When a Bagua guy fights a WC guy

[YouKnowWho]

What will happen when a Bagua guy fights a WC guy?

Please comment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io_qLYs8Ocw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h-gev8goEI&feature=related

[Lucas]

they will grapple and gnp :eek:

[bawang]

dirty wing chun.

[Chadderz]

That was embarrassing to watch :/

[Robinhood]

They just fight by whatever engrained reactions are most dominate, which judging by the fight was not either style, and the most aggressive stronger fighter wins.

That's sport fighting.

[YouKnowWho]

The interest thing about that WC fight was his opponent studied him in great detail and he didn't even notice it. Is there a such thing that you should hide how you are going to fight before the fighting start? If the WC guy was smart, he should jump up and down like everybody else and suddently moved in and take his opponent's head off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_x2rqKc&feature=player_embedded

[Vajramusti]

What will happen when a Bagua guy fights a WC guy?

Please comment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io_qLYs8Ocw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h-gev8goEI&feature=related
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Silly straw man comparisons.I didn't see any wc- just some poor chap with a hand overextended.
Why do you make these silly comparisons?

[ShaolinDan]

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Silly straw man comparisons.I didn't see any wc- just some poor chap with a hand overextended.
Why do you make these silly comparisons?

I wondered that until his last post. Apparently he was trying to illustrate a point about the art of war.

[YouKnowWho]

Why do you make these silly comparisons?
Sometime we could learn from good fight. Sometime we could learn from bad fight as well. I don't care about the fighting result. There is always a winner and there is always a loser. But not knowing why you lose could be a problem.

How to

- hide your style,
- study your opponent,

before the fight could have some interesting discussion.

The Bagua circle walking fight style also has some weakness.

[ShaolinDan]

See? Told ya so. :p

[Vajramusti]

See? Told ya so. :p
---------------------------------------------------------------
yup-he gets bored when not lecturing.

[YouKnowWho]

---------------------------------------------------------------
yup-he gets bored when not lecturing.

- I started this thread as "Please comment."
- You asked me, "Why do you make these silly comparisons?"
- I give your my reason, "... could have some interesting discussion."
- You then say that I'm "lecturing".

Will it be better if I just ignore your question and not answer your question at all? :confused:

If I started a thread as "lecturing", Instead of saying, "Please comment", I will say, "Just shut up and listen". But I will never do that.

[-N-]

What will happen when a Bagua guy fights a WC guy?

Please comment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io_qLYs8Ocw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h-gev8goEI&feature=related

Those guys were fighting?

[fan]

this is a reasonable discussion. the wing chun fighter was an inexperienced last minute replacement when another fighter pulled out. the other fighter was a much more experienced mma fighter. though the wing chun fighter did not win, kudos for 1) stepping into the ring 2) fighting using what he knows of his art.

[omarthefish]

The interest thing about that WC fight was his opponent studied him in great detail and he didn't even notice it. Is there a such thing that you should hide how you are going to fight before the fighting start? If the WC guy was smart, he should jump up and down like everybody else and suddently moved in and take his opponent's head off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_x2rqKc&feature=player_embedded
Yeah. I missed that comment the last time you posted too.

That was interesting. I know this one guy who's form looks really good. Even looks powerful and all that but he can't fight at all. The problem with his fighting is, IMO, the same as with his form. His intent is all on what he is doing and not enough on what the other guy is doing. That's sort of what I saw in this fight clip you posted. The WC guy had a very clear idea how he was going to fight. The other guy also had a very clear idea how the WC guy was gonna fight. :D

Sadly, for the WC guy, that flow of information only went one direction.

[Dragonzbane76]

They just fight by whatever engrained reactions are most dominate, which judging by the fight was not either style, and the most aggressive stronger fighter wins.


That's sport fighting.



Thats all fighting not just sport fighting.

First vid looked like the typical cage fight. One guy was stupid for staying rooted, he paid for it with a take down.
Second vid was a sparring match it looked like. Some back and forth not much special. I only watched a minute or so of it though.

[Egg fu young]

I liked the second clip because they were more evenly matched. It would suck to train for a fight like the first clip and have it over in 5 seconds! Win or lose.

[YouKnowWho]

I liked the second clip because they were more evenly matched. It would suck to train for a fight like the first clip and have it over in 5 seconds! Win or lose.
Agree that we are not talking about win or lose here. If we put the whole earth population in a ring, there will only be one winner. After that winner dies, the earth will fill with all losers. It's the combat strategy that's more interest to discuss here.

