The snake characteristics embeded in the wck three set

[Hendrik]

Wck snake engine in the general three sets is The motion with circular derive motion as lead and wave like or snake slide type of motion supporting the leading motion.

This is different then the taiji reel silk where it is circular motion.

Wck is not white crane because white crane doesn't do this specific cirular + snake slide type of waving.

This type of snake engine is not founded in shao Lin, both north or southern shaolin too.

In china tcma history, there is only one source of this type of motion, and that is emei system.


So why do we care? Because we have found the way to practice the sets as they were deign .

[kung fu fighter]

Wck snake engine in the general three sets is The motion with circular derive motion as lead and wave like or snake slide type of motion supporting the leading motion.

This is different then the taiji reel silk where it is circular motion.

Wck is not white crane because white crane doesn't do this specific cirular + snake slide type of waving.

This type of snake engine is not founded in shao Lin, both north or southern shaolin too.

In china tcma history, there is only one source of this type of motion, and that is emei system.


So why do we care? Because we have found the way to practice the sets as they were deign .

Hey Hendrik,

Great explanation in your youtube clips of Yik Kam's 6D and 4 Core cycles

it would be nice to see a clip of how the snake engine is done in the 3 sets, as well as some applications of the main techniques from the sets using the snake engine.

[Hendrik]

Hey Hendrik,

Great explanation in your youtube clips of Yik Kam's 6D and 4 Core cycles

it would be nice to see a clip of how the snake engine is done in the 3 sets, as well as some applications of the main techniques from the sets using the snake engine.

Good idea.

However, it is more practical to learn those from a sifu in person because it is involve with details and multidimensional dynamics.



For me, snake engine's lively , changes, handling, and flow is like the main violin play ( 0 up to the 3.4 ) of the following clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu6Hr9kd-U0

So, if i was ask to describe it to a tcma ima pratitioner, I will asked him to listen to the above clip. It is beyond words. They will know the beauty of the snake jing in slt.

[Phil Redmond]

I was taught snake engine as well as crane and fox. I can't wait for the replies to this post. . .

[LoneTiger108]

Wck snake engine in the general three sets is The motion with circular derive motion as lead and wave like or snake slide type of motion supporting the leading motion.

Which general three sets are you referring to here Hendrik? SLT, CK & BJ or the '3 sections' of the common SLT?

Either way, I fully support the idea of a 'snake engine' being a part of Wing Chun, but I must also say that the 'crane engine' has definite equal status.

As for the fox? Hmmm those crafty Brits lol!! ;) :D

[Hendrik]

Which general three sets are you referring to here Hendrik? SLT, CK & BJ or the '3 sections' of the common SLT?

Either way, I fully support the idea of a 'snake engine' being a part of Wing Chun, but I must also say that the 'crane engine' has definite equal status.

As for the fox? Hmmm those crafty Brits lol!! ;) :D

Slt, ck, bj.

Crane is the center line, it is always there.

[LoneTiger108]

Slt, ck, bj.

Crane is the center line, it is always there.

Okay. That helps me a little.

For me, and the way I was trained, the two animals have distinctive power generation methods too, as much as different characters, strategies and 'looks'.

We used to simly refer to this method of teaching as Yum Yeurng (Yin Yang) :) so it would be interesting to hear more specifics on the snake engine you describe.

[imperialtaichi]

This is different then the taiji reel silk where it is circular motion.

Silk reeling is not circular. It's spiral.

[Vajramusti]

Silk reeling is not circular. It's spiral.
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Correct!

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

Silk reeling is not circular. It's spiral.

Sorry for my english.

[wtxs]

Wck snake engine in the general three sets is The motion with circular derive motion as lead and wave like or snake slide type of motion supporting the leading motion.


Silk reeling is not circular. It's spiral.

You are both correct, both motions are derived from the forward/reverse motion of the circular movement, it differs only in its execution.

[Alan Orr]

Wck snake engine in the general three sets is The motion with circular derive motion as lead and wave like or snake slide type of motion supporting the leading motion.

This is different then the taiji reel silk where it is circular motion.

Wck is not white crane because white crane doesn't do this specific cirular + snake slide type of waving.

This type of snake engine is not founded in shao Lin, both north or southern shaolin too.

In china tcma history, there is only one source of this type of motion, and that is emei system.


So why do we care? Because we have found the way to practice the sets as they were deign .

Great post!

[Hendrik]

You are both correct, both motions are derived from the forward/reverse motion of the circular movement, it differs only in its execution.

Yes, differs in execution.

Taiji reel silk is spiral started from Dan dian leading spiral of the body.

WCK is spiral started in the tip of fingers support by s shape waving or snake slide of the body.
Ie. power point explosion.

These are Two different arts.




One easy way to spot the differences arts.

1. See which part is the lead, ie. tai ji reel silk start with Dan Dian rotation.

2. See if the body or body parts such as shoulder hold on. Ie. hung gar iron wire, white crane, spm, hold on the body or shoulder...etc with its stance while the hand move.

[nasmedicine]

For me, snake engine's lively , changes, handling, and flow is like the main violin player

That's how all fighting/martial arts/skilled activities should be any ways, regardless of if you want to call it snake engine, flowing, tango, or jamming on ones electric guitar. Flow = sum of moments from point A to point ? = Infinity

[Yoshiyahu]

Hands Like Swimming Dragons, Body like Crane!


Slt, ck, bj.

Crane is the center line, it is always there.

[Hendrik]

That's how all fighting/martial arts/skilled activities should be any ways, regardless of if you want to call it snake engine, flowing, tango, or jamming on ones electric guitar. Flow = sum of moments from point A to point ? = Infinity


I choose vilvaldi winter violin silvery pizzicato for a specific reason to describe a particular type of jin or force.

Also, emei snake, taiji reel silk, shao Lin ..... There all can flow but not the same type.


Violin, drum, sax, guitar..... There are not the same .

[nasmedicine]

I choose vilvaldi winter violin silvery pizzicato for a specific reason to describe a particular type of jin or force.

Also, emei snake, taiji reel silk, shao Lin ..... There all can flow but not the same type.


Violin, drum, sax, guitar..... There are not the same .

I see what you are saying, however my viewpoint is quite simple - It doesn't matter what the instrument is instead it's how the person plays that matters. (they control the type of energy they issue - playing Spanish guitar (light) vs. heavy metal on guitar (harsh))

i.e. are you playing from memorization/reading sheet music, by ear, or are you a virtuoso.

Memorization (low level and most likely stuck to that particular instrument),
By ear ( higher level, no need to read, can feel the notes and play them back- still most likely only able to play very well on one instrument which some knowledge of others),
Virtuoso (very high level if not highest, doesn't care about the instrument, can compose completely new music at will - dynamic)

Though I do see how you are structuring your explanation the above is my opinion. Regardless, thank you for sharing your knowledge.

[Hendrik]

I see what you are saying, however my viewpoint is quite simple - It doesn't matter what the instrument is instead it's how the person plays that matters. (they control the type of energy they issue - playing Spanish guitar (light) vs. heavy metal on guitar (harsh))

i.e. are you playing from memorization/reading sheet music, by ear, or are you a virtuoso.

Memorization (low level and most likely stuck to that particular instrument),
By ear ( higher level, no need to read, can feel the notes and play them back- still most likely only able to play very well on one instrument which some knowledge of others),
Virtuoso (very high level if not highest, doesn't care about the instrument, can compose completely new music at will - dynamic)

Though I do see how you are structuring your explanation the above is my opinion. Regardless, thank you for sharing your knowledge.

Thanks for your ideas.

For me,

Vivaldi winter violin has a characteristics of. Multiple Changes within continuity, fast acceleration as needed. Clear impulse within continuity, Light Soft to power burst in an instant. Strong buid up power burst.....That is how the snake engine could express its Jin. Thus, listen to the Vivaldi winter is like feeling the snake engine's Jin.

[YouKnowWho]

It doesn't matter snake engine or crane engine, it's whether you can deliever your power on your opponent's body, that matter. How can we talk about TCMA as if the word "opponent" doesn't even exist?

Can we see some applications out of those "snake engine" or "crane engine"?

[nasmedicine]

Thanks for your ideas.

For me,

Vivaldi winter violin has a characteristics of. Multiple Changes within continuity, fast acceleration as needed. Clear impulse within continuity, Light Soft to power burst in an instant. Strong buid up power burst.....That is how the snake engine could express its Jin. Thus, listen to the Vivaldi winter is like feeling the snake engine's Jin.

Now I understand what you were trying to convey earlier, I feel that we are talking about very similar things except that our individual terminology and presentation is different. In the past I've read many posts however yours always stood out to me. This is mainly due to the fact that "I get" what you are trying to convey. My sifu has a very similar philosophy/logic/application. However labels are just that...labels. I've said this before in another post but I'll it again. Truth is Truth. If you are ever in the NYC/Tristate area I would enjoy meeting up and elaborating on things written words can not really describe (generally speaking, its hard enough trying to explain on a forum and then on video something that can only be understood through transmission - requires contact)

[Robinhood]

It doesn't matter snake engine or crane engine, it's whether you can deliever your power on your opponent's body, that matter. How can we talk about TCMA as if the word "opponent" doesn't even exist?

Can we see some applications out of those "snake engine" or "crane engine"?

I don't think you would be able to see it in video, unless you know what you are looking at, you would probably have to feel it, IMO.

Maybe Henrick can recommend someone that can give you some lessons.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't think you would be able to see it in video, unless you know what you are looking at, you would probably have to feel it, IMO.
Please don't use "internal cannot be seen in clip" as execuse. Some forum members eyes are much sharper that you can ever image.


Maybe Henrick can recommend someone that can give you some lessons.
Instead of suggest Henrick to recommand someone, why don't you give me some lessons yourself?

[Robinhood]

Please don't use "internal cannot be seen in clip" as execuse. Some forum members eyes are much sharper that you can ever image.


