Wing Chun Weapons White Crane

[Yoshiyahu]

Weapons of Wing Chun come from Crane...

Snake weapons are Straight Sword and Spear!


Short Swords (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkwdiPpxgCc&feature=related)

Long Pole (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d15nTAnii_U)

[Eric_H]

Nope. Logical fallacy on this one.

[Yoshiyahu]

Nope. Logical fallacy on this one.

please explain can u elaborate?

[JPinAZ]

Really? try reading a little first :)

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

I'll spell it out for you:

Basically, you are saying WC weapons come from crane simply because snake weapons are different from WC weapons. Your reasoning is flawed because first, you are assuming WCK=Snake+Crane (which isn't proven) and second, since snake doesn't have the weapons found in WCK, then they must come from crane!
But that still does not prove WC weapons come from crane, even if there are similarities. Another problem with your 'logic' is there is no proof WCK came directly from crane to begin with.

Also, there are more systems from southern china that use those weapons besides just crane.

Lastly, where is your proof? Or are you just making this conclusion based on a couple video clips?

Flip side to your flawed logic - I could say WCK weapons do NOT come from crane because crane had more than the just the butterfly knives and the long/short pole of WCK. And, crane did not have both long and short pole, so again, WCK weapons could not have come from crane. Does that make it true?

[Yoshiyahu]

Are you saying Crane doesn't have a short pole? Anyway...No this thread is not something i making definite conclusion nor is it based on fact...its merely conjecture to spark a convo an see what peoples opinions are on the matter. Specifically those who make mention of the origins of WC relating back to snake and crane. I have read the history or legend of Pole form being introduced to WC by a shaolin disciple. But I have not heard where the Short Swords originated from or their inceptions to WC outside one story saying monks and nuns would carry short swords in their boots.

Ne way it is just a opinion based thread...


No shred evidence in this topic will be brought to me...just making a topic to talk about....


So where did the Weapons in WC come from?

What influence those two weapons and why not any others?



Really? try reading a little first :)

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

I'll spell it out for you:

Basically, you are saying WC weapons come from crane simply because snake weapons are different from WC weapons. Your reasoning is flawed because first, you are assuming WCK=Snake+Crane (which isn't proven) and second, since snake doesn't have the weapons found in WCK, then they must come from crane!
But that still does not prove WC weapons come from crane, even if there are similarities. Another problem with your 'logic' is there is no proof WCK came directly from crane to begin with.

Also, there are more systems from southern china that use those weapons besides just crane.

Lastly, where is your proof? Or are you just making this conclusion based on a couple video clips?

Flip side to your flawed logic - I could say WCK weapons do NOT come from crane because crane had more than the just the butterfly knives and the long/short pole of WCK. And, crane did not have both long and short pole, so again, WCK weapons could not have come from crane. Does that make it true?

[imperialtaichi]

So where did the Weapons in WC come from?


According to my teacher the knives were originally the good old butcher's knives, which make sense because they are practical, easy to find, easy to use and are "people's knives" which suit the WC philosophy. Over time the handle evolved to present day form.

In KL22 we don't have a long pole, but short poles from waist height to eyebrow height.

[Yoshiyahu]

okY THANKS...i appreactiate your input...very interesting!!!!




According to my teacher the knives were originally the good old butcher's knives, which make sense because they are practical, easy to find, easy to use and are "people's knives" which suit the WC philosophy. Over time the handle evolved to present day form.

In KL22 we don't have a long pole, but short poles from waist height to eyebrow height.

[JPinAZ]

Are you saying Crane doesn't have a short pole? Anyway...No this thread is not something i making definite conclusion nor is it based on fact...its merely conjecture to spark a convo an see what peoples opinions are on the matter.

Maybe a question mark somewhere would have worked better. To most normal people, this will seem like a someone stating a fact: "Weapons of Wing Chun come from Crane". But, thanks for clearing things up :rolleyes:


Specifically those who make mention of the origins of WC relating back to snake and crane.

With that being said, this does seem like it is your conclusion. And you are welcome to your opinion. My 'opinion' was that you're conclusion is based on a logical fallacy as already described. No biggy I guess.


I have read the history or legend of Pole form being introduced to WC by a shaolin disciple. But I have not heard where the Short Swords originated from or their inceptions to WC outside one story saying monks and nuns would carry short swords in their boots.

Ne way it is just a opinion based thread...


No shred evidence in this topic will be brought to me...just making a topic to talk about....


