TMA in modern times

[Yao Sing]

I know this has been done to death in other threads and it has just been touched on in the multiple styles thread. Plus I was just now watching "Best Defense" Concealed Carry Gone Wrong.

Close Quarter empty-hand skills are a part self defense even with a sidearm on hand. So are MA skills out of date in a gun culture like the US?

Obviously not, but does MMA type training fit the bill?

I really don't think so. For the guys that carry have you looked at your CMA with an eye towards covering yourself until you can draw your firearm safely and fire if needed?

[Dragonzbane76]

I don't think it fits the bill in some of that area, but a lot of it translates over. The grappling conforms very nicely to some of it, (unless fighting multi. people, always have to throw that in there for the idiots that preach about grappling not working) But time and place dictate those issues. But if its a one on one confrontation and you are able to get into range for takedown or clinch then a lot of the training that teaches positioning comes into light and shines.

anytime guns are involved is a very tricky line. Someone pulls a gun on you from a distance of say 10ft. you are pretty much screwed and at the whim of attacker no matter what styles you conform to.

[Yao Sing]

The gun at a distance is what usually comes to mind to most folks. I'm looking from the gun owner pov, not someone assaulting with a gun.

What I mean is close quarters work. The program demonstrated attack situations that required hand skills to set up a safe gun draw. It highlighted bad practices that could cause attacker to get your gun. Keep in mind at some point you need to go one-handed so the other hand can safely draw the gun.

I've seen moves in different KF styles that seemed to fit the situation so I wanted to hear opinion from others.

[Yao Sing]

Unfortunately just a short piece of the clip here (http://www.downrange.tv/blog/the-best-defense-concealed-carry-gone-wrong/12719/). It's just that a lot of people think TMA is obsolete because of guns but here is a good example where just having a gun isn't enough.

[David Jamieson]

If you want complete tactical training you will not find it in one place. Not even in teh military.

You have to go through all sorts of different specializations even there and many have naught to do with the next or the last.

Nowadays, if you would like to have advanced rbsd training and tactical training you are going to have to step away from sport and performance.

the mentality required is massive and that's where you will get it or not.

[ginosifu]

I know this has been done to death in other threads and it has just been touched on in the multiple styles thread. Plus I was just now watching "Best Defense" Concealed Carry Gone Wrong.

Close Quarter empty-hand skills are a part self defense even with a sidearm on hand. So are MA skills out of date in a gun culture like the US?

Obviously not, but does MMA type training fit the bill?

I really don't think so. For the guys that carry have you looked at your CMA with an eye towards covering yourself until you can draw your firearm safely and fire if needed?

I have worked with police here and there are several factors in being able to use your gun.

#1 Your drawing speed and skill. How fast can you draw it out of where you have it holstered.

#2 The distance away your opponent is. I forgot the actuall distance, but if someone is closer than 10' he can charge you faster than you can draw out your weapon.

#3 Grappling skills. Chinese grappling called Chin Na / Kum Na / 擒 拿 is the best defense for hand to hand with any weapon (gun, knife etc etc). To control your opponent so he can not access your gun and to be able draw it.

ginosifu

[Jimbo]

I think there's the '21-foot rule', or something to that effect, where if, for example, a determined knife-wielding attacker is within 21 feet, he can close the distance and stab you before you can draw your gun (if it isn't out and ready). I believe even if it's already in shooting position, they're taught to move off the line of attack as they fire.

[TenTigers]

Frank Cucci had some really nice techniques combining his JKD with being armed.
From what I was taught, the weaver stance with one foot back, allows one to have his weapon back with the lead hand to guard as he brings his weapon into position, as opposed to the isocolese (sp?) which has both hands out in front.
Better for weapon retention as well as quick target aquisition.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Combat has been upgraded many times since men first started fighting amongst themselves. The club, the blade, then the gun. The firearm is difficult to defend against if the person holding it is savvy. Most people will not be. You see people holding a gun at arms length. That is dangerous. If you want to keep hold of it and be able to use it in a close in situation, you keep it close to the body where you can protect it. If someone grabs your arm it renders the gun usless. In the military they teach several methods of defending against a firearm that is most likely to be confronted, and several ways to defend that weapon from being taken from you. Not a whole system, just a few techniques that prove to work. The fact is, you are in grave danger if someone draws a gun on you. However, rather than being shot, you might possibly be able to defend yourself against it if you have the skills and techniques to do so. If you get shot, you are about to get shot anyway. If you manage to disarm the guy you have successfully defended your life. So go ahead and learn how to react to a gun attack and hope it never goes from push to shove.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think there's the '21-foot rule', or something to that effect, where if, for example, a determined knife-wielding attacker is within 21 feet, he can close the distance and stab you before you can draw your gun (if it isn't out and ready). I believe even if it's already in shooting position, they're taught to move off the line of attack as they fire.

Correct, though I am not sure about the exact distance.
The Dog Brothers in their excellent video series "Die Less Often", show graphic video evidence of such.

[BakShaolinEC]

kung fu can provide you with a good foundation to start from. a lot of people think kung fu should look like ti does in the movies or how they do their forms and drills. and it doesn't. once people get that out of their heads they will be better off.

[Grumblegeezer]

The OP was about adapting empty-hands training to help you draw and effectively use your own gun at close quarters, not how to defend against an armed opponent! Reading comprehension issues, guys?

Anyway, where I live, anybody, at least any adult non-felon, can carry openly or concealed. So many people do walk around armed. At my Escrima class, the instructor and a couple of students carry everywhere. They even train with their knives and guns under their sweats. Kinda over the top, if you ask me, but I like the class, so what the heck.

Now back to the OP. If you are carrying a firearm, the most important thing is to train techniques that will let you get a bit of distance so you have a chance to deploy safely. Otherwise, I'd say learn knife techniques. My instructor can get his knife out and use it lethally from any range including clinching and grappling. At close range a knife is just as good as a gun. Some say better.

[Yao Sing]

It was a spur of the moment thread based off a show I just watched discussing the issue. I have a concealed carry permit and I realized I hadn't addressed the CQB aspect of drawing. Maybe I felt me Kung Fu/Karate training would carry me until I could draw safely but I hadn't actually practiced it.

Seemed like a good topic since by now there are probably a lot of MAists that carry. 20 years ago I was training at a small Kung Fu school in El Paso, TX and one of the guys was CIA and had to have his gun at least in the room within easy reach at all times. I'm surprised he didn't keep it on him while training but he was new to the job.

[Jimbo]

The OP was about adapting empty-hands training to help you draw and effectively use your own gun at close quarters, not how to defend against an armed opponent! Reading comprehension issues, guys?

Anyway, where I live, anybody, at least any adult non-felon, can carry openly or concealed. So many people do walk around armed. At my Escrima class, the instructor and a couple of students carry everywhere. They even train with their knives and guns under their sweats. Kinda over the top, if you ask me, but I like the class, so what the heck.

Now back to the OP. If you are carrying a firearm, the most important thing is to train techniques that will let you get a bit of distance so you have a chance to deploy safely. Otherwise, I'd say learn knife techniques. My instructor can get his knife out and use it lethally from any range including clinching and grappling. At close range a knife is just as good as a gun. Some say better.

+1 regarding knives.

There are some LEOs who carry/train with a knife carried on their non-dominant side to aid in close-quarter weapon retention in case the felon goes for their gun. Many carry the common clip-carry one-hand folders, but there are medium-to-small-sized fixed-blade knives made esp. for that purpose.

[Lucas]

imo its all about fixed blades if you're being realistic. why bother with having to worry opening a folder when you can draw and be ready. you draw a folder just as you would a fixed blade, yet have an additional step to have it live.