Instead of suggest Henrick to recommand someone, why don't you give me some lessons yourself?

I don't know if I have snake engine, but what's in it for me, IBM stock ?

[Hendrik]

Now I understand what you were trying to convey earlier, I feel that we are talking about very similar things except that our individual terminology and presentation is different. In the past I've read many posts however yours always stood out to me. This is mainly due to the fact that "I get" what you are trying to convey. My sifu has a very similar philosophy/logic/application. However labels are just that...labels. I've said this before in another post but I'll it again. Truth is Truth. If you are ever in the NYC/Tristate area I would enjoy meeting up and elaborating on things written words can not really describe (generally speaking, its hard enough trying to explain on a forum and then on video something that can only be understood through transmission - requires contact)

Thanks!

Actually, we are family because I am a grand student of ven. Hsu Yun. Via my sifu Ven. Hsuan Hua.

[Hendrik]

It doesn't matter snake engine or crane engine, it's whether you can deliever your power on your opponent's body, that matter. How can we talk about TCMA as if the word "opponent" doesn't even exist?

Can we see some applications out of those "snake engine" or "crane engine"?

You always like to jump steps. Hahaha

One first has to know it, the one has to develop it, then one uses it with opponent's. that is scientific tcma .

So now, one has to know it first.

[nasmedicine]

Thanks!

Actually, we are family because I am a grand student of ven. Hsu Yun. Via my sifu Ven. Hsuan Hua.

Oh?! Excellent! I should greet you as cousin then! This would explain our like mindedness. :)

[nasmedicine]

I don't think you would be able to see it in video, unless you know what you are looking at, you would probably have to feel it, IMO.

Maybe Henrick can recommend someone that can give you some lessons.

@ YouKnowWho - Robinhood did state that only those who know what they are looking at would know. You are probably one of them so don't get offended so easily. :)

[Hendrik]

Oh?! Excellent! I should greet you as cousin then! This would explain our like mindedness. :)

Thanks!
Great to know you.

[LoneTiger108]

Yes, differs in execution.

Taiji reel silk is spiral started from Dan dian leading spiral of the body.

WCK is spiral started in the tip of fingers support by s shape waving or snake slide of the body.

Are we going down the road of "body leading hand/hand leading body" ideas again Hendrik? Because I understand what you're trying to convey, but I personally don't think that this 'snake engine' stuff is all us Wing Chun guys are or should be about.

Again, what about the Crane engine? And what do you call the combination of both Snake & Crane engines?? Because THAT is more likely where we should be heading IMHO.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It doesn't matter snake engine or crane engine, it's whether you can deliever your power on your opponent's body, that matter. How can we talk about TCMA as if the word "opponent" doesn't even exist?

Can we see some applications out of those "snake engine" or "crane engine"?

John has toe kicked the correct.
You can call it whatever you like, give it any name you like -snake engine, crane engine, dragon engine or reptile brain or "c" back posture, etc, etc.
Names are just that.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1149135]John has toe kicked the correct.

((I don't think so. Hendrik was not just using a name- he has specific way of moving energy in mind.
I don't do Hendrik's yik kam wing chun but I have a sense for what he is saying. But IMO Hendrik's wc is not the only one that does it.))

joy

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1149135]John has toe kicked the correct.

((I don't think so. Hendrik was not just using a name- he has specific way of moving energy in mind.
I don't do Hendrik's yik kam wing chun but I have a sense for what he is saying. But IMO Hendrik's wc is not the only one that does it.))

joy

Yes, agree.

[Hendrik]

John has toe kicked the correct.
You can call it whatever you like, give it any name you like -snake engine, crane engine, dragon engine or reptile brain or "c" back posture, etc, etc.
Names are just that.



A violin cannot be a drum or a sax.

How they sound and how to play them are different.

I have describe the specific on what is it for the snake engine why it is different with other style in handling power .

Unless one knows the details and the different, one will not get it clear when fajing is describe.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A violin cannot be a drum or a sax.

How they sound and how to play them are different.

I have describe the specific on what is it for the snake engine why it is different with other style in handling power .

Unless one knows the details and the different, one will not get it clear when fajing is describe.

By the VERY SAME token Hendrick, humans are NOT reptiles or birds or anything other than ****sapiens and can't play ANYTHING other than in that way, regardless of what name you wanna put to it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1149135]John has toe kicked the correct.

((I don't think so. Hendrik was not just using a name- he has specific way of moving energy in mind.
I don't do Hendrik's yik kam wing chun but I have a sense for what he is saying. But IMO Hendrik's wc is not the only one that does it.))

joy

I don't think you got my point or Johns and it was quite simply this:
humans are NOT reptiles or birds or anything other than ****sapiens and can't play ANYTHING other than in that way, regardless of what name you wanna put to it.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=

I don't think you got my point or Johns and it was quite simply this:
humans are NOT reptiles or birds or anything other than ****sapiens and can't play ANYTHING other than in that way, regardless of what name you wanna put to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No- I got that point... but by the same token neither you or John noticing the other story.
The snake and current analogy is just suggestive- pointing to possible usage of natural motions and principles. Speaking for myself (not Hendrik necessarily)- the path of a rifle bullet upon firing involves a spiral forward motion to the target after the firing.

John's posts often attempt to skim across TCMA- sometimes breadth without depth- specially where good Ip man WC is involved.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1149156]
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No- I got that point... but by the same token neither you or John noticing the other story.
The snake and current analogy is just suggestive- pointing to possible usage of natural motions and principles. Speaking for myself (not Hendrik necessarily)- the path of a rifle bullet upon firing involves a spiral forward motion to the target after the firing.

John's posts often attempt to skim across TCMA- sometimes breadth without depth- specially where good Ip man WC is involved.

joy chaudhuri

I understand that and agree, I just don't think that is what Hendrick is saying.
He seems to imply that one can ONLY have (for example) fajing in WC IF they have this snake engine and that any other way is NOT correct and NOT Fajing and that other systems do NOT have fajing because they do not have the snake engine.
Or at least that is what it sounds like, correct Hendrick?

[LoneTiger108]

I don't do Hendrik's yik kam wing chun but I have a sense for what he is saying. But IMO Hendrik's wc is not the only one that does it.

I second that sir!! ;)

[YouKnowWho]

John's posts often attempt to skim across TCMA- sometimes breadth without depth- specially where good Ip man WC is involved.

Some people like to find "difference" between styles. Others like to find "similiarity" between styles.

[Vajramusti]

Some people like to find "difference" between styles. Others like to find "similiarity" between styles.
--------------------------------------------------------------
One has to understand a style to compare it.

[YouKnowWho]

--------------------------------------------------------------
One has to understand a style to compare it.

With 38 years of WC training, if one still can't compare it with other TCMA styles. he may need to get a rope, find a quite place, and hang himself.

[Eric_H]

With 38 years of WC training, if one still can't compare it with other TCMA styles. he may need to get a rope, find a quite place, and hang himself.

Post of the year 2011.

[Hendrik]

By the VERY SAME token Hendrick, humans are NOT reptiles or birds or anything other than ****sapiens and can't play ANYTHING other than in that way, regardless of what name you wanna put to it.

I am not talking become a dragon or eagle.
I am presenting there are different ways of doing movementum with human body. And the Chinese has practiced those for hundreds of years. They label it reel silk, snake....ect.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am not talking become a dragon or eagle.
I am presenting there are different ways of doing movementum with human body. And the Chinese has practiced those for hundreds of years. They label it reel silk, snake....ect.

Ok, I get that and understand that need/use for those types of terminology THEN.
Why now?
Do you not feel that there are modern terms we can use know to convey those very things? perhaps better even?

[Yoshiyahu]

What the purpose of this thread again?

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1149166]

I understand that and agree, I just don't think that is what Hendrick is saying.
He seems to imply that one can ONLY have (for example) fajing in WC IF they have this snake engine and that any other way is NOT correct and NOT Fajing and that other systems do NOT have fajing because they do not have the snake engine.
Or at least that is what it sounds like, correct Hendrick?

I am not implying anything but presenting things explicitly in a define able manner.

Tai ji reel silk engine is not WCK snake engine. Hung gar iron wire engine is not WCK snake engine. Using a different engine to power WCK will not give the characteristics as it is designed and mean for.

[Hendrik]

With 38 years of WC training, if one still can't compare it with other TCMA styles. he may need to get a rope, find a quite place, and hang himself.

John,
You train wc for 38 years?

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1149168]

I am not implying anything but presenting things explicitly in a define able manner.

Tai ji reel silk engine is not WCK snake engine. Hung gar iron wire engine is not WCK snake engine. Using a different engine to power WCK will not give the characteristics as it is designed and mean for.

Indeed, and this is what are ARE saying, that the "snake engine" is unique to WC, correct?
Or at least YOUR WC's snake engine, yes?

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1149220]

Indeed, and this is what are ARE saying, that the "snake engine" is unique to WC, correct?
Or at least YOUR WC's snake engine, yes?


For me, yes or not, unique, mine, yours..... Is not my point. My point is to tell what it is as it is.


It is a fact that
Snake engine is the technology of emei system.
reel silk is the technology of taiji.
Different technology produces different characteristics in power signature and result.


WCK is created with the fusion of white cane center line and emei snake engine.
These are the traceable and identifiable facts.
To activate the WCK sets as they were designed one needs to use the engines which it was deigned with.

One sure can free to evolve one's own WCK but that is no longer as it was designed.

[Vajramusti]

With 38 years of WC training, if one still can't compare it with other TCMA styles. he may need to get a rope, find a quite place, and hang himself.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
funny guy!

[JPinAZ]

WCK is created with the fusion of white cane center line and emei snake engine.
These are the traceable and identifiable facts..

REally, the only tracable 'fact' is that your WC may come from these 2 things. Now, that doesn't mean that WC doesn't have flavors/signatures of snake and crane. But WC is not white crane and not emei snake. WC is WC and WC engine is WC engine. Why do people keep looking in the past and making WC so complicated?


