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RenDaHai
01-14-2012, 02:40 PM
Worth his own thread I think.

Fire away, any stories, legends, anecdotes, historical musings etc. Lets try to collect them all in one place.

LFJ
01-17-2012, 11:19 AM
I think knowing his various names will help in searching out information on him...

Well, everyone knows the story of scaring off the Red Turbans, where he announced himself as Jinnaluo Wang (King Kinnara), right?

In the monastery as the kitchen worker his Chinese name was first Xu Naluo.

Interestingly, the Mogou village attribute much of their martial arts to him. They have him as an old man who came there to teach Shaolin. They called him Nuonuo Ye (Grandpa Nuonuo).

The name Nuonuo is actually found as part of posture names in some of the Shaolin stick sets attributed to him, such as Shaohuogun (tending-fire stick).

They also say it was the emperor who conferred the name of Jinnaluo Wang upon him, rather than him growing into a giant and announcing himself as such. :rolleyes:

There's a lot of myth and legends concerning him which we could get into, but it seems the Mogoupai stories align more closely to likely reality.

GeneChing
01-17-2012, 11:36 AM
Meat, Wine, and Fighting Monks: Did Shaolin Monks breach Buddhist Dietary Regulations? (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=521) by Dr. Meir Shahar discusses Jinnaluo.

I also discussed Jinnaluo in Strike Like Thunder - Hard as a Diamond: The Myth Behind 'Hero Sits on the Mountain' in our Shaolin Special 2007 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=729).

I'm sure I've discussed Jinnaluo elsewhere too - that's just off the top of my head.

RenDaHai
01-17-2012, 01:16 PM
Interestingly, the Mogou village attribute much of their martial arts to him. They have him as an old man who came there to teach Shaolin. They called him Nuonuo Ye (Grandpa Nuonuo).
.

THat is true and a very little known fact. I spent time in Mogou Village. There is a derelict temple just over the mountain from Mogou where He reputedly stayed for a while. Mogou Village actually has a training hall with depressions in the floor just like in Shaolin. THe training hall has fallen in now.

They once had a rich tradition of Wushu, but only a little still remains, a great deal has become extinct in the last decade. What remains is XiaoHongQuan, LaoHongQuan, YunYangQuan, QiXingQuan, GuanXiQuan, LiuHeQuan DuiDa, ChunQiuDaDao. The Shaolin Form 'ChangHuXinYiMen' is actually simply a re-interpretation of the MogouPai XiaoHongQuan. While I was there I learned their XiaoHong, LaoHong and YunYang but I intend to return soon. All excellent forms. They contain the same basics as most Shaolin, but done in an interesting way. (If anyone is interested in Finding their way to this small mountain village, it is not so easy, but I would be happy to give a detailed instruction. A new road going through there was completed last year).

Apart from Mogou, other of SongShans Village styles attribute themselves to NuoNuoYe, or a later lineage holder, NuoTianFa. XiaoHongQuan in particular seems to be strongly associated with him.


LFJ, Why don't you repeat the red turban story for us here. It would be cool to have all the JinNaLuo stories written down in one easy to access thread.

LFJ
01-17-2012, 03:10 PM
[COLOR="Sienna"]The Shaolin Form 'ChangHuXinYiMen' is actually simply a re-interpretation of the MogouPai XiaoHongQuan.

I wonder if their XHQ is somehow related to the other Xinyiquan related sets, such as Qixingquan which they also have. Is their Qixingquan the long version? Perhaps their XHQ is the original way to do Changhuxinyimenquan, but why is it called Xiaohong?

Although Sal suggested both Qixingquan and Changhuxinyimenquan came out of interactions with Ji Longfeng, which resulted in these "Xinyi" sets, the Shaolin Encyc. says CHXYMQ was created by monk Huiwei in the Song Dynasty with 36 postures, and was modified over the centuries. In the Yuan Dynasty in was extended to 72 by JINNALUO!

There is also a Liuhequan Duida created by him, and one in particular that shares many postures from CHXYMQ. Wonder if Mogou's is like that...

If so, this village may contain the original Xinyi (Liuhe) quan system.. associated with Jinnaluo rather than Ji Longfeng.

What do you say?

LFJ
01-17-2012, 03:32 PM
Actually the Shaolin Encyclopedia says the Liuhequan Duilian that shares a lot in common with Changhuxinyimenquan was created by Qing Dynasty monk Zhanju. It's the main one done at Shi Deyang's school.

The one created by Xu Naluo (Jinnaluo) is the one Shi Deyang has a video of (with young Li Yafei demonstrating). It starts with the two facing each other and doing a five kick combo ending in Dahu Baotou.

