Wing Chun Kuen Kuit

[WingChunABQ]

Do you know any (trustworthy) resources online that have the full Wing Chun Kuen Kuit in English?

Thanks!

[chunner]

Do you know any (trustworthy) resources online that have the full Wing Chun Kuen Kuit in English?

Thanks!

ask your sifu

[WingChunABQ]

We have ours at our kwoon, but I'd like to compare different translations/ renditions of the Kuen Kuit to get a better understanding of the language used - shades of meaning and all that.

[LoneTiger108]

We have ours at our kwoon, but I'd like to compare different translations/ renditions of the Kuen Kuit to get a better understanding of the language used - shades of meaning and all that.

Which Kuit are you referring to exactly as there are quite a few 'collections'? I don't know about online stuff being accurate because half the time the characters themselves are not shared, and they too can be interpreted differently fme.

[WingChunABQ]

Which Kuit are you referring to exactly as there are quite a few 'collections'? I don't know about online stuff being accurate because half the time the characters themselves are not shared, and they too can be interpreted differently fme.

Right. This is why I want to do a little homework and cross referencing. The Kuit that I know (those posted on the wall of my kwoon) are from the Yip Man lineage. However, they are in English. I've seen several different translations which contain sometimes divergent shades of meaning ("watch your sex life" vs. "observe good morality" and so forth). I'm trying to find ones that are the closest in meaning to the Yip Man Kuit.

However, your post makes me think of another question - do different lineages have different kuit? If so, I'd be interested in knowing them too.

Thanks!

[couch]

Right. This is why I want to do a little homework and cross referencing. The Kuit that I know (those posted on the wall of my kwoon) are from the Yip Man lineage. However, they are in English. I've seen several different translations which contain sometimes divergent shades of meaning ("watch your sex life" vs. "observe good morality" and so forth). I'm trying to find ones that are the closest in meaning to the Yip Man Kuit.

However, your post makes me think of another question - do different lineages have different kuit? If so, I'd be interested in knowing them too.

Thanks!

Shameless self-promotion (and a link to wcarchive's Kuen Kuit at the bottom):
http://darkwingchun.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/dark-gung-fu-kuen-kuit/

[LoneTiger108]

Shameless self-promotion (and a link to wcarchive's Kuen Kuit at the bottom):
http://darkwingchun.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/dark-gung-fu-kuen-kuit/

Shameless! ;)

Good advice nevertheless but I do hate the fact that the Chinese lines of Kuit are not presented. :mad:

[LoneTiger108]

However, your post makes me think of another question - do different lineages have different kuit? If so, I'd be interested in knowing them too.

This (sort of) suggests to me that you were not 'taught' these lines and you may have things that are more akin to 'Rules' rather than 'Hints & Tips'.

If it is rules you want (directly from Ip Man) I have found no better example than Sifu Sam Kwoks here

http://www.kwokwingchun.co.uk/assets/2009/3/12/CodeofConduct.jpg

As for 'actual' original Kuen Kuit online, let's see if anyone else can point you in the right direction.

And my own lines I was taught are not online sir! And I don't think they will EVER be shared publically or outside the family. But I do live in hope and am working to try to get more out there, but I have so little really compared to most. I would check out Augustine Fong and Moy Yats direct students first ;)

[couch]

Shameless! ;)

Good advice nevertheless but I do hate the fact that the Chinese lines of Kuit are not presented. :mad:

As stated before, there is a link at the bottom of the post that goes to wcarchive's list - which I believe is most complete.

[WingChunABQ]

@Couch - nice blog!

@Lone Tiger - Awesome! Thanks a lot.

As to whether or not I was taught them, I was, but they were never very central to our learning curriculum. They were on the wall and we read them, but we never studied them directly as one might a "primary textual source". Occasionally my sifus would reference them when explaining a principle or application but we never went through them systematically. This is something I'm trying to rectify now for myself, which is the purpose of my starting this thread.

So my next question would be: Do many WC schools spend time in class directly studying the Kuen Kuit, and if so, how is it incorporated into the curriculae?

Thanks again!

[LoneTiger108]

As stated before, there is a link at the bottom of the post that goes to wcarchive's list - which I believe is most complete.

Complete? In English you mean?? And who translated everything they have used on that site? Who out of the translators have actually used the information to teach to students?

