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Phil Redmond
12-19-2011, 04:57 PM
I know that many of us see terms used in other WC versions that we aren't familiar with. I've been doing WC for a while and I still see terms I've never seen in the many WC "versions" I've learned. I don't feel bad about not knowing. And no one else should. The only dumb question is the one you don't ask leaving you in the dark. ;)
I'll start with Cheun (threading) arm. My other WC lineages didn't use that term. Cheun is when one arm slides under the other arm like a needle goes under and out. I hope others add terms here. We're all family. Sometimes dysfunctional but still family. :D

Vajramusti
12-19-2011, 05:08 PM
Phil- some actions in different lineages may not be quite the same- making exact equivalencies problemayic. But we (Fong's wing chun) have a dictionary of terms for general info at:

http://www.fongswingchun.com/resources-dictionary-b.php

joy

PS- Your "Cheun"= stealing the line or timing function like slipping through? I don't know TWC usage but I know what stealing or slipping are.

Phil Redmond
12-19-2011, 05:49 PM
Phil- some actions in different lineages may not be quite the same- making exact equivalencies problemayic. But we (Fong's wing chun) have a dictionary of terms for general info at:

http://www.fongswingchun.com/resources-dictionary-b.php

joy

PS- Your "Cheun"= stealing the line or timing function like slipping through? I don't know TWC usage but I know what stealing or slipping are.
Thanks for the contribution. Nice format. I only wish the terms were in Chinese. Romanizing can be confusing. I didn't see a chit sao there. So I'll presume you don't use that term

Vajramusti
12-19-2011, 06:48 PM
Thanks for the contribution. Nice format. I only wish the terms were in Chinese. Romanizing can be confusing. I didn't see a chit sao there. So I'll presume you don't use that term
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Phil.
can you describe the motion of chit sao-could be we call it something else.?
our fak sao is in the third form. what is fan sao in the first form others call their fak sao.

Phil Redmond
12-19-2011, 07:02 PM
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Phil.
can you describe the motion of chit sao-could be we call it something else.?
our fak sao is in the third form. what is fan sao in the first form others call their fak sao.
Oh, sorry. We call the "wiping" of the wrists at the end of SLT Chit Sao. I've seen others use the term but I'm not sure how they use it.

Vajramusti
12-19-2011, 07:04 PM
Oh, sorry. We call the "wiping" of the wrists at the end of SLT Chit Sao. I've seen others use the term but I'm not sure how they use it.
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teet sao for me

Phil Redmond
12-19-2011, 07:30 PM
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teet sao for me
Ya' see? Teet,chit (cheet), could be the same. That's why we need the characters. I'm a stickler for Romanizing Chinese characters in the Cantonese dialect as close as possible to native speech. That's why I don't subscribe to using Ving Tsun for Wing Chun. In the case of Ip Man. I have to say that since it's a family name they can Romanize it any way they want. Even though it's pronounced Yip Man. I've even found differences with regards to Romanization in our system. So imagine across lineages. I'll bet that teet, and chit (cheet) are the same when we see the character.

Runlikehell
12-19-2011, 07:52 PM
Oh, sorry. We call the "wiping" of the wrists at the end of SLT Chit Sao. I've seen others use the term but I'm not sure how they use it.

Yeah, we use that term to describe that section too (TST lineage).

Vajramusti
12-19-2011, 08:38 PM
Ya' see? Teet,chit (cheet), could be the same. That's why we need the characters. I'm a stickler for Romanizing Chinese characters in the Cantonese dialect as close as possible to native speech. That's why I don't subscribe to using Ving Tsun for Wing Chun. In the case of Ip Man. I have to say that since it's a family name they can Romanize it any way they want. Even though it's pronounced Yip Man. I've even found differences with regards to Romanization in our system. So imagine across lineages. I'll bet that teet, and chit (cheet) are the same when we see the character.
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I understand that there are variations in Cantonese pronunciations- region, class, education can make differences... as well. Even in English it's not all the king's speech or castillian in spanish.
You are right- the written character is more uniform.... but even there -there is wiggle room for interpretation.