Those 2 clips show 2 complete different styles. The WC guys tried to stand in solid stance and wait for his opponent to come in. The Bagua guy moved around and force his opponent to move with him. It's not hard to see that the Bagua guy was leading the fight.

Old saying said, "Even if you don't have plan, you should still move around and never stop. During your moving, you will find opportunity to attack." This old saying had brought the meaning of "footwork" to a different level. It's not just how to response to your opponent but how to force your opponent to response to you.

[ShaolinDan]

The WC guys tried to stand in solid stance and wait for his opponent to come in. The Bagua guy moved around and force his opponent to move with him. It's not hard to see that the Bagua guy was leading the fight.

Old saying said, "Even if you don't have plan, you should still move around and never stop. During your moving, you will find opportunity to attack." This old saying had brought the meaning of "footwork" to a different level. It's not just how to response to your opponent but how to force your opponent to response to you.


Are we watching different clips? The WC guy runs right into it.

[YouKnowWho]

Are we watching different clips? The WC guy runs right into it.

You are right. He did run into it. He gave me impression that he didn't move much.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What will happen when a Bagua guy fights a WC guy?

Please comment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io_qLYs8Ocw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h-gev8goEI&feature=related

The better fighter will win.

My view on the "extended bridge":
I've used it a few times effectively.
It is an invitation to the opponent, you do NOT charge with it ( you do not charge with WC at all as a matter of fact).
It cuts ONE line of attack from your opponent causing him to either go around it, over it or under it ( going through it gets him nailed).
It serves its purpose and CAN work really well.
A friend of mine asked me how I made it work when we did free sparring and I said I made it work because:
I hit very hard (which I do)
I have a strategy to go with it.

[Frost]

What will happen when a Bagua guy fights a WC guy?

Please comment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io_qLYs8Ocw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h-gev8goEI&feature=related

comment????? the guy in the first clip had good shoulder endurance to keep his hands up so long, shame his fighting s*cked, second clip was almost as bad at least the first clip was an actual fight second just looked like sparring, and the question is moot because as everyone knows if the two actually met which ever fighter lost would be doing a bad representation of his art and not doing it correctly so theres no point in talking about how the fight would go :rolleyes:

[ginosifu]

YouKnowWho:

Please don't get upset but we going round and round over the same stupid stuff. There was no WC or Bagua, there was only sports martial arts. One guy came unprepared and got tossed on his a$$.

MMA or other Sports MA events such as these produce some great fights sometimes and then others they produce crappy stuff like the first vid (BTW it was soo bad I did not even watch the second vid).

Sometimes you will see good fighters bring bits of their style into the ring. Mostly everyone adheres to Sports MA rules and that changes how you will train for that fight. A lot of people dump their TCMA and just do the San Shou or BJJ or MMA route.

Please everyone quit harping on WC or TCMA or creating stupid threads like WC VS Bagua. It is a waste of everyone time.

ginosifu

[sanjuro_ronin]

YouKnowWho:

Please don't get upset but we going round and round over the same stupid stuff. There was no WC or Bagua, there was only sports martial arts. One guy came unprepared and got tossed on his a$$.

MMA or other Sports MA events such as these produce some great fights sometimes and then others they produce crappy stuff like the first vid (BTW it was soo bad I did not even watch the second vid).

Sometimes you will see good fighters bring bits of their style into the ring. Mostly everyone adheres to Sports MA rules and that changes how you will train for that fight. A lot of people dump their TCMA and just do the San Shou or BJJ or MMA route.

Please everyone quit harping on WC or TCMA or creating stupid threads like WC VS Bagua. It is a waste of everyone time.

ginosifu

Perhaps the question then should be why do SOME TCMA NOT work in the sport environment when other systems do?
Doesn't that make them inferior?
An art that doesn't work under controlled circumstances doesn't hold much hope under uncontrolled ones.

[Drake]

I hit very hard (which I do)

Funny how much of a difference that makes...

[Crosshandz]

Are we watching different clips? The WC guy runs right into it.