Sorry for being so negative, but this does frustrate me. Far too many decent resources have been 'used' by the modern internet soldiers and they rarely credit the original source. Mentioned in a thread recently too I think??

[LoneTiger108]

So my next question would be: Do many WC schools spend time in class directly studying the Kuen Kuit, and if so, how is it incorporated into the curriculae?

Let's start with an easier question:

Who learns even their basic Wing Chun curriculum in Cantonese/Chinese?

Very few I think, and so to delve into hints and tips from generations of Wing Chun ancestors and actually using the knowledge to teach is asking a bit much I think. But that's just me. I've tried to learn the lingo and reading/writing and I know how hard it is, so I don't blame anyone if they're not interested at all.

I preferred to teach a simple numeric system in the end and saved the actual 'teaching' for those who also wanted to teach ;) And that is very few indeed!!

[WingChunABQ]

Complete? In English you mean?? And who translated everything they have used on that site? Who out of the translators have actually used the information to teach to students?

Sorry for being so negative, but this does frustrate me. Far too many decent resources have been 'used' by the modern internet soldiers and they rarely credit the original source. Mentioned in a thread recently too I think??

This is why I've been leary about the WC Archive version. It's not necessarily bad, but it's not cited so it's academically dubious.

As for using the Kuit as a curricular tool, it seems that they ought to have a place in a WC school alongside forms and drills. I've never seen that done, per se. I'd like to increase my own understanding of the art and the kuit is definintely one bit of the system in which I could stand to improve.

[LoneTiger108]

Check out one of our first pictures with my Sifu in 1995. On the wall in the background was our first few lines ;)

More of a set of methods than advice, and this was always stuff we referred to as Hao Kuit or 'spoken verse' which were shouted out during training for us to react to because they were more instructions than advice, if you get what I mean?

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/6729_1132153098199_1058417759_353168_7836800_n.jpg

[WingChunABQ]

That's whats a little puzzling to me about them. Some of them are very specific and technical: "Avoid Pak Sao in the Inner Door".

while others sound more like 'open' aphorisms that are open to interpretation:

"The Fist is not polite", "Punch from the heart", and so forth.

The first ones I mentioned sound to me like instructions. The others sound more like principles.

I guess I'm a bit confused as to how they're organized.

I also don't have enough knowledge about how didactic poetry was used in classical Chinese martial arts schools. Like, did Yip Man make his students memorize the kuit like one might make them memorize the forms? Would they be discussed? Were they treated as some kind of 'holy writ of Wing Chun' or were they simply a set of loose thoughts that the grandmaster felt were important enough to write down?

[couch]

@Couch - nice blog!

@Lone Tiger - Awesome! Thanks a lot.

As to whether or not I was taught them, I was, but they were never very central to our learning curriculum. They were on the wall and we read them, but we never studied them directly as one might a "primary textual source". Occasionally my sifus would reference them when explaining a principle or application but we never went through them systematically. This is something I'm trying to rectify now for myself, which is the purpose of my starting this thread.

So my next question would be: Do many WC schools spend time in class directly studying the Kuen Kuit, and if so, how is it incorporated into the curriculae?

Thanks again!

Not to answer your question at all...but...

I hypothesize that the Kuen Kuit were something like what boxing coaches do: repeat favourite sayings over the years.

Weight on the front foot.
Let your hands go.
Double jab, triple jab.
Stick and move.
Hands up, chin down.

...that sort of thing.

So the way I see it, is that they should be treated as such - a memory game reminder of a principle. But just like there are many boxing coaches and many different learning styles, a lot of sayings don't apply - either due to the 'style' of Wing Chun being taught or because we're a different generation.

Kuen Kuit doesn't make a fighter a better fighter - fighting does. But for the beginner, gentle rhymes can help reinforce key ideas. But even then, when you're scared and your coach says, "Let your hands go," it's up the practitioner to make it happen their own way.

CTK

[nasmedicine]

Do you know any (trustworthy) resources online that have the full Wing Chun Kuen Kuit in English?

Thanks!

http://kwansao.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/wing-chun-fist-poems-kuen-kuit-in-english/

enjoy...

