Wing Chun and Brazillian Jiu Jitsu

[WingChunABQ]

Hello all! In my efforts to improve as a student of Wing Chun, I've been training with a variety of people both within WC and other martial arts. I've had the opportunity to workshop with people outside of WC in order to see some other perspectives on fighting and training.

I recently encountered several practitioners of both Wing Chun and Brazillian Jiu Jitsu who are of the opinion that Wing Chun's usefulness ends at clinching range and is basically non-existent in ground fighting.

As long as I have practiced Wing Chun, I have understood it to be a 'complete martial art', meaning that its effectiveness is limited only by the creativity and application of the practitioner. Therefore, Wing Chun should have an answer to the "problem" of ground fighting and grappling.

I'm curious what you think. Within the confines of a traditional Chinese system, what training methods and strategies do you use to deal with grappling/ ground fighting?

[mjw]

I train in BJJ and WC so I can say they both deal with touch and pressure there are similarities in principles but it's like comparing apples to oranges......

[sanjuro_ronin]

When it comes to ground work ( fighting ON the ground), very few ( if any systems) can compare to BJJ.
WC does NOT compare to BJJ in terms of ground fighting NOR SHOULD it.
That WC CAN address the issue depends on HOW it is trained and VS WHAT it is trained ( hint: WC VS WC will NOT prepare you for ground fighting).
And NO, WC as it is does NOT have an answer for the ground fighting that a BJJ fighter brings to the table, if you ( or anyone) doubts that, they can test that view very easily.
The WC fighters best option is to keep the fighting standing as long as possible.

[WC1277]

I'd say WC "can" be used on the ground but by no means is it the top winner compared to others obviously.

I think that's the reason structure is so incredibly important though. I have a friend who I essentially fight with from time to time whom is an excellent ground fighter. I have found that over the years as my structure became more and more solid the harder it was for him to take me down. Elbows down with a good rooted stance will go a long way against a grappler. Applying the same principles will work too....once he has you in a clinch, as long as you still just apply forward pressure to his center, ideally his jawbone area by the ear, you can buy yourself some time. It's one time having control of their elbow doesn't mean having control of them, but test it out, that jawbone area is the clinch range version of the elbow....

[wingchunIan]

I train in BJJ and WC so I can say they both deal with touch and pressure there are similarities in principles but it's like comparing apples to oranges......

Agree entirely. IME Wing Chun can be used very effectively on the ground both from on top and below but the longer you are on the ground the more disadvantaged you are versus an art like BJJ (given the different contexts of the arts this isn't surprising). The primary aim of a Wing Chun practitioner should be to stay standing and if taken down, to get back up asap.

[Dragonzbane76]

WC is a striking art. There is no answer for it on the ground. BJJ/wrestling/grappling in general aim to take down. Why? Because it negates the strike. You totally take away someones leverage for power shots and advantage of escape when you take them down.

I would go on but ronin stated all that really needs to be said about the whole subject.

[anerlich]

As long as I have practiced Wing Chun, I have understood it to be a 'complete martial art', meaning that its effectiveness is limited only by the creativity and application of the practitioner. Therefore, Wing Chun should have an answer to the "problem" of ground fighting and grappling.

I'm curious what you think. Within the confines of a traditional Chinese system, what training methods and strategies do you use to deal with grappling/ ground fighting?

I disagree with the premise that WC is a "complete martial art" or that it "should have" an answer to groundfighting. It works best in standup fights and in confined spaces.

Is there some good reason any of us have to stay "Within the confines of a traditional Chinese system"? I can't see one.

After a decade of WC, I too was concerned about groundfighting and grappling. That's why I've been training BJJ in the 12 years since.

[anerlich]

.once he has you in a clinch, as long as you still just apply forward pressure to his center, ideally his jawbone area by the ear, you can buy yourself some time.

That's a basic wrestling tactic.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Throughout history fighting with the hands and short weapons was the standard. Going to ground in a fight was not something that anyone endeavered to do. It usually meant death if you were in a battle.
Ground fighting is a relatively new thing. It came into being when fighting became a regulated sport. BJJ is a form of sport grapling. Sport fighting is done under a rule set and you don't have to fear having your brains kicked out. In south or West Dallas the only reason anyone would attempt to take you down is so that while they wrestle with you their friends can kick stuff off of you.
It would be wise to learn some form of fighting that can get you back up off the ground, like Jiujitsu. When learning WC I did learn several escape methods and lots of grappling techniques, but Jiujitsu has the most and the most effective. Forget about submission holds. They are completely worthless. You want techniques that can injure or break stuff on your opponent. Methods to get him off you as quickly as you can.