To activate the WCK sets as they were designed one needs to use the engines which it was deigned with.

WCK can only be 'activated' against an opponent, not in some set. The engine is only able to be realised in action against a live opponent with live energy. Not sitting in a chair talking about it on a forum or youtube, or doing solo sets, etc. (and yes, the solo 'sets' do have their place in development)
Again, there is only WCK engine. Sure, there are signatures of crane, snake. But there are also signatures of dragon, eagle, etc. But really, it is still just WCK.


One sure can free to evolve one's own WCK but that is no longer as it was designed.

You're not making sense, and have it backwards IMO. WCK is already 'evolved' into what it we have today - Wing Chun. It's that simple. I think you are the one looking at WCK 'no longer designed as it was' with your obsession of snake and crane..

[JPinAZ]

Are we going down the road of "body leading hand/hand leading body" ideas again Hendrik? Because I understand what you're trying to convey, but I personally don't think that this 'snake engine' stuff is all us Wing Chun guys are or should be about.

Again, what about the Crane engine? And what do you call the combination of both Snake & Crane engines?? Because THAT is more likely where we should be heading IMHO.

I agree and we're already there - it's called Wing Chun :) But WC isn't just a combination of Snake and Crane. Actually, it could be thought of as the opposite. It's about giving up ideas of trying to fight like animals and instead fighting like a human being. Sure some of the signatures of the 'movement' from a lot of arts are there, but that's logical since you can only move so many ways.
And at times, yes, we do move with snake and crane engine signatures. But that doesn't make what we do snake or crane.

To me, it seems like Hendrick is looking at some pretty basic/common knowledge stuff and trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. my opinion anyway, but it makes for some interesting threads :)

** For those that are interest, Eric wrote an interesting article on this subject here: http://hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3087

[Hendrik]

REally, the only tracable 'fact' is that your WC may come from these 2 things. Now, that doesn't mean that WC doesn't have flavors/signatures of snake and crane. But WC is not white crane and not emei snake. WC is WC and WC engine is WC engine. Why do people keep looking in the past and making WC so complicated?



WCK can only be 'activated' against an opponent, not in some set. The engine is only able to be realised in action against a live opponent with live energy. Not sitting in a chair talking about it on a forum or youtube, or doing solo sets, etc. (and yes, the solo 'sets' do have their place in development)
Again, there is only WCK engine. Sure, there are signatures of crane, snake. But there are also signatures of dragon, eagle, etc. But really, it is still just WCK.



You're not making sense, and have it backwards IMO. WCK is already 'evolved' into what it we have today - Wing Chun. It's that simple. I think you are the one looking at WCK 'no longer designed as it was' with your obsession of snake and crane..


Want to see snake engine within wck across Lineages in china?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4eWIAYvf9Q


Want to see white crane cousin of WCK?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NKROC5mS1c

[Hendrik]

Ok, I get that and understand that need/use for those types of terminology THEN.
Why now?
Do you not feel that there are modern terms we can use know to convey those very things? perhaps better even?

Using the ancient terminology will make possible for the westerner to familiar with it to dig deep into the ancient Chinese treasure in the decades to come when more and more communication with china happening.

[YouKnowWho]

Snake engine is the technology of emei system.
reel silk is the technology of taiji.

If you have trained both emei and Taiji, which engine do you have in your body? If you also train Baji and XYLH then what engine do you have in your body? Will it be possible to have 4 different engines in your body at the same time? Or you will just have one engine and that's "your personal engine".

[Hendrik]

If you have trained both emei and Taiji, which engine do you have in your body?

You cannot develop two type of Kung in your body mind.

[Hendrik]

If you have trained both emei and Taiji, which engine do you have in your body? If you also train Baji and XYLH then what engine do you have in your body? Will it be possible to have 4 different engines in your body at the same time? Or you will just have one engine and that's "your personal engine".

You need to be similar to Chang San fung to combine the 4.

I am happy to have one cultivate to a certain depth.

[EternalSpring]

You cannot develop two type of Kung in your body mind.

This doesn't make sense imo. So you're saying that Ving Tsun is the result of emei snake and white crane and that being able to use the snake engine is important while at the same time saying that one cannot develop two types of kung fu in his/her body.

[YouKnowWho]

You cannot develop two type of Kung in your body mind.
Do you go to school just to take 1 course? Or do you go to school to take many courses?

Students who gradulated from Nanjing Martial Arts Academy all had to train Taiji, XingYi, Bagua, Baji, longfist, SC, boxing, ... How did those old TCMA masters develop their different Kung on their body?
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When the Nanjing Martial Arts Academy was founded, the government called on all martial arts teachers to help the country and teach their art at the school. Many of the instructors responded. Some came to teach at the Nanjing school while others taught at the provincial schools. The schools curriculum was divided into two main categories, Shaolin styles (which included Shaolin boxing, Cha Ch'uan, Tan T'ui, and Pa Chi) and Wu Tang styles (which included T'ai Chi Ch'uan, Hsing-I Ch'uan, Pa Kua Chang, and Liu Ho Pa Fa). When the school was founded, Wang Tzu-P'ing was head of the Shaolin systems (current as of the time this article was written, Wang's daughter, Wang Ju-Rong, and granddaughter Grace Wu, live and teach in the United States) and Kao Cheng-Tung was head of the Wu Tang systems. Other instructors who taught at the Nanjing school included Yang Ch'eng-Fu (T'ai Chi Ch'uan), Wu Chin-Shan (Pa Kua, T'ai Chi), Sun Lu-Tang (Pa Kua) Ma Hong-Tu (Pa Chi), Yang Sung-Shan (Tan Tuei), Sun Yu-Ming (Cha Ch'uan), Wu I-Hui (Liu Ho Pa Fa), Fu Chen-Sung (Pa Kua), Yin Yu-Chang (Pa Kua), Chiang Jung-Ch'aio (Pa Kua, Hsing-I, T'ai Chi), Huang Po-Nien (Hsing-I, Pa Kua), Wang Yuen-Pung (Tuei Fa), and Ma Hsin-Yun (Pao Ting Suei Chiao). Some of the founders of the schools at the provincial level included: Ch'en P'an-Ling in Henan; Niu Yun-Chien in Kiang Su; Li Hun-Kun in Sichuan; Wan Lai-Sheng in Hunan; and Li Ching-Lin in Shantung.


You need to be similar to Chang San fung to combine the 4.

I am happy to have one cultivate to a certain depth.
You would never be able to gradulate from Nanjing Martial Arts Academy if go back in time.

[Hendrik]

This doesn't make sense imo. So you're saying that Ving Tsun is the result of emei snake and white crane and that being able to use the snake engine is important while at the same time saying that one cannot develop two types of kung fu in his/her body.

There is fusion but there are trade off.
WCK give up white crane San chin structure and using the yjkym in slt.

[Hendrik]

Do you go to school just to take 1 course? Or do you go to school to take many courses?

Students who gradulated from Nanjing Martial Arts Academy all had to train Taiji, XingYi, Bagua, Baji, longfist, SC, boxing, ... How did those old TCMA masters develop their different Kung on their body?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When the Nanjing Martial Arts Academy was founded, the government called on all martial arts teachers to help the country and teach their art at the school. Many of the instructors responded. Some came to teach at the Nanjing school while others taught at the provincial schools. The schools curriculum was divided into two main categories, Shaolin styles (which included Shaolin boxing, Cha Ch'uan, Tan T'ui, and Pa Chi) and Wu Tang styles (which included T'ai Chi Ch'uan, Hsing-I Ch'uan, Pa Kua Chang, and Liu Ho Pa Fa). When the school was founded, Wang Tzu-P'ing was head of the Shaolin systems (current as of the time this article was written, Wang's daughter, Wang Ju-Rong, and granddaughter Grace Wu, live and teach in the United States) and Kao Cheng-Tung was head of the Wu Tang systems. Other instructors who taught at the Nanjing school included Yang Ch'eng-Fu (T'ai Chi Ch'uan), Wu Chin-Shan (Pa Kua, T'ai Chi), Sun Lu-Tang (Pa Kua) Ma Hong-Tu (Pa Chi), Yang Sung-Shan (Tan Tuei), Sun Yu-Ming (Cha Ch'uan), Wu I-Hui (Liu Ho Pa Fa), Fu Chen-Sung (Pa Kua), Yin Yu-Chang (Pa Kua), Chiang Jung-Ch'aio (Pa Kua, Hsing-I, T'ai Chi), Huang Po-Nien (Hsing-I, Pa Kua), Wang Yuen-Pung (Tuei Fa), and Ma Hsin-Yun (Pao Ting Suei Chiao). Some of the founders of the schools at the provincial level included: Ch'en P'an-Ling in Henan; Niu Yun-Chien in Kiang Su; Li Hun-Kun in Sichuan; Wan Lai-Sheng in Hunan; and Li Ching-Lin in Shantung.


You would never be able to gradulate from Nanjing Martial Arts Academy if go back in time.

I learn kyokushin's, WCK, judo, shaolin loan, Xing yi, taiji applications, but my body development is WCK snake based. I can mimic real silk but I don't have Kung fu as the Chen taiji expert. My based is not that.

[nasmedicine]

I learn kyokushin's, WCK, judo, shaolin loan, Xing yi, taiji applications, but my body development is WCK snake based. I can mimic real silk but I don't have Kung fu as the Chen taiji expert. My based is not that.

IMHO:

Exactly, your foundation is with you for life, from that you can learn other things but, if I may use Hendrik's terminology, the "engine" behind your new skills will be whatever most of your foundation training is in. When I play push hands with Tai Chi people I am not using a "tai chi engine" yet I can move, flow, exchange with them. If one where to look they might think I knew Tai Chi. Matter of fact, many times I've been asked by people I've played push hands with, "What style of Tai Chi do you practice?" I smile and tell them, I have never trained Tai Chi in my life. :)

note: It is possible to transform and change your foundation, however this is like starting all over again and you would have to give up all the habits from before, "give up the old engine for a new one", because like Hendrik correctly stated you can not have two at the same time. Two "engines" is sort of like being a jack of all trades for a master of none.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Using the ancient terminology will make possible for the westerner to familiar with it to dig deep into the ancient Chinese treasure in the decades to come when more and more communication with china happening.