[Vajramusti]

http://kwansao.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/wing-chun-fist-poems-kuen-kuit-in-english/

enjoy...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The largest kuen kuit collection was made by Augustine Fong, Sifu and appeared in his concepts and principles book around 1980 and it sold out quickly. One of his ex students put it up here:
< http://www.wingchun.org/kuenkuit.html>
It has since been lifted and incorporated in many places without footnoting.


Moy Yat has a smaller collection which he made into stone chops.

joy chaudhuri

[WingChunABQ]

Wonderful, thanks very much!

I presume that Master Fong's book is out of print?

[Vajramusti]

Wonderful, thanks very much!

I presume that Master Fong's book is out of print?
------------------------------------------------

yes

[couch]

Wonderful, thanks very much!

I presume that Master Fong's book is out of print?

Moy Yat's chops were made into a book.

http://14publishing.com/homepage.html

[WingChunABQ]

Very nice!

[Hendrik]

Cft,

Here more...

Please help to translate this. Your translation is better then mine. Thanks!


詠春拳勢法：

直取子午勢，
利我居主位，
勿当冲马劲,
横锁刁牛蹩,
封闭借来法,
鶴頂六弓勁，
蛇纏困節行，
用中本無形。

詠春拳所謂鶴頂蛇纒者：

鶴頂者為吸化弓彈肢體之勁力
蛇纒者為粘貼困梆關節之靈活

易金小練頭第三段訣云：
拱手柝力要均勻
撕手能破長橋法

拱手者用六弓之勁吸化驚彈發之
撕手者以蛇行之功纒挷困節制之

[Yoshiyahu]

I dont know chinese!



Cft,

Here more...

Please help to translate this. Your translation is better then mine. Thanks!


詠春拳勢法：

直取子午勢，
利我居主位，
勿当冲马劲,
横锁刁牛蹩,
封闭借来法,
鶴頂六弓勁，
蛇纏困節行，
用中本無形。

詠春拳所謂鶴頂蛇纒者：

鶴頂者為吸化弓彈肢體之勁力
蛇纒者為粘貼困梆關節之靈活

易金小練頭第三段訣云：
拱手柝力要均勻
撕手能破長橋法

拱手者用六弓之勁吸化驚彈發之
撕手者以蛇行之功纒挷困節制之

[Hendrik]

lets wait for CFT help to do a proper translation.

[CFT]

I like my Chinese in traditional characters :)

1st half:

詠春拳勢法：

直取子午勢，
利我居主位，
勿當衝馬勁,
橫鎖刁牛蹩,
封閉借來法,
鶴頂六弓勁，
蛇纏困節行，
用中本無形。

Wing Chun momentum method:

Directly take the center* momentum,
The lead position benefits me,
Do not take the charging horse's power,
Horizontal lock hobbles the crafty ox,
Seal/Close borrows the incoming force,
Crane supports six bow power,
Snake coils traps joint movement,
In application it has no form.

* center = center line

[CFT]

2nd half:

詠春拳所謂鶴頂蛇纒者：
Wing Chun's so-called Crane top Snake coil:

鶴頂者為吸化弓彈肢體之勁力
蛇纒者為粘貼困梆關節之靈活
The Crane supports the power of absorbing, dissolving, catapulting* limbs
The Snake coil is the agility in sticking and trapping of joints

* [reminds me of the ballistic limb displacement that KGledhill talks about]


易金小練頭第三段訣雲：
Yik Kam Siu Lien Tau 3rd section kuit says:

拱手柝力要均勻
撕手能破長橋法
Saluting hand* splitting power** must be even
Tearing hand can break the long bridge method

拱手者用六弓之勁吸化驚彈發之
撕手者以蛇行之功纒挷困節制之
Saluting hand uses the six bow power to absorb, dissolve, shock, repel, expel
Tearing hand uses snake movement power to wrap, tie, trap, restrain

* Saluting hand = gung sau
** Is there a typo? 柝力 should be 拆力?

[Hendrik]

I like my Chinese in traditional characters :)

1st half:

詠春拳勢法：

直取子午勢，
利我居主位，
勿當衝馬勁,
橫鎖刁牛蹩,
封閉借來法,
鶴頂六弓勁，
蛇纏困節行，
用中本無形。

Wing Chun momentum method:

Directly take the meridian momentum,
The lead position benefits me,
Do not take the charging horse's power,
Horizontal lock hobbles the crafty ox,
Seal/Close borrows the incoming force,
Crane top six bow power,
Snake coils traps joint movement,
In application it has no form.


