors for developing one or more complications within this 30-day period:

Older patient age;
Congestive heart failure and/or a history of heart attack;
Preoperative neurological problems;
A history of spinal wound infection;
Use of corticosteroids;
A history of sepsis;
A classification of 3 or higher according to the American Society of Anesthesiologists physical status classification system (a system that evaluates a patient's health status prior to surgery); and
Prolonged surgery times.

People who already have had spine surgery and those considering it should keep the results of this national study in perspective, said Dr. Schoenfeld.

"Our study only documents complications and mortality that occurred within 30 days after surgery. Many studies exist that illustrate the safety and efficacy of spine surgery, and the intent of this work was not to be alarmist. Our goal was to identify medical conditions and other factors that could be addressed prior to surgery in order to further enhance the safety of spine surgery and help achieve the best results for patients. We hope that our findings will allow surgeons, patients, and their families to have a more open dialogue and discussion regarding potential risks prior to surgery."

The American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons (AAOS) suggests that patients considering spinal surgery:

Tell their doctor about any and all infections, no matter how distant or unrelated they might seem;
Schedule an appointment with your primary care provider to be sure your overall health is optimized;
Stop smoking; and
If need be, consider postponing surgery to undertake a fitness or weight control program.

[Fa Xing]

What are the Risk of Chiropractic Neck Treatments? (http://www.chiro.org/chimages/chiropage/cva-1.html)
By William J. Lauretti, DC

Every published study which has estimated the incidence of stroke (CVA) from cervical manipulation has agreed that the risk is 1 to 3 incidents per million treatments. Dvorak, (1) in a survey of 203 practitioners of manual medicine in Switzerland, found a rate of one serious complication per 400,000 cervical manipulations, without any reported deaths, among an estimated 1.5 million cervical manipulations. Jaskoviak (2) reported approximately 5 million cervical manipulations from 1965 to 1980 at The National College of Chiropractic Clinic in Chicago, without a single case of vertebral artery stroke or serious injury.

Henderson and Cassidy (3) performed a survey at the Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College outpatient clinic where more than a half-million treatments were given over a nine-year period, again without serious incident. Eder (4) offered a report of 168,000 cervical manipulations over a 28 year period, again without a single significant complication. After an extensive literature review performed to formulate practice guidelines (5), the authors concurred that "the risk of serious neurological complications [from cervical manipulation] is extremely low, and is approximately one or two per million cervical manipulations." The "one in a million" estimate was echoed in another extensive literature review performed by the RAND corporation (6).

In another survey, based on a computerized registration system in Holland, Patjin (7) found an overall rate of one complication in 518,886 manipulations. A survey done at Stanford University (8), asked every neurologist in California if they saw any neurological complications they thought resulted from chiropractic treatment in 1990-91. Their survey found 55 reported CVAs statewide over that two-year period. During that period there were about 110 million office visits to chiropractors in California, and between 33 and 50 million neck adjustments. Other experts on manipulation (9) have published opinions that the risk of stroke from cervical manipulation is two or three more-or-less serious incidents per million treatments.

In addition to these published studies, data from the National Chiropractic Mutual Insurance Company (NCMIC), which insures over 50 percent of US chiropractors, is also useful for estimating the risk of cervical manipulation. Since chiropractors deliver 80-90 percent of the spinal manipulation performed in the US, and this company insures about one-half of the profession in the US, this malpractice insurer is a good source of statistics on this subject. According to a member of NCMIC Board of Directors (personal communication with Louis Sportelli, DC, Dec. 21, 1994), in the three years of 1991-92-93, NCMIC closed a total of 96 claims for CVA; of this total 61 were closed with payment, and 35 were closed without payment. If one concludes that there was little or no merit to the 35 claims which were closed without payment, this would represent an average of 20 CVA claims per year.

If these NCMIC chiropractors are similar to the national average, they see approximately 120 patient visits per week (10). Curtis and Bove (11) report that rotary adjustments of the cervical spine comprise about 30% of the visits made to chiropractors. Therefore, chiropractors insured by NCMIC each performed some 1800 cervical manipulations in each of those three years. Considering these numbers, we calculate that NCMICs 24,000 DCs perform some 43,000,000 cervical manipulations per year. If this leads to 20 strokes, that's a rate of less than one stroke per 2 million cervical manipulations.

Another study based on malpractice history was done in Canada (12). This study reported there were 13 documented CVAs related to chiropractic care in Canada (with no reported deaths) over a 5 year period. The author estimated there were at least 50,000,000 cervical manipulations performed by Canadian chiropractors during that time period. He concluded that a reasonable estimate of risk is 1 serious neurological complications per 3,000,000 neck manipulations.

