Yin and Yang principle?

[Yoshiyahu]

In Wing Chun what is the Yin Yang principle?

How is observed,practiced or followed?

Sayings of the Kuit Kuen:

"- Know the difference between Yin and Yang, real and feigned. Take advantage of any available opportunity. "

"- The Yin Yang principle should be thoroughly understood. "

[YouKnowWho]

Yin is for defense and Yang is for offense.

[Yoshiyahu]

Yin is for defense and Yang is for offense.

Please elaborate...Please share some techniques, utilization and definition of how one uses Yin to defend and how one uses Yang to attack?

[YouKnowWho]

- Yang is "head on collision" that your hard fist meet your opponent's poor face. No example needs there.

- Ying is "rear end collision" that you borrow your opponent's force and lead him into the emptiness. A simple example, your opponent shoots at your leg, you put your hands behind his neck, pull and press his head down to the ground and let him to kiss dirt.

[Yoshiyahu]

- Yang is "head on collision" that your hard fist meet your opponent's poor face. No example needs there.

- Ying is "rear end collision" that you borrow your opponent's force and lead him into the emptiness. A simple example, your opponent shoots at your leg, you put your hands behind his neck, pull and press his head down to the ground and let him to kiss dirt.

wow the yin example..is also we do as well!

[stonecrusher69]

In Wing Chun what is the Yin Yang principle?

How is observed,practiced or followed?

Sayings of the Kuit Kuen:

"- Know the difference between Yin and Yang, real and feigned. Take advantage of any available opportunity. "

"- The Yin Yang principle should be thoroughly understood. "

the yin/yang principle is not observed. You learn it right in the beginning in the SLT and continues right up Chi Sao where it is mastered and then transfored in to fighting. Its just a way of useing your body in a relaxed,flexable,flowing way. thsts the way i use it anyway.

[stonecrusher69]

Yin?Yang cant be learnt by talking about it or reading some kuen kit.

[Robinhood]

Ying and Yang can be real simple on first level, and can be a real eye opener at high level. A whole book can be written on application using it, the principle is everywhere.

At fist level, yang meets yang on same vector, stronger yang dominate.

Yang meets Yin backed by Yang, different story.

[stonecrusher69]

Ying and Yang can be real simple on first level, and can be a real eye opener at high level. A whole book can be written on application using it, the principle is everywhere.

At fist level, yang meets yang on same vector, stronger yang dominate.

Yang meets Yin backed by Yang, different story.

sure its harder to train your body to use yin strenght instead of brute strenght.

[Hendrik]

How to train the body with ying strength ?

[stonecrusher69]

How to train the body with ying strength ?

easy find a sifu who knows and bai si to him. Thats what i did. Not trying to be deceiving but some things should not be shared in a public forum.

[Yoshiyahu]

easy find a sifu who knows and bai si to him. Thats what i did. Not trying to be deceiving but some things should not be shared in a public forum.

why not? why shouldnt some things be shared in a public forum?

[YouKnowWho]

The following kind of online discussion always bother me big time.

A: You guys don't know sh!t. I'm the only person who know how to do it.
B: Would you mind to share your training method here?
C: I would love to know it too.
A: Somethings should not be shared in a public forum. If we ever meet face to face, I can help you to open your eyes.

There are only 2 things that you shouldn't share in public forum.

- Your best techniques.
- How to counter it.

[Yoshiyahu]

You forgot the secret Dim Mak move how to strike your opponent from fifty feet away with out even touching him phyiscally but using your chi to kill him over dead...because you can displace the energy in the air an send it 100 miles away to its target!



The following kind of online discussion always bother me big time.

A: You guys don't know sh!t. I'm the only person who know how to do it.
B: Would you mind to share your training method here?
C: I would love to know it too.
A: Somethings should not be shared in a public forum. If we ever meet face to face, I can help you to open your eyes.

There are only 2 things that you shouldn't share in public forum.

- Your best techniques.
- How to counter it.

[Hendrik]

Do you guys seriously believe in ying strength .....ect as discuss in this thread?

[YouKnowWho]

How to train the body with ying strength ?

The Ying strength is your opponent's strength that you borrow. You can only train how to borrow. You can't train how to develop your opponent's strength. It's not your strength anyway.

[wingchunner]

For me, yin and yang are a tool for analysis. If I feel too much yang, I ask where can I be more yin and vice versa. It is rare that when I practice I do not do some type of analysis on what I'm working on. Where am I heavy? Where am I light? Where am I tense? Where am I relaxed? Where am I open? Where am I closed? etc. To utilize this tool for analysis opens opportunities for me to evaluate my progress and my understanding of my training.

