Awesome picture

[gfhegel21]

Check it out:
http://www.ufc.tv/Index2.asp

Some of the greatest fighters alive.

I grew up on a diet of Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris. Why can't these guys be just as much of an inspiration to train?

[Martial Joe]

They all have shiney belts...


I like Randy the best..he rules...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[gfhegel21]

The belts are a tad gay.

[joedoe]

Why is this picture so awesome?

Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris were inspirations because they carried themselves well. From what I have seen (and I'll admit I have only really seen how Tito Ortiz carries on) a lot of NHB-type fighters are not exactly community role models.

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You're fu(king up my chi

[gfhegel21]

Tito actually is something of a community role model. He is channeling a lot of attention and effort back into the community where he grew up, and seems well-liked there. A lot of people don't like his ring antics (although the grave digging thing is borrowed from muay thai), including the promoters of the UFC. But what he does in the ring doesn't seem to extend beyond that.

As for the rest of the UFC champions, if you take a look at their bios, I think you will change your mind about them being thuggish or behaving badly.

At any rate, the reason I find them inspiring is because of their degree of dedication, their courage for being willing to test their skills constantly, and their efforts to improve constantly.

I also respect their fighting skills: these men can fight at all ranges (kicking, striking, clinching, grappling, groundfighting, etc.), and do so regularly. They are also smart fighters; playing to their own strengths and attempting to capitalize on their opponents' weaknesses. They possess a combination of skills the likes of which have is very rarely seen.

Their dedication to combat, to me, is the pinnacle of martial virtue, integrating mind and body seamlessly (and publicly).

Their willingness to compete in a forum where they might be knocked out or submitted represents a death of ego that is potent in its implications. With point sparring, or even hard sparring, you get to spare a little of your ego: "well, if it were for real, I would have, could have etc. etc." With full contact and submission, there is no real refuge. Getting knocked out or submitted is a form of death. Conquering fear of this I think is powerful.

[gfhegel21]

Sure, they're not kung fu fighters per se, but similar principles apply in CMA, don't they? Or maybe I'm too influenced by Japanese martial arts.

BTW, I'm not implying that everybody should become NHB fighters. I guess I just think that these guys are warriors in the true sense of the word, and worthy of study by anybody with an interest in martial arts.

The essence of what they do in the octagon, which I think puts the martial in martial arts, has been lost in a lot of martial arts that you will encounter. More important than their mere fighting skills, though, are what I believe are the philosophical implications of that style of combat.

[This message was edited by gfhegel21 on 11-01-01 at 08:12 PM.]

[joedoe]

Fair enough.

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You're fu(king up my chi

[Serpent]

They don't do it to kill their ego by losing! They're desperate to win in as public and well paid an arena as they can find, thereby stoking their already mammoth egos!

Martial virtue indeed! :rolleyes:

[Mr. Nemo]

Everyone I've ever come into contact with that's ever met an NHB ring fighter has consistently said that in person they are the most classy, down to earth people they've ever met. Some of them talk trash in interviews, but in person they are civil and friendly. I believe this is a byproduct of their occupation - ring fighting teaches what's real and what isn't, both in terms of martial arts and attitude, pretty quickly I would imagine.

On a side note, does anyone know what the tattoo on Menne's chest is supposed to be?

[joedoe]

I can see how they could inspire you to train harder and to be a better fighter. That's great.

And I can also accept that in person they may be great people as well.

However, the image they project when they talk trash in interviews and carry on like idiots in the ring is not exactly what I would call a role model image. I would not point to them and tell a child that is the way to behave.

Chuck Norris (and Bruce Lee though some may argue against this) on the other hand always presents a good public face and not only is he an inspiration to train hard but he is a good role model for the young uns.

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You're fu(king up my chi

[taijiquan_student]

"puts the martial in martial arts".

I think, if anything, these days we need to put more of the "art" back in martial arts. I've seen a few UFCs(enough to know what it's like), and though I admit that they are fun to watch sometimes, all I basically see is two guys slugging each other with wild punches and going for the occasional submission on the ground(as with everything, I'm sure there are exceptions). These fighters train for hours upon end, sparring, hitting the bag, doing drills, etc. trying to perfect their timing, endurence, technique, and so on. But when they get in the ring(and just to point out--I don't mean I could do any better) they often revert to wild swinging hooks and the like. There is very very little actual skill in these matches. I saw Dave Menne kick to the head. The other guy ducked, and Menne spun around and fell on his ass(just to point out again--he could kick my ass very easily, I'm sure). Where's the skill? Yeah, it's martial. They're in their trying to kill each other. Yeah, it's entertainment. But I think we have enough "martial" in these kinds of things. People don't have the skill these days to use subtle deflections, control the opponents center, stick and follow with them, develop real skills(and I'm not just talking UFC here). Yeah, these guys are great fighters. GREAT fighters. But that's all I really see. There is a difference between having the skill to pound someone into the floor and having true "gongfu" in an art that you can use to defend yourself without resorting to schoolyard flailing that will also enrich your life and make you more calm.
(Actually, the one place I have seen skill in the UFC is some stuff people do on the ground. I admit there's some good stuff there if you look for it).
Sorry about the rant. I'm really tired.
Respectfully,
--t.s.