That was my first thought. The fight was bizarre. Pre-bell the Wing Chun player holds a rigid goat stance for minutes and then as soon as the bell goes he tosses that out of the window and goes charging in. Anyone with any sort of grappling knowledge would've taken him down. I watched it and wondered what on earth was the point of all that showiness if the second the fighting starts you abandon your form completely. This is without getting into the question of whether or not standing in a goat stance before a fight makes sense.

I found the Baguazhang exchange equally as odd. Lots of form when not engaged descended quickly into little more than hanging onto each others waists when fighting. Again a massive rupture between the form and the fighting. I didn't see much sense in all the circling and I didn't see much Bagua in the attacks. Admittedly I only watched the first minute or so before I got bored but I would've thought one of the two might have tried to grab a leg, sank down to use their body weight to achieve a throw or something. Didn't see any of that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Funny how much of a difference that makes...

I remember my first boxing coach telling me this:
You are short and stubby ( LOL) and have heavy hands, stop dancing around and knock his head off.

To paraphrase the Dos XX's man:
I don't always connect with my strikes, but when I do, your ancestors feel it !

:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

That was my first thought. The fight was bizarre. Pre-bell the Wing Chun player holds a rigid goat stance for minutes and then as soon as the bell goes he tosses that out of the window and goes charging in. Anyone with any sort of grappling knowledge would've taken him down. I watched it and wondered what on earth was the point of all that showiness if the second the fighting starts you abandon your form completely. This is without getting into the question of whether or not standing in a goat stance before a fight makes sense.

I found the Baguazhang exchange equally as odd. Lots of form when not engaged descended quickly into little more than hanging onto each others waists when fighting. Again a massive rupture between the form and the fighting. I didn't see much sense in all the circling and I didn't see much Bagua in the attacks. Admittedly I only watched the first minute or so before I got bored but I would've thought one of the two might have tried to grab a leg, sank down to use their body weight to achieve a throw or something. Didn't see any of that.

I can understand why the WC guy probably made that mistake:
He saw what the other guys was "looking" to do and that was charge him and he ( the wc guy) thought that he would "beat him to the punch".

[Jimbo]

I give the guy credit for getting into the ring, but he was SO tensed up, holding that on-guard position so long before the match even started. Even when no one was standing in front of him, he kept it up, almost like rigor mortis. It's no wonder he got steamrolled so easily.

[YouKnowWho]

Let me ask this simple question then. How can a WC guy be able to reach to this level? Should his training need some modification? Should he spend more time to train his footwork?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_x2rqKc&feature=player_embedded

[sanjuro_ronin]

Let me ask this simple question then. How can a WC guy be able to reach to this level? Should his training need some modification? Should he spend more time to train his footwork?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_x2rqKc&feature=player_embedded

Elite level fighters are born, not made John.
ANYONE can become a competent fighter but to compete at the elite level, that is another thing entirely.

[Crosshandz]

I can understand why the WC guy probably made that mistake:
He saw what the other guys was "looking" to do and that was charge him and he ( the wc guy) thought that he would "beat him to the punch".

But the other guy crouched repeatedly in the build up to the fight. Surely that was a clue that he wouldn't mind attacking him at the waist, which is precisely what happened? If your opponent threw kicks out during the warmup you'd assume they were a kicker, if they bobbed and weaved a boxer, if they crouch low a ground fighter, no?

There is no sense in what the Wing Chun guy did. None.

[IronFist]

What will happen when a Bagua guy fights a WC guy?

Please comment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io_qLYs8Ocw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h-gev8goEI&feature=related

That first vid wasn't WC vs. Bagua.

And I bet the WC guy's arm was getting tired from holding it out for 2 minutes before the fight began.

[IronFist]

Elite level fighters are born, not made John.
ANYONE can become a competent fighter but to compete at the elite level, that is another thing entirely.

This.

Elite level in any sport is genetics + superior training.

Sure, some people use genetics as an excuse, but some people will not be elite level even with perfect training and perfect diet/supps/coaching/drugs.

It's not PC to say this, though, so I expect to be flamed.

[IronFist]

Let me ask this simple question then. How can a WC guy be able to reach to this level? Should his training need some modification? Should he spend more time to train his footwork?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_x2rqKc&feature=player_embedded

Reaching that level is possible if the person studies MMA.

Didn't we already talk about that clip in another thread? It wasn't WC, therefore it's not even relevant to ask "how can a WC guy reach this level?"

That's like asking how can a drag racer learn to corner in his dragster like an AutoX guy.