So where did the Weapons in WC come from?

What influence those two weapons and why not any others?

My first though would be, it doesn't matter where they came from. This is like asking 'where do the WCK kicks come from?'. Does it matter? The better question regarding the weapons is, why are the in WCK in the first place?

In HFY WC, a majority of WC's principles/concepts came directly from weapon fighting. WCK's centerline theory draws parallels to spear fighting technology. In HFY, our centerline and many of our Kiu Sau ideas do come directly from spear fighting.

Now, if one can't afford to carry around a spear (for either cost reasons or because of laws prohibiting them), then a long pole would be a good second choice. Not to mention, the long pole was a commonly used tool for various reasons, like carrying water, herding animals, manuvering boats, whatever. Basically, it's a big, cheap stick right?

The knives are a direct extension of a WCK fighters hands. Again, they work under the same philosophy and principles as the hands. So it makes perfect sense why they are in the system today. Plus, they were easy to conceal vs. say, a long sword, spear, kwan do. Those other weapons are a step away from WCK's fighting methods, theories and principles.
Kinda the same reasoning as to why certain chi gung technologies aren't found in WCK - they don't belong because the go against and aren't supportive of the system's rpimary and foundational concepts and body methods ;)

So, instead of asking where these weapons come from, a better question is: why are they in WCK vs. other weapons. IMO, the reasons these weapons are in the system is because they work under the same principles as the system. And also the obvious reason mentioned already: because the knives were easy to hide on one's person as well as being common place (butcher knives), and the pole was a common day tool of the time.

[Yoshiyahu]

Maybe a question mark somewhere would have worked better. To most normal people, this will seem like a someone stating a fact: "Weapons of Wing Chun come from Crane". But, thanks for clearing things up :rolleyes:

Im not most normal people...lol...im above that...im a god! lol now thats a fact!


With that being said, this does seem like it is your conclusion. And you are welcome to your opinion. My 'opinion' was that you're conclusion is based on a logical fallacy as already described. No biggy I guess.

lol...so where is your proof to refute my opinion? why is it that weapons from crane are apart of wing chun?


My first though would be, it doesn't matter where they came from. This is like asking 'where do the WCK kicks come from?'. Does it matter? The better question regarding the weapons is, why are the in WCK in the first place?

why are the weapons of wing chun in there in the first place? Please give me your opinion?


In HFY WC, a majority of WC's principles/concepts came directly from weapon fighting. WCK's centerline theory draws parallels to spear fighting technology. In HFY, our centerline and many of our Kiu Sau ideas do come directly from spear fighting.

Does your wing chun use a spear? Do you have a spear form?
why doesn't wing chun have spear fighting today?


Now, if one can't afford to carry around a spear (for either cost reasons or because of laws prohibiting them), then a long pole would be a good second choice. Not to mention, the long pole was a commonly used tool for various reasons, like carrying water, herding animals, manuvering boats, whatever. Basically, it's a big, cheap stick right?

A long 7' to 9' foot pole is illegal to carry around in todays time too buddy you know this right? so therefore your wrong again!!! I never heard of WC ever using a spear...can you please enlighten me on person in history utilizing the spear?


The knives are a direct extension of a WCK fighters hands. Again, they work under the same philosophy and principles as the hands. So it makes perfect sense why they are in the system today. Plus, they were easy to conceal vs. say, a long sword, spear, kwan do. Those other weapons are a step away from WCK's fighting methods, theories and principles.


Kinda the same reasoning as to why certain chi gung technologies aren't found in WCK - they don't belong because the go against and aren't supportive of the system's rpimary and foundational concepts and body methods ;)


This topic aint about chi gung!!! by while you at please list wing chun primary and foundational concepts and body methods for me? and explain how to pole form steps away from that?



So, instead of asking where these weapons come from, a better question is: why are they in WCK vs. other weapons. IMO, the reasons these weapons are in the system is because they work under the same principles as the system. And also the obvious reason mentioned already: because the knives were easy to hide on one's person as well as being common place (butcher knives), and the pole was a common day tool of the time.

but you stated that the pole and spear are a step away from the principles like chi gung is!!!

[JPinAZ]

Why are weapons in WC?? Really?? :confused:

Forget it. You're so clueless, I'm not wasting any more time on this with you untill you can reply with an actual thought/counterpoint of your own and without having to resort to yelling.
Whatever substance your abusing has erased any form of logical thinking from your head anyway, so it's pointless answering your absured questions.