Thanks CFT,

the traditional character indeed looks more artistic .

子午 is center as center line. This term is the ancient term adapted from the white crane of fujian.

鶴頂 is crane withstand

[LoneTiger108]

Good work again you pair :) and thanks for sharing Hendrik

[CFT]

Meridian is another name for the centre line, but I'll amend anyway.

Not sure what you mean by 'crane withstand'? What does the 'ding' (頂) mean?

EDIT: ah, I think I might see what you mean. That the crane can 'stand up to' or resist the six bow power?

[Hendrik]

2nd half:

詠春拳所謂鶴頂蛇纒者：
Wing Chun's so-called Crane top Snake coil:

鶴頂者為吸化弓彈肢體之勁力
蛇纒者為粘貼困梆關節之靈活
The Crane top is the power of absorbing, dissolving, catapulting* limbs
The Snake coil is the agility in sticking and trapping of joints

* [reminds me of the ballistic limb displacement that KGledhill talks about]


易金小練頭第三段訣雲：
Yik Kam Siu Lien Tau 3rd section kuit says:

拱手柝力要均勻
撕手能破長橋法
Saluting hand* splitting power** must be even
Tearing hand can break the long bridge method

拱手者用六弓之勁吸化驚彈發之
撕手者以蛇行之功纒挷困節制之
Saluting hand uses the six bow power to absorb, dissolve, shock, repel, expel
Tearing hand uses snake movement power to wrap, tie, trap, restrain

* Saluting hand = gung sau
** Is there a typo? 柝力 should be 拆力?

You are right. 柝力 should be 拆力 .
拱手 is as 拱手譲人 or the wck double push hands As in woodern dummy.
拱手讓人is 來留去送脫手直冲。the key is 讓。

As it says 直取子午勢，
利我居主位，
勿當衝馬勁,
橫鎖刁牛蹩,
封閉借來法,

譲而取之。

It also said

鶴性不爭。以示鳳德。彬彬克敵。分寸之中。
Thus, WCK take the inner door with ease keep the opponent travel the big distance out side the door with the crane withstand.

as in

中門論－人體中門最弱，是攻擊目標，也是重點守護的地方。手由心發，上至頭頂，中為心窝，下達胯襠。老洪拳 、羅漢拳、鶴拳(包括空手道),則分四門八方。詠春則重中門內外。


撕手 is the 擒拿手

I take WCK as a fine art to investigate the beauty of this art.

[Hendrik]

Meridian is another name for the centre line, but I'll amend anyway.

Not sure what you mean by 'crane withstand'? What does the 'ding' (頂) mean?

EDIT: ah, I think I might see what you mean. That the crane can 'stand up to' or resist the six bow power?

Thanks again.

Yes on center line.
Just want share 詠春子午出自白鶴永春之子午中正。

頂yes stand up or withstand, not resist but capable to hold like a solid spring or bow To shoot. similar to the taiji peng jin. The key of this withstand power is the six bow development.

[Hendrik]

Good work again you pair :) and thanks for sharing Hendrik

We must thank CTF for his great work.

[CFT]

I don't think I have quite got the crane idea yet.

The snake coil (蛇纒) describes the proactive actions of the snake - the coiling/wrapping results in limiting the opponent's movement.

The 'crane withstands' (鶴頂) doesn't feel like a good English translation, because 'withstands' sounds like a passive action, when really it sounds like it supports the six bow power? How does 'crane supports the six bow power' sound?

[CFT]

頂yes stand up or withstand, not resist but capable to hold like a solid spring or bow To shoot. similar to the taiji peng jin. The key of this withstand power is the six bow development.Just to supplement what Hendrik has written here.

The original text has: 鶴頂者為吸化弓彈肢體之勁力

吸化 means absorbe and dissolve
弓彈 means to shoot from a bow
肢體 means the limbs

So the translation talks about Crane as the power of absorbing, dissolving, shooting limbs from a bow.

Now are these limbs your own or the opponents?

[Hendrik]

I don't think I have quite got the crane idea yet.

The snake coil (蛇纒) describes the proactive actions of the snake - the coiling/wrapping results in limiting the opponent's movement.

The 'crane withstands' (鶴頂) doesn't feel like a good English translation, because 'withstands' sounds like a passive action, when really it sounds like it supports the six bow power? How does 'crane supports the six bow power' sound?

Yes on crane withstand, we must find a good way to translate it for the western wcners.



鶴頂。is a 彈弓頂勁。頂as頂住。頂勁 is a result of 六弓or 六力。so it is the bow which support or generate this type of 頂勁。

It is active within passive like the spring power or bow. As it says 你不來我不發。

Also please take a look my previous post, I added some more inner and outer gate information.

[Hendrik]

Just to supplement what Hendrik has written here.

The original text has: 鶴頂者為吸化弓彈肢體之勁力

吸化 means absorbe and dissolve
弓彈 means to shoot from a bow
肢體 means the limbs

So the translation talks about Crane as the power of absorbing, dissolving, shooting limbs from a bow.

Now are these limbs your own or the opponents?

Opponents limbs for crane
Opponents joints for snake



This is a excellent sample clip for snake coil, By Gm Fung Chun and Sergio.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1157733&postcount=12




This is an excellent sample of crane " withstand" by David and Sergio

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSQgTu-v6EE



Thanks and appreciate to Gm Fung, David, and Sergio.



Notice all the above follows
老洪拳 、羅漢拳、鶴拳(包括空手道),則分四門八方。

詠春則重中門內外。

Thus, we can see the evolution when the art Evolve into other arts mix.

[LoneTiger108]

I like these translations Chee and think you're spot on with much of it.

But to play a little Devils Advocate, are there actual training 'examples' of each of these lines Hendrik?? What I mean is, do you associate a set of ideas with each line or are they just used to put across the advice itself while teaching the SLT set?

FWIW The terms used and the way most of it is structured (5 characters per line) it is obviously about power development (to me) but it does still look/sound like personal notes maybe. Yours Hendrik or Yik Kams? That's my question...

If they are Yik Kams or your own personal notes, I can appreciate the contibution you are making by sharing them here. I would just like to also see some of the advice in ACTION!! ;)

[k gledhill]

Loi lau hoi sung. Structure supports the elbow on the centerline, doesnt collapse, hips support...
latsao jik chung the arms, like lightning, strike as they are decompressed.

[Hendrik]

I like these translations Chee and think you're spot on with much of it.

But to play a little Devils Advocate, are there actual training 'examples' of each of these lines Hendrik?? What I mean is, do you associate a set of ideas with each line or are they just used to put across the advice itself while teaching the SLT set?

FWIW The terms used and the way most of it is structured (5 characters per line) it is obviously about power development (to me) but it does still look/sound like personal notes maybe. Yours Hendrik or Yik Kams? That's my question...

If they are Yik Kams or your own personal notes, I can appreciate the contibution you are making by sharing them here. I would just like to also see some of the advice in ACTION!! ;)


Look at how I present this subject in this way. Please take a look of all the previous posts.

First, there is a description of the WCK momentum method from my lineage notes.

Then, there is a sample example with the move in the third section of yik kam slt long set with thier kuen kuit explain.


So, for those who train in yik kam slt know exactly which move which kuen kuit which implement the momentum type.


For those who doesn't know that two sample move in the third part of yik kam slt long
set, one can relate to them with the clip in action from sifu David and Gm Fung Chun to have a feel on how there are like.


Thus, from concept of momentum style writing, we can specifically find the implementation in yik kam long set slt third part and different lineages of WCK.


The writing is some yik kam kuen kuit and some my lineage and other lineage notes.

[Hendrik]

Loi lau hoi sung. Structure supports the elbow on the centerline, doesnt collapse, hips support...
latsao jik chung the arms, like lightning, strike as they are decompressed.

Yes that certainly describe the "crane withstand" part as sifu David shows.

The other "snake coil" part is as Gm Fung Chun presented .


the first two part of slt presenting these two core. One can check these across pre 1900 WCK lineages.

If one wants writing record one could look into the 1870 record of snake and crane WCK lineage with Wayne which is the sister lineage of yks lineage to see the present of these core.

So we have a good idea on how WCK core in the 1850. and we have a good idea on how it evolves today.

And when the momentum style or method is lost, WCK evolve further into other arts.

