ATT. imperialtaichi

[kung fu fighter]

My Tai Chi teacher (Wei Shu Ren, Beijing) described as "feeling like sitting on a swing."
Stability is not attained through strong roots; but rather so unstable that the opponent cannot apply any force onto you. You can also move freely in any directions with the minimal of force, but always return the central equilibrium while releasing the "borrowed" energy. Hence solid rooting is a hinderance and it is not required; it becomes rather like, "sitting on a swing."

Hi John,

Can you give more details about this powering method?

When you say " sitting on a swing", are you referring to the swing (chair with two chains attached to it's side or a see saw?

[nasmedicine]

Hi John,

Can you give more details about this powering method?

When you say " sitting on a swing", are you referring to the swing (chair with two chains attached to it's side or a see saw?

Navin, you did touch hands or "flowed" with Sifu last time you've come up right?

IMO, John is referring to the type of swing with the chains, but don't get caught up in the visualization. IMO, based on what we do down here at our school, what he is really trying to say is that one shouldn't root or be rooted in the classical sense which lends itself to not allowing the other person to apply or issue any of their force one your body/structure/root/etc. Not to say you shouldn't root but certainly not when the opponent is trying to off root you.

How can you uproot/unroot a person who is not rooted to begin with. When you obtain a proper position/timing ( this can only be explain through touching hands) you can then apply your "root" ( again not the classical "hard" (siting on a swing) root that one usually thinks of but more of a "natural" root) to do what ever you want (i.e. repel, fajing, redirect, neutralize, etc).

The borrowed energy is basically the other persons "root" or force working against them. When you "sit on the swing" your Yi becomes stuck and this will, as john puts it, be a hindrance (for you become stuck and much much more detectable when you have a solid root.) This translates extremely well in chi sao/gor sao/sparring (especially in clinched positions).

I'm saying all this based on the assumption that John is doing something similar to what we are doing over at sifu's. Again you can only really tell by touching hands. Excuse me if I over simplified it.

[imperialtaichi]

Hi John,

Can you give more details about this powering method?

When you say " sitting on a swing", are you referring to the swing (chair with two chains attached to it's side or a see saw?

Hello KFF,

Swing, as in the chair with two chains.

Ideally (at least during practice anyway), when the opponent exerts force onto you, you do not want the force to get into you. For example, when the practice partner pushes onto your palm, you should not have force beyond the wrist. Hence, a stable stance is not neccessary and your body and feet can remain completely free and agile. So instead of focusing your practice on how to take the incoming force, you train not to let the force get into you.

The swing, also can be interpreted as a pendulum inside a wind chime bell; the wind causes the pendulum to move (while the bell remains relatively steady), and when the wind stops the pendulum swings back. Therefore, when someone pushes onto you, the power swings off without moving the body; and when the opponent's push is exhausted, the power swings back at the opponent.

-------

Of course, in a real fight, it will not be as ideal, but it's like training to kick high so in a fight kicking low becomes extra easy.

Having a strong stance is always nice; but in a fight, I may not have the luxury of a sure footing.

[imperialtaichi]

Navin, you did touch hands or "flowed" with Sifu last time you've come up right?

IMO, John is referring to the type of swing with the chains, but don't get caught up in the visualization. IMO, based on what we do down here at our school, what he is really trying to say is that one shouldn't root or be rooted in the classical sense which lends itself to not allowing the other person to apply or issue any of their force one your body/structure/root/etc. Not to say you shouldn't root but certainly not when the opponent is trying to off root you.

How can you uproot/unroot a person who is not rooted to begin with. When you obtain a proper position/timing ( this can only be explain through touching hands) you can then apply your "root" ( again not the classical "hard" (siting on a swing) root that one usually thinks of but more of a "natural" root) to do what ever you want (i.e. repel, fajing, redirect, neutralize, etc).

The borrowed energy is basically the other persons "root" or force working against them. When you "sit on the swing" your Yi becomes stuck and this will, as john puts it, be a hindrance (for you become stuck and much much more detectable when you have a solid root.) This translates extremely well in chi sao/gor sao/sparring (especially in clinched positions).

I'm saying all this based on the assumption that John is doing something similar to what we are doing over at sifu's. Again you can only really tell by touching hands. Excuse me if I over simplified it.

Nas, you are summing it up very nicely.

Perhaps it is my training with all these old Chinese Sifu's; they like to tell stories and I like to repeat them ;)

[nasmedicine]

Hello KFF,

Swing, as in the chair with two chains.

Ideally (at least during practice anyway), when the opponent exerts force onto you, you do not want the force to get into you. For example, when the practice partner pushes onto your palm, you should not have force beyond the wrist. Hence, a stable stance is not neccessary and your body and feet can remain completely free and agile. So instead of focusing your practice on how to take the incoming force, you train not to let the force get into you.

The swing, also can be interpreted as a pendulum inside a wind chime bell; the wind causes the pendulum to move (while the bell remains relatively steady), and when the wind stops the pendulum swings back. Therefore, when someone pushes onto you, the power swings off without moving the body; and when the opponent's push is exhausted, the power swings back at the opponent.

-------

Of course, in a real fight, it will not be as ideal, but it's like training to kick high so in a fight kicking low becomes extra easy.

Having a strong stance is always nice; but in a fight, I may not have the luxury of a sure footing.

::in Bruce Lee voice:: "The art of rooting without rooting..." ;)

[nasmedicine]

Nas, you are summing it up very nicely.

Perhaps it is my training with all these old Chinese Sifu's; they like to tell stories and I like to repeat them ;)

Thank you John, again I can only speak from my own experience, but from watching some of your clips I have a feeling that we speaking a very similar "language". Would be nice if you where bit closer in location or I closer to you. Again, can't fully appreciate it with out touching hands. Kind of like a fine wine, you can smell it all day from your class but you have to taste it to really enjoy it. ENJOY being to key word.

Cheers,

Rav

[nasmedicine]

Perhaps it is my training with all these old Chinese Sifu's; they like to tell stories and I like to repeat them ;)

I love stories, heard tons of them of a lot of the english speaking old timers in china town. I especially like the ones that come with examples! :)

[kung fu fighter]

Navin, you did touch hands or "flowed" with Sifu last time you've come up right?

IMO, John is referring to the type of swing with the chains, but don't get caught up in the visualization. IMO, based on what we do down here at our school, what he is really trying to say is that one shouldn't root or be rooted in the classical sense which lends itself to not allowing the other person to apply or issue any of their force one your body/structure/root/etc. Not to say you shouldn't root but certainly not when the opponent is trying to off root you.

How can you uproot/unroot a person who is not rooted to begin with. When you obtain a proper position/timing ( this can only be explain through touching hands) you can then apply your "root" ( again not the classical "hard" (siting on a swing) root that one usually thinks of but more of a "natural" root) to do what ever you want (i.e. repel, fajing, redirect, neutralize, etc).

The borrowed energy is basically the other persons "root" or force working against them. When you "sit on the swing" your Yi becomes stuck and this will, as john puts it, be a hindrance (for you become stuck and much much more detectable when you have a solid root.) This translates extremely well in chi sao/gor sao/sparring (especially in clinched positions).

I'm saying all this based on the assumption that John is doing something similar to what we are doing over at sifu's. Again you can only really tell by touching hands. Excuse me if I over simplified it.

Thanks Ravi,

I figured it's probably something similar to what sifu Joe does, But I wanted to get some more details from John to make a better comparrision.

How is everything going?

Please say Hello to sifu Joe, Mike and Lu and the rest of the guys for me.

[nasmedicine]

Thanks Ravi,

I figured it's probably something similar to what sifu Joe does, But I wanted to get some more details from John to make a better comparrision.

How is everything going?

Please say Hello to sifu Joe, Mike and Lu and the rest of the guys for me.

Anytime Nav, Things are going very good with me and over at the school. We are currently working on getting our website for the school up and running only problem is that everyone is so busy but we'll get around to finishing sometime soon. I'll be seeing sifu and the gang Tuesday night so I will be sure to relay the message. As always great talking to you brother.

Infinity,

Rav

[kung fu fighter]

Thanks for the reply John,


Ideally (at least during practice anyway), when the opponent exerts force onto you, you do not want the force to get into you..

What's the body mechanics that you use to dissolve the opponent's force , thus not letting the force get into you?


For example, when the practice partner pushes onto your palm, you should not have force beyond the wrist. .

So it's a neutral force, which ends at your wrist, that is used to yeald to the opponent's force?


Therefore, when someone pushes onto you, the power swings off without moving the body; and when the opponent's push is exhausted, the power swings back at the opponent.

How do you swing the oppoent's power off without moving the body, is it by folding your joints of your arm?

Which part of your body represents the pendulam of the wind chime? is it your arm or any part where the opponent applies his force?

[imperialtaichi]

Thanks for the reply John,



What's the body mechanics that you use to dissolve the opponent's force , thus not letting the force get into you?



So it's a neutral force, which ends at your wrist, that is used to yeald to the opponent's force?



How do you swing the oppoent's power off without moving the body, is it by folding your joints of your arm?

Which part of your body represents the pendulam of the wind chime? is it your arm or any part where the opponent applies his force?

Hello KFF,

No (perceived) folding of arms. All done through the mind.

The swinging pendulum is the resultant forces acting on your body.

Keep all movement to minimal.

[kung fu fighter]

The swinging pendulum is the resultant forces acting on your body.

Can you give an example of how the body moves to neutralize or deal with the resultant forces that's acting on it in order to return to or maintain central equalibrium?

[YouKnowWho]

when the opponent exerts force onto you, you do not want the force to get into you.
How do you apply this principle when you and your opponent's body are connected? It may be possible if you move around and avoid contact. It will be very difficult after the contact has been built.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGXGeOaq7no

[Robinhood]

How do you apply this concept when you and your opponent's body are connected?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGXGeOaq7no

If the force is not moving at you, why do you need to apply it ?, you will do something else.
IMO

[YouKnowWho]

If the force is not moving at you, why do you need to apply it ?, you will do something else.
When you talk about "force is moving at you (push)", that force may move away from you as well (pull).

How do you apply the principle (do not want the force to get into you) when your opponent pulls you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NLBEyJb1aA

[Robinhood]

When you talk about "force is moving at you (push)", that force may move away from you as well (pull).

How do you apply the principle (do not want the force to get into you) when your opponent pulls you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NLBEyJb1aA


There are many ways to stop a pull, but for simplicity you keep the pull from connecting to your frame, or be empty at connection point.

[nasmedicine]

When you talk about "force is moving at you (push)", that force may move away from you as well (pull).

How do you apply the principle (do not want the force to get into you) when your opponent pulls you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NLBEyJb1aA

IMO, The guy being pulled in the video is using a very "stable" type root. This why the other person is able to do what he is doing so easily. In other words he is not "dancing " with the guy who is running around and pulling. John mentioned earlier that using a stable root can be hindering, this is one such example.

[YouKnowWho]

keep the pull from connecting to your frame, or be empty at connection point.

How do you suppose to do that? Do you consider any difference between pulling a "solid" stick vs. pulling a "soft" snake (or pulling a live snake vs. pulling a dead snake)?


IMO, The guy being pulled in the video is using a very "stable" type root. This why the other person is able to do what he is doing so easily. In other words he is not "dancing " with the guy who is running around and pulling. John mentioned earlier that using a stable root can be hindering, this is one such example.
Could you give more detail on "not dancing"? Are you talking about "avoiding contact". Of course if you can move like a ghost and nobody will be able to touch you, you will be safe and nothing will happen to you.

Will you consider the following clip as "stable root" too? I don't think the "static root" vs. "dynamic root" can make much difference after the connection has been established.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfjkz5LNC_c

[Robinhood]

How do you do that? Do you consider any difference between pulling a "solid" stick vs. pulling a "soft" snake (or pulling a live snake vs. pulling a dead snake)?


]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfjkz5LNC_c[/url]

Well I don't pull on snakes, so I can't answer that, and sticks are not live tools, so pulling on them will not be real either. It reminds me of that Bruce Lee line "boards don't hit back".

It would be nice if you could learn from a video how to integrate your body mind movements to counter things, but it is not as simple as some technique that you remember and execute, that is body level execution, and that will not give you any advantage unless the other guy is doing body level stuff and then the stronger and faster will be at an advantage.

[nasmedicine]

Could you give more detail on "not dancing"? Are you talking about "avoiding contact". Of course if you can move like a ghost and nobody will be able to touch you, you will be safe and nothing will happen to you.

Will you consider this "stable root" too? I don't think the "static root" vs. "dynamic root" can make much difference after the connection has been established.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfjkz5LNC_c

By dancing I mean just that. When you dance with someone do you just stand there while the other person moves around. Your opponent is like a dance partner, you can be in step, out of step, take the lead, not take the lead. In other words you have to flow (and use your own discretion) with your opponent, especially when he establishes any type of contact.

Relative to the guy doing the pulling, the one being pulled has a classically stable stance (stiff), relative being the key word. So of course he got pulled off balance. Try that same move with a descent Bagua or Taichi practitioner, or dare I say a Judo or Akido practitioner...This move would not be done as effortlessly (notice how I DID NOT say that it wouldn't work at all). Another thing is that this is not all simply stance there are a lot of other things that need to be going on (think Yi). That however is not something that one can easily explain via written word, and if one does understand what I'm writing then one probably didn't need an explanation to begin with.

On the flip side it's your opponents job not to let you flow with him. (but the video you showed was not actual fighting but rather just demonstration). In reality the better person wins (of course). Btw, dead snake (no Yi) alive snake (Yi)

Cheers,

Rav

[anerlich]

Well I don't pull on snakes

Pshaw. All men are liars.

[YouKnowWho]

By dancing I mean just that. When you dance with someone do you just stand there while the other person moves around. Your opponent is like a dance partner, you can be in step, out of step, take the lead, not take the lead. In other words you have to flow (and use your own discretion) with your opponent, especially when he establishes any type of contact.
That's what I thought you were saying. If you can run faster than your opponent, even the best striker won't be able to hit you, and the best wrestler won't be able to take you down.

But you can't run away forever. Soon or later you have to stand on your ground and face the challenge.

[YouKnowWho]

how to integrate your body mind movements to counter things,...
You may just make a simple combat scenario complicate. You either

1. resist against your opponent if you think you are stronger,
2. yield, stick, and follow your opponent if you want to borrow his force. or
3. reverse the situation and force your opponent to response to you instead.

All 3 solutions may work according to your skill level. IMO, it has to do with "strategy" but not much to do with "integrate body mind movements".

[imperialtaichi]

Will you consider the following clip as "stable root" too? I don't think the "static root" vs. "dynamic root" can make much difference after the connection has been established.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfjkz5LNC_c

How do you counter someone pulling you?

Try grabbing onto the corner of a table and pull; notice how your centre of gravity shifts, how the forces acting on you shoulders, tension at the wrist and fulcrum point on your feet etc...

When the opponent pulls onto you, he is experiencing all the weaknesses as above that you can exploit. No need to dance with the opponent; just change his angle (be subtle, so you can deceive him) and let him pull himself off balance.

Now, the keyword is "deceive". The more the opponent is committed to doing the wrong thing, the more time you have and less force you need. If he realise he is losing, he will change/adapt and you will have to find a new way to deal with him.

[YouKnowWho]

just change his angle (be subtle, so you can deceive him) and let him pull himself off balance.

I certainly agree with "change the angle" strategy, but I'm not sure how you will be able to "deceive" him. Your intention can be listened clearly from the pulling by his Tinjin. In my personal experience, it's very difficult to "deceive" in that situation.


When the opponent pulls onto you, he is experiencing all the weaknesses as above that you can exploit.
Not sure what kind of weakness you are talking about here. Even if your opponent may lose his balance, he will still drag you down with him and that's called "pull guard" in BJJ.

I won't call "take advantage on body weight and gravity" as "weakness".

[nasmedicine]

If he realise he is losing, he will change/adapt and you will have to find a new way to deal with him.

Exactly, This is what I meant by "dance", ranging from gross to non-gross movement to barely conceivable movement (more Yi oriented) depending on how good your opponent is/ how much you want to show. Use your discretion and change/adapt to whatever your opponent is trying to do to you. Naturally he will try to fight the changes you are making to whatever it is that he is trying do, however this can be used against him.

[nasmedicine]

That's what I thought you were saying. If you can run faster than your opponent, even the best striker won't be able to hit you, and the best wrestler won't be able to take you down.

But you can't run away forever. Soon or later you have to stand on your ground and face the challenge.

It's not a matter of physical speed all the time (however it's nice to have), you should be faster on the micro level as well (ability for mind with body to process sudden changes in touch and proprioception). I keep saying this and will continue to repeat myself, Yi is a very important factor that needs to be trained in order to do well all the scenario's we are describing in this thread, without it one is purely mechanical at best.

[imperialtaichi]

I certainly agree with "change the angle" strategy, but I'm not sure how you will be able to "deceive" him. Your intention can be listened clearly from the pulling by his Tinjin. In my personal experience, it's very difficult to "deceive" in that situation.


Not sure what kind of weakness you are talking about here. Even if your opponent may lose his balance, he will still drag you down with him and that's called "pull guard" in BJJ.

I won't call "take advantage on body weight and gravity" as "weakness".

1. OK, I respect your experience. Everyone has their own experience.

2. Ok, If A then B; but If B then one can C..... soon we will run out of alphabets ;)

[nasmedicine]

I certainly agree with "change the angle" strategy, but I'm not sure how you will be able to "deceive" him. Your intention can be listened clearly from the pulling by his Tinjin. In my personal experience, it's very difficult to "deceive" in that situation.
".

If deceiving was easy then everybody would be doing it with ease. That's the whole point of training internal martial arts. Your strategy and technique is not what it seems. You feel like i'm using muscle but i'm using leverage. You feel I am trying to grab you but I'm trying to make you pull against my grab, You think I'm off balance but I'm actually balanced. It's all a huge deception. This give you the element of surprise and the other guys will not have time to readjust and this is where you have the upper hand. Personal experience aside, one can not assume anything unless they actually touch hands. Each opponent is different and should be treated as such.

[imperialtaichi]

If deceiving was easy then everybody would be doing it with ease. That's the whole point of training internal martial arts. Your strategy and technique is not what it seems. You feel like i'm using muscle but i'm using leverage. You feel I am trying to grab you but I'm trying to make you pull against my grab, You think I'm off balance but I'm actually balanced. It's all a huge deception. This give you the element of surprise and the other guys will not have time to readjust and this is where you have the upper hand. Personal experience aside, one can not assume anything unless they actually touch hands. Each opponent is different and should be treated as such.

A personal experience which made me understand deception:

A few years back, I took my students and a bunch of people to see Master Wei in Beijing. He demonstrated an "An/Push Down" energy on me. I was trying my best to fight back; I could feel no force on his hands, but the heavy forces were everywhere on top of me. I tried my best to resist but in the end I fell on my a$$.

One of my students videoed it; and when I watched it, I realised I was bending further and further backwards until I lost my balance and fell myself. While all along, when I was fighting back, I thought I was standing upright.

What Master Wei did, was somehow confusing all my senses until I lose my balance and fell on my own accord. The heavy forces I was feeling was my own body falling. He wasn't issuing power at all. He was playing with my Yi.

[nasmedicine]

A personal experience which made me understand deception:

A few years back, I took my students and a bunch of people to see Master Wei in Beijing. He demonstrated an "An/Push Down" energy on me. I was trying my best to fight back; I could feel no force on his hands, but the heavy forces were everywhere on top of me. I tried my best to resist but in the end I fell on my a$$.

One of my students videoed it; and when I watched it, I realised I was bending further and further backwards until I lost my balance and fell myself. While all along, when I was fighting back, I thought I was standing upright.

What Master Wei did, was somehow confusing all my senses until I lose my balance and fell on my own accord. The heavy forces I was feeling was my own body falling. He wasn't issuing power at all. He was playing with my Yi.

GREAT STORY! :) , As the saying goes, "you are your own worst enemy."

[LoneTiger108]

He wasn't issuing power at all. He was playing with my Yi.

Are you referring to your own 'will' here John? Because if, as a Martial Artist, you are allowing your own will to be influenced then you may have just been a pawn in a old masters illusion ;)

I have seen and experienced this a few times, but like all illusions if you know how it works and it makes total sense it is no longer magical.

[imperialtaichi]

Are you referring to your own 'will' here John? Because if, as a Martial Artist, you are allowing your own will to be influenced then you may have just been a pawn in a old masters illusion ;)

I have seen and experienced this a few times, but like all illusions if you know how it works and it makes total sense it is no longer magical.

Master Wei's words, "At top level, you don't borrow the opponent's force. Force is not even in the equation. You borrow the opponent's Yi Qi, and you fight the opponent's Yi Qi. But you can never borrow your opponent's Shen."

I don't think it is the will being manipulated, but intentions, perception and reflex. I would say, if during that incident my mind was just wandering and not focused, Master Wei would have used a different method the "An" me. But because I was focused on fighting back, he used my own intention against me.

You are right, once experienced it, it is absolutely no magic, but practical techniques that can be used in confrontations. Though in a less spectacular fashion.

Just this evening, I was showing a couple of guys from the University of Technology Sydney (UTS) how to destroy someone's balance without letting him know. An on-looker would just think that I was amazingly strong; but really I did not need to use much force to overcome someone if their balance is already gone.

[LoneTiger108]

Master Wei's words, "At top level, you don't borrow the opponent's force. Force is not even in the equation. You borrow the opponent's Yi Qi, and you fight the opponent's Yi Qi. But you can never borrow your opponent's Shen."

I don't think it is the will being manipulated, but intentions, perception and reflex.

Ah! That's what I thought you might mean.

I recognise two similar sounding words, Yee and Yi, one being the will/mind and the other being intent. We had a great line of kuit which mentions:

Yee Yi Ling Hei - Yi Hei San Ding
The minds intent leads the energy (Chi) - To have intended energy brightens the body

A bit 'classical' I know, but something that was shared back in my days when we created structured warm up routines and basic exercises to build specific Wing Chun core stamina!!

[Robinhood]

You may just make a simple combat scenario complicate. You either

1. resist against your opponent if you think you are stronger,
2. yield, stick, and follow your opponent if you want to borrow his force. or
3. reverse the situation and force your opponent to response to you instead.

All 3 solutions may work according to your skill level. IMO, it has to do with "strategy" but not much to do with "integrate body mind movements".

You give me the strategy, I change by your actions, if I can't adjust accordingly then I will be caught.

[nasmedicine]

The minds intent leads the energy (Chi)

That is the most important part. You need to be able to hide yours and at the same time manipulate your opponents. We train this in the way we chi sao and in the way we do our forms and non-form related movements.

[Robinhood]

You may just make a simple combat scenario complicate. You either

1. resist against your opponent if you think you are stronger,
2. yield, stick, and follow your opponent if you want to borrow his force. or
3. reverse the situation and force your opponent to response to you instead.

All 3 solutions may work according to your skill level. IMO, it has to do with "strategy" but not much to do with "integrate body mind movements".

Instead of trying to out run run your opponent and take some kind of action you might try meeting yang with yin and meeting yin with yang and see what that gets you.