Tan Sao against jab

[nunchuckguy]

I want to train myself to fight against kickboxers with Wing Chun.

Me and my friend practice together yesterday.

My theory is to first train to counter long range attacks and then slowly move into close range where Chi Sao moves are applicable.

The first problem I face is the fast jabs of a boxer.

I found outside Pak Sao really effective. But while using inside Tan Sao, it only works when I turn horse or else I need to use a lot of force to deflect that punch.

Any ideas?

Nunchuck Guy (http://nunchuckguy.com)

[imperialtaichi]

I found outside Pak Sao really effective. But while using inside Tan Sao, it only works when I turn horse or else I need to use a lot of force to deflect that punch.

A simple Jab is easy to deal with using Pak Sau or Tan Sau... but how would you know the opponent is throwing a simple Jab?

The Jab can be a feint, followed by combos, followed by a kick, turn into an elbow, turn into a hook, followed by a take down etc etc etc.... or it can really be a Jab!

So, how effective is the Pak Sau and the Tan Sau against the changes? Something to think about ;)

[Yoshiyahu]

i use Pak Sau, wu sau from the outside and or chain punch depending on skill level of the boxer who is throwing the jab. AS for the Tan Sau turning horse that is a slower motion. an the jab may be more than just one...


When i jab i do so to find openings. I will jab two three to five times before throwing a left cross or hook. If you turn your tan to intercept my jab I will quickly switch to few hooks. Because now you have turned your center away. ne way just my opinion!



I want to train myself to fight against kickboxers with Wing Chun.

Me and my friend practice together yesterday.

My theory is to first train to counter long range attacks and then slowly move into close range where Chi Sao moves are applicable.

The first problem I face is the fast jabs of a boxer.

I found outside Pak Sao really effective. But while using inside Tan Sao, it only works when I turn horse or else I need to use a lot of force to deflect that punch.

Any ideas?

Nunchuck Guy (http://nunchuckguy.com)

[imperialtaichi]

The Kulo "Tiger Tail Hammer" and "Double Dragon" looks a bit like the 52 Blocks "Skull and Cross Bones", with more emphasis on controlling the opponent's elbows and more offensive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38uVH9-DCdk

I don't have a clip of the actual application, but the Sansik/Sansau complete set is here (re-post)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPkVTBGyCPM

An easier to see version (repost):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=2QJHBkyB9fc

[Yoshiyahu]

i just posted in your other thread about bong sau in boxing an made mention of 52 blocks...wow thats a conicidence you now speaking about it....




The Kulo "Tiger Tail Hammer" and "Double Dragon" looks a bit like the 52 Blocks "Skull and Cross Bones", with more emphasis on controlling the opponent's elbows and more offensive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38uVH9-DCdk

I don't have a clip of the actual application, but the Sansik/Sansau complete set is here (re-post)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPkVTBGyCPM

An easier to see version (repost):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=2QJHBkyB9fc

[imperialtaichi]

i just posted in your other thread about bong sau in boxing an made mention of 52 blocks...wow thats a conicidence you now speaking about it....

Haha, great minds think alike :cool:

[Yoshiyahu]

Haha, great minds think alike :cool:

Yes i just commented on another Post you made...interesting...Yes yes...good to have things in common with people...Yea this elbow block is common you will find 52 blocks being displayed in some black movies!!!

[wingchunIan]

I want to train myself to fight against kickboxers with Wing Chun.

Me and my friend practice together yesterday.

My theory is to first train to counter long range attacks and then slowly move into close range where Chi Sao moves are applicable.

The first problem I face is the fast jabs of a boxer.

I found outside Pak Sao really effective. But while using inside Tan Sao, it only works when I turn horse or else I need to use a lot of force to deflect that punch.

Any ideas?

Nunchuck Guy (http://nunchuckguy.com)

Use your feet.
The jab is a range finder, if you stay on the end of it you will get hit with the following shots. If he steps in and out of range you can use kicks to the lead leg to break the rythmn, but whether you intercept with kicks or arms you should be looking to close the gap stepping in on angles. As a previous poster pointed out, in reality you don't know its going to be a jab so your response has to be multifunctional. I find angling and driving forward have the highest % success rate for me, but you need to really work the footwork and be able to change direction rapidly (especially when you train with people who do MMA and use the jab to set up the shoot / change in level). Only my 10 cents

[Graham H]

I want to train myself to fight against kickboxers with Wing Chun.

Me and my friend practice together yesterday.

My theory is to first train to counter long range attacks and then slowly move into close range where Chi Sao moves are applicable.

The first problem I face is the fast jabs of a boxer.

I found outside Pak Sao really effective. But while using inside Tan Sao, it only works when I turn horse or else I need to use a lot of force to deflect that punch.

Any ideas?

Nunchuck Guy (http://nunchuckguy.com)

My opinion..............

Tan sau is NOT designed for blocking hooks as commonly thought in Wing Chun. The reason why most people struggle to make it work only proves this. Certain guys, because they have been taught that it IS for blocking hooks, start to add other stuff in which only moves even further from the original idea.

In many WC schools you see the same old BS. People throwing slow controlled hooks and the WC student pivoting and using Tan Sau to block the inside and a simultaneous punch to the center line. I think I saw this again in a video from a regular poster on here.

There are too many problems with using a Tan Sau against a hook punch. You would have to throw this action perfectly to make it work because of the oppoents elbow joint puts you in danger of still being hit. Other problems are the speed in which arcing punches are thrown and the subsequent punches that may follow. As most people just try and charge up the center or move to the outside 9 times out of 10 you will eventually get hit.

I was originally taught to use a Tan Sau to block hooks so I know the ideas. In a nutshell it's stupid thing to do! There is no time in a real fight to pivot from side to side swinging tan sau's around trying to block hooks.

Because this idea is flawed many WC sifu starting adding other centerlines and all different types of footwork to try and give this technique some effectiveness. Truth is that if you come up against anybody that can fight then you will get hit! As soon as you are put under pressure and realise that your tan sau's are not working then you will resort back to what all humans do in a time of danger and resort back to our natural behaviour. Faliling, swinging uncontrolled punches and wildly grabbing to try and not get hurt.

Wing Chun deserves bad press for these ideas amongest many other things! In my opinion most of you chaps are only adding fuel to the fire!

I havent used a Tan Sau for silly hook blocking in 5 years but do I use it all the time as, for me, its a punching idea!


Back to lurk mode! mwah

GH

[JPinAZ]

I 100% agree with graham regarding a taan defense against a hook - bad bad idea. Not enough distance between you and the arm when facing the hook with a taan as the attacker's arm can still snap/bend at the elbow and hit you.
Another issue is range to your opponent. With your shorter range taan sau (bent elbow) against the shorter range hook (bent elbow) you are a lot closer to your opponent's other hand - even if you 'step offline'. It's just simple geometry.
From a strictly technique POV, biu sau works much better against the hook.

For taan vs. jab. This works fine - as long as you are not just going for taan vs. jab :)
In WC, we don't match technique for technique (at least not in WC I train). That would be relying completely on speed and luck to win out. And since our opponent is leading the action by throwing the jab first, we will always be a step behind unless we are much much faster, which is something we can't guarantee. I say luck for reasons mentioned early - you would have to know exactly what type of attack is coming to simply taan a jab.

Besides, taan isn't a block. My understanding is you don't just 'use' taan, our jong sau turns into taan after contact is made and we feel/read the energy. Then, our shape turns into taan to disapate or spread the energy, which is what 'taan' means. It's a secondary action, which can happen very fast after that initial contact is made, which then gives us the time to absorb and redirect the attack on touch (minor footwork and facing changes might apply at this point). Matching taan vs. jab as a blocking technique relies almost completely on sight and speed alone, and our reaction times will be much slower this way than vs. reacting by touch.

Again, this is speaking mainly from a technique POV. From my lineage, HFY's box and gate theories would apply, and will change the way taan sau is used based on facing, distance and contact/leverage points.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1151660]My opinion..............

Tan sau is NOT designed for blocking hooks as commonly thought in Wing Chun. The reason why most people struggle to make it work only proves this. Certain guys, because they have been taught that it IS for blocking hooks, start to add other stuff in which only moves even further from the original idea.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Agree- !!
Neither can a tan sau by itself stop a fast jab. Lots of folks don't doa good tan and don't know when to do a tan.

joy

[Yoshiyahu]

Sorry buddy the thread is not about blocking Hooks but its about defending against the jab!!!!




My opinion..............

Tan sau is NOT designed for blocking hooks as commonly thought in Wing Chun. The reason why most people struggle to make it work only proves this. Certain guys, because they have been taught that it IS for blocking hooks, start to add other stuff in which only moves even further from the original idea.

In many WC schools you see the same old BS. People throwing slow controlled hooks and the WC student pivoting and using Tan Sau to block the inside and a simultaneous punch to the center line. I think I saw this again in a video from a regular poster on here.

There are too many problems with using a Tan Sau against a hook punch. You would have to throw this action perfectly to make it work because of the oppoents elbow joint puts you in danger of still being hit. Other problems are the speed in which arcing punches are thrown and the subsequent punches that may follow. As most people just try and charge up the center or move to the outside 9 times out of 10 you will eventually get hit.

I was originally taught to use a Tan Sau to block hooks so I know the ideas. In a nutshell it's stupid thing to do! There is no time in a real fight to pivot from side to side swinging tan sau's around trying to block hooks.

Because this idea is flawed many WC sifu starting adding other centerlines and all different types of footwork to try and give this technique some effectiveness. Truth is that if you come up against anybody that can fight then you will get hit! As soon as you are put under pressure and realise that your tan sau's are not working then you will resort back to what all humans do in a time of danger and resort back to our natural behaviour. Faliling, swinging uncontrolled punches and wildly grabbing to try and not get hurt.

Wing Chun deserves bad press for these ideas amongest many other things! In my opinion most of you chaps are only adding fuel to the fire!

I havent used a Tan Sau for silly hook blocking in 5 years but do I use it all the time as, for me, its a punching idea!


Back to lurk mode! mwah

GH

[YouKnowWho]

Sorry buddy the thread is not about blocking Hooks but its about defending against the jab!!!!
The TCMA "挂(Gua) - comb hair" should be the best defense to be used againt the jab. In boxing, it's called "crazy monkey". After a left Gua to deflect a right jab, and a right Gua to deflect a left jab, both of your arms are inside of your opponnet's arms. You can then enter your opponent's front door (centerline).

[EternalSpring]

I want to train myself to fight against kickboxers with Wing Chun.

Me and my friend practice together yesterday.

My theory is to first train to counter long range attacks and then slowly move into close range where Chi Sao moves are applicable.

The first problem I face is the fast jabs of a boxer.

I found outside Pak Sao really effective. But while using inside Tan Sao, it only works when I turn horse or else I need to use a lot of force to deflect that punch.

Any ideas?

Nunchuck Guy (http://nunchuckguy.com)

tbh, I'd take everything that's said with a grain of salt. I believe there's really no way to get good answers unless you just keep at least sparring with someone else. There's just too many variables that can be added to a jab. A jab can really mean anything. Is it a quick jab for the purpose of opening your guard? A stronger jab meant to set the way for a cross? A pivoting jab which will change your opponents position? A jab while retreating (which would make a pak sao useless unless you can move in really well) A jab at strange unorthodox angles? Several jabs thrown with varying speed and power?

outside pak is good, i def wouldn't deny that, but it wouldn't be good in all the situations i mentioned above + others that may arise. personally, i find that the best thing to train when sparring a kickboxer or boxer is using strong footwork. Being able to advance, retreat, pivot, etc will put you in places where you'll figure out which defense to use. Sometimes, you can deal with punches coming your way just by keeping jong sao up. In regards to pak, from my own experience I find that pak alone merely blocks a punch and sets up nothing. a pak-tan or pak-jong, or pak-pak+da clears the way pretty well, but that's just for me.

just my 2c

[Eric_H]

If you're just looking for tools, Gahn sao works reasonably well from the outside, Tiu Sao from the inside. There's a lot of variables in footwork, strategy and engagement though which makes it very difficult to give you a "Just do X" type of answer. I'm with the other folks in saying that you should keep sparring an experimenting and you'll eventually figure it out.

I should also say these type of questions are what HFY Kiu Sao answers -"how do you form a proper engagement based on changing circumstances?" It shortcuts the "figuring out" stage significantly.

[JPinAZ]

I agree with just about everything EternalSpring said above. There are a lot of different ways to jab, and WC has many ways to deal with them. Sparring will help you figure this out for sure! My previous post was just in regards to using only taan sau against a jab. There are many more 'tools' that can be used :)

IMO, one of the best deffences against most punches is to start with a jong sau, as ES mention. If the jong works (with or without footwork as needed), then you don't need anything else. If it needs to 'change' to something else, at least you have your major gate & reference point/leverage established to work from.

