Wing Chun is not a Defensive Art

[Yoshiyahu]

Look at this clip...We see the guy doing WC defensively trying to counter the kickboxer power kicks. Now not taking anything away from WC he has some good use of guards and good defenses against the kick boxer. In my opinion he lacks one fatal flaw...

The Push(aggression)...

the WC priniple is to attack first to gain control and continously and persistently attack your opponent to gain entry so he cant withstand you.

The WC guy just waits for his opponent to join with him so he can attack. He blocks then attack. Instead of attacking and defending simultaneously.


Wing Chun guy gets owned video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH0cjMNVbfs&feature=related)

what do you think

[Robinhood]

Look at this clip...We see the guy doing WC defensively trying to counter the kickboxer power kicks. Now not taking anything away from WC he has some good use of guards and good defenses against the kick boxer. In my opinion he lacks one fatal flaw...

The Push(aggression)...

the WC priniple is to attack first to gain control and continously and persistently attack your opponent to gain entry so he cant withstand you.

The WC guy just waits for his opponent to join with him so he can attack. He blocks then attack. Instead of attacking and defending simultaneously.


Wing Chun guy gets owned video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH0cjMNVbfs&feature=related)

what do you think

All complete ARTS use defense and offense at close to same time, it just depends on the level of the practitioner whether they can apply it.

Most people only do half the arts because that is there level, it takes at lot more skill to add defense to your offense, so people usually end up only doing offense vs offense, like yang meets yang and the stronger faster will have an advantage and that is not a real MA.

Plus putting gloves on a WC guy will not enhance his art, only turn him into a boxer.

[wingchunIan]

don't think you can blame the gloves. Anyone who adopts a pose like that shows me that he's got no real fight experience. He lost the fight at the floor. He was too stiff, too rigid and had no footwork so was a sitting duck. Can't say the rules helped though with only light contact to the head. Still all that said fair play to him for being prepared to get on the mat and fight.

[anerlich]

WC can be adapted to work with gloves. Some WC training buds of mine get on just fine with them in competitions, and my instructor had 37 successful pro kickboxing matches and many more amateur matches with them. Alan Orr's guys don't seem to have a problem either.

To be fair to the WC guy in the clip, his opponent went on to become one of the better local kickboxers of his time (Dominic Deligny). He also has a considerable reach advantage.

He was basically an amateur practising a non-tournament style going up against a budding champion who trained for the competition arena. No disgrace IMO.

<insert well-worn Teddy Roosevelt quote here>

[Ozzy Dave]

putting gloves on a WC guy will not enhance his art, only turn him into a boxer.

Have to totally disagree with this statement, using gear its the only way to practice without getting injured but still using contact.

The guys I train with use mma gloves and head gear, you can't go all out but the distance is at least correct, and you can still articulate the wrist to some degree.

Dave

[Graham H]

WC can be adapted to work with gloves.

Kick boxing in other words. Put some shin guards, some kick boots and a black belt around your waist and your kickwingchunboxing will be good to go!


oooosh!

GH

[Wayfaring]

Kick boxing in other words. Put some shin guards, some kick boots and a black belt around your waist and your kickwingchunboxing will be good to go!


oooosh!

GH

Or, alternatively, you could leave off the shin guards, "kick boots"[sic], and black belt around your waist and continue to post up glorified slap boxing contests on YouTube while continuing to profess how skilled and untouchable you, your sifu, and your little friends are.

The WC guy in the video looked a little stiff. Usually people I see like that are newer to full contact sparring, as the natural human reaction when getting hit is to tense up, and only experience cures that.

I seriously doubt that 99% of the mouthboxers around here would do better.

[Yoshiyahu]

don't think you can blame the gloves. Anyone who adopts a pose like that shows me that he's got no real fight experience. He lost the fight at the floor. He was too stiff, too rigid and had no footwork so was a sitting duck. Can't say the rules helped though with only light contact to the head. Still all that said fair play to him for being prepared to get on the mat and fight.

So do you think he should moved around more..if so how..."stick and move" or should he went more on the offensive?


WC can be adapted to work with gloves. Some WC training buds of mine get on just fine with them in competitions, and my instructor had 37 successful pro kickboxing matches and many more amateur matches with them. Alan Orr's guys don't seem to have a problem either.

To be fair to the WC guy in the clip, his opponent went on to become one of the better local kickboxers of his time (Dominic Deligny). He also has a considerable reach advantage.

He was basically an amateur practising a non-tournament style going up against a budding champion who trained for the competition arena. No disgrace IMO.

<insert well-worn Teddy Roosevelt quote here>

I agree the only way to get used to doing WC with gloves is to use the gloves...If someone is afraid of sparring or doesn't want contact then of course they can do the blasted drills and chi sau with the gloves on...lol!


Have to totally disagree with this statement, using gear its the only way to practice without getting injured but still using contact.

The guys I train with use mma gloves and head gear, you can't go all out but the distance is at least correct, and you can still articulate the wrist to some degree.

Dave

I totally agree. I also like to use gloves and headgear as well!

