Ranged Weapons

[Hebrew Hammer]

I was curious, I've never seen or heard of monks using ranged weapons like the bow or crossbow??? Did they using something else instead?? Why wouldn't they have used it?....it's certainly practical, easy to access, and would be a valuable for food, hunting, or defending a monastery or fighting a military force etc. Anyone have more information on this?

[ShaolinDan]

Monks don't hunt. :)

[Hebrew Hammer]

Monks don't hunt. :)

I thought they were hunting for enlightenment?

[wenshu]

I thought they were hunting for enlightenment?

Monks only hunt chicks.

[David Jamieson]

Some guy wrote a book linking kyudo to zen buddhism.
Buddah was an archer at one point in his life.
Other than that, nope. :)

[bawang]

I was curious, I've never seen or heard of monks using ranged weapons like the bow or crossbow???

and you never heard of any other kung fu style training in bows either. because they dont have forms and forms make money.

[GeneChing]

However, some Shaolin monks practice with throwing weapons. The most common nowadays is needle throwing. Check out To Throw a Needle Through Glass By Chen Xinghua (2005 May/June Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=590)).

[bawang]

archery is not commonly practiced today because there is no way to fake shooting an arrow. you either hit or miss.

there is only one way of shooting a bow, so there are no different styles of archery.

[ShaolinDan]

there is only one way of shooting a bow, so there are no different styles of archery.

Funny. But not true.

[bawang]

there are no different styles of archery. just like there were no styles of musket shooting.

[Hebrew Hammer]

there are no different styles of archery. just like there were no styles of musket shooting.

I'm with Shaolin Dan on this thats like sayin there's no difference in spear or sword techniques...there are different grips, bows, techniques in drawing and I'm sure there are marksmenship styles. Don't tell me the Mongols and Japanese Kyudo styles are the same.

[bawang]

im telling you from history, china doesnt have special bow styles.

archery around the world use the same body mechanics. you are thinking using the chop socky mentality.


shaolin monk soldiers were elite heavy infantry. the army used unskilled mass volley archers. so archery is not a shaolin tradition.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Perhaps we're having two different conversations...I understand what you are implying but I have not until now mentioned firearms, you may in fact be correct there may not have been official Chinese styles or techniques...but different archery techniques do exist. They maybe cultural or regional. Here is a link with some samples:

http://www.talkarchery.co.uk/guides/techniques_used_in_archery.html

Medieval Japanese archery training is different than British Long Bow training.

If you want to talk about the act itself of pulling a trigger of a rifle or hand gun, the motion is the same but there are different techiques for drawing and aiming said weapon....some guns will have differing trigger strengths, how you stand, your breathing, how you center your target, reload the weapon can all vary. The Israelis special forces have a different shooting style than American special forces do...but yes they all have to pull the trigger.

[Hebrew Hammer]

I still find it curious that Shaolin warrior monks would not have trained with ranged weapons other than darts.

[bawang]

bow was restricted to the chinese military and it emphasized uniform technique.
chinese army also relied on low skill mass volley so no specialized styles existed. im not speculating, im speaking from archery manuals and army policy.

[bawang]

I still find it curious that Shaolin warrior monks would not have trained with ranged weapons other than darts.

shaolin monks did not train darts. rope dart is a very recent invention, and mostly for show.

shaolin monks trained archery and horse riding. but there was no specific style. it did not survive to today because theres no forms for them. people today only care about forms.

[Hebrew Hammer]

shaolin monks did not train darts. rope dart is a very recent invention, and mostly for show.

shaolin monks trained archery and horse riding. but there was no specific style. it did not survive to today because theres no forms for them. people today only care about forms.

I could never understand how a rope dart would be used as a serious weapon successfully against other armed opponents. Gene is the one who said they used throwing darts in his article.

So which is it? Monks were allowed to use bows or was it restricted only to the military? Where would one find information about Shaolin Archery or horseback riding? Did they fight mounted?...hehe so to speak.


bow was restricted to the chinese military and it emphasized uniform technique.
chinese army also relied on low skill mass volley so no specialized styles existed. im not speculating, im speaking from archery manuals and army policy.

Now this makes more sense, peasants or commoners were not allowed bows for hunting? So no 'rangers' or Robin Hood types?