[imperialtaichi]

Martial Arts evolve base on needs.

Jujitsu evolved because Japanese warriors used to wear light armour, which makes striking and slashing less effective, unless the opponent is taken down to pierce swords through gaps between the armour, or to break arms/legs etc.

Generalizing, some northern styles Kung Fu were developed for the millitary, WC and some southern styles focus on gang warfare, others such as SE Asian countries developed arts suitable for tribal dispute.

In gang fights, go ground and you are dead.

Basically, pick the arts to fit your purpose, not to change the art to fit.

In KL22, we have a "kneeling horse hammer" for the purpose of take-downs and counter take-downs.

[wingchunIan]

The only way to see if your WC works on the ground is to try it, time and time again. If you think that being on the floor takes away your power then I suggest you review your Biu jee etc and look at how you are generating power, then look at where you are trying to hit and hit the bits that require least power to do damage. The floor is a dangerous place and one should look to get back to the feet as quickly as possible using any means necessary.
Groundfighting as a protracted area of engagement is a sporting development (not new) found in wrestling and grappling, but going to the floor in a fight is a common occurance and every martial art with a background in real application (ie those not developed for sport) would originally have had methods for preventing going to the floor and for getting back to the feet if it happened. WC is no different

[Dragonzbane76]

Forget about submission holds. They are completely worthless.

Its statements like this that lead me to believe you've never grappled a day in your life. Submissions like a RNC are useless? A guillotine? Arm bar, etc. I think your term of submission is hindered in that you think of rule sets for sport.

You want a system that totally devotes to movement on the ground and regaining your feet? Wrestling. The whole art is basically the ability to stay on your feet without getting takein down.

[Frost]

Its statements like this that lead me to believe you've never grappled a day in your life. Submissions like a RNC are useless? A guillotine? Arm bar, etc. I think your term of submission is hindered in that you think of rule sets for sport.

You want a system that totally devotes to movement on the ground and regaining your feet? Wrestling. The whole art is basically the ability to stay on your feet without getting takein down.

Im interested in hearing from him as well as to what the difference between submission holds..which are useless...and
techniques that can injure or break stuff on your opponent is? im confused i know i only did grappling for about a decade but i thought submission holds where techniques that could break and damage things but which you simple controled the amount of pressure being used so this didnt happen unless the opponent didnt tap in time?:confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lee Chian has shown over and over that he has no clue about grappling of any type.
While I wouldn't go so far as to call him a troll, I think he typlifies the ignorance that SOMEHOW is still in existence in TCMA about grappling and ground fighting.

As anyone that has grappled or even fought a grappler knows, submissions ARE breaks and dislocations.

Like I said before, the ONLY way you can test if your WC CAN fight on the ground is to do just that, get yourself to your nearest MMA or BJJ gym and test it for yourself.

Other than that, you are working by premise and hope and NOT by fact and experience.

[Chadderz]

WC is not a complete art. Not even close! It is primarily a striking art, with small aspects of grappling. Same as Muay Thai.

WC aspects could probably be used on the ground if you're striking, but really, what would be the point? Wouldn't learning BJJ/Sambo/Judo/Wrestling be a better use of your time?


Why look to Kung Fu for ALL your answers?

[mjw]

Throughout history fighting with the hands and short weapons was the standard. Going to ground in a fight was not something that anyone endeavered to do. It usually meant death if you were in a battle.
Ground fighting is a relatively new thing. It came into being when fighting became a regulated sport. BJJ is a form of sport grapling. Sport fighting is done under a rule set and you don't have to fear having your brains kicked out. In south or West Dallas the only reason anyone would attempt to take you down is so that while they wrestle with you their friends can kick stuff off of you.
It would be wise to learn some form of fighting that can get you back up off the ground, like Jiujitsu. When learning WC I did learn several escape methods and lots of grappling techniques, but Jiujitsu has the most and the most effective. Forget about submission holds. They are completely worthless. You want techniques that can injure or break stuff on your opponent. Methods to get him off you as quickly as you can.

I agree than with weapons and multiples etc that ground fighting isn't a good idea but it's not new look at ancient Greece they had boxing and wrestling probably before bodiharma went to india in fact I think fighting arts went from there to india for they did trade but thats another discussion in it self.