[k gledhill]

When aligned structure meets momentum unbalanced. It is easy to dissolve force that lacks focus.
Let stillness overcome motion.

LSJC drills in chi sao focus on intense energy exchanges through mutual structure 'tests'. Adding arm release as the channel of forces, creates explosive supported striking.
Adding seung ma toi mai..

Creates a formidable fighter.

[CFT]

拱手讓人is 來留去送脫手直冲。the key is 讓。譲而取之。Thanks Hendrik. I missed the first part about loi lau hoi sung (LLHS), tyut sau jik chung. I just saw the '譲而取之' (concede and then take) and thought it 'hey that sounds a lot like LLHS'.



It also said

鶴性不爭。以示鳳德。彬彬克敵。分寸之中。
Thus, WCK take the inner door with ease keep the opponent travel the big distance out side the door with the crane withstand.

as in

中門論－人體中門最弱，是攻擊目標，也是重點守護的地方。手由心發，上至頭頂，中為心窝，下達胯襠。老洪拳 、羅漢拳、鶴拳(包括空手道),則分四門八方。詠春則重中門內外。


I take WCK as a fine art to investigate the beauty of this art.The devil is in the details right? It seems there is a lot of commonality in the Wing Chun I have read about, i.e. the ideas are shared, but the problem is whether you have a well defined process to train it.

Translated for the benefit of others:

鶴性不爭。以示鳳德。彬彬克敵。分寸之中。
The crane's nature is not to fight. It shows the phoenix's virtue. Overcoming the opponent with cultivation. The difference is in inches.

[Kev G - one inch or death! ;)]


中門論－人體中門最弱，是攻擊目標，也是重點守護的地方。手由心發，上至頭頂，中為心窝，下達胯襠。老洪拳 、羅漢拳、鶴拳(包括空手道),則分四門八方。詠春則重中門內外。
Inner gate theory - a person's inner gate is the weakest, it is the goal of the attack, and is the emphasized area of defence. The hand (fist) comes from the heart, the highest is the corwn of the head, the middle is the chest, the lowest is the crotch. Old Hung fist, Lohan fist, Crane fist (including Karate), divides into 4 gates and 8 directions. Wing Chun emphasizes the inner gate within and without (inside and outside).

[k gledhill]

Once you see the intricate lines of interception and how to combat it, you will not waver fom the centerline. 1cm or......

The inner gate is jum jeung. 3 fok sao in slt aka jum jeung.
Outer tan jeung, but easy to let elbow spread out, compared to keeping it in...jum.

Together tan and jum .

[Hendrik]

Thanks Hendrik. I missed the first part about loi lau hoi sung (LLHS), tyut sau jik chung. I just saw the '譲而取之' (concede and then take) and thought it 'hey that sounds a lot like LLHS'.


The devil is in the details right? It seems there is a lot of commonality in the Wing Chun I have read about, i.e. the ideas are shared, but the problem is whether you have a well defined process to train it.

Translated for the benefit of others:

鶴性不爭。以示鳳德。彬彬克敵。分寸之中。
The crane's nature is not to fight. It shows the phoenix's virtue. Overcoming the opponent with cultivation. The difference is in inches.

[Kev G - one inch or death! ;)]


中門論－人體中門最弱，是攻擊目標，也是重點守護的地方。手由心發，上至頭頂，中為心窝，下達胯襠。老洪拳 、羅漢拳、鶴拳(包括空手道),則分四門八方。詠春則重中門內外。
Inner gate theory - a person's inner gate is the weakest, it is the goal of the attack, and is the emphasized area of defence. The hand (fist) comes from the heart, the highest is the corwn of the head, the middle is the chest, the lowest is the crotch. Old Hung fist, Lohan fist, Crane fist (including Karate), divides into 4 gates and 8 directions. Wing Chun emphasizes the inner gate within and without (inside and outside).

Thanks again.

Agree on the Needs clear process to develop it after we know what are they.

As you can see in David and Fung Chun clips, we can know what they are and know they exist in different lineaged of WCK. May be no one has the complete now but group the lineages together, the majority of the art is still there.

For me, the kuen kuit is responsible for describing the details. The five layers I propose is for a clear details process. Go visit Jim Rosalendo or Come visit me, We can shows you these details of my lineage. How every layer support others layers in details.