[Yao Sing]

I carry a Spyderco folder all the time but it's used as a screwdriver/all purpose tool more than anything. :)

If I were geared up for possible trouble I have a few straight knives. I do that for hiking/camping mostly since I don't frequent bad neihborhoods much these days. :p

Other than where you're pulling from a gun and knife are probably about the same (if you can pull one safely you can pull the other just as easy).

Suggestions on CMA empty hand styles to augment weapons carry? Short hand styles (Wing Chun, Bak Mei, etc) or Eagle Claw, CLF etc.?

[KungFuBiker]

In my not terribly humble opinion; regardless of of whether we are talking hand to hand, bladed, or firearms it comes down to attitude, experience and training. Someone who’s only firearms qual is a CCP vs one someone who is (for example) unarmed but has been trained and has had actual combat experience the CCP is going to end up with his pistol stuffed into a private orifice.

I don’t think it really matters even if you’re at a “Black Belt” level. If you’ve never been in an actual fight and you’re facing someone with scars on their knuckles and a nose that’s been broke half a dozen times. You’re likely to have your ass handed to you.

[sanjuro_ronin]

imo its all about fixed blades if you're being realistic. why bother with having to worry opening a folder when you can draw and be ready. you draw a folder just as you would a fixed blade, yet have an additional step to have it live.

This is where the 'interface" between armed and unarmed goes.
You use your empty hand fighting to get into position to draw the blade ( or gun).
Its the difference between "knife fighting" and "fighting with a knife".
Symantics yes, but it CAN be something more.

[Yao Sing]

In my not terribly humble opinion; regardless of of whether we are talking hand to hand, bladed, or firearms it comes down to attitude, experience and training. Someone who’s only firearms qual is a CCP vs one someone who is (for example) unarmed but has been trained and has had actual combat experience the CCP is going to end up with his pistol stuffed into a private orifice.

I don’t think it really matters even if you’re at a “Black Belt” level. If you’ve never been in an actual fight and you’re facing someone with scars on their knuckles and a nose that’s been broke half a dozen times. You’re likely to have your ass handed to you.

Wow, way to inspire the troops there. Fight back much?:)

Let me guess, your MMA right? Don't bother if you've never done it before for real, So how do you get that first experience?

Seriously, where does the ASSumption come from that the guy carrying the gun or knife has never been in an actual fight? This comes up so often in these forums and usually spoken by a MMA guy that thinks the only fights that ever happen are at sanctioned sporting events. :rolleyes:

The guy with experience ALWAYS WINS right?

[KungFuBiker]

Wow, way to inspire the troops there. Fight back much?:)

Let me guess, your MMA right? Don't bother if you've never done it before for real, So how do you get that first experience?

Seriously, where does the ASSumption come from that the guy carrying the gun or knife has never been in an actual fight? This comes up so often in these forums and usually spoken by a MMA guy that thinks the only fights that ever happen are at sanctioned sporting events. :rolleyes:

The guy with experience ALWAYS WINS right?

Wow did I step on your toes or what? Don’t be so sensitive.:)
I am not MMA. Seriously what MMA guy would call himself “KungFuBiker. I am a student of the Traditional Chinese Martial Arts.

The point I guess I was trying (poorly I suppose) to make is that having a CCP or studying martial arts does not automatically make one into some kind of bad ass. A good combination of training and experience are required. Someone with experience, who’s not afraid to hit or be hit, is going to have the advantage over one who has done nothing but train. And yes the reverse also may hold true, someone with extensive training could quite probably win out over a street brawler who has had no training at all.

As I said previously A COMBINATION OF TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE are what will win the fight, and I believe this would hold true whether armed or unarmed.

[Lucas]

A COMBINATION OF TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE are what will win the fight, and I believe this would hold true whether armed or unarmed.

i think we can all agree on this. i would add that heart/bravery can be a deciding element to factor in there.

[Yao Sing]

I guess you haven't been around here long enough to read some of the sillyness that passes for knowledge/experience. Most of it coming from the TMA haters (read MMA nutriders). And yeah, it bugs me.

Ideas like 'You can't do something unless you've done it for real', are crap. Am I supposed to practice shooting by shooting at real people? Don't bother wasting time at the gun range just go down to the hood and get experience by robbing the corner drug dealer.

Seriously, it sounded to me like why bother trying to defend yourself unless you've actually been in armed combat. Not very incouraging.

Sorry, but I got nothing constructive from your posts. We all know the better trained/conditioned/experienced/bigger/stronger fighter has the edge in a fight. This has been done to death. I'd be more concerned with how to deal with such attackers/opponents.

Something constructive to share would be welcome. Saying a non-fighter would get his a$$ handed to him in the street by an experienced fighter is an insult to the intelligence of everyone here.

So now, what kind of bike you ride? Can't really make it out in your avatar. Mine is a Suzuki Intruder VS1400, Jardine forward controls, Mustang seat, Vance & Hines exhaust.

[KungFuBiker]

It sounds to me like you think I should not bother posting anything unless I have reason to believe that you would find them worthwhile. (How in the hell would I know what you might find worthy?)
I couldn’t care less if you find my posts un-informative. I am after all just putting forth my opinion and quite frankly my opinion is worth, same as yours, exactly what it costs.

The bike was assembled by Custom MotorCycles of California (CMC). It has an S&S 88 cubic inch engine (1340 CC) mated to an Andrews Gears High Tranny.

[hskwarrior]

Mind,body, and spirit.....do you have what it takes to end a fight? that is the only truth!!!

[AJM]

First real response.

[Lucas]

recently there were several 14 year old little girls who mercilessly beat this other 14 year old little girl at a local train stop. this is some pretty good evidence that people generally have what it takes to take someone out. even little girls.

when it comes right down to it, and you are a human being in the middle of a violent episode, most of us have what it takes to finish someone, simply by being a human being.

i dont believe we are as far removed from the primitive as we would like to tell ourselves.

[Yao Sing]

Nice bike but I'm grouchy today. I just don't see a defeatist attitude as appropriote for a fight mentality. Gee why fight back if the guy is better than me.

I've had a couple of old school choppers. Coincidentially they were the same year and both raked/extended springers. I rode the 1972 Honda CB750 chopper from late 1970's to the late 80's. The other was a 1972 Ironhead Sportster a few years ago. I need to get back into a newer custom bike.

[Lebaufist]

Suggestions on CMA empty hand styles to augment weapons carry? Short hand styles (Wing Chun, Bak Mei, etc) or Eagle Claw, CLF etc.?Shaolin monkey sabre with a garden machete.

[Lebaufist]

when it comes right down to it, and you are a human being in the middle of a violent episode, most of us have what it takes to finish someone, simply by being a human being.


Truth..........

[KungFuBiker]

Nice bike but I'm grouchy today. I just don't see a defeatist attitude as appropriote for a fight mentality. Gee why fight back if the guy is better than me.

Where; anywhere, in my posts do you see a "defeatist attitude"? All I was saying (clearly I thought) is that training absent experience or experience absent training is not as good as a well rounded combination of both.
And yes full contact sparing does count as experience. Because you have traded punches and kicks with an actual adversary...Enough. I will belabor the point no more.

[hskwarrior]

when it comes right down to it, and you are a human being in the middle of a violent episode, most of us have what it takes to finish someone, simply by being a human being.

i dont believe we are as far removed from the primitive as we would like to tell ourselves.

HALF TRUTH. HUMAN BEINGS are not natural fighters from the get go. there is the fight or flight syndrome. you won't be handling any violent situation if you run away from it.

[David Jamieson]

Here's a quick look at the latest form I've developed.
It's pretty effective:

http://i.imgur.com/Q0HCU.gif

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here's a quick look at the latest form I've developed.
It's pretty effective:

http://i.imgur.com/Q0HCU.gif

When did you learn wing chun?

[David Jamieson]

When did you learn wing chun?

that's not wang bung, it's "AR-15-C4 Fu"

Note the lack of bong saos and squeeling noises.

