Experience rolling with tai chi people?

[mjw]

Anyone have experience rolling with tai chi people?

I did for the first time about a week ago.
I really liked how they used circular movement to dissolve force and were up rooting me a bit however I felt like I got more strikes but it was interesting either way.

[YouKnowWho]

In my experience, the moment that you get hold of your Taiji opponent, the Taiji push hand soon turn into wrestling match. Should Taiji PH be different from wrestling? Why do you even need Taiji PH if it's no different from wrestling? I just don't have answer for that.

[Phil Redmond]

When they circle I release and strike. They say I'm doing it wrong......:rolleyes:

[Subitai]

When they circle I release and strike. They say I'm doing it wrong......:rolleyes:


Haha Phil...they are the ones doing it wrong. Tai Chi has the same goals as WC in many ways. Be mindfull of the center, defend your own and KNOW where his is.

If they are circling...it should be for a purpose (other than just to circle) like extending your energy or warding you off.

If you are able to release and strike then they are just plain poor because they should be listening and following you.

Obviously, it's because whoever you were touching hands with, IS NOT at your skill level and also, they probably don't ever accelerate during push hands and lack the skill to follow you.

But, please don't "ROLL" all Tai Chi people into one ball. haha Pun intended.

[Subitai]

Anyone have experience rolling with tai chi people?

I did for the first time about a week ago.
I really liked how they used circular movement to dissolve force and were up rooting me a bit however I felt like I got more strikes but it was interesting either way.

Tai Chi is strictly stand up...once you hit the ground, connection is lost. I don't care if i'm sticking my neck out and saying it but that's the truth.

Now if you just mean stand up;
ie stand up = strike, displace, lock and such and such....WHILST remaining standing up, then yeah TC still has a chance. But not from when you're on your back...or knees for that matter.
At that point, escape and stand up or suffer...but don't try to say it's still TC.

Yup, my opinion.

[Buddha_Fist]

When they circle I release and strike. They say I'm doing it wrong......:rolleyes:

You are doing it right. You are not following their game, you impose your own....

[Phil Redmond]

. . . You are not following their game, you impose your own....
Good saying. I'm going to use that. :)

[Fa Xing]

When they circle I release and strike. They say I'm doing it wrong......:rolleyes:

Which is why stopped training Taiji on a regular basis. Most of them were sissy, weed-smoking hippies who would rather feel their "qi" then train in actual fighting technique.

But that is my experience from dealing with Taiji people in California; actually I think John knows the guys I'm mostly talking about from Santa Barbara.

[nasmedicine]

I touch hands with them all the time at Columbus Park in china town, NYC. Not just Tai Chi though - Lung Ying, Bak Mei, Ba Gua and the many other internal arts that show up there on the weekends.

[YouKnowWho]

Which is why stopped training Taiji on a regular basis. Most of them were sissy, weed-smoking hippies who would rather feel their "qi" then train in actual fighting technique.

But that is my experience from dealing with Taiji people in California; actually I think John knows the guys I'm mostly talking about from Santa Barbara.

Too many people train Taiji for health in California. :(

[Phil Redmond]

I touch hands with them all the time at Columbus Park in china town, NYC. Not just Tai Chi though - Lung Ying, Bak Mei, Ba Gua and the many other internal arts that show up there on the weekends.
I teach a Wing Chun class in Columbus Park on Sundays from 3-5pm. Well, at least until it gets too cold. You should stop by sometime.

[imperialtaichi]

Tai Chi was developed for fighting. The original Yang family was teaching the art to both the Manchurian Noblemen and Imperial Guards. I don't think the Imperial Guards were much interested in just being healthy hippies.

In the Tai Chi system, there are strikes, throws and some grappling. When done properly, it is hard to land strikes on a Tai Chi dude.

The main strategy of Tai Chi fighting is to be like a ghost; to be "not" there when the opponent attacks. The softness is not just to disipate the incoming force, but also to not give anything away (if the opponent cannot sense you correctly, he wouldn't know how to deal with you), while completely covering the opponent's attacks, and to fool the opponent's senses.