Marty

[Phil Redmond]

Block/Parry soft. Strike hard. It's not that easy either. You have to be able to use both hemispheres of your brain independently. Like a piano player playing two different rhythms simultaneously. :)

[Yoshiyahu]

Do you guys seriously believe in ying strength .....ect as discuss in this thread?

Do you mean Yin? like soft strenght...I think it is possible to train Yin Strength...but thats just me...

But please share with me if you think its possible...i see Yin as the opposite of Yang...So if Yang is hard training Yin is soft training...

Yin is internal and Yang is External right...

If you train only Yang you will be very strong but not relaxed or agile enough to apply that strength...


An example would be

Yang
-power lifting, weight training for the upper body and lower body, squats, benchpress
-calesthiestics, running, jump rope, sparring
-wooden man, kicking a wooden post,hitting a makira board, striking a punching bag


If you do this but dont stretch or nothing you wont be any good...

Yin
-strecthing, Chi Kung, Breathing exercises, Meditation
-form practicing, Punching in the air, walking, practice stepping lightly
-kicking in the air, chi sau, shadow boxing


With out the Yin you wont be able to utilize your yang!

[Yoshiyahu]

The Ying strength is your opponent's strength that you borrow. You can only train how to borrow. You can't train how to develop your opponent's strength. It's not your strength anyway.

Do you also have Yin strength?

Can you develop it?

[Robinhood]

You need both, and learn to use them together, that is what MA is.

[trubblman]

In Wing Chun what is the Yin Yang principle?

How is observed,practiced or followed?

Sayings of the Kuit Kuen:

"- Know the difference between Yin and Yang, real and feigned. Take advantage of any available opportunity. "

"- The Yin Yang principle should be thoroughly understood. "


Yang is strong; yin is pliant or yielding. If you ever get a chance to read a book called What is Tai Chi, he provides insight on what is Yin/Yang. In short, it seems like
you can grasp the concept if you are thoroughly steeped in Chinese cultural. He indicates that its a concept that Chinese can grasp almost intuitively.

[imperialtaichi]

Simple test:

Try balancing a snooker cue on your finger....

Do you focus on moving your finger (movement, Yang) or do you stare at the top of the cue (Yi, Yin)?

When I contact an opponent, I don't focus on the contact point (moving the finger), I focus on the opponent's power source (top of the cue).

Low level fighting, focus on the finger (epic fail). Medium level, focus on both (fail). Aim, focus on the purpose (Yi) and let the Yi guide your body without conscious effort (winning). No magic here, just the correct mind-set.

[YouKnowWho]

Do you also have Yin strength?

Can you develop it?
It's hard to discuss on this if we don't have proper definition for Yin strength. Some people defines mingjing as Yang, anjing as Ying, and huajing as 1/2 Yang and 1/2 Yin.

To me, I prefer to call all power that you can generate are Yang power. When you make love to your love one, if you are on top, you are using Yang strength. If she is on top, you are using Yin strength (not your strength. You just borrow it).

[Phil Redmond]

why not? why shouldnt some things be shared in a public forum?
Agreed, that's one of the problems with TCMA. The secret is . . . . .ta da. . . there is no secret. :rolleyes:

[YouKnowWho]

Agreed, that's one of the problems with TCMA. The secret is . . . . .ta da. . . there is no secret. :rolleyes:
If someone is not willing to share, he should not get involved with discussion in the first place.

[trubblman]

Agreed, that's one of the problems with TCMA. The secret is . . . . .ta da. . . there is no secret. :rolleyes:

There is a secret. The problem is that the secret is often right in front of the student's (our) eyes; he or she does not pick up on it.

[Yoshiyahu]

Agreed, that's one of the problems with TCMA. The secret is . . . . .ta da. . . there is no secret. :rolleyes:

my gung fu is so mystical and esoteric...i can not share all the details with everyone!!!


Correction...I will only not share what i do not know or what i am still learning!

[LoneTiger108]

You need both, and learn to use them together, that is what MA is.

Great post :)

Snake = Yin/Yum
Crane = Yang/Yeurng

The Yum Yeurng level in my own training was simply an area of therapeutic practise that we had to go through very early on. It's as simple as co-ordinating the left and right hand, the upper and lower body and shouldn't get too complex imho.