[GlennR]

Or, alternatively, you could leave off the shin guards, "kick boots"[sic], and black belt around your waist and continue to post up glorified slap boxing contests on YouTube while continuing to profess how skilled and untouchable you, your sifu, and your little friends are.


You took the words right out of my mouth.


The WC guy in the video looked a little stiff. Usually people I see like that are newer to full contact sparring, as the natural human reaction when getting hit is to tense up, and only experience cures that.

Look, he does ok for the 1st 40 seconds or so, but the KB guy quickly learns that the WC guy has a limited array of weapons (straight punch and front kick) and on top of that he has no power at medium-long range. The KB guy just stands there and kicks/punches away unworried about what the WC guy has to offer.

The KB guy has a bigger array of weapons at his disposal, high-low kicks (both straight and round), a boxers punches, all combined with tried and tested stance/footwork and structure to back it up.

Thats why WC doesnt work in this scenario, limited weapons and (in comparison to MT) limited power.

Its a self defense system, not a sport/combat art




I seriously doubt that 99% of the mouthboxers around here would do better.

Of course they would, they'd "close the gap" and render him helpless ;)

[anerlich]

Kick boxing in other words.

Yeah. Maybe you'll try it sometime, if you don't get incapacitated first in those deadly chi sao skirmishes.

[Robinhood]

I would say putting gloves would be good if you depend on visuals and planning as your que for execution of movements.

[Yoshiyahu]

I would say putting gloves would be good if you depend on visuals and planning as your que for execution of movements.

Why would gloves be used for visuals and planning please explain?


Do you think its inconceiviable to utilize the techniques and principles of wing chun with gloves?

[wingchunIan]

So do you think he should moved around more..if so how..."stick and move" or should he went more on the offensive?


I'd personally advocate closing the distance. Proactively going forward all the time keeping the attacks going. Difficult to relax when the adrenalin is flowing so it becomes very sapping. As i said, I don't think the rules helped because on the few occassions he managed to close the gap, he wasn't allowed to hit full power so his opponent just shrugged off the shots and moved back or turned his back causing the ref to restart the fight - at the ideal range for the kick boxer.

[Graham H]

Yeah. Maybe you'll try it sometime, if you don't get incapacitated first in those deadly chi sao skirmishes.

I competed in full and semi contact kick boxing for 8 years mate in the World Allstyles Kickboxing Organization! If I thought VT was kick-boxing I may as well have stayed.

My chi sau skirmishes are a means to an end for developing not fighting.

You already knew that though didn't you chump? :rolleyes:

You have nor surpassed everybody as being the biggest nob_cheese on this forum. :D


GH

[Wayfaring]

I competed in full and semi contact kick boxing for 8 years mate in the World Allstyles Kickboxing Organization! If I thought VT was kick-boxing I may as well have stayed.

My chi sau skirmishes are a means to an end for developing not fighting.


A means to an end. Hmmm. Does the end ever develop in practice too?

I mean a lot of the "chi sau skirmish" skill I see out there reminds me of a religious joke. "Why don't Baptists have sex standing up? Because it might lead to dancing".

[k gledhill]

chi-sao is the most misunderstood drilling method, ever.

[sanjuro_ronin]

chi-sao is the most misunderstood drilling method, ever.

along with Taiji push-hands.

[YouKnowWho]

along with Taiji push-hands.

Taiji push-hands can be used to develop many valuable skill. It's a good starting point but most people treat it as the ending point. The funny thing is you will still see an 80 years old man doing PH as if he refuses to graduate from elementary school (or high school).

Also too much restriction has been added into the Taiji PH which restrict that format to be expanded.

[wtxs]

I mean a lot of the "chi sau skirmish" skill I see out there reminds me of a religious joke. "Why don't Baptists have sex standing up? Because it might lead to dancing".

Or maybe because they're not using their "tools" to their fullest potential and had never got pass the missionary position :D - just like the misguided notion that the Tan Sao can effectively nullify an hook punch.

[Yoshiyahu]

Very good points. So thats Why maybe WC tools are better in an evironment where you the ref doesn't break you up every time your in a clinch. Maybe he needs to be in a competiton that allows for punches as well as kicks, leg sweeps and take down throws.



I'd personally advocate closing the distance. Proactively going forward all the time keeping the attacks going. Difficult to relax when the adrenalin is flowing so it becomes very sapping. As i said, I don't think the rules helped because on the few occassions he managed to close the gap, he wasn't allowed to hit full power so his opponent just shrugged off the shots and moved back or turned his back causing the ref to restart the fight - at the ideal range for the kick boxer.


How does your chi sau (drill) relate to fighting? How does your ability to do chi sau benefit you when you fight? From what you wrote it sounds like practicing chi sau just makes you better at chi sau and not fighting?




I competed in full and semi contact kick boxing for 8 years mate in the World Allstyles Kickboxing Organization! If I thought VT was kick-boxing I may as well have stayed.

My chi sau skirmishes are a means to an end for developing not fighting.

You already knew that though didn't you chump? :rolleyes:

You have nor surpassed everybody as being the biggest nob_cheese on this forum. :D


GH

[Phil Redmond]

Look at this clip...We see the guy doing WC defensively trying to counter the kickboxer power kicks. Now not taking anything away from WC he has some good use of guards and good defenses against the kick boxer. In my opinion he lacks one fatal flaw...