[YouKnowWho]

Didn't we already talk about that clip in another thread? It wasn't WC, therefore it's not even relevant to ask "how can a WC guy reach this level?"

Continuous straight punches is continuous straight punches. Whether you want to call it "chain punches" or "head hunting", it won't make any difference. The word "style" has no meaning to me. It's the end result that I care about. when I was 11 years old, I was forced to train "1 step 3 punches" for 3 years. I didn't know what style that I trained and I didn't care.

Sometime people may only pay attention on how fast that they can punch without moving forward. IMO, the fast forward footwork is more important than the fast punches.

Just wonder if people will agree with me on the importance of the footwork training. This thread is really trying to discuss "footwork". If you can run your opponent down, your chain punches may not even be needed.

[Robinhood]

Most TCMA are rooted in self defense, but these sport fighting events pretty much are just offense against offense, for a lot of reasons that most people do not seem to be aware of.

So training just full offense seems to work good for these events, hit him before he hits you, not really self defense unless you can prove he was going to kill you first outside the ring.

A punch is a punch, who cares what style, style does not make much difference in sport fighting, because of the rules you will not see a style.

[IronFist]

Continuous straight punches is continuous straight punches. Whether you want to call it "chain punches" or "head hunting", it won't make any difference. The word "style" has no meaning to me. It's the end result that I care about. when I was 11 years old, I was forced to train "1 step 3 punches" for 3 years. I didn't know what style that I trained and I didn't care.

Sometime people may only pay attention on how fast that they can punch without moving forward. IMO, the fast forward footwork is more important than the fast punches.

Just wonder if people will agree with me on the importance of the footwork training. This thread is really trying to discuss "footwork". If you can run your opponent down, your chain punches may not even needed.

All I'm saying is if someone showed me that clip and said "I want to learn how to fight like that. What should I do?" I wouldn't tell them to join a WC school.

[Lucas]

All I'm saying is if someone showed me that clip and said "I want to learn how to fight like that. What should I do?" I wouldn't tell them to join a WC school.

I'd punch them in the stomach if they did that.

[jo]

Just wonder if people will agree with me on the importance of the footwork training. This thread is really trying to discuss "footwork". If you can run your opponent down, your chain punches may not even needed.

"If the feet are not right, the hands will be light."

- jo

[-N-]

Just wonder if people will agree with me on the importance of the footwork training. This thread is really trying to discuss "footwork".
In that case, I'm in agreement.

It's just that in those 2 clips, I didn't see much in the way of fighting as I saw some pwnage and some half hearted low level "sparring".

Was that even decent footwork in the second clip? I can't bring myself to watch it again.

[YouKnowWho]

All I'm saying is if someone showed me that clip and said "I want to learn how to fight like that. What should I do?" I wouldn't tell them to join a WC school.

Many years ago in Taiwan, there was a guy who wanted to compete in Kung Fu tournament. He didn't have any MA background. Someone suggested a training method for him. He hanged a coconut with 2 ropes between 2 trees. Everyday he punched that coconut while it bounced between tree. 6 months later he fought the tournament, nobody could get away from his "head hunting".

What style did he trained? No style at all.

[IronFist]

Many years ago in Taiwan, there was a guy who wanted to compete in Kung Fu tournament. He didn't have any MA background. Someone suggested a training method for him. He hanged a coconut with 2 ropes between 2 trees. Everyday he punched that coconut while it bounced between tree. 6 months later he fought the tournament, nobody could get away from his "head hunting".

What style did he trained? No style at all.

He was probably fighting against tcma guys who didnt know how to fight anyway. I'm sure even a mid level mma amateur would wipe the floor with him. But again, more anecdotal evidence about some ancient dude. And i find that story highly implausible anyway unless his opponents had never trained against a resisting opponent... oh wait, they were tcma guys. N/m I believe it.

On a related note, the I'm imagining the rig you described as being similar to a double end bag, which is a great training tool. It's hilarious and humbling how many of your punches miss when you first start using it.



There was this guy who wanted to win battle of the bands but had never had any music lessons. Someone suggested he make a guitar out of a shoebox and rubberbands. He practiced every day for 6 months and ended up winning battle of the bands :D

[Dragonzbane76]

Most TCMA are rooted in self defense, but these sport fighting events pretty much are just offense against offense, for a lot of reasons that most people do not seem to be aware of.