Btw, "the different is in inch " because or means wck capture or take and track the inner gate. That makes WCK faster , as David shows in his clip.

Of corse, Provided one has the type of power generation and frame or crane power, it is a well define advantage based on momentum method. WCK is simple and not using those four gate stuffs as other art that is my understanding.

[kung fu fighter]

Great thread guys!

Crane withstand= spring structure
Snake reel= flow and freedom of movement

[Hendrik]

Once you see the intricate lines of interception and how to combat it, you will not waver fom the centerline. 1cm or......

The inner gate is jum jeung. 3 fok sao in slt aka jum jeung.
Outer tan jeung, but easy to let elbow spread out, compared to keeping it in...jum.

Together tan and jum .

The different is in inch.

[Hendrik]

Great thread guys!

Crane withstand= spring structure
Snake reel= flow and freedom of movement

In term of the momentum layer.

Snake coil trapping joints.
Crane withstand bounce off limbs.


IMHO, with the five layers, we can define WCK in details .

[Hendrik]

We know what WCK is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBGm15iuNVQ

[k gledhill]

I can see a shared goal in all vt. Its the transmission of how to connect the dots. Some are simply missing dots ....or inventing for lack of them.

[Hendrik]

I can see a shared goal in all vt. Its the transmission of how to connect the dots. Some are simply missing dots ....or inventing for lack of them.

Sure.

Momentum types of an art is the signature of the art. Since martial art is for martial purpose, dealing with momentum is the goal.

Without knowing the momentum types of and art, one can practice the frame drill, the internal development and still not the art because those are the support. Knowing the momentum, frame, and internal development is the only path to develop a holistic art.


Take a look of all my previous posts since day one in this forum. They are all targeting towards the frame style, momentum style, and internal development as I understood. All the details are there.

We can know pretty well what is WCK 1850 today.

[LoneTiger108]

First, there is a description of the WCK momentum method from my lineage note.

Then, there is a sample example with the move in the third section of yik kam slt long set with thier kuen kuit explain.

So, for those who train in yik kam slt know exactly which move which kuen kuit which implement the momentum type...

... The writing is some yik kam kuen kuit and some my lineage note.

Thanks for clearing that up Hendrik.

The kuit you present actually sound like what I have experienced as far as learning methods are concerned, but all in all with totally different lines!

Which made me ask the question in the first place.

I'm actually thinking that what I have learnt is not from my Sifu or Sigung, because it's very classically set out and contains some much older language. Yes, there were personal notes in there too I'm sure, but most was just far too 'traditional' for it to be written in modern times.

I am sure you are right too. Not any one lineage will have everything, and we should try to work together if we want to rediscover what the ancestors have left behind for us all. The thing is, even within my own lineage, there are very few who even know if this stuffs existence. I believe my Sifu was the only student of Lee Shing to learn in this manner. Hence, why he has always been referred to as Lee Shings 'Kung Fu Son'.

[Hendrik]

Thanks for clearing that up Hendrik.

The kuit you present actually sound like what I have experienced as far as learning methods are concerned, but all in all with totally different lines!

Which made me ask the question in the first place.

I'm actually thinking that what I have learnt is not from my Sifu or Sigung, because it's very classically set out and contains some much older language. Yes, there were personal notes in there too I'm sure, but most was just far too 'traditional' for it to be written in modern times.

I am sure you are right too. Not any one lineage will have everything, and we should try to work together if we want to rediscover what the ancestors have left behind for us all. The thing is, even within my own lineage, there are very few who even know if this stuffs existence. I believe my Sifu was the only student of Lee Shing to learn in this manner. Hence, why he has always been referred to as Lee Shings 'Kung Fu Son'.


I have just edited my previous post to further clarify.
My lineage notes also include some other lineage note.

The key is to identify the momentum type , the language are just a described which can be in different way.

This is 2012 no longer 1850 every lineages have evolved.

[k gledhill]

Sure.

Momentum types of an art is the signature of the art. Since martial art is for martial purpose, dealing with momentum is the goal.

Without knowing the momentum types of and art, one can practice the frame drill, the internal development and still not the art because those are the support. Knowing the momentum, frame, and internal development is the only path to develop a holistic art.


