Compare Taiji push hands with Chinese wrestling

[YouKnowWho]

If we compare these 2 clips, we can see some

- similiar such as borrow force, yield, sticky, follow, lead your opponent into the emptiness, ...
- difference such as Chinese wrestling use more leg moves, and end with single leg balance.

Why can't we mix both into one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZouSsrTGNE

[mawali]

Of course, we can BUT most will say that it is not "internal'.

[SPJ]

yes.

It is always a question of formats or rule sets.

http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/shaolinchuandao

check out the rules before entering.

that is.

:)

[Dragonzbane76]

Of course, we can BUT most will say that it is not "internal'


- similiar such as borrow force, yield, sticky, follow, lead your opponent into the emptiness, ...
- difference such as Chinese wrestling use more leg moves, and end with single leg balance.

in the end it's all one thing that's been around for a long long time and it's not some mythical proclaimation it mechanics and training.

[EarthDragon]

The second clip was from shifu John Irving and sifu gino's tourney @ case western univesity in Ohio. I was one of the judges therer then offered a seminar there with shuai jiao shifu from California the next day on sunday. great tourney, awesome tournout will be goign again next year. I cant say enough about it

[ginosifu]

The second clip was from shifu John Irving and sifu gino's tourney @ case western univesity in Ohio. I was one of the judges therer then offered a seminar there with shuai jiao shifu from California the next day on sunday. great tourney, awesome tournout will be goign again next year. I cant say enough about it

Thx for the kind word Sifu.

My personal Opinion on Push Hands / Shaui Chiao:

They are both the same thing. Both borrow energy from your opponent. Both grapple, lock and throw. Push Hands, SC, Judo, BJJ etc etc all work on sensitivity thru constant grappling and touching each other.

For self defense they are close to the same. For competition they only differ thru different rule sets.

ginosifu

[RonBlair]

In the push hands clip the guy getting thrown around is only resisting up to a certain point. Then he just stops resisting allowing the other guy to throw him around. Kinda pointless.

[EarthDragon]

ron blair, really? you can see and feel that from your computer screen?

I highly doubt it. and if you see how far and quick he is thrown this is certainly not the case.

[RonBlair]

ron blair, really? you can see and feel that from your computer screen?

I highly doubt it. and if you see how far and quick he is thrown this is certainly not the case.

Earthdragon, are you saying you can "feel" what's going on better through your computer screen? Lol. Based on your argument your opinion is worth as much as mine unless you were actually there.

[Robinhood]

If we compare these 2 clips, we can see some

- similiar such as borrow force, yield, sticky, follow, lead your opponent into the emptiness, ...
- difference such as Chinese wrestling use more leg moves, and end with single leg balance.

Why can't we mix both into one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZouSsrTGNE

Mix both for what ?, do you want to create another sport, just change rules and you will create another sport.

The guy in black in first video is just a guy on higher level than other guys, so he uses less movement to get job done, that's all nothing to do with combine this or that, less movement equals higher level, not more moving.

[EarthDragon]

I was saying that you cant make the assumtion that he was giving up. it didnt look like it to me. But I see your poitn the same can be said about him not givng up... touche'

[Robinhood]

I think the guy realized that what he was doing was not working and tried something else that really did not work. I think he ran out of moves or options.

[YouKnowWho]

Mix both for what ?

Integrate sweep, hook, cut, sickle, twist, bite, sharpen. spring, block, break, lift, ... into Taiji push hand.

[ginosifu]

If we compare these 2 clips, we can see some

- similiar such as borrow force, yield, sticky, follow, lead your opponent into the emptiness, ...
- difference such as Chinese wrestling use more leg moves, and end with single leg balance.

Why can't we mix both into one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZouSsrTGNE

You know that GM Chang learned Yang Style Tai Chi from General Ma (I think it was him). I would assume that GM Chang learned Push Hands as well.

I have been working with GM Chang's student, Chi Hsiu Weng AKA Dr. Weng from California for over 15 years and he has emphasized that Tai Chi and Shuai Chiao are linked like brother and sister.

Sure you can mix them both into one. However, my opinion is that they are already together.

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

You know that GM Chang learned Yang Style Tai Chi from General Ma (I think it was him). I would assume that GM Chang learned Push Hands as well.