While I don't agree I certainly respect your views and see your points and greatly appreciate the video clips yo have been posting.

[LoneTiger108]

I agree and we're already there - it's called Wing Chun :) But WC isn't just a combination of Snake and Crane.

I understand where you are coming from, but for me the concentration is on the Snake & Crane combination, just as Hung Gar is Tiger & Crane.

And so, if what we all do is Wing Chun, what is the term we commonly use to express our power base, or 'engine' as Hendrik likes to call it?? I can tell you now, we do not refer to it as 'snake engine' on it's own. That for me is simply inaccurate and unbalanced.


And at times, yes, we do move with snake and crane engine signatures. But that doesn't make what we do snake or crane.

No it doesn't that makes us Wing Chun specifically, because that's our core (or should be our core according to my own research and training!) And fme it isn't just about how we move.

As an example, we train a specific set on the wooden man that basically sheds the skin off your forearms, building 'new skin' that is tougher. This is a trait of the snakes natural character. I have also received specific heigung sets that highlight snake and crane breathing methods, as both are unique and independent.

What would happen if we just trained one??

Crane method
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKbTp42z5yA&feature=related

Snake method
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Alx-muqTZxU

Snake & Crane Method ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBv5oE5VNHg

I also really appreciate what Hendrik is trying to highlight here. It's great to share and compare, especially if it helps us all to continue to learn and develop.

[Hendrik]

While I don't agree I certainly respect your views and see your points and greatly appreciate the video clips yo have been posting.

You are welcome.

I have different views myself.

[JPinAZ]

I understand where you are coming from, but for me the concentration is on the Snake & Crane combination, just as Hung Gar is Tiger & Crane.

And so, if what we all do is Wing Chun, what is the term we commonly use to express our power base, or 'engine' as Hendrik likes to call it?? I can tell you now, we do not refer to it as 'snake engine' on it's own. That for me is simply inaccurate and unbalanced.

That's cool, people can concentrate on whatever they like, I'm not trying to tell someone what they can/can't do :)
My point to Hendrick is, all WC is not simply a fusion of Emei Snake and Crane as he is implying. Could be very true for his WC, but that's where that 'fact' ends.

IMO, WC engine should be called WC Body Engine. From the clips shared here (and from my own experience), it's obvious snake and crane sets/engines have different ideas about self body centerline, stances and footwork than WCK. Can someone say 'hey, some of that looks like WC!" - sure. But you could say that looking at just about any MA clip to some level.

For an example, in HFY we have 4-Gate Tin Yan Dein (Heaven Human Earth) and 6-Gate TYD. Both have slightly different engines, but both are WCK. And neither are necessarily snake/crane. But, in each's body application, some of the hand tools will have 'flavors' of snake and crane, but there is also eagle and dragon flavors as well. and some that are none of the above.

So again, I agree that WC does have snake and crane 'flavors', but that doesn't prove WCK=Snake+Crane. The link I provided earlier goes into this more


No it doesn't that makes us Wing Chun specifically, because that's our core (or should be our core according to my own research and training!) And fme it isn't just about how we move.

Agreed (haha, I think)


As an example, we train a specific set on the wooden man that basically sheds the skin off your forearms, building 'new skin' that is tougher. This is a trait of the snakes natural character. I have also received specific heigung sets that highlight snake and crane breathing methods, as both are unique and independent.

Not sure about that connection to the dummy and snake shedding it's skin, but interesting thought. For me, the dummy is about working on WC body methods, facing, structural alignments, etc. And a side effect is that you will toughen your bones, tendons, skin in the process.

In HFY, we have various sets that focus on breathing, tendon/bone/muscle development, etc. Could some of this knowledge come have from a culmination of information from 'other southern boxing chinese arts'? sure. IMO WCK is a result of evolving from and also away from other arts that were around in that area and at that time. But these sets are very WCK specific and are geared toward developing very WCK specific attributes and tools for a WC body. They wouldn't work for a snake or crane practitioner. That's why I mention we should be looking different arts of the past/present for what WCK is today. For me, it seems like a waste of time


What would happen if we just trained one??

Crane method
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKbTp42z5yA&feature=related

Snake method
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Alx-muqTZxU

Snake & Crane Method ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBv5oE5VNHg

I also really appreciate what Hendrik is trying to highlight here. It's great to share and compare, especially if it helps us all to continue to learn and develop.

Agree, IMO those first 2 clips have very different 'engines', stances and body methods than WCK. The first maybe closer to WCK than the second, but still is a step in the wrong direction for WCK development.

I guess I can appreciate Hendricks unending attempt to push this whole WCK=Emei+Snake thing. :rolleyes: Great if that's where he thinks his WCK comes from, but it's not true for all WCK - and certainly not my WCK. One major flaw in his 'fact' is that he is ignoring that WCK had a split in lineage in the past, and not all WCK traces it's source through the red boats.
For example, HFY comes from red boxer societies, parallel in time to when he says his art was being developed from snake/crane fusion. So it is impossible for one WCK to have already existed when, as he claims, all WCK's main source was only just being developed at the same time.

[LoneTiger108]

My point to Hendrick is, all WC is not simply a fusion of Emei Snake and Crane as he is implying. Could be very true for his WC, but that's where that 'fact' ends.

I agree and think that most will share this view.


IMO, WC engine should be called WC Body Engine.

Hmm. I'm not too keen on 'new wave' terms lol!! Haven't you got a word or words that describe specific power used in Wing Chun?


So again, I agree that WC does have snake and crane 'flavors', but that doesn't prove WCK=Snake+Crane. The link I provided earlier goes into this more

I've still to read the post you suggested, but will try to go through it later.


Not sure about that connection to the dummy and snake shedding it's skin, but interesting thought. For me, the dummy is about working on WC body methods, facing, structural alignments, etc. And a side effect is that you will toughen your bones, tendons, skin in the process.

Ah! The Pai, Gun , Gwut!! Let me ask you what do you develop first, the skin, tendons or bones??

We started with the skin, hence our wooden man drill ;) As an idea, it's the sheer speed of our fist work we use that burns hairs and skin until it bleeds (if you aint careful!) I have never really been shown a 'clonk, clonk' method of the wooden man, even my 108 sounds like a machine gun!! :D (only on good days lol!)

[JPinAZ]

I agree and think that most will share this view.

yup. Hendrick has been pushing this theory of his as 'fact' for some time now. I guess, if nothing else, it makes for interesting threads... :rolleyes:


Hmm. I'm not too keen on 'new wave' terms lol!! Haven't you got a word or words that describe specific power used in Wing Chun?

I don't like that term 'engine' much either. I just used it because that's the term being used in this thread :)

Not sure I understand exactly what you're asking (?) Power in WC could be called ging or jing. (however one wants to pronounce/spell it)
In HFY, jing energy is issued using on/off energy methods, either 0 or 1.

A more details answer would be to include the things that back this up, like having control over self-centerline, proper strucural alignment, proper points of leverage and facing using our specific reference points and contact surfaces (wrist, forearm, knuckles, elbow, palm - ie, our 'kiu).
Also, factors of box & gate-theories (which I mentioned in my previous post), come into play in determining how that energy is generated (big wheel vs little wheel).
Also understanding of or 5 energy wheel is a factor in how issue and react to various energy and fighting timeframes, which are Ying, Chung, Lau, Saat, & Fa.

Haha, is that TMI for your question? Maybe be more specific and I can give a more specific answer?


Ah! The Pai, Gun , Gwut!! Let me ask you what do you develop first, the skin, tendons or bones??

We started with the skin, hence our wooden man drill ;) As an idea, it's the sheer speed of our fist work we use that burns hairs and skin until it bleeds (if you aint careful!) I have never really been shown a 'clonk, clonk' method of the wooden man, even my 108 sounds like a machine gun!! :D (only on good days lol!)

For us, all are developed at the same time. IMO, just like in partner training, it's hard not to develop toughening of the muscle/bone/tendon/skin when doing bridge work with live energy and decent structure (whether on a dummy or your training partners).

Now, we don't 'bang' the dummy, especially not just for the sake of banging. But we don't massage it either ;) There has to be a decent amount of force issued with proper body mechanics, facing, etc. Otherwise, what's the point? We're developing fighting skills and attribues right? ;)

[Eric_H]

As an example, we train a specific set on the wooden man that basically sheds the skin off your forearms, building 'new skin' that is tougher. This is a trait of the snakes natural character. I have also received specific heigung sets that highlight snake and crane breathing methods, as both are unique and independent.


I gotta say man, that sounds freakin' disgusting.

[YouKnowWho]

If the snake engine and crane engine were in WC to start with, that is great. If not, it's a good idea to bring it into WC.

Since the Yang Taiji doesn't have "engine" (just borrow this term), some people bring crane engine into it, others brings Chen Taiji engine into it.

[JPinAZ]

If the snake engine and crane engine were in WC to start with, that is great. If not, it's a good idea to bring it into WC.

Since the Yang Taiji doesn't have "engine" (just borrow this term), some people bring crane engine into it, others brings Chen Taiji engine into it.

Why do you feel it is a good idea to bring this outside stuff into WC? (if it's not already there?)

* I don't mean this as a slight, I'm just curious why you think it should be added

[Hendrik]

If the snake engine and crane engine were in WC to start with, that is great. If not, it's a good idea to bring it into WC.

Since the Yang Taiji doesn't have "engine" (just borrow this term), some people bring crane engine into it, others brings Chen Taiji engine into it.