The study of Tai Chi focuses on knowing yourself, knowing your enemy, and knowing the interactions including force, reaction, physiological responses and psychology. While the model is "Qi" based, most of the effects can be explained scientifically. There is NO magic.

If I have to describe Martial Arts as "cooking"; then Tai Chi would be the study of the science of cooking while (Kulo 22) Wing Chun is the master recipe book.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

When they circle I release and strike. They say I'm doing it wrong......:rolleyes:

Strictly speaking, when done properly the circling is done via the change in force vectors with very little movement and minimal change in the quantity of force. Why? because I don't want the opponent to know what I am doing. If I move, you will sense the weakness and trap/strike me. If I do not move, I am not letting you know how to deal with me, and give you the false impression that you are gaining. While I undermine your balance (to be as sneaky as possible). I will then attack when you least expect it and when the balance is gone.

Cheers,
John

[Hardwork108]

Haha Phil...they are the ones doing it wrong. Tai Chi has the same goals as WC in many ways. Be mindfull of the center, defend your own and KNOW where his is.

If they are circling...it should be for a purpose (other than just to circle) like extending your energy or warding you off.

If you are able to release and strike then they are just plain poor because they should be listening and following you.

Obviously, it's because whoever you were touching hands with, IS NOT at your skill level and also, they probably don't ever accelerate during push hands and lack the skill to follow you.

But, please don't "ROLL" all Tai Chi people into one ball. haha Pun intended.

Agreed 100% with this post. You can't assume all tai chi practitioners are like that. Tai Chi is like Wing Chun, also in that most of the practitioners have no clue about how to use it in actual combat, using its principles and distinct skill sets.

[mjw]

I didn't roll as in wrestling or do their ball game it was more or less mini chi sao with out rolling almost like wrist to wrist if you know what I mean since I don't know the ball rolling and they didn't know WC rolling.

I kind of felt like their fook type hand was heavy and they liked to basically hold my arm with their hand which allowed for a lot of pak das to get in etc. But what I thought was good was when I seized the elbow rather than shoot the other hand through like I always do they collapsed it and did this weird kind or tai chi ball roll and regained the center.

They seem to like to uproot and push where I like to strike and uproot when I can but I'd rather take a shot. The one guy I saw again and he seems very fascinated with WC now coming from some type of karate back ground prior.......

***I'm also not saying that all tai chi guys are like this i've only touched hands with 2 now not counting my sifu who did tai chi b4 WC but it was insightful*

[Fa Xing]

Tai Chi was developed for fighting. The original Yang family was teaching the art to both the Manchurian Noblemen and Imperial Guards. I don't think the Imperial Guards were much interested in just being healthy hippies.

In the Tai Chi system, there are strikes, throws and some grappling. When done properly, it is hard to land strikes on a Tai Chi dude.

The main strategy of Tai Chi fighting is to be like a ghost; to be "not" there when the opponent attacks. The softness is not just to disipate the incoming force, but also to not give anything away (if the opponent cannot sense you correctly, he wouldn't know how to deal with you), while completely covering the opponent's attacks, and to fool the opponent's senses.

The study of Tai Chi focuses on knowing yourself, knowing your enemy, and knowing the interactions including force, reaction, physiological responses and psychology. While the model is "Qi" based, most of the effects can be explained scientifically. There is NO magic.

If I have to describe Martial Arts as "cooking"; then Tai Chi would be the study of the science of cooking while (Kulo 22) Wing Chun is the master recipe book.

Cheers,
John

Trust me I tried to introduce more combative aspects to some here in California. I just got weird and/or disapproving looks for it. Some were even afraid to do the martial arts side of it out of fear of being attacked in the park while practicing. Why do a martial art then?

I have decided after getting no where to move onto Jeet Kune Do, and at least bring the attributes I've gained from Taiji to that.

[Phil Redmond]

Trust me I tried to introduce more combative aspects to some here in California. I just got weird and/or disapproving looks for it. Some were even afraid to do the martial arts side of it out of fear of being attacked in the park while practicing. Why do a martial art then? . . . .
I was in L.A. in 2006 and I found some people like that. There are people like that everywhere. But, there are some hardcore martial artists in L.A. Dale and Ernie come to mind.

[nasmedicine]

Strictly speaking, when done properly the circling is done via the change in force vectors with very little movement and minimal change in the quantity of force. Why? because I don't want the opponent to know what I am doing. If I move, you will sense the weakness and trap/strike me. If I do not move, I am not letting you know how to deal with me, and give you the false impression that you are gaining. While I undermine your balance (to be as sneaky as possible). I will then attack when you least expect it and when the balance is gone.

Cheers,
John

Precisely!

[anerlich]

Tai Chi is strictly stand up...once you hit the ground, connection is lost. I don't care if i'm sticking my neck out and saying it but that's the truth.

IOW, same as Wing Chun.

Josh Waitzkin, author of "The Art of Learning" was World Taiji push hands champion. What he did sounds more like good-quality greco-roman wrestling than anything else.

Yeah, it's pretty obvious the OP wasn't talking about rolling ina grappling context.

[nasmedicine]

I teach a Wing Chun class in Columbus Park on Sundays from 3-5pm. Well, at least until it gets too cold. You should stop by sometime.

Would love to one of these days.

[nasmedicine]

IOW, same as Wing Chun.

Josh Waitzkin, author of "The Art of Learning" was World Taiji push hands champion. What he did sounds more like good-quality greco-roman wrestling than anything else.

Yeah, it's pretty obvious the OP wasn't talking about rolling ina grappling context.

At the root of it all, everything is the same. Truth is truth and good body mechanics (no matter what label one would like to attach to it) is good body mechanics. Bottom line is, does it work...

[Yoshiyahu]

I have rolled with a few Tai Chi guys over the years.

I also study Tai Chi off and on.

The first part of push hands. is to get use to push and pull. Most of the time The strikes, chin na and take downs and kicks are not employed in Tui Shou right at the beginning.

You start off with basic level Push hands. Excel as you push to uproot. Inhale as you pull or turn off force to off balance. The idea is to lead the opponents force into nothing. Tai Chi basic level push hands is continous Yin and Yang. You push to defeat his structure. You lead his push into nothingness to disrupt his structure.

The key is to off balance him or move him out of his root.


Its a drill. Not actually sparring. Later on Tai chi imploys more force. Kicks, Palm Strikes and punches.

A person with only basic level push hands will not be able defend against a strike. WC fighters start sparring alot earlier than tai chi guys. Tai Chi doesn't start sparring until about ten years in! The believe in learning the basic principles first so you can be strong. Like the breathe, leading your opponent into nothingness, learning to loose, strong root, using your root to uproot your opponent, using his force to send him flying.

Basic Push hands is taking your opponents force an using his energy as a weapon against him.

From receiving his force and sending it back to him or receiving his force an guiding him continously into the same direction.

Tai Chi today is basically for health as some as said...So the martial aspects are not readily taught to all!

[imperialtaichi]

Trust me I tried to introduce more combative aspects to some here in California. I just got weird and/or disapproving looks for it. Some were even afraid to do the martial arts side of it out of fear of being attacked in the park while practicing. Why do a martial art then?

I have decided after getting no where to move onto Jeet Kune Do, and at least bring the attributes I've gained from Taiji to that.

I share your frustration!

To be honest, I have more or less given up teaching Tai Chi to the public for the exact same reason. I don't want to teach the watered down version, but most people don't want the real deal.

Teaching Kulo is way more fun anyway ;)

[Robinhood]

In my experience, the moment that you get hold of your Taiji opponent, the Taiji push hand soon turn into wrestling match. Should Taiji PH be different from wrestling? Why do you even need Taiji PH if it's no different from wrestling? I just don't have answer for that.

They probably grab you because they don't practice much striking, or don't want to punch you.

[YouKnowWho]

They probably grab you because they don't practice much striking, or don't want to punch you.

My opponent didn't grab me. I grabbed him.

[Robinhood]

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho
In my experience, the moment that you get hold of your Taiji opponent, the Taiji push hand soon turn into wrestling match. Should Taiji PH be different from wrestling? Why do you even need Taiji PH if it's no different from wrestling? I just don't have answer for that.
My opponent didn't grab me. I grabbed him.

How do you have wrestling match without grabbing ?

[Fa Xing]

I share your frustration!

To be honest, I have more or less given up teaching Tai Chi to the public for the exact same reason. I don't want to teach the watered down version, but most people don't want the real deal.

Teaching Kulo is way more fun anyway ;)

Actually, what I liked was my sensitivity was on par with some of the good JKD/WCK guys, and much better than the average or beginner practitioners.

[Fa Xing]

I was in L.A. in 2006 and I found some people like that. There are people like that everywhere. But, there are some hardcore martial artists in L.A. Dale and Ernie come to mind.

I've looked up a few of them myself, however, at this point in my training I'm trying to take what I know and ask myself what I would do. Then "test" that against other people who don't train the way I do. It's been very enlightening so far and taught me a lot, as well as pointed out where I'm in control and at what point I lose that control of myself.

[Yoshiyahu]

In theory. Tai Chi shouldnt be mere brute on brute strength wrestling...Although contrary to popular belief. Tai Chi Ain't 100% Soft. It is Yin and Yang. Soft and Hard like WC. The Push is hard, guiding force into nothingness is soft!


The Push hands can go into multiple vectors. (Forward, Back, up, down, Left, Right and diagonal vectors.) The main or beginning vector is forward and back. Here you learn to use your breath with the movements. Push,punch,kick or you exhale your breath to expel force. A Pull or roll back, or drawing in movemnts you inhale to absorb energy.

Depending on the school of thought Yang or Chen the structure and power utilization is alot different.


With Yang you use substantial and nonsubstantial. You use your weight,body,structure to pull and push. In theory when your opponent pushes you pull him. when he pulls you you push him. If he does nothing push and pull him continously to get him off balance. Its more to tai chi than push hands.

The forms themsevles once broken down and drilled in realistic application also assist in uprooting and taking your opponent down.

The focal point of Tai Chi is Push and Pull to lead your opponent to nothingness or to throw him to ground.

Tai Chi Movements have kicks and punches but the take down and uprooting techniques are predominant in the forms.

Most Tai Chi in Western countries do not have the Yang or hard conditioning to go with it.


Tai chi has external force as well as internal force. You can not train the internal with out the external. Also there is hard chi gung as well as soft chi gung.



Heavy Ball to turn = This builds up cycle force among other things. Trains the arms and builds power. But few people i have seen actually use the heavy ball. Start off with a ball the size of a bowling ball and work your way to heavier.

Striking the wooden Post = Hitting the Trees like Baguazhang is also apart of Tai Chi. Since Tai Chi uses more palm strikes than fist. The Tree or wooden post builds up the force needed to actually repel your opponent.

With out these two things your Tai Chi will be really weak. There are more external skills to develop like iron palm by hitting Water, iron palm bag striking and punching, kicking, and utilizes your other seven stars against heavy bag man. But the two i mentioned first in my opinion are the main things outside of chi gung you need to make your tai chi formidable.

In all actuality Tai Chi like Wing Chun seeks to bridge. the difference between Wing Chun and Tai Chi is three main things!

Tai Chi is not as linear as wing chun. Thus swinging arms generate more force than linear. But also swinging arms are slower than straight punches!

Tai Chi doesn't attack first. Wing Chun strikes first. Tai Chi waits for the opponent to strike so it can counter. Tai Chi is about Defense. Wing Chun is about Offense.