[couch]

According to my teacher the knives were originally the good old butcher's knives, which make sense because they are practical, easy to find, easy to use and are "people's knives" which suit the WC philosophy. Over time the handle evolved to present day form.

In KL22 we don't have a long pole, but short poles from waist height to eyebrow height.

May I ask what big motions/difference you have noticed between the long pole and your shorter poles?

Not withstanding distance, with a shorter pole you're able to do a few different things.

I studied a Kenpo Karate/Kung-Fu mish-mash and used a staff up to arm pit and eyebrow heights so I'm interested.

[Yoshiyahu]

Why are weapons in WC?? Really?? :confused:

Forget it. You're so clueless, I'm not wasting any more time on this with you untill you can reply with an actual thought/counterpoint of your own and without having to resort to yelling.
Whatever substance your abusing has erased any form of logical thinking from your head anyway, so it's pointless answering your absured questions.

Why do you refust to answer my questions?

You just call me a drugger to advoid my questions huh...now who is the one yelling?

[JPinAZ]

Why do you refust to answer my questions?

You just call me a drugger to advoid my questions huh...now who is the one yelling?

WTF, I already answered why I'm not going to answer your questions in my last post that you quoted.
That's the problem, I answer your 'questions' and you can't even comprehend what I've said. This is clear by your further 'questions' which are so off track from what I said I can't even follow what you're talking about. :eek:

And, you keep asking stupid questions like this "why are the weapons of wing chun in there in the first place?" Did you really have to ask me that? Are you really that dense that you don't even know what a weapon is used for or why it's used?

If you're not on drugs, then you've got worse problems than I thought. I was trying to give you an out - at least a drug abuse problem give you some form of excuse and a chance at getting better...

[Yoshiyahu]

saying it self evident is not an answer to why those two particular weapons were added into the system!!!! There are other short weapons...like ax or short wooden sticks. That could be added...Why was the pole added?




WTF, I already answered why I'm not going to answer your questions in my last post that you quoted.
That's the problem, I answer your 'questions' and you can't even comprehend what I've said. This is clear by your further 'questions' which are so off track from what I said I can't even follow what you're talking about. :eek:

And, you keep asking stupid questions like this "why are the weapons of wing chun in there in the first place?" Did you really have to ask me that? Are you really that dense that you don't even know what a weapon is used for or why it's used?

If you're not on drugs, then you've got worse problems than I thought. I was trying to give you an out - at least a drug abuse problem give you some form of excuse and a chance at getting better...

[Eric_H]

saying it self evident is not an answer to why those two particular weapons were added into the system!!!! There are other short weapons...like ax or short wooden sticks. That could be added...Why was the pole added?

Yoshiyahu,

Maybe it would be better to present your thinking and theory on why and allow people to debate and discuss of their own accord rather than continually asking for information like some kind of beggar. A discussion is where people provide arguments and evidence, all you do is ask questions and provide very little. Makes actual discussion pretty difficult.

[JPinAZ]

Yoshiyahu,

Maybe it would be better to present your thinking and theory on why and allow people to debate and discuss of their own accord rather than continually asking for information like some kind of beggar. A discussion is where people provide arguments and evidence, all you do is ask questions and provide very little. Makes actual discussion pretty difficult.

Haha - try near impossible :)

[Yoshiyahu]

Yoshiyahu,

Maybe it would be better to present your thinking and theory on why and allow people to debate and discuss of their own accord rather than continually asking for information like some kind of beggar. A discussion is where people provide arguments and evidence, all you do is ask questions and provide very little. Makes actual discussion pretty difficult.

I love debating on topics i didnt create...but if its topic i created i try my best to asked thought provoking questions to get a discussion started. i do not simply seek to push my own thoughts and views and opinions on topics i create just to see where everyone else is at with their WC. to listen to learn, compare and contrast. To see what things I have in common with others or to see what I havent thought of yet. On my topics I dont like pushing forth an agenda...lets say I believe WC comes From the white crane and not the snake. or believe vice versa. or both...I simply asked questions to see why people think differently an keep the discussion going an popular. If its topic I dont create i will debate...sometimes i play double advocate and debate a nonsense stand point to get people to talk about that topic especially if its one i really like.

To push my agenda or opinion on my own topics make my topic utterly useless. its like saying...i wrote this topic an all other opinions are wrong no matter what you write...i wont to hear opinions that disagree...I just dislike those who i feel are being belittling or condescending with their post!

