Contact Points

[YouKnowWho]

If we look at the following contact points:

Your

1. hand grab on your opponent's wrist.
2. forearm touch on your opponent's forearm.
3. hand grab on your opponent's elbow.
4. hand press on your opponent's upper arm.
5. forearm touch on your opponent's upper arm.
6. upper arm touch on your opponent's upper arm.
7. shoulder touch on your opponent's shoulder.

You may see that the distance between you are your opponent is getting closer and closer from 1 to 7.

Which contact points do you prefer and why? Could you share your experience here?

[Subitai]

If we look at the following contact points:

Your

1. hand grab on your opponent's wrist.
2. forearm touch on your opponent's forearm.
3. hand grab on your opponent's elbow.
4. hand press on your opponent's upper arm.
5. forearm touch on your opponent's upper arm.
6. upper arm touch on your opponent's upper arm.
7. shoulder touch on your opponent's shoulder.

You may see that the distance between you are your opponent is getting closer and closer from 1 to 7.

Which contact points do you prefer and why? Could you share your experience here?

I teach 3 main gates ( as in a point of listening or open to manipulation) to work on the arm...they correspond to those major joints, namely: Wrist, elbow and shoulder.

My point of view is my opponents comitment? If he doesn't give me enough energy (coming at me i.e.) then I must choose to be the agressor when trying to apply these concepts. It would be so easy to demonstrate face to face.

-Some guys preffer to counter...I do, it's better and easier to manipulate someone when they freely give you something to work with. You can also invite the opportunity for your opponent to GIVE you something in the classic "Attack by Drawing method" ie. You leave an opening so tempting that your opponent will BITE and chance it.

-Some guys preffer to be offensive and manufacture their own advantages. "Best offense is a good defense" kind of thing. This usually works when you are better then your opponent to begin with. If your opponent is better than you, then he is usually expecting this or at least is trained to deal with your offensive tactic.

What's hard about posting verbally on a forum is that I could describe many ways to use this. Some will get it and some might be negative about it.

Really, it boils down to personal experience. When reading something, EVERYONE reflects on their own experiences and then makes a decision.
What I try never to do is: Shoot someone down if I'm not 100% certain they're wrong. IF there's any doubt, then I won't create conflict.

[EarthDragon]

subiti, great post!
I feel the moment our opponent makes contact where ever that is on the body, you must begin to use listening skills whether adhering sticking or anything thing else use this to your advantage. feel his Yi and keep a movement ahead depending on your experience that is to do so....

[YouKnowWho]

it boils down to personal experience.

This is always true in all situations. My teacher always said that, "Whatever skill that I taught you, it won't work on me."

IMO, some contact points are good and some contact points are bad. For example,

- If your hand grab on your opponent's wrist, his elbow can drop into your chest.
- If your forearm touch your opponent's forearm, he can borrow your force and give you a hook punch.

In other words, any contact points between the "outer gate - wrist" to "middle gate - elbow" is dangerous. Any contact points from the "middle gate - elbow" to "inner gate - shoulder" are much safer.

The forearm touch forearm is comonly used in many TCMA training drill. How do you reduce your risk to the minimum?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJGndrjP0i8 (at 1.05)

[-N-]

Which contact points do you prefer and why? Could you share your experience here?

Different contact points depending on distance and what I'm trying to do.

But after I've closed and I'm trying to finish things, I often have my inside forearm to upper forearm/elbow, my outside forearm to head/neck, my upper leg to other person's upper leg.

Use entire body to control the other person up close so it's more difficult for him to counter or escape.

[-N-]

The forearm touch forearm is comonly used in many TCMA training drill. How do you reduce your risk to the minimum?

1. Don't fight like you are doing a drill.
2. Overwhelming speed(the praying mantis answer).

[Dragonzbane76]

I usually pull the opponent towards me. I'll grab anything present to get close. But as for a "classical" lock or clinch I like grabbing an arm at the wrist and hooking into half plum with the other.
A lot of this is dictated by what the opponent is doing also. I have my natural clinch I go into but positioning and pressure command what is to happen.

[mooyingmantis]

John,
Excellent subject for discussion!

For mantis, I like contact through the wrist to the elbow (ala gou lou cai). I tell students never to trust a wrist to wrist bridge. It is only a checkpoint for further action.

In jujutsu, I tell students that "If you are close enough to kiss, you are close enough to kill" (one of my old axioms). So contact should be hip to hip or shoulder to shoulder.

I am a very aggressive fighter, so I use a lot of leaking past and rolling around contact points that I initiate. I guess you could say I prefer "talking" to "listening". Though I definitely stress "listening" skills to my opponent. I just prefer doing the talking since monkey boxing, then mantis boxing has given me very quick hands (as in -N-'s response).

Subitai,
Excellent post!