[Phil Redmond]

A simple Jab is easy to deal with using Pak Sau or Tan Sau... but how would you know the opponent is throwing a simple Jab?

The Jab can be a feint, followed by combos, followed by a kick, turn into an elbow, turn into a hook, followed by a take down etc etc etc.... or it can really be a Jab!

So, how effective is the Pak Sau and the Tan Sau against the changes? Something to think about ;) You have a valid point. But you can train to determine the line of attack of the jab.

[Phil Redmond]

My opinion..............

Tan sau is NOT designed for blocking hooks as commonly thought in Wing Chun. The reason why most people struggle to make it work only proves this. Certain guys, because they have been taught that it IS for blocking hooks, start to add other stuff in which only moves even further from the original idea.

In many WC schools you see the same old BS. People throwing slow controlled hooks and the WC student pivoting and using Tan Sau to block the inside and a simultaneous punch to the center line. I think I saw this again in a video from a regular poster on here.

There are too many problems with using a Tan Sau against a hook punch. You would have to throw this action perfectly to make it work because of the oppoents elbow joint puts you in danger of still being hit. Other problems are the speed in which arcing punches are thrown and the subsequent punches that may follow. As most people just try and charge up the center or move to the outside 9 times out of 10 you will eventually get hit.

I was originally taught to use a Tan Sau to block hooks so I know the ideas. In a nutshell it's stupid thing to do! There is no time in a real fight to pivot from side to side swinging tan sau's around trying to block hooks.

Because this idea is flawed many WC sifu starting adding other centerlines and all different types of footwork to try and give this technique some effectiveness. Truth is that if you come up against anybody that can fight then you will get hit! As soon as you are put under pressure and realise that your tan sau's are not working then you will resort back to what all humans do in a time of danger and resort back to our natural behaviour. Faliling, swinging uncontrolled punches and wildly grabbing to try and not get hurt.

Wing Chun deserves bad press for these ideas amongest many other things! In my opinion most of you chaps are only adding fuel to the fire!

I havent used a Tan Sau for silly hook blocking in 5 years but do I use it all the time as, for me, its a punching idea!


Back to lurk mode! mwah

GH
A hook is too tight to block anyway. Especially with a Tan.

[Yoshiyahu]

Pak Sau and Wu Sau are best for fast Jabs!

[Faruq]

I want to train myself to fight against kickboxers with Wing Chun.

Me and my friend practice together yesterday.

My theory is to first train to counter long range attacks and then slowly move into close range where Chi Sao moves are applicable.

The first problem I face is the fast jabs of a boxer.

I found outside Pak Sao really effective. But while using inside Tan Sao, it only works when I turn horse or else I need to use a lot of force to deflect that punch.

Any ideas?

Nunchuck Guy (http://nunchuckguy.com)

I really like Steve Lee Swift's Wing Chun Fighter III for this scenario.

[nunchuckguy]

A simple Jab is easy to deal with using Pak Sau or Tan Sau... but how would you know the opponent is throwing a simple Jab?

The Jab can be a feint, followed by combos, followed by a kick, turn into an elbow, turn into a hook, followed by a take down etc etc etc.... or it can really be a Jab!

So, how effective is the Pak Sau and the Tan Sau against the changes? Something to think about ;)

Wow, that's really inspiring. So I need to think about what would be happening next...

ok, so that's way I found outside blocks to work better because I'll be out of his centerline after an outside Pak or Taan, while I found inside blocks to be harder to apply because I always got hit by the followups.

So if I want to go inside gate moves, I must either thrust horse and attack or be prepared for the other hand.

Other problems I faced are double jabs and combos like jab-hook (same hand).
Any advice on those situations?

Nunchuck Guy (http://nunchuckguy.com)

[nunchuckguy]

Use your feet.
The jab is a range finder, if you stay on the end of it you will get hit with the following shots. If he steps in and out of range you can use kicks to the lead leg to break the rythmn, but whether you intercept with kicks or arms you should be looking to close the gap stepping in on angles. As a previous poster pointed out, in reality you don't know its going to be a jab so your response has to be multifunctional. I find angling and driving forward have the highest % success rate for me, but you need to really work the footwork and be able to change direction rapidly (especially when you train with people who do MMA and use the jab to set up the shoot / change in level). Only my 10 cents

Thanks for that, man.

I also find footwork to be crucial in dealing with those situations. One strategy me and my friend was trying is to use the Mun Sao as a measurement to keep yourself just outside of the jab range and as soon as the series of punches end, trust horse forward with a Kwun Sao to control opponent's hands (as taught by sifu Duncan Leung).

My problem is that I can't thrust forward quickly enough. I think that's because I put my body weight on heels instead of toes.

[nunchuckguy]

My opinion..............

Tan sau is NOT designed for blocking hooks as commonly thought in Wing Chun. The reason why most people struggle to make it work only proves this. Certain guys, because they have been taught that it IS for blocking hooks, start to add other stuff in which only moves even further from the original idea.

GH


Can you share how you defend a hook?

[Graham H]

Sorry buddy the thread is not about blocking Hooks but its about defending against the jab!!!!

Actually it is about defending a jab with Tan Sau which is absolutely absurd. As absurd as trying to block any punch with a Tan Sau!

GH

[Graham H]

Can you share how you defend a hook?

How can I know until you try and hit me with one!? :rolleyes:

GH

[wingchunIan]

Thanks for that, man.

I also find footwork to be crucial in dealing with those situations. One strategy me and my friend was trying is to use the Mun Sao as a measurement to keep yourself just outside of the jab range and as soon as the series of punches end, trust horse forward with a Kwun Sao to control opponent's hands (as taught by sifu Duncan Leung).

My problem is that I can't thrust forward quickly enough. I think that's because I put my body weight on heels instead of toes.

Some comments if they're helpful would be, 1) don't wait for the puches to stop before moving, get in as soon as you detect the punch being thrown (angle and have your hands up obviously or you'll walk onto the end of the jab / hook / whatever). 2) weighting your heels doesn't necessarily slow you down if you practice your footwork in an explosive fashion 3) don't look for classical perfection in your footwork, when you train you overtrain extreme positions, when you apply you can relax them. 4) in any situation if the solution you have doesn't work there are always two possibilities, firstly it may be the wrong solution to the problem or secondly it may be the optimal solution but your execution is lacking. Sometimes it isn't another solution thats needed its just more training to improve what you are already doing.

As we've never met I have no way to guage your experience etc so sorry if this seems a bit like teaching granny to suck eggs.

[wingchunIan]

A hook is too tight to block anyway. Especially with a Tan.

Would be genuinely interested to hear your view on how to defend hooks Phil.

[Graham H]

Some comments if they're helpful would be, 1) don't wait for the puches to stop before moving, get in as soon as you detect the punch being thrown (angle and have your hands up obviously or you'll walk onto the end of the jab / hook / whatever). 2) weighting your heels doesn't necessarily slow you down if you practice your footwork in an explosive fashion 3) don't look for classical perfection in your footwork, when you train you overtrain extreme positions, when you apply you can relax them. 4) in any situation if the solution you have doesn't work there are always two possibilities, firstly it may be the wrong solution to the problem or secondly it may be the optimal solution but your execution is lacking. Sometimes it isn't another solution thats needed its just more training to improve what you are already doing.

As we've never met I have no way to guage your experience etc so sorry if this seems a bit like teaching granny to suck eggs.

A well thought out and logical answer! ;)

If more people on this forum had the same ideas then the world would be a better place IMO.

GH

[imperialtaichi]

Other problems I faced are double jabs and combos like jab-hook (same hand).
Any advice on those situations?

My opinion only... force the opponent to deal with you, instead you dealing with him.

(in the words of Sifu Wan Kam Leung of Practical Wing Chun HK)
Low level Martial Arts: just strike, or just defend.
Medium level MA: defend then strike 先消後打
High level MA: simultaneous defend and strike 連消帶打
Top level MA: attack then defend 先打後消

As soon as the opponent twitches, don't wait for the jab to surface, attack him (while covering his fist, elbows etc, of course). Then you don't need to deal with his jab/hook/combo to begin with.

[Phil Redmond]

Would be genuinely interested to hear your view on how to defend hooks Phil.
Treat a tight hook like an elbow. I'm replying from me cell at the present and it'll take too long for me to give a proper reply. Maybe I'll make a short clip. Btw, please excuse typos if any. Auto correct is in control. Lol

[Phil Redmond]

My opinion only... force the opponent to deal with you, instead you dealing with him.

(in the words of Sifu Wan Kam Leung of Practical Wing Chun HK)
Low level Martial Arts: just strike, or just defend.
Medium level MA: defend then strike 先消後打
High level MA: simultaneous defend and strike 連消帶打
Top level MA: attack then defend 先打後消

As soon as the opponent twitches, don't wait for the jab to surface, attack him (while covering his fist, elbows etc, of course). Then you don't need to deal with his jab/hook/combo to begin with.

I agree with you but Top level MA can get you a legal case.

[Graham H]

Treat a tight hook like an elbow. I'm replying from me cell at the present and it'll take too long for me to give a proper reply. Maybe I'll make a short clip. Btw, please excuse typos if any. Auto correct is in control. Lol

How will you (gen) know what to do??? There is no solid answer and there are too many factors to consider that could change ones whole perspective!

Whats the point in making a clip unless you get one of your training partners to rip into you with no holding back and should he throw an arcing punch within the onslaught, at best, you can say "well that's how I dealt with it that time."

Have any of you guys actually had a proper fight? :confused:

Ving Tsun is not kick boxing! We don't have katas where one action is in response to a certain attack!

WSL said that if for 95% of the time if you are attacking somebody then for 95% of the time they must be defending themselves which makes it difficult to attack back. This is a conceptual idea. What we learn in the training hall should give us the tools to improve our chances in a fight but to say that I would move this way or that way or use this action or that action against an opponent that may or may not throw a hook is f***ing ridiculous! :mad:

GH

[CFT]

What's wrong with training against semi-isolated techniques? The hook could come out at above-average regularity (for training purposes) amidst more general attacks?

If we followed your hard-line approach you would only rarely train your kicks, since it is "common sense" we keep our feet on the ground.

[nunchuckguy]

...What we learn in the training hall should give us the tools to improve our chances in a fight ...

GH

So would you mind sharing what tools you use?
And if I ask what tools you would possibly use IN CASE the opponent throw a jab/hook/elbow, etc., would that be a valid question to you?

[k gledhill]

WSL put it nicely in this short article :

WSL, REAL BATTLES (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Ving-Tsun-USA/201018736610508#!/permalink.php?story_fbid=293962480649466&id=201018736610508)

[Phil Redmond]

......
Have any of you guys actually had a proper fight? :confused:
GH
Of course.

[Phil Redmond]

........

Whats the point in making a clip......

GH
It would be a clip of what works for me and others. And yes, against someone trying to wreck you.

[Graham H]

What's wrong with training against semi-isolated techniques? The hook could come out at above-average regularity (for training purposes) amidst more general attacks?

If we followed your hard-line approach you would only rarely train your kicks, since it is "common sense" we keep our feet on the ground.

For a beginner yes! We need these isolated techniques at the start to get the student used to certain actions, reponses and instill courage. Once one is able to engage in gor sau/sparring then then everything is thrown together. How one responds in sparring or a real fight cannot be chrystalized! Up until this point its hard work, repetition and co-operation between two like minded training partners.

You wouldn't drill a tan sau against a linear punch unless your idea of Wing Chun is extremely flawed!

GH

[Graham H]

It would be a clip of what works for me and others. And yes, against someone trying to wreck you.

Can't wait!


G

[Phil Redmond]

Can't wait!


G
Wow, no :mad: in your reply. There IS hope. . . .lol

[trubblman]

I want to train myself to fight against kickboxers with Wing Chun.

Me and my friend practice together yesterday.

My theory is to first train to counter long range attacks and then slowly move into close range where Chi Sao moves are applicable.

The first problem I face is the fast jabs of a boxer.

I found outside Pak Sao really effective. But while using inside Tan Sao, it only works when I turn horse or else I need to use a lot of force to deflect that punch.

Any ideas?

Nunchuck Guy (http://nunchuckguy.com)

I dont get it. Do you mean tan sau on inner gate? If so arent u already close range?

[EternalSpring]

oh, and dont forget to do things in combinations. I dont know if everyone would agree with this but it's worked for me so far. It's one of the first things to learn when boxing as well, that throwing single punches consistently is a pretty bad idea. Either youre throwing combos or setting up a combo.

In the same sense, if you're opponent is decent, he'll be working in combos too and most definitely will follow up his first punch that is blocked. That's why I like to default to pak-da, pak-jong, pak-tan, type of movements, well because I'm somewhat physically weak compared to most people but also because the combinations of movements either help me defend against combos as a defense or they can work offensively by creating a better opening.

