some sort of Bong Sau?

[imperialtaichi]

http://www.becomeaboxer.com/resources/floyd-mayweathers-defense-explained.jpg

Not saying it is or it isn't. A friend of mine posted this on another site. Thought it could be a good discussion starting point.

[anerlich]

I think the elbow has to be more involved to really call it a bon, though similar tactics I guess.

More IMO a cross defense protecting the jaw with the shoulder.

Good discussion point definitely. Had to think about it.

[Yoshiyahu]

What you see in boxing among african americans is the fusion of 52 blocks...its a african american boxing martial arts style that imploys ideas from wing chun and other martial arts.

Google 52 blocks...i have not found a website showing what professional african americans from boxing to mma who study it...But its big in the prison system and the inner city areas!!!

It is essential an urban street fighting art!

http://www.martialartsny.com/uploaded_images/52-755794.JPG

http://9thdan.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/52blocks_nybig.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38uVH9-DCdk




This often results in fractures to the metacarpels. This can also occur to punches landing on the head, which is why palm strikes are the preferred method of striking to the head in hand to hand combat. Slaps are used in 52 Blocks street fighting moves. Its an ever advancing method involving dynamic torso twisting, tight footwork, shifting stances, and a natural flowing pressure-fighting feel. Some of the “blocks” or moves are:
■Skull and Crossbones
■Close Door Open Door
■Triangle Train
■Black Man Rising
■Kiss and Catch
■Scoop against shank
■“g-lock”
■The pants leg flip
■Shaolin blocks
■Secret g=mc lock
■Defense against an uppercut
■Circle hands trap
■Hook and take down.
■Open gates (buttefly) and take down.
■Choke out
■The shank
■Gun disarming
■Slap hands etc.

Prominent New York trainer, Lyte Burly maintains that 52 Blocks “is 90% elbows”. Unlike the stiffer approach though used in Muay Thai, 52 requires fluidity of the shoulder joints and rotator cuffs. This is achieved by daily mobility exercises that increase and maintain that suppleness of the joints.

Footwork and body Movements

Although developed in close quarters situations, such as crowded and cramped cells, it does have footwork and evasive moves of the head. It is common to hone reflexes and condition the defensive movements through highly repetitious fear drills and dodging moves.

Elbow and Forearm Blocks

[anerlich]

LOL, I've got a book with Ambrose Palmer, World Champ John Famechon's trainer, doing that defense in the first half of the 20th century and teaching it to John F himself.

It's an old style boxing defense, nothing to do with race or 52 blocks.

[imperialtaichi]

LOL, I've got a book with Ambrose Palmer, World Champ John Famechon's trainer, doing that defense in the first half of the 20th century and teaching it to John F himself.

It's an old style boxing defense, nothing to do with race or 52 blocks.

Doesn't matter what century or geography, we all have two arms and legs.... although some of the Ming/Qing Chinese fighters may have shorter legs and arms than fighters of today ;)

[imperialtaichi]

Talking about old boxers, I like a lot of Jack Dempsey's methods.

[wingchunIan]

LOL 52 blocks..... got visions of inmates lining up practising drills of this amazing new urban, prison based fighting system. Some people will believe anything:p
This shape / move has been in boxing since the year dot. It uses some of the same principles of bong sau in that it comes in to play when at close range and the hand is down, fastest thing to get up in the way is the elbow. As the previous poster said, there tends to be more shoulder lift than bong sau and most boxers learn the move from going in and out of the cross guard.
This thread however could easily go the route of the belfort clip thread so it'll be interesting to see where it goes.

[imperialtaichi]

LOL 52 blocks..... got visions of inmates lining up practising drills of this amazing new urban, prison based fighting system. Some people will believe anything:p
This shape / move has been in boxing since the year dot. It uses some of the same principles of bong sau in that it comes in to play when at close range and the hand is down, fastest thing to get up in the way is the elbow. As the previous poster said, there tends to be more shoulder lift than bong sau and most boxers learn the move from going in and out of the cross guard.
This thread however could easily go the route of the belfort clip thread so it'll be interesting to see where it goes.

According to one of the grand daddies of the 52 Block, it evolved from 70's when people like to fight using Boxing techniques; so obviously a lot of moves come from boxing. Of course, others claim it evolved from old African fighting styles. Frankly, I don't care.

But what interest me is how some techniques are cross platformed, whether it is Eastern or Western. As I always say, we are all the same anatomically and physiologically (tho some size difference and proportion difference.)

[anerlich]

Talking about old boxers, I like a lot of Jack Dempsey's methods.

Same here, opinions vary but I see a lot of similarities with the WC I learned.

[LoneTiger108]

Not saying it is or it isn't. A friend of mine posted this on another site. Thought it could be a good discussion starting point.

If you have been taught that bongsau is a 'fixed' position, as it is commonly taught to beginners, then you will be inclined to think that this isn't a bongsau.

But if you have stayed in class for more than the intro and basics and been exposed to the actual mechanics and structure of what makes a bongsau a bongsau (ie. wrist/elbow/shoulder alignment) then you will see bongsau in both of the boxers, the hook as well as the defence.

As for the 52 Blocks. Really?? Are we really going to go over all that stuff again lol??! haven't we had enough of 'discussing' what bongsau is??? It's kinda boring now... :confused:

[GlennR]

http://www.becomeaboxer.com/resources/floyd-mayweathers-defense-explained.jpg

Not saying it is or it isn't. A friend of mine posted this on another site. Thought it could be a good discussion starting point.

It's not bong Sao at all to me, the only thing in common is the arms is bent. If you notice his left shoulder, it's lifted to cover his jaw. He probably had a low left guard to start with and that's the natural reaction when at that range.
Having said that, a lot of boxers use a bong like motion at close range, it's a favorite of mine.