Tai Chi doesn't predominantly rely on striking. Although wing chun has uprooting techniques with in its forms like Chum Kiu and the Mook Yan Jong. Uprooting, pushing and Pulling is not the main focus of Wing Chun. Tai Chi seeks to throw you down on the ground preferably on your cranium. Wing Chun seeks to strike you on the centerline (conceptual meridian line) repeately with intense speed and short power.

Of course the critics will say there are alot of more differences to WC and Tai Chi and TC also adheres to a centerline theory. But in reality the Center line is not stressed in any Tai Chi i have studied. I have studied Yang, Hunyuan briefly and other forms of Chen. I have met with other people who practiced Tai Chi as well over the years. I seek not to argue what you think you know of Tai Chi just sharing my opionin...


in retrospect...

I spoke of the difference between Yang and Chen structure.

Yang structure is more mobile in it use of substantial and nonsubstantial to generate force. Chen is more double weighted and doesn't sink or draw back in the stance as much as Yang does. Nor does it push forward as far as Yang. Chen Stances is far less committing similiar to WC with subtle movements. Since Chen doesn't have long stances like Yang to generate force they utilize fajing to add to their power. The Fajin accompanied with a subtle movements of the stance allow for alot of power when striking. Where as Yang uses deep sinking stances to absorb energy and far reaching pushes is not accompanied with Fajin. Yang has a stronger push and pull than chen or Wing Chun. Yang has stronger base for repeling people and pulling them greater distances than chen does. Where as Chen Strikes are far more menencing with the Fajin behind it.

But a Yang Stylist who applies Fajin is twice as horrifying!


In my experience, the moment that you get hold of your Taiji opponent, the Taiji push hand soon turn into wrestling match. Should Taiji PH be different from wrestling? Why do you even need Taiji PH if it's no different from wrestling? I just don't have answer for that.

[imperialtaichi]

In theory. Tai Chi shouldnt be mere brute on brute strength wrestling...Although contrary to popular belief. Tai Chi Ain't 100% Soft. It is Yin and Yang. Soft and Hard like WC. The Push is hard, guiding force into nothingness is soft!

Even the push is not hard. But the effect is hard.

A low level Tai Chi guy lines up his own body so he can push back with a very strong structure.

A top level guy lines up his opponent's structure so he can bounce out his opponent with two single points e.g. 2 fingers (of course, during practice only). In real fight, it would be two palms or Yin and Yang halves of a single palm or the first and second knuckles etc.

In real fights, a top level Tai Chi person would seem amazing strong to the opponent and the people watching. The "yielding" is invisible, virtually no perceivable structure. It can often be mistaken as brute force. It is done by removing the opponent's balance as soon as contact occurs. It does not take much force to push a refrigerator over when you have already placed it on it's edge.

This is not a Tai Chi forum so I won't elaborate on the method.

Cheers,
John

[Yoshiyahu]

Thans i agree with most of what you said. I disagree with the fact that you dont use power, strenght or hard force when you strike or push. I agree with the utilization of your opponents structure to repel or uproot him with your structure. But that is also accompanied with Force. The Ging is that force. With out Yang how can Yin travel? With out Yin how can you fully express your Yang?




Even the push is not hard. But the effect is hard.

A low level Tai Chi guy lines up his own body so he can push back with a very strong structure.

A top level guy lines up his opponent's structure so he can bounce out his opponent with two single points e.g. 2 fingers (of course, during practice only). In real fight, it would be two palms or Yin and Yang halves of a single palm or the first and second knuckles etc.

In real fights, a top level Tai Chi person would seem amazing strong to the opponent and the people watching. The "yielding" is invisible, virtually no perceivable structure. It can often be mistaken as brute force. It is done by removing the opponent's balance as soon as contact occurs. It does not take much force to push a refrigerator over when you have already placed it on it's edge.