Phil Redmond
12-19-2011, 08:39 PM
Yeah, we use that term to describe that section too (TST lineage).
Thanks for your input. Dialog like this might help the WC family get on the same page. :)

LoneTiger108
12-20-2011, 06:17 AM
Dialog like this might help the WC family get on the same page. :)

Possibly. :)

Although I have to say, after spending too many years here already and trying to shed some light onto this area of study and getting nowhere fast, I admire your intentions Phil. As always.

Other families use the term 'tuetsau' for that last set of SLT.

When you write 'chit' or 'cheet' I think of 'cutting/slicing' as we have terms like cheet-kiu, but your description makes me think of 'chaap' which means 'threading'. It's actually the term we use for Lee Shings opening salutation.

Learning to recognise (at least!) the original characters has always been preferred as a learning method by my Sifu, and his!! ;)

trubblman
12-20-2011, 09:37 AM
Phil- some actions in different lineages may not be quite the same- making exact equivalencies problemayic. But we (Fong's wing chun) have a dictionary of terms for general info at:

http://www.fongswingchun.com/resources-dictionary-b.php

joy

PS- Your "Cheun"= stealing the line or timing function like slipping through? I don't know TWC usage but I know what stealing or slipping are.

We went over some cheun sao applications last night. My teacher who is of Fong lineage never specifically called it as such.

WC1277
12-20-2011, 09:47 AM
We went over some cheun sao applications last night. My teacher who is of Fong lineage never specifically called it as such.

Who's your teacher?

Lee Chiang Po
12-21-2011, 09:46 PM
Since I have discovered Utube I have done a lot of surfing and watching other people's Wing Chun, and have to say that it very diversified. I can't really criticize because I am not sure of what I am seeing.
Exactly what does the wiping of the wrists represent?

LoneTiger108
12-22-2011, 03:50 AM
Exactly what does the wiping of the wrists represent?

It may be better to share what you do at the end of SLT :)

I do not do any 'wiping' of the sleeves like a Royal Bodyguard ;) but have heard of the terms being used here as specific names of technique.

This set/method for me is different however in some ways.

Graham H
12-22-2011, 06:29 AM
Wiping of the wrists? Who said that? Don't make me fing laugh! :D:D

It's got nothing to do with the wrists but to the untrained eye what else would you think it would be. Ving Tsun is conceptual. It teaches actions based on fundamental principles and corrects errors. The three actions at the end of SLT (before the punches) are generally thought to be escapes from wrist grabs. Just as certain actions in CK are supposed to be for breaking elbow joints and a whole host of other "mcWing Chun dojo" ideas that are completely incorrect.

I've yet to meet somebody from a lineage that likes to "escape from wrist grabs" escape from my wrist grab. Its quite comical to watch as well.

You can experiment yourself. Ask somebody who has a good bit of strength to take a good hold of your wrist and try to "wipe it off". Even the sound of it is ****sexual.

In fact anybody that considers this action to be for "wiping wrists" and escaping from wrist grabs must be a ****sexual! :D

I remember many moons ago a certain "master" of Wing Chun in the Ip Chun lineage tried to do this on me. That was before YouTube but it would have been a good addition of how NOT to do Wing Chun! lol

GH

trubblman
12-22-2011, 11:55 AM
I've yet to meet somebody from a lineage that likes to "escape from wrist grabs" escape from my wrist grab. Its quite comical to watch as well.


GH

I ll take that offer.