[hskwarrior]

Thats not you....he wasn't wearing a bat suit........

[David Jamieson]

Dude! I have it on underneath.
Couldn't wear the cape that day so I didn't have my shrapnel protection, hence the kevlar fat suit. What can a poor billionaire crime fighter do?

[Ray Pina]

MMA is perfect because its flexible.

I buy a 9mm and shotty.... I start training with a former FBI agent and former marine who splits time with Border Patrol/Homeland Security.

I add their training to the karate, to the Kung Fu, to the boxing, to the BJJ and wrestling.

I don't have to become a blood relative and pay huge envelopes. I express an interest, a desire to learn and a willingness to pay a fair price.

In return, they train me.

It's simple. Go find the best available/that you can afford in the discipline you want. No different than learning to play the guitar.

[Snipsky]

MMA is perfect because its flexible.

I buy a 9mm and shotty.... I start training with a former FBI agent and former marine who splits time with Border Patrol/Homeland Security.

I add their training to the karate, to the Kung Fu, to the boxing, to the BJJ and wrestling.

I don't have to become a blood relative and pay huge envelopes. I express an interest, a desire to learn and a willingness to pay a fair price.

In return, they train me.

It's simple. Go find the best available/that you can afford in the discipline you want. No different than learning to play the guitar.

dude, this is a kung fu forum and YOU are so effing boring. :rolleyes:

[Drake]

Like any sport out there, you can't discount genetics. Some people are just born with a better aptitude for it, and also built more efficiently for fighting.

Did no one here ever see 300?

[David Jamieson]

Did no one here ever see 300?

dude, that's just violent gay porn.

[Drake]

dude, that's just violent gay porn.

Hey, I can admire a man's dedication to fitness without being gay.

[Lucas]

Hey, I can admire a man's dedication to fitness without being gay.

no you cant. :p

[Drake]

no you cant. :p

Are you telling me that telling another man that his thighs are well-toned is gay?

[Lucas]

Are you telling me that telling another man that his thighs are well-toned is gay?

No thats totally fine.

[David Jamieson]

Hey, I can admire a man's dedication to fitness without being gay.

yeah whatever. That's the same as saying that you wanna be "just friends" with the hot girl you cannot be around without getting harder than a rhino horn. :p

[David Jamieson]

Are you telling me that telling another man that his thighs are well-toned is gay?

it's gay if you add "in those pants".

otherwise that's gym talk for you.

[MasterKiller]

it's gay if you add "in those pants".

otherwise that's gym talk for you.

http://i.imgur.com/UU5HO.jpg

[David Jamieson]

Talk about spit take! :eek:

nice.

[bawang]

i masterbate to iraq war footage. it makes me mentally strong.

[Ray Pina]

dude, this is a kung fu forum and YOU are so effing boring. :rolleyes:

Why did my response bore you?

[Syn7]

For the guys that carry have you looked at your CMA with an eye towards covering yourself until you can draw your firearm safely and fire if needed?

Of course. When two guys are fumbling for a pistol in a phone booth muay thai kicks and a giant double leg isn't gonna really help you. But chin na is just as valuable standing up as it is on the ground as you see it in MMA. Also, many of the locks and holds a juijitsu player uses in the cage while on the ground work very well standing in close quarters. Especially when you are stuck against a wall or in a closet in a phone booth type of scenario.

[Syn7]

Are you telling me that telling another man that his thighs are well-toned is gay?

depends on whos sayin it to who. it could mos def send the wrong signals, thats for sure... lol

[Snipsky]

Why did my response bore you?

you are extremely self absorbed. you bore me. sorry, nah not sorry. you bore me.:(

[Ray Pina]

By mentioning how one can supplement any of their martial training by finding affordable experts in any field?

What would you suggest? What's less boring?


PS

.... if you're bored. Get off the internet and get into the ring. Film it. Share it.

[bawang]

ill ask people to "spar", then go full force and claim i won a fight, and put it youtube, like you.

[Snipsky]

By mentioning how one can supplement any of their martial training by finding affordable experts in any field?

What would you suggest? What's less boring?


PS

.... if you're bored. Get off the internet and get into the ring. Film it. Share it.

THIS! RIGHT HERE.....you are just too STUCK on one MODE. You have nothing ELSE to contribute. u hate TCMA yet you keep coming back.

YOU EFFIN BORE DEAD PEOPLE!!!!!!!

And bawang is correct. You set up people who assume you are going to spar at a certain level then BLAST THEM to try and get the upper hand. that means you lack some real skills.

i repeat....you effin bore me. you're not some god. fool.

[bawang]

no. im not gonna do that. because i got nothing to prove. i never claimed to be a badass master. i do kung fu for health. you on the other hand claim to be badass and cant even make it out of amateur after 20 fukin years.

[hskwarrior]

no. im not gonna do that. because i got nothing to prove. i never claimed to be a badass master. i do kung fu for health. you on the other hand claim to be badass and cant even make it out of amateur after 20 fukin years.

sitting down with a bucket of KFC .....seems like fun

[bawang]

sitting down with a bucket of KFC .....seems like fun

if you dont like kfc you are a traitor to america.

[Ray Pina]

THIS! RIGHT HERE.....you are just too STUCK on one MODE. You have nothing ELSE to contribute. u hate TCMA yet you keep coming back.


This is a forum for ideas. Following one teacher to learn one was is one way. Learning multiple ideas from multiple people and applying what works best for you in a given situation is another way........ one way produces champions.

[

And bawang is correct. You set up people who assume you are going to spar at a certain level then BLAST THEM to try and get the upper hand. that means you lack some real skills.

i repeat....you effin bore me. you're not some god. fool.

Those "set up fights" were challenges made to me..... in fact, in the video you'll see the same guy twice, on two different occasions. Do you think he fell for the same trick that you propose, twice?

He wanted a second shot before I moved to Puerto Rico.

Those fights aside.

I have sanctioned amateur MMA fights in NJ 0-2
I have 2 sanctioned San Da. One in NY. One in NJ -- 02

I have 3 kickboxing matches sanctioned by PR 1-1-1
I have 3 semi-pro MMA events sanctioned by PR 2-1-0

My BJJ competitive record is 5 golds out of the last six tournaments. 1 Silver.

I am an average competitive hobbyist. I am no way near the high level of competition in an 1 style. I'm 37 years old now, getting married in 3 months. Nursing a shoulder injury that still needs fixing.

I have done my fighting. I continue to train and compete.... what you study, how you study, what you do or do not do with it is your business. I sleep well at night. I'm comfortable stepping onto a mat, into a ring or cage anywhere in the world. I've done it enough that I'm familiar and as relatively comfortable as you could be fighting strangers. There's not many anywhere, especially here, that can say that.

And, as always, I'm still willing to stop talking and compare. In the end, that's what it's about. What can you do to me. What can I do to you.

[bawang]

a record of 1-1-1. you are not even fit to be a tomato can.

[Ray Pina]

Fighting is a hobby, something to do in the summer when the waves go flat.

What's your record? Are you developing a fighting career?

[Ray Pina]

1-1-1

That's better than the US record vs Korea, Vietnam and Iraq

[MasterKiller]

What is "semi-pro"?

Either your ammy or pro. What does the "semi" give you?

[sanjuro_ronin]

What is "semi-pro"?

Either your ammy or pro. What does the "semi" give you?

That is when you get paid crap for a fight and DON'T get ranked or the fight is recorded in any professional organization.

[MasterKiller]

That is when you get paid crap for a fight and DON'T get ranked or the fight is recorded in any professional organization.

So you get paid to basically do an exhibition fight?

[Ray Pina]

What is "semi-pro"?

Either your ammy or pro. What does the "semi" give you?

The venue was pro: pro gloves, no shin guards. Elbows were legal. Punches and elbows legal on the ground. Most of the guys were former kick boxers moving into MMA. They made supplemental income from fighting.