Finally, in what might be the best documented study to date, Klougart et al (13). sought to identify the total number of cases of CVAs related to chiropractic manipulation that occurred in Denmark over a ten-year period. They surveyed all members of the Danish Chiropractors' Association, and cross-referenced the members' reports of CVA occurrences with published cases, official complaints and insurance data. Then they estimated the total number of neck manipulations performed by chiropractors over the same time period from the survey responses cross-referenced with insurance reimbursement data. They found five cases of "irreversible CVA after chiropractic treatment" occurred in Denmark between 1978 and 1988, in the course of 6,600,000 cervical spine treatment sessions. They estimated a risk of 1 CVA per 1,320,000 cervical spine treatments sessions, and 1 CVA per 414,000 cervical spine sessions using rotation techniques in the upper cervical spine.

Based upon these studies, the most reasonable estimate of the risk of stroke from cervical manipulation is one-half to two incidents per million manipulations performed. Only a minority of these cases are fatal. About one-third of the cases of stroke following cervical manipulation reported in Terrett's review of 107 cases (14) resolved with mild or no residuals. In a later review, Terrett (15) found a total of 126 cases of vertebrobasilar accidents following manipulation reported in the international literature from 1934-1987, of which 29 cases resulted in death. This yields a mortality rate of 23% among the incidences reported in the literature. While it has been argued that the rate of strokes may be significantly under-reported in the literature, it is probable that the rate of deaths are proportionally over-reported, since it is likely the more serious and impressive cases would be described in the literature. Therefore, a conse! rvat ive estimate of the risk of death from stroke caused by neck manipulation is about one fatality per 4,000,000 neck manipulations.

Risks of Other Common Treatments for Neck Symptoms

For proper perspective, the risks of chiropractic neck treatment should be compared to the risks of other treatments for similar conditions. For example, even the most conservative "conventional" treatment for neck and back pain, prescription of Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs (NSAIDs), may carry a significantly greater risk than manipulation. One study (16) found a 4/10,000 annual mortality rate for NSAID induced ulcers among patients treated for non-rheumatic conditions such as musculoskeletal pain and osteoarthritis; that extrapolates to 3,200 deaths in the US annually.

While it might be argued that the population covered in this study were only patients under long-term NSAID therapy, and that acute use carries far less risk, it is not true that these complications are limited only to chronic NSAID users. Gabriel et al, in a meta-analysis, found short-term NSAID use was actually associated with a much higher rate of GI complications than chronic use (17). They calculated that the odds ratio for adverse GI events associated with NSAID use was 1.92 for more than 3 months of NSAID exposure, but 8.00 for less than 1 month of NSAID exposure.

Less conservative treatments such as neck surgery are also commonly used for conditions very similar to the conditions chiropractors treat using spinal manipulation. There is a 3-4% rate of complication for cervical spine surgery, and 4,000-10,000 deaths per million neck surgeries (18).
Effectiveness of Chiropractic Neck Treatment

Numerous recent studies have found that spinal manipulation provides superior clinical outcomes compared to conventional care for neck and back complaints. Dozens of other studies have shown chiropractic care to be more cost-effective and more preferred by patients than medical care for several conditions.

A comprehensive literature review (6) concluded, "In summary, evidence from the literature supports the conclusion that cervical spine manipulation and/or mobilization may provide at least short-term pain relief and range of motion enhancement for persons with subacute or chronic neck pain." They also concluded, "the literature is sparse but suggests that cervical spine manipulation and/or mobilization may provide short-term relief for some patients with muscle tension (and other nonmigraine) headaches. The evidence for long-term benefit is much less conclusive."

The highest rated, large-scale, randomized trial comparing manipulative therapy to general practitioner management (including NSAIDs) in the treatment of back and neck pain was performed by Koes (19). He found manipulative treatment significantly superior, with the advantages for the group treated with manipulation persisting even at the 12-month follow-up.

More studies are currently underway comparing the effectiveness of cervical manipulation with other treatments for neck pain, headache and related conditions.

Ironically, despite their well-documented risks and widespread use, the evidence supporting the effectiveness of NSAIDs for neck pain is extremely limited. In a recent review of medications used for neck pain, the authors noted that the current standard of accepted practice "may rest on a quagmire of possibly valid, but unproven, treatments" (20). Even though NSAIDs are considered to be a well-established treatment for musculoskeletal pain, in a recent Medline search (1966 to 1996), we were unable to locate even a single randomized, controlled trial examining the use of NSAIDs specifically for neck pain.

This one just deals with the neck but it's pretty apparent about what it says.

[Fa Xing]

as far as MK's MRI, I wouldn't b in a rush to do any cervical thrust given the hx and the MRI (but frankly, he probably has had way more force placed on his neck than what I would ever use in a short lever HVLA manuever); interestingly enough, based on his symtpoms, the MRI doesn't exactly line up, in the sense that it looks like he's got enuf compresision of the cord to cause sum serious neurological symptoms along the C5/6 distribution, which he denies having; but that supports the research that demonstraes that + signs on MRI have an only slightly higher relation to reported sx's than + ones that do not...