Xian
12-22-2011, 03:15 PM
I know that many of us see terms used in other WC versions that we aren't familiar with. I've been doing WC for a while and I still see terms I've never seen in the many WC "versions" I've learned. I don't feel bad about not knowing. And no one else should. The only dumb question is the one you don't ask leaving you in the dark. ;)
I'll start with Cheun (threading) arm. My other WC lineages didn't use that term. Cheun is when one arm slides under the other arm like a needle goes under and out. I hope others add terms here. We're all family. Sometimes dysfunctional but still family. :D

Kiu Sao, a term for the 18 Brigding Methods of Weng Chun. We also apply these methods to our partner exercsies. Kiu in this has been translated to me as arm.
In short as I understand it, it points out that we try to brigde with the arm in the first way and try not to use our hand alone, or try to apply with the legs in the same way, of course while being aware of little changes which apear by using your leg instead of your arms.


Kind regards,
Xian

Lee Chiang Po
12-22-2011, 07:30 PM
[QUOTE=Graham H;1149593]Wiping of the wrists? Who said that? Don't make me fing laugh! :D:D

It's got nothing to do with the wrists but to the untrained eye what else would you think it would be. Ving Tsun is conceptual. It teaches actions based on fundamental principles and corrects errors. The three actions at the end of SLT (before the punches) are generally thought to be escapes from wrist grabs. Just as certain actions in CK are supposed to be for breaking elbow joints and a whole host of other "mcWing Chun dojo" ideas that are completely incorrect.

Well. I don't know about the homely sexual stuff, but I am inclined to agree somewhat. I couldn't actually imagine that someone would put something so silly as a wrist wipe down in a training routine.
If it is not representative of a wrist grab escape, then what do you say it is. A wrist grab during a serious exchange of fists is not something that I would attempt, but as an ambush or entry move, I have used a wrist grab quite a bit and was able to jerk my opponent off his feet before he could react. That is how that move would be used in my opinion, but I guess others might consider it otherwise.

Yoshiyahu
12-22-2011, 09:15 PM
If your good at using your opponents force against him. You might be able to use his own wrist grab as a Jut sau while you punch simultaneosuly!



Its hard to explain. But i have done it few times to some tai chi fighters who like do alot of wrist grabbing. I use their wrist either to pull them in as i hit them. or repel them as i hit them. If they are weak I don't break the wrist grab I just punch through it! If they are strong I just use their body connection to jut sau or uproot!



Wiping of the wrists? Who said that? Don't make me fing laugh! :D:D

It's got nothing to do with the wrists but to the untrained eye what else would you think it would be. Ving Tsun is conceptual. It teaches actions based on fundamental principles and corrects errors. The three actions at the end of SLT (before the punches) are generally thought to be escapes from wrist grabs. Just as certain actions in CK are supposed to be for breaking elbow joints and a whole host of other "mcWing Chun dojo" ideas that are completely incorrect.

I've yet to meet somebody from a lineage that likes to "escape from wrist grabs" escape from my wrist grab. Its quite comical to watch as well.

You can experiment yourself. Ask somebody who has a good bit of strength to take a good hold of your wrist and try to "wipe it off". Even the sound of it is ****sexual.

In fact anybody that considers this action to be for "wiping wrists" and escaping from wrist grabs must be a ****sexual! :D

I remember many moons ago a certain "master" of Wing Chun in the Ip Chun lineage tried to do this on me. That was before YouTube but it would have been a good addition of how NOT to do Wing Chun! lol

GH

YouKnowWho
12-22-2011, 11:17 PM
You might be able to use his own wrist grab as a Jut sau while you punch simultaneosuly!

Most of your opponent's "outer gate wrist grab" can be temporary and fake. IMO, the best response is to quickly reverse that situation onto your opponent and put him in defense mode.

LoneTiger108
12-23-2011, 04:34 AM
I just find it a bit funny that Phil starts a thread on Terminologies of Wing Chun and already we are in a debate about bloody wrist grabs! :rolleyes:

Not to put a downer on the convo, but if you are going to share what you do with what on this thread, surely you should at least share the terminology!!!

Just a thought...