I make my living by writing. I took the fight because my coach asked, "You want to fight in whatever month.?"

"I say yes."

Make like $500.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So you get paid to basically do an exhibition fight?

In a nutshell, yeah, or in the case of the early days of MMA and VT, you get paid to fight in a bar or strip club or indian reserve to put on a show for bikers and the like.
Been there and done that.

[Ray Pina]

<---- thinks its interesting that every time a discussion develops on TCMA's value in relation to evidence it can produce a relatively competitive modern fighter...... the discussion turns into personal attacks against me.

That's usually a sign of having weak evidence. Can't attack the argument -- Kung Fu HASN'T produced a relatively modern competitor (with a thousand year head start) -- so you attach the person making the argument.

Just give me a couple names of some TCMA UFC or Pride fighters = argument over.

[Snipsky]

<---- thinks its interesting that every time a discussion develops on TCMA's value in relation to evidence it can produce a relatively competitive modern fighter...... the discussion turns into personal attacks against me.

That's usually a sign of having weak evidence. Can't attack the argument -- Kung Fu HASN'T produced a relatively modern competitor (with a thousand year head start) -- so you attach the person making the argument.

Just give me a couple names of some TCMA UFC or Pride fighters = argument over.

STFU already. you bore the f@#$ out of me with the same BS you always spout.

SO DANG BOOOOOOOOOOOOOORING........

[MasterKiller]

In a nutshell, yeah, or in the case of the early days of MMA and VT, you get paid to fight in a bar or strip club or indian reserve to put on a show for bikers and the like.

Sh1t, bro, that still happens.

There was a promotion not too far from me that put a cage up in the parking lot of a motel.

We just stay away from those fights.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sh1t, bro, that still happens.

There was a promotion not too far from me that put a cage up in the parking lot of a motel.

We just stay away from those fights.

Yeah, for some of us that was the only way to do it ( test ourselves).
Still I am glad I did because it was a good testing venue ( not great) and it exposed me to the "colourful" side of the fight game.
So much better now for guys in MMA and MT, better in all regards.

[MasterKiller]

<---- thinks its interesting that every time a discussion develops on TCMA's value in relation to evidence it can produce a relatively competitive modern fighter...... the discussion turns into personal attacks against me.

That's usually a sign of having weak evidence. Can't attack the argument -- Kung Fu HASN'T produced a relatively modern competitor (with a thousand year head start) -- so you attach the person making the argument.

Just give me a couple names of some TCMA UFC or Pride fighters = argument over.

Onassis Parungao - UFC 7: Hung Gar
Jason Delucia - UFC 2: Five Animals

[Lucas]

Onassis Parungao - UFC 7: Hung Gar
Jason Delucia - UFC 2: Five Animals

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1155548&postcount=86

[Drake]

Actually, we're 2-0 with Iraq. We did everything we could do for them, and then some. If they can't make do with all we've given them, they were doomed from the start.

[Ray Pina]

Onassis Parungao - UFC 7: Hung Gar
Jason Delucia - UFC 2: Five Animals

Modern = today.

[Snipsky]

Modern = today.

Not you!!!! you aren't a champ with that record. LOL

[Ray Pina]

Actually, we're 2-0 with Iraq. .

That's a win for you?

Send Americans over there to die. Kill civilians. Disrupt the entire nation. Create civil war. Atract Al Queda to a country they weren't in before.... all of that and no WMD.

That's victory? Fo who?

[MasterKiller]

Modern = today.

Yet you asked for Pride fighters, too, and Pride is defunct.

Way to move the goal posts.

[Drake]

That's a win for you?

Send Americans over there to die. Kill civilians. Disrupt the entire nation. Create civil war. Atract Al Queda to a country they weren't in before.... all of that and no WMD.

That's victory? Fo who?

1. AQ was in Iraq prior to the invasion.

2. The WMD thing was discussed ad nauseaum. SH admitted he was bluffing with it. Hindsight assessments are a waste of time. He did everything that would make us believe he had WMDs, including hiding documents, barring UN inspectors from locations, and firing up suspected biowarfare locations. I saw the imagery. He was up to no good.

You are one of those revisionists who think life was AWESOME under SH. Try asking an Iraqi how great life was under him.

Maybe if SH didn't invade Kuwait, none of this never would have happened. Or cooperated with UN weapons inspectors. Or not violate the no-fly zone. Or not blatantly defy UN regulations.

Life must be easy in a world where the most difficult decision is whether or not you want whipped cream on your frappucino, and you can stroke your own ego by revising history and invoking the omnipotent power of hindsight.

[Drake]

Modern fighting is best executed with guns. Anything else is just a fun hobby.

[Snipsky]

Pina.....

tell us why anyone should listen to a NON CHAMPION about fighting? the only thing is is more experienced in is losing.

[MasterKiller]

1. AQ was in Iraq prior to the invasion.

2. The WMD thing was discussed ad nauseaum. SH admitted he was bluffing with it. Hindsight assessments are a waste of time. He did everything that would make us believe he had WMDs, including hiding documents, barring UN inspectors from locations, and firing up suspected biowarfare locations. I saw the imagery. He was up to no good.

You are one of those revisionists who think life was AWESOME under SH. Try asking an Iraqi how great life was under him.

Maybe if SH didn't invade Kuwait, none of this never would have happened. Or cooperated with UN weapons inspectors. Or not violate the no-fly zone. Or not blatantly defy UN regulations.

Life must be easy in a world where the most difficult decision is whether or not you want whipped cream on your frappucino, and you can stroke your own ego by revising history and invoking the omnipotent power of hindsight.

LOL! Not to digress, but everyone pretty much knows by now that the WMD was a false flag so Bush and the Neocons could try to create a "new" Middle East, establishing a democracy that would spur a "domino" effect of change throughout the region.

[wenshu]

It is pointless to argue with Ray.

He is just indulging his monthly exercise in sophistry to ameliorate the accumulated remorse and shame that accompanies the study of Wing Chun.

No matter how many examples you give him of competitive Chinese martial arts and artists he is just going to keep clinging to the solipsism that kung fu is composed entirely of Lion Dance and senior citizen Tai Tchwee.

[Drake]

LOL! Not to digress, but everyone pretty much knows by now that the WMD was a false flag so Bush and the Neocons could try to create a "new" Middle East, establishing a democracy that would spur a "domino" effect of change throughout the region.

Actually, we (the intel community) provided the recommendations. Nobody told us "Hey, make it look like this and this is happening". SH pulled off one hell of a bluff. I worked this stuff in the early 2000's...

Not to say Bush didn't have a serious axe to grind with Iraq, and not to say he didn't make some stupid decisions and make some stupid statements... I'm just saying it was more complex than one guy wanting to create a democratic middle east. We all mixed our own kool-aid and drank it.

And while this is my own assessment, I believe it had a lot more to do with a personal issue, as well as a reckless Texan mentality which failed to envision second and third order effects, topped off with George Tenet, who provided blatantly inaccurate data to Bush.

Take a middle to lower level intelligence guy, give him bad info about a guy who tried to kill his dad, and then add a remarkably elaborate bluff by SH... see what happens.

I think most people would prefer to believe in an orchestrated scheme masterminded by brilliant plotters in DC than accept that what really happened looked much like a clown car with two flat tires.

Like people believing in a god because the chaos and utter unpredictability of life is much more unpleasant to swallow.

[wenshu]

I think most people would prefer to believe in an orchestrated scheme masterminded by brilliant plotters in DC than accept that what really happened looked much like a clown car with two flat tires.

How about an orchestrated clown car on fire with two flat tires?

[Lucas]

Modern = today.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1155548&postcount=86

[JamesC]

It is pointless to argue with Ray.