So training just full offense seems to work good for these events, hit him before he hits you, not really self defense unless you can prove he was going to kill you first outside the ring.

I cannot fathom where you get the these "sporting" events are just offense against offense?

Honestly, with no due disrespect, there is a lot of these "sporting" fights that have plenty of defense added into the mix. on the amature level you see a lot of the offense present but the higher up you go you see a constant application of defense and offense present.

The thing that most people of the "traditional" background don't get is that MMA translates pretty well to formats of the "street" just fine. When people think of mma they think BJJ which is a back a$$ way of thinking IMO. The "killing" metaphone is over stated. Being able to fight on all fronts is where mma garners it's prize. Which I can say, most traditional background neglect a lot especially in the clinch and ground.

[-N-]

Many years ago in Taiwan, there was a guy who wanted to compete in Kung Fu tournament. He didn't have any MA background. Someone suggested a training method for him. He hanged a coconut with 2 ropes between 2 trees. Everyday he punched that coconut while it bounced between tree. 6 months later he fought the tournament, nobody could get away from his "head hunting".

What style did he trained? No style at all.

Did that train his footwork? Or did he just wait for the other guys to come to him?

:)

[YouKnowWho]

Did that train his footwork? Or did he just wait for the other guys to come to him?

:)
I think since that was the only thing he could do. He concentrated on his only move and that gave him his advantage. In order to be able to move with the bounching coconut between trees, he had to move around. He could land his foot at the right place and at the right time.

The same thing happened to another guy. His father forced him to train "hip throw" for one year and half. He later on became Taiwan SC champion.

[Lokhopkuen]

- I started this thread as "Please comment."
- You asked me, "Why do you make these silly comparisons?"
- I give your my reason, "... could have some interesting discussion."
- You then say that I'm "lecturing".

Will it be better if I just ignore your question and not answer your question at all? :confused:

If I started a thread as "lecturing", Instead of saying, "Please comment", I will say, "Just shut up and listen". But I will never do that.

Vajramusti is WC exponent so prolly he's not happy the tag WC on a fellow who clearly does not rep the system at an exponential level of application skill sets?

[Lokhopkuen]

Thats all fighting not just sport fighting.

First vid looked like the typical cage fight. One guy was stupid for staying rooted, he paid for it with a take down.
Second vid was a sparring match it looked like. Some back and forth not much special. I only watched a minute or so of it though.

In the first bit I was kinda hoping the guy would go FULL LEGEND OF WING CHUN and hold his root, defend his center and chain punch his opponent to oblivion Kungfu movie style, but yep the physics of the other guys attack won over.

[Fa Xing]

To paraphrase the Dos XX's man:
I don't always connect with my strikes, but when I do, your ancestors feel it !

:D

I like that lol.

[YouKnowWho]

Vajramusti is WC exponent so prolly he's not happy the tag WC on a fellow who clearly does not rep the system at an exponential level of application skill sets?

It was original posted by blackjesus in the "Wing Chun Full Contact Fights" thread under the WC section.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57195&page=7

[bawang]

In the first bit I was kinda hoping the guy would go FULL LEGEND OF WING CHUN and hold his root, defend his center and chain punch his opponent to oblivion Kungfu movie style, but yep the physics of the other guys attack won over.

its not physics, its STUPIDITY. wing chun is STUPID.

you hold a high guard, stand rigid, and dont wrestle. how you dont get your ass kicked?

[YouKnowWho]

Simple question here. It's bad enough to let your opponent to get your single leg. It's even worse to let your opponent to get double legs on you. How will you prevent your opponent from getting your both legs at the sametime?

[wenshu]

For starters don't rush at him standing up straight with your hips squared off.

[bawang]

in traditional kung fu, not knowing wrestling is considered low level. the saying goes "randomly swinging fists, forget to wrestle". wing chun is low level kung fu. its only useful for beating up your mistress.

[Robinhood]

The nature of WC does not apply well in sport fighting.

A combination of boxing, mui tai kicking and wrestling is best training for sport fighting.

[Lokhopkuen]

its not physics, its STUPIDITY. wing chun is STUPID.

you hold a high guard, stand rigid, and dont wrestle. how you dont get your ass kicked?

You've the way with words:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

in traditional kung fu, not knowing wrestling is considered low level. the saying goes "randomly swinging fists, forget to wrestle". wing chun is low level kung fu. its only useful for beating up your mistress.