I'm interested in which one Mogoupai does. If it's the former then it would fit with the rest of their style, and since 'Nuonuo Ye' is credited by them, then it seems he's most associated with this Xinyiquan system...

RenDaHai
01-17-2012, 05:07 PM
LFJ, I have SO much to say on that it is hard for me to collect my thoughts in a post.

So for know I'll stick to simple answers.

1. On XinYi Connection

I have encountered XinYiBa in several village styles, however not in Mogou. It could be simply that it was not revealed to me however. The 'secret' style in MOgou is LaoHOngQUan, also referred to as LaoHuQuan and KanJiaQuan. It contains moves from XHQ and the rest of Mogou fist combined into a short effective form.

TAGOU makes no secret of its KungFu connection to Mogou village, and is why I went there in the first place. LiuBaoShan even visited himself back in 1970.

XinYiPai is very common in the MingJian Wushu of Henan. Near SOngShan it is often combined with Shaolin. Certainly Tagous versions of CHXYM and QXQ have a XinYi element to them.

TAGOUs CHXYM and QXQ, now the standard are NOT the Shaolin Temple versions (although now they are). The Small frame stance and hand position do NOT appear in My versions of the forms, nor in the Mogou versions. It is however true that Mogou was once practiced by many people and would have had subsects now extinct.

2. On MOgou Origin

A long while ago a Man from MOgou became a Shaolin Monk. He taught Mogou forms to Shaolin and modified them to fit in with the shaolin convention of technique. I (and Mogou) believe CHXYM is from this time, but there are other possible explanations. The name may well be older.

Technically CHXYM is as old as XHQ since it is actually XHQ. Mogou is strictly XiYuanPai.

If you see MogouPai XHQ it is clearly the sequence on which CHXYM is built. HOwever it is also clearly related to XHQ.

XHQ is as ancient as a form gets. Because it is a farming village I think the Mogou version of XHQ would have evolved less than XHQ in the hands of the masters of Shaolin Temple. As such Mogous may be a closer look of the original. I think they wanted to reintegrate it when they found it. There is also something about the separation of the NanYuan and XiYuan but I need more research.

Even looking at the current common XHQ and CHXYM you can compare. The repeated XieXings, where they are repeated, the tornado kick in the middle, the left right left palms at the end, there is a lot more but I would need to make a video to explain.


3. On QiXIng

Mogous Qixing Quan is completely different. Completely. HOwever Qixing originally had at least 3 roads, Mogou only has 1 remaining and it may have been one of the later roads which would explain the difference. I saw Qixing yi Lu from a nearby to mogou village and it was like a cross between the current popular Qixing and my version (I showed you a bit in china) and used very similar basics to mogou. So I think Maybe MOgous YiLu is extinct but 2 lo survives. My master knows the current shaolin erlu Qixing quan but I have yet to see it completely. That would make a good comparison.


4. On Liu He

MOgous LiuHeQUan DUiDa is almost identical to that in Tagous books. As is their ChunQiuDa Dao.



In short I thinK MOgou pai Kung fu was re-integrated with shaolin by a monk from there. Perhaps this Zhanju fellow was him. I will have to ask the name of the monk from mogou when I get a chance. In which case he may have been responsible for CHXYM as well.

There is a lot more to the CHXYM and QXQ story..... I need to uncover more. QXQ must be very old if it appears in Mogou as their sect splits from Shaolin a long time ago. CHXYM however may not be as old. Before I went to MOgou I knew other people refer to CHXYM as NOT shaolin but as Hong quan. Mogou Pai classifies itself as HongQuan but also as Shaolin Pai. Its confusing.


I have videos of all of MOgous forms bar GuanXiQuan (GXQ is a whopping 160 moves). But I have no idea about video conversion and uploading to youtube.... If you saw Mogou XHQ you would know it must be CHXYM.

Xian
01-17-2012, 10:59 PM
@RenDaHai


I would need to make a video to explain.

Then go ahead and do it, I think this would be pretty interesting.;)


Kind regards,
Xian

mickey
01-18-2012, 05:45 AM
Greetings,

Could any of you explain why he is no longer depicted as having dark skin? I find the change from that norm strange.

mickey

LFJ
01-18-2012, 10:18 AM
@RDH,

Firstly, Xinyiquan and Xinyiba refer to two different subsystems that are said to stem from interactions with Ji Longfeng and later his students.

Changhuxinyimenquan and Qixingquan are said to be Xinyiquan sets that came from the first interaction. And the Xinyiba material was the later. Although Qixingquan is also said to have been called a Qixingba.

But, to not get off topic of Jinnaluo here, I've taken this discussion up with you on this thread: Shaolin Xin Yi related sets (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1153502#post1153502)

Xian
01-18-2012, 02:56 PM
Would love to learn more about Jinna Luo.


Kind regards,
Xian