He is just indulging his monthly exercise in sophistry to ameliorate the accumulated remorse and shame that accompanies the study of Wing Chun.

No matter how many examples you give him of competitive Chinese martial arts and artists he is just going to keep clinging to the solipsism that kung fu is composed entirely of Lion Dance and senior citizen Tai Tchwee.

Your posts make my brain hurt...

I'm not sure if I should actually google half of the stuff you say or just refuse to do so on principle.

[hskwarrior]

It is pointless to argue with Ray.

He is just indulging his monthly exercise in sophistry to ameliorate the accumulated remorse and shame that accompanies the study of Wing Chun.

No matter how many examples you give him of competitive Chinese martial arts and artists he is just going to keep clinging to the solipsism that kung fu is composed entirely of Lion Dance and senior citizen Tai Tchwee.

I second that. :D

[Lucas]

whats funny is every time he asks for 'proof' i put up some names and never once has he responded to my posts showing cma fighters that are fullfilling his demands. :rolleyes:

[Yao Sing]

This is all a bit funny, annoying but funny, to me because Kung Fu seems to attract a different mindset IMHO. Not everyone cares to fight in public events.

Some guys love to go to the big tournaments and compete in front of a crowd and others rather stay to themselves and compete "out of the spotlight". Others would rather fight in a club parking lot. I don't think skill has much bearing on where people fight. Especially since these MMA events are relatively new.

Until recently making a living as a fighter was something completely different. You were a bouncer, bodyguard, LEO, military etc. Or backroom bare-knuckle fighter. Or you could be a hitman for the mob.

Seems to me most CMA guys are in it for personal growth and self defense, not to compete and get ranked by a governing body in sanctioned events. That might be an attraction for the MMA crowd like Ray but I have no interest in it at all.

Competition is fun, fighting is fun but my main concern is dealing with the crap in society and I enjoy working out and training with others. I like the "art" in "martial arts", not beating someone down or just "winning".

Seems to me someone into fighting arts would study all that's out there, not just what is needed to win a competition. And seriously that's what MMA is about. You think they don't train to take advantage of the "rules"? I've seen some pretty sad "fights" by "top fighters" that just wanted a win.

[hskwarrior]

whats funny is every time he asks for 'proof' i put up some names and never once has he responded to my posts showing cma fighters that are fullfilling his demands.

i've also shown videos and he's ignored them as well as they were detrimental to his argument.

[Yao Sing]

I predict CMA will show up in the UFC little by little as time goes on. I'm seeing it already in some of the newer fighters dominating their division. They're going beyond the standard and fighting "different". And when they do something that's taught in most strip mall Karate schools the commentators drool.

Who was it that, in a recent UFC (141?), knocked his opponent out with a spinning heel kick (wheel kick)? The crowd went wild and Joe Rogan drooled.

Spinning backfists, BJ Penn's flexibility stuffing takedowns (common in any TMA school). What's with all the hammerfists and where did they come from?

You can only do the same stuff for so long. How boring (and the UFC is entertinment) are fights with 2 guys doing the same basic stuff over and over?

[wenshu]

Your posts make my brain hurt...

I'm not sure if I should actually google half of the stuff you say or just refuse to do so on principle.

Most of the time it's nonsense. Just the vanity of listening to myself chew on fifty cent words.

[MasterKiller]

http://i.imgur.com/8Vl0J.gif

[wenshu]

http://us.acidcow.com/pics/20110624/bouncing_tits_16.gif

[hskwarrior]

now masterkiller, that image you posted is far more interesting that any redundant conversation coming from Ray Pina.....LMAO....

**** i love as$......

http://img.ffffound.com/static-data/assets/6/09ca48144061e926f1f34ca05dd29128fc8b35cd_m.gif

[hskwarrior]

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/703571_o.gif

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/big_booty_gif.gif

[hskwarrior]

http://www.gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=1520735

[Ray Pina]

Life must be easy in a world where the most difficult decision is whether or not you want whipped cream on your frappucino, and you can stroke your own ego by revising history and invoking the omnipotent power of hindsight.

I'm not a soldier. I get to make decisions about everything in my life.... including about what I wear, whether to shave or not, where to live, what to eat, when to go to bed.... I even get to decide to murder or not.

[Ray Pina]

Pina.....

tell us why anyone should listen to a NON CHAMPION about fighting? the only thing is is more experienced in is losing.

I didn't make it to the NFL. In fact, I quit football after 1 year of college.... I know more about the game than fact toting fans who drip hot sauce on their lap on the couch.

I have wins. I have losses.... natural for a 30-something-year old competing against full-time training modern fighters (in their 20s) to have an unimpressive record.

I don't deny it. I don't claim to be a champion (though I could be a Master Division champ in BJJ if my shoulder heals).

What I claim, is that many of the sifus and self proclaimed masters here have even FAR lesser credentials than me when it comes to unarmed combat.

You are giving me hell. What's your fight record? Do you have any card or state sanctioned proof? Video?

People who fight understand there's a 50/50 chance of victory/defeat.... and defeats hurt. Even wins hurt. Behind each fight, is months of training a non-fighter couldn't understand. Experience. I spent about 4 years living that way. Dedicated to fighting. I learned a lot about my body, mind, abilities and limitations. I also learned enough to be free to speak my mind, and not back down from a challenge.....there are many board members who have created quite a reputation not only without fighting, but ducking fights.

[Drake]

I'm not a soldier. I get to make decisions about everything in my life.... including about what I wear, whether to shave or not, where to live, what to eat, when to go to bed.... I even get to decide to murder or not.

And without soldiers you'd not have any of those choices to make on your own. Funny how that works.

[Snipsky]

I didn't make it to the NFL. In fact, I quit football after 1 year of college.... I know more about the game than fact toting fans who drip hot sauce on their lap on the couch.

I have wins. I have losses.... natural for a 30-something-year old competing against full-time training modern fighters (in their 20s) to have an unimpressive record.

I don't deny it. I don't claim to be a champion (though I could be a Master Division champ in BJJ if my shoulder heals).

What I claim, is that many of the sifus and self proclaimed masters here have even FAR lesser credentials than me when it comes to unarmed combat.

You are giving me hell. What's your fight record? Do you have any card or state sanctioned proof? Video?

People who fight understand there's a 50/50 chance of victory/defeat.... and defeats hurt. Even wins hurt. Behind each fight, is months of training a non-fighter couldn't understand. Experience. I spent about 4 years living that way. Dedicated to fighting. I learned a lot about my body, mind, abilities and limitations. I also learned enough to be free to speak my mind, and not back down from a challenge.....there are many board members who have created quite a reputation not only without fighting, but ducking fights.

you really don't think you are stupid boring do you? :eek:

[Ray Pina]

you really don't think you are stupid boring do you? :eek:

I'm actually anxiously waiting to here about your fight experience.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I predict CMA will show up in the UFC little by little as time goes on. I'm seeing it already in some of the newer fighters dominating their division. They're going beyond the standard and fighting "different". And when they do something that's taught in most strip mall Karate schools the commentators drool.

Who was it that, in a recent UFC (141?), knocked his opponent out with a spinning heel kick (wheel kick)? The crowd went wild and Joe Rogan drooled.

Spinning backfists, BJ Penn's flexibility stuffing takedowns (common in any TMA school). What's with all the hammerfists and where did they come from?

You can only do the same stuff for so long. How boring (and the UFC is entertinment) are fights with 2 guys doing the same basic stuff over and over?

No offense bro but this is the type of post that gives guys like Ray ammo.

First off , spinng hook kicks and back kicks are pretty common in KB and though rare in MMA, they do have their proponents, most of which are from Karate or MT back grounds and not TCMA.
Second, BJ Penn was pure BJJ and his ability to stop takedowns was from BJJ and NOT for any "TMA" and they are not most certainly "common" in TMA since none of the TMA that ever went to the UFC or fought MMA had them.
Hammerfists exist in every MA, including BJJ and MT the two MAIN styles that all MMA fighters train in, including those MMA fighters that came from TCMA backgrounds.