The Push(aggression)...

the WC priniple is to attack first to gain control and continously and persistently attack your opponent to gain entry so he cant withstand you.

The WC guy just waits for his opponent to join with him so he can attack. He blocks then attack. Instead of attacking and defending simultaneously.


Wing Chun guy gets owned video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH0cjMNVbfs&feature=related)

what do you think
It all depends on who you're fighting and their skill level. All arts have offensive and defensive moves.

[Phil Redmond]

. . .Wing Chun guy gets owned video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH0cjMNVbfs&feature=related) . .
Wing Chun guy gets owned video.....:rolleyes:
Since there are only two people fighting in any competition the loser gets "owned'?
So that means all the famous boxers, MMA fighters, etc., that lose got owned.
Well, I will say this. At least they had the cojones to get in there in the first place. ;)

[Raipizo]

Wing Chun guy gets owned video.....:rolleyes:
Since there are only two people fighting in any competition the loser gets "owned'?
So that means all the famous boxers, MMA fighters, etc., that lose got owned.
Well, I will say this. At least they had the cojones to get in there in the first place. ;)

Agreed, it takes courage to fight. But there are several variables of why he could of lost. But either way hopefully the wing chun fighter trains hard and learns from his mistakes.

[Yoshiyahu]

Very True Phil Indeed thanks for your Post!!!



It all depends on who you're fighting and their skill level. All arts have offensive and defensive moves.


Wing Chun guy gets owned video.....:rolleyes:
Since there are only two people fighting in any competition the loser gets "owned'?
So that means all the famous boxers, MMA fighters, etc., that lose got owned.
Well, I will say this. At least they had the cojones to get in there in the first place. ;)

[mjw]

If you just stand there you better be a great counter fighter otherwise its like shooting fish in a barrel IMO

[Yoshiyahu]

If you just stand there you better be a great counter fighter otherwise its like shooting fish in a barrel IMO

lol thats too funny

[evrchangingfist]

Taiji push-hands can be used to develop many valuable skill. It's a good starting point but most people treat it as the ending point. The funny thing is you will still see an 80 years old man doing PH as if he refuses to graduate from elementary school (or high school).

Also too much restriction has been added into the Taiji PH which restrict that format to be expanded.

Even in my short time of training ,I see this is all to present in many styles of fighting refusing to expand or to add for self preservation instead of growing and developing from there base.It seems when some thing becomes codified it becomes a art not a combat system any more.You are so right YouKnowWho

[Yoshiyahu]

even in my short time of training ,i see this is all to present in many styles of fighting refusing to expand or to add for self preservation instead of growing and developing from there base.it seems when some thing becomes codified it becomes a art not a combat system any more.you are so right youknowwho

it all depends on person reason for studing the art...


Is it purely to fight? Or is it purely for the art...or is it a little of both?

[Phil Redmond]

Wing Chun is both defensive and offensive as are ALL martial arts. Anyone who says that an art is only offensive is delusional at best. Anyone can get caught off guard and be put in defensive mode. That premise works in both individual and group combat. Just read the Art of War which most military people do.

[Yoshiyahu]

Wing Chun is both defensive and offensive as are ALL martial arts. Anyone who says that an art is only offensive is delusional at best. Anyone can get caught off guard and be put in defensive mode. That premise works in both individual and group combat. Just read the Art of War which most military people do.

I agree...but the intent on the article is to share WC is offensive because its main intent is to attack first...where as aikido or tai chi waits for an opponents attack...

A defensive fighter is more of counter type of guy...where WC is more offensive an attack first...WC has both defenses and attacks. But the key to WC is aggression ie attack aka offense.

Tai Chi is more passive aggressive. It awaits on an opponents aggression turns it around on him...ie defends attacks first aka defensive...

[JPinAZ]

Phil, 'delusional at best' it being far too nice :)


I agree...but the intent on the article is to share WC is offensive because its main intent is to attack first...where as aikido or tai chi waits for an opponents attack...

A defensive fighter is more of counter type of guy...where WC is more offensive an attack first...WC has both defenses and attacks. But the key to WC is aggression ie attack aka offense.

Tai Chi is more passive aggressive. It awaits on an opponents aggression turns it around on him...ie defends attacks first aka defensive...

This whole post points to someone that really isn't speaking from experience.

WCK is neither just defensive or just offensive. Thinking WCK is about aggression or attacking first will get you in trouble in a hurry with any experienced fighter. Have you ever sparred with anyone outside of your WC group/other than guys like Stan? :rolleyes:

[Yoshiyahu]

Yes mate sparred lots...mostly from other styles of non-chinese martial arts...and street fighters...a few WC guys locally...




Phil, 'delusional at best' it being far too nice :)



This whole post points to someone that really isn't speaking from experience.

WCK is neither just defensive or just offensive. Thinking WCK is about aggression or attacking first will get you in trouble in a hurry with any experienced fighter. Have you ever sparred with anyone outside of your WC group/other than guys like Stan? :rolleyes: