The current status and future of Wushu [Archive]

ShaolinDan

01-09-2012, 09:09 AM

It would be nice if martial elements were a bigger part of the scoring...there must be something to separate modern Wushu from gymnastics and dance to make it really worth developing.
Still, performance Wushu has raised the bar for athleticism among martial artists (and probably has been for centuries), so that's a good thing. As long as traditional practice is also kept alive (and I believe it will be), I have no problems with the performance aspects.

David Jamieson

01-09-2012, 09:44 AM

Jimbo

01-09-2012, 09:56 AM

I read somewhere that modern wushu is no longer very popular in China. It's more popular than 'traditional', but that most young people are more interested in other things. I'm betting its exclusion from becoming an official Olympic sport has only added to that.

IMO, modern wushu is a good athletic challenge for those who like a standardized performing art. I'm not sure it translates better into 'movie fu', it depends on the person, the director, etc. There is a sameness to all the performances, which for some people is a plus, since there are clear levels. OTOH, wushu overload can become boring after awhile.

I consider wushu as a purely athletic pursuit that should/must be started young, and the performer's ability peaks, then begins to deteriorate at a young age. This is due to the unnatural and extra-difficult aspects being emphasized (nan du).

Ray Pina

01-10-2012, 10:48 AM

Wushu (martially) stinks. Going to continue to stink.

David Jamieson

01-10-2012, 11:43 AM

your opinion is noted. lol

YouKnowWho

01-10-2012, 12:21 PM

Wushu (martially) stinks. Going to continue to stink.

At least we agree on this issue.

To me, stink is still too friendly word. I had met many TCMA teachers in China. They had to teach Wushu because no students wanted to learn TCMA from them. Wushu will kill TCMA if we don't stop it. I had told The Chairman of the National Wushu Committee Hsu Tzi that as long as I live, I will do my best to stop Whshu from entering Olympic game. I could still remember his face turned into green color when I said that during the 1st Jinan TCMA tournament in 1991.

wenshu

01-10-2012, 12:35 PM

I think it can be added as another form of gymnastics.
they already have the ball play and the ribbon play and hoop play.
Why not include wushu in these types of floor routines?

performance wushu isn't of much value as actual martial training goes, but aesthetically it's nice to watch and has value in that respect. Also, it maps over into movie fu better and allows for more interesting shots with less close ups and post edits to make fights look cool.

Wushu is a combination of Figure Skating, Rhythmic Gymnastics and Toddlers & Tiaras.

*Strikes dramatic pose

Also, it makes movie choreography look like crap. How many times do I want to watch the same fight sequences over and over again? It's too standardized, too common.

I read somewhere that modern wushu is no longer very popular in China. It's more popular than 'traditional', but that most young people are more interested in other things. I'm betting its exclusion from becoming an official Olympic sport has only added to that.

From speaking with some native Chinese not otherwise involved in martial arts I've also heard this. The younger generation isn't into it at all.

David Jamieson

01-10-2012, 12:38 PM

At least we agree on this issue.

To me, stink is still too friendly word. Wushu will kill TCMA if we don't stop it. I had told The Chairman of the National Wushu Committee Hsu Tzi that as long as I live, I will do my best to stop Whshu from entering Olympic game. I could still remember his face turned into green color when I said that during the 1st Jinan TCMA tournament in 1991.

Kill it?

I don't think so. I think modern wushu will simply be what it is.

If your kung fu is good and produces benefits and you pass it to someone else, it'll be fine.

wushu has zero effect on my practice.
mma has zero effect on my practice.

they're there I can visit if i like, or not. :)

ginosifu

01-10-2012, 01:35 PM

Kill it?

I don't think so. I think modern wushu will simply be what it is.

If your kung fu is good and produces benefits and you pass it to someone else, it'll be fine.

wushu has zero effect on my practice.
mma has zero effect on my practice.

they're there I can visit if i like, or not. :)

YouKnowWho:

Modern Wushu has no bearing on tradtional kung fu. If you look at it closely enough you will see that it is a different animal altogether. It is a Martial Sport, where I do no look at TCMA as Martial Sport.

When they were creating Wushu they took many of the Martial aspects oout in lew of more acrobatic and gymnastic techniques. They modeled it after Olympic Gymanstic floor routine as to set it up for future placement in the Olympics. (Note how that did not work so well). They forgot to teach this Wushu to the rest of the world so they would have someone to compete against.

ginosifu

ps John ... it's just a sport like gymnastics.

GeneChing

01-10-2012, 02:46 PM

Wushu is just the most recent permutation. Honestly, those of you who see modern wushu and traditional kung fu as black and white really haven't examined either that closely. Sure, there's a lot of flowery fists in modern wushu (and for convenience, we're speaking strictly about taolu here), even mores so now with nandu. But that has always been an integral part of kung fu. It's performance too. In Lorge's new book, Chinese Martial Arts (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62608), he finds evidence of martial dances as far back as the Warring States period (475 to 221 BCE). Martial dances appear across many cultures, not just Chinese. You'll find them in Europe, the Americas, Africa, pretty much in every traditional culture.

Don't let the current MMA cage your mind as to what kung fu is.

LFJ

01-10-2012, 02:55 PM

Don't let the current MMA cage your mind as to what kung fu is.

Nice one. :cool:

bawang

01-10-2012, 02:57 PM

David Jamieson

01-10-2012, 03:04 PM

traditional performance shows MANLINESS and instill fear.

Time and effort with purpose and intention show manliness. Fear instills fear. :p

Lucas

01-10-2012, 03:19 PM

squats....

wenshu

01-10-2012, 04:01 PM

I want to imagine that many people died violent deaths during those ancient martial dances and people still talked **** about how weak it was.

GeneChing

01-10-2012, 06:43 PM

Honestly, I've never quite understood why practitioners get their panties in such a bunch over dancers in martial arts. I'd watch dancers in anything: ballet, ballroom, hip hop, pole... why wouldn't I enjoy martial dancing too?

I think we all need to take 4 min. T.O. and watch this: Sword Bellydance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJWdPAGWOf8)

David Jamieson

01-10-2012, 07:13 PM

I want to imagine that many people died violent deaths during those ancient martial dances and people still talked **** about how weak it was.

Yes, this would comfort me as well, in the knowledge that no matter how much things changed, they stayed the same. :p

Ray Pina

01-11-2012, 07:14 AM

At least we agree on this issue.

Wushu will kill TCMA if we don't stop it. I had told The Chairman of the National Wushu Committee Hsu Tzi that as long as I live, I will do my best to stop Whshu from entering Olympic game. I could still remember his face turned into green color when I said that during the 1st Jinan TCMA tournament in 1991.

I honestly think TCMA is already dead.

There are enough existing remnants, where worthwhile technologies can be kept and combined with more modern training to create something new but to keep going in its current direction is poison.

Wushu in the Olympics..... for me.... fine! It's no different than gymnastics floor routine. I do not view TCMA, in its current format, as a martial art. And the only thing that would change that opinion for me would be some of these TCMA styles producing competitive fighters.

Not everyone needs to fight. But at least 2% ( 2 out of 100) of all the students worldwide should be able to compete. So many discussions on this board and it comes down to the very basic and simple: if TCMA was working, alive, we'd see it. It would be producing quality international fighters like boxing, kick boxing, Thai Boxing, BJJ, Judo, wrestling, fencing....

No fighters from a martial art system = system is dead.

David Jamieson

01-11-2012, 07:18 AM

No fighters from a martial art system = system is dead.

Are you saying the Danish Army is dead?
Are you saying the French couldn't mount a battle plan?

What about Buddhist martial arts?

No competitive fighters = system is dead? Sure if it's a competitive fighting style designed for that.

Otherwise, your premise is incorrect. I'm surprised you can't bridge the diversities and fail to understand value of things from all directions.

P.S it is my view that many people get into wrestling arts because they can't handle being punched in the face or the guts. This after many years of watching that happen again and again.

Snipsky

01-11-2012, 07:48 AM

I honestly think TCMA is already dead.

There are enough existing remnants, where worthwhile technologies can be kept and combined with more modern training to create something new but to keep going in its current direction is poison.

Wushu in the Olympics..... for me.... fine! It's no different than gymnastics floor routine. I do not view TCMA, in its current format, as a martial art. And the only thing that would change that opinion for me would be some of these TCMA styles producing competitive fighters.

Not everyone needs to fight. But at least 2% ( 2 out of 100) of all the students worldwide should be able to compete. So many discussions on this board and it comes down to the very basic and simple: if TCMA was working, alive, we'd see it. It would be producing quality international fighters like boxing, kick boxing, Thai Boxing, BJJ, Judo, wrestling, fencing....

No fighters from a martial art system = system is dead.

It's QUITE obvious no one really cares about your opinion of TMA. you are no better than TMA because you are not doing anything to change it. b1tch b1tch b1tch. this is all you are known for. thats sad to say cause no one seems to be impressed with your fighting. LOL

SPJ

01-11-2012, 08:16 AM

lei tai is from time so long ago.

most prominent time is from song dynasty. the government army was purposely weakened. civilian and local militia trained themself especially along the border towns.

from republican era, there is the kuo shu lei tai

even today it is still going on,

in addition to taolu, there is also san shou from wushu programs.

kuo shu lei tai

and wushu san shou are there for all to compete.

every one good luck at london 2012 summer olympics.

after a while, yes everyone is bored with taolu.

big fan for belly dancing

no boredom there for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weRHyjj34ZE

:)

Yao Sing

01-11-2012, 10:24 AM

wenshu

01-11-2012, 12:06 PM

Blah, blah, blah, and the best fighter in the world is the one with the championship belt. Surely he could beat all the special forces, Navy SEALs, etc. under any and all conditions.

BECAUSE HE COMPETED AND WON A SANCTIONED SPORTING EVENT!

Get it now everyone? Sport Rulz!

War is just competition with more ultimate consequences.

Conversely. . .

TCMA is not dead. Who else can rapidly aging MMA club fighters and lazy minded wannabes vent their frustrations on whenever they are feeling down on themselves because they can't stick to a diet plan and are still stinging from humiliation at the hands of good old fashioned Hong Kong con men?

Wing Chun, that's who!

hskwarrior

01-11-2012, 12:22 PM

TCMA is not dead. Who else can rapidly aging MMA club fighters and lazy minded wannabes vent their frustrations on whenever they are feeling down on themselves because they can't stick to a diet plan and are still stinging from humiliation at the hands of good old fashioned Hong Kong con men?

TMA will NEVER DIE. why? because TMA is about more than just fighting. I have no more time to explain to hard headed people why. Those who know....know. those who don't will b1tch and complain about this or that.

TMA'tists can continue what they're doing long after a fighter has to quit fighting.
TMA is way more than just beating someone down. for one, its part of the Chinese culture. Fighting has no other culture other than violence.

its never gonna be enough to get it in the heads of BRICK HEADS about there are people who like to fight and to do so legally they join MMA. There are others who don't like to fight but CAN FIGHT and has effectively done so throughout his life. Not everyone is a competitor. martial arts is and was always a personal thing. fighting is only ONE aspect of TMA. Same thing as lion dancing. its only one aspect of TCMA. but how can people mock something they know they can't do themselves? i can understand if someone watch lion dancing once and picked it up completely on the first attempt. i know they won't.

sport fighting will die long before TMA will ever die.

Neeros

01-11-2012, 12:26 PM

I consider wushu as a purely athletic pursuit that should/must be started young, and the performer's ability peaks, then begins to deteriorate at a young age. This is due to the unnatural and extra-difficult aspects being emphasized (nan du).

This is the worst thing about Wushu without a doubt in my opinion. Whereas with traditional kung fu, one doesn't even peak at all. It just gets better and better as you age. :D

hskwarrior

01-11-2012, 12:28 PM

"nan du" like the way i du it!!!! :D

David Jamieson

01-11-2012, 12:40 PM

This is the worst thing about Wushu without a doubt in my opinion. Whereas with traditional kung fu, one doesn't even peak at all. It just gets better and better as you age. :D

better? I don't know, but definitely tastes just as good on the last bite you take as the first one your took. :)

In my opinion, there are two guidelines to making Kung Fu integral to your life:

1. Begin

2. Continue

Yao Sing

01-11-2012, 02:05 PM

sport fighting will die long before TMA will ever die.

No, some form of sport fighting will always be around. Just the specifics change dending on public needs. Ancient societies had wrestling matches and violent contests. Even the gladiator fights were considered sport in their day.

As a side note I believe the Report From Iron Mountain made reference to the need for some type of violence ritual in society and the rise of MMA seems to fit the bill. I think it was supposed to be a replacement for war but wars are still going on so I guess they've gone off script. :eek:

hskwarrior

01-11-2012, 02:18 PM

Even the gladiator fights were considered sport in their day.

once MMA dies down, what do you feel will be the next big thing?

firepalm

01-11-2012, 02:35 PM

hskwarrior

01-11-2012, 02:44 PM

ohhhhhhhh, the drama......pronounced "drawmah".......

not bad, for a performance art group

wenshu

01-11-2012, 03:11 PM

If you disliked what the Wushu people have been doing in the past not sure how most of you will react to the newest thing in Wushu?

Dramatic Scenarios fight routines
http://i.youku.com/u/id_UMTU5MzAzNTgw.html
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzQwNzA2NTY0.html

That there is some fancy walking.

You know how sometimes wushu players will use chalk or baking soda in their sleeves, pant cuffs and on the insteps of their shoes to create a dramatic effect when they slap kick and all that?

They should start using glitter. Xuanzi zhuanti into ce kong fan into xuan feng jiao POW! glitter bomb. Sparkly dramatic pose.

I mean, if you're already affecting effeminate mannerisms while wearing pastel colored silk, might as well go for the full ****.

Jimbo

01-11-2012, 03:31 PM

TMA will NEVER DIE. why? because TMA is about more than just fighting. I have no more time to explain to hard headed people why. Those who know....know. those who don't will b1tch and complain about this or that.

TMA'tists can continue what they're doing long after a fighter has to quit fighting.
TMA is way more than just beating someone down. for one, its part of the Chinese culture. Fighting has no other culture other than violence.

its never gonna be enough to get it in the heads of BRICK HEADS about there are people who like to fight and to do so legally they join MMA. There are others who don't like to fight but CAN FIGHT and has effectively done so throughout his life. Not everyone is a competitor. martial arts is and was always a personal thing. fighting is only ONE aspect of TMA. Same thing as lion dancing. its only one aspect of TCMA. but how can people mock something they know they can't do themselves? i can understand if someone watch lion dancing once and picked it up completely on the first attempt. i know they won't.

Agreed. Some people believe that all others must train for the same reason(s) that they themselves train, and every other reason is stup!d. The fact is, everyone who trains has their own purposes for doing so. And I see nothing wrong with that. I personally never cared for lion dance and have never done it; yet I give credit to those who do it and enjoy it. Nothing is as easy as it looks.

As for wushu's future, esp. taolu, I doubt there's much of one in China. There's probably more people outside of China who like it. I think wushu's popularity saw its heyday in the 1980s and has declined since then. Similar to what wenshu mentioned earlier, most Chinese I've spoken to (regarding these things) don't seem to care at all about MA in general and CMA in particular. Many act embarrassed by or ignorant of it, and it's certainly not a high priority like a high education or learning piano/violin, etc. Most will not view either wushu or CMA as a valid or lucrative career option; thus, not an activity worth pursuing.

GeneChing

01-11-2012, 03:38 PM

Wushu takes a lot of its posturing from classical Chinese opera. If you've ever watched that stuff, you can see how one aspect of performance integrated into kung fu. We ran an article on this in our 2009 May/June issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=819): A Day at the Beijing Opera: An Analysis of the Wushu and Acrobatic Skills of Beijing Opera By Emilio Alpanseque

I love the fight scenes in Beijing Opera. There's some amazing stuff, especially in Monkey King. That's some 200+ years of tradition pouring into kung fu. I just can't hang with pentatonic scale for too long. :o

Here's a taste: Beijing Opera 京劇 A Monkey King 孫悟空 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VOCDFIW4xg)

I think most people muddle traditional kung fu vs. modern wushu with performance vs. combat effectiveness. Clearly, there is performance in traditional. There is also combat effectiveness in modern wushu too, but you really got to dig for it, and for most practitioners, it's just not worth it.

Neeros

01-11-2012, 04:14 PM

once MMA dies down, what do you feel will be the next big thing?

Midget mud wrestling. tbh

hskwarrior

01-11-2012, 04:21 PM

Midget mud wrestling. tbh

sexy midgets...gotta love em

Yao Sing

01-11-2012, 04:46 PM

When I was in China the big thing was ballroom dancing, forget the Kung Fu. But at the same time no matter where you go you can find someone in a park that knows something. But you have to bust out a form first to get them to come forward.

In Shanghai 1998 we were practicing the seminar form in a parking lot when a guy riding by on a bicycle going to work saw us and stopped. Turned out he knew the set we just learned and trained with the Master when he was younger. And the Master teaching the seminar came in by train and wasn't even from the area. Pretty good for a few billion people.

Yao Sing

01-11-2012, 04:54 PM

Oh yeah, then there's this (http://www.kungfufemmes.com/liveshows.html).

AJM

01-12-2012, 04:42 PM

I just read a good article from JAMA

"Wushu's transformation from local boxing ring to the world stage"

What is your oppinion on this matter?

:)
It died decades ago.

Dragonzbane76

01-12-2012, 07:32 PM

P.S it is my view that many people get into wrestling arts because they can't handle being punched in the face or the guts. This after many years of watching that happen again and again.

I can see why you would say that, but IMO its not. Some people gravitate towards the grappling aspects of arts, myself included. It's in my nature and I feel more comfortable in that range. I've been punched in the gut and face on many occations and probably like it as well as the next guy in line. No one likes to take one like that but it's part of the game. Most of the people that get into the wrestling/grappling arts tend like the controlling aspect of it. To me it's just another area to train in that is crucial, but it's also one that I am more proficient in.

Another thing you see in that area is bigger guys. Not all mind you but a higher percentage. I would venture to say that strength is an applicable outlet in it. And being bigger has it's benifits when doing wrestling/grappling.

But I get what your saying, but again I would say that some just gravitate towards it for the body structure they hold and their comfort level in it.

PalmStriker

01-12-2012, 10:19 PM

So who's ready to hold their face out for a wushu SPINNING MONKEY-FIST to the forehead !?!

YouKnowWho

01-12-2012, 10:41 PM

Here are TCMA front kick and modern Wushu front kick. Will you be able to see any major difference there?

You may see that the TCMA way is a "downward" curve, and the modern Wushu is an "upward" curve.

The TCMA way is not just bend your leg, fold your upper leg and lower leg, and then straight it out. It's much more complicate than that. If you look at the toe (or instep), it's always remain a perfect "straight line (or downward curve)".

TCMA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt83nvRwq-4

Modern Wushu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-0gF_Y2keE&feature=relmfu

David Jamieson

01-13-2012, 05:52 AM

That there is some fancy walking.

You know how sometimes wushu players will use chalk or baking soda in their sleeves, pant cuffs and on the insteps of their shoes to create a dramatic effect when they slap kick and all that?

They should start using glitter. Xuanzi zhuanti into ce kong fan into xuan feng jiao POW! glitter bomb. Sparkly dramatic pose.

I mean, if you're already affecting effeminate mannerisms while wearing pastel colored silk, might as well go for the full ****.

Call me pretentious and haughty, but this made me almost choke on my triple mocha latte! :p

William123

01-13-2012, 10:58 AM

In Lorge's new book, Chinese Martial Arts, he finds evidence of martial dances as far back as the Warring States period (475 to 221 BCE). Martial dances appear across many cultures, not just Chinese. You'll find them in Europe, the Americas, Africa, pretty much in every traditional culture.

Martial elements have inspired other cultural expressions; call it literature, dancing, theater etc. However there is a big difference between those and Martial oriented practices, where the goal is to fight (battle field or self defense). Just because armies participate in parades or demonstrations, do this means that their main purpose is to show off or look pretty? Military dances were use in different social outlet such as ceremonies, but they had a practical purpose, as a way of training fighting skills. This might be the earliest form of routines/taolu practice.

Routines in the army is a way to train large groups of people, where you can gauge the level of development of the soldiers without taking too much time. Of course routines must be followed by applications and free fighting practice. This is quite different from modern/competition wushu. Wushu separates taolu, practiced without applications and following the Olympic motto "Citius, Altius, Fortius.", which explains the inclusion of "nandu” (difficult movements) all of which are aesthetics. Even Sanshou has no connection with taolu practice. What is the point to train one way but fight in another way. If one has to do that then there is a serious problem with the skills being practice.

Independent scholars in China and the west have pointed out this and other issues with the current wushu/sanshou practice. If one claim to train MARTIAL arts then you better know how to hold your own, otherwise there is no substance.

Lucas

01-13-2012, 12:11 PM

This might be the earliest form of routines/taolu practice.

also in regards to actual warriors performing an arangement of martial techniques in a personally developed pattern, the records of the grand historian are full of examples of accomplished warriors performing sword dances.

now this is not the same as the modern equivelant, but it is definately evidence that this tradition is far older than even empty hand martial sets.

in addition, this is not a tradition that is held only in china/asia, but is also found in the mediterranean, africa, the native americas and europe as well.

GeneChing

01-13-2012, 12:43 PM

That was a great gig. When it comes to figuring out how best to balance a shamshir on a woman's hip, there's just no substitute for experience. :)

The word for martial (wu 武) is a ****phone for the word for dance (wu 舞). It's a point that most any CMa researcher has come across and is well reiterated by Lorge. Like I've said earlier, I've never had issues with martial dancers. I tell ya, working with those belly dancers sold me over. But seriously, dance is great. The only issue I have is with martial dancers who claim they are fighters. I have issues there in the same way I have issues with anyone who make false or deluded claims. But that's a separate issue entirely. For the martial arts to grow, we need to embrace all of our permutations. It's not just about who can beat down who in the cage. Kung fu is about hard earned skill. Fighting skill is just one aspect of it. Certainly all martial arts should be rooted in martial skills, but I'm not about to exclude dancers. They make better movies. ;)

Coincidentally, we just had the Beijing Wushu Team in our studio yesterday. They were a great group of young athletes - fun, friendly, enthusiastic and in fantastic condition. They weren't fighters, although I wouldn't write them off entirely. They were fast and accurate in peak physical condition, highly competitive, and given a sharp, many of them could get the job done.

Dragonzbane76

01-13-2012, 01:24 PM

Coincidentally, we just had the Beijing Wushu Team in our studio yesterday. They were a great group of young athletes - fun, friendly, enthusiastic and in fantastic condition. They weren't fighters, although I wouldn't write them off entirely. They were fast and accurate in peak physical condition, highly competitive, and given a sharp, many of them could get the job done

When I think of wushu I think of Pro wrestling. yeah it's fake and the guys really can't fight ( well most of them) it's about entertainment. Wushu is something along those line to me. It's entertaining to watch, the guys are athletic to do some of that stuff, but in the end is that real fighting NO. Same as in Pro wrestling is that fighting and would that work probably not.

William123

01-13-2012, 01:39 PM

For the martial arts to grow, we need to embrace all of our permutations. It's not just about who can beat down who in the cage. Kung fu is about hard earned skill. Fighting skill is just one aspect of it. Certainly all martial arts should be rooted in martial skills, but I'm not about to exclude dancers. They make better movies. ;)

The biggest problem I see is that all the other non martial aspects of today’s "martial" expressions are polluting what in the past were survival skills. No wonder many of today’s "masters" are reverse engineering, inventing or plainly ignoring the applications of what they teach. At this rate we can kiss TCMA goodbye.

Cheers,

wenshu

01-13-2012, 01:59 PM

When I think of wushu I think of Pro wrestling. yeah it's fake and the guys really can't fight ( well most of them) it's about entertainment. Wushu is something along those line to me. It's entertaining to watch, the guys are athletic to do some of that stuff, but in the end is that real fighting NO. Same as in Pro wrestling is that fighting and would that work probably not.

Funny you say that because one of the conversations I referenced earlier about Wushu's declining popularity in China made this same comparison.

OK. There's wushu and then there's Wushu.

The problem I have is with capital w "Wushu". The over sanitized, figure skating on carpet Wushu. It is not purely the performance aspect I have a problem with. It's that it is all the same; from the choreography to the individual movements to the facial expressions to the increasing femininity. Take ten top level competitors and they all do every single movement exactly the same, no variation, no flavor. Maybe they might mix up the order of the nandu in a routine, or add an extra spin but that's it.

I've started recognizing group choreography lifted from the Beijing wushu team performed by American performers and I don't even watch that much Wushu.

Lucas

01-13-2012, 02:07 PM

The only issue I have is with martial dancers who claim they are fighters.

what about fighters claiming they are dancers??

GeneChing

01-13-2012, 02:50 PM

what about fighters claiming they are dancers?? Like Chuck Liddell (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55016)? ;)

When I first came of drinking age, I was heavy into Pro Wrasslin'. This was prior to the WWE, back the the good ol' daze of NWA and AWA. Perhaps that betrays my inclination. I'm easily entertained by mock violence.

I've never sympathized with the position that TCMA will die because of the influence of modern wushu. There will always be people who want to fight. Always. Anyone who propounds TCMA earnestly get to the root of it and practice what works. Any TCMA exponent who to blames modern wushu for watering down TCMA is just being ridiculous. Never mind what other people are practicing. Focus on what you are practicing. If your TCMA lacks fighting skills, the only person to blame is yourself. You shouldn't expect others to maintain the practice. The martial arts maintain a DIY philosophy.

Lucas

01-13-2012, 03:55 PM

LOL precisely!!

You make an excellent point Gene. It's always been ironic to me that TCMAists believe/complain that modern wushu will destroy TCMA. The only way that could happen is if the very people complaining are taking part in that destructive process.

So if you think contemporary wushu will hurt tcma, then ask yourself how much you are contributing to the proper development of wushu compared to how much you contribute to the development of modern performance martial arts.

stick that in your pipe an smoke it!!
:p

William123

01-13-2012, 05:02 PM

Like Chuck Liddell (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55016)? ;)

When I first came of drinking age, I was heavy into Pro Wrasslin'. This was prior to the WWE, back the the good ol' daze of NWA and AWA. Perhaps that betrays my inclination. I'm easily entertained by mock violence.

I've never sympathized with the position that TCMA will die because of the influence of modern wushu. There will always be people who want to fight. Always. Anyone who propounds TCMA earnestly get to the root of it and practice what works. Any TCMA exponent who to blames modern wushu for watering down TCMA is just being ridiculous. Never mind what other people are practicing. Focus on what you are practicing. If your TCMA lacks fighting skills, the only person to blame is yourself. You shouldn't expect others to maintain the practice. The martial arts maintain a DIY philosophy.

Ridiculous is to think that mixing dancing, movie style wushu and flowery crap into CMA to attract customers is not affecting them in any way. The party's version of CMA takes away from those who want to teach the real deal (not that there are many left anyway). How many people join clubs based on what they see in the movies or wushu competitions, it looks cool sure and...? The market for TCMA is shrinking and then came MMA, nuff said. Luckily Shaolin Monastery still preserves the original practices eh? ;)
And yes I am doing my part, you?

kristcaldwell

01-13-2012, 06:13 PM

i have to echo gene's sentiments that blaming wushu for traditional falling out of style is ridiculous (and childish, as far as i am concerned). as someone who has practiced both art forms for a number of years, i can say that there is a distinctly different crowd in each camp. wushu is primarily young athletes in the college age-range, while traditionalists often consists of a more broad range of ages, lifestyles (everything from new-agers to "glorified kick boxers") and a lower athletic ability (honestly, i'm willing to bet that more than half the people on this forum [or in this discussion, for that matter] couldn't take a good bowel movement without getting winded).

saying that one takes away from another is like blaming baseball for taking athletes away from basketball.

GeneChing

01-13-2012, 06:23 PM

Didn't I say that already? Movies are new. That's only been the last few decades. Videogames are even newer. I imagine they've had some impact. I remember after Crouching Tiger came out, I had a student ask me, in all seriousness, when we were going to learn how to fly. Of course, that was over a decade ago now.

Actually, from the inside, TCMA is not shrinking. It's not really growing, but it's not really shrinking either. The market is about the same as it ever was, barring that huge boost we got back in the Bruce Lee days. I'm not sure where that myth got started. Karate is shrinking. TKD is about the same. MMA is growing, obviously. This is based on seeing accounts from Tiger Claw (https://www.tigerclaw.com/home.php), which is one of the nation's largest suppliers to schools and stores. The economy has been hard on martial arts schools across the board, but in terms of proportional slices of the pie, TCMA certainly isn't shrinking, once you adjust for the general recession.

I will say that the most detrimental effect modern wushu has had on TCMA has been weapons manufacturing. Now, the bulk of the market is skewed towards wushu weapons. As a weapons maker myself, that sucks. There are still some really fine high-end pieces, even better quality than previously, but the market isn't supporting them as much as it is going for cheap weapons. This is exacerbated by the growing economic strength of China, which is where the bulk of martial arts weapons for all styles are made nowadays. I'm hoping that when the economy improves, we'll see a swing back.

kristcaldwell

01-13-2012, 06:36 PM

the most recent duan system propounded by the IWuF requires the talou practitioner to demonstrate a certain number of applications per routine to achieve ranking...but i'm sure most of you knew that ;)

Dragonzbane76

01-13-2012, 10:59 PM

requires the talou practitioner to demonstrate a certain number of applications per routine to achieve ranking

and how are they performing these "demonstrations?" I mean to say is are they performing them in resistance?

kristcaldwell

01-13-2012, 11:20 PM

it seems like a loaded question when you refer to the applications as "demonstrations" (or, preconceived at the very least). i would say that the applications are done much in the same way as those who have been villifying wushu would practice them.

Dragonzbane76

01-14-2012, 06:38 AM

it seems like a loaded question when you refer to the applications as "demonstrations" (or, preconceived at the very least)

I'm not the one whom used the term first. you did.

requires the talou practitioner to demonstrate a certain number of applications per routine to achieve ranking

I'm not "villifying" anything. You stated they demonstrated techniques. I asked how do they do this. With a compliant partner, or in a resistant environment?

rovere

01-14-2012, 01:21 PM

The term wushu originally meant military art and is made up up two parts. One part is the character for ge (halbred) and the other is to stop. (In oracle bone text this part and corresponding character was actually the verb to run.)

The ge is strictly a military weapon (never employed by civilians) and the character is found both in oracle bone inscriptions and bronzes. The combination of the two parts of ‘wu’ can be interpreted in several ways such as using the military to stop insurrection or using the military to stop invasion and so on. The verb to run also refers to the infantry.

Wu is definitely in the realm of the military and would not refer to civilians practicing martial arts nor would it refer to dance :D .There are other characters that would be used to represent these activities.

In Chinese ****phones are common so I wouldn't make to much of a deal about the similarity in sounds. There may be an anthropological connection (e.g. both movement that may have ritualistic looking actions) but different root meanings to the actual words.

GeneChing

01-16-2012, 10:43 AM

For as long as wu (武) has been translated into English, we've been told the 'stop the spear' origin of the root radicals of the character. It's one of our most commonly held beliefs. However, most calligraphy scholars dispute this now.

The component radical zhi (止) means 'stop'. This was stated by King Chu in the Spring Autumn period (770-476 BCE) as documented in Shouwen Jiezi by Xu Chen (d. 147 CE). Recent archeological discoveries of early Chinese writings have shows that the character radical descends from 'foot' not 'stop', thus implying marching. Some of the oldest calligraphic findings imply that wu was comprised of three radicals: weapon, foot and crossroads. Now many scholars believe that the origin of the character wu was changed to 'stop the spear' for political reasons. The original meaning may well have been 'marching with weapons'.

For more, see:
Wu Qi: Combat Energy - The Chinese Concept of Wu By Adrian Chan-Wyles Ph. D 2006 January/February (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=632)
Jia Gu Wen Zidian by Xu Zhongsu
Wenzi Yuanliu Qianshou by Lian Yin

kristcaldwell

01-16-2012, 09:27 PM

dang, you totally nailed me...i guess i'm just a bit sensitive with all the wushu bashing on here. i wasn't referring to you when i mentioned the wushu "villifying", i was referring to the previous posts.

the applications are demonstrated in the same manner as Ed Parker Kenpo self-defense technniques are done (i don't let this out much, but i used to be a kenpo instructor). if anything, i consider it a step up by the IWuF. also, they require a written exam on the history of wushu and WuDe. the way i see it, they're finally moving back to the origins of wushu - and i think many (if not most) traditional schools are lacking such requirements.

i trained at a chin woo school in the US, and all that was required for advancement was being able to perform the next routine in the curriculum (i always asked about applications and many times the instructor either didn't know one or gave me something absolutely farcical). hopefully, modern and traditional wushu will eventually meet each other in the middle and promote CMA as a whole...with so much in-fighting, this would something that has been missing in the CMA community.

rovere

01-17-2012, 09:54 AM

The radical is 'foot'. Originally the character related to marching, running or walking on guard duty - therefore the verb to 'run' and only later changed to 'stop'.

Some have made the argument that in defensive position, the foot was used to steady the ge in the ground to defend against a chariot or mass attack - the foot acting like a wedge. So this is where the 'stop' verb came from but I have not been able to verify that part of the 'story'.

I have been told by some ninjitsu practitioners and others that it refers to, as you have said stopping the spear - but the character for ge is definitely not a 'spear'; or axe; or sword; or... and the origin is definitely the other way around. That is using the military to stop something...

When I was doing oracle bone translation in graduate school (almost 35 years ago and now and I remember very little) the military connection to 'wu' was well known.

GeneChing

01-17-2012, 10:09 AM

"Stopping the spear" is a rather colloquial translation, but accordingly, very common. It should really be ge as you say, but then you have to translate ge, which sort of defeats the attempt to translate wu. I suppose you could go with 'stopping the pole arm' or 'stopping the dagger axe' but both are rather clunky. Of course, as any sinophile knows, the ge carries a ton of historically implicative baggage - most significantly that it was a weapon of warfare, not a personal arm. Such is Chinese translation, as I'm sure you know. It's the ol' Chinese box of translation - a pervasive problem with CMA.

I've also heard some people say that the foot implied that the spear...sorry the ge :o ... was being trod on, thus reiterating the notion of stopping it. That's similar to your wedge story. I'm personally a little skeptical that my foot could wedge a ge against a chariot charge, but that's another tangent.

I must say that I've always favored the notion that the meaning was changed by King Chu for political reasons. That's just sooooooo Chinese. Sure, it may have been two-and-a-half millennia ago, and my notion of what is Chinese now has little bearing on what it may have been then, but such is my bias. ;)

rovere

01-17-2012, 10:50 AM

I guess I wasn't clear. The shaft end of the ge was planted in the ground and then the foot was placed on top of it to keep it from lifting up - using the body weight as a counter force; not as I implied wedging the end against the foot. Anyhow I'm still not convinced since there were strategies with shields that were used to upset and overturn the chariots (which as it turned out were not, by many accounts that effective.)

Politics make much more sense as even in Shang times.