[bawang]

So which is it? Monks were allowed to use bows or was it restricted only to the military? Where would one find information about Shaolin Archery or horseback riding? Did they fight mounted?...hehe so to speak.

monk soldiers were part of the military. shaolin encyclopedia mentions monk yue kong or yue something training horse riding and archery. monks did not fight mounted. they were heavy infantry



Now this makes more sense, peasants or commoners were not allowed bows for hunting? so no 'rangers' or Robin Hood types?
no composite bows

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree with Schlongwang.
Chinese archery was, much like the Hun and Mongolian archery, basically a military thing and was uniform.
Japanese arcchery was uniform too ( regardless of the ryu) and was distinct on two main points:
The shape of the bow due to using it on horse back.
The inside hold as opposed to the outside one of most other archery systems.

[wenshu]

The wikipedia article is pretty well sourced and doesn't support the view that it was uniform and purely military.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_archery

http://www.atarn.org/chinese/cn_arc_indx.htm
http://www.atarn.org/chinese/wbyl.gif


This picture illustrates a military and civil examination standard position which was popular in the Ming and Qing Dynasties. The stiff extension of the forward leg was a fashion of the time, and was criticised by some contemporary and later writers. In Chinese archery, there is always a basic presumption of right-handedness: but the ability to shoot with either hand was regarded as a special level of skill. The Chinese labels (to which I have added reference numbers) read as follows:


Qi Ji Guang;
http://www.atarn.org/chinese/q_j_g.pdf

[sanjuro_ronin]

Excellent article Wenshu.

[Hebrew Hammer]

I agree with Schlongwang.


Please don't call me by my Chinese Porn name...you may have just combined Yiddish and Chinese.

[GeneChing]

...then there's no difference in fighting styles. Now, that's a viable argument - sort of a 'punch is just a punch' sort of thing, but it's a very bland way to view the world. As for archery, the most distinct difference with Chinese bows is the thumb release. Chinese archery uses thumb rings.

We've run some articles on it:
The Missing Link: Archery in China By Tim Louie (2007 March/April (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=693))
Martial Archery: Targeting an Ancient Chinese Tradition By Michael Lizarraga (January/February 2012 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1016) ON STANDS NOW)

We also have a thread on it:
Chinese Archery-lost martial art (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37406)


I could never understand how a rope dart would be used as a serious weapon successfully against other armed opponents. Gene is the one who said they used throwing darts in his article.Wait now, I brought up needles, not rope darts (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvdk-dk001.html). As for the darts, just like with any form, you need to get past the form. On it's simplest level, a form is just a collection of techniques. One of my good kung fu brothers plays rope dart. He can do a lot of the tricks, but he doesn't know a form. He can also stick a dart deep into a tree at ten to twenty feet. Mind you, he uses a sharp heavy dart. Most people have only seen wushu rope darts, not the actual weapon, so it's a lot like seeing wushu swords (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-66cwu.html) or glitter chucks (http://www.martialartsmart.com/50-41.html) and thinking they are the real thing.


Please don't call me by my Chinese Porn name...you may have just combined Yiddish and Chinese.
Hold the phone. I thought Hebrew Hammer WAS your porn name.

[bawang]

The wikipedia article is pretty well sourced and doesn't support the view that it was uniform and purely military.


the army disagreed with ritualistic archery and unified shooting methods. it even says it in the article you posted.

if you change grip or draw thats personal preference. it makes no difference. thats like saying i like to stand a little narower in my gongbu, now i have a new style.

[Hebrew Hammer]

...then there's no difference in fighting styles. Now, that's a viable argument - sort of a 'punch is just a punch' sort of thing, but it's a very bland way to view the world. As for archery, the most distinct difference with Chinese bows is the thumb release. Chinese archery uses thumb rings.


Hold the phone. I thought Hebrew Hammer WAS your porn name.

Indeed it is...my reputation precedes me Mr Ching...how do you say 'Hammer' in Chinese?

I would then be Kaifeng...

[GeneChing]

鎚 = hammer

I came up with 希伯来语 for Hebrew via babelfish. :p

[bawang]

...then there's no difference in fighting styles. Now, that's a viable argument - sort of a 'punch is just a punch' sort of thing, but it's a very bland way to view the world. As for archery, the most distinct difference with Chinese bows is the thumb release. Chinese archery uses thumb rings.


you cant say what isnt there is there. in the past chinese people never referred to specific "styles" of archery. its just called archery. peope recognized many different boxing and weapon styles but not archery. because its very simple to shoot a bow. swords and spears need position and timing so styles mattered.

thumb draw comes from turks.

[David Jamieson]

you cant say what isnt there is there. in the past chinese people never referred to specific "styles" of archery. its just called archery. peope recognized many different boxing and weapon styles but not archery. because its very simple to shoot a bow.

thumb draw comes from turks.

