Grab: How and Why

[ShaolinDan]

When I studied Aikido we were taught to grab thumb to pinky using the palm to grip because the fingers are the weak point in a grab.

In Eagle Claw we make our fingers strong and grab with them, this way a grab is also a pressure point attack.



How does your style/you grab? Why?

[YouKnowWho]

It's very slippery to dig your fingers into your opponent's muscle when your opponent sweats. It's better to take advantage on your opponent's bone structure. If you use your right hand to grab your left arm, you will find the best way to grab.

[David Jamieson]

The hand muscles that are made strong are palm and thumb. Fingers have no muscle in them. they are skin, fat,ligature and bone. There is no muscle to make fingers stronger. Grip is made stronger through the hand muscles.

repetition and compression can condition the practitioner to not be affected so readily by the neuralgia associated with bashing your fingers onto something, having them bent etc.

gripping exercises strengthen the palm and thumb muscle.

illustration:
http://l.yimg.com/a/i/edu/ref/ga/s/427.jpg

[ShaolinDan]

The hand muscles that are made strong are palm and thumb. Fingers have no muscle in them. they are skin, fat,ligature and bone. There is no muscle to make fingers stronger. Grip is made stronger through the hand muscles.

repetition and compression can condition the practitioner to not be affected so readily by the neuralgia associated with bashing your fingers onto something, having them bent etc.

gripping exercises strengthen the palm and thumb muscle.

illustration:
http://l.yimg.com/a/i/edu/ref/ga/s/427.jpg

and forearm

[ShaolinDan]

If you use your right hand to grab your left arm, you will find the best way to grab.

If you have strong fingers and aren't squeamish. :)

[Yao Sing]

I've heard the key is in tendon strength. You're only as strong as the weakest link.

[wenshu]

Finger muscles are in the forearm.

[ginosifu]

Grip strength seperates the men from the mice. Finger and hand grip strength comes from ligaments in the forearm. Repetition is the key to better grip strength. Good exercises for grip strength are:

SC Belt Cracking
Wrist Curls (Palm side facing up)
Forearm Curls (Palm side facing down)
Isometric / Dynamic tension exercises
Bamboo Twisting
Yellow Dragons (grab a tight fist, then flick all your fingers out, grab, flick, repeat)

All should be done until failure several times a day.

ginosifu

[Yao Sing]

Actually, ligaments connect bone to bone and control the movement of joints. It's the tendons that allow muscle strength to translate into movement.

[Lee Chiang Po]

No real need to be so technical here. It all boils down to the same thing. Get yourself a couple of large rubber balls. The foam type. Something you can cover and lift from the top of it. A smerf ball will even work. Just spend enough time giving it a squeeze and it will eventually strengthen the muscles. Muscles actually pull the tendons to make the hand work, so strengthen them and in doing so you will strengthen the tendons as well.
The hand is the weakest part of your arm. It responds to crush force and joint manipulation quite readily. Jiujitsu depends upon this factor. I can make a very large man do what I ask of him if I can get hold of his hand. And remember, an extended arm is the weakest. I can grab a mans wrist and using the first or middle finger and the thumb, actually seperate the wrist from the forarm and dislocate it. Wally Jay liked to place emphisis on the smaller joints in what he called Small Circle techniques. Just turning the joints in directions that they were not designed to go can render a big man helpless. The stronger your hands and arms are, the easier and more effective your gripping techniques will be.

[Yao Sing]

Funny nobody answered the original question. I play Northern Mantis so I hook. Guess that makes me a hooker. :D

Actually no matter how you grab the weakest point is between the fingers (with thumb to any finger).

[Shaolin]

We hook in Jiu Jitsu as well. Thumbs get caught in clothing and stuck. This can result in damage to the thumb and/or wrist while rolling. In wrestling we mostly use hooks for control (except when hand fighting). Clinch in Thai Boxing also uses hooks. Personally I've find very little benefit to using thumb grips over hook grips.

[ShaolinDan]

We hook in Jiu Jitsu as well. Thumbs get caught in clothing and stuck. This can result in damage to the thumb and/or wrist while rolling. In wrestling we mostly use hooks for control (except when hand fighting). Clinch in Thai Boxing also uses hooks. Personally I've find very little benefit to using thumb grips over hook grips.

True. (Eagle Claw hooks as well as claws--eagle wing and eagle beak). Involving the thumb has greater risk, however it allows you to rotate, tear, compress, and twist.

[Dragonzbane76]

Personally I've find very little benefit to using thumb grips over hook grips.
__________________

agree with you on this. I would not focus my efforts on trying to get a finger or some small appendage when I can get some over or underhooks on someone which translates to a lot more control.

[ShaolinDan]

agree with you on this. I would not focus my efforts on trying to get a finger or some small appendage when I can get some over or underhooks on someone which translates to a lot more control.

Even in Eagle Claw, most grabs are applied after contact has been established--Do you not use thumbs even when throwing or submitting?

[Shaolin]

Even in Eagle Claw, most grabs are applied after contact has been established--Do you not use thumbs even when throwing or submitting?