I think Ray is full of hot air too, but lets not be full of hot air with him, ok?

[Ray Pina]

And without soldiers you'd not have any of those choices to make on your own. Funny how that works.

I have friends in the military. I respect the military.... but what I do, the freedoms I enjoy, are based on my own hard work.

If you want to claim some freedom giving power, you and your men go fight so that I don't have to pay $1.30 for every $1 my country borrows from the Federal Reserve. Educate yourself on that, and realize who you work for.

[Snipsky]

I'm actually anxiously waiting to here about your fight experience.

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/991454_o.gif

[Ray Pina]

less clicking and typing of BS.

More sharing of your vast martial experience.... or is your vanity and air of superiority based on nothing, like your TCMA technique.

[wenshu]

No offense bro but this is the type of post that gives guys like Ray ammo.

First off , spinng hook kicks and back kicks are pretty common in KB and though rare in MMA, they do have their proponents, most of which are from Karate or MT back grounds and not TCMA.
Second, BJ Penn was pure BJJ and his ability to stop takedowns was from BJJ and NOT for any "TMA" and they are not most certainly "common" in TMA since none of the TMA that ever went to the UFC or fought MMA had them.
Hammerfists exist in every MA, including BJJ and MT the two MAIN styles that all MMA fighters train in, including those MMA fighters that came from TCMA backgrounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9P5zbWT72M

:50 to :56 pure Shuai Jiao. Biezi into Da De He.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9P5zbWT72M

:50 to :56 pure Shuai Jiao. Biezi into Da De He.

Awesome and if he was a judoka it would have been pure judo.
If he was sambo it would have been pure sambo.
Etc.

[David Jamieson]

wait for it...wait ...for ...it

[Lucas]

wait for it...wait ...for ...it

im waiting!!!!

[wenshu]

wait for it...wait ...for ...it

http://i.imgur.com/4AtHV.png


oh,

wrong site. . .

[Yao Sing]

No offense bro but this is the type of post that gives guys like Ray ammo.

First off , spinng hook kicks and back kicks are pretty common in KB and though rare in MMA, they do have their proponents, most of which are from Karate or MT back grounds and not TCMA.
Second, BJ Penn was pure BJJ and his ability to stop takedowns was from BJJ and NOT for any "TMA" and they are not most certainly "common" in TMA since none of the TMA that ever went to the UFC or fought MMA had them.
Hammerfists exist in every MA, including BJJ and MT the two MAIN styles that all MMA fighters train in, including those MMA fighters that came from TCMA backgrounds.

I think Ray is full of hot air too, but lets not be full of hot air with him, ok?

Don't mean to argue with you but if you think BJ Penn's flexability is something special you haven't been around the same places I have. That's about standard for a TMA school that spends every class warm-up stretching. Heck, physically I could do what he does (one of his major feats was sprawling with one leg while opponent had his other leg and everyone was amazed at his flexability), I just need to be able to do it under pressure. One of my favorite sparring moves was a sloppy kick where I let my opponent grab it and lift it trying to throw me off. I lean in and hit them in the face a few times before they realize the extent of my flexability.

I also don't really care where somebody learned something if it's the same as CMA and it works then CMA works. It doesn't stop working because it has the CMA label on it.

My point that I'm not getting across well is that unorthodox moves (non-BJJ, MT, Boxing) will be showing up in the UFC as fighters look to gain an edge. I don't expect to see regular KF guys looking for a sportfighting career. Sorry if that feeds into Ray's delerium but not everyone that likes fighting wants to compete in sporting events.

Sorry about painting MMA guys with a broad brush but my impression is they just want to know enough to beat on people and win sporting events.

Back at my last school there were a couple of brothers that signed up but then *****ed about the training. Apparently they didn't want to learn anything, just wanted to fight. And they didn't want to fight in the ring or they would've gone to the Scrapyard in Orlando which trained, and held, full contact kickboxing events. Instead they went around challenging other MA schools and fighting in nightclub parking lots etc.

Most peeps joining KF aren't just looking to beat on others and I don't think they want to compete in sporting events. As much as guys like Ray want to say it's the same it really isn't. Sport fighting is not real fighting. KF is about real fighting, not sport. Some of it can be applied in a sporting event but quite a bit has to be dropped and most aren't willing to make that sacrifice.

UFC fights have been stopped for accidental eye pokes, saying intentional eye pokes don't work is BS.

UFC fights have been stopped from groin shots (actually I think it was a different
televised venue on MTV where the fighter could not continue even after taking time to recover), so groin shots work.

MMA uses what I call slow breaks, applying pressure until opponent taps. FK uses fast breaks where to make it work it's all or nothing, go fast and go hard. Can't do that in sport but works great in the street.

MMA throws are intended to get the fight to the ground, KF throws intend to break something.

No strikes to back of head in sport (notice fighters turn their heads exposing the back of head to avoid strikes?).

Small Circle JJ? Why all the rolling when all you need is to snap a few fingers?

Too many, on both sides (TMA and MMA), are living in pretend worlds. That's my opinion.

[MasterKiller]

And without soldiers you'd not have any of those choices to make on your own. Funny how that works.
The last time I checked, American soldiers haven't fought for my personal freedoms since 1812 or so...

[Drake]

The last time I checked, American soldiers haven't fought for my personal freedoms since 1812 or so...

Are you suggesting that we let bad guys follow through next time, just as a subtle reminder? I mean, if you think the world will play nice and all without us, by all means...

And even using the most liberal terms of "fought for your freedom" and excluding what a remote few have argued as "not really a threat", you can only back that up to 1945-ish.

Because we all know that if there was no military, the USSR wouldn't have expended, right?

And we all know there is no current plan for a global (that means everyone) caliphate, right?

[Yao Sing]

What, you don't feel safer now? Aren't the moose limbs almost ready to bomb us and invade the fatherland, er, homeland, I mean mainland?

[Syn7]

First off , spinng hook kicks and back kicks are pretty common in KB and though rare in MMA, they do have their proponents, most of which are from Karate or MT back grounds and not TCMA.
Second, BJ Penn was pure BJJ and his ability to stop takedowns was from BJJ and NOT for any "TMA" and they are not most certainly "common" in TMA since none of the TMA that ever went to the UFC or fought MMA had them.
Hammerfists exist in every MA, including BJJ and MT the two MAIN styles that all MMA fighters train in, including those MMA fighters that came from TCMA backgrounds.

Word. But the hammer fist was popularized in MMA by guys like Mark Coleman who didn't really have very strong hands, but where very good at holding you down while they grind away at you with somewhat laughable yet effective hammer fists.

I think he just meant that TMA guys are generally as flexible as Penn. I disagree, but I don't think he was saying penn was using TMA.

MMA was started by TMA cats. I don't understand the division? Did it occur when wrestlers started owning? Even if it was, thats been nuetralized.

The reason why guys like Rogan are impressed by front kicks knocking people out is because they never see that in MMA, that's all. Joe Rogan was a TKD player, I'm sure he's seen enough KO's from front kicks.

Think of it like this... I can do a back handspring pretty easilly. No big deal right. But if I see somebody do it on a tight rope I'm impressed. The reason you see these kicks in TMA comps more often is because of one big reason. No takedowns. In a point match or a stand up fight there is always a way out. In MMA if you miss that kick you may end up on your back therefore people think twice before going upstairs in such an overextended fashion. Also in a point match if you do get nailed the fight is stopped whereas in an MMA match it's followed up by something even more nasty. In a point match or even a stand up fight I would be way more likely to overextend myself and take those chances than I would in an MA match.


oh that's more for the guy you were talking to than you SJ.

