Why people don't want to share their best stuff

[imperialtaichi]

The problem of sharing (over the Net) is the experience is only limited to words. You can't "try" over the Net. Plus, there are often close minded but very verbal "authorities" who refuse to step back and see the truth.

Therefore, when the idea is too radical, instead of open discussions the idea is often quashed and the person presenting the idea ridiculed.

Plus, there are people who plagiarises and don't give credit to the person who comes up with the idea. Seriously, who would like to have their ideas stolen just to benefit some thief?

For these reasons, I don't blame people for not wanting to share the best stuff over the Net.

I for one, prefers to settle by crossing hands. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, no colourful language shall revive it. No argument. Simple.

Cheers,
John

[Vajramusti]

Therefore, when the idea is too radical, instead of open discussions the idea is often quashed and the person presenting the idea ridiculed.

((Happens frequent;y enough. People behind keyboards specially anonumous ones do not
always take responsibility for their actions))joy

Plus, there are people who plagiarises and don't give credit to the person who comes up with the idea. Seriously, who would like to have their ideas stolen just to benefit some thief?

((Plagiarism not only by passes giving credit but attempts to take credit falsely.Has happened in this forum and some people have been warned also for ad hominem obscenities,))joy

For these reasons, I don't blame people for not wanting to share the best stuff over the Net.

((And many knowledgeable people do not chit chat in net forums))joy

I for one, prefers to settle by crossing hands. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, no colourful language shall revive it. No argument. Simple.

((True enough. Or discuss things in civil fashion. Or discuss in various gatherings))joy

Cheers,
John

Cheers from here too. Joy

[desertwingchun2]

the problem of sharing (over the net) is the experience is only limited to words. You can't "try" over the net. Plus, there are often close minded but very verbal "authorities" who refuse to step back and see the truth.

Therefore, when the idea is too radical, instead of open discussions the idea is often quashed and the person presenting the idea ridiculed.

Plus, there are people who plagiarises and don't give credit to the person who comes up with the idea. Seriously, who would like to have their ideas stolen just to benefit some thief?

For these reasons, i don't blame people for not wanting to share the best stuff over the net.

I for one, prefers to settle by crossing hands. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, no colourful language shall revive it. No argument. Simple.

Cheers,
john

x2 .......

[wtxs]

Plus, there are people who plagiarises and don't give credit to the person who comes up with the idea. Seriously, who would like to have their ideas stolen just to benefit some thief?

You can't be really suggesting that some on this forum actually be guilty of ... ;):p

[LoneTiger108]

From my own perspective, and after being side-lined, insulted, ignored and sometimes even threatened and bullied on this forum since I first signed up, I think a better question is:

Why should we share our best stuff?? :confused:

[YouKnowWho]

Why should we share our best stuff?? :confused:
If you want to run for president, you may need to visit every families, go on TV, newspaper, and let people to know who you are. When appear in front of the public eyes, you have to prove that you will be a good president by presenting your idea. The follow answer just won't work.

person A: When you become US president, how will you balance budget?
president candidate: That's a secret and I won't release it to the public.

If you have a book to publish or a DVD to sell in the near future, you may have to let people to know your name as much as possible. If nobody knows who you are, your book and DVD will not have any customers.

Besides businese reason, to help others is always a good thing to do. The day when you die, your knowledge will go with you. Whether you are willing to share or not won't make any difference. People may remember you as a person willing to share, or a person who keeps everything to yourself. The decision will be all yours.

there are 2 things that you don't want to share:

- Your best moves.
- How to counter it.

[Phil Redmond]

From my own perspective, and after being side-lined, insulted, ignored and sometimes even threatened and bullied on this forum since I first signed up, I think a better question is:

Why should we share our best stuff?? :confused:
In that regard you do have a point.

[YouKnowWho]

Why should we share our best stuff?? :confused:

If you are talking about Judo forum, Bullsh!tdo form, or MAP forum, I can understand your reason. This forum is not that bad IMO.

I did have the following conversation in Judo forum:

A: Can someone help me on ...?
B: You should ask your teacher.
C: Don't expect to get any useful information online.
D: You may try ...
B: What make you think that you are qualified to answer A's question?
C: That's the most ridiculous suggestion that I have ever heard.
D: :(

In that kind of environment, it's better to tuck your tail between your legs, run like hell, and never go back.

Sharing? Type even one word in those forums will be waste your valuable lifetime. Again, this forum is not that bad IMO.

[trubblman]

There are people who plagiarize and don't give credit to the person who comes up with the idea. Seriously, who would like to have their ideas stolen ?