I definitely agree with this, right now MK's case is very severe and no good chiro/DO would go in there and give their hardest, and best **** manipulation ever. Actually from Chiropractic standpoint, he would be a good candidate for the Activator Method (http://youtu.be/Zlwc7m_h6_c).

[YMC]

MK: I hope you find someone, from any field, that you feel comfortable with and who offers you symptom relief.

Thanks for your responses Fa Xing and taai gihk yahn: it's more clear to me now that the comparison being made is manipulation versus invasive procedures.

I'm just being lazy now, any studies comparing chiropractic methods versus PT or plain old message in pain/symptom relief?

Taai gihk yahn: You are absolutely right that symptoms and MR appearance do not always line up (although I wonder if its time to revisit those old studies and see how the new crop of neuroradiologist do). In this case, however, MK only provided a sagittal cut. That disc bulge/herniation may just be central, minimally effacing the ventral CSF space without much crowding of the subarticular recesses or resulting in neuroformainal narrowing, and thus few symptoms.

[taai gihk yahn]

I definitely agree with this, right now MK's case is very severe and no good chiro/DO would go in there and give their hardest, and best **** manipulation ever. Actually from Chiropractic standpoint, he would be a good candidate for the Activator Method (http://youtu.be/Zlwc7m_h6_c).
yeh, personally, I'd start w a lot of Counterstrain to chill out all his piszed off tissues and go from there; it's safe, effective, and teaches u to self-manage in terms of finding the ease and working from there; one his pain / inflammation was under ctrl, I'd look to mobilize any hypomobile area from thorax to pelvis that was tight and linked to the cervicals; I'd also mayb consider fluid techniques to the CSF / dural membranes at some point, atho those might actualy be irritating - it depends on how well the system has compensated for the altered dynamics of the c-spine vis a vis the decreased anterior dural space; I'd also look to do sum postural re-ed, depending on how he was loading his cranium on top of the spine;


Taai gihk yahn: You are absolutely right that symptoms and MR appearance do not always line up (although I wonder if its time to revisit those old studies and see how the new crop of neuroradiologist do). In this case, however, MK only provided a sagittal cut. That disc bulge/herniation may just be central, minimally effacing the ventral CSF space without much crowding of the subarticular recesses or resulting in neuroformainal narrowing, and thus few symptoms.
agreed - otherwise, if he was getting central cord compression (which he's not getting any sx's of), he'd know it mighty quickly (as wud the doc examining him);

[ShaolinDan]

Hippie and proud. Let your freak flag fly.

Says the guy who shaved his off. :(

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I feel your pain!!

Well, maybe it's more like I remember mine. I have vertical tears in L4 and L5 I had to learn a whole different way to fight because of that. I did 18 months of hard therapy, but was able to avoid surgery because of it.

After I healed up, I spent a few years hanging out with some tough Kuntao Silat guys. This past year I have been pretty lazy though. Now I am probably going to be shifting my focus to strength, conditioning and health preservation mostly. I need to drop weight and get my energy levels back.

I have been in a weird "Funk" lately, where I can't seem to get myself to work out, but I will play with exercises here and there. I have been doing pushups, and throwing some light weight around, then screwing off on Face book....

I was doing well all summer though. It was when the weather changed that it all went down hill.

[Lebaufist]

Just roll with the punches. If your body is saying slow down, Do so. Give yourself time to figure out your energy leaks, sleep , food etc. Regroup, soldier on.

[KwaiChangCaine]

Just roll with the punches. If your body is saying s
hlow down, Do so. Give yourself time to figure out your energy leaks, sleep , food etc. Regroup, soldier on.

That is, I believe, the right spirit.

[Oso]

This does lead us to discussing how one DOES keep his fighting edge without being able to fight regularly ( if at all).

um. you can't. no practice. no skillz.

sux, MK. sorry, man.

[rogue]

And to sound a little crazy, if you're not fighting why keep your fighting edge?

Hope things work out for you MK.

[David Jamieson]

And to sound a little crazy, if you're not fighting why keep your fighting edge?

Hope things work out for you MK.

UH... the f%*k you been?

[GeneChing]

LOL, any chance I could use that when I start my own office?
It's not mine. I poached it off the web. :o


Says the guy who shaved his off. :(
I'm getting a tribal tattoo next. Gotta be ready for my upcoming cage match. :rolleyes: Seriously now, we discussed my shaving at length (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=977).

[Fa Xing]

It's not mine. I poached it off the web. :o

I won't tell if you don't, ;):D.