Crossbow, shortbow, longbow. All archery weapons, all completely different ways of using them.

But then, it wasn't he Chinese or even the Japanese that advanced archery to it's zenith. That would be the english with their long bows and bodkin arrows (by the way, some of these were shot by two men, or a man lying down or standing on a hold etc.) So, yes there are archery styles.

Ever heard of a Parthion shot? Another style of bow use courtesy of Scythians who would get their attackers to pursue them, then shoot backwards from their horses as they played goose chase.

Kyudo, japanese archery, is highly stylized. Not even close to what say, Olympic archery looks like.

Fast shooting, quiver pulls, set quivers, etc etc, all these are style nodes for archery.

I think your going to need to admit you're wrong here Bawang. there are plenty of style differences in archery.

[bawang]

i was talking about china. there is no wang family five animal bow shooting.

[GeneChing]

you cant say what isnt there is there. in the past chinese people never referred to specific "styles" of archery. its just called archery. peope recognized many different boxing and weapon styles but not archery. because its very simple to shoot a bow. swords and spears need position and timing so styles mattered.

thumb draw comes from turks.
It's as simple to shoot a bow as it is to throw a punch. Ever done either? :p

[bawang]

its because i shot bows im saying this. you guys have compulsive need to make everything into styles. sometimes it gets rediculous and dont make sense.

bow depends on personal ability. but bad boxing or sword style gets you killed no matter how hard you practice.

[wenshu]

you cant say what isnt there is there. in the past chinese people never referred to specific "styles" of archery. its just called archery. peope recognized many different boxing and weapon styles but not archery. because its very simple to shoot a bow. swords and spears need position and timing so styles mattered.

thumb draw comes from turks.

I see the validity of both arguments here. The question of seemingly minute details representing stylistic divergence or not is far beyond the scope of just archery.


Archery Categories
In ancient China, archery techniques were divided into Han archery and Hu archery. Han archery means the original Chinese archery; Hu archery means the archery techniques from other nationalities living in the west region of China. Also archery can be divided as ground archery and horse back archery. Furthermore, Chinese archery can be categorized according to the bow and arrow production, etiquette, related customs, and the contest rules. During ancient ages, Chinese regimes regularly held archery competitions with peripheral nationalities. Most of these competitions were proceeded between deliberately selected players, so they were also political and cultural events other than athletic competitions. These multinational interactions of archery technique were finally integrated during the Qing Dynasty, shaping out the complete and mature form of Chinese archery; it is a perfect amalgamation of multinational archery traditions and techniques, mainly originated from Han nationality and Hu nationalities. Thanks to the better official military examination system adapted by the Qing Dynasty, in which archery was one of the required exam items, Chinese archery finished its final formation and dissemination in public. In order to get an official post, many young people tried to study archery, and its rigorous discipline and physical requests fostered the birth of numerous archery schools and teachers. Local governments and rich people frequently held archery tests or even set bounty for people to compete in archery skills, they became the most popular sport culture phenomenon in the Qing Dynasty, and also these activities could be seen as a rude form of athletic games. Because of the multinational interactions, and the cultural differences generated among various regions, Chinese archery also produced out some other archery related activities, such as crossbow, slingshot, Touhu, willow shooting, bow pulling, etc. Some of these games were nearly as old as the bow itself, such as slingshot. Some were born in Southern China, later brought to other regions of China, such as crossbow. Some were created by different nationalities other than Chinese and popular among nobles, such as willow shooting.

http://www.isdy.net/pdf/eng/2.pdf

[wenshu]

Ever heard of a Parthion shot? Another style of bow use courtesy of Scythians who would get their attackers to pursue them, then shoot backwards from their horses as they played goose chase.


http://www.atarn.org/chinese/scythian_bows.htm

http://www.atarn.org/chinese/Urumqi/urum_ill/ltr_no5.jpg
http://www.atarn.org/chinese/Urumqi/urum_ill/ltr_no3.jpg



Stephen Selby examined several bows in Urumqi that were of various designs and from several periods. One type of great significance to the history of archery was very similar to bows familiar in the West from Greek, Persian and Scythian [i] art.

