Aliveness Vs. Dead Patterns

[nasmedicine]

Here's a video that was brought to my attention by a friend:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2068450760833041053

As the title of this post suggests, the content of the video talks about the reality of "Aliveness" in training and the fantasy of "Dead Patterns". The material is presented by a fellow named Matt Thornton.

What are your thoughts and opinions? Do you agree or disagree?

[k gledhill]

good clip.

[Hendrik]

Here's a video that was brought to my attention by a friend:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2068450760833041053

As the title of this post suggests, the content of the video talks about the reality of "Aliveness" in training and the fantasy of "Dead Patterns". The material is presented by a fellow named Matt Thornton.

What are your thoughts and opinions? Do you agree or disagree?

6 directional force and snake engine are elements prepare for aliveness even in practice set.

[Robinhood]

Here's a video that was brought to my attention by a friend:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2068450760833041053

As the title of this post suggests, the content of the video talks about the reality of "Aliveness" in training and the fantasy of "Dead Patterns". The material is presented by a fellow named Matt Thornton.

What are your thoughts and opinions? Do you agree or disagree?

I think the guy is trying to sell you something.

The different drills are all done for different reasons, which he does not seem to know.

Spammer

[Paul T England]

The Video series was groundbreaking and is excellent but the arguments are misleading.

Most people need dead patterns to start with.

You need to learn about your own timing, distancing, angles, speed, movement, footwork before trying to tackle someone elses.

Dead patterns are where you start....aliveness is where you want to end up...

If a student can't do a basic drill like Dan Chi or chain punching with ease, is it right to let them spar and develop bad habits such as tension, overextending, lack of rooting etc....

The series was a major eye opener for me and I have watched and studied the whole series many times and even attended a seminar. As said very good but you have to read between the lines and pass on the sales pitch. Before this series Paul Vunak had a video out on attributes and this was another wake up call for many and probably where matt got some inspiration from.

Wing Chun and other kung fu styles are great but make sure you can handle someone ploughing in and trying to hit you before talking about tan's bong's and proper siu nim tao!

Paul

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thorton is not against "dead patterns", he is against dead patterns being the BULK of training, which they tend to be for far to many schools.
Dead patterns are a development tool, like training wheels on a bike.
Sure some guys never bother with "training wheels" but they do their job.
BUT what MUST be done is remove them as soon as possible and get the riding that bike for real.

[Frost]

Aliveness does not just mean sparring, and dead patterns are those which have no timing energy motion etc as SBG regard it

I also think there is a difference between dead patterns and the introduction phase Matt uses with his guys

On a side note it amazes me how many people can watch him, agree with him then use his methods to justify what they do….. as paul sharp once put it on seeing chi sao used to enter into pummelling drills “ some people can f*ck up a wet dream”
:)

[nasmedicine]

Dead patterns are where you start....aliveness is where you want to end up...


Well said!

[nasmedicine]

Thorton is not against "dead patterns", he is against dead patterns being the BULK of training, which they tend to be for far to many schools.

I agree with the above statement. After having been sent the clip I posted; I looked at more clips of Thornton he repeatedly says what dead patterns are okay in the beginning. I did however notice in some clips Thorton specifically singles out Japanese and Chinese martial arts as a waste of time. This I DO NOT AGREE WITH! His one exception was BJJ but quickly states that it was modified by Brazilians of IRISH origin. He emphasizes the Irish part of it because in Thorton's eye European martial arts are the gold standard for fighting. So where I do agree on the overall big picture he's trying to give, I don't agree with some of his extremely ignorant remarks about traditional asian martial arts.

[nasmedicine]

6 directional force and snake engine are elements prepare for aliveness even in practice set.

I agree .

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree with the above statement. After having been sent the clip I posted; I looked at more clips of Thornton he repeatedly says what dead patterns are okay in the beginning. I did however notice in some clips Thorton specifically singles out Japanese and Chinese martial arts as a waste of time. This I DO NOT AGREE WITH! His one exception was BJJ but quickly states that it was modified by Brazilians of IRISH origin. He emphasizes the Irish part of it because in Thorton's eye European martial arts are the gold standard for fighting. So where I do agree on the overall big picture he's trying to give, I don't agree with some of his extremely ignorant remarks about traditional asian martial arts.

Matt may be right about some things, even most things but that doesn't make him right about everything, LOL !
Anyone that has been around the block knows that "there is nothing new under the sun".
Fact is that SOME MA are very bad from a practical stand point and every culture has those MA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Let make it clear that the only things that prepares a person for the "real thing" is getting as close as possible TO THE REAL thing.
Everything else is substandard to THAT.
Complaint drills ( I hate the term "dead") have their place in the development of tools but like the training wheel analogy, it is a place that is best left behind when one is ready.
Of course the degree of compliancy is also critical.

[anerlich]

1995 called and wants its thread back.

Matt Thornton is pretty old news to most people who cross train.

The Aliveness series was indeed revolutionary at the time. Matt and his organisation, students and associates and do put out a LOT of videos and obviously are in the business of product sales. Most of their stuff, is however, of at least reasonably quality, even their annual training camp videos usually have at least a couple of segments of good material.

He's not knocking the Chinese and Japanese styles per se, he's knocking many of their training methods, and the cult-like nature of (too) much of what goes on in such styles.Yyou could argue that there elements of cult of personality in SBG as well, but not to the ridiculous extent that ends up with living great grandmasters and Masters of Almightiness. Rather than saying his way is the only way (at least saying it all the time), he is telling you to think for yourself, experiment, test it out, don't believe everything you're told, even if the dude saying it is a Sifu or Grandmaster.

His students seem to do OK in combat sporting events. They also don't seem averse to sparring with anyone who turns up under whatever sort of rules the challengers want. If you think challenge matches are the pinnacle of proof of KF veracity, or OTOH think MMA matches are, these guys can do it and have done it.

[nasmedicine]

Nice post, but you could have left out the following:
1995 called and wants its thread back. Matt Thornton is pretty old news to most people who cross train.

[wingchunIan]

really no excuse for those shorts, however old the clip is :D

[anerlich]

Nice post, but you could have left out the following:

I could have, but I didn't.

Probably half the discussions on the forum, maybe more, during the past decade have been on the subjects discussed here. Look up tniehoff's (sp) posts and you will see exactly what I'm saying.

It IS old news. Deal with it.

[nasmedicine]

I could have, but I didn't.

Probably half the discussions on the forum, maybe more, during the past decade have been on the subjects discussed here. Look up tniehoff's (sp) posts and you will see exactly what I'm saying.

It IS old news. Deal with it.

Thank you for enlightening me. I am most gracious.