John,

snake engine and crane center line principle in always there within the WCK set such as this one, across the known older WCK lineages, and it is still there whether recognized or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4eWIAYvf9Q

Some modern WCK lineage has further evolve , and might no longer has the engine.

[JPinAZ]

John,

snake engine and crane center line principle in always there within the WCK set such as this one, across the known older WCK lineages, and it is still there whether recognized or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4eWIAYvf9Q

Some modern WCK lineage has further evolve , and might no longer has the engine.

You really are lost aren't you. WC Centerline principle is a main part of all WCK. Who here does not recognise WC Centerline principle in their WCK?

You are now just talking silly about modern or older WCK this and that. All WCK is the same age since they all come from the same original source. Yes, there are plenty of 'branches' in WCK today, but they all come from the same seed the tree grew from. Sure, plenty of interpretations (like yours), but they are all the same age.

[LoneTiger108]

I gotta say man, that sounds freakin' disgusting.

Yeah well it does sound worse than it is dude!! :eek:

The process of skin toughening is quite slow and I'm not advocating burning your arms to sh!t here, in fact quite the opposite. Slow and steady progression develop a kind of leathery skin over the forearms that helps to avoid graizes and scuffs throughout our interactive training.

Just one example of snake characteristics in our methods. There are more, but I'm still waiting to see examples of what Hendrik is talking about to be honest! maybe he will have another Christmas present for us all...

[wingchunIan]

bit of a tangent here, we don't have snake engines or crane engines in the WC that I do, we have human legs, torsos and arms but I do think Hendrik's emei theory is worthy of consideration. I was near to mount Emei eearlier this year and most locals believe that the reason that Emei kung fu was not taken as seriously historically as the arts of shaolin and Wudang was because it was predominantly practised by women. If you take the common legend of how Wing Chun was invented, I really struggle with the notion that a female shaolin monk made up the system and then taught it to a girl named Wing Chun. Far more sensible to me seems the notion that maybe a female practitioner from Emei travelled south (for whatever reason) to where her style etc would have been relatively unknown. If the style was taught to a young woman called Wing Chun and she became proficient then it is natural that the locals would use her name to decribe the style as was common with familly styles etc given that they would have no alternative frame of reference for this unfamiliar style. In subsequent years of course cross pollination with southern arts would have been inevitable and generations would have evolved. Only a theory and a digression from everyone talking about exfoliating on the dummy:eek:

[LoneTiger108]

bit of a tangent here, we don't have snake engines or crane engines in the WC that I do, we have human legs, torsos and arms but I do think Hendrik's emei theory is worthy of consideration.

IMHO There is nothing wrong in using the wooden man as an exfoliating massage machine lol!! :D

As far as you having no snake or crane engine or elements to your Wing Chun I simply do not believe you! But obviously we should meet to discuss and I can possibly share what I know about it (which is still very little!)

As for Hendriks mission to help us all understand where Wing Chun originates, I wouldn't be so sure as the Emei stuff is regional and considered one of the three treasures of TCMA including Shaolin and Wudang. It's influence would have been far and wide, but predominantly it was a Buddhist/Taoist exercise to help with meditation and health. It is also worth noting that Bakmei, from Emei Mountain, completed the first book on Emei Boxing

http://kaleidoscope.cultural-china.com/en/9Kaleidoscope2119.html

What I find very interesting is that the Ip family promoted Confucius ideals as their hallmark of being a decent Wing Chun exponent and if you take the other two 'religions' influence in Martial Arts into account they kind of 'completed the cycle'.

What you need to ask yourself is 'are you versed in these three treasures on Chinese Culture?'

And if you have had no exposure to them at all during your training of Wing Chun, then you have been practising post HK Wing Chun as develeoped by Ip Man because I have found most other lineages and mainland versions do have many Buddhist and Taoist influences in their teachings.

Just a thought for Christmas! ;)

[Hendrik]

IMHO There is nothing wrong in using the wooden man as an exfoliating massage machine lol!! :D

As far as you having no snake or crane engine or elements to your Wing Chun I simply do not believe you! But obviously we should meet to discuss and I can possibly share what I know about it (which is still very little!)

As for Hendriks mission to help us all understand where Wing Chun originates, I wouldn't be so sure as the Emei stuff is regional and considered one of the three treasures of TCMA including Shaolin and Wudang. It's influence would have been far and wide, but predominantly it was a Buddhist/Taoist exercise to help with meditation and health. It is also worth noting that Bakmei, from Emei Mountain, completed the first book on Emei Boxing

http://kaleidoscope.cultural-china.com/en/9Kaleidoscope2119.html

What I find very interesting is that the Ip family promoted Confucius ideals as their hallmark of being a decent Wing Chun exponent and if you take the other two 'religions' influence in Martial Arts into account they kind of 'completed the cycle'.

What you need to ask yourself is 'are you versed in these three treasures on Chinese Culture?'

And if you have had no exposure to them at all during your training of Wing Chun, then you have been practising post HK Wing Chun as develeoped by Ip Man because I have found most other lineages and mainland versions do have many Buddhist and Taoist influences in their teachings.

Just a thought for Christmas! ;)


What we need to watch out is, the emei 12 zhuang has two parts. The body of the art is body enegergy cultivation or meditation and health practice, the application of the art is healing art and martial art. (healing and killing is the two faces of a coin). The ancient do not boast on the killing part because Buddhism is core in compassionate. Thus, the martial art side is purposely no reveal.

For the slt, the martial art part is popular, the energy and health part is what I am interested to bring out .

[wingchunIan]

As far as you having no snake or crane engine or elements to your Wing Chun I simply do not believe you! But obviously we should meet to discuss and I can possibly share what I know about it (which is still very little!)


Always interested in meeting up with other martial artists. so we'll ahve to arrange something in the new year. As for snakes and cranes etc trust me we are 100% human in my club :p

[Vajramusti]

IMHO There is nothing wrong in using the wooden man as an exfoliating massage machine lol!! :D

As far as you having no snake or crane engine or elements to your Wing Chun I simply do not believe you! But obviously we should meet to discuss and I can possibly share what I know about it (which is still very little!)

As for Hendriks mission to help us all understand where Wing Chun originates, I wouldn't be so sure as the Emei stuff is regional and considered one of the three treasures of TCMA including Shaolin and Wudang. It's influence would have been far and wide, but predominantly it was a Buddhist/Taoist exercise to help with meditation and health. It is also worth noting that Bakmei, from Emei Mountain, completed the first book on Emei Boxing

http://kaleidoscope.cultural-china.com/en/9Kaleidoscope2119.html

What I find very interesting is that the Ip family promoted Confucius ideals as their hallmark of being a decent Wing Chun exponent and if you take the other two 'religions' influence in Martial Arts into account they kind of 'completed the cycle'.

What you need to ask yourself is 'are you versed in these three treasures on Chinese Culture?'

And if you have had no exposure to them at all during your training of Wing Chun, then you have been practising post HK Wing Chun as develeoped by Ip Man because I have found most other lineages and mainland versions do have many Buddhist and Taoist influences in their teachings.

Just a thought for Christmas! ;)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ip Chun promotes the Confucian element. But given Old chinese values--the Confucian relative system went into wing chun culture-but there are Budddhist and Taoist elements in some concepts...imo. Each to his own.
The snake/crane elements are no longer directly mentioned but they are alive and well in the concepts of the lines, the circles and the spirals, and energy control and usage. Of course Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism are mixed in old Chinese culture but the mixes, variants, combinations, permutations are many. Joy

[YouKnowWho]

Why do you feel it is a good idea to bring this outside stuff into WC? (if it's not already there?)

* I don't mean this as a slight, I'm just curious why you think it should be added

It had been done in the ancient time. It also has been done in the modern time.

- Longfist master Yang Jwing-Ming brought "white crane Fajin" into Yang Taiji.
- Prey mantis master Su Yu Chang brought "Baji Fajin" into prey mantis.
- Wing Chun master Hendrik brought "crane engine" into Wing Chun.
- ...

Whether people will accept this idea 1000 years from today, you and I will not be able to know.

Evolution is always a good thing.

[YouKnowWho]

John,

snake engine and crane center line principle in always there within the WCK set such as this one, across the known older WCK lineages, and it is still there whether recognized or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4eWIAYvf9Q

Some modern WCK lineage has further evolve , and might no longer has the engine.

I agree that each TCMA system should have "Fajin method (engine)". unfortunately many styles have lost it. Styles such as longfist, 7 star mantis, Yang Taiji, ... just don't have Fajin training that students can develop their Fajin in short period of time.

Teacher always like to say, "If you train long enough in my system, you will know how to Fajin." I don't agree with that kind of approach. If you can't find a small set of "Fajin" drills in your system, your system just doesn't have "Fajin" by definition.

[Vajramusti]

I agree that each TCMA system should have "Fajin method (engine)". unfortunately many styles have lost it. Styles such as longfist, 7 start mantis, Yang Taiji, ... just don't have Fajin training that students can develop their Fajin in short period of time.

Teacher always like to say, "If you train long enough in my system, you will know how to Fajin." I don't agree with that kind of approach. If you can't find a small set of "Fajin" drills in your system, your system just doesn't have "Fajin" by definition.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Per your absurd previous suggestion somewhere in a thread, I have not searched for a rope yet- but no one speaks for all TCMA or all of wing chun..but yes- there are fajin drills in wing chun..under the Cantonese labels
Bau ja geng
Bau ja lik
The seeds are there in the forms.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

I agree that each TCMA system should have "Fajin method (engine)". unfortunately many styles have lost it. Styles such as longfist, 7 start mantis, Yang Taiji, ... just don't have Fajin training that students can develop their Fajin in short period of time.

Teacher always like to say, "If you train long enough in my system, you will know how to Fajin." I don't agree with that kind of approach. If you can't find a small set of "Fajin" drills in your system, your system just doesn't have "Fajin" by definition.

John,

I certainly agree with that many tcma styles has lost the engine. The sets might remain but the kungfu can no longer be developed. Also, I agree with you jing handling is independent with how long one train.