I have been working with GM Chang's student, Chi Hsiu Weng AKA Dr. Weng from California for over 15 years and he has emphasized that Tai Chi and Shuai Chiao are linked like brother and sister.

Sure you can mix them both into one. However, my opinion is that they are already together.

ginosifu

GM Chang exchanged his SC with general Li Jing-Lin's Taiji (not general Ma).

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.chinesemartialarts.eu/Images/Li_Jing-Lin.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.chinesemartialarts.eu/LIU%2520BAI-CHUAN.html&h=201&w=151&sz=16&tbnid=4dnbUJUrzIxiLM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=68&zoom=1&docid=85ndf6DgbJbjkM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=U8r7TuyeEMmQsQK21pD2Bg&ved=0CGMQ9QEwCQ&dur=1282

In Chang Taiji, both are integrated.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Tai chi is just internal Shuia Jiao

[Eric Olson]

If we compare these 2 clips, we can see some

- similiar such as borrow force, yield, sticky, follow, lead your opponent into the emptiness, ...
- difference such as Chinese wrestling use more leg moves, and end with single leg balance.

Why can't we mix both into one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZouSsrTGNE

Because in the wrestling clip the opponents are picking each other up and throwing each other. In the Taiji clip the taiji master is listening for when the opponent is off balance and then adding his force to the "throw". Different skills.

EO

[MightyB]

Because in the wrestling clip the opponents are picking each other up and throwing each other. In the Taiji clip the taiji master is listening for when the opponent is off balance and then adding his force to the "throw". Different skills.

EO

Not at all - that's the goal of both. Yielding is the highest level throwing skill that Master Chen Bing demonstrates nicely.

Search Mifune Judo to see demonstrating yielding soft listening to the extreme.

[YouKnowWho]

Because in the wrestling clip the opponents are picking each other up and throwing each other. In the Taiji clip the taiji master is listening for when the opponent is off balance and then adding his force to the "throw". Different skills.

EO

Skill such as, "listening for when the opponent is off balance and then adding his force to the throw" is also used in wrestling as well. The difference is

- wrestler may like to "make" it happen, while
- Taiji guy may like to "wait" it to happen.

[SPJ]

1. push hand drills are good to learn to interact with the opponent's jin

how to contact

how to neutralize

when impeded

how to turn things around etc

you may keep going without actually ending with a throw.



2. I do not like push hand comp

because they are limited and also they kept changing rules.

in other words

might as well just use shuai jiao or judo rules then.

[Dragonzbane76]

wrestler may like to "make" it happen, while
- Taiji guy may like to "wait" it to happen.

I like how you stated that. Good way of putting it. But I've also seen defensive wrestlers. People who go for the counter/or shifting of weight every single time. Wrestling has a more aggressive base, that's just how it's taught, but I've seen it done on a base of defense as well. Freestyle wrestling, which is the HS version in the US, there are many times when you have to wait out your opponent when you are ahead on points and just want to kill time. you go into a defensive, sitting on the outside, counter, mode.

[Eric Olson]

Skill such as, "listening for when the opponent is off balance and then adding his force to the throw" is also used in wrestling as well. The difference is

- wrestler may like to "make" it happen, while
- Taiji guy may like to "wait" it to happen.

I don't think you can "make it happen" in that way without creating an opportunity for your opponent to disrupt your balance. Hence, the difference. The goal of Taiji is to be supple, not stiff, in every movement--and also balanced. Even the movements with a lot of force like kao are executed with suppleness and balance.

When I would push with my old Taiji teacher he could almost instantly find any spot in my body where I was "holding on" with tension. He'd then use that as a fulcrum to unbalance me. Didn't matter if he started by touching my hand, he quickly find that my calf was tight and use that to trip me up.

But, hey, if the force way works for you, then it works. If your opponent is thrown on their head it doesn't make much difference how they got there.

EO

[wenshu]

I don't think you can "make it happen" in that way without creating an opportunity for your opponent to disrupt your balance. Hence, the difference. The goal of Taiji is to be supple, not stiff, in every movement--and also balanced. Even the movements with a lot of force like kao are executed with suppleness and balance.