The Internal/External method is also a Yum Yeurng but I strongly advised to acheive a 'balance' here, after all that is what the Yum Yeurng teaches us. Balance.

Don't view them as opposites, but as complimenataries ;)

In fact my own approach to coaching specializes in this method too
www.theyumyeurngacademy.co.uk

[Yoshiyahu]

Interesting...how ever i see the snake as Yang and the crane is Yin! But its just my opinion i suppose...when you attack you utilize a snake core or snake engine as hendrix would say...when you defend you utilize a wing arm or wing hand like Tan sau or Bong Sau or Fok Sau.

The structure for attack is more snake with darting steps. The structure for dissipating force is more crane in that you swallow energy and bring it to nothingness. Snake is more elusive like a boxer it just keeps moving from side to side as it attacks. Where Crane recieves force and lets it go
Great post :)

Snake = Yin/Yum
Crane = Yang/Yeurng

The Yum Yeurng level in my own training was simply an area of therapeutic practise that we had to go through very early on. It's as simple as co-ordinating the left and right hand, the upper and lower body and shouldn't get too complex imho.

The Internal/External method is also a Yum Yeurng but I strongly advised to acheive a 'balance' here, after all that is what the Yum Yeurng teaches us. Balance.

Don't view them as opposites, but as complimenataries ;)

In fact my own approach to coaching specializes in this method too
www.theyumyeurngacademy.co.uk

[mjw]

I once worked with a guy who was so into the theory I don't think it was good for his own good every blocking hand becomes a strife and vice vera he said which is fine however when I doubled up a lap with a low palm to the ribs followed by a head strike with the same hand he was so thrown off.......

[Yoshiyahu]

I once worked with a guy who was so into the theory I don't think it was good for his own good every blocking hand becomes a strife and vice vera he said which is fine however when I doubled up a lap with a low palm to the ribs followed by a head strike with the same hand he was so thrown off.......

Thats a Basic technique...his wing chun must have not practiced that technique!

[LoneTiger108]

Interesting...how ever i see the snake as Yang and the crane is Yin! But its just my opinion i suppose...when you attack you utilize a snake core or snake engine as hendrix would say...when you defend you utilize a wing arm or wing hand like Tan sau or Bong Sau or Fok Sau.

The structure for attack is more snake with darting steps. The structure for dissipating force is more crane in that you swallow energy and bring it to nothingness. Snake is more elusive like a boxer it just keeps moving from side to side as it attacks. Where Crane recieves force and lets it go

Very interesting to see we have opposite ideas, yet I am aware the yum/yeurng principle is one of duality so I guess nobody can be wrong here! I also have seen others describe yum movements how I describe yeurng movements, and once explained both had their strengths and weaknesses.

After practising Shotokan when I was a kid, I think I can safely say that the impression I got from White Crane was that it was primarily a hard style. The snake itself is soft-bodied, it utilizes attacks to the nervous system and coils around its prey to restrict movement. These stuffs are very internal imho, but like you say it's only my opinion.

The cranes bones, beak and claws are not soft, and although it may have internal energies like the spit and swallow they are designed more for stamina (flying long distances) than for soft elusive training.

When we practised the snake and crane interactions it was mainly the snake that stood ground to protect it's nest, coiled and waiting, while the crane moved around, darting in and out trying to snatch the opportunities. In this specific case, the snake is defending and the crane attacks, but of course we switched this around too and both characters look and more importantly 'feel' different in each set-up.

Both animals are a distinctive Yum Yeurng too, unlike any other combination, going way back to the original sects of snake and crane (Taoism and Buddhism) Even if you look at these two religions or 'ways' the Buddhism is much more external and in the public domain, whereas the Taoists are more removed, internal and out of sight. This I feel is a good place to start any research into the Yin Yang / Yum Yeurng principles :)

Just my thoughts...

[mjw]

Thats a Basic technique...his wing chun must have not practiced that technique!

It seemed that he was expecting the other hand to strike yadi dadi.

[Yoshiyahu]

Thanks for your post. I guess I can say both are good ways to look at it...


But I dont see Wing Chun as attacking as a crane...Wing chun wants to end the fight quickly by getting in close like a snake and coiling around its opponent and hitting vital areas.

"Body Like Crane and Hands Like Swimming Dragons!"

The body movements are like the white crane. You move all around your opponents flank while attacking him. But the Bridging hands are like that of the snake...