I have heard taiwan taiji doesn't have fajing transmission , so, they get it from the late baji great master in Taiwan.

I brought up the snake engine for looking into these jing stuffs.


Btw. Not, I don't brought white crane engine into WCK as you mention above. I am just presenting what is writing in 1850 WCK to Mach crane and emei snake DNA.



May be this xmas santa will bring us into jing, what is it and what and how is it for WCK. The world need to know the secret before it end at 1221 2012. Hahaha. Joking.

[YouKnowWho]

there are fajin drills in wing chun..under the Cantonese labels
Bau ja geng
Bau ja lik
The seeds are there in the forms.

joy chaudhuri
I was expecting longfist guys, prey mantis guys, or Yang Taiji guys to jump me on this. I truly didn't expect a WC guy to jump me on this at all. :)


Styles such as longfist, 7 star mantis, Yang Taiji, ... just don't have Fajin training that students can develop their Fajin in short period of time.
Could you explain how to use "Bau ja geng" or "Bau ja lik" to Fajin?

Allow me to throw a "brick" to invite your "jade". Here is one of the Baji Fajin methods:

- Send out your back cross punch in bow-arrow stance.
- Raise your feet on your toes.
- Send your punching arm out as far as you can.
- Hold there as long as you can.
- When you no longer be able to hold,
- you land your feet in a horse stance, and send out your front arm punch.

Even if you are not a Baji guy, you should be able to use this simple drill to generate "horizontal" power in a short period of time.

[YouKnowWho]

I have heard taiwan taiji doesn't have fajing transmission , so, they get it from the late baji great master in Taiwan.

I had tried to put Baji engine into longfist and prey mantis before. I then realized that grenade (Baji), riffle (longfist), and machine gun (prey mantis) all have it's value in battle field. The Baji power generation method just take too much time and that hurt "speed" big time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23TG4IFCzhg

I do believe that WC, white crane, and snake doesn't have the same issue as Baji, longfist, and prey mantis have.

I had helped an Okinawa Karate master to translate his white crane book. If an Okinawa Karate master was interesting in finding the root in white crane. I can see a good reason for a southern TCMA system to find any connection among other southern TCMA systems.

[Robinhood]

Sounds like you guys are trying to call application method the engine.

[Vajramusti]

Sounds like you guys are trying to call application method the engine.
----------------------------------------------------

not me.

But when one understands fajin it can be used in applications.

[Hendrik]

I had tried to put Baji engine into longfist and prey mantis before. I then realized that grenade (Baji), riffle (longfist), and machine gun (prey mantis) all have it's value in battle field. The Baji power generation method just take too much time and that hurt "speed" big time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23TG4IFCzhg

I do believe that WC, white crane, and snake doesn't have the same issue as Baji, longfist, and prey mantis have.

I had helped an Okinawa Karate master to translate his white crane book. If an Okinawa Karate master was interesting in finding the root in white crane. I can see a good reason for a southern TCMA system to find any connection among other southern TCMA systems.


John,

Jin is well defined as you know. There are different type of Jin, there are big jin and small Jin which are power and trigger differently with local body parts or whole body, no one size fit all.

for example, in my art there is 千斤墜or thousand pounds drop which is used for WCK jut sau or jerk hand, there is 䄂底勁or under sleeve Jin, there is 驚彈or shock bounce the big Jin where usually most think this type of Jin is the fajing as Chen taiji.

In yik kam linage, our 驚彈勁。or shck bounce Jin comes with four instruction kuit on how to do it. 速脫彈盪。or accelerate, release , bounce, recoil.

[YouKnowWho]

千斤墜or thousand pounds drop which is used for WCK .
I'm very interesting in Jin training drills. Could you share how do you train your "千斤墜(thousand pounds drop)"?

This is how I trained my sinking Jin by this simple drill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNWuZSACfNA

I have always believed that for every Jin, there should be a simple drill to train that. What do you think?

[Hendrik]

I'm very interesting in Jin training drills. Could you share how do you train your "千斤墜(thousand pounds drop)"?

This is how I trained my sinking Jin by this simple drill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNWuZSACfNA

I have always believed that for every Jin, there should be a simple drill to train that. What do you think?


In my understanding,
Every different type of jin uses different part of body parts. So, they are different in handling. And ofcorse they needs to have drill to train.

The thousand pound drop is for WCK jut sau, it is a high speed jerk force vector . it is different then the one in your clip type using with big physical motion or bigger action.

Also, for us there are differences between墜。沉。drop and sink. For my style, your clip is sink. Drop will be like suddenly let go both feet and free fall down sit on the floor on the butt.

[Yoshiyahu]

i am enjoying your dialoge...very very interesting!



In my understanding,
Every different type of jin uses different part of body parts. So, they are different in handling. And ofcorse they needs to have drill to train.

The thousand pound drop is for WCK jut sau, it is a high speed jerk force vector . it is different then the one in your clip type using with big physical motion or bigger action.

Also, for us there are differences between墜。沉。drop and sink. For my style, your clip is sink. Drop will be like suddenly let go both feet and free fall down sit on the floor on the butt.

[JPinAZ]

It had been done in the ancient time. It also has been done in the modern time.

- Longfist master Yang Jwing-Ming brought "white crane Fajin" into Yang Taiji.
- Prey mantis master Su Yu Chang brought "Baji Fajin" into prey mantis.
- Wing Chun master Hendrik brought "crane engine" into Wing Chun.
- ...

Whether people will accept this idea 1000 years from today, you and I will not be able to know.

Evolution is always a good thing.

So I understand you correctly, you think it is a good idea to mix in other stuff into your WC because it has been done in the past? What is it you think WC is missing? I guess what I'm asking is, do you find your WC missing information that you have to pull from somewhere else?

IMO, Evolution and mix-matching are not the same thing. Not saying this is what you are doing. But, I don't think all things always 'need' to evolve just for the sake of evolution. From me, I have not found the need to have to mix in other things into WC like, as you say, Hendrik has done by mixing in crane engine into
his WC. So far, I have not found that WC is missing pieces like he has, so no need to look into other things for answers.

[Yoshiyahu]

i know the question is not for me...But i wanted to share...Hendrik has said crane engine is not apart of wing chun...he is saying its the emei snake engine...


ne way please share what you feel would be a mismatch to wing chun...


Wing Chun is fighting system which is already mixed with snake and crane type techniques. Along with other stuff depending on your lineage.


I find chinese martial arts is always mixing...like Baguazhang, tai chi and xingyi are being mixed....

Your kung fu or fighting is a combination of what ever arts you know! A man with boxing and muay thai background wing chun will be different than a person with judo and aikido back ground. Your understanding of various techniques will be different than someone with a different skill set.

All Gung Fu should evolved. The person of Gung Fu is to fight, defend your self or attack your enemies depending on the system.


Your adaptation and innovations should be based on suriving and being able to adapt to your fighter...

Just as the Yang style tai chi was innovated to combat the different martial disciplines Yang fought so should your Wing Chun be adapted...

Hendriks wing chun should be drastically different than mines. Even if we learn from the same teacher his application, knowledge, experience, and enviroment is way different than minds. My adapatations will deal with what im up against. Not what life was like for him growing up in china as a child. Someone growing up in Harlem, the Bronx, Watts, South Central, Compton wing chun will be drastically different than someone growing up hollywood, melrose place, rodeo drive, beverly hills.

So your martial arts application is dictated by the character fighting style of those you are expose too...Someone growing up in thai land Wing Chun is way different than someone growing up in okinawa.


So I understand you correctly, you think it is a good idea to mix in other stuff into your WC because it has been done in the past? What is it you think WC is missing? I guess what I'm asking is, do you find your WC missing information that you have to pull from somewhere else?

IMO, Evolution and mix-matching are not the same thing. Not saying this is what you are doing. But, I don't think all things always 'need' to evolve just for the sake of evolution. From me, I have not found the need to have to mix in other things into WC like, as you say, Hendrik has done by mixing in crane engine into
his WC. So far, I have not found that WC is missing pieces like he has, so no need to look into other things for answers.

[JPinAZ]

i know the question is not for me...But i wanted to share...Hendrik has said crane engine is not apart of wing chun...he is saying its the emei snake engine...

ne way please share what you feel would be a mismatch to wing chun...

Was this a question? Was it for me?

Maybe you should let Hendrik speak for himself (even if it's difficult to follow him for most) because I don't believe you understand what it is Hendrik is trying to say here. He is not saying Emei/Crane are separate things. He has said many times here that WCK=Snake+Crane and that most of the WCK is missing this information that only he and a few lucky souls have been able to unlock :rolleyes:

FWIW, Emei Snake is Emei Snake, WC is WC. While they have some similarities in concept, the actual principles and body methods are different. Even the first major concept of WC, Centerline (self centerline being the first key to the concept), requires a specific body alignment that I do not see in most snake videos I have watched. They are 2 different arts operating under different guidlines.


Wing Chun is fighting system which is already mixed with snake and crane type techniques. Along with other stuff depending on your lineage.

Wing Chun is a system of fighting, it is not the techniques we see in the forms. So yes, while there are some characteristics/elements/flavors from snake and crane, that is not all there is to WCK. But these same shapes are seen in many other southern chinese kung fu, are they all WCK too? There is also eagle and even dragon. Does that now mean WCK=Snake+Dragon+Crane+Eagle? No.
Looking at shapes/techniques is just looking at superficial shapes. They are not the system of WCK themselves. I think even when Hendrik talks about the various 'engines', he is talking further than just shapes and techniques


I find chinese martial arts is always mixing...like Baguazhang, tai chi and xingyi are being mixed....

Your kung fu or fighting is a combination of what ever arts you know! A man with boxing and muay thai background wing chun will be different than a person with judo and aikido back ground. Your understanding of various techniques will be different than someone with a different skill set.

All Gung Fu should evolved. The person of Gung Fu is to fight, defend your self or attack your enemies depending on the system.