[Syn7]

UFC fights have been stopped for accidental eye pokes, saying intentional eye pokes don't work is BS.

UFC fights have been stopped from groin shots (actually I think it was a different
televised venue on MTV where the fighter could not continue even after taking time to recover), so groin shots work.

MMA uses what I call slow breaks, applying pressure until opponent taps. FK uses fast breaks where to make it work it's all or nothing, go fast and go hard. Can't do that in sport but works great in the street.

MMA throws are intended to get the fight to the ground, KF throws intend to break something.

No strikes to back of head in sport (notice fighters turn their heads exposing the back of head to avoid strikes?).

What you fail to understand is that most of the time when a groin shot or an eye poke lands it's because the opponent wasn't guarding against it because it's not a legal attack. If groin shots and eye pokes were allowed, fighters would adjust accordingly.
And as far as the guys who turn away from punches, they turn their head because its harder than their face. I would do the same in a real fight if I had nowhere else to go. I've seen tons of people save their asses with a good turtle and a sharp mind. Either doing damage control or biding their time.

I saw one guy get beat up pretty fast, he was blindsided and grounded. He turtled and the guy kicked him like 20 times then got bored and walked away. The kid jumped up and beat the living sh1t out of the guy who was all spent and tired from kicking so much without actually doing much damage.

[Yao Sing]

Too many times, on this forum, I've seen MMA guys bashing moves that end up winning fights in the UFC. There was a time, right here, when everyone was talking down head kicks and Crocop comes along taking guys out with head kicks. Then he even gets dopped by a head kick. And these are big guys using them.

Swinging arm strikes like sow choy were bashed by the MMA faithful but Chuck Liddel was dropping guys with a swinging overhand right. Stuff they bash ends up finding it's way into MMA.

"Eye pokes don't work I'll just break your arm" was another, then I see a UFC fight stopped because one fighter couldn't continue due to "accidental" eye pokes (the one guy broke his left hand so many times he could barely make a fist and poked every time he tried to jab).

I think guys like Ray drop their TMA when they join a MMA gym for 2 reasons: 1. they buy into the idea that only Boxing, MT and BJJ work in the ring and 2. the MMA gym isn't qualified to teach any else.

Where are the guys that trained TMA with a MMA mindset? Who actually tried it and said it didn't work?

Ray thinks there aren't any because TMA doesn't work, I say nobody made the effort (other than the few listed examples). Let's see where China goes with it but you have to strip out all the stuff that's not allowed in competition.

[Yao Sing]

What you fail to understand is that most of the time when a groin shot or an eye poke lands it's because the opponent wasn't guarding against it because it's not a legal attack.

That might be true sometime but the specific fight I mention doesn't fit the "I'm not ready for that attack". Are you saying he could have blocked it if it was a legal jab but because the fingers were pointing out he couldn't? That's lame.

Something flies towards your face in a fight you block it or you don't. Does it matter if it's a fist, finger, phoenix eye, or leopard fist?

[Yao Sing]

And we all know there is no current plan for a global (that means everyone) caliphate, right?

Yep, what the IMF bankers and UN globalism is the lesser of two evils so let's go with that. Seems to me like who do you want to enslave you, bad guys #1 or bad guys #2?

How about no enslavement? Not an option?

Here's where you say there's no western globalist agenda, that's just conspiracy nuttery.

[Syn7]

That might be true sometime but the specific fight I mention doesn't fit the "I'm not ready for that attack". Are you saying he could have blocked it if it was a legal jab but because the fingers were pointing out he couldn't? That's lame.

Something flies towards your face in a fight you block it or you don't. Does it matter if it's a fist, finger, phoenix eye, or leopard fist?

Thats not what i said at all. I'm saying that a jab to the face is an acceptble risk to give some back, an eye poke is not. If the eye poke was legal, I wouldnt take the chance.

In sport one is more likely to trade than they would on the street. Not a tough concept, really.

But you make a good point that also supports what SJ was saying before. If you can block a jab, you can block an eye poke.

[bawang]

It is pointless to argue with Ray.

He is just indulging his monthly exercise in sophistry to ameliorate the accumulated remorse and shame that accompanies the study of Wing Chun.

No matter how many examples you give him of competitive Chinese martial arts and artists he is just going to keep clinging to the solipsism that kung fu is composed entirely of Lion Dance and senior citizen Tai Tchwee.

exactly.

once you get the wing chun taint, you have it forever. its a fate worse than death and i wouldnt wish it on my worst enemy.

[Yao Sing]

Thats not what i said at all. I'm saying that a jab to the face is an acceptble risk to give some back, an eye poke is not. If the eye poke was legal, I wouldnt take the chance.

Could have sworn you said:

What you fail to understand is that most of the time when a groin shot or an eye poke lands it's because the opponent wasn't guarding against it because it's not a legal attack.

So he's not guarding against illegal eye pokes but is guarding against legal jabs?

Don't sweat it, I know what you meant to say. Tough getting your point across isn't it? :)


But you make a good point that also supports what SJ was saying before. If you can block a jab, you can block an eye poke.

And conversly, if you can land a jab you can land an eye poke. Something a lot of the MMA guys that show up here fail to grasp.

[Drake]

Yep, what the IMF bankers and UN globalism is the lesser of two evils so let's go with that. Seems to me like who do you want to enslave you, bad guys #1 or bad guys #2?

How about no enslavement? Not an option?

Here's where you say there's no western globalist agenda, that's just conspiracy nuttery.

And here's where I'll say it again. If there WAS a super evil conglomerate out to devour us and out children, then they have done a ****ty job so far. Even I could be a super powerful evil corporate millionaire if I wanted to be. Actually, that's part of my plan... I'll let you know if there really is a super evil corporate conglomerate when I get there.

[Yao Sing]

So the UN and everybody pushing for globalism is lying? There's no effort to create a European Union, North American Union, Asian Union, etc? No One World Currency plans? Just random coincidences?

[Syn7]

And conversly, if you can land a jab you can land an eye poke. Something a lot of the MMA guys that show up here fail to grasp.

Exactly, and in a sport setting I may let you hit my face in order to take you down or whatever. I wouldn't do that in a street fight unless I had no choice.

And I know what I said, you should also quote the part where I clarified the point. Which is hy you know what I meant.

It's simple enough, if I feel I may lose an eye I will protect them more than if that fear wasn't there. And in MMA that fear is not there. Or any combat sport.


Im with SJ on this one.

[Dragonzbane76]

And conversly, if you can land a jab you can land an eye poke. Something a lot of the MMA guys that show up here fail to grasp.

the eye poke is something that happens a lot in mma fights. Accident yes, but it still happens. My thoughts are it's a higher risk technique. Meaning, if by chance, the person raises there arm up and you happen to throw this technique with force and commitment you might dislocate you fingers striking an upraised arm going for that. To me it's more of a higher risk technique than a standard fist/punch. Not saying in the least it would not work and if it was my only option then yes I would use it. For me though it's not something I would intentionally go for with the weight of me dislocating something and making that arm useless in a fight. I think most would agree that street is different from ring. I think most sport fighters understand this, maybe not the douchbag tapout wearing guys that have went and trained a few times. On the other hand you have the traditionalist whom think that all these unorthodox techniques can over come anything when simplisity usually wins the day. I weigh most techniques with percentage of achieving the goal and not hindering myself in the process. just my 2 cents on the matter.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Getting poked in the eye sucks, happens a lo in MMA ( because of the open fingers) but happens a bit in boxing too ( the thumb) and sometime son purpose.
Do they ever end fights? Nope.
Do they stop fights? of course, that is part of the rules.
Note that when eye pokes were allowed they made no difference in any fight.
I've been poked in the eye a few times, sucks but no biggie.
Seen one guy get his eye blown out once though and that was from an regular punch.
Eye ball was a mess, almost hanging out too, freaky thing.