In outline, the bow looks like the Classical Cupid’s bow of Greek and Roman art. This is not an accident. Despite being found in the modern confines of China, this bow represents a survival of the ancient Scythian bow, which was used from Italy in the west to the north of China in the east. Roman armies might have carried them even further west. Remains of later Roman archery equipment have been found in Britain, both grip scales and laths for the ears. However, the Scythian bow would leave no telltale laths in the archaeological records. Even in the heartland of the Scythians, modern Russia and the Ukraine, very few identifiable remains of bows remain.

[bawang]

I see the validity of both arguments here. The question of seemingly minute details representing stylistic divergence or not is far beyond the scope of just archery.



some chinese martial arts is distinct from other cultures. some are not.

chinese boxing is distinct. chinese spear fighting is distinct. chinese horse lance and saber comes from mongols. chinese archery is identical to mongolian archery. it uses same grips and same draw and same feet arm position.

you guys are thinking there HAS to be this. there MUST be that. you guys want to speculate on fantasy history.

[Hebrew Hammer]

鎚 = hammer

I came up with 希伯来语 for Hebrew via babelfish. :p

Kaifeng Chui...now that has a nice ring to it.

In case you never saw my movie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx0WauS9Sus

[GeneChing]

you guys are thinking there HAS to be this. there MUST be that. you guys want to speculate on fantasy history. You got it all wrong, bawang. We don't really want to speculate about history. We just want to troll you.

Nice posts, wenshu!

[wenshu]

you guys are thinking there HAS to be this. there MUST be that. you guys want to speculate on fantasy history.

Pump your brakes mang.

you guys? what do you mean "you guys"?

Do not make the mistake of thinking for one second that your prejudice gives you license to speculate on what I think must and has to be.

[bawang]

im gonna go watch some prison rape documentaries to release my anger.

[wenshu]

http://l.yimg.com/eb/ymv/us/img/hv/photo/movie_pix/paramount_pictures/the_longest_yard/tracy_morgan/yard1.jpg

[Hebrew Hammer]

some chinese martial arts is distinct from other cultures. some are not.

chinese boxing is distinct. chinese spear fighting is distinct. chinese horse lance and saber comes from mongols. chinese archery is identical to mongolian archery. it uses same grips and same draw and same feet arm position.

you guys are thinking there HAS to be this. there MUST be that. you guys want to speculate on fantasy history.

Actually much history is indeed fantasy...it's usually written by a one sided view of the victor.




Nice posts, wenshu!

Agreed!


im gonna go watch some prison rape documentaries to release my anger.

LOLOLOL As long as I get top bunk.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Archery in the west is at a whole other level:
http://www.uncoached.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Sexy_Archery_1.jpg

http://www.rock107.ca/morningshow/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/sexy-archery-girls-17.jpg

http://hellinahandbasket.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/upper-body-strength-for-archery.jpg

[Lucas]

im kind of split on this one, but leaning towards bawang.... i would say there are differing methods of archery based on the development of the tools used. a different style would be having two completely different ways of using the exact same bow.

such as we have different ways of using the human body in boxing styles. or look at the sword. you can have the exact same blade used differently from style to style.

but it is the methods that are required to use each tool that is different.

with the exception of kyodo, i see archery as more a form of science of skill. very similar to modern firearms. some people can lead the shot some people cannot.

i would hazard to say that in kyodo's world its all a mental game more than a phsyical style, thats zen in action there. in the onset of kyodo even accuracy is not the most important part, but being one with the arrow and target is the profound difference. eventually accuracy will meet through zen.

for instance, when you look at a line of archers, in any army, they are all uniform. if there were many different styles with the same tools, this wouldnt be the case.

[ShaolinDan]

archery is not commonly practiced today because there is no way to fake shooting an arrow. you either hit or miss.

there is only one way of shooting a bow, so there are no different styles of archery.

This is Bawang's original post about archery. If now he wants to change it to ancient chinese military archery, let him...but I wouldn't have disputed that in the first place. ('cause I don't know a **** thing about ancient chinese military archery. :) )

[ShaolinDan]

Sanjuro,
Those posts are in serious contradiction with the whole story about Amazon women and their archery. Personally I think adding breast is just as gross as subtracting breast...I'm a natural man. :)

[YouKnowWho]

there are no different styles of archery. just like there were no styles of musket shooting.

Just wait until our "internal" friend to jump in, he will tell you that there is "internal" way of musket shooting and there is "external" way of musket shooting.

[Drake]

Man, as much as I hate to stir the pot... nah...I love it...

There really are multiple ways and techniques to shoot a rifle...

[ShaolinDan]

Man, as much as I hate to stir the pot... nah...I love it...

There really are multiple ways and techniques to shoot a rifle...