Yes exactly

[Robinhood]

If you want to run for president, you may need to visit every families, go on TV, newspaper, and let people to know who you are. When appear in front of the public eyes, you have to prove that you will be a good president by presenting your idea. The follow answer just won't work.

person A: When you become US president, how will you balance budget?
president candidate: That's a secret and I won't release it to the public.

If you have a book to publish or a DVD to sell in the near future, you may have to let people to know your name as much as possible. If nobody knows who you are, your book and DVD will not have any customers.

Besides businese reason, to help others is always a good thing to do. The day when you die, your knowledge will go with you. Whether you are willing to share or not won't make any difference. People may remember you as a person willing to share, or a person who keeps everything to yourself. The decision will be all yours.

there are 2 things that you don't want to share:

- Your best moves.
- How to counter it.

Well if we were trying to sell something or promote ourself, that would be different story, but most people are not, so your reasoning does not apply to most.

[YouKnowWho]

Well if we were trying to sell something or promote ourself, that would be different story, but most people are not, so your reasoning does not apply to most.

How about just help others?

[Robinhood]

How about just help others?

You need to go back to original post for the reasons.

[Yoshiyahu]

I say...if someone doesn't want to share their best stuff. so be it...

I for one dont hide anything...something i learn from my sifu, sparring with a non-wing chun opponent, or self realization i share openly...

In my mind their are no best moves...No counters...It boils down who is the better fighter. I dont care if you know know the whole wing chun system or just the best parts...

If the person is stronger, faster, and more accurate than you...then you loose...

Where i come from the best moves when fighting are

-A gun (Preferably automatic)

-Atleast Twenty friends to help you fight

If you think your Wing Chun has some closed door secret techniques in the year 2012 kudos to you and your fairy tale land. We dont live in the times of swords and spears. We live in the time of the AK-47. If your in a real life or death situtation most of the time it wont be hand to hand combat with a druken bully trying to prove a point...It will be shot into the crowd at you where you cant see the assialant. Which your secret WC techniques that you should share with every one doesnt really matter!!!


First off let me state if someone feels their WC shouldnt be shared with every one thats their business. I totally disagree with the reasoning. But its their business to not share certain aspects on public forum, with friends or with family.

But my pet peeve is when someone says to me "you shouldnt be sharing that information with the public." My Question is how is what im sharing with you gonna stop my 12" Guage shotgun? Unless i take you to gun range you dont have no life or death kung fu...If you add a knife, machete, or metal baseball to your fight you may be actually able to take a life...but i doubt very seriously you will be able to defeat someone with a magial chi ball from your spirit.

So by all means keep your hidden techniques a secret...if i decide to discuss some thing i like about wing chun...dont give me any back lip about it...Because remember wing chun is fist style..Not a super deadly dimak style that kills your opponents in 10 seconds!

[YouKnowWho]

You need to go back to original post for the reasons.
That was exactly what I had said.


Besides businese reason, to help others is always a good thing to do.

[wingchunIan]

Personally the reason for sharing is to hear counter arguments and different perspectives and POVs that can provide a platform for introspection and self development (even if it is only through affirmation that the original POV was correct). Only an arrogant fool believes that they have all of the answers and is unwilling to learn from others. Without sharing there is no dialogue and no learning. Sharing "best stuff", I couldn't comment on. All of my Wing Chun is equally valuable and it is often the most humble of basic punches that become my "best stuff" when under pressure. Only my humble opinion, have a great new year.

[Yoshiyahu]

Great post interesting!!!



Personally the reason for sharing is to hear counter arguments and different perspectives and POVs that can provide a platform for introspection and self development (even if it is only through affirmation that the original POV was correct). Only an arrogant fool believes that they have all of the answers and is unwilling to learn from others. Without sharing there is no dialogue and no learning. Sharing "best stuff", I couldn't comment on. All of my Wing Chun is equally valuable and it is often the most humble of basic punches that become my "best stuff" when under pressure. Only my humble opinion, have a great new year.

[imperialtaichi]

If you are talking about Judo forum, Bullsh!tdo form, or MAP forum, I can understand your reason. This forum is not that bad IMO.

To be fair, this is one of the most civilized and open minded forum in cyberspace.

There was one clown in another forum, supposedly an "authority". He used to redicule everything I posted and made numerous personal attacks. When asked to show what he could do, his answer was "I'm a critic. I critique. I don't need to show anything."

Haha, clowns :rolleyes:

[Yoshiyahu]

some people just have fun talking ****!!!


To be fair, this is one of the most civilized and open minded forum in cyberspace.

There was one clown in another forum, supposedly an "authority". He used to redicule everything I posted and made numerous personal attacks. When asked to show what he could do, his answer was "I'm a critic. I critique. I don't need to show anything."

Haha, clowns :rolleyes:

[Phil Redmond]

To be fair, this is one of the most civilized and open minded forum in cyberspace. . . . . .
I agree. Though things get heated here sometimes I think the generally there are some good people here and I've met a few of them.

[stonecrusher69]

The problem of sharing (over the Net) is the experience is only limited to words. You can't "try" over the Net. Plus, there are often close minded but very verbal "authorities" who refuse to step back and see the truth.

Therefore, when the idea is too radical, instead of open discussions the idea is often quashed and the person presenting the idea ridiculed.

Plus, there are people who plagiarises and don't give credit to the person who comes up with the idea. Seriously, who would like to have their ideas stolen just to benefit some thief?

For these reasons, I don't blame people for not wanting to share the best stuff over the Net.

I for one, prefers to settle by crossing hands. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, no colourful language shall revive it. No argument. Simple.


Cheers,
John


You are correc..Also back in the day WC information was almost impossible to get. If you got it it was a long acd costly road.

[Yoshiyahu]

You are correc..Also back in the day WC information was almost impossible to get. If you got it it was a long acd costly road.

its a new day....thanks be yah

[jesper]

best stuff ?

This reminds me of a time I was asked to show the most advanced stuff.
I threw a straight punch, which he didnt understand..
his loss:)

[anerlich]

20-30 years ago you had the TWC/LT wars. The internet wasn't around then, though we were blessed with the Draheim/Mazza incident more recently. No shortage of claims about who had the best stuff and who did not back then.

A bit later we had the HFY flamage, in which IMNSHO Benny Meng rather than Garrett Gee was the major agent provocateur. Lots of claims were made but little evidence on video or via fights came to light. Lots of heat, little light.

In recent times it seems that the CSLWC guys (mainly Terence rather than Alan Orr) and Bayer guys are the main ones posting clips and making claims. I see no holding back of best stuff by either camp, rather sometimes inflated claims as to the extreme bada$$ery being shown on said clips. At least Alan has had demonstrable success in MMA, which is not to say that the Bayer stuff is bad because he hasn't or doesn't claim to.

Personally, I think this forum is fairly civilised compared to say the VTAA forum, but a lot worse than, say, the Underground forum on MMA.TV. If anyone takes the insults, threats, or intimidation (seriously? LOL) here to heart they need to find an institution because life in the real world will be too much for them.

Youtube is full of first class BJJ instruction. no one holds much back. That seems to be more of a TMA thing. If you look at, say, Cobrinha's instructionals, you think some of the techniques shown are ridiculously complicated and no one could ever pull them off for real. But then he has a clip of himself pulling the exact technique off in the finals of the Mundials or similar, and he has proven his point.

Holding stuff back is ultimately a futile exercise. Put it out there, invite people to counter it, make it harder to counter or develop counters to their counters.

Wing Chun is not neurosurgery or quantum mechanics. It does not require geniuses, though they might help. It would be good if it relied more on empirical investigation rather than the swallowing and regurgitation of dogma. Many fighting arts, BJJ included IMO, have complexity and subtleties way beyond those in WC (and even beyond some of the more arcane and grandiose claims made by some).

And the claims of secret knowledge are to a large degree what has led WC to be regarded as worthy of ridicule by many, inside and out of the art.

[CFT]

Andrew is absolutely right on this. Similar arguments about open vs. proprietary security standards. Open standards means that they are subject to free scrutiny and any bugs get fixed, closed standards almost the opposite. You can all draw the parallels.

All the "moves" in judo, bjj and boxing are "known". Doesn't make anyone more or less vunlerable. It is down to the own individual's training: strength, speed, stamina, technique, etc.

[Yoshiyahu]

Andrew is absolutely right on this. Similar arguments about open vs. proprietary security standards. Open standards means that they are subject to free scrutiny and any bugs get fixed, closed standards almost the opposite. You can all draw the parallels.

All the "moves" in judo, bjj and boxing are "known". Doesn't make anyone more or less vunlerable. It is down to the own individual's training: strength, speed, stamina, technique, etc.

i agree...the skill, strength and power you hold dictates the out come of your fight!

[jesper]

one of my old teachers once said:

The secret stuff is rubbish. If you dont train it regularly against resisting opponents its useless, and if you do its no secret

[wingchunIan]

Andrew is absolutely right on this. Similar arguments about open vs. proprietary security standards. Open standards means that they are subject to free scrutiny and any bugs get fixed, closed standards almost the opposite. You can all draw the parallels.

All the "moves" in judo, bjj and boxing are "known". Doesn't make anyone more or less vunlerable. It is down to the own individual's training: strength, speed, stamina, technique, etc.

Agreed Spencer but a big difference is that the arts quoted don't just talk about what they do on forums, they are all sport based and so actively compete with each other so their secret moves would only ever be the ones that they didn't actually use. Happy new year BTW

[YouKnowWho]

one of my old teachers once said:

The secret stuff is rubbish. If you dont train it regularly against resisting opponents its useless, and if you do its no secret

IMO, the "secret" does exist. If you are not familiar with certain scenerio, it will put you in disadvantage situation.

[Phil Redmond]

I still say you write d**n good for a jock Andrew . . :)
Or should I have written d**n well????

[LoneTiger108]

Agreed Spencer but a big difference is that the arts quoted don't just talk about what they do on forums, they are all sport based and so actively compete with each other so their secret moves would only ever be the ones that they didn't actually use. Happy new year BTW

As much as I agree with what Chee wrote, and Andrew, I did not write the text you quoted Ian, or if I did I kept it secret from myself lol!! :D

Happy New Year to you and yours and everyone else who is here for the long run... ;)

[Grumblegeezer]

...Many fighting arts, BJJ included IMO, have complexity and subtleties way beyond those in WC (and even beyond some of the more arcane and grandiose claims made by some)...

What you say about complexity is quite true. Unlike many arts, good WC has always exemplified simplicity. As for subtlety, I'd say that striving for refinement and subtlety is an endless pursuit in any art. Subtlety however, is not a matter of "secrets", but rather of skill, experience and insight.... ie "hard work". As for the best stuff, I agree with what Jesper said:


best stuff ?

This reminds me of a time I was asked to show the most advanced stuff.
I threw a straight punch, which he didnt understand..
his loss:)

[imperialtaichi]

What you say about complexity is quite true. Unlike many arts, good WC has always exemplified simplicity. As for subtlety, I'd say that striving for refinement and subtlety is an endless pursuit in any art. Subtlety however, is not a matter of "secrets", but rather of skill, experience and insight.... ie "hard work". As for the best stuff, I agree with what Jesper said:

True, there are no secrets but plenty of hard work. But if the teacher gives you the right "key" it makes your life so much easier and your progress faster.

[anerlich]

What you say about complexity is quite true. Unlike many arts, good WC has always exemplified simplicity. As for subtlety, I'd say that striving for refinement and subtlety is an endless pursuit in any art. Subtlety however, is not a matter of "secrets", but rather of skill, experience and insight.... ie "hard work". As for the best stuff, I agree with what Jesper said:

I agree, except for the "unlike many arts" part.

The height of competence IMO is being able to win using the basics and without tricks.

Roger Gracie exemplifies this in BJJ.

It is dangerous to assume that your chosen art is on its own superior to any other. Maybe you can make it that way - for you - but not without the hard work to which everyone alludes.

[anerlich]

IMO, the "secret" does exist. If you are not familiar with certain scenerio, it will put you in disadvantage situation.

Maybe the first couple of times, not after that. Unless you are killing all your opponents in unwitnessed deathmatches.

[Robinhood]

Hard work does not guarantee anything, proper training in right order will give best results. So you need to find someone that can guide you if you want to reach high level, otherwise you will waste a lot of time getting no ware fast.

[anerlich]

Mmmyeah ...

These days, competent instruction is not difficult to find in most cities, despite the protests made by rice bowl protectors and glib wannabee gurus.

It's a lot easier to find competent instruction than it is to follow it, and persevere with the training and sacrifices entailed to achieve success.

And at some stage, you've got to stop relying on instructors and take responsibility for your own development to reach your potential.

[anerlich]

I still say you write d**n good for a jock Andrew

Thanks Phil. More of a geek than a jock, though, really.

[anerlich]

Similar arguments about open vs. proprietary security standards. Open standards means that they are subject to free scrutiny and any bugs get fixed, closed standards almost the opposite. You can all draw the parallels.


Exactly right. The best encryption algorithms are those which are published, and all comers including the world's best cryptographers invited to try and crack them. Anything that withstands a few years of this without being cracked is an algorithm you can have confidence in.

The opposite, "security through obscurity", is regarded as the false refuge of clueless amateurs.

I expect most here who work out against resisting opponents here have been confronted with the guy who can get you with simple techniques. Even when you know what he's going to do and you can see it coming he can still get you with it. That's the sort of skill I want.

The unnamed instructor who teaches a few initiates who have pledged allegiance to him in a secret location isn't the guy you want. He won't have enough experience as a teacher because he doesn't teach enough.

I'm after the guy who has taught 25000 classes in locations all over the world whose results lots of people rave about. Evidence of repeatable success. And yes, I know such a guy, as do most Australian MAists who have been around for a few years. Though he ain't the only one.

[Yoshiyahu]

The Secret is after you learn your chosen martial art system....

Make it work in a fight!

Thats the secret...Making it functional to where you can actually apply the techniques on a live resisting opponent!

[YouKnowWho]

The Secret is after you learn your chosen martial art system....

Make it work in a fight!

Thats the secret...Making it functional to where you can actually apply the techniques on a live resisting opponent!

The secret is how to "enhance" your skill. In the striking art, if you can do Fajin and also can hit hard on heavy bag, that should be good enough. In the grappling art, each technique has a special equipment training that can help you to enhance your skill to the maximum. To me, that special training method is "secret".

For example, to put a Bowling ball in a 1 foot deep hole, and use your foot to scoop it out daily is a "secret" training method.

The following footwork training methods can also be considered as secret.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3MwAls9slE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGxptvJlubY

[Yoshiyahu]

lol funny well keep your secrets to your self than buddy! lol



The secret is how to "enhance" your skill. In the striking art, if you can do Fajin and also can hit hard on heavy bag, that should be good enough. In the grappling art, each technique has a special equipment training that can help you to enhance your skill to the maximum. To me, that special training method is "secret".

For example, to put a Bowling ball in a 1 foot deep hole, and use your foot to scoop it out daily is a "secret" training method.

The following footwork training methods can also be considered as secret.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3MwAls9slE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGxptvJlubY

[wingchunIan]

As much as I agree with what Chee wrote, and Andrew, I did not write the text you quoted Ian, or if I did I kept it secret from myself lol!! :D

Happy New Year to you and yours and everyone else who is here for the long run... ;)

Good trick that. Apologies to Chee and to yourself. That'll teach me to pay more attention. :o

[YouKnowWho]

lol funny well keep your secrets to your self than buddy! lol
If you can move like a ghost, nobody will be able to fight you.

If footwork is what you are interest to train, those 2 clips may be interest to you. Similiar footwork can also been seen in this clip at 1.06 - 1.13

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1bQ6kvMMAY

[anerlich]

The following footwork training methods can also be considered as secret.


Not if they are on Youtube.

I do agree with what you are saying to some degree. My lineage has some "secret" training methods. But they are not something that people could not work out for themselves if they looked and adapted training methods and principles from other sports or physical disciplines. It is having the insight and mental flexibility to think laterally that is important.

The question remains as to how to verify the veracity of how well they work without testing them against all comers or conducting proper experiments, neither of which can be done in secret.

[anerlich]

If you can move like a ghost, nobody will be able to fight you.

If footwork is what you are interest to train, those 2 clips may be interest to you. Similiar footwork can also been seen in this clip at 1.06 - 1.13

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1bQ6kvMMAY

That is pretty slick (more the first two).

In essence though, I don't see any fundamental difference between that sort of footwork training and what footballers and MMA fighters might do with agility ladders and the like.

If you think American football players are slow on their feet, they aren't. Watch "Strong - The Movie" and you will see the truth.

[YouKnowWho]

If you think American football players are slow on their feet, they aren't. Watch "Strong - The Movie" and you will see the truth.
This is why a football player will need a coach. It's not that easy for a football player to figure out everything all by himself. The footwork is much more complicate than just a punch to the head.

In Taiwan, SC guys also compete in Judo tournament. SC guys like to grab their opponent's cross lapel and run in circle. Most Judo guys are not familiar with that kind of strategy (because they don't train that way). It puts Judo guys in disadvanteg situation.

Can people figure out solution without teacher? It may be possible. But how long will that take?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvaOmZpyUrA

[anerlich]

In Taiwan, SC guys also compete in Judo tournament. SC guys like to grab their opponent's cross lapel and run in circle. Most Judo guys are not familiar with that kind of strategy (because they don't train that way). It puts Judo guys in disadvanteg situation.


OK but if the judo guys have half a brain they'll go home, analyze the video footage and work out startegies ot combat it.

It's like how pure BJJ used to destroy everyone in the UFC in the early days ... but soon enough people were developing strategies to counter it. No strategy stays invincible for long.

And yeah, I know judo guys who'd murder you if you tried that. Clear path to the back.

[anerlich]

Can people figure out solution without teacher? It may be possible. But how long will that take?


I don't think anyone said otherwise.

However, if the teacher isn't teaching the student to think and solve problems for himself, he is a poor teacher.

And if the student isn't thinking and problem solving for himself but expecting the teacher to spoonfeed him, he is a poor student.