[MightyB]

It's tough to articulate, but when you are further out, you have more options, but they telegraph more - so the tighter the better. So if you can relax, get close, and be clever - it's better...

but as far as actual contact points- that's also tough because it's situational. Personally - I feel that if you can control that region near the elbow, above or below, you're in good shape. Below, watch for flex because a good mantis or chunner will "fold" around your defense.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Contact points for me are those that compromise the structure of the opponent.
Contact can be done by a strike ( with varying degrees of force) or by a grab ( grappling).
While I tend to favour those closest to the center like elbows, shoulders, knees and hips, there is a time and a place for wrists and ankles and even fingers and ears.
That said my favorite are elbows and shoulder on the arms, knees on the legs, hips on the core and neck and head on the upper area.
The old adage of where the head goes the body follows is quite correct and valuable.
I tend to apply force in a way that compromises the whole body structure and not just the limb or area in question.

[David Jamieson]

I go for joints, or double control on them on the same limb.

The attack targets for contact and grab for me are:

wrist/elbow/shoulder/neck/waist/knee/ankle

Manipulation of these is in the direction they don't turn naturally.
Striking to these is acceptable as well.

Joints are integral to maintaining structure.
Relentlessly hurt the joint and you compromise structure.

work on chin na to improve your ability to sink your claws in and keep em in.

[ShaolinDan]

Most common starting point for eagle claw (which is where almost all my grabbing skill comes from is wrist--though often (usually?) contact begins with forearms first...from there it can move to any joint (or just strike).

One comment about the dangers of the 'fold' with wrist grab...if you've got the speed/sensitivity, when your opponent folds they basically give you wrist compression or chicken wing.

[RonBlair]

I go for clothing to grab. It's the easier and doesn't move like a joint or a wrist.

[SPJ]

If we look at the following contact points:

Your

1. hand grab on your opponent's wrist.
2. forearm touch on your opponent's forearm.
3. hand grab on your opponent's elbow.
4. hand press on your opponent's upper arm.
5. forearm touch on your opponent's upper arm.
6. upper arm touch on your opponent's upper arm.
7. shoulder touch on your opponent's shoulder.

You may see that the distance between you are your opponent is getting closer and closer from 1 to 7.

Which contact points do you prefer and why? Could you share your experience here?

If you are a thrower or grappler, these points are important to consider.

If you are a striker or kicker, you may side step or dodge the opponent's arm and deliver the strikes without contacting his arm.

--

If the opponent is slow or sluggish, we may enter some controlling of his arms at contact points.

If the opponent is fast, there is no room or time to do any contact or maneuvers.

--

[SPJ]

This is always true in all situations. My teacher always said that, "Whatever skill that I taught you, it won't work on me."

IMO, some contact points are good and some contact points are bad. For example,

- If your hand grab on your opponent's wrist, his elbow can drop into your chest.
- If your forearm touch your opponent's forearm, he can borrow your force and give you a hook punch.

In other words, any contact points between the "outer gate - wrist" to "middle gate - elbow" is dangerous. Any contact points from the "middle gate - elbow" to "inner gate - shoulder" are much safer.

The forearm touch forearm is comonly used in many TCMA training drill. How do you reduce your risk to the minimum?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJGndrjP0i8 (at 1.05)

In Ba Ji fist, we solve the senario like this

If you grab the opponent's wrist, you pull his arm toward your waist

at the same time you move in close with your steps.

You straighten his arm downward and forward. He may not bend or sink elbow.

You rotate your waist to further your pressuring his elbow and shoulder.

He is off his balance.

You may trip, strike or throw.

This is called Xiao Chan or small entanglement.

This was the lesson one, lesson 2 and lesson last.

---

There are many other methods.

:)

[David Jamieson]

I go for clothing to grab. It's the easier and doesn't move like a joint or a wrist.

Indeed, clothing is the easy target, but it does move.
In many cases this is good, like when you can jersey a guy. :D

[-N-]

Indeed, clothing is the easy target, but it does move.

Sleeve is one that I used often when sparring karate guys. Easier than wrist.

Get the gi sleeve, twist to lock up his wrist, kind of like when twisting a collar to tighten the neck.

Control points: gi sleeve twist, shin to calf, forearm to neck.

[-N-]

If you grab the opponent's wrist, you pull his arm toward your waist

at the same time you move in close with your steps.

That is one that I like also.

Hand to wrist, torso to back of elbow, hip/hip or leg/leg, forearm to shoulder/neck/head.

[-N-]

Contact points for me are those that compromise the structure of the opponent.
Contact can be done by a strike ( with varying degrees of force) or by a grab ( grappling).
While I tend to favour those closest to the center like elbows, shoulders, knees and hips, there is a time and a place for wrists and ankles and even fingers and ears.
That said my favorite are elbows and shoulder on the arms, knees on the legs, hips on the core and neck and head on the upper area.
The old adage of where the head goes the body follows is quite correct and valuable.
I tend to apply force in a way that compromises the whole body structure and not just the limb or area in question.

+1 all that.
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[Robinhood]

Contact point place is not that important if you use it for penetrating connection purpose. If only surface contact then it does matter.