No sh*t. :)

[YouKnowWho]

Man, as much as I hate to stir the pot... nah...I love it...

There really are multiple ways and techniques to shoot a rifle...

Most people hold their hand gun vertical. I was taught to hold it in a 45 degree angle. This way, I will never shot my own foot.

[ShaolinDan]

I'm scared sh*t of guns...hit myself too many times with my staff, and cut myself too many times with my little tin foil wushu sword to trust myself with a gun...which is why I like archery. :)

[Drake]

Most people hold their hand gun vertical. I was taught to hold it in a 45 degree angle. This way, I will never shot my own foot.

At the range we call that "up and downrange". When on patrol or clearing rooms... nah... have to keep it oriented downward... too much change of a ND hitting your buddy or killing a civilian...

[wenshu]

This is Bawang's original post about archery. If now he wants to change it to ancient chinese military archery, let him...but I wouldn't have disputed that in the first place. ('cause I don't know a **** thing about ancient chinese military archery. :) )

I think his point was that in the ancient Chinese worldview there was no distinction made between different styles of archery. I agree with him as he tends to know his **** about that kind of stuff.

I also think the outside perspective is valid that differentiates "styles" of archery based on categories such as the culture in which it originated (or was borrowed from), purpose, equipment and technique.

[Brule]

At the range we call that "up and downrange". When on patrol or clearing rooms... nah... have to keep it oriented downward... too much change of a ND hitting your buddy or killing a civilian...

I was taught to hold your pistol parallel to the ground with a loose wrist, this way the kick back is minimal and absorbed by your elbow and shoulder.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Man, as much as I hate to stir the pot... nah...I love it...

There really are multiple ways and techniques to shoot a rifle...

Only for grunts.
:D

[ShaolinDiva]

ROTFL!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!! You guys really crack me up and I'm a girl! Am I the only girl who reads around here Mr. Gene? seems like it ! But freaking shyt is funny!

Back to range weapons.... yes, actually Shaolin did train weapons back in the day. Qing dynasty ..... around 1900s or a little later... can't remember without doing the research .... Shaolin was considered "top" of the military for the emperor ... they couldn't win wars with bare hands and/or bows/arrows - Shaolin was required to train in weapons.

From what I heard, they still have armed weapons at Shaolin in China .... but what do I know , I'm just a dumb girl. :rolleyes:

[Hebrew Hammer]

Ok who let the chick into the tree fort?? Now we're gonna have make up a secret password: Bawang...in Tagalog it means Hamster *****.

[ShaolinDan]

ROTFL!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!! You guys really crack me up and I'm a girl! Am I the only girl who reads around here Mr. Gene? seems like it ! But freaking shyt is funny!

Back to range weapons.... yes, actually Shaolin did train weapons back in the day. Qing dynasty ..... around 1900s or a little later... can't remember without doing the research .... Shaolin was considered "top" of the military for the emperor ... they couldn't win wars with bare hands and/or bows/arrows - Shaolin was required to train in weapons.

From what I heard, they still have armed weapons at Shaolin in China .... but what do I know , I'm just a dumb girl. :rolleyes:

You're saying the monks train with guns, or am I misunderstanding?

[ShaolinDiva]

You're saying the monks train with guns, or am I misunderstanding?


What cha' talkin' 'bout Willis?? :eek:

[ShaolinDiva]

Ok who let the chick into the tree fort?? Now we're gonna have make up a secret password: Bawang...in Tagalog it means Hamster *****.

Tagalog?? I ain't Philipina! How about "Putang in a mo" !! That's a great password for ya! :D

[GeneChing]

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/s320x320/224195_121609234584825_100002072487834_180480_1211 392_n.jpg
A pose form shaolin archery form....performed by a shaolin chick! :p

Can I get a FTW?!

[ShaolinDiva]

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/s320x320/224195_121609234584825_100002072487834_180480_1211 392_n.jpg
A pose form shaolin archery form....performed by a shaolin chick! :p

Can I get a FTW?!



Hey, I can do that ! I got precision accuracy . All thanks to Shaolin training by monks . They taught me to use my Qi to release and fire my arrow to your bow. :rolleyes:

The monks called the form: Da Hong Quan :D

[Lebaufist]

That would surely confuse any enemy.

[ShaolinDan]

What cha' talkin' 'bout Willis?? :eek:

Same right back at you. I don't understand your post at all...unless you have confused 'ranged' (i.e. thrown/projectile) weapons with a range (i.e. variety) of weapons. ??