[bawang]

It's simple enough, if I feel I may lose an eye I will protect them more than if that fear wasn't there. And in MMA that fear is not there. Or any combat sport.




let me explain this to you.

if someone decide to theoretically take your money. if you try to fight back, he *might kill you. if you try to poke his eye out, he *will kill you.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Many moves were made illegal in MMA to cater to the "wimpy" in the US the gave out licences for sports ( head stomping is one)
This is common knowledge.
Many moves were made illegal because they had very little outcome on the fight per say BUT could cause non-vital damage that could end a fighters career ( eye pokes are a prime example of this).
Some were made illegal because men don't like getting their balls kicked.

[ginosifu]

let me explain this to you.

if someone decide to theoretically take your money. if you try to fight back, he *might kill you. if you try to poke his eye out, he *will kill you.

Maybe????? Maybe not. You are assuming again bawang. A poke to the eye may distract him just enough for you to run. A poke to the eye may change his Yi or intent.

Fighting is always dirty. If you were to fight me... I definately would scratch you in the eyes and pull your hair and kick you in the balls (If you had any).

ginosifu

[bawang]

i cant believe your stupidity and child like naiviety. i am ashamed for you.

[Ray Pina]

For all the master eye pokers


If you or one of your training brothers believes they are being shorted by MMA rules, I can set you up in an Anything Goes (head butts, eye pokes, groin shots, biting) match for decent money + travel expenses to and in Rio.

Good luck eye poking a 4th or 5th dan BJJ black belt. They'll tear your ****ing arm off.

[ginosifu]

For all the master eye pokers


If you or one of your training brothers believes they are being shorted by MMA rules, I can set you up in an Anything Goes (head butts, eye pokes, groin shots, biting) match for decent money + travel expenses to and in Rio.

Good luck eye poking a 4th or 5th dan BJJ black belt. They'll tear your fuking arm off.

Any given person can fight well. BJJ fighters can fight well, Kung Fu Fighters can fight well, Russian Sambo fighters can fight welletc etc. It all depends on the skill of the each individual fighter.

Because you have not seen me fight..... how do you know so well that my eye poking or groin striking is good or bad? How would you know if I would or would not rip a new ass.hole in those BJJ 4th and 5th degree fighters?

Do not make assumptions about anyone or any style until you have been there and done that else you make an ass of yourself.

ginosifu

[David Jamieson]

eye poking? wtf is that garbage about.
seriously? why do some of you people even care so much about something you obviously don't do and know even less about by measure of your spontaneous ejaculations of nonsense here in these forums?

People make this **** up in their heads and then come here to try and post an argument about it?

That is moon bat crazy. Seriously. there is a mental deficiency occurring in people who create these strawmen in my opinion. If I set out to dump someone on their arse, it ain't gonna be like a jackie chan movie fu thing. Who does that? lol

[hskwarrior]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2095/2050575069_6f206a4bd0.jpg

[Ray Pina]

Because you have not seen me fight..... how do you know so well that my eye poking or groin striking is good or bad? How would you know if I would or would not rip a new ass.hole in those BJJ 4th and 5th degree fighters?



I don't. And neither do you if you have not placed yourself in a venue to determine how you compare.

That's all I'm saying.

Talk is talk. Having a depth of TCMAers representing in these venues -- like BJJ, like Sambo -- is another. Maybe you missed your time. What about your students? As long as TCMA keeps ducking the issue it will continuously be in the position it is in.

I'm radical and take it a step further, which I could see bothers people: Kung Fu is dead and won't be brought back to life. If someone from TCMA is going to the UFC, they'll be conditioning like MMA. They'll know judo and or BJJ. They use modern kick boxing techniques and strategies.

[Snipsky]

Talk is talk. Having a depth of TCMAers representing in these venues -- like BJJ, like Sambo -- is another. Maybe you missed your time. What about your students? As long as TCMA keeps ducking the issue it will continuously be in the position it is in.

No one gives two sh1ts about your opinion or view on TCMA. YOU missed your time. and you keep ducking all of those people posting videos contradicting your beliefs. you're not a UFC, PRIDE, or whatever type of fighter. you're not a champion in ANY venue.

just sayin.

[Ray Pina]

Nor do I claim to be at or above the high level of competitive fighting.

I do claim Kung Fu is $hit. And worthless. ANd full of weak, fearful people.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nor do I claim to be at or above the high level of competitive fighting.

I do claim Kung Fu is $hit. And worthless. ANd full of weak, fearful people.

Tell us how you really feel Ray :D

[Ray Pina]

you're not a champion in ANY venue.

just sayin.

Not necessarily true. Took home the 185-200lbs Gold in the Caribbean BJJ opens in 2008 and 2009.

[ginosifu]

I don't. And neither do you if you have not placed yourself in a venue to determine how you compare.

That's all I'm saying. Talk is talk. .

Yes Ray.... talk is only talk. I have wrestled since the age of 12. I started Chinese Shuai Chiao in my 20's. I fought Many SC / San Shou fights and even 1 Cage / UFC style. I think I can say that I have been there and done that already.

You talk about TCMA is dead and does not bring any thing to the MMA plate. The problem is that you are living in your own little fantasy world. Just because you do not see any TCMA in the MMA ring does mean it does work.

What if there are good / great TCMA fighters who just "Choose" not to go into the MMA style ring? How do you know that? What if all the really great kung fu fighters just prefer other venues to fight in? You live Cali and only see what is around you. How do you what is going on here in Cleveland?

The vids you put on your sig.... I am assuming that is you, fighting, yes? This is just my observation, but you would get pummled by some of my BEGINNER San Shou fighters. I am not trying to put you down or degrade your fighting skill but, just trying to give you an honest critique of your fighting.

This is just my talk..... talk on the Internet. The reality is: Until you fight my guys... all it is, is just talk. Try not to assume so much about other people's abilities until you have touched hands with them.

ginosifu

[Ray Pina]

1) UFC /MMA is not a westcoast, east coast phenomenon. It's global.

2) Some, many, most GREAT TCMAers might prefer sitting on the sidelines. What if .1 percent were willing and able.... TCMA would have a healthy showing.

3) I did lose some, many, fights in the days of that one video. It's about 10 years old.
I'd love to see some of your video.

4) This is not about me. This is about me claiming TCMA as a viable martial art, is dead. There's form and Wushu and Chi Kung and herbs and needles and kwan dos.... I do not deny that. What there isn't is a half healthy population of TCMA fighters willing and capable of competing in open international competition.... ie, TCMA is dead and sort of like special olympics for fighters with special rules.

[Ray Pina]

trolling with the truth = bite after bite after bite.



(relying on the insecure to defend their apparent weakness)

[wenshu]

How's that spare tire?

I can recommend some diet plans if you're frustrated.

[hskwarrior]

How's that spare tire?

I can recommend some diet plans if you're frustrated.

he doesn't believe he has one hahahaha. tried callin other people fat....:p

[Neeros]

1) UFC /MMA is not a westcoast, east coast phenomenon. It's global.

2) Some, many, most GREAT TCMAers might prefer sitting on the sidelines. What if .1 percent were willing and able.... TCMA would have a healthy showing.

3) I did lose some, many, fights in the days of that one video. It's about 10 years old.
I'd love to see some of your video.

4) This is not about me. This is about me claiming TCMA as a viable martial art, is dead. There's form and Wushu and Chi Kung and herbs and needles and kwan dos.... I do not deny that. What there isn't is a half healthy population of TCMA fighters willing and capable of competing in open international competition.... ie, TCMA is dead and sort of like special olympics for fighters with special rules.

What is the difference between TCMA now, and back when it was used daily in warfare and street combat? To me it is the way it is trained. There are traditional schools still even if they are somewhat rare.

I look forward to proving people like you wrong. :)