However with weapons if you take somebody down and are in top position with a blade I'd say hit should be quite easy to finish one and move on to the next?
From this I'd say escapes and some other bottom techniques evolved however when training soldiers with limited amounts of time then why get into this?

This is just why I don't think ground fighting is touched in so many arts not that they are incomplete and I'm not disrespecting them it's just the quick path to battle readiness that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Like a formation of soldiers keeps its intervals and cover in line formation as they move in (lets leave guns out of this) if one wrestles on the ground that makes a weak point in the line so perhaps also for this reason wrestling wasn't toughed as well. who knows????

[Vajramusti]

And jabberwocky goes on!!

[WingChunABQ]

And jabberwocky goes on!!

lol, Sifu Joy :D

[Grumblegeezer]

I never did get this argument. I always thought of striking and grappling arts as complementary, and granted the time and inclination, it would be wise... and fun to study both.

As far as "anti-grappling" in WC, I always thought of that as a way to "escape" from the grappler's range or domain and bring the fight back to WC territory. And as such, it should be trained with the coaching of a good grappler!

[Lee Chiang Po]

Its statements like this that lead me to believe you've never grappled a day in your life. Submissions like a RNC are useless? A guillotine? Arm bar, etc. I think your term of submission is hindered in that you think of rule sets for sport.

You want a system that totally devotes to movement on the ground and regaining your feet? Wrestling. The whole art is basically the ability to stay on your feet without getting takein down.

In a refereed fight this would be just fine. But you are likely to get whacked from someone behind you or on a blind side while you are attempting to submit or even hold someone in an arm bar or choke. I speak from experience when I say you need to stay on your feet and you definately need to forget about submission. Even if the guy says he gives up, no sooner than you let him go he is on you again. Evenatully he might choke you out or beat you down. And if he has friends with him you can fully expect it.
Actually, I have done a good bit of grappling. When working as a bouncer or whatever, I was never allowed to beat on the patrons. My job was to defuse a situation as smoothly as I could without resorting to violence. Because of this I would attempt to use jiujitsu to control the individual, but people in bars or night clubs are seldom alone. In most cases, they attempted to strike you from behind or grab you so someone else can hit you. If you went down they would all get in on it. Most times I was also not alone, but you can not always depend on that. For a single person without help, on the ground with me is not where he wants to be. I have very strong jiujitsu skills. However, they are diminished when there are people kicking my head around.

[anerlich]

Throughout history fighting with the hands and short weapons was the standard. Going to ground in a fight was not something that anyone endeavered to do. It usually meant death if you were in a battle.

Actually, some jiu jitsu histories have it that a precursor art was developed to take armed and armoured opponents down for greater control while inserting edged weapons through the armour to dispatch them.


Ground fighting is a relatively new thing.

Yeah, if you call something that started in the twelfth century in Japan new. I guess it's newer than the boxing found in various art forms dating back 7000 years, or the wrestling in cave paintings going back 17000 years.


BJJ is a form of sport grapling.

Originally it was a self defense system, and at least in some gyms still is. you don't have to go to mount, side control, or guard to use BJJ effectively in a defense situation. My BJJ instructor has considerable security, self-defense and competition experience, he teaches self defense which incorporates wrestling standup controls and throws, striking, and ground control. I agree going to the ground by choice in a defense situation is a bad idea. Thinking you might always have a choice about staying on your feet is a much worse idea, however.

[anerlich]

Sorry John, jumped ahead and didn't realise you had already posted this:


Jujitsu evolved because Japanese warriors used to wear light armour, which makes striking and slashing less effective, unless the opponent is taken down to pierce swords through gaps between the armour, or to break arms/legs etc.

[Eric_H]

As far as "anti-grappling" in WC, I always thought of that as a way to "escape" from the grappler's range or domain and bring the fight back to WC territory. And as such, it should be trained with the coaching of a good grappler!

Get out of here with that common sense, this is KFO for pete's sake. :D

[Wayfaring]

I'm curious what you think. Within the confines of a traditional Chinese system, what training methods and strategies do you use to deal with grappling/ ground fighting?

Wrestling on the feet, BJJ on the ground.

No clue why someone would be voluntarily confined by traditional Chinese systems.

[Chadderz]

Right, just to be clear, a submission is what you do in a ring. On the street, you do not give any thought to submission, you go straight to the breaking part. It only takes a fraction of a second to extend your hips and break something.


Also, if you're fighting more than one person, how well do you expect to fair standing up? It's pretty bloody difficult!

[Dragonzbane76]

In a refereed fight this would be just fine. But you are likely to get whacked from someone behind you or on a blind side while you are attempting to submit or even hold someone in an arm bar or choke. I speak from experience when I say you need to stay on your feet and you definately need to forget about submission. Even if the guy says he gives up, no sooner than you let him go he is on you again. Evenatully he might choke you out or beat you down. And if he has friends with him you can fully expect it.

No one said to go to the ground Looking for a submission. Come on be realistic for one second in your life. The thing your totally not getting is that SUBMISSION is like one milli. second away from a break or collapsing the wind pipe, etc. I never once stated that you shouldn't stay on your feet in a situation your talking about. But heres the ball buster... what happens if your taken down? Blind sided while your facing another opponent. Well your on the ground and now you have to deal with it. The same friends you were so adamently stating were going to boot your head in are still going to be there. At this juncture you should be worried about positioning. skills of how to get up and finish someone off become important. wrestling, bjj, judo, grappling deal with these issues from that perspective.


Even if the guy says he gives up, no sooner than you let him go he is on you again.
Your still orienting "submissions" with sport. maybe your understanding of the concept is flawed, or that it doesn't take much to exert a tad bit more force from these positions to "finish" the situation.

[maxattck]

In a refereed fight this would be just fine. But you are likely to get whacked from someone behind you or on a blind side while you are attempting to submit or even hold someone in an arm bar or choke. I speak from experience when I say you need to stay on your feet and you definately need to forget about submission. Even if the guy says he gives up, no sooner than you let him go he is on you again. Evenatully he might choke you out or beat you down. And if he has friends with him you can fully expect.

What do you not understand, on the deadly streets BJJ would, break the dam arm, or choke the person out. A blood choke only takes a few second seconds (5) till you black out. It only takes a second to break an arm, subs are only in training or competition.

[Wayfaring]

No one said to go to the ground Looking for a submission. Come on be realistic for one second in your life. The thing your totally not getting is that SUBMISSION is like one milli. second away from a break or collapsing the wind pipe, etc. I never once stated that you shouldn't stay on your feet in a situation your talking about. But heres the ball buster... what happens if your taken down? Blind sided while your facing another opponent. Well your on the ground and now you have to deal with it. The same friends you were so adamently stating were going to boot your head in are still going to be there. At this juncture you should be worried about positioning. skills of how to get up and finish someone off become important. wrestling, bjj, judo, grappling deal with these issues from that perspective.

Yes - even for training submissions I usually don't tap until I am in danger of going unconscious or a limb or joint is extended to the point where if I did not tap it would be damaged. In competitions many times ignorant people don't tap and get injured.

You are spot on in self defense situations. The whole multiple attacker argument multiplies when you are on the ground. Ground skills like a good guard help you to be able to be very mobile on your back, to keep your legs between you and an attacker, and to know how and when to stand up while remaining protected.

[Peaceful Orchid]

What do you not understand, on the deadly streets BJJ would, break the dam arm, or choke the person out. A blood choke only takes a few second seconds (5) till you black out. It only takes a second to break an arm, subs are only in training or competition.

However, it often takes a bit of time to maneuver into a position in which you can apply your "quick" choke or joint break.

Being on the ground is not a place to be against multiple opponents.

[Dragonzbane76]

Being on the ground is not a place to be against multiple opponents
I don't think anyone said it was. Didn't know if you were jumping on the wagon or just pointing it out again. ;)

[Wayfaring]

Being on the ground is not a place to be against multiple opponents.

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

Let's not leave out other important notifications for self-defense such as:

- It's advisable to avoid dangerous areas
- The way to avoid pub fights is to never go to pubs
- Punching a police officer isn't the best course of action

[WingChunABQ]

- Punching a police officer isn't the best course of action

lol!

Awesome.

[maxattck]

However, it often takes a bit of time to maneuver into a position in which you can apply your "quick" choke or joint break.

Being on the ground is not a place to be against multiple opponents.

I was not advising going to the ground with my post against multi attackers. I was just responding to a poster that seemed to be under the impression that BJJ only uses just subs for some silly reason on the streets.

[imperialtaichi]

I don't like the ground... for many of the reasons already pointed out by others. But in fights, sh!t happens and we may end up on ground.

And for that same reason, I need to know ground, so I can deal with ground and get out of ground.

[Dragonzbane76]

I don't like the ground... for many of the reasons already pointed out by others. But in fights, sh!t happens and we may end up on ground.

And for that same reason, I need to know ground, so I can deal with ground and get out of ground.

logic reasoning... none of that will take place here. :p