[Yoshiyahu]

i wish i knew someone in my area who practiced 52 blocks...i would love to intergrate it with my wing chun!

[YouKnowWho]

i wish i knew someone in my area who practiced 52 blocks...i would love to intergrate it with my wing chun!

If you train punches, you will always "hit others". If you train blocks, you will always be "hit by others".

[JPinAZ]

I'd say this is not WCK bong sau for most of the same reasons already listed.

In addition to those, I'd say, to call it a 'WC Bong Sau' it would need to be suported by the same structural integrity as a WC bong sau, which this is not (for one, he's leaning). Also, his facing is off. And, the contact point for a bong sau is not the upper arm past the elbow. It's usually either the striking point or the forearm depending on the type of bong used as well as the facing, distance, leverage point, etc.
Haha, since we're talking WC bong sau, might as well fit some the parameters besides just shape!


i wish i knew someone in my area who practiced 52 blocks...i would love to intergrate it with my wing chun!

That would be cool, then maybe you would stop littering up this WC forum with your continued nonsese and start posting on 52 block threads ;)

[Phil Redmond]

52 Blocks, Jail House Rock, Compton style etc., are styles that were practiced mainly in prisons. When guys got relaesed they taught people outside. As to the origin, how knows. But people in dire need of self defense tend to create methods of defense. It's happened in many cultures.

[Yoshiyahu]

If you train punches, you will always "hit others". If you train blocks, you will always be "hit by others".

lol how do you know of 52 blocks?


I'd say this is not WCK bong sau for most of the same reasons already listed.

In addition to those, I'd say, to call it a 'WC Bong Sau' it would need to be suported by the same structural integrity as a WC bong sau, which this is not (for one, he's leaning). Also, his facing is off. And, the contact point for a bong sau is not the upper arm past the elbow. It's usually either the striking point or the forearm depending on the type of bong used as well as the facing, distance, leverage point, etc.
Haha, since we're talking WC bong sau, might as well fit some the parameters besides just shape!



That would be cool, then maybe you would stop littering up this WC forum with your continued nonsese and start posting on 52 block threads ;)

dude stop being a hater!

[TenTigers]

(sigh) dude, it's called a shoulder roll, a common technique in boxing.
nothing more, nothing less....

[Vajramusti]

(sigh) dude, it's called a shoulder roll, a common technique in boxing.
nothing more, nothing less....
----------------------------------------------------------





Research confirms that drinking gives you the same benefits yoga does !!!
Savasana
Position of total relaxation.
-----------------------
Sorry that I don't know how to transfer the graphics... but you get the idea---- things look similar but are not the same. <g>

joy

[JPinAZ]

dude stop being a hater!

Hater?? I am a hater because I think only an idiot would think this very common boxing defensive technique which has been around a loonngg time originated from 52 block? Yup, I hate having to listen to or read utter stupidity like that. :rolleyes:

Here's some more clueless and utter rediculousness that, IMO, this forum could do without:

What you see in boxing among african americans is the fusion of 52 blocks...its a african american boxing martial arts style that imploys ideas from wing chun and other martial arts.

Google 52 blocks...i have not found a website showing what professional african americans from boxing to mma who study it...But its big in the prison system and the inner city areas!!!

[Yoshiyahu]

Yes man you right all the techniques 52 blocks utilizes has been around long before it was created....

52 blocks is nothing new...just a combining of different techniques from different fighting arts...including boxing!!!


Hater?? I am a hater because I think only an idiot would think this very common boxing defensive technique which has been around a loonngg time originated from 52 block? Yup, I hate having to listen to or read utter stupidity like that. :rolleyes:

Here's some more clueless and utter rediculousness that, IMO, this forum could do without:

[trubblman]

http://www.becomeaboxer.com/resources/floyd-mayweathers-defense-explained.jpg

Not saying it is or it isn't. A friend of mine posted this on another site. Thought it could be a good discussion starting point.

Not a bong sau per se but it does use bong sau like principle. I think he uses the bicep with a waist turn to subtly redirect the punch. A fighter is possessed of high skill that can pull this off. I can see the similarities. The bong sau uses the same edge but further down. But I can totally see someone using something like whats pictured in VT except turning on a vertical axis.

[Grumblegeezer]

Not a bong sau per se but it does use bong sau like principle. I think he uses the bicep with a waist turn to subtly redirect the punch. A fighter is possessed of high skill that can pull this off. I can see the similarities. The bong sau uses the same edge but further down. But I can totally see someone using something like whats pictured in VT except turning on a vertical axis.

I'd agree, not a bong-sau exactly, but sharing certain obvious traits. Boxing, considered over it's whole history actually shares quite a few traits with WCK. Not that they were ever related, rather it's a simple matter of convergent evolution i.e. similar forms emerging in response to similar environmental pressures.


I'd say this is not WCK bong sau for most of the same reasons already listed... Also, his facing is off. And, the contact point for a bong sau is not the upper arm past the elbow. It's usually either the striking point or the forearm depending on the type of bong used as well as the facing, distance, leverage point, etc.

As a matter of fact, on our lineage we do have an upper arm bong-sau or "shoulder-bong" applied with a turn aside. However, it's use is restricted to very special circumstances in which your hand is trapped down... not freely against a punch as shown here.

[imperialtaichi]

Not that they were ever related, rather it's a simple matter of convergent evolution i.e. similar forms emerging in response to similar environmental pressures.

I feel the same. Looking at the evolution of MA all over the world, the arts evolve to adapt the purpose; some for one on one fighting, some for millitary, some for gang warfare, some for large weapons on battle fields and armours, some for domestic situations etc.

And as the world changes, we will see further evolutions and extinctions.