Leung Ting agrees with you.
:D

[Vajramusti]

You've the way with words:D
--------------
Bawang-Tries to be cute.

[bawang]

are you challenging me?

[BakShaolinEC]

WC guy was asking for it the way he went in.

[Drake]

are you challenging me?

No, but I am. I want to fight you until we are both covered in each other's blood. Then we can hug and be brothers.

[Lucas]

i wanna fight bawang too!! i call second!

[sanjuro_ronin]

No, but I am. I want to fight you until we are both covered in each other's blood. Then we can hug and be brothers.

Gaaayyyyyy !!!!

[Lucas]

Gaaayyyyyy !!!!

did your gaaydar go off??

[Drake]

Gaaayyyyyy !!!!

No. The gay part is where we lick each other's blood off of our faces.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No. The gay part is where we lick each other's blood off of our faces.

See, now I need something to get THAT mental picture exorcized !
http://getabikini.com/photos/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/aylen_alvarez-latini-bikini-hottie.jpg

[-N-]

She can help.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-y7U3xldxFPI/TmbvU_KTM1I/AAAAAAAAI2I/geSgFfXBoA0/s1600/gina-carano-0.jpg

[bawang]

where you at? you scare. you scare.

[MightyB]

What will happen when a Bagua guy fights a WC guy?



Everyone loses. :D

[Yoshiyahu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h-gev8goEI&feature=related'''


interesting vid...it seems like the TKD guy was confused by the circling...He should just went straight in a stuck to his center while punching.

But in reality someone else said it the more aggressive and stronger opponent wins.


If your not use circling...it can play tricks on your mind. I had one guy do that to me when i was 16...i knew i just started doing Wing Chun so he didnt stick and move, he didnt rush me...he circled me and every now and then he threw a strike...i was too busy playing defensive i couldnt get my game on. I kept trying to anticipate his next strike so i can defend instead of just striking the middle...Now when anyone does that crap...I just attack him fast and hard...circle me if you want too...if you have to stop circling to strike consistently...Now that i know this...i will break your flow an connect my own...force you to play my game and control you in the process!

[lance]

What will happen when a Bagua guy fights a WC guy?

Please comment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io_qLYs8Ocw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h-gev8goEI&feature=related

The first video clip the WC was an inexperience fighter and if his opponent is suppose to be a bagua guy , well I did ' nt know that bagua people just moves in on their opponent and ends the match .

Unless you ' re talking about the second video clip and not the first one .

The second video clip I would say that both the WC man and the bagua man , were just as good as eachother in fighting eachother .

[YouKnowWho]

The Bagua and XingYi system use strategy that you keep moving even if you don't know what you are going to do. During your moving, you find opening on your opponent and enter with attack.

The WC system that I have learned doesn't move as much as the Bagua or XingYi system. It's more like the Taiji system that remain center instead.

[EternalSpring]

in traditional kung fu, not knowing wrestling is considered low level. the saying goes "randomly swinging fists, forget to wrestle". wing chun is low level kung fu. its only useful for beating up your mistress.

no! it's useful for the mistress to beat up her man

[Ray Pina]

What will happen when a Bagua guy fights a WC guy?


Hell should freeze over..... neither style produces fighters, relatively. If you take the number of practicing Ba Gua and Wing Chun players and divide it by the number of active kicking boxing or MMA competitive pro fighters those styles have produced you get what?

[Snipsky]

Hell should freeze over..... neither style produces fighters, relatively. If you take the number of practicing Ba Gua and Wing Chun players and divide it by the number of active kicking boxing or MMA competitive pro fighters those styles have produced you get what?

ha ha ha. Surely not YOU. You're not a fighter either. you're just as bad as the other non fighters. you're a has been LOL

[Yao Sing]

And if you take the number of MMA fighters and divide by the number of people who successsfully applied their martial arts in the real world what do you get? :D

I train to defeat Tito and his home boys, not Tito Ortiz. I train to deal with rampaging criminals, not Rampage Jackson.

[Ray Pina]

And if you take the number of MMA fighters and divide by the number of people who successsfully applied their martial arts in the real world what do you get? :D


A number larger than 0.... which is the number of successful TCMA fighters.

[David Jamieson]

You still bitter that you got kicked out of the class or something Ray? lol
That's a long time to hold a grudge!