Your adaptation and innovations should be based on suriving and being able to adapt to your fighter...

Just as the Yang style tai chi was innovated to combat the different martial disciplines Yang fought so should your Wing Chun be adapted...

Hendriks wing chun should be drastically different than mines. Even if we learn from the same teacher his application, knowledge, experience, and enviroment is way different than minds. My adapatations will deal with what im up against. Not what life was like for him growing up in china as a child. Someone growing up in Harlem, the Bronx, Watts, South Central, Compton wing chun will be drastically different than someone growing up hollywood, melrose place, rodeo drive, beverly hills.

So your martial arts application is dictated by the character fighting style of those you are expose too...Someone growing up in thai land Wing Chun is way different than someone growing up in okinawa.

Not really seeing the relevance here. You are talking about a person's personal expression of an art, not the art/style itself. These 2 different things, and not really related to Hendrik's WC=crane+snake theory..

[YouKnowWho]

What is it you think WC is missing?

Fast footwork, hip throw, ground game, ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGxptvJlubY

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ogoshi.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivGksxVQwww&feature=related

[JPinAZ]

Fast footwork, hip throw, ground game, ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGxptvJlubY

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ogoshi.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivGksxVQwww&feature=related

Fast footwork? WCK doesn't have it?
Regardless, my understanding of WCK is of economy of motion and we only move if we have too. Yes, you will need to be able to move fast when needed, but the type of fast footwork seen in that clip doesn't really have a major place in WCK, if at all.

Do you think hip throws go along with WCK's centerline theory, or at the least, our idea of an upright self-centerline?

My opinion is, just because there are so many things seen in so many other arts doesn't mean they are 'missing' from WCK - sometimes they just don't belong if you are operating under the principles of WCK.
But, that doesn't mean someone can't use them - everything has a time and place I guess. But still doesn't mean they 'belong' there.

Is WCK also 'missing' a spinning backfist, a high roundhouse kick or even a back hand spring? ;)

[wtxs]

Fast footwork, hip throw, ground game, ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGxptvJlubY

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ogoshi.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivGksxVQwww&feature=related

Video #! - fast footwork indeed, almost like the "circle" stepping as shown in WSL's The Science of In-fighting video.

Videos # 2 & 3 - The core concept of WC is to FINISH and END the fight FAST, with the least amount of moves or effort. Throwing and going to the ground requiring additional disabling techniques.

If we were to incorporate all the MISSING things to WC, we are modifying WC. It's no longer original once it is modified ... you can no longer call it WC.













fa

[YouKnowWho]

we are modifying WC.

I won't call it "modifying" but "integrating". To add "hip throw" into the WC system is not going to modify any of the original WC skill. To put a pair chopsticks on your dinner table that already has knife, spoon, and fork just give you more options.

[wtxs]

I won't call it "modifying" but "integrating". To add "hip throw" into the WC system is not going to modify any of the original WC skill. To put a pair chopsticks on your dinner table that already has knife, spoon, and fork just give you more options.


If we were to incorporate all the MISSING things to WC, we are modifying WC. It's no longer original once it is modified ... you can no longer call it WC.

WC was created with an single mined purpose - END FIGHT QUICK. By adding what you've suggested regress the art to its early stage of development.

If "integrating" resulting quicker ending to the fight, I'll come on board - but I will not call it WC.

[YouKnowWho]

but I will not call it WC.
You don't have to call it anything. It's "your skill" not your WC system skill.

When Bill Gates saw the Apple Lisa user interface, he said, "I want it." He didn't say that Apple Lisa user interface was not DOS like (command line UI) or OS/2 like (he was working with IBM to develop OS/2 at that time). If he had conservative thinking, the Window desk top operation system won't exist today.

If IBM vice president didn't kill my project, I had chance to beat Bill Gates at that time. That was another story. :(

[Robinhood]

I won't call it "modifying" but "integrating". To add "hip throw" into the WC system is not going to modify any of the original WC skill. To put a pair chopsticks on your dinner table that already has knife, spoon, and fork just give you more options.

Adding moves like that are going in wrong direction of system development, the system is designed to go from body level movement , and make that smaller and smaller until you reach point level.

[YouKnowWho]

Adding moves like that are going in wrong direction of system development, the system is designed to go from body level movement , and make that smaller and smaller until you reach point level.

Again, I'm not talking about system development but personal development.

[Vajramusti]

Adding moves like that are going in wrong direction of system development, the system is designed to go from body level movement , and make that smaller and smaller until you reach point level.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

personal and system development. Throwing is a function- many ways of doing it... including wc-
doesn't have to be a judo hip throw.

joy chaudhuri

[wtxs]

You don't have to call it anything. It's "your skill" not your WC system skill.

When Bill Gates saw the Apple Lisa user interface, he said, "I want it." He didn't say that Apple Lisa user interface was not DOS like (command line UI) or OS/2 like (he was working with IBM to develop OS/2 at that time). If he had conservative thinking, the Window desk top operation system won't exist today.

If IBM vice president didn't kill my project, I had chance to beat Bill Gates at that time. That was another story. :(

What we have here is failure to communicate. You implied some thing is missing from WC, what does "your skill" or your WC system (???) skill had to do with it, make up your mind, are talking about apples or oranges??? :confused:

And by the way, why did Gates name the new system Windows and not some ting like Apple Lisa Gateway? May be because the original system had been modified.

[YouKnowWho]

What we have here is failure to communicate. You implied some thing is missing from WC, what does "your skill" or your WC system (???) skill had to do with it, make up your mind, are talking about apples or oranges??? :confused:
Let me give another example here. When you train boxing, you realize that some wrestling skill is missing in boxing. You then train wrestling.

You have 2 options here:

1. Treat wrestling and boxing as 2 separate arts, or
2. Integrate wrestling and boxing as one art (you may call it "wrestling boxing", "boxing wrestling", or just MMA).

If you don't teach any students, it won't matter which option that you may take.

[Yoshiyahu]

I have to agree let hendrix speak for himself...So i will do just that...But i see Wing Chun as mix martial art already...The creator or creators of Wing Chun had core arts they practiced already...if there were snake, crane, eagle claw, hung gar,chin na or what ever existed at the time it doesn't really matter we have techniques, methodolgy, theory and principals based on their fight experience, kung fu training and philospical experience.


Wing Chun is being modified all the time...lets start with Yip Man who modified Wing Chun in Hong Kong. Previous to that his WC was more like YKS wing chun was it not...im not saying it was YKS but it similiar to five of mainland families of Wing Chun.



Was this a question? Was it for me?



Wing Chun is a system of fighting, it is not the techniques we see in the forms. So yes, while there are some characteristics/elements/flavors from snake and crane, that is not all there is to WCK. But these same shapes are seen in many other southern chinese kung fu, are they all WCK too? There is also eagle and even dragon. Does that now mean WCK=Snake+Dragon+Crane+Eagle? No.
Looking at shapes/techniques is just looking at superficial shapes. They are not the system of WCK themselves. I think even when Hendrik talks about the various 'engines', he is talking further than just shapes and techniques..

Wing Chun has fast footwork. But not for outside fighting...of course modifications can be made so your wing chun can work on the outside...also modifications can be made so your wing chun works on the ground. But look at TCMA...name one style of Kung Fu that has a ground game...i dont mean anti-take down or anti- grappling skills. I dont mean ground game like how to get up quickly. But i mean staying on the ground and finishing your opponent there. Some have modified their wing chun to deal with the current martial disciplines thats out there...Everyone WC is different. Some people WC may infact have high kicks and hip throws. When your fighting its what ever works. If i can hip throw you an chain punch your face while your on your back fight over i win. Again Wing Chun techniques and strategem and footwork is for inclose. In is a close combat style. Not long range style like Tae Kwon Do! You can modify your WC to work at long range and medium range...but realistically to finish him quickly you wont to be at a range so close he cant punch or kick you in return. WC skill set is close combat...So you can defeat someone not comfortable when being that close!




Video #! - fast footwork indeed, almost like the "circle" stepping as shown in WSL's The Science of In-fighting video.

Videos # 2 & 3 - The core concept of WC is to FINISH and END the fight FAST, with the least amount of moves or effort. Throwing and going to the ground requiring additional disabling techniques.

If we were to incorporate all the MISSING things to WC, we are modifying WC. It's no longer original once it is modified ... you can no longer call it WC. fa

I dont see adaptation of other arts as stalling the ability to end a fight quickly...Arent there other arts who sole design is to end a fight quickly? I am not talking about sports combat i mean actual fighting...Judo has both a sports style and combat style...Do you think the fighting form of Judo is loss?


WC was created with an single mined purpose - END FIGHT QUICK. By adding what you've suggested regress the art to its early stage of development.

If "integrating" resulting quicker ending to the fight, I'll come on board - but I will not call it WC.


Please explain why adding techniques is wrong?


Adding moves like that are going in wrong direction of system development, the system is designed to go from body level movement , and make that smaller and smaller until you reach point level.

No it doesnt...it can be a shua jiao hip throw...


-personal and system development. Throwing is a function- many ways of doing it... including wc-
doesn't have to be a judo hip throw.

joy chaudhuri

[wtxs]

You have 2 options here:

1. Treat wrestling and boxing as 2 separate arts, or
2. Integrate wrestling and boxing as one art (you may call it "wrestling boxing", "boxing wrestling", or just MMA).

You are such a genius my friend, now apply those same concepts to WC and what ever people wanted to add to it.

[JPinAZ]

I have to agree let hendrix speak for himself...So i will do just that...But i see Wing Chun as mix martial art already...The creator or creators of Wing Chun had core arts they practiced already...if there were snake, crane, eagle claw, hung gar,chin na or what ever existed at the time it doesn't really matter we have techniques, methodolgy, theory and principals based on their fight experience, kung fu training and philospical experience.