"Coil around its prey" - chi sau, trapping, flanking

"Attacks to the nervous system" - protect and attack the center line

Your center line houses the (conceptual meridian). Priamary attacks from Wing Chun is the adams applpe, the nose, and groin area. Preferably the nuts. You attack these points on the centerline. Wing Chun does go force for force. It gives. It goes around force. You do not do hard hand blocks, do you. Nor do you try to force your way into an person who has a strong defense. You go around the force so you can strike, or you move the obstruction out the way while attacking. Attack and Defend simultaneously is evitable.

When you chi sau. You are utilizing a snake idea of constricting around its opponent. Most Wing Chun out there do not utilize crane beak and claws. Most Wing Chun out there do not take the time to develop that Kung Nor do they develop the snake kung. But even though thats not the case you still have certain ideas. I just see the body mechninacs as crane and attacking as snake!

Snake punches are they not more linear? Like a snake darts or thrust in?

Look at the defensive hand techniques. Tan Sau, Fook Sau and Bong Sau...Are they not Wing and Beak of the white crane?

Defend with crane and attack with snake. Bil Gee, Thrusting Punch, is akin to snake

Bong Sau wing arm is akin to White crane!



Very interesting to see we have opposite ideas, yet I am aware the yum/yeurng principle is one of duality so I guess nobody can be wrong here! I also have seen others describe yum movements how I describe yeurng movements, and once explained both had their strengths and weaknesses.

After practising Shotokan when I was a kid, I think I can safely say that the impression I got from White Crane was that it was primarily a hard style. The snake itself is soft-bodied, it utilizes attacks to the nervous system and coils around its prey to restrict movement. These stuffs are very internal imho, but like you say it's only my opinion.

The cranes bones, beak and claws are not soft, and although it may have internal energies like the spit and swallow they are designed more for stamina (flying long distances) than for soft elusive training.

When we practised the snake and crane interactions it was mainly the snake that stood ground to protect it's nest, coiled and waiting, while the crane moved around, darting in and out trying to snatch the opportunities. In this specific case, the snake is defending and the crane attacks, but of course we switched this around too and both characters look and more importantly 'feel' different in each set-up.

Both animals are a distinctive Yum Yeurng too, unlike any other combination, going way back to the original sects of snake and crane (Taoism and Buddhism) Even if you look at these two religions or 'ways' the Buddhism is much more external and in the public domain, whereas the Taoists are more removed, internal and out of sight. This I feel is a good place to start any research into the Yin Yang / Yum Yeurng principles :)

Just my thoughts...

lol ha ha..needs to be prepared for anything!


It seemed that he was expecting the other hand to strike yadi dadi.

[LoneTiger108]

Thanks for your post. I guess I can say both are good ways to look at it...

But I dont see Wing Chun as attacking as a crane...Wing chun wants to end the fight quickly by getting in close like a snake and coiling around its opponent and hitting vital areas.

"Body Like Crane and Hands Like Swimming Dragons!"

The body movements are like the white crane. You move all around your opponents flank while attacking him. But the Bridging hands are like that of the snake...

"Coil around its prey" - chi sau, trapping, flanking

"Attacks to the nervous system" - protect and attack the center line

Your center line houses the (conceptual meridian). Priamary attacks from Wing Chun is the adams applpe, the nose, and groin area. Preferably the nuts. You attack these points on the centerline. Wing Chun does go force for force. It gives. It goes around force. You do not do hard hand blocks, do you. Nor do you try to force your way into an person who has a strong defense. You go around the force so you can strike, or you move the obstruction out the way while attacking. Attack and Defend simultaneously is evitable.

When you chi sau. You are utilizing a snake idea of constricting around its opponent. Most Wing Chun out there do not utilize crane beak and claws. Most Wing Chun out there do not take the time to develop that Kung Nor do they develop the snake kung. But even though thats not the case you still have certain ideas. I just see the body mechninacs as crane and attacking as snake!

Snake punches are they not more linear? Like a snake darts or thrust in?

Look at the defensive hand techniques. Tan Sau, Fook Sau and Bong Sau...Are they not Wing and Beak of the white crane?

Defend with crane and attack with snake. Bil Gee, Thrusting Punch, is akin to snake

Bong Sau wing arm is akin to White crane!

All relevant and good discussion points, but I feel that we are ultimately dealing with Yum Yeurng principles here and so each can be the other at times. I don't like to limit it down to the snake is this technique or form and the crane is this one etc, unless it's at the very beginning and I'm highlighting a foundation understanding. What I like to do is promote strong Wing Chun. End of. And I believe a balance is required to acheive this.