This is not a Tai Chi forum so I won't elaborate on the method.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

Thans i agree with most of what you said. I disagree with the fact that you dont use power, strenght or hard force when you strike or push. I agree with the utilization of your opponents structure to repel or uproot him with your structure. But that is also accompanied with Force. The Ging is that force. With out Yang how can Yin travel? With out Yin how can you fully express your Yang?

避實就虛，以虛帶實。
"avoid the substantial and embrace the in-substantial, using the in-substantial to take over the substantial."
Not the best translation, but that's the best I can do :o

Yoshi, you understand the first half. All Tai Chi practitioners understand the first half.

But the first half is not the purpose; it is to facilitate the second half. The second half is the purpose.

If you use the "in-substantial" to take away the opponent's force, as soon as you start using force it reverts back to the substantial, and the opponent will sense you and be able to fight back. This is why most Tai Chi push hands turns back into force against force. You might as well not be empty the first place ;)

Our aim is to turn the interaction between you and your opponent into the dynamics of a Yin Yang sign. Lets say the black half is yin and the white half is yang. We are not trying to use the black half then switching back to the the white half; that's just kindergarten. We are using the "white dot" which is the "true yang" within the black half.

That's all I'll say. I hope I didn't bore anyone. If we ever meet up, I will show you.

Cheers,
John

[mjw]

^^^
I get that insubstantial to take over the substantial thats like being a mist where when one attacks you basically aren't there.

Kind of like when in WC we shift and their force goes to where we aren't......

[Fa Xing]

The idea is to "not be there" but also, and more important, is to lead the opponent in a place where natural structure and strength makes you ten times stronger, and them ten times weaker.

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent post and you are very correct. When you speak of not butting force with force. Tai Chi does infact use substantial and non-substantial in my opinion. when an opponent is advancing you roll back or ward off. You don't retreat. You are still attacking. But you are swallowing their energy thus disrupting their structure or uprooting them. The uprooting is your simultaneous attack and defend. Yin and Yang. In Tai Chi you don't attack a opponent with a strong structure intact. You disrupt him an strike simultaneously. In substantial and to non-substantial I am speaking in laymans terms to not being doubled weighted. What i mean is I do not ever stand in fifty fifty stance. Not even my hands, fingers, knees or arms are double weighted. The breathe is not double weighted it fluidly cycles from in and out.

Same with substantial to nonsubstantial. I am not saying try to over power your opponent. I am saying once his energy is dissipated and turn off then you can strike with force unoppose.

Tai chi uses bigger circles than Wing Chun. Its about going around your opponents strength and attacking where he is weak.

You are right with in the White circle there is a black circle. and with in the black circle there is a white circle.

If you are soft. You are not completely weak. You have one ounce of yang with in your yin!

When you are hard you are not stiff and rigid but fluid. You have a one ounce of Yin in your yang.

You cant carry Chi with out external energy. You can not expel external force with out internal energy! If your too hard you will not be fluid but stiff and robotic. If your too soft you will not be strong but weak with no structure!

Lik covers chi. Chi is with in Lik!

How else can Jing be manifested with out Lik or with out Chi?



避實就虛，以虛帶實。
"avoid the substantial and embrace the in-substantial, using the in-substantial to take over the substantial."
Not the best translation, but that's the best I can do :o

Yoshi, you understand the first half. All Tai Chi practitioners understand the first half.

But the first half is not the purpose; it is to facilitate the second half. The second half is the purpose.

If you use the "in-substantial" to take away the opponent's force, as soon as you start using force it reverts back to the substantial, and the opponent will sense you and be able to fight back. This is why most Tai Chi push hands turns back into force against force. You might as well not be empty the first place ;)

Our aim is to turn the interaction between you and your opponent into the dynamics of a Yin Yang sign. Lets say the black half is yin and the white half is yang. We are not trying to use the black half then switching back to the the white half; that's just kindergarten. We are using the "white dot" which is the "true yang" within the black half.

That's all I'll say. I hope I didn't bore anyone. If we ever meet up, I will show you.

Cheers,
John