This is also probably another noob move but whenever I feel my sparring partner is moving a lot I tend to consistently switch up my jong and footwork. Ive never actually asked my opponent how i feel about this but I assumed that it ruins their positioning because at one point they may move outside my guard and a simply switch of which had is forward in my job totally changes that positioning.

Note that I myself am not pro at sparring/fighting nor would i call myself experienced. But I think of these as very basic things that help me, and while they aren't the "counter x with y" type of answers (which dont even really exist imo), they're still decent ways to deal with an opponent and his jab (and possibly other stuff)

just my 2c

[anerlich]

Whats the point in making a clip unless you get one of your training partners to rip into you with no holding back

I'd like to see P Bayer do that rather than the chi sao stuff he does in your and Kev's usual clips.

[Phil Redmond]

I'd like to see P Bayer do that rather than the chi sao stuff he does in your and Kev's usual clips.
Oh no you di'int: lol

[Phil Redmond]

I know Andrew knows what I'm talking about. It's not magic and it requires some eye training, right Andrew? I use it all the time and I know your Sifu taught you. He's a legend in many people's eyes including mine though he's not known by many.

[anerlich]

Ving Tsun is not kick boxing!

That's what's wrong with it.:p

[anerlich]

If you're not sure, get someone to put gloves on and throw hooks at you. You'll find out pretty quick what does and doesn't work.

FWIW, I'd want to get either right inside the hook, which puts me in clinch range, or get way away from it. Staying in range and trying to block and exchange will earn you a ticket to dreamland.

Either that or get your fist in the guy's face so fast and often that he ain't got time to set up his hooks.

Or shoot him.

[Phil Redmond]

That's what's wrong with it.:p
Another no brainer. You're on a roll tonight. Well, at least in this part of the planet..lol

[imperialtaichi]

If you're not sure, get someone to put gloves on and throw hooks at you. You'll find out pretty quick what does and doesn't work.

Exactly Bro. The best way to learn how to deal with something IS to deal with it. Experiment, try different things, discussions help us brainstorm.

[Phil Redmond]

Exactly Bro. The best way to learn how to deal with something IS to deal with it. Experiment, try different things, discussions help us brainstorm.
Yes, because WC is an innovative art.

[Phil Redmond]

That's what's wrong with it.:p
When people say our WC looks like kickboxing I go YES!!!

[Yoshiyahu]

The Tan Sau was not designed with the boxing hook in mind!

The tan sau connecting with the forearm or wrist was design for choy li fut or hung gar swinging blow for the inside. this blow after being intercepted with a bil gee to deflect the power is then dispersed downward with the tan sau!

[Phil Redmond]

The Tan Sau was not designed with the boxing hook in mind!

The tan sau connecting with the forearm or wrist was design for choy li fut or hung gar swinging blow for the inside. this blow after being intercepted with a bil gee to deflect the power is then dispersed downward with the tan sau!
Tan is more than that. But no, a tan won't get inside a hook. A round punch maybe.

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6CdH6xHcgo&feature=share

[Yoshiyahu]

Tan is more than that. But no, a tan won't get inside a hook. A round punch maybe.

i agree...but what im stating is When WC was originally desgined...western boxing was not what they had in mind. The forms and shapes were originally developed to handle the fighting styles chinese dealt with!

[imperialtaichi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6CdH6xHcgo&feature=share

Excellent clip.

That is exactly the reason why I've been saying we need to break things down to the simplest denominator. We cannot predict what the opponent is going to do, and how he is going to do in.

In KL22, we glance at a number of anatomical landmarks. These points are hubs of movements as well as control points. As soon as any of these points twitches, we strike the point, which stops the opponent before he can execute the technique before the half way point.

We have to keep training until it becomes habitual and no conscious effort is involved. The effect is that once we are switched on (we don't want to be switched on all the time for obvious reasons), even if we are talking to someone, as soon as those points twitches, we strike (reflex action) and start controlling the opponent.

We don't play according to the opponent. We make the opponent play on our terms.

敵不動，我不動。敵未動，我先動。

[Graham H]

I'd like to see P Bayer do that rather than the chi sao stuff he does in your and Kev's usual clips.

Dude if you want to get an idea of Philipp fighting outside of chi sau then go see him!

I always say that to people on here and as yet only one guy has gone! He has since left the William Cheung lineage and joined ours. Maybe the same would happen to you!

I only logged on too see Phil's clip but I can't see it yet.

For Phil...........................:mad:

G:D

[Graham H]

The Tan Sau was not designed with the boxing hook in mind!

The tan sau connecting with the forearm or wrist was design for choy li fut or hung gar swinging blow for the inside. this blow after being intercepted with a bil gee to deflect the power is then dispersed downward with the tan sau!

How do you know that? You must be 200 years old to know that! Your idea of Tan Sau is completely wrong but as you can only see as far as the end of your nose you will deny it at every turn!

Better to say thats how YOU view Tan Sau not how IT is!;)

G

[Phil Redmond]

Dude if you want to get an idea of Philipp fighting outside of chi sau then go see him!

I always say that to people on here and as yet only one guy has gone! He has since left the William Cheung lineage and joined ours. Maybe the same would happen to you!

I only logged on too see Phil's clip but I can't see it yet.

For Phil...........................:mad:

G:D
I can't see Andrew leaving what he's doing now. He's got the bast of both worlds. As to my clip. I'll get around to it. Right now I have days off from work and I'm just chillin' :D

[JPinAZ]

The Tan Sau was not designed with the boxing hook in mind!

The tan sau connecting with the forearm or wrist was design for choy li fut or hung gar swinging blow for the inside. this blow after being intercepted with a bil gee to deflect the power is then dispersed downward with the tan sau!

Tan sau wasn't 'designed for' any one specific attack or style of fighter. This is more of a beginner's technique level thinking. Tan sau is usually a secondary spreading action that another tool turns into. IMO, thinking Tan Sau is a block is missing the whole point of WCK's idea of conceptual fighting.

Could you explain what a 'bil jee' is and how you intercept with one? This doesn't make sense to me.

[Phil Redmond]

i agree...but what im stating is When WC was originally desgined...western boxing was not what they had in mind. The forms and shapes were originally developed to handle the fighting styles chinese dealt with!
Yep, that's the case. It also why WC has to evolve to deal with styles that weren't known back then.

[Yoshiyahu]

Tan sau wasn't 'designed for' any one specific attack or style of fighter. This is more of a beginner's technique level thinking. Tan sau is usually a secondary spreading action that another tool turns into. IMO, thinking Tan Sau is a block is missing the whole point of WCK's idea of conceptual fighting.


Could you explain what a 'bil jee' is and how you intercept with one? This doesn't make sense to me.

very good point...But looking at it from actually testing it out with different styles. You find certain punches not hooks of course manage quite well with the tan sau. Find someone who does hung gar or choy li fut...have them throw some punches at you first the way they would from their forms. An then try an spar with them using classic techniques from their system. Figure out what techniques work best with their hand techniques. The energies of each system is much different an alien to westernize fighting styles...But hey your right in this day in age using tan sau as intial blocking technique is only the beginning. I believe you meaning to say that intercepting first with lets say a bil sau could lead way to tan sau. In other words Bil Tan or Bong Tan. Tan is second action in the sequence which disperses the force of an attack. But in real fighting or sparring the opponent is going to be striking with the other hand right away so you dont always have the comfort of using your Tan depending on what style of fighting he is using! imho of course.

Bil Gee is thrusting fingers...Bil Sau is thrusting hand. I utilize bil sau to intercept hard hooks. Since bil sau is posistioning of the elbow is more supported by structure it is better for a inside deflection. if i want to deflect with Tan Sau i utilize it for the outside to turn force off or turn off his centerline. I typically wont use tan sau on the inner gate with round or hook punches. Only as a secondary technique inside the gate...outside or from the flank tan sau can be used alot easier because the vector of your opponents force is going forward and not so much weighing in on you from the outside collasping you!


How do you know that? You must be 200 years old to know that! Your idea of Tan Sau is completely wrong but as you can only see as far as the end of your nose you will deny it at every turn!

Better to say thats how YOU view Tan Sau not how IT is!;)

G

Okay thanks for your opinion!


Yep, that's the case. It also why WC has to evolve to deal with styles that weren't known back then.

So true..i agree!

[wingchunIan]

saying that boxing wasn't around when wing chun was developed is mute. Everyone has two arms and two legs etc the system is designed to work whatever the opponent does

[k gledhill]

saying that boxing wasn't around when wing chun was developed is mute. Everyone has two arms and two legs etc the system is designed to work whatever the opponent does

Exactly, good observation.

[Yoshiyahu]

saying that boxing wasn't around when wing chun was developed is mute. Everyone has two arms and two legs etc the system is designed to work whatever the opponent does

Well even if it was around back then...Western boxing back then was not well known in China...especially mainland...it wasnt the majority or widespread back then when WC was intially devised. Wing Chun has to evolved to be able to adapt to what ever New fighting style comes on the horizon. But today WC thats out there an its applications have Boxing in mind. It has adapted to Boxing...but in its inception boxing was not apart of the applications!!! One has to innovate the system to make it all inclusive!

The system is just a system...The system it self has limitations. You can innovate above and beyond the system. Your Gung Fu is not limited to just stand up fighting...its not limited to ground fighting...your system of gung fu is you!

[anerlich]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing

Depending on your POV, western boxing of some sort has been around for more than 7000 years, Roman times, or the 16th century.

It's a bit of a stretch to say that exposure to Western boxing was impossible around the times WC was allegedly developed. I can accept that Western Boxers were not the principal enemies the WC original gangstas were concerned with.

I have heard it said that CLF was developed to combat WC, rather than the reverse.

[anerlich]

Dude if you want to get an idea of Philipp fighting outside of chi sau then go see him!

I always say that to people on here and as yet only one guy has gone! He has since left the William Cheung lineage and joined ours. Maybe the same would happen to you!

Maybe the reluctance of people to take up your advice has something to do with your winning communication style.

That and the fact that I'm in AUS , he's in Germany, and his accomplishments at chi sao which is all that there is to see on vid, aren't skills I see it being worth travelling the planet to learn when I can't really see anything a lot better than what I've got to work with here as far as my MA aspirations are concerned.

You're the one demanding video evidence from Phil that your guy doesn't provide.

One guy does not a statistical sample make. And he's entitled to one instance of poor judgement.

Maybe you could come and visit Rick Spain's school. Only way to be sure ...


I always say that to people on here

Yeah, you do. Over and over and over. Saying it loud, obnoxiously, and often don't make it right.

[Phil Redmond]

saying that boxing wasn't around when wing chun was developed is mute. Everyone has two arms and two legs etc the system is designed to work whatever the opponent does
Sadly that's what WC people love to believe. ;)

[Phil Redmond]

Exactly, good observation.
To think that one martial art covers all aspects of fighting is delusional at least.

[Phil Redmond]

In the PBS video about Jack Johnson is was said that he was one of first to stick and move, slip and dodge. When he fought that way people talked trash about him because he didn't stand in front of an opponent and slug it out. Boxing has evolved.

[k gledhill]

To think that one martial art covers all aspects of fighting is delusional at least.

Thats not what I was implying, WCian is speaking about VT and its approach to combat .

[Graham H]

Maybe the reluctance of people to take up your advice has something to do with your winning communication style.

Whatever girlfriend!:rolleyes::p


That and the fact that I'm in AUS , he's in Germany, and his accomplishments at chi sao which is all that there is to see on vid, aren't skills I see it being worth travelling the planet to learn when I can't really see anything a lot better than what I've got to work with here as far as my MA aspirations are concerned.

Ahh that old chestnut. Well some of us are different. I had the same opinions as you so I got off my arse and travelled so I could be sure. As I have said a million times I was ready to give up Ving Tsun. PB was my last try and I went there thinking it will be just another guy full of hot air and stories of WSL. I was very very wrong!


You're the one demanding video evidence from Phil that your guy doesn't provide.

BS!


One guy does not a statistical sample make. And he's entitled to one instance of poor judgement.

Speak English ffs!


Maybe you could come and visit Rick Spain's school. Only way to be sure ...

Rick Spain? Are you joking? I have no desire to travel anymore. I found what I was looking for. To tell you the truth I wouldn't have even bothered with PB if he was any further away than he is from me. If I hadn't have gone I would still be talking the same sh1t as most of the guys on this forum. You only have to trawl through the old VTAA and HK forums and you will see my posts are the same as what many people write about Ving Tsun especially on here.


Yeah, you do. Over and over and over. Saying it loud, obnoxiously, and often don't make it right.

You don't even know me so stop making stupid assumptions based on things you haven't got a clue about!

YouTube is a rubbish medium to express Ving Tsun but Phil was going to show how he would use a Tan Sau in an uncontrolled enviroment so I want to see it as I don't think it works.