As an example, the Seed of Bong, Tan and Fook belong to both the snake and crane fme. And one of the best basic understandings I was taught which is similar to you (I think) was the hands were related to the snake and the legs to the crane, but this is interchangeable and can be divided further into ratios like the 50:50, 60:40, 70:30, 80:20 arguments and so on.

To highlight another idea, the snake body of bongsau (a heigung exercise) was first shown by Bruce Lee in ETD ;) Notice the expansion of the under arm 'wings'? Similar to the head of a cobra, no?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/85/The.Way.Of.The.Dragon.1972.Bruce.Lee.flex.front.jp g/220px-The.Way.Of.The.Dragon.1972.Bruce.Lee.flex.front.jp g

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1151170

To highlight another idea, the snake body of bongsau (a heigung exercise) was first shown by Bruce Lee in ETD ;) Notice the expansion of the under arm 'wings'? Similar to the head of a cobra, no?
------------------------------------------------------
NO!

[LoneTiger108]

NO!

And what makes you say that Joy?? Were you taught any Heigung by Sifu Fong?

[Vajramusti]

And what makes you say that Joy?? Were you taught any Heigung by Sifu Fong?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bruce Lee and heigung! Are you serious?

joy

[LoneTiger108]

Bruce Lee and heigung! Are you serious?

Absolutely ;)

That is exactly what this picture illustrates Joy

[Yoshiyahu]

I will bow out this conversation I dont know enough of chi gung in comparison with dynamic tension to comment...

But I always thought Bruce Lee did Dynamic Tension...exercises similiar to Hung Gar iron wire set. Where he tighten his muscles or flex his muslces as we like to say in America!!!

I do know jun fan father was a wu family tai chi man...An possibly Bruce Lee first martial arts was in fact Tai Chi chaun!



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bruce Lee and heigung! Are you serious?

joy


Absolutely ;)

That is exactly what this picture illustrates Joy

[Vajramusti]

Absolutely ;)

That is exactly what this picture illustrates Joy
--------------------------------------------------------------------
You are welcome to your perceptions. IMO he is showing of his lats-a not untypical
western bodybuilder's pose with his own twist. Breathing is inescapable but not all forms of breathing is hei gung.

joy

[LoneTiger108]

You are welcome to your perceptions. IMO he is showing of his lats-a not untypical western bodybuilder's pose with his own twist. Breathing is inescapable but not all forms of breathing is hei gung.

According to my own training/research anything you do that 'changes' muscles and develops power is heigung, and that would include any and all weightlifing/bodybuilding.

This is not my own perception Joy. It is common knowledge (or it has been considered that by my own Sifu and his before him). Bruce was taught this pose and it was very common in the bodybuilding curcuits at the time. It's definitely not his invention with a little twist!! Just like his JKD really. It all existed before ;)


I will bow out this conversation I dont know enough of chi gung in comparison with dynamic tension to comment...

Dynamic Tension is part of heigung my friend, just a modern term invented by a bloke called Atlas wasn't it?? In the 20's? Copied much later by one of my favourite books ever in the eighties by Harry Wong!!! Classic stuff, but massively misunderstood imhhhho.

[Vajramusti]

According to my own training/research anything you do that 'changes' muscles and develops power is heigung, and that would include any and all weightlifing/bodybuilding.

This is not my own perception Joy. It is common knowledge (or it has been considered that by my own Sifu and his before him). Bruce was taught this pose and it was very common in the bodybuilding curcuits at the time. It's definitely not his invention with a little twist!! Just like his JKD really. It all existed before ;)



Dynamic Tension is part of heigung my friend, just a modern term invented by a bloke called Atlas wasn't it?? In the 20's? Copied much later by one of my favourite books ever in the eighties by Harry Wong!!! Classic stuff, but massively misunderstood imhhhho.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We are on different planets then on hei gung. BTW apparently Charles Atlas turned out to be
partly a fraud... claimed he didn't use weights when in fact he did. Ok- except for the misrepresentation.

joy

[Yoshiyahu]

whats the chinese term for dynamic tension



Dynamic Tension is part of heigung my friend, just a modern term invented by a bloke called Atlas wasn't it?? In the 20's? Copied much later by one of my favourite books ever in the eighties by Harry Wong!!! Classic stuff, but massively misunderstood imhhhho.

[LoneTiger108]

whats the chinese term for dynamic tension

Ngoi Heigung ;) (?)

[Yoshiyahu]

Ngoi Heigung ;) (?)

Thanks alot...i appreaciate that!