When I would push with my old Taiji teacher he could almost instantly find any spot in my body where I was "holding on" with tension. He'd then use that as a fulcrum to unbalance me. Didn't matter if he started by touching my hand, he quickly find that my calf was tight and use that to trip me up.

But, hey, if the force way works for you, then it works. If your opponent is thrown on their head it doesn't make much difference how they got there.

EO

That's great if all you're doing is limp dick Senior Citizen Taiji compliancy drills.

What YKW is talking about is making an opening not by forcing it, bo fa li is for the execution once the imbalance has been established. You create the imbalance with a feigned attack.

Sorry, sometimes I forget you guys have that special secret internal sauce where people throw themselves and you don't have to do anything except collect tuition.

[Yao Sing]

Sorry, sometimes I forget you guys have that special secret internal sauce where people throw themselves and you don't have to do anything except collect tuition.

Consider that line stolen. :p

[Robinhood]

Skill such as, "listening for when the opponent is off balance and then adding his force to the throw" is also used in wrestling as well. The difference is

- wrestler may like to "make" it happen, while
- Taiji guy may like to "wait" it to happen.

It is still just the level of the players, if your level is less than your opponent you will resort to force to try to make up for lack of level.

The better person or more skilled will use less effort or energy to accomplish same goal.

[RonBlair]

I don't think you can "make it happen" in that way without creating an opportunity for your opponent to disrupt your balance. Hence, the difference. The goal of Taiji is to be supple, not stiff, in every movement--and also balanced. Even the movements with a lot of force like kao are executed with suppleness and balance.

When I would push with my old Taiji teacher he could almost instantly find any spot in my body where I was "holding on" with tension. He'd then use that as a fulcrum to unbalance me. Didn't matter if he started by touching my hand, he quickly find that my calf was tight and use that to trip me up.

But, hey, if the force way works for you, then it works. If your opponent is thrown on their head it doesn't make much difference how they got there.

EO

I agree with Wenshu. You and your teacher are only pushing each other. How would your teacher fair in a wrestkkng tournament. Likely he would push the guy away and the guy would pull him and toss him. The tai chi stuff only works if two people are pushing. Can it work in wrestling? Look up Chen village push hands on YouTube.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't think you can "make it happen" ...

If you want to push, you will pull first. Of course when you pull, your opponent may just borrow your pulling and add his pushing. But you can also borrow his pushing too. The difference is you know that your pulling is "fake" but your opponent may not know that. If you pull in such "angle" that will be difficult for your opponent to borrow your force then you will have advantage over your opponent.

[Eric Olson]

I agree with Wenshu. You and your teacher are only pushing each other. How would your teacher fair in a wrestkkng tournament. Likely he would push the guy away and the guy would pull him and toss him. The tai chi stuff only works if two people are pushing. Can it work in wrestling? Look up Chen village push hands on YouTube.

Taiji is not just "pushing". Push hands is a bit of a misnomer. In push hands you have to know how to execute and counter pulls, pushes, locks + fist, elbow, shoulder and hip strikes. In this sense it is no different than wrestling or any other style of kung fu. The strategy and mechanics are though.

EO

[taai gihk yahn]

I would laugh to see you "push hands" with my old teacher. He'd have you crumpled up on the floor like a little baby in seconds.

EO

and who exactly is your "old teacher", just out of curiosity...

[Dragonzbane76]

http://www.completemartialarts.com/whoswho/ufc/images/dansevern.jpg

Dan severn, awesome wrestler.

you know he's had some ridiculous amount of fights to his name? I can't remember the number (something in the 70 amount I think) but I think he's still going and fighting some. I might be wrong on that, it was awhile ago I looked up about him.

and the mustacheoooo is epic.

[MightyB]

I could've sworn that this thread was longer. ;):rolleyes:

[SwaiingDragon]

Push hands is a drill

Shuai Jiao is an art- conditioning, fighting, self-defense, etc...

[Peaceful Orchid]

If we compare these 2 clips, we can see some

- similiar such as borrow force, yield, sticky, follow, lead your opponent into the emptiness, ...
- difference such as Chinese wrestling use more leg moves, and end with single leg balance.

Why can't we mix both into one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZouSsrTGNE

There's a reason why no one has ever been able to do what is happening in the first clip in an open grappling competition. All open grappling competitions look much more like the second clip than the first clip because the second clip is an example of what really happens.