Simple!

The End!

GH

[GlennR]

Whatever girlfriend!:rolleyes::p

Evening Princess!




Ahh that old chestnut. Well some of us are different. I had the same opinions as you so I got off my arse and travelled so I could be sure. As I have said a million times I was ready to give up Ving Tsun. PB was my last try and I went there thinking it will be just another guy full of hot air and stories of WSL. I was very very wrong!

You guys get a flight to Europe for 10 pound or something like that. AND its a few hours away. Have a look at an Atlas G, Australia is a long way...
Having said that, i havent seen anything that special from the PB clips to encourage a round the world trip




Speak English ffs!

He did... read english FFS ;)




Rick Spain? Are you joking? I have no desire to travel anymore. I found what I was looking for. To tell you the truth I wouldn't have even bothered with PB if he was any further away than he is from me. If I hadn't have gone I would still be talking the same sh1t as most of the guys on this forum. You only have to trawl through the old VTAA and HK forums and you will see my posts are the same as what many people write about Ving Tsun especially on here.

Yeh, why would you want to learn WC from a guy with a legitimate fight record.



You don't even know me so stop making stupid assumptions based on things you haven't got a clue about!


Relax G................ relax....


YouTube is a rubbish medium to express Ving Tsun but Phil was going to show how he would use a Tan Sau in an uncontrolled enviroment so I want to see it as I don't think it works.

And im sure Phil will (as he always does) when he gets a chance....... relax!!


Simple!

Yes, you are


The End!

Happy New Year G!!!! ;)

[wingchunIan]

Sadly that's what WC people love to believe. ;)

If your martial art has techniques that are designed to be used against this martial art or that martial art then you better develop your psychic ability or hope that your opponent will always be obliging enough to wear a nice T shirt telling you what style they do.:p
The Wing Chun I study deals with attacks and threats, lines of force and movement, not specific techniques. You choose your response based upon the line and height of the attack, and the range to the opponent - no other information is relevant until after contact is made. In a real situation (and by real I mean no gloves, no ref and no mat where anything goes) you don't have time to find out what techique the opponent is throwing or what style he might or might not have studied. The Wing Chun shapes are designed to work against any angle or direction of strike, the only limitation is the practitioner's ability to select the correct tool for the job and to use them.

Can only speak from personal experience but I'm a WC person and its worked for me everytime so far.

[Graham H]

Evening Princess!

oooooooo hello poppet! How's your arse for spots? :p


You guys get a flight to Europe for 10 pound or something like that. AND its a few hours away. Have a look at an Atlas G, Australia is a long way...
Having said that, i havent seen anything that special from the PB clips to encourage a round the world trip

I agree but like I said, don't make judgments based on video clips is all!


He did... read english FFS ;)

I did, I can, I shall..........still nonsense!


Yeh, why would you want to learn WC from a guy with a legitimate fight record.

If legitimate fight records are what make good teachers then half of the planets MA instructors would be redundant.



Relax G................ relax....

Deep breaths



And im sure Phil will (as he always does) when he gets a chance....... relax!!

I've no doubt!



Happy New Year G!!!! ;)

Happy New Year sugar t1ts! xx

G

[Graham H]

If your martial art has techniques that are designed to be used against this martial art or that martial art then you better develop your psychic ability or hope that your opponent will always be obliging enough to wear a nice T shirt telling you what style they do.:p
The Wing Chun I study deals with attacks and threats, lines of force and movement, not specific techniques. You choose your response based upon the line and height of the attack, and the range to the opponent - no other information is relevant until after contact is made. In a real situation (and by real I mean no gloves, no ref and no mat where anything goes) you don't have time to find out what techique the opponent is throwing or what style he might or might not have studied. The Wing Chun shapes are designed to work against any angle or direction of strike, the only limitation is the practitioner's ability to select the correct tool for the job and to use them.

Can only speak from personal experience but I'm a WC person and its worked for me everytime so far.

Another good post Ian but I hope that you say "make contact" you mean engage an opponent and not about trying to make arms contact then stick to them like most WC fools! ;)

GH

[Graham H]

I like David Petersons analogy that in chi sau we are trying to break contact not make contact. We are learning what do if obsticles are met so we can always find a clear and free line for the punching and NOT to go looking for the arms in order to make contact, stick to them and manipulate them. ;)

GH

[k gledhill]

I like David Petersons analogy that in chi sau we are trying to break contact not make contact. We are learning what do if obsticles are met so we can always find a clear and free line for the punching and NOT to go looking for the arms in order to make contact, stick to them and manipulate them. ;)

GH

Ironic the common MIS-interpretation of chi-sao leads so many astray...

[wingchunIan]

Another good post Ian but I hope that you say "make contact" you mean engage an opponent and not about trying to make arms contact then stick to them like most WC fools! ;)

GH

Can't work out how to multi quote:( so I picked your first post to respond to Graham. By contact I mean either fist to face etc or if something gets in the way then its an arm or leg to whatever. Having made the response to the original attack, once contact is made it presents information that is then used to determine the next reaction (and I do mean reaction and not thought through product of analysis) at this point I go back to my previous post in that if contact is made IME there isn't time to work out what technique it was / might be, you simply have to respond to the forces you feel on your arm / leg etc and either remove the blockage or flow round it.

Wrt to chi sau the above is where I see the benefits of the exercise. I don't strictly agree with the comment of seeking to break contact but I do strongly agree that chasing arms is a futile endeavour.

[Graham H]

Can't work out how to multi quote:( so I picked your first post to respond to Graham. By contact I mean either fist to face etc or if something gets in the way then its an arm or leg to whatever. Having made the response to the original attack, once contact is made it presents information that is then used to determine the next reaction (and I do mean reaction and not thought through product of analysis) at this point I go back to my previous post in that if contact is made IME there isn't time to work out what technique it was / might be, you simply have to respond to the forces you feel on your arm / leg etc and either remove the blockage or flow round it.

Wrt to chi sau the above is where I see the benefits of the exercise. I don't strictly agree with the comment of seeking to break contact but I do strongly agree that chasing arms is a futile endeavour.

Ok I agree with 95% of what you say apart from the "feeling the forces on your arm" bit. There is no time in fighting for this. I used to have this idea as well but in the WSL lineage I was shown the error in that thinking...................literally!

In my lineage one of the skills developed through chi sau and into sparring is to not allow contact. We learn to use the opponents punching line against them. Easily shown but hard to explain through text. There are occasions where a redirecting of an oppoents force is required such as when you are pinned against a wall or you opponent tries to take control of your limbs but mainly the only contact that is made with the opponents arm is a short, sharp shocking force in order to displace a limb and open the way for your own punch.

The "sticky" idea of chi sau has led to many many errors in approaches to training and why Wing Chun does not work very well against attacks that are not wing chunesque. In our our lineage (specifically what my teacher was taught by wong shun leung) the idea is very different than most lines!

GH

[Graham H]

Ironic the common MIS-interpretation of chi-sao leads so many astray...

astray into a different galaxy as far as I'm concerned ;) :D

G

[wingchunIan]

the only contact that is made with the opponents arm is a short, sharp shocking force in order to displace a limb and open the way for your own punch.
GH

ref the above post, if your strike is blocked how in your lineage do you determine the correct next move. As a very simple illustration only, if you throw a left punch and the opponent blocks it by moving his right arm in towards the centre connecting at the forearm surely your reaction / choice of next move would be different to if he blocked by moving his right arm from the centre to his shoulder (the difference between wax on and wax off :))? How do you judge what to do? angle to take etc?

[JPinAZ]

Ok I agree with 95% of what you say apart from the "feeling the forces on your arm" bit. There is no time in fighting for this. I used to have this idea as well but in the WSL lineage I was shown the error in that thinking...................literally!

In my lineage one of the skills developed through chi sau and into sparring is to not allow contact. We learn to use the opponents punching line against them. Easily shown but hard to explain through text. There are occasions where a redirecting of an oppoents force is required such as when you are pinned against a wall or you opponent tries to take control of your limbs but mainly the only contact that is made with the opponents arm is a short, sharp shocking force in order to displace a limb and open the way for your own punch.

The "sticky" idea of chi sau has led to many many errors in approaches to training and why Wing Chun does not work very well against attacks that are not wing chunesque. In our our lineage (specifically what my teacher was taught by wong shun leung) the idea is very different than most lines!

GH

IMO, Chi Sau strategy should be simple - "If no chi, hit" (basically, stick only if you have to, otherwise hit, where hitting is the main goal).

[Graham H]

ref the above post, if your strike is blocked how in your lineage do you determine the correct next move. As a very simple illustration only, if you throw a left punch and the opponent blocks it by moving his right arm in towards the centre connecting at the forearm surely your reaction / choice of next move would be different to if he blocked by moving his right arm from the centre to his shoulder (the difference between wax on and wax off :))? How do you judge what to do? angle to take etc?

This is my whole point. Unless you are just beginning Ving Tsun or engaging in certain drills for skill development, its not possible to use the "what if" approach!

The beauty of Ving Tsun is that it teaches us how to react in real time based on conceptual ideas. This results in being able to adapt to what your opponent is doing in all situations. We can adapt without having to trawl through 1000's of techniques in which case we can be a lot quicker in responding and correcting our structure/ attacking line should it deviate or be taken from the center. This error can be caused by your own movement or the opponents. As soon as you ask the question "what would you do if I do this" Ving Tsun starts to lose its effectivness.

In SLT we start to develop the abilty to move in certain ways start to install basic shapes and lines of thinking as a precursor to CK. In CK we learn how we should move by taking the most direct route to a stationary or moving target. In Chi Sau we learn to apply these ideas in an unrehearsed environment and through hours upon hours of repeated practice we learn how to deal with an opponent based on his attack be it linear or whatever.
How one reacts in a real fight has so many permiatations that one cannot tell until the fight happens.
Chi Sau also teaches us to press the opponent, take advantage of chances and keep his attacking lines away from our own center. Facing an opponent square on is incorrect but many apply the ideas of SLT to actual fighting when in fact SLT is very abstract. Its an exercise not a fighting form. It lays the foundations and that is it.

One fundamental idea in VT is that we learn to displace an opponents limbs and strike in one action with one arm. As we have two arms and certain x'ing lines that are taught in CK it allows us to continually press the opponent and take advantage of his mistakes using the simplest methods. This concept was highlighted when Ip Man said your opponent will show you how to hit them.

Ving Tsun is not based on set techniques.

I used to get involved in discussions that used to last for days about what would be best against a hook, an uppercut, a roundhouse kick etc etr ect. I have spent years previously trying to apply single techniques to different kinds of attacks but my whole idea on VT was turned upside down in 2 hours and all the previous 10 years did was show me how not to do Wing Chun.

So I won;t get involved in tit foir tat discussions because my idea of Wing Chun is not based on that anymore.

Sorry for going off on a tangent but I cannot give you an answer. It's not my thinking.

Wax on wax off ideas are for Danielsan for fighting against the Kubli Kan or whatever it was....." put him in a body bag yeeeeeaaaaaah! :D

GH

[Graham H]

IMO, Chi Sau strategy should be simple - "If no chi, hit" (basically, stick only if you have to, otherwise hit, where hitting is the main goal).

There is no "stickyness" in the WSLPB line! The term "chi sau" is a paradox to quote somebody I know!;)

G

[wingchunIan]

The beauty of Ving Tsun is that it teaches us how to react in real time

GH

i didn't make myself clear. I wasn't saying what would you do, I was trying to give a very simplistic illustration. To re position my post, you talk about reacting and reacting in the right way etc etc but what is your trigger? what triggers your reactions? what makes you choose (at an unconcious level) reaction A versus reaction B? The human body only has 5 ways of gaining information, 1)sight 2)taste 3) hearing 4) smell and 5) touch. So realistically in a fight you have a choice of 1, 5 or 1&5 together (I'm assuming that you aren't licking / kissing your opponent) so which do you train to rely use in your lineage?

[Wayfaring]

So would you mind sharing what tools you use?
And if I ask what tools you would possibly use IN CASE the opponent throw a jab/hook/elbow, etc., would that be a valid question to you?

All right I'll share tools / techniques. One of the variables here is going to be range.

Jab - for this discussion, we'll assume range is such that I am facing a good boxer who jabs to get distance, has dialed it in, and now has the range, shoulder rotation, and upper body lean to strike me quickly and solidly in the face (for MMA fans kind of like Nate Diaz was doing to Donald Cerrone about a hundred times).

One learning point for WCK students is to look at what other boxers do to deal with this scenario. The boxing ready stance has hands up close to the face guarding the face. Boxers will cup block a jab and punch back quickly. Or slip a jab. They will even time a jab to hit at the same time. Also, they will move their feet to an angle.

In WCK the difference in covering your face is that your hands aren't as close to your face allowing the punch to develop quite as much speed. You will intercept the jab a little ****her away from your face, and since it is a straight punch, you will do it by occupying the centerline with a jong sau arm structure. That is your WCK man sau wu sau with your hands such that you can cover your head being punched. The punch may slide off to the inside or the outside depending on the angle of the attack and the contact on the bridge or your forearm. Depending on the commitment level of the jab you may or may not be able to follow it back in to pursue. You also may have the cross coming right behind the jab, so the same bridge structure will deal with that although if that punch has a lot more mustard on it you may have to throw energy into it so your bridge isn't collapsed.

Things you can do similar to a boxer - cover your face, don't leave it open. Follow the punch in and strike immediately if there is an opening. Take advantage of the contact on the bridge to adjust your feet so you have a better angle.

Hooks - I've seen a lot of dialogue and video on hooks and WCK. IMO most of them miss one of the key fundamental elements to understanding a boxing hook. In boxing, the cross, 2, or straight punch shifts the weight forward onto the front foot. This will mean the boxer is crashing into you with weight behind that punch, and will end up a lot closer in range than you might expect. The hook is a reaction directly off of the 2, where the weight is shifted from the front foot to the back foot. In other words, the boxer is moving a little bit away from you. At the same time, the heel, hips and body rotate to get a lot of velocity on the punch. Hooks are harder to see - you are still reacting to getting crashed into and punched hard with a cross (RH for traditional stance), then a turn and movement away and you get hit by a LH hook.

For a WCK tool to deal with this, first of all you need to develop the eyes and skill to know when one is coming. Don't be a sitting duck. Next, your movement will be key. You either need to be too far away by moving back (remember the hook has the boxer shifting weight AWAY), or you need to move into it and jam it with a biu strike, or a biu da intercept / punch if you can time it. Range is the key to dealing with a hook. Be inside of it, or outside of it. No man's land will give you a sore face. If you are of a WCK family that it's blasphemy to take a step back, then pursue in off of the straight cross and continue to occupy the opponent's space.

Those are the concepts. They are easier stated than done, and require practice against the basic motions first, and make sure the bad guy opponent motions have the right form and energy. That's one of my pet peeves - people doing unrealistic retarded bad guy / uke motions and practicing against it, pretending they are developing skill. Also, start to move in free motion drills like the straight blast gym guys describe.

Last, one of the real reasons I see WCK people not able to deal with boxers jabs and hooks is that they never practice with contact. Every boxer pretty much has been hit, and a lot, so they don't flinch with contact, but continue to enact their game plan. However, if you have never been hit in the face in practice, then it is highly likely that when you get hit in the face for real you will stiffen up and revert to primal reactions rather than disciplined ones. Look at Brock Lesnar's last few fights where Shane Carwin, then Cain Velasquez took advantage of Brock's lack of punching training where he was getting hit and chased him all over the cage. That is a real phenomena, and what you train, you are prepared for. What you don't train, you are not prepared for. If you are going to fight a boxer, prepare to get hit in the face. It's OK to get hit in the face, you can actually do that and still win a fight. As a side note, rounds where you are getting hit a lot are about 10x more tiring than rounds you are not getting hit a lot. There is a natural adrenalin reaction involved.

Now I'm sure is where I'll get a lot of flack where people say they never get hit, their sifu would never be hit by a boxing punch, our strikes are more for life and death, etc. I'll ignore those comments and just encourage you to play around with those different tools for dealing with the jab and hook.

[Phil Redmond]

I like David Petersons analogy that in chi sau we are trying to break contact not make contact. We are learning what do if obsticles are met so we can always find a clear and free line for the punching and NOT to go looking for the arms in order to make contact, stick to them and manipulate them. ;)

GH
Wow, something in common. Go figure . . :eek:

[Phil Redmond]

. . .Phil was going to show how he would use a Tan Sau in an uncontrolled enviroment so I want to see it as I don't think it works. . . .GH
Miscommunication here. I was going to show you how to get an idea of what punch, kick, shoot, etc., and opponent was going to use. I never said I was going to make a clip of a Tan. But I could. ;)

[Yoshiyahu]

IMO, Chi Sau strategy should be simple - "If no chi, hit" (basically, stick only if you have to, otherwise hit, where hitting is the main goal).

Okay thats pretty cool!

[Graham H]

i didn't make myself clear. I wasn't saying what would you do, I was trying to give a very simplistic illustration. To re position my post, you talk about reacting and reacting in the right way etc etc but what is your trigger? what triggers your reactions? what makes you choose (at an unconcious level) reaction A versus reaction B? The human body only has 5 ways of gaining information, 1)sight 2)taste 3) hearing 4) smell and 5) touch. So realistically in a fight you have a choice of 1, 5 or 1&5 together (I'm assuming that you aren't licking / kissing your opponent) so which do you train to rely use in your lineage?

I don't know how many fights you have had mate but in the ones I have been in I haven't realized what's happened until its all over. Either I hit them or I get hit....what happens during is instinctive. I put faith in my training but I never over analyse it.

Fortunately for me I have never been seriously injured in a fight. They only last a short while. I could fight ok before Ving Tsun so it's never a problem........................luckily. One day it may be. Who knows?

My battles have been in pubs, clubs and carparks. I have won my fair share of competitions when I was younger but I'm not interested in THAT kind of fighting anymore.

G

[mjw]

For a jab I pan myself especially with the rear hand and hit them with a jab or straight left of my own. otherwise jun sao can work. My problem can be sticking to the speed of a trained boxers jab though I feel where it is going and I can feel the hole in the middle between their hands sometimes so I shoot a right and try to wedge into their center mass.

[wingchunIan]

I don't know how many fights you have had mate but in the ones I have been in I haven't realized what's happened until its all over. Either I hit them or I get hit....what happens during is instinctive. I put faith in my training but I never over analyse it.
G

Fair enough, each to their own. Explains the differences in the way we refer to chi sau. When I refer to contact, I am refering to that instantaneous contact when a signal is recieved and automatically acted upon without concious thought. The automatic reactions being developed over time through chi sau and other drills.

Glad to hear you've been successful in your fights so far, long may it continue.

[Yoshiyahu]

what lineage are you. We do the same thing. From contact of course...

Also what do you do if your opponent advoids contact with you an moves around alot.


Fair enough, each to their own. Explains the differences in the way we refer to chi sau. When I refer to contact, I am refering to that instantaneous contact when a signal is recieved and automatically acted upon without concious thought. The automatic reactions being developed over time through chi sau and other drills.

Glad to hear you've been successful in your fights so far, long may it continue.

[WCFighter]

Hi everyone,

My 2 cents...

I have met a few people in non-TWC wing chun lineages that have expressed their difficulty in using tan sao against a hook.

I always ask them "Why aren't you using bil sao?"

I cannot say Tan sao is my favorite technique for jabs or hooks... I can use Tan sao for these... but I feel more protected when I use a bil sao .

Relative to your center line... wu and tan protect your center line (not the side of your face), so you must really FACE the point of contact for them to work. With Bil Sao, it protects the side of your face, and the wrist does not need to be on the center line really... (its on a central line), so you can get away with not fully facing the point of contact.

If you aren't satisfied that your wing chun lineage (or sifu) is showing you
how to handle straight/round punches and straight/round kicks , then find one
that does.

I don't know all wing chun lineages in the world, but if you're only doing chi sao
and cannot stop basic punches in kicks from other styles (after 2 years of training)... there is something wrong with where you train.

I can honestly say that GM William Cheung's organization DOES teach people
how to fight/spar effectively with wing chun.


Hope this helps

[YouKnowWho]

When someone swings a rope with a rock attach to it, if you hit the middle of the rope, that rock will drop and that rope will wrap around your arm. When you use Tan Shou to block a hook punch, your opponent's hook punch arm may wrap under your shoulder. To dodge under a hook punch will be the best solution.

[Yoshiyahu]

Very good post...we are in agreement!!!

I learn the same way!



Hi everyone,

My 2 cents...

I have met a few people in non-TWC wing chun lineages that have expressed their difficulty in using tan sao against a hook.

I always ask them "Why aren't you using bil sao?"

I cannot say Tan sao is my favorite technique for jabs or hooks... I can use Tan sao for these... but I feel more protected when I use a bil sao .

Relative to your center line... wu and tan protect your center line (not the side of your face), so you must really FACE the point of contact for them to work. With Bil Sao, it protects the side of your face, and the wrist does not need to be on the center line really... (its on a central line), so you can get away with not fully facing the point of contact.

If you aren't satisfied that your wing chun lineage (or sifu) is showing you
how to handle straight/round punches and straight/round kicks , then find one
that does.

I don't know all wing chun lineages in the world, but if you're only doing chi sao
and cannot stop basic punches in kicks from other styles (after 2 years of training)... there is something wrong with where you train.

I can honestly say that GM William Cheung's organization DOES teach people
how to fight/spar effectively with wing chun.


Hope this helps

[Phil Redmond]

Hi everyone,

My 2 cents...

I have met a few people in non-TWC wing chun lineages that have expressed their difficulty in using tan sao against a hook.

I always ask them "Why aren't you using bil sao?"

I cannot say Tan sao is my favorite technique for jabs or hooks... I can use Tan sao for these... but I feel more protected when I use a bil sao .

Relative to your center line... wu and tan protect your center line (not the side of your face), so you must really FACE the point of contact for them to work. With Bil Sao, it protects the side of your face, and the wrist does not need to be on the center line really... (its on a central line), so you can get away with not fully facing the point of contact.

If you aren't satisfied that your wing chun lineage (or sifu) is showing you
how to handle straight/round punches and straight/round kicks , then find one
that does.

I don't know all wing chun lineages in the world, but if you're only doing chi sao
and cannot stop basic punches in kicks from other styles (after 2 years of training)... there is something wrong with where you train.

I can honestly say that GM William Cheung's organization DOES teach people
how to fight/spar effectively with wing chun.


Hope this helps
Biu (Bil) saos work great against "round" punches. Not against a "hook" punch. You should try not to be close enough for someone to use a hook on you anyway. That's what TWC teaches. The problem is understanding the distinction between a hook and a round punch.

[WCFighter]

Hi Master Redmond,

I like using Bil Sao for both...


By the way.. congrats on the article you published in
Kung Fu Magazine. I saw it at Sifu Ryan's school when I visited him.

Great article!

Dom

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Master Redmond,

I like using Bil Sao for both...


By the way.. congrats on the article you published in
Kung Fu Magazine. I saw it at Sifu Ryan's school when I visited him.

Great article!

Dom

Thank you. I can see using a Biu if you anticipate it and step back. I treat a tight hook like an elbow. You can't get an arm inside of an elbow strike because there's no space to do so. :)

[Yoshiyahu]

If you are not close enough to for them to do a hook are you fighting from a longer range than chi sau range?


Biu (Bil) saos work great against "round" punches. Not against a "hook" punch. You should try not to be close enough for someone to use a hook on you anyway. That's what TWC teaches. The problem is understanding the distinction between a hook and a round punch.

[Graham H]

Master Redmond,



Do me a favour! <<<<<pukes>>>>>

Probably better to call him Phil me thinks.

GH

[Graham H]

Fair enough, each to their own. Explains the differences in the way we refer to chi sau. When I refer to contact, I am refering to that instantaneous contact when a signal is recieved and automatically acted upon without concious thought. The automatic reactions being developed over time through chi sau and other drills.

Glad to hear you've been successful in your fights so far, long may it continue.

Wing Chun is Wing Chun. Passed down to the majority of us from ONE man! There should be no differences in interpretation! The differences come from people trying to re-invent the wheel because they spent 5 mins in Yip Man's school or think that just because they are a blood relation they were taught the whole system and have rights to be called masters! :mad:

GH

[Phil Redmond]

If you are not close enough to for them to do a hook are you fighting from a longer range than chi sau range?
A hook is way closer than chi sao range. Non boxers tend to think a round punch is a hook. A hook is "similar" to the lan saos in SLT. Try doing a single arm lan and think of how someone can get an arm inside that limited space. ;)

[Phil Redmond]

Do me a favour! <<<<<pukes>>>>>

Probably better to call him Phil me thinks.

GH

I've only been doing Wing Chun for 41 years and I prefer "Si-Fu" but, Master is the position I have in our Association. What can I tell you? Opinions vary and you have the right to yours.
Also, you can't tell another grown man what he should say.

[Phil Redmond]

Wing Chun is Wing Chun. Passed down to the majority of us from ONE man! There should be no differences in interpretation! The differences come from people trying to re-invent the wheel because they spent 5 mins in Yip Man's school or think that just because they are a blood relation they were taught the whole system and have rights to be called masters! :mad:

GH
There are different interpretations among many of the Wing Chun elders. You are definitely living with blinders. It's so clear how you think your way is the only right way and everyone else is wrong. That's really sad. Post some clips of you. I guarantee the myself and others can find faults. Your invincibility will be exposed to all. You'll simply be another Wing Chun mortal trying to do the best he can with what he's got.