[hskwarrior]

he's just bitter he can't sit in horse stance longer than 15 secs....LMAO.

[RonBlair]

You still bitter that you got kicked out of the class or something Ray? lol
That's a long time to hold a grudge!

Ray has some good points. A lot of cmaists believe they can "handle" themselves in a fight. Visualizing while doing the bil gee form and feeling tough isn't going to do it.

David, do you believe you can handle yourself against a skilled fighter in a h2h confrontation? What are these beliefs based on? I'm not trying to target you or be a d!ck. Martial artists should always be questioning their feelings. I'm scared to death of a confrontation against a good fighter which is why I train the way I do now.

[RonBlair]

he's just bitter he can't sit in horse stance longer than 15 secs....LMAO.

Choy lee fat looks like it could be a street viable style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsFmWipioeg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Staying in horse stance for too long at the expense of other training is a waste.

[Lucas]

Actually there are successful tcma fighters. Not only in san shou, which there are tons btw, i challenge anyone here to become king of san shou, but fighters in mma as well. Ive pointed to them in the past as have others. When ever someone does tho, those that claim that there are none conveniently either dont notice, or simply ignore the facts so that they can continue their diatribe and continue to make themselves feel superior. Its a similar superiority complex that many complain about in regards to cma.

Its ironically very funny.

[hskwarrior]

Choy lee fat looks like it could be a street viable style.
Staying in horse stance for too long at the expense of other training is a waste.


Choy Lee Fut is a system designed for nothing but combat as it came about resulting from turbulent times in the 1800's. Revolution after revolution from 1851 - 1949 the hung sing branch used their gung fu not only against chinese and foreign soldiers, bandits, as well as challengers, they even defended their country against the japanese invasion of China. Fighting has been embedded into its DNA from the get go.

The problem today in TMA today is WU DE. That honor code of the non violent types. in many cases, those types don't know how to fight but can do a really nice form. Its been my personal experience that the Wu De types shun the fighters cause its uncivilized. you know, not the thing high class people do. LOL.

and i only tease ray about the horse stance cause he makes the biggest stink....not to mention.......REPEATEDLY. over and over and over.......his tune never changes.

in my opinion, stop the cryin' and make the change yourself. anyways below is a clip of a recent CLF fighting competition......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk7Kfrna7kY

[David Jamieson]

Ray has some good points. A lot of cmaists believe they can "handle" themselves in a fight. Visualizing while doing the bil gee form and feeling tough isn't going to do it.

David, do you believe you can handle yourself against a skilled fighter in a h2h confrontation? What are these beliefs based on? I'm not trying to target you or be a d!ck. Martial artists should always be questioning their feelings. I'm scared to death of a confrontation against a good fighter which is why I quit wing chin and train the way I do now.

What do you want Ron? You want to see pictures of my scars? You wanna see the teeth that have been knocked out of my head? You wanna see how flat my knuckles are from hitting others in the head? You wanna see where a buckshot load tore through my shin? You wanna see the scar where a freaking sword made a beautiful thin cut down my thigh?

I base my "belief" on having been in more than enough confrontations and conflicts throughout my own life.

I also fought competitively as a juvenile boxer and in HS as a wrestler.

That stuff? It doesn't compare to getting in a scrap with several others on a concrete parking lot. Not in the least.

Ray makes a good point? No, no he doesn't. He whines a lot about nothing and posts jacked up nonsense about his journey where he would go for a little friendly cross hands then go turbo to the ridiculous level.

No offense Ray, but I've never really agreed with your position on that approach. Training? yeah, we can see eye to eye on training in a few areas. But that's just training.

When it comes to fighting, I don't care how much you train or what you train, you either got the guts or you don't. That is the true bottom line.

Good enough Ron? :rolleyes:

[doug maverick]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y8yqAg0FB4

go to about 4:11 to see how that fight should have gone down, and probably did...in their heads...lmfao

[RonBlair]

What do you want Ron? You want to see pictures of my scars? You wanna see the teeth that have been knocked out of my head? You wanna see how flat my knuckles are from hitting others in the head? You wanna see where a buckshot load tore through my shin? You wanna see the scar where a freaking sword made a beautiful thin cut down my thigh?

I base my "belief" on having been in more than enough confrontations and conflicts throughout my own life.

I also fought competitively as a juvenile boxer and in HS as a wrestler.