"Duifang jing zhi meng ji, wo fang tui zhi ce fang xi zhi."

[gfhegel21]

Good responses.

For sure, MMA guys are not necessarily the best boxers in the world. But, as for people swinging wildly, I don't see it so much. Have you watched the more recent UFCs, since, for instance, around UFC 20? Or, even better, since UFC 30? The sport has evolved a lot from the early days, and the strikers have gotten a lot better.

For instance, did you see the Rizzo-Barnett fight? Not a hell of a lot of wild techniques or wasted motion there. Same for fights like BJ Penn vs. Din Thomas, or Uno vs. Iha. In the Penn-Thomas fight, Thomas overextended a hook, and Penn made him pay for it with a sharp knee right up the middle.

As for Menne falling on his ass, yes, that was embarassing. Menne was embarassed with his performance that night (not just the falling on his ass part), and has said as much. Hey, sometimes it happens (falling after a missed kick), but it's still something that shouldn't happen.

On the other hand, some people may just be reacting to the fact that fighting is messy. I think some people have a sanitized notion of what fighting is supposed to look like, where the hero gets off these devastating combinations of flawless techniques. This is rare to never in actual fights, even with the best strikers.

As far as what these people are like personally, this is largely irrelevant to the point I am making. I am trying to get at some small insights about the psychology of combat. At their level, fighters like these exhibit a tremendous degree of integration between mind and body. Perhaps not every single person in that picture, but you will see flashes of it in all the best fighters. I think if you could study their brainwaves in the midst of these fights it would be very interesting. It's stupid to suggest that they all enter some sort of zen like trance. But the intensity of concentration and focus demanded by their art is surely the heart of what martial arts is all about, at least for me.

I would also disagree that these guys primarily do it for money or ego. Maybe some do, and I'm sure money factors into it, but I don't think ego alone gets you very far unless it's coupled with a desire to excel.

And getting knocked out or submitted in the octagon or ring most certainly can have a major impact one one's ego. The beating Ortiz gave Bohlander a while back put Bohlander out of the sport for years, not because of any physical injuries, but, most people agree, because of the shock of the loss. He thought he was unbeatable, but fighters in MMA learn quickly that everyone is beatable.

On the other hand, tapping does (or should) have similar ramifications. If a guy taps, he's basically saying, "I'm finished; if this were for real I would be maimed or killed." It's coming face to face with your own frailty and mortality. Even if a fighter behaves ungracefully after tapping, people willing to look still see a lesson: "he just submitted, effectively admitting that the other guy could have maimed or killed him, and now he's behaving like an ass. That's irrational, and a show of poor sportsmanship. He has no excuses." Lesson: submission or ko SHOULD be a lesson in humility, even if it isn't always taken that way.

In any event, I think there are lessons in understanding what fighters like these are all about, even if you don't want to compete or be like them.

[This message was edited by gfhegel21 on 11-01-01 at 09:24 PM.]

[Budokan]

I think we can all do better for ourselves than worship a bunch of brutish thugs.

Hot lezzie porn stars. Now there's something I can worship. Oh, yeah.

K. Mark Hoover

[gfhegel21]

Worship? Didn't suggest that. Although the way many people in traditional martial arts relate to their "master" or "grandmaster" or "shihan" or "soke" comes pretty **** close to worship.

Brutish thugs? Whatever. Get over yourself dude.

They're brutish thugs because they actually fight? They're brutish thugs because they hone their skills sharper than a razor's edge? I just don't follow your logic.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

http://www.911wrestlingslam.com/benner5.jpg

where's my beer?

[gfhegel21]

That picture is cool, but not as cool as the one I posted.

[chokeyouout2]

They actually fight!We cant have such disregard for speculation!Wheres my dim mak manual?Where's my chi ballz manual?

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

the ultimate warriors of the new century.

raawwr

http://users.1st.net/abaddon/warrior5.jpg

where's my beer?