[GlennR]

Wing Chun is Wing Chun. Passed down to the majority of us from ONE man! There should be no differences in interpretation! The differences come from people trying to re-invent the wheel because they spent 5 mins in Yip Man's school or think that just because they are a blood relation they were taught the whole system and have rights to be called masters! :mad:

GH

Yeh, you tell em again you PBWSLVT guy!!!!!! ;)

[Ozzy Dave]

Wing Chun is Wing Chun. Passed down to the majority of us from ONE man! There should be no differences in interpretation! GH

Interpretation is inevitable and to some extent desirable, its what keeps a martial art system adaptable and relevant.

Dave

[anerlich]

There should be no differences in interpretation!

I would hope there were. I would hope to have an instructor who encourages me to think for myself. If I want dogma, I'll join a fundamentalist church.

You've interpreted your association with a practitioner who makes very nice chi sao vids as giving you dibs on authority about WC.

It must be boring to think you know all there is to know, or even think that Yip Man or WSL did.

[anerlich]

Do me a favour!

Have you done anything that deserves one?

[imperialtaichi]

I would hope there were. I would hope to have an instructor who encourages me to think for myself. If I want dogma, I'll join a fundamentalist church.

My KL22 teacher Mst. Leung told me, "Photocopies degrades at every subsequent copies. Same as Kung Fu's. If you don't innovate, it will just die off."

My IYTC teacher Mst. Wei wrote on my acceptance duty, "to research and experiment, and take it to the next level."

Everything is evolving. An animal that fails to evolve to adapt the environment we become extinct. Unlike the old days where Kung Fu was kept as secrets, we have access to information. We should make the best of it.

[GlennR]

My KL22 teacher Mst. Leung told me, "Photocopies degrades at every subsequent copies. Same as Kung Fu's. If you don't innovate, it will just die off."

My IYTC teacher Mst. Wei wrote on my acceptance duty, "to research and experiment, and take it to the next level."

Everything is evolving. An animal that fails to evolve to adapt the environment we become extinct. Unlike the old days where Kung Fu was kept as secrets, we have access to information. We should make the best of it.

Totally agree John
To be sitting there saying you cant get better than Ip Man means we should all give up and do something else as it reached its pinnacle in the 1950-60's.

Who wants to do something where youll only ever be a sub-standard version of someone 40 years ago.

Boxers, MT and MMA guys dont think this way.... in fact they constantly try to out do their predecessors and not live in ther shadows

[Graham H]

Boxers, MT and MMA guys dont think this way.... in fact they constantly try to out do their predecessors and not live in ther shadows

Disregarding all that nonsense since my last post...............

You wouldn't call a shovel a spoon would you Glenda? In Wing Chun some somethingas simple as Tan Sau seems to have many many many different interpretations. That applys to everything is the system. In fact the only things that remain constant are the names of the forms. Boxers don't have 20 different jabs or 20 different hooks and they don't argue about who's throwing the best jab at a certain specific angle. They don't make the art of boxing into a laughing stock where fat little bald headed blokes start to add force vectors and "chi" into the ring so don't give me your usual BS!

You won't see your local Boxing club charging £30 per hours for a lesson on how to stand still and send certain energies to the fingertips will you?

Boxers train hard. They are in good shape and they get hurt! Whilst peoples skill level and conditioning may vary, boxing is a simple art form of trying to hit the other guy and either score points or knock somebody out. Wing Chun like that is it?

You also wont see some jumped up little nobhead say to a boxer "you're not good until you fight other fighting arts to prove to us if you are good" better still put up a video clip!

It seems to be ok for people to say they are teaching/practicing Yip Man Wing Chun and yet from school to school things vary massively! You call that "interpretation" and think it's ok??? Even Ip Chun and Ip Ching are different so what happened? They interpreted things differently did they? :rolleyes:

Amusing stuff! Keep it up!

GH

[Graham H]

There is enough hot air on this forum to keep the Good Year Blimp up for 100 years!

[wingchunIan]

Wing Chun is Wing Chun. Passed down to the majority of us from ONE man! There should be no differences in interpretation! The differences come from people trying to re-invent the wheel because they spent 5 mins in Yip Man's school or think that just because they are a blood relation they were taught the whole system and have rights to be called masters! :mad:

GH

Interesting perspective considering WSL made many changes to his Wing Chun based upon his own personal experiences in physical encounters. His Wing Chun continued to evolve after the death of Ip Man and he gave numerous interviews and articles to this effect. Not saying there's anything wrong with it (quite the reverse) but it does make your assertions that there should be no differences a bit strange.

[wingchunIan]

Boxers don't have 20 different jabs or 20 different hooks and they don't argue about who's throwing the best jab at a certain specific angle.

But you will get a difference of opinion in every gym in the country as to how to use the jab, when to look for hooks, the best angles to use, etc Additionally the use of techniques will be selected and mode of use determined based upon the fighter's physical characteristics, from within a framework of the coach's own beliefs and experience.

[Graham H]

Interesting perspective considering WSL made many changes to his Wing Chun based upon his own personal experiences in physical encounters. His Wing Chun continued to evolve after the death of Ip Man and he gave numerous interviews and articles to this effect. Not saying there's anything wrong with it (quite the reverse) but it does make your assertions that there should be no differences a bit strange.

I disagree! Which articles have you been reading? WSL said that he taught exactly what he was taught by Yip Man all be it in a more systematic manner. There were subtle changes made from WSL' experiences but these were discussed with Yip Man himself. Post Yip Man's passing when WSL started to teach all around the world he had the gift to tailor certain training methods to suit individuals but always found it difficult in seminars because of the differences in abilites and some people arrived from different lineages. WSL stayed true to what Yip Man taught him just as PB stays true to what WSL taught him. If there are massive inconsitencies anywhere there is only one reason for it.

Because most people refuse to question the validity of what they are being taught the only way to explain these things away is to use the "interpretation" scenario. How else is one sifu going to explain to his students how his system is completely different to the next mans even though they were taught by the same person???? :confused:

Fortunately for me I don't only have one guy telling me I have many who spent many many hours in the company of WSL training hard and talking around the dinner table. Some Sifu can make up many stories and generation after generation of students will never know any better. I know some of them myself.

GH

[Phil Redmond]

But you will get a difference of opinion in every gym in the country as to how to use the jab, when to look for hooks, the best angles to use, etc Additionally the use of techniques will be selected and mode of use determined based upon the fighter's physical characteristics, from within a framework of the coach's own beliefs and experience.
Good post. You beat me to the punch. All one has to do is go to a boxing forum and you'll see some of the same arguments we have here......;)

[Graham H]

But you will get a difference of opinion in every gym in the country as to how to use the jab, when to look for hooks, the best angles to use, etc Additionally the use of techniques will be selected and mode of use determined based upon the fighter's physical characteristics, from within a framework of the coach's own beliefs and experience.

Sorry! having experienced it myself I disagree. A jab is a jab from A-B no problems! In Wing Chun a Tan Sau can be whatever one wants it to be then everybody follows suit and starts arguing about it on the internet. I had an arguement about Bong Sau once that went on for a year until the guy shut up and was proved wrong in the end.

GH

[Phil Redmond]

My KL22 teacher Mst. Leung told me, "Photocopies degrades at every subsequent copies. Same as Kung Fu's. If you don't innovate, it will just die off."

My IYTC teacher Mst. Wei wrote on my acceptance duty, "to research and experiment, and take it to the next level."

Everything is evolving. An animal that fails to evolve to adapt the environment we become extinct. Unlike the old days where Kung Fu was kept as secrets, we have access to information. We should make the best of it.
So true. So called Purists and those who think they have to whole enchilada will die off.

[Graham H]

Good post. You beat me to the punch. All one has to do is go to a boxing forum and you'll see some of the same arguments we have here......;)

Send me the link. I have looked and cant find any.

GH

[Phil Redmond]

Send me the link. I have looked and cant find any.

GH
They are not as bad as we are but they do exist. Just keep searching.

[Graham H]

They are not as bad as we are............

Kind of proves my point and also made me chuckle!

GH

[Phil Redmond]

Kind of proves my point and also made me chuckle!

GH
Well you got me there. We are have so many haters in our WC family and it's a shame.

[anerlich]

There is enough hot air on this forum to keep the Good Year Blimp up for 100 years!

There was a dip when Terence was banned, but it spiked again when you and Kev started posting Bayer chi sao vids, and has stayed there ever since.

[Graham H]

There was a dip when Terence was banned, but it spiked again when you and Kev started posting Bayer chi sao vids, and has stayed there ever since.


Oh well life goes on.

[JPinAZ]

But you will get a difference of opinion in every gym in the country as to how to use the jab, when to look for hooks, the best angles to use, etc Additionally the use of techniques will be selected and mode of use determined based upon the fighter's physical characteristics, from within a framework of the coach's own beliefs and experience.

Great point. That will surely happen when talking about different 'styles' between boxers. There are all types of styles for defense and offense in boxing and it's practitioners. The only real constant you'll find is they still have to fit within the ruleset.

Where I see the WC system as a step away from this, the system itself gives us a road map to the how's and why's of the techniques based on the principles and concepts of the art. It isn't a belief system. Of course there can always be the stylistic arguments we see here quite often, on which technique is better vs another in a given scenario. But IMO, that's more 'what works best for me', not what ultimately works best. The system, should give us that answer based on what's most efficient and effective for that given scenario, if that is our real goal (which, to me, is WC primary goal).
We've seen the argument about tan sau vs. biu sau for defense against a round punch. But if you are adhering to the principles of the system, there should only be one maximally efficient/effective tool based on the given range, angle, facing to the opponent, contact point and energy of the attack. The system solves that question of which sylistic view is best since it's a principle based art. The technique is just the byproduct of this.

IMO, it's all the MISintepretation that has gone on thru the years that causes the biggest differences between teachers and practitioners of the system, but the system is still the same. Centerline is still centerline. And a lot of people misinterpret even this first concept differently.

Having said all that, I'm not saying I have the golden key no one else is holding either :) More just sharing my view on how the 'art of boxing' & 'WC system' are 2 very different things once you look past their techniques and general idea that they are both fighting arts.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . .there should only be one maximally efficient/effective tool based on the given range, angle, facing to the opponent, contact point and energy of the attack. . .
If you're speaking about the "exact" science of mathematics, maybe yes. But you're talking about human movement/kinesiology. We're all slightly different in neurologically, muscularly, structurally. Efficient results can be reached differently by two different people. You can't tell someone that you HAVE to do a certain technique. What if they achieve better results doing something else? Is their Wing Chun less valid because they didn't do a technique that you think they should've used?


. . .The system solves that question of which sylistic view is best since it's a principle based art. The technique is just the byproduct of this. . . . . . If I'm interpreting this correctly you're agreeing with me.

[JPinAZ]

If you're speaking about the "exact" science of mathematics, maybe yes. But you're talking about human movement/kinesiology. We're all slightly different in neurologically, muscularly, structurally. Efficient results can be reached differently by two different people. You can't tell someone that you HAVE to do a certain technique. What if they achieve better results doing something else? Is their Wing Chun less valid because they didn't do a technique that you think they should've used?

Haha, no, I'm not telling anyone what to do. Nothing is set in stone and people can and will do what they chose. That's why we see so many different 'styles' of WC - that's the expression of their art, not the system itself.
Nor am I saying it will always work out perfectly in application in the heat of the fight - that's a biproduct of training and chaos of the fight. But the closer we can train toward maximum efficiency and effectiveness, the bettter chances we have of this coming out during the fight.

And, I hear what you're saying, but the human skeleton is more or less the same from person to person. Yes, bone and muscle density does have a factor in this. But we each have 2 arms, 2 legs, toros, etc right?. And more to the point, physics is still physics, geometry is still geometry - the laws of nature do not change, correct?
But yeah, I'd agree that one tool for a short guy with short limbs against a tall guy with long limbs might be different than if the opponents were more the same size. A tall strong guy might make a taan vs. round punch work against a shorter guy where it probably won't work the other way around. And that is why I listed angle, facing and range as some of the variables ;)

Regardless, in the end, the system should still point us to the most efficient AND effective response whatever the case. There's also tactics/strategy that might cause some variances. Again, when you take these into account, the answer should still present itself.

[Ozzy Dave]

Because most people refuse to question the validity of what they are being taught the only way to explain these things away is to use the "interpretation" scenario. GH

I think questioning the validity of things (rather than not) leads directly to testing, adaptation and therefore (re)interpretation of principles.

Are you saying there is no room for innovation or growth in your experience?

I'd be interested in your opinion on this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdgHUWQU3hg

Dave

[Graham H]

I think questioning the validity of things (rather than not) leads directly to testing, adaptation and therefore (re)interpretation of principles.

Are you saying there is no room for innovation or growth in your experience?

I'd be interested in your opinion on this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdgHUWQU3hg

Dave

Listen dude! The only thing that leads to people "reinterpretating" something is because they cannot make it work or do not understand it. This is why in WC there are so many conflicting ideas. On paper WC is very simple and yet in most WC they make it very hard because they are trying to execute movements or apply principles that are incorrect. I used to have the same problem so I would travel around looking for somebody who could make these things work and also offer explanations and training methods that I no longer had to question. I consider myself fortunate regardless of how I may be judged and its not until people meet me in person that the question always comes up "why has my old sifu got things so wrong? It's same question that I asked myself and eventually had answers. End of!

As for the video I'm not there so how can I comment?? I don't see any CK strategy or moving but unlike some I refuse to make any comments based on video footage.

Of course there is room for innovation but as yet I haven't seen any. Like Bruce Lee said (which cam from WSL) unless we develop more arms and legs then there always be one way of fighting. IMO in essence Ving Tsun has it all but the human factor breaks things down in most cases.

GH

[Ozzy Dave]

The only thing that leads to people "reinterpretating" something is because they cannot make it work or do not understand it.

I agree with that but not for the same reason.

IMO its about running into challenges when testing your skills.

My point is that interpretation is often about strategy and tactics not the mechanical detail which is so easy to overcook.


This is why in WC there are so many conflicting ideas. On paper WC is very simple and yet in most WC they make it very hard because they are trying to execute movements or apply principles that are incorrect.

I disagree, WC has trouble because we for the most part train only against ourselves and that was why I asked for your comments on the clip as one of the guys sparring quite clearly was more comfortable with a wider variety of tactics and they were from a WSL line.

For all the clips I've seen from your WSL line not once have I seen anyone throw an attacking movement from another approach to combat.

How can you sharpen a knife on another knife - you need a stone.

If you want to see innovation pressure test your art with attacking scenarios other than your own.

I suggest for starters go and learn boxing to challenge your WC or just train with boxers then spar with contact and see what comes of it. After all that's one reason WSL was so good - he was a good boxer before he ran into YM.

Dave

[Phil Redmond]

I agree with that but not for the same reason.

IMO its about running into challenges when testing your skills.

My point is that interpretation is often about strategy and tactics not the mechanical detail which is so easy to overcook.



I disagree, WC has trouble because we for the most part train only against ourselves and that was why I asked for your comments on the clip as one of the guys sparring quite clearly was more comfortable with a wider variety of tactics and they were from a WSL line.

For all the clips I've seen from your WSL line not once have I seen anyone throw an attacking movement from another approach to combat.

How can you sharpen a knife on another knife - you need a stone.

If you want to see innovation pressure test your art with attacking scenarios other than your own.

I suggest for starters go and learn boxing to challenge your WC or just train with boxers then spar with contact and see what comes of it. After all that's one reason WSL was so good - he was a good boxer before he ran into YM.

Dave
Dave, that is so true and well written, without using any disparaging remarks, like some here do when people disagree with them. Btw, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[Ozzy Dave]

Dave, that is so true and well written, without using any disparaging remarks, like some here do when people disagree with them. Btw, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Thanks Phil, I appreciate your comments.

Yeah, guess I'm just getting old because I don't understand why respect doesn't seem to be a part of MA any more. I mean if you can go half way to understanding someone elses point of view even if you don't agree with them then you can have a discussion.

Dave

[SAAMAG]

Listen dude! The only thing that leads to people "reinterpretating" something is because they cannot make it work or do not understand it. This is why in WC there are so many conflicting ideas. On paper WC is very simple and yet in most WC they make it very hard because they are trying to execute movements or apply principles that are incorrect.

Your statement implies that there is only ONE way to do something to ensure success--this is flawed thinking. People are different. We have different physiques, different strengths, different weaknesses. The opponent plays a major factor in the success of a technique as well for the same reasons. IMO the reason why WC can't work for many is because of people using your method of thinking. You don't see boxers, wrestlers, judoka, jujitsu stylists, karateka, Muay Thai stylists, and other fighters nitpicking the angle of a block, the setup for a throw, or saying there's only one way to throw a jab. In fact they embrace that people innovate and work the techniques to create success for themselves. THAT is what a true fighter does.

Now, as far as working with jabs: IME what works best is good footwork, timing, and evasive movement. Jabs are quick, and reaction is slower than action. So many times covering is the smartest option. You should learn quickly what will work best for your specific opponent by trying different things. Like anything else--if you do one thing over an over your opponent will adapt and use your reaction against you.

WC specific, I'd use any combination of pak, bong, and wu sao, along with just keeping a high covering guard-combined with footwork.

[Graham H]

Your statement implies that there is only ONE way to do something to ensure success--this is flawed thinking. People are different. We have different physiques, different strengths, different weaknesses. The opponent plays a major factor in the success of a technique as well for the same reasons. IMO the reason why WC can't work for many is because of people using your method of thinking. You don't see boxers, wrestlers, judoka, jujitsu stylists, karateka, Muay Thai stylists, and other fighters nitpicking the angle of a block, the setup for a throw, or saying there's only one way to throw a jab. In fact they embrace that people innovate and work the techniques to create success for themselves. THAT is what a true fighter does.
.

I think you have totally misunderstood my point me old china, because you say my thinking is flawed and then compliment my POV in the same sentence.

Let me make it simple for you people with a lower IQ......some people protest that Tan Sau is a palm up block used for blocking hooks. Some other people say it's for driving into your opponent and is only used in poon sau. Some other people say that Tan Sau is a punchinc concept (like me)..........I could go on and give conflicting ideas on the other arm actions but there is no point.

So lets take two ideas. One is a block, one is a punch. So are you saying that which one we use depends on size, strength and weaknesses??? My idea of Tan Sau has nothing to do with blocking. If you are trying to convince me that both are "interpretations" and that is acceptable then go to the back of the room and stand with your hands on your head facing the wall!! :)

GH

[Graham H]

Here's another one.................

fook sau is for sensing your opponents arm force at the wrist or is it a punching concept?

Interpretation or misunderstanding??

<<<<<in a small voice>>>> "i'm small so i use fook sau for sensing big man energy so I can use his force against him"

<<<<<in a deep voice>>>> "I'm a big guy so I punch people with it!"

Maybe I sit on the fence. It can be both but can also be used for digging holes in sand coz my Sifu said so!

LMAO :D:D

[Graham H]

...insert English sarcasm to the above! LOL

[Ozzy Dave]

Here's another one.................

fook sau is for sensing your opponents arm force at the wrist or is it a punching concept?



Lets say punching concept Graham, so what's the difference between a fook sao punch and a jum sao punch?

Dave

[wingchunIan]

If tan sau and fook sau are just punching concepts then why do they exist at all? why not just punch? If you're trying to train punches you punch, if you want to train the punching angle you do it whilst punching, if you want to train covering the centreline or recovering the centreline whilst punching then you do just that. I don't disagree that the shapes can help in developing punching attributes but to say that it is their only use is IMO a very incomplete view, however it could of course come down to semantics and the scope of "punching concepts"

[Graham H]

Lets say punching concept Graham, so what's the difference between a fook sao punch and a jum sao punch?

Dave

Fook Sau trains the elbow for the punch and Jum Sau is a punch. Fook Sau, like Tan Sau, is abstract! They train and develop the correct behaviour for punching, in other words changing our normal habits, so that we can punch correctly according to Ving Tsun theory.

Jum Sau uses the inside of the elbow to clear the way for the punch (should it be required) and Tan Sau uses the outside of the elbow. These two concepts coupled with the correct punching methods and strategies allows us to always press the opponent whilst attacking, defending our center, clearing the path for the punch and always finding the quickes route the the target all in one go.

The basic idea of using Tan Sau to block a hook whilst using the other hand to punch is NOT good VT application but is practiced in so many schools. That is generally what is considered "simultaneously attacking and defending" but I found a better way of thinking. WSLPB's way. ;)

GH

[Graham H]

If tan sau and fook sau are just punching concepts then why do they exist at all? why not just punch? If you're trying to train punches you punch, if you want to train the punching angle you do it whilst punching, if you want to train covering the centreline or recovering the centreline whilst punching then you do just that. I don't disagree that the shapes can help in developing punching attributes but to say that it is their only use is IMO a very incomplete view, however it could of course come down to semantics and the scope of "punching concepts"

Refer to my post and remember one thing.....I was in the same lineage as you for 8 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GH

[Graham H]

I think your view is extremely incomplete. Not your fault obviously.

[wingchunIan]

Refer to my post and remember one thing.....I was in the same lineage as you for 8 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GH

we can agree to disagree. Out of interest when you say same lineage what / who do you mean?

[Graham H]

we can agree to disagree. Out of interest when you say same lineage what / who do you mean?

Because I have been exposed to your way of thinking. You haven't been exposed to mine.

[Graham H]

Answer me this................Why do we push Tan Sau/Fook Sau out so slowly in SLT????

[Ozzy Dave]

Fook Sau trains the elbow for the punch and Jum Sau is a punch. Fook Sau, like Tan Sau, is abstract! They train and develop the correct behaviour for punching, in other words changing our normal habits, so that we can punch correctly according to Ving Tsun theory.

Jum Sau uses the inside of the elbow to clear the way for the punch (should it be required) and Tan Sau uses the outside of the elbow. These two concepts coupled with the correct punching methods and strategies allows us to always press the opponent whilst attacking, defending our center, clearing the path for the punch and always finding the quickes route the the target all in one go.

Thanks Graham, I like the concept.

Dave

[sanjuro_ronin]

I want to train myself to fight against kickboxers with Wing Chun.

Me and my friend practice together yesterday.

My theory is to first train to counter long range attacks and then slowly move into close range where Chi Sao moves are applicable.

The first problem I face is the fast jabs of a boxer.

I found outside Pak Sao really effective. But while using inside Tan Sao, it only works when I turn horse or else I need to use a lot of force to deflect that punch.

Any ideas?

Nunchuck Guy (http://nunchuckguy.com)


Do NOT try to "block" a jab, ever and most certainly never "commit" to blocking a jab, ever.
Wanna get your WC to a point that it can deal with good kickboxers?
No problem.
Find some good kickboxers, fight them, fix what doesn't work and voila, mission accomplished.

[wingchunIan]

Because I have been exposed to your way of thinking. You haven't been exposed to mine.

you keep saying so but what / who do you mean? PM me if you don't want to say on the forum.

As for why the actions are done slowly there are many reasons, amongst them to develop muscle memory for shapes, paths of travel and stopping points as well as learning to relax.

[LoneTiger108]

The basic idea of using Tan Sau to block a hook whilst using the other hand to punch is NOT good VT application but is practiced in so many schools. That is generally what is considered "simultaneously attacking and defending" but I found a better way of thinking. WSLPB's way. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLWzRD4CKTY

Here is an example of exactly what you are saying G, and Sifu Dyde is Sam Kwoks number one promoter in the UK at the moment representing Ip Ching and what they like to call 'Ip Man Wing Chun'. He moves well and is known as a decent fighter.

I find nothing wrong in using Tan Da as Steve does in the clip (around 13secs onwards) as he is doing so with courage and committment against a guy who is also 'trying' ;) but I do understand what you are saying because if you have no structure then the Tan and punch idea can simply be blown out of the water against a decent boxer.

With regards to Tan being a block or punch?? Er.... I can't be bothered! :eek:

[Graham H]

you keep saying so but what / who do you mean? PM me if you don't want to say on the forum.

As for why the actions are done slowly there are many reasons, amongst them to develop muscle memory for shapes, paths of travel and stopping points as well as learning to relax.

Its not a secret. You are in the Ip Chun lineage right? I was as well and I left.

Muscle memory for what shapes in order to do what? Paths of travel for what? Stopping points for what? You would thrown your Tan Sau shape with the elbow in the center would you. In fighting you would be pushing the elbow in to the center like in SLT would you? Why would you want to know where to stop if you are trying to punch a guys head in or do you Tan Sau until the arm is flat?

Can you explain further??

G

[Graham H]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLWzRD4CKTY

Here is an example of exactly what you are saying G, and Sifu Dyde is Sam Kwoks number one promoter in the UK at the moment representing Ip Ching and what they like to call 'Ip Man Wing Chun'. He moves well and is known as a decent fighter.

I find nothing wrong in using Tan Da as Steve does in the clip (around 13secs onwards) as he is doing so with courage and committment against a guy who is also 'trying' ;) but I do understand what you are saying because if you have no structure then the Tan and punch idea can simply be blown out of the water against a decent boxer.

With regards to Tan being a block or punch?? Er.... I can't be bothered! :eek:

You think that is with courage and commitment do you? Its pre rehearsed rubbish drilling. Look at what happens when one tan/da has been thrown their other side is wide open. That clip is not good for fighting and leads people up the garden path! Of course you can do Tan/da if you know whats coming. Show me a clip of it being used effectively where no co-operation is involved.

GH

[LoneTiger108]

You think that is with courage and commitment do you? Its pre rehearsed rubbish drilling.

I knew I shouldn't have bothered 'trying' to start a decent conversation!!

This 'pre-rehearsed rubbish drilling' has it's place, especially for beginners, and you should try to remember that. Not everybody can begin their learning at your present level!! It may not be the best method against a trained bloody animal, but it will work against the average man who takes a swing. My opinion of course.

FWIW Tan Da is a key method in my 108, and it is there you will see how to 'use it' properly or 'make it work' imho. If you know what you're doing you may never have to use anything else ;) Ip Man knew this!

[wingchunIan]

Its not a secret. You are in the Ip Chun lineage right? I was as well and I left.
yes but in the same way as the WSL lineage has many variants so does every lineage.



Muscle memory for what shapes in order to do what? to make sure that they are correct every time or as close as possible when under pressure. What shapes? all of them.


Paths of travel for what? knowing the start point and end point for a technique doesn't mean you have the correct path. I've seen plenty of people doing tan sau like wax on wax off and looking like a swimmer when doing bong sau.

Stopping points for what? fixed elbow distance for one to avoid over shooting or having to make micro adjustments.

You would thrown your Tan Sau shape with the elbow in the center would you. In fighting you would be pushing the elbow in to the center like in SLT would you? The opening section of SNT is amongst other things there to introduce and train centreline. Bringing the elbow in trains the ability to do so and yes if required in a fight I have no issue with forwarding my elbow along the centre line, always? -no, if needed to attack or defend -yes

Why would you want to know where to stop if you are trying to punch a guys head in or do you Tan Sau until the arm is flat?
When punching we don't stop but tan sau has a defined stopping point because the angle, shape and distance from the body are what make it work as a defensive structure.



G[/QUOTE]

[Graham H]

I knew I shouldn't have bothered 'trying' to start a decent conversation!!

This 'pre-rehearsed rubbish drilling' has it's place, especially for beginners, and you should try to remember that. Not everybody can begin their learning at your present level!! It may not be the best method against a trained bloody animal, but it will work against the average man who takes a swing. My opinion of course.

FWIW Tan Da is a key method in my 108, and it is there you will see how to 'use it' properly or 'make it work' imho. If you know what you're doing you may never have to use anything else ;) Ip Man knew this!

They are not beginners though are Spencer? :rolleyes:

You don't know what Ip Man knew!

G

[Graham H]

yes but in the same way as the WSL lineage has many variants so does every lineage.

Like I said before, WSL had many visitors and not many proper students. The people that went to HK and trained with him a few times will not have had sufficient training but went onto open there own schools.


to make sure that they are correct every time or as close as possible when under pressure. What shapes? all of them.

So you mean like when you throw a tan sau its in the right place??? Impossible. People throw punches and kicks from many angles and levels so to warrant throwing a shape at a specific height etc is nonsense!


knowing the start point and end point for a technique doesn't mean you have the correct path. I've seen plenty of people doing tan sau like wax on wax off and looking like a swimmer when doing bong sau.

You're losing me. SLT is very one dimensional. The actions are for position and reference not application in SLT. Once CK is added there are crossing lines btween man sau and wu sau. This is not the case in SLT up until the last three actions and then the punches.



fixed elbow distance for one to avoid over shooting or having to make micro adjustments.

In fighting we are always making micro adjustments. Knowing the limits in which we can move so that the theory doesn't break down is important.


The opening section of SNT is amongst other things there to introduce and train centreline.

How can you train a line??? Understanding the centerline is everywhere. The opening movements mean more than that. Fundamentally to do with the elbow and x'ing lines.


Bringing the elbow in trains the ability to do so and yes if required in a fight I have no issue with forwarding my elbow along the centre line, always?

For what reason? SLT is an exercise. No fighting. Why would you want to forward your elbow up the center like in SLT in a real fight??? :confused:



When punching we don't stop but tan sau has a defined stopping point because the angle, shape and distance from the body are what make it work as a defensive structure.

That's absolute BS and you're starting to sound like Clive "number one son" potter. WSL's best student :eek::eek::D:D

G

[SAAMAG]

I think you have totally misunderstood my point me old china, because you say my thinking is flawed and then compliment my POV in the same sentence.

Nowhere in my response did I contradict myself or compliment your thinking. Not quite sure what you read there. Perhaps you can point out where that is?



Let me make it simple for you people with a lower IQ......some people protest that Tan Sau is a palm up block used for blocking hooks. Some other people say it's for driving into your opponent and is only used in poon sau. Some other people say that Tan Sau is a punchinc concept (like me)..........I could go on and give conflicting ideas on the other arm actions but there is no point.

So lets take two ideas. One is a block, one is a punch. So are you saying that which one we use depends on size, strength and weaknesses??? My idea of Tan Sau has nothing to do with blocking. If you are trying to convince me that both are "interpretations" and that is acceptable then go to the back of the room and stand with your hands on your head facing the wall!! :)
GH

Or, let's act like an adult and talk like men and leave the insecurity complexes at home. I know what you're saying. It is the oldest and lamest argument in the WC world. Your way is right, everyone else's that differs from yours is wrong. It's this style-centristic thinking that inhibits growth. At least that's the way it's coming across.

What if someone can successfully use Tan Sao to block a punch in real time? Is it still wrong? What if someone uses Tan Sao successfully in clinching? Is it still wrong? What if some use Tan Sao only in the form but interpret it as a punch? If it works and makes sense for them, is it wrong because you don't agree?

Now to elaborate on the skills and attributes dictating moves, let's say the OP normally used tan sao successfully against incoming punches, but now finds that this particular opponent is too fast, and he can't catch it, then he needs to work it differently or use another tactic to deal with it like wu or pak or cover. People who fight find out quickly what fits where to make it effective.

You also have to remember that a single tool can have more than one use.

[Graham H]

Nowhere in my response did I contradict myself or compliment your thinking. Not quite sure what you read there. Perhaps you can point out where that is?



Or, let's act like an adult and talk like men and leave the insecurity complexes at home. I know what you're saying. It is the oldest and lamest argument in the WC world. Your way is right, everyone else's that differs from yours is wrong. It's this style-centristic thinking that inhibits growth. At least that's the way it's coming across.

What if someone can successfully use Tan Sao to block a punch in real time? Is it still wrong? What if someone uses Tan Sao successfully in clinching? Is it still wrong? What if some use Tan Sao only in the form but interpret it as a punch? If it works and makes sense for them, is it wrong because you don't agree?

Now to elaborate on the skills and attributes dictating moves, let's say the OP normally used tan sao successfully against incoming punches, but now finds that this particular opponent is too fast, and he can't catch it, then he needs to work it differently or use another tactic to deal with it like wu or pak or cover. People who fight find out quickly what fits where to make it effective.

You also have to remember that a single tool can have more than one use.

Adults??? On this forum? Isn't this where we get to act like children and argue about who has the best firetruck???

I'm not answering you so there! Pft!!:p:)

You do your Wing Chun how you like and I'll do my Kung Fu like I like! I'm reluctant to even call what I practice Wing Chun because it can be misleading to those who are looking from the outside in. It is clear that the term "Wing Chun" can mean many many different things

GH

[Grumblegeezer]

Adults??? On this forum? Isn't this where we get to act like children and argue about who has the best firetruck???

I'm not answering you so there! Pft!!:p:)

You do your Wing Chun how you like and I'll do my Kung Fu like I like! I'm reluctant to even call what I practice Wing Chun because it can be misleading to those who are looking from the outside in. It is clear that the term "Wing Chun" can mean many many different things
GH

IMHO this is the best post I've read lately. Kinda says it like it is.

[SAAMAG]

Adults??? On this forum? Isn't this where we get to act like children and argue about who has the best firetruck???

I'm not answering you so there! Pft!!:p:)

You do your Wing Chun how you like and I'll do my Kung Fu like I like! I'm reluctant to even call what I practice Wing Chun because it can be misleading to those who are looking from the outside in. It is clear that the term "Wing Chun" can mean many many different things

GH

Indeed Graham. Indeed. WC has many faces; and I can identify with what you're saying about your wing chun not fitting the "mold", as mine had flexed and remolded itself over the many years.

[LoneTiger108]

You don't know what Ip Man knew!

You're right there my friend. Nobody actually knows. But the evidence of what he did know is with all of us imho and so much is in that crazy 108

Including Tan Da! :D

[Graham H]

You're right there my friend. Nobody actually knows. But the evidence of what he did know is with all of us imho and so much is in that crazy 108

Including Tan Da! :D

I disagree! In most cases a very crude, misunderstood, erronus version of Ving Tsun is present in a vast majority of kwoons on the planet.

Some people can fight regardless of what style they practice and this is why so many flawed systems of VT flourish...................in my opinion! In some cases bad VT will actually make people worse fighters.....they just don't know it. For those VT practioners that have never fought, when and if they do, they will more than likely revert back to type.....its human nature.'

You only have to look at these guys that are permanently glued to each others arms in ridiculous chi sau competitions and over analytical esoteric nonsense to prove my point. These guys can't fight.

All those sifu that charge absurd amounts of money for lessons, don't ever spar their students, walk around with an air of arrogance but with bellys full of cakes and coca cola
and talk silly ideas about WC being created by a woman so that small people can defeat big people can take a long walk off a short plank.

Just saying. That is all! :)
G

[GlennR]

You think that is with courage and commitment do you? Its pre rehearsed rubbish drilling. Look at what happens when one tan/da has been thrown their other side is wide open. That clip is not good for fighting and leads people up the garden path! Of course you can do Tan/da if you know whats coming. Show me a clip of it being used effectively where no co-operation is involved.

GH


Well they are harder than any of the punches thrown in any of PBWSLVT clips.

In fact, is there ever any punches thrown in PBWSLVT clips??

Compliant chi-sao away my dear!!

[Graham H]

Well they are harder than any of the punches thrown in any of PBWSLVT clips.

In fact, is there ever any punches thrown in PBWSLVT clips??

Compliant chi-sao away my dear!!

But you have never been to PB's club or taken part in any sparring or been hit by him or any of his students so anything else you care to add will be read then disregarded. In fact I liked you more when you were throwing names at me all the time. Can we go back to that?

BTW.................PB has the sort of power I would expect from a good Kung Fu guy......its a shame that nobody I met previously had the same amount of conditioning otherwise maybe I would be complimenting them as well.

G

[GlennR]

But you have never been to PB's club or taken part in any sparring or been hit by him or any of his students so anything else you care to add will be read then disregarded.

As i said to you previously, ive done a fair bit of training with the Barry Lee guys over here so, unless BL has the WSL way tragically wrong, i have a pretty good idea what you guys have to offer.
Good but not ground breaking.
And your logic is flawed in regards to your criticism. You let rip on Phil at will but you havent been to his school..... so youre the only guy in the world that can review a video clip???


In fact I liked you more when you were throwing names at me all the time. Can we go back to that?

Awwwwwwww, did you like me when i called you names??
Knob.......... are we in love again?? ;)



BTW.................PB has the sort of power I would expect from a good Kung Fu guy......its a shame that nobody I met previously had the same amount of conditioning otherwise maybe I would be complimenting them as well.

Check out Barry Lee if you do get a chance.... he hits like ten mules from what i hear

[Graham H]

As i said to you previously, ive done a fair bit of training with the Barry Lee guys over here so, unless BL has the WSL way tragically wrong, i have a pretty good idea what you guys have to offer.
Good but not ground breaking.
And your logic is flawed in regards to your criticism. You let rip on Phil at will but you havent been to his school..... so youre the only guy in the world that can review a video clip???

Awwwwwwww, did you like me when i called you names??
Knob.......... are we in love again?? ;)

Check out Barry Lee if you do get a chance.... he hits like ten mules from what i hear

Barry Lee is one person I haven't met but I teach somebody who has been taught by him so I'm hoping in the future that might change.

I wonder why you are even involved in VT sometimes Glenn. :confused:

I would go to meet Phil as Kevin has but his idea of VT is totally different to mine so to ask him for lessons would mean learning something different to what PB has taught me. I can speak for Philipp and I know he would have the same view.

Phil offers tuition based video clips. I view at think it contradicts my understanding of VT but I will never make judgements on Phil's abilty as a fighter. How can I? He may be able to blow me away but I still wouldn't be interested in his version of VT. I'm only being honest sugar t1ts!

G

[Graham H]

I find the fact that when you scroll down this forum page it says "I found Graham's video clip" very amusing. I love you! :p

G