That stuff? It doesn't compare to getting in a scrap with several others on a concrete parking lot. Not in the least.

Ray makes a good point? No, no he doesn't. He whines a lot about nothing and posts jacked up nonsense about his journey where he would go for a little friendly cross hands then go turbo to the ridiculous level.

No offense Ray, but I've never really agreed with your position on that approach. Training? yeah, we can see eye to eye on training in a few areas. But that's just training.

When it comes to fighting, I don't care how much you train or what you train, you either got the guts or you don't. That is the true bottom line.

Good enough Ron? :rolleyes:


Wow, that was a whiny answer. You shouldn't be making fun of Ray for the way he answers.

Very lofty claims you make young Jedi padawan. I know why Ray gets so much crap. It's because he has put up videos. And then he was judged on those videos. That's the reason most of us don't make videos or put them up when we do make them of us sparring. Ray is a victim of being judged by people like you who make these great claims that are unsubstantiated.

Your "fighting" life is probably more fantasy than real based on the fact tat we har so many cameras around, and YouTube, but when you type in David Jameson fighting you get nada. Get over yourself and stop ranking on Ray.

[wenshu]

You want to see pictures of my scars? You wanna see the teeth that have been knocked out of my head? You wanna see how flat my knuckles are from hitting others in the head? You wanna see where a buckshot load tore through my shin? You wanna see the scar where a freaking sword made a beautiful thin cut down my thigh?

Yeah, but you should see the other girl.

[Yao Sing]

I don't know about anyone else but all those cameras around and youtube didn't come about until I was quite older and no longer hanging out looking for trouble.

I bet if we had video cameras back then we would have recorded some very incriminating 'assaults'. :D

There weren't even any fighting events except for tournament sparring, usually had to travel for those. By the time full contact kickboxing became popular I was trying to clean up my act and get a community college degree while working full time supporting a family.

Ray's world is just a recent fad to us older guys but it's everything to him. Anything outside that world doesn't exist for him.

[hskwarrior]

Ray's world is just a recent fad to us older guys but it's everything to him. Anything outside that world doesn't exist for him.

remember, he said compared to EVERYONE on this forum he's a martial god!!!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

remember, he said compared to EVERYONE on this forum he's a martial god!!!!!

When did Ray say that?

[hskwarrior]

somewhere in this thread:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62005&page=3

[Lucas]

i dont remember when i but i also remember reading that. but its just one of those grain of salt moments

[David Jamieson]

Wow, that was a whiny answer. You shouldn't be making fun of Ray for the way he answers.

Very lofty claims you make young Jedi padawan. I know why Ray gets so much crap. It's because he has put up videos. And then he was judged on those videos. That's the reason most of us don't make videos or put them up when we do make them of us sparring. Ray is a victim of being judged by people like you who make these great claims that are unsubstantiated.

Your "fighting" life is probably more fantasy than real based on the fact tat we har so many cameras around, and YouTube, but when you type in David Jameson fighting you get nada. Get over yourself and stop ranking on Ray.

Hey kid, get a life and quit trolling here. Seriously.

[David Jamieson]

Yeah, but you should see the other girl.

She's ok now. :p

[David Jamieson]

I don't know about anyone else but all those cameras around and youtube didn't come about until I was quite older and no longer hanging out looking for trouble.

I bet if we had video cameras back then we would have recorded some very incriminating 'assaults'. :D

There weren't even any fighting events except for tournament sparring, usually had to travel for those. By the time full contact kickboxing became popular I was trying to clean up my act and get a community college degree while working full time supporting a family.

Ray's world is just a recent fad to us older guys but it's everything to him. Anything outside that world doesn't exist for him.

Video cameras weren't even available to regular consumers in my time. People still shot with super 8 and the vid cams weren't even available for consumption until the mid 80's at a reasonable price.

You can always tell when a greenhorn is harping when they ask for video from an older dude. Stupid kids.

[RonBlair]

Video cameras weren't even available to regular consumers in my time. People still shot with super 8 and the vid cams weren't even available for consumption until the mid 80's at a reasonable price.

You can always tell when a greenhorn is harping when they ask for video from an older dude. Stupid kids.

You when an older guy is full of crap when he claims he has skill as no videos...even though he probably owns more than one camera.

[David Jamieson]

You when an older guy is full of crap when he claims he has skill as no videos...even though he probably owns more than one camera.

and another in 3...2...1