I would say it's the opposite in a way. Yes, we could say WCK is a culmination of what they had learned from thier perspective arts, but also a break away from what those arts were - and that's fighting like a human vs like an animal. Also, it was about getting down to the core mechanics and ideas for achieving maximum efficiency and effectiveness. So to say it's eagle+crane+etc, that isn't 100% true because a lot of the big, wasted motions from those arts aren't seen in WCK (for the most part). This is due, IMO, to the idea of moving away from animal style fighting and more toward human principle based fighting. So, it's also the opposite of those arts to a degree.


Wing Chun is being modified all the time...lets start with Yip Man who modified Wing Chun in Hong Kong.

Sure, anything can be modified. But the question is WHY is it being modified? What are the reasons? Since you bring up YM, he taught many different ways throughout his life. I wouldn't say he modified WCK itself, just his teaching methods. And are his earlier teachings better or worse than the final ways he was teaching? Same with Leung Jan (he had 3 separate 'styles' of WCK he ended up teaching).
Did they really change/evolve WCK? Or was it just the teaching methods that change, and not really the art? IMO, WCK is still WCK. Yeah, if not everything is passed on to everyone, there will be differences, arguments about what is missing, etc. and things might be added to make up for this. But that doesn't mean WCK principles/ideas have necessarily changed..

Example: I could teach someone HFY WCK, focusing on just the core concepts and principles and not really delve into all of HFY's Kiu Sau technologies. Or I could skip Taan/Bong/Fook chi sau entirely. Or I could skip the forms. Did I still teach them WCK? Just because I have modified how it was taught doesn't mean I modified or evolved the system.

Regardless, I still don't see how this qualifies a direct reason for WCK having to continually evolve. FWIW, in my almost 10 years experience in WCK (both HFY and Yip Man), I have not had to look to any other arts for answers that WCK didn't have. WCK principles have always lead me to the most efficient and effective way to deal with a given attack/situation/etc.
(now, that doesn't mean I am always spot on in application! - far from it at times! ;))


Previous to that his WC was more like YKS wing chun was it not...im not saying it was YKS but it similiar to five of mainland families of Wing Chun.

I don't know what it was like - how do you or anyone know it was more like YKS?

I would say you could be correct for some of the WCK that came from the Red Boats, and more specifically, only YM WC that claims to come from YKS.
But this is not true for all WCK from the redboats, and surely not all WCK in general since there are other lineages that do not even trace themselves thru the red boats at all and were in existence parallel to what comes from the red boats from that time.


Wing Chun has fast footwork. But not for outside fighting...of course modifications can be made so your wing chun can work on the outside...also modifications can be made so your wing chun works on the ground. But look at TCMA...name one style of Kung Fu that has a ground game...i dont mean anti-take down or anti- grappling skills. I dont mean ground game like how to get up quickly. But i mean staying on the ground and finishing your opponent there. Some have modified their wing chun to deal with the current martial disciplines thats out there...Everyone WC is different. Some people WC may infact have high kicks and hip throws. When your fighting its what ever works. If i can hip throw you an chain punch your face while your on your back fight over i win. Again Wing Chun techniques and strategem and footwork is for inclose. In is a close combat style. Not long range style like Tae Kwon Do! You can modify your WC to work at long range and medium range...but realistically to finish him quickly you wont to be at a range so close he cant punch or kick you in return. WC skill set is close combat...So you can defeat someone not comfortable when being that close!

WCK wasn't designed to stay fighting on the ground, so not sure your point there.. Taking it to the ground while fighting 2 or 3 people at once isn't my preferred plan. And not saying ground fighting arts, like say BJJ, can't be effective and if someone would prefer to finish the fight there, that's prefectly fine. But a ground art's usefulness can be greatly diminished based on the situation (multiple opponents being just one). That's why WCK's main focus is to remain on the feet and mobile.

FWIW, WCK does have long mid and short range engagement tools, strategies, etc. And from my experience, none of them require super fast footwork to close the gap. I let my opponent do that. In order for them to hit me, the range has to close from no contact to contact. At that point, whether it's a kick, jab or hook, my WCK tools & principles apply, do they not? (well, unless the attacker has freakishly long 8 foot arms or something)

And yes, I would agree that WCK's end goal is usually to end the fight at a shorter range. But, there are plenty of tools in WCK besides just fast footwork to get us there :)

[wtxs]

@ JPinAZ - sound reasoning is meet with alot of hot air, it's like banging your head against the wall ... you just can't get through.:p

[JPinAZ]

haha, well, maybe I did - notice there was no reply? Maybe I gave him food for thought and he's still chewing ;)

[Yoshiyahu]

haha, well, maybe I did - notice there was no reply? Maybe I gave him food for thought and he's still chewing ;)

Sorry for the long wait...I just got online...anyway...some of what you said i do agree with...But somethings you say like long range and short range...true wc has both long range, mid range and short range...The core is midrange and short range.

WC is an inclose fighting style. Short Bridge style...

All the big long wasted motions you see in animal forms are for long range attacks predominantly...Short range is more linear. Long range is the long swinging motions!

Short Linear attacks are faster ie chain punch.

Long Range Swinging Motions are more powerful ie hook or round house.

When I started learning WC we learn how to fight in three ranges. But From sparring with others and practicing on my own. I see wing chun strengths as close range...


As for ending the fight quickly...

For me the key to WC is

-Attack first and continously.
-Press the opponents space, stick to his center continue to jam his space.
-Attack his weakest points do not let him escape or move out of range.

If you or if your opponent is constantly moving in and out range "fly like butterfly sting like a bee" then you arent harnessing the trueness of wing chun. I mean i love to spar that way...long range sparring is fun. feinting is fun, doing little bait techniques are fun. Long range kicking is fun. But its not the core of WC sure you can do it. But thats not what the tools of wing chun are designed for.

I am not knocking you. i probably do alot of the same stuff you do from reading your post. But I acknowledge from the three forms, and the mook yan jong WC is an inclose style.

The idea of bridging the gap is so that you can with in San Shou range or chi sau range! WC gives you the tools to close the gap and then what to do once you have a bridge.

I feel if someone is fighting long distance or doesn't adhere to a bridge concept they might as well be a glorified kickboxer...

But again this is my opinion on what WC really should be!

[Yoshiyahu]

Whats the opposite of Hong Kong WC?

Mainland China WC are similiar in nature. I am not saying they originated from YKS. Im simply saying YKS looks alot like most of them. Even Vietnam WC is similiar in nature. The Mainland WC is more fluid and softer than the YM Hong Kong WC. One looks more Shotokan and the other looks more like leopard or fast version of Tai Chi. One is more flowing the other is more rigid...But ne way just sharing what I see with the few styles I have came across from the main land!

So as for redboat or not...Show me a lineage in mainland china that is not from the red boat...show me a video of their sil lim tao?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu
Previous to that his WC was more like YKS wing chun was it not...im not saying it was YKS but it similiar to five of mainland families of Wing Chun.

I don't know what it was like - how do you or anyone know it was more like YKS?

I would say you could be correct for some of the WCK that came from the Red Boats, and more specifically, only YM WC that claims to come from YKS.
But this is not true for all WCK from the redboats, and surely not all WCK in general since there are other lineages that do not even trace themselves thru the red boats at all and were in existence parallel to what comes from the red boats from that time.


Personally I do think WC is the be all to end all! I personally think it is a good idea to practice a long bridge or long style of fighting...it can be chinese or it could muay thai or kyoshukin. I think adding long range fighting to your WC is a good too! But you may be a purest. I am WC purest myself. But i see nothing Wrong with utilizing different arts to fight with. Maybe instead of saying WC i should say your Gung Fu. After all when you learn gung fu. Its not about the art you study but its about how you utilize it. Bruce Lee for instance added to WC what he felt was either missing or what he didnt get because he didnt receive the entire system. Also He added additional westernize training methods to make his WC stronger. Why because he was in the west with Westerners. He had to adapt to the types of people he would be fighting.

WC has to adapt to its enviroment...Well let me say your gung fu has to adapt to your enviroment and the people you fight...prime example the founder of Yang Tai Chi modified or innovated Chen style Tai Chi based on his experiences, enviroment and opponents he fought. Everyone is different therefore your expression of your gung fu has to be different. If you dont adapt then you wont survive.

WC has adapted. We call it WC but really its just that Sifus Gung Fu. He learn a certain way from his teacher and made changes or alterations based on his experiences and fights he had. Thats what WC is about. True WC is tried and tested by fighting with it. You can keep your WC just as you receive a carbon copy if your not fighting. But when you fight it will look different than mainstream WC.

Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu
Wing Chun is being modified all the time...lets start with Yip Man who modified Wing Chun in Hong Kong.
Sure, anything can be modified. But the question is WHY is it being modified? What are the reasons? Since you bring up YM, he taught many different ways throughout his life. I wouldn't say he modified WCK itself, just his teaching methods. And are his earlier teachings better or worse than the final ways he was teaching? Same with Leung Jan (he had 3 separate 'styles' of WCK he ended up teaching).
Did they really change/evolve WCK? Or was it just the teaching methods that change, and not really the art? IMO, WCK is still WCK. Yeah, if not everything is passed on to everyone, there will be differences, arguments about what is missing, etc. and things might be added to make up for this. But that doesn't mean WCK principles/ideas have necessarily changed..

Example: I could teach someone HFY WCK, focusing on just the core concepts and principles and not really delve into all of HFY's Kiu Sau technologies. Or I could skip Taan/Bong/Fook chi sau entirely. Or I could skip the forms. Did I still teach them WCK? Just because I have modified how it was taught doesn't mean I modified or evolved the system.

Regardless, I still don't see how this qualifies a direct reason for WCK having to continually evolve. FWIW, in my almost 10 years experience in WCK (both HFY and Yip Man), I have not had to look to any other arts for answers that WCK didn't have. WCK principles have always lead me to the most efficient and effective way to deal with a given attack/situation/etc.
(now, that doesn't mean I am always spot on in application! - far from it at times! )