5 elbows of Ip Man Wing Chun?

[TopCrusader]

Ive heard it mentioned in passing that there are 'only' 5 elbow moves/attacks in Ip Man Wing Chun whereas in other WC lineages there are more. Is this correct?

Thanks

[Vajramusti]

Ive heard it mentioned in passing that there are 'only' 5 elbow moves/attacks in Ip Man Wing Chun whereas in other WC lineages there are more. Is this correct?

Thanks
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Incorrect. I do a 5 elbow drill and also a 8 elbow drill... but there are many many more elbows in my wing chun. And they come out of wing chun structure and motions-not imported from MT or TCC.

joy chaudhuri

[TopCrusader]

Thanks! Maybe it was the 5 elbow drill I was hearing about. I'll have to look into that.

[wingchunIan]

Never counted personally but how many ways do you think you can actually strikewith an elbow? Often many of the styles (wing chun or otherwise) with large numbers of techniques have the same number as everyone else but are rather more enthusiastic with their application of labels.

[Yoshiyahu]

I believe in Augustine Fong Curriculum he discusses the Five offensive elbows...Some lineages adhere to five but still have others...some have a drill for seven.


Joy i would love to see your eight elbow...i have seven!



Ive heard it mentioned in passing that there are 'only' 5 elbow moves/attacks in Ip Man Wing Chun whereas in other WC lineages there are more. Is this correct?

Thanks

[Phil Redmond]

My student, Sifu Rahsun Herkul:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgEgibUGVCs&feature=plcp&context=C3f1cde4UDOEgsToPDskKr0gH2S00UUEkaC5CCR4F8

[Yoshiyahu]

My student, Sifu Rahsun Herkul:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgEgibUGVCs&feature=plcp&context=C3f1cde4UDOEgsToPDskKr0gH2S00UUEkaC5CCR4F8

yes i have seen his video about a year ago...very interesting indeed...

[Lee Chiang Po]

Ive heard it mentioned in passing that there are 'only' 5 elbow moves/attacks in Ip Man Wing Chun whereas in other WC lineages there are more. Is this correct?

Thanks

Like most everyone, Ip only had 2 elbows. One on his left arm and one on his right arm. However, with each of these elbows he could strike you in 5 different ways, not directions exactly, but ways. With both arms I bet he could do 10 of them.

[Yoshiyahu]

Like most everyone, Ip only had 2 elbows. One on his left arm and one on his right arm. However, with each of these elbows he could strike you in 5 different ways, not directions exactly, but ways. With both arms I bet he could do 10 of them.

only two elbows...please elaborate?

[nasmedicine]

only two elbows...please elaborate?

IMHO...

There is no such thing as YM/WC (insert number here) elbows, per say. Right off the top of my head I can think of 9 strikes but then what about those strikes/directions/whatever that fall in between. If one really wants to train elbows one needs to first train shoulder and upper back flexibility with tendon strengthening exercises to give you the proper range of motion and strength in your elbow strikes.

[nasmedicine]

Ive heard it mentioned in passing that there are 'only' 5 elbow moves/attacks in Ip Man Wing Chun whereas in other WC lineages there are more. Is this correct?

Thanks

I am not associated nor do I practice LTVT, but here's a clip of LT showing 12 elbows in BJ. IMO, this goes to show that a number is just a number.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppo6tibUUf8&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

[Eric_H]

We're from a non-yip family line but we have a 5 elbow concept in Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Siu Nim Tao. As for elbow strikes themselves, I believe there's 8 in our Biu Gee, but I wouldn't know for sure as I've yet to learn it.

I believe there were also 8 in the Yip Man Wing Chun I learned, but I don't know if that was a change based on my first teacher learning HFY while teaching me YM. :confused:

Hope everyone had a good Holiday.

[Yoshiyahu]

I think there is One elbow, one punch, one kick!

But multiple ways to appy them..multiple vectors or directions one can utilize these three techniques...

I will say personally I practice Seven Elbow strikes. Although you can adapt those seven elbow techniques to be more. An also you can elbows defensively in a offensive way!

[Lee Chiang Po]

I think there is One elbow, one punch, one kick!

But multiple ways to appy them..multiple vectors or directions one can utilize these three techniques...

I will say personally I practice Seven Elbow strikes. Although you can adapt those seven elbow techniques to be more. An also you can elbows defensively in a offensive way!

I guess I will elaborate here. I was joking about the 2 elbows as the human body only has two of them for real. I guess you might say I follow a lineage handed down by a fellow by the name of Hung. Hung Fa. I was taught 5 manners in which to strike with the elbow. It is not a primary weapon, but a weapon of very close proximity.
First there is the parallel elbow strike where the elbow is held directly out from the body and brought forward, striking with the front of the elbow where the forarm joins. The second is another parellel strike that comes from in front and the elbow moves across to the side of the body with the back of the elbow striking, as in just the opposite of the first one. The third is a downward elbow stike to your front, with the elbow moving in a downward manner and striking with the front of the elbow where the forearm joins. And the fourth one is where you bring the elbow down using the point of it for striking. The fifth is a backward horizontal where it swings around and stikes with the back of the elbow. This same one can be used in an upward direction to the back, but it is the same as number five, only applied a little differently. This can be done on either side the same way.
The elbow can be devistatining if applied to a delicate spot or the face, but it is a very short range weapon and being so short it lacks the power that a punch might carry with it. When I was younger I could roll off an elbow and there would be absolutely no impact value at all. Body shots can't be rolled off, but they are fairly easy to absorb.
When I was young and actually training my Wing Chun I would do the elbows repeatedly in the order I gave you, applying Chi to each strike. I even had bags of sand for impact. You can practice every possible technique this way. And being that WC is a conceptual system, the elbows can be used in a lot of ways as long as they are used properly. For instance, the downward, fist up elbow can be used in a full 180 degrees, giving you a full 360 degree application capibility.

[Yoshiyahu]

thanks very informative i enjoyed your post...i see commonality in your wing chun and mines!

Specifically we only use elbows when are too close to punch or your arms are locked. When you make it so close to your opponent that you can punch with enough power elbows instantly come out the door and start wrecking havoc. When the opponent moves back to bridging range then you stick and punch and kick simultaneously!



I guess I will elaborate here. I was joking about the 2 elbows as the human body only has two of them for real. I guess you might say I follow a lineage handed down by a fellow by the name of Hung. Hung Fa. I was taught 5 manners in which to strike with the elbow. It is not a primary weapon, but a weapon of very close proximity.
First there is the parallel elbow strike where the elbow is held directly out from the body and brought forward, striking with the front of the elbow where the forarm joins. The second is another parellel strike that comes from in front and the elbow moves across to the side of the body with the back of the elbow striking, as in just the opposite of the first one. The third is a downward elbow stike to your front, with the elbow moving in a downward manner and striking with the front of the elbow where the forearm joins. And the fourth one is where you bring the elbow down using the point of it for striking. The fifth is a backward horizontal where it swings around and stikes with the back of the elbow. This same one can be used in an upward direction to the back, but it is the same as number five, only applied a little differently. This can be done on either side the same way.
The elbow can be devistatining if applied to a delicate spot or the face, but it is a very short range weapon and being so short it lacks the power that a punch might carry with it. When I was younger I could roll off an elbow and there would be absolutely no impact value at all. Body shots can't be rolled off, but they are fairly easy to absorb.
When I was young and actually training my Wing Chun I would do the elbows repeatedly in the order I gave you, applying Chi to each strike. I even had bags of sand for impact. You can practice every possible technique this way. And being that WC is a conceptual system, the elbows can be used in a lot of ways as long as they are used properly. For instance, the downward, fist up elbow can be used in a full 180 degrees, giving you a full 360 degree application capibility.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1150950]
The elbow can be devistatining if applied to a delicate spot or the face, but it is a very short range weapon and being so short it lacks the power that a punch might carry with it.
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A difference in povs:Depends on one's training. With good chum kiu and biu jee level practice and training-at close quarters-wing chun elbows can be more powerdul than punches.
joy chaudhuri

[jesper]

elbows like so many other weapons are very useful when used correctly.
unfortunately thats the problem for most

[Lee Chiang Po]

[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1150950]
The elbow can be devistatining if applied to a delicate spot or the face, but it is a very short range weapon and being so short it lacks the power that a punch might carry with it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A difference in povs:Depends on one's training. With good chum kiu and biu jee level practice and training-at close quarters-wing chun elbows can be more powerdul than punches.
joy chaudhuri

When I was a young man I could take an elbow full in the face and roll it off. And when I took a body shot I easily absorbed it. I suppose that if a large, strong person trained for this he could reach some pretty powerful capabilities. The elbow is only about a foot long on average I think. And it is almost always used in a swing from the side. A backward elbow can be pretty stiff, but most applications are lacking the ability to apply your structural power. The leverage is simply not there. One would have to be strong already and really practice throwing the elbow.
The elbow is still very useful I think. I have had times when I had both hands tied up and the elbow was perfect for the situation since both my opponents hands were also tied up. I had free access to his face. However, I have not been able to drop someone with an elbow, and have never been stunned by one.

[jesper]

Then you havent met anyone that can throw a good elbow strike.

People get knocked out by elbows all the time. but again its like any other weapon, you need to know how, when and where to use it.

If you dont think they are any good. try go to a good muay thai fighter and ask him to give you a swing. If your still standing then kudos to you :)

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1150981]

When I was a young man I could take an elbow full in the face and roll it off. And when I took a body shot I easily absorbed it. I suppose that if a large, strong person trained for this he could reach some pretty powerful capabilities. The elbow is only about a foot long on average I think. And it is almost always used in a swing from the side. A backward elbow can be pretty stiff, but most applications are lacking the ability to apply your structural power. The leverage is simply not there. One would have to be strong already and really practice throwing the elbow.
The elbow is still very useful I think. I have had times when I had both hands tied up and the elbow was perfect for the situation since both my opponents hands were also tied up. I had free access to his face. However, I have not been able to drop someone with an elbow, and have never been stunned by one.
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Good Ip Man wing chun has powerful elbows.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

When I was a young man I could take an elbow full in the face and roll it off. And when I took a body shot I easily absorbed it. I suppose that if a large, strong person trained for this he could reach some pretty powerful capabilities. The elbow is only about a foot long on average I think. And it is almost always used in a swing from the side. A backward elbow can be pretty stiff, but most applications are lacking the ability to apply your structural power. The leverage is simply not there. One would have to be strong already and really practice throwing the elbow.
The elbow is still very useful I think. I have had times when I had both hands tied up and the elbow was perfect for the situation since both my opponents hands were also tied up. I had free access to his face. However, I have not been able to drop someone with an elbow, and have never been stunned by one.

You're getting into the thinking behind the reasons VT doesnt throw an elbow like it does fists. Returns for execution % are lower than the fists ability to face and fire regardless of interceptions.
Attacking is our goal through seamless, thoughtless, high speed attacks.
Elbows are slower, easier to 'read', easy to trap and we have a form devoted to recovering them for the weakness they present to our goals....ergo we see it as an opportunistic event rather than a 'hope for the best'.
In a clinch or a wrist grab in a position without options to move and strike with fists it has obvious potential, but then so do head butts a lesser seen event for rules preventing it.
Clothed, throwing elbows also diminishes its force value, unlike a headbutt. Delivering a leaning strike breaks our force axis lines and makes us 'reach' for the head with a much slower power point....

[Yoshiyahu]

Any one who says an elbow can't hurt you really has never been hit with one.

I have been hit in the face with a elbow before. Its not a good feeling at all. If you get hit right your not going to be able to keep fighting. I gurantee you.

An elbow strike in right place can end the fight or cripple your opponent enough for you to knock him out with relentless blows.

Believe me if you doubt the power of elbow you obviously have not been hit by one!

(Elbow strikes are accompanied with the body for power. Elbows are only deployed once you are inside your opponents doors. Once you pass his second joint you can elbow him at will)

[Grumblegeezer]

...Clothed, throwing elbows also diminishes its force value...

Useful reminder. I often forget about the effect heavy clothing would have on my technique, probably due to having lived my whole life in a warm climate. It's Jan. 3rd and the local high temperature is predicted to be 78. I've been outside all morning and of course I'm wearing a T-shirt.

[k gledhill]

Useful reminder. I often forget about the effect heavy clothing would have on my technique, probably due to having lived my whole life in a warm climate. It's Jan. 3rd and the local high temperature is predicted to be 78. I've been outside all morning and of course I'm wearing a T-shirt.

27 & windy here! Wearing a jacket,suit, can alter a 'gym' elbow. This can work for us if a guy is trying to elbow you in restrictive clthing....been there!

[Yoshiyahu]

27 & windy here! Wearing a jacket,suit, can alter a 'gym' elbow. This can work for us if a guy is trying to elbow you in restrictive clthing....been there!

does any one spar in different types of weather, clothing, shoes, terrain and so forth?

Sparring at night outside is definitely a different feel than sparring in the day time. indoors?

[imperialtaichi]

Any one who says an elbow can't hurt you really has never been hit with one.

I have been hit in the face with a elbow before. Its not a good feeling at all. If you get hit right your not going to be able to keep fighting. I gurantee you.

An elbow strike in right place can end the fight or cripple your opponent enough for you to knock him out with relentless blows.

Believe me if you doubt the power of elbow you obviously have not been hit by one!

(Elbow strikes are accompanied with the body for power. Elbows are only deployed once you are inside your opponents doors. Once you pass his second joint you can elbow him at will)

Agree. I rather get hit by the fist three time than an elbow once (actually, I rather not get hit at all :p).

While we are in range to use the elbows, the problem is that we are also in range to receive them! Most people train to use the elbows, but not enough emphasis on learning on how to defend against elbows. The dynamics is different from dealing with punches, as the directions and telegraphing are different. Also punches can often be stopped, but elbows are generally harder to stop and often had to be redirected.

[Grumblegeezer]

Another thing to keep in mind about elbows. If you are close enough to apply them properly, you are in grappling range... and a lot of tough guys know how to grapple these days!

[imperialtaichi]

Another thing to keep in mind about elbows. If you are close enough to apply them properly, you are in grappling range... and a lot of tough guys know how to grapple these days!

Too true. If one is not effective within the collision range, best to stay out of the kitchen. And I have seen way too many fantasy techniques demonstrated by WC "experts" who had never dealt with a real takedown.

[k gledhill]

Another thing to keep in mind about elbows. If you are close enough to apply them properly, you are in grappling range... and a lot of tough guys know how to grapple these days!


Too true. If one is not effective within the collision range, best to stay out of the kitchen. And I have seen way too many fantasy techniques demonstrated by WC "experts" who had never dealt with a real takedown.

exactly...why 'we' use elbows to recover from/if being grabbed and recover back to fists, angling and mobility.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Then you havent met anyone that can throw a good elbow strike.

People get knocked out by elbows all the time. but again its like any other weapon, you need to know how, when and where to use it.

If you dont think they are any good. try go to a good muay thai fighter and ask him to give you a swing. If your still standing then kudos to you :)

Actually, I have been hit by a lot of elbows. That is how I know what I am talking about. Muay Thai matters not. I have seen a lot of that in the mid 60's in southeast Asia. I was not impressed at all, and in fact, myself and a couple of Korean dudes kicked a lot of Muay Thai butt. Get yourself a foot long baseball bat and knock one out of the park. Same problem with the elbow. You are using a swinging club that is only a foot long. If you were to cut off your lower arm that is all you would have left. Not much to fight with.

[anerlich]

It's Jan. 3rd and the local high temperature is predicted to be 78. I've been outside all morning and of course I'm wearing a T-shirt.

Yawn. About 90 degrees F here today or 31 in real measurement :p

IMO elbows do more cuts and other tissue and bone damage than a guaranteed KO.

[Yoshiyahu]

Really Chiang? Really thats all I got to say?

My Friend where shall i begin...Your so funny to me...Real fantasy. I believe you Not. Eiether you were to young for the elbow to do damage or the person who did an elbow to you was holding back like when I spar with someone. When we friendly spar I throw elbows. They make contact but I take the power away.

An elbow to your Nose will hurt you if your a normal human. Unless you developed Iron Face which is impossible...you are impervious to an elbow strike. All this talk about the energy of elbow being like a baseball bat is redonkulus.

Wow. Have you ever been hit by a baseball bat before? Do you think a swinging motion is weaker than a thrusting motion. If anything Swinging is harder but slower that linear attacks. But ne way to each their own.

When an elbow hits you correctly its the waist that generates power not merely the arm. The arm simply guides the elbow...The WC structure is the root of the power. Whole Body power is where the pain comes from!



Actually, I have been hit by a lot of elbows. That is how I know what I am talking about. Muay Thai matters not. I have seen a lot of that in the mid 60's in southeast Asia. I was not impressed at all, and in fact, myself and a couple of Korean dudes kicked a lot of Muay Thai butt. Get yourself a foot long baseball bat and knock one out of the park. Same problem with the elbow. You are using a swinging club that is only a foot long. If you were to cut off your lower arm that is all you would have left. Not much to fight with.


I agree i rather not get hit at all. But I rather win the fight quickly rather than be concerned about never getting hit. Surviving and winning at the same time is everything.

But you make interested analogy. Care to share any videos that deal with how to defend against an elbow...thanks for the idea for my next thread by the way...


Agree. I rather get hit by the fist three time than an elbow once (actually, I rather not get hit at all :p).

While we are in range to use the elbows, the problem is that we are also in range to receive them! Most people train to use the elbows, but not enough emphasis on learning on how to defend against elbows. The dynamics is different from dealing with punches, as the directions and telegraphing are different. Also punches can often be stopped, but elbows are generally harder to stop and often had to be redirected.

[Yoshiyahu]

This is so Not making your point!!! Actually it proves mines...ha ha lol


Actually, I have been hit by a lot of elbows. That is how I know what I am talking about.

^^^This is your brain on elbows ^^^

Public Service Announcement...Please Don't do elbows