No. Whether gi or no gi grabs, throws and subs are done with the 4 fingers and the thumb to the side. Even the freestyle/greco wrestling grips typically used are a Gable grip and 'S' grip, neither of which utilize the thumbs.

[Dragonzbane76]

especially with Gi throws you are grabbing, usually, with the 4 fingers and twisting the material to lock your hand in place with thumb on the outside.

But of course there are times you use you thumb and grip in conjunction. But like I said I like, in the clinch, to use the hooks for better control. As for submittions there are verying factors in determining what I'm going to use. A lot of times position and fulcrum points will differ according to angles. Sometimes I will grip on the ground but others I will use mine and there body for the submittion.

[jdhowland]

White Crane & Hap Ga prefer the use of gross motor skills--joint locks without gripping. When a real grip is used, thumb in opposition to fingertips, it's for pain and tearing tissues. Strength is developed by fingertip push ups, chopstick twisting, and by gripping, swinging and curling weights (stone locks and muhk yih paai).

Both the radial- and ulnar-side approach are considered in clearing movements that may result in the opportunity to seize, but they are considered high-risk techniques due to the likelihood of missing or achieving a slippery grip. "Monkey hand" grips are considered specialized technique requiring extra training. The preferred method is to perform joint locks without an initial grip.

[ShaolinDan]

Interesting. Thanks. I will have to give my chinna a try without thumbs and see how it changes things.

[YouKnowWho]

try without thumbs ...
It depends on where do you grab.

In no Gi environment, the pulling will be a major issue. Without pulling, many throws can not be performed. When your hand control under your opponent's elbow, you will find out that if your "thumb" and "index finger" can "hook" on your opponent's upper arm bone (right at "humerus" that the bone is from thin to fat), you can have much solid grip even your opponent may have sweat on his body. It's one solution for "slippery grip". You will find out that your "thumb" and "index finger" play an important role in "elbow joint" grip.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.riversideonline.com/source/images/image_popup/r7_armbones.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.riversideonline.com/health_reference/Disease-Conditions/DS01001.cfm%3FRenderForPrint%3D1&h=399&w=400&sz=16&tbnid=8xxD16ie-zTiYM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=90&zoom=1&docid=Q8otMhr4jRn4GM&sa=X&ei=hKsLT57TJoTJsQLD36XXBQ&ved=0CFUQ9QEwBg&dur=10978

For "wrist joint" grip, the middle finger, ring finger, and pinky may be more functional because your "pinky" can have a tight "hook" on your opponent's wrist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hand_parts.jpg

[ginosifu]

We hook in Jiu Jitsu as well. Thumbs get caught in clothing and stuck. This can result in damage to the thumb and/or wrist while rolling. In wrestling we mostly use hooks for control (except when hand fighting). Clinch in Thai Boxing also uses hooks. Personally I've find very little benefit to using thumb grips over hook grips.

I have never had any problems using my thumbs while controlling opponents. In my Shuai Chiao matches I always used my thumb to "Lock In" any grip I had on a jacket (gripping the jacket into a fist). The same when gripping a arm or wrist, the thumb wraps around like making a fist or an Eagle's Claw.

I am not saying anything against what others do, just would like to point out that Superior Grip Training can give you and edge in controlling techniques.

ginosifu

[TaichiMantis]

We do grip training in mantis, very important for the chin na techniques.

[Ray Pina]

It is worth the time to research which grabs are illegal in BJJ tournaments with gi. They're illegal because those grips are too dominant.

[Yao Sing]

I always felt the stuff not allowed in sporting events is exactly the stuff I want to know and train. :p

[ShaolinDan]

It depends on where do you grab.

In no Gi environment, the pulling will be a major issue. Without pulling, many throws can not be performed. When your hand control under your opponent's elbow, you will find out that if your "thumb" and "index finger" can "hook" on your opponent's upper arm bone (right at "humerus" that the bone is from thin to fat), you can have much solid grip even your opponent may have sweat on his body. It's one solution for "slippery grip". You will find out that your "thumb" and "index finger" play an important role in "elbow joint" grip.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.riversideonline.com/source/images/image_popup/r7_armbones.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.riversideonline.com/health_reference/Disease-Conditions/DS01001.cfm%3FRenderForPrint%3D1&h=399&w=400&sz=16&tbnid=8xxD16ie-zTiYM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=90&zoom=1&docid=Q8otMhr4jRn4GM&sa=X&ei=hKsLT57TJoTJsQLD36XXBQ&ved=0CFUQ9QEwBg&dur=10978

For "wrist joint" grip, the middle finger, ring finger, and pinky may be more functional because your "pinky" can have a tight "hook" on your opponent's wrist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hand_parts.jpg

Yes. We like to wrap around bone (or under muscles).
For a wrist grab the thumb wraps one bone, the fingers the other... The grabs themselves are attacks, not just a means of control.

One detail to note--we dig in with the tips of the fingers, not the pads. Grip/finger training is essential for this method.

[ShaolinDan]

It is worth the time to research which grabs are illegal in BJJ tournaments with gi. They're illegal because those grips are too dominant.

So you like to grab inside your opponent's sleeve?