The cultivation and development of qi and Jin

[Hendrik]

The cultivation or development of qi and jin for internal art or soft art has to follow the law of the natural.


So, it is a five layers of development.
The steps is as the following.


1. Develop physical platform layer
2. On top of physical layer Develop Awaness or mind layer
3. When layer 1 and 2 developed to a threshold level, breathing layer will surface.
4.when layer 1,2,3 develop to a threshold level, the qi layer will surface.
5. When layer 1,2,3, 4 develop to a threshold qi will support the Jin development.

There after every move is activating and handling all five layers.

The first five stanzas of yik kam as I present it repeatly clearly has stated the process.

集意会神平肩襠
双手前起分陰阳
左脚跘出有善惡
右跟曲勁紧收藏
气聚丹田督脉降


So, if one is practice slt as internal art neigong or qigong martial art. The above is the process from red boat ancestor. One cannot jump step or don't know the steps process because it is all about nature development.

[Yoshiyahu]

So let me paraphrase tell me if im right on or off...


Your saying layer one is learning the physical motions of sil lim tau...Once you can do the form phyiscally with out thinking than you have layer one


layer two is meditating on what you are doing. Thinking about each technique and what the technique is and is doing...this is layer two?


layer three is once you have the phyiscal motions down and the meditative state down then you add to it breathing. Breathing in sink with your motions and intentions. This is layer three.

When you have these three down. The Body, Mind and the Breath than you will begin to feel your chi. and learn to control your chi movement and direction correct?


As for layer five...what exactly do you mean...you lost me...do you mean once you can control your chi then you can utilize it with Jin to issue it. or do you mean once your aware of your chi and can control it you can develop your Jin for utiliziation?



The cultivation or development of qi and jin for internal art or soft art has to follow the law of the natural.


So, it is a five layers of development.
The steps is as the following.


1. Develop physical platform layer
2. On top of physical layer Develop Awaness or mind layer
3. When layer 1 and 2 developed to a threshold level, breathing layer will surface.
4.when layer 1,2,3 develop to a threshold level, the qi layer will surface.
5. When layer 1,2,3, 4 develop to a threshold qi will support the Jin development.

There after every move is activating and handling all five layers.

The first five stanzas of yik kam as I present it repeatly clearly has stated the process.

集意会神平肩襠
双手前起分陰阳
左脚跘出有善惡
右跟曲勁紧收藏
气聚丹田督脉降


So, if one is practice slt as internal art neigong or qigong martial art. The above is the process from red boat ancestor. One cannot jump step or don't know the steps process because it is all about nature development.

[Hendrik]

One needs to arrive at a certain quality in one's physical layer to be able to have basic physical layer handling. It s much more then learning, doing and mimic movement.


It is like playing violin, one needs to play until the music is surface naturally.


What you describe above doesn't get into the door yet as the Chinese old saying said. One needs to get into the door to get start.


One don't addin breathing etc. they surface as the music surface for a musician.

One doesn't control qi. Those who control it disturb it. Dao mimic nature. That is the practice of wu Wei. But, most doesn't know the door in.

[Yoshiyahu]

So its like typing on a keyboard...the basic level is learning the keys and consciously hitting the right key strokes...but when you can look away from the key board and let it flow naturally and instinctively than this is when you have the true layer...

when you can feel the music and allow it to play from your subconscious mind instead of using your will to play it...then you have it...


its natural



One needs to arrive at a certain quality in one's physical layer to be able to have basic physical layer handling. It s much more then learning, doing and mimic movement.


It is like playing violin, one needs to play until the music is surface naturally.


What you describe above doesn't get into the door yet as the Chinese old saying said. One needs to get into the door to get start.


One don't addin breathing etc. they surface as the music surface for a musician.

One doesn't control qi. Those who control it disturb it. Dao mimic nature. That is the practice of wu Wei. But, most doesn't know the door in.

[Hendrik]

In the past, one spend three months just to handle basic physical handling on how to stand properly for support other layer's development later.

Develop qi is real but most never get there.

[Hendrik]

So its like typing on a keyboard...the basic level is learning the keys and consciously hitting the right key strokes...but when you can look away from the key board and let it flow naturally and instinctively than this is when you have the true layer...

when you can feel the music and allow it to play from your subconscious mind instead of using your will to play it...then you have it...


its natural

Sure. When rules of play become free flow.

[Yoshiyahu]

In the past, one spend three months just to handle basic physical handling on how to stand properly for support other layer's development later.

Develop qi is real but most never get there.

thank you! very interesting...thanks for your definition?

[Hendrik]

thank you! very interesting...thanks for your definition?

I have seen it done. So I know what it is.

No sex, pure food....etc. WCK take long time when it comes to real deal.
Take a look a the opera actors physical training. Those are the WCK ancestors. WCK is based on thier opera physical conditioning and further.

[Yoshiyahu]

I have seen it done. So I know what it is.

very good...by all means please feel free to share more detail!

[Hendrik]

This is real


http://www.tidewatertaichi.com/FAQ.


As it says

-----------
Human Level
First Degree: Relax the tendons and ligaments from the shoulders to the tip of the middle finger.
Second Degree: Relax the tendons and ligaments from the hip joints to the bubbling well.
Third Degree: Relax the tendons and ligaments from the tail bone to the top of the head.

Earth Level
First Degree: Sink the qi to the dantien.
Second Degree: Use the mind to move the qi from the dantien through the arms and legs to the fingertips and bubbling well.
Third Degree: Use the mind to move the qi from the tailbone (weilu) to the top of the head (niwan).

((Hendrik's. Note: my view on the earth level is, one doesn't have to use the mind to move the qi. When qi is full it fill up and. Blockage remove, qi will circulate by itself naturally. It is like when the reservoir is full and the sue system is unblock, water flow by itself. Thus, at this level one needs to attain the natural flow instead of using mind to move qi . Qi will circulate by itself and one must not disturbed the qi flow. That is dao mimic the nature. ))


Heaven Level
First Degree: Listen to the energy and strength (ting jin) of another.
Second Degree: Understand the energy and strength (dong jin) of another.
Third Degree: “Omnipotence Level.” The mind (yi) relies on the spirit (jing shen) not the qi to mobilize the body. Rely on “spiritual power” and “divine speed” rather than qi to move the body and maintain the taiji point of balance and harmony with others.


-----------


In the reality, most tcma practioner never fully develop human level second degree. Majority never get to the second degree of earth level. Thus, no matter How one test one's Jin, one can never go past one's boundary limit of capability.



so, how to check if one arrive at the third degree of human level?
By using the drop bounce on the 5layers clip. To observe is it true the whole body joints etc is active.

And,
One can check if one arrive at the second degree of earth level with the tiger step Kung of the 5 layer clip. To observe is it true that the qi surface while practicing it.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1150288&postcount=20

[Hendrik]

Further more, take Chen man chin tai ji as a sample.

We know, Chen's engine is the 37 postures with the 3 different levels total of 9 degree training or cultivation or development.

From the above, we can see Chen design his art development with loosing the physical, charge up Dan tian, circulate qi in the 12 medirians, and then circulate qi in the ren du or the special medirians group.


Then, only then the training proceed into listen to Jin and knowing Jin and fajin states.

there is a reason why Chen design it this way instead of talking Jin at early level.

That is because Jin is a force vector, and in order to have a good handling alive agile muscle muscle tenden..etc group which could do the job. As in all tcma ima, one needs to fill the muscle with qi to prepare the physical. Otherwise, one can intend but the body say no.

So, after the physical is filled and circulate with qi, the first indication is the physical body feel lighter and lighter. As it says, as light as one extra feather doesnt landed.
At that state, one naturally will be able to listen to others motion or Jin with ease. Then, the development proceed into balancing and projection of Force vectors with the muscle groups get more and more alive and strong.

That is how these Jin and qi stuffs work and develop. The is no qi blast or mind over body, but a mind body evolution.


So, Chen using his 37 postures with the 3 levels to develop his taiji engine. That is very realistic and scientific.



As for WCK, there is an issue today's WCK in general face, and that is the clamping of the knees and the elbow in the center line practice for some. These practice are adapted due to application advantages. However, it blocks one to arrive at the human level 3 degree, and it blocks one from proceed into the earth level where qi circulate to boost muscle and tendon...ect and the agile lively jin support.

Thus, one can predict going the clamping knee or elbow path will not get one to high level of tcma ima. However, it is good for basic fighting. But against advance fighters that will break down. Due to the advantage WCK frame become a hinderance on the human body development.


Finally, think this way, this type of analysis happen in 1850 when Qing general send his advisor to observe the rebels martial art or weapons. One knows the boundary one knows how to develop it and one knows how to break it. One can predict the out come and expect what to get.

No no qi blast but a very scientific process behind tcma ima. And we need to saluted Gm Chen man Ching for his great design.

The same type of analysis can be done on emei, shaolin....etc. and only knowing this, one has the holistic view for the training . It is certainly not that keep training you will get there deal. It s a technology. It is engineering no mysterious at all.

[Yoshiyahu]

Very interesting indeed Hendrik..you are explaining things alot better...thank you!

[Yoshiyahu]

Are you saying 1850 wing chun didnt have the goat clamping knees? and the elbow on the center line as it goes out?



Further more, take Chen man chin tai ji as a sample.

We know, Chen's engine is the 37 postures with the 3 different levels total of 9 degree training or cultivation or development.

From the above, we can see Chen design his art development with loosing the physical, charge up Dan tian, circulate qi in the 12 medirians, and then circulate qi in the ren du or the special medirians group.


Then, only then the training proceed into listen to Jin and knowing Jin and fajin states.

there is a reason why Chen design it this way instead of talking Jin at early level.

That is because Jin is a force vector, and in order to have a good handling alive agile muscle muscle tenden..etc group which could do the job. As in all tcma ima, one needs to fill the muscle with qi to prepare the physical. Otherwise, one can intend but the body say no.

So, after the physical is filled and circulate with qi, the first indication is the physical body feel lighter and lighter. As it says, as light as one extra feather doesnt landed.
At that state, one naturally will be able to listen to others motion or Jin with ease. Then, the development proceed into balancing and projection of Force vectors with the muscle groups get more and more alive and strong.

That is how these Jin and qi stuffs work and develop. The is no qi blast or mind over body, but a mind body evolution.


So, Chen using his 37 postures with the 3 levels to develop his taiji engine. That is very realistic and scientific.



As for WCK, there is an issue today's WCK in general face, and that is the clamping of the knees and the elbow in the center line practice for some. These practice are adapted due to application advantages. However, it blocks one to arrive at the human level 3 degree, and it blocks one from proceed into the earth level where qi circulate to boost muscle and tendon...ect and the agile lively jin support.

Thus, one can predict going the clamping knee or elbow path will not get one to high level of tcma ima. However, it is good for basic fighting. But against advance fighters that will break down. Due to the advantage WCK frame become a hinderance on the human body development.


Finally, think this way, this type of analysis happen in 1850 when Qing general send his advisor to observe the rebels martial art or weapons. One knows the boundary one knows how to develop it and one knows how to break it. One can predict the out come and expect what to get.

No no qi blast but a very scientific process behind tcma ima. And we need to saluted Gm Chen man Ching for his great design.

The same type of analysis can be done on emei, shaolin....etc. and only knowing this, one has the holistic view for the training . It is certainly not that keep training you will get there deal. It s a technology. It is engineering no mysterious at all.

[Hendrik]

Are you saying 1850 wing chun didnt have the goat clamping knees? and the elbow on the center line as it goes out?

1850 training is starting with parallel stance, Those stuffs will naturally fall in there place when one get to the human level degree 3. Instead of forcing them sense less like many do today.

[Hendrik]

Very interesting indeed Hendrik..you are explaining things alot better...thank you!

This is the bottom line. One needs these to make the training alive.

[Yoshiyahu]

1850 training is starting with parallel stance, Those stuffs will naturally fall in there place when one get to the human level degree 3. Instead of forcing them sense less like many do today.

can you post any pictures?

[Hendrik]

can you post any pictures?

Just the common wuji posture. As in the begining of taiji.

[Yoshiyahu]

Just the common wuji posture. As in the begining of taiji.

So your saying early wing chun didnt have the goat clamping stance but it look more like this?


http://www.taiji37.com/img/wuji.jpg

[Hendrik]

Clamping naturally develop after the practice of the equal shoulder or wu ji type of stance.

[Yoshiyahu]

Clamping naturally develop after the practice of the equal shoulder or wu ji type of stance.


Do you have any older pictures?

[Hendrik]

Do you have any older pictures?

One doesn't need older picture.
One must know what it does, not what to mimic.
This is the most natural posture of human beings for the 5 layers. Slt starts with this.

[Yoshiyahu]

One doesn't need older picture.
One must know what it does, not what to mimic.
This is the most natural posture of human beings for the 5 layers. Slt starts with this.

This topic is to see some 1850 pictures you may have?

im very interested!