[JPinAZ]

I love debating on topics i didnt create...but if its topic i created i try my best to asked thought provoking questions to get a discussion started.

Issue is, oncehhte discussion is started, you still don't partake in it, other than asking countless questions and having to be spoon fed. When learning a MA, this won't get you far. You have to think and do things for yourself. That applies here too. For the most part you just come off as a desperate beggar asking for everything yet sharing very little.


.sometimes i play double advocate and debate a nonsense stand point

So now you are admitting to being a troll. Wonderful.. :rolleyes:


its like saying...i wrote this topic an all other opinions are wrong no matter what you write...i wont to hear opinions that disagree...I just dislike those who i feel are being belittling or condescending with their post!

But isn't this the exact behavior many people have been calling you out on?

[Yoshiyahu]

Issue is, oncehhte discussion is started, you still don't partake in it, other than asking countless questions and having to be spoon fed. When learning a MA, this won't get you far. You have to think and do things for yourself. That applies here too. For the most part you just come off as a desperate beggar asking for everything yet sharing very little.



So now you are admitting to being a troll. Wonderful.. :rolleyes:



But isn't this the exact behavior many people have been calling you out on?

Who has called me out for belitting someone or being arrogant?

Why do you feel trolling is playing devils advocate for the sake of discussion an to see what people think...

Look i give plenty of opinions on other subjects you and two others always seem to bash them...an when i asked you questions on why you disagree you come back an say i dont share my views

[JPinAZ]

Who has called me out for belitting someone or being arrogant?

Huh, WTF are you talking about?? No where in my post, neither in what I quoted nor in my response, did I say one thing about belittling or arrogance. What kind of drugs are you on?


Why do you feel trolling is playing devils advocate for the sake of discussion an to see what people think...

Forums for the most part are for sharing what you think and understand. IMO "debating a nonsense stand point" is trolling.


Look i give plenty of opinions on other subjects you and two others always seem to bash them...an when i asked you questions on why you disagree you come back an say i dont share my views

Stop your **** whining and grow some thicker skin this is only an internet forum. I'm not bashing anything - If I don't agree with you (which is most times), I'll say so. BFD. But I always give reasons based on my own understanding and experience to back it up, and often times have to repeat myself with you.

Like I've already told you - I stopped responding because you were having severe reading comprehention issues, continue to do so. Prime example is the belittling/arrogance comment you made. :rolleyes:
It's not my fault you can't comprehend plain english and simple reasoning. I'm done repeating myself with you - like someone already mentioned, the words just bounce back like I'm talking to a brick wall. This is my last post on this thread. Hopefully I have better luck on another one.

Just a thought, tou might want to reread this a few times, Eric hit the nail on the head:

Yoshiyahu,

Maybe it would be better to present your thinking and theory on why and allow people to debate and discuss of their own accord rather than continually asking for information like some kind of beggar. A discussion is where people provide arguments and evidence, all you do is ask questions and provide very little. Makes actual discussion pretty difficult.

[Yoshiyahu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu
its like saying...i wrote this topic an all other opinions are wrong no matter what you write...i wont to hear opinions that disagree...I just dislike those who i feel are being belittling or condescending with their post!


But isn't this the exact behavior many people have been calling you out on?

Re-read this post...Thats why i said the following? This is What you said (http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1152239&postcount=18)


Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu
Who has called me out for belitting someone or being arrogant?

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1152239&postcount=18


Huh, WTF are you talking about?? No where in my post, neither in what I quoted nor in my response, did I say one thing about belittling or arrogance. What kind of drugs are you on?



Forums for the most part are for sharing what you think and understand. IMO "debating a nonsense stand point" is trolling.



Stop your **** whining and grow some thicker skin this is only an internet forum. I'm not bashing anything - If I don't agree with you (which is most times), I'll say so. BFD. But I always give reasons based on my own understanding and experience to back it up, and often times have to repeat myself with you.

Like I've already told you - I stopped responding because you were having severe reading comprehention issues, continue to do so. Prime example is the belittling/arrogance comment you made. :rolleyes:
It's not my fault you can't comprehend plain english and simple reasoning. I'm done repeating myself with you - like someone already mentioned, the words just bounce back like I'm talking to a brick wall. This is my last post on this thread. Hopefully I have better luck on another one.

Just a thought, tou might want to reread this a few times, Eric hit the nail on the head: