Intervention

[RenDaHai]

Hey Team,

Looking back over my violent encounters I was sober enough to remember I realise had I been more aware and experienced many of them could have been avoided.

There are some however that could not.

Intervening in another persons situation. I.e someone is getting beat up, you don't know the situation but it is clearly one sided and you estimate you can help.

I know most of these encounters are situation specific, but what is a good general strategy?

Do you present yourself loudly and get between them? Do you stealthily approach the aggressor and grapple him? Do you shout from a distance? How much force is legal? Strike or control? How do you de-escalate someone else's situation?

(For arguments sake lets say our situation is one man is on the floor, another is kicking his head in, no more visible people and no more information about how the situation arose)

[David Jamieson]

You either have the courage, ways, and means of stopping the violence, or you don't.

It really is that simple.

There is no way to determine the variables and what outcome it will lead to.

[YouKnowWho]

You either have the courage, ways, and means of stopping the violence, or you don't.
Somethime it has nothing to do with courage. It may have to do with "If you don't do something, you may feel ashame for the rest of your life."

"Fight you may die, run you live, at least for a while."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLrrBs8JBQo

When a guy attacks a girl, your friend said, "You are a TCMA guy. Are you going to do something about it?" Either you will let your friend to laught at you on your face for the rest of your life, or you take action and have to deal with whatever may happen.

[Hebrew Hammer]

I actually deal with situations, assaultive situations, at work. Often times I don't know who is at fault or what led up to the situation. If you goal is to stop the violence, which mine is...I give a loud shout, something to distract the attacker, they maybe focused on the other person, I want them to know I'm coming. You give them something else to think about...maybe the other person gets a second or two reprieve and may try to get away. I also want the individual to know that there are going to be repercussions...meaning they will be dealing with me and it no longer becomes a one on one situation.

Secondly, I move at them with haste, I want to pressure them into making a decision...usually its to refocus their attention to me. Become another threat to them or potential adversary, I don't want to be that...but it allows me to separate the combatants. I've learned that at times, I can actually herd someone away from their victim by circling them, especially if they know you're moving directly behind them. I'm a bigger man, my size may or may not be enough to make the attacker reconsider, it will buy me some time to begin to engage them in conversation. To try to diffuse it. Be brief, they train us to use 8 words or less, someone worked up will only hear a few words...I try to use 2 or 3 words, What's going on? or Stop it! or Hey!!! If none of that works...which is possible, but rare, I move right in to engage.

[David Jamieson]

Somethime it has nothing to do with courage. It may have to do with "If you don't do something, you may feel ashame for the rest of your life."

"Fight you may lie, run you live, at least for a while."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLrrBs8JBQo

When a guy attacks a girl, your friend said, "You are a TCMA guy. Are you going to do something about it?" Either you will let your friend to laught at you on your face for the rest of your life, or you take action and have to deal with whatever may happen.

Well, if you don't want to feel shame, then do something. You might fail, but you tried. Your ego really should be the least of your worries when you consider it is the least of your possessions.

[Yao Sing]

You all seem to be thinking in terms of the guy getting beat up doesn't deserve it. Maybe he owes money, threatened family, attempted to rob, etc.

I would intervene if I thought serious injury to either one was imminent. Other than that a slug out fist fight, even if one-sided, wouldn't warrant intervention. It might just be a fight club but the other couple guys didn't show up that day.

Now a guy beating a girl, a kid or senior warrants intervention. Just consider you're opening yourself up to lawsuits or someone possibly retaliating with a gun or attacking your family or criminal charges if your the one arrested.

[YouKnowWho]

Well, if you don't want to feel shame, then do something. You might fail, but you tried. Your ego really should be the least of your worries when you consider it is the least of your possessions.
I will not call that "ego". If you can do something and change the outcome but you didn't. You may just regret for the rest of your life.

When I was young, my friend knocked on my window at the middle of the night. His young brother was beaten up pretty bad and he wanted revenge. I grabbed whatever that I could find (a sword, a staff, ...) and went with him and jointed with many of his other friends, without knowing who and how many guys that we were going to fight that night. I could say that I was tired and needed to go to bed. If I did that, I could lost that friend forever. Was that "ego"? It was pure friend help friend. When we were young, that was very important. When we get older and have family, we may lose that kind of young heart and become "selfish". :(

[SPJ]

When a guy attacks a girl, your friend said, "You are a TCMA guy. Are you going to do something about it?" Either you will let your friend to laught at you on your face for the rest of your life, or you take action and have to deal with whatever may happen.

in the old time, if you save a guy, he becomes your friend.

if you save a girl, she may become your wife.

ouch.

:D

[SPJ]

in the face of confrontation

you have to calculate everything

odds of winning

routes of safety exits or escape

if everything is in your favor

---

if everything is not in your favor

--

every body counts their odds or chances of winning, including your opponent or potential threats

why not you?

---

[David Jamieson]

I will not call that "ego". If you can do something and change the outcome but you didn't. You may just regret for the rest of your life.

When I was young, my friend knocked on my window at the middle of the night. His young brother was beaten up pretty bad and he wanted revenge. I grabbed whatever that I could find (a sword, a staff, ...) and went with him and jointed with many of his other friends, without knowing who and how many guys that we were going to fight that night. I could say that I was tired and needed to go to bed. If I did that, I could lost that friend forever. Was that "ego"? It was pure friend help friend. When we were young, that was very important. When we get older and have family, we may lose that kind of young heart and become "selfish". :(

Actually, yes, I would say there was plenty of ego at play in that scenario you gave.

1. Revenge was the motivator
2. Seeking to overpower another without knowing the context except that a friend is telling you.
3. If anything, any man should throw himself more into the service of others as he ages.

[RenDaHai]

@Hammer,

Thanks, That seems like a good strategy. Certainly if I was large and imposing then intimidation is a good starting point. Also if you have some kind of authority i.e your a bouncer, security guard etc it is helpful psychologically on both sides.

I like the idea of moving behind, force them to turn around with a shout and get a chance at engaging them in conversation.

If diplomacy fails however you have thrown away your surprise advantage...

I would go for this approach if I had some kind of authority or if i was large, but given as I am average height and build I'm not sure it would be as effective, I would still need a strong back up plan.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Actually Ren,

I'm not in position of authority, I just project that. I'm actually a lowly clerk. Sometimes its what you project...even yelling for help (when there is no one around) can cause doubt in the attackers mind. Getting surprise could get you killed, or even worse you are attacking the victim who may have turned the tables on his/her attacker. What is your goal, to stop the violence or play avenging angel?

You don't have to be big, and at times being big is a hinderance...I've had others go after me cuz of my size. Sometimes fear brings out aggression in others. If you intervene, fear of reprisal cannot be foremost in your mind...they will sense that fear. Anyone can take a cheap shot...

[RenDaHai]

Ok Hammer I see,

I get that, I'm not particularly advocating any strategy, just playing with the ideas (talking them out helps my thought process).

What you suggested is a reasonable strategy. Morally, legally and strategically.



Lets change the example situation to a man beating a clearly weaker opponent (child, woman or pensioner)

[Hebrew Hammer]

Ok Hammer I see,

I get that, I'm not particularly advocating any strategy, just playing with the ideas (talking them out helps my thought process).

What you suggested is a reasonable strategy. Morally, legally and strategically.



Lets change the example situation to a man beating a clearly weaker opponent (child, woman or pensioner)

Has he offended me, my family, or the Wudang Temple?

[wenshu]

In America that is a good way to get shot, end up in jail, or both.

Especially with a domestic situation playing out in the street. While all concerned with how dashing you look, you fail to take the into account that the woman you think you're saving is going to stay loyal to the guy beating her with closed fists in public.

Cops show up and she says that you assaulted them.

[RenDaHai]

@Hammer, Hehe, he just p*ssed on a statue of Zhangsanfeng!

@Wenshu, Be that as it may, lets assume you have intervened.... What is the strategy?

[Lucas]

Actually, yes, I would say there was plenty of ego at play in that scenario you gave.

1. Revenge was the motivator
2. Seeking to overpower another without knowing the context except that a friend is telling you.
3. If anything, any man should throw himself more into the service of others as he ages.

to be fair, revenge was his friends motivator. His motivation was the request for help by a good friend. I have been there. You dont necessarily want to help, but you feel obligation to help a friend in need, so you do.


You might see a situation you can help in, but if you turn around and walk away, that may haunt your conscience afterward.

[rett]

Lets change the example situation to a man beating a clearly weaker opponent (child, woman or pensioner)

One approach might be to just engage the attacker's attention to allow the person being attacked to get away if she wants. Get his attention and try to get him to turn from the victim towards you and maybe approach you. Just give the victim some time.

I've been in situations like that twice where women were being physically assaulted by men in public places and both times I talked to the attacker long enough for the women to disappear from the scene, then I left.

One time I was on a balcony which is pretty safe. I used a firm voice and commanded the attacker to take his hands off her. He started arguing with me instead and she got out of where he had cornered her.

The other time a guy was blocking two women into a little alcove with a bicycle. I got the attacker to notice me behind him and he challenged me "what the feck are you looking at" (in Swedish) :) I kept agreeing with everything the attacker said. He was telling me to get the feck out of there and threatening me. I said okay, okay, I'm just passing by, but I didn't move away, or only just slow enough to keep him from charging me. (he was really agitated). No guarantees of safety but I had a sense for when he was right at the tipping point and every time he was about to rush me and throw the bicycle at me :) I just said okay okay and backed off a little more and he followed me a little more.

But that point if he had attacked I could have just run because the two women were gone.

[Jimbo]

In America that is a good way to get shot, end up in jail, or both.

Especially with a domestic situation playing out in the street. While all concerned with how dashing you look, you fail to take the into account that the woman you think you're saving is going to stay loyal to the guy beating her with closed fists in public.

Cops show up and she says that you assaulted them.

+1.

I've seen situations where a woman being beaten up turned on her rescuer. When I was young, a friend of mine saw a guy slapping his wife(?)/girlfriend(?) around in a park with lots of people standing there doing nothing. He told the guy to stop, and when the guy came at him, he dropped the guy. When he turned around to see if the girl was alright, she punched him...hard...and said to mind his own f'n business, plus a lot of other expletives. He had a black eye for some time after that.

Not saying that nothing should be done, but that things are not always as black and white as they might appear.

[wenshu]

+1.

I've seen situations where a woman being beaten up turned on her rescuer. When I was young, a friend of mine saw a guy slapping his wife(?)/girlfriend(?) around in a park with lots of people standing there doing nothing. He told the guy to stop, and when the guy came at him, he dropped the guy. When he turned around to see if the girl was alright, she punched him...hard...and said to mind his own f'n business, plus a lot of other expletives. He had a black eye for some time after that.

Not saying that nothing should be done, but that things are not always as black and white as they might appear.

Long time ago my girlfriend at the time called the cops on some neighbors who were involved in a violent domestic dispute. We actually had seen the guy inflict violence on his wife/girlfriend before.

The cops showed up at our apartment demanding to be let in looking for signs of violence. Luckily I wasn't home at the time; took a while for her to convince them that there was nobody else there and that she was calling about people in the next building over. In all likely hood I would have spent the night in lockup with a fresh domestic charge on my record had I been home at the time.

To answer RDH's question, what I am trying to say is that my strategy is "don't".

For the sake of hypotheticals, the diversion tactics people have been offering are best. Try and call attention to the ruckus. Maybe shout dramatically in an attempt to startle the attacker and take their attention away from the victim.

[Yao Sing]

My personal preference, in the case of weaker beat up by stronger, is to ask if they need help. There's your distraction, you're covered if they say no, you didn't threaten or assualt anyone. If they say no and you still think they need help then keep an eye on the situation.

If I saw a possibly fatal attack, unarmed against a knife or a verbal threat to kill along with the physical attack, then I would intervene regardless of legal repercussion or physical harm.

Basically stay out of it unless absolutely neccessary. Then anything goes and you SHOULD be justified.

And yes I've taken beatings for othes before, and gone down dark roads alone in response to a scream, etc.

[SPJ]

In America that is a good way to get shot, end up in jail, or both.

Especially with a domestic situation playing out in the street. While all concerned with how dashing you look, you fail to take the into account that the woman you think you're saving is going to stay loyal to the guy beating her with closed fists in public.

Cops show up and she says that you assaulted them.

ouch.

:(

[AJM]

You either have the courage, ways, and means of stopping the violence, or you don't.

It really is that simple.

There is no way to determine the variables and what outcome it will lead to.

Absolutely. The outcome of any fight is predetermined by you. You choose to win or not before you fight.