Take a look of all my previous posts since day one in this forum. They are all targeting towards the frame style, momentum style, and internal development as I understood. All the details are there.

We can know pretty well what is WCK 1850 today.

Momentum control is key in VT, the more you see clearly the more 1cm can shift under motion.....Knowing how to take advantage is not so obvious, but when you see it , perfection and self-correction take on a endless pursuit.

[Hendrik]

Hope this discussion from all of us make positive contribution to a more clear learning for the wcners.

[LoneTiger108]

Hope this discussion from all of us make positive contribution to a more clear learning for the wcners.

Do they ever?! I would hope so too, but many people who have never met me can not take me seriously! I will predict the same for you Hendrik, as we have been debating this stuff for a few years now! :eek:

Funny really, because the people that I have met or trained with HAVE to take me seriously!! :)

[kung fu fighter]

Hendrik,

In pre 1850's wing chun is the crane and snake power generation always done individually as two separate entity one rapidly after the other? or fused together as one (crane withstand is done simultaneously with snake reeling) to create something that's different that either one done individually?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

In pre 1850's wing chun is the crane and snake power generation always done individually as two separate entity one rapidly after the other? or fused together as one (crane withstand is done simultaneously with snake reeling) to create something that's different that either one done individually?


In my understaning, the 1850's

they can do Both since they have the full engine well develop. They can do one arm snake the other arm crane, crane within snake, snake within crane...ect all different sort of things.



as an example

手法蛇行如水袖。 hand method snake slide similar to water sleeve.

example of water sleeve

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBKzsJLW9w4


法中暗藏䄂底勁。 within the ( snake )method hidden the under sleeve force. ( under sleeve force is a crane withstand bow power)


in today's example,
just think as in the water sleeve dance clip above, there is always a wrist snap inch power sun punch waiting to be triggled, at any instant the actress snap her long sleeve. that is the fusion of snake and crane with a snake engine.





Today's wooden dummy set is a good evidence of these stuffs.

Today the engine has goes into different directions due to evolution. Some is good at crane spring, some have snake coil remain, some evolve into different mix art such as spm ...ect. one can actually observe this in the lineage slt form. Just make a checking on frame, momentum, and engine or internal development. One can see how the lineage evolve into the present time.

The deal is, if one go extreme, if one has the momentum type but not the engine, it is still WCK. Because it still serve good/ advantage for martial purpose.

However, this type of evolution will not last long and limited , because the body cannot go full range without the engine. But the engine take long time to develop and not easy.

If one has the engine but know not the momentum. Then it is no longer WCK. Because it fight differently.





one other issue arise is the practice of slt.

those in the red boat like yik kam is condition and develop their body like the actress in the water sleeve clip. there is a big different to do slt that way compare to todays' very robotic rigid body way.


also, when they issue the jin, it is not hitting but snapping to shoot out. if force vector can be seen it will look like the sleeve shoot out. that is what issue means.





well, those are past.....
it is always fun to know and enjoy fine art like the Van Goh starry starry night or Beetoven's moon light sonata , but we cant go back .. let the beauty stay there forever. I no longer can do fighting because that violate buddhist precept, but it is ok to study and to know the details of the fine art of the past.

水的波光
劍的影子
只是過往的是過往

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_D0ChIdUqaE

[GlennR]

Do they ever?! I would hope so too, but many people who have never met me can not take me seriously! I will predict the same for you Hendrik, as we have been debating this stuff for a few years now! :eek:

Your prediction would be correct


Funny really, because the people that I have met or trained with HAVE to take me seriously!! :)


I assume they are restrained and under threat of torture ;)

[kung fu fighter]

In my understaning, the 1850's

they can do Both since they have the full engine well develop. They can do one arm snake the other arm crane, crane within snake, snake within crane...ect all different sort of things.



as an example

手法蛇行如水袖。 hand method snake slide similar to water sleeve.

example of water sleeve

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBKzsJLW9w4


法中暗藏䄂底勁。 within the ( snake )method hidden the under sleeve force. ( under sleeve force is a crane withstand bow power)


in today's example,
just think as in the water sleeve dance clip above, there is always a wrist snap inch power sun punch waiting to be triggled, at any instant the actress snap her long sleeve. that is the fusion of snake and crane with a snake engine.





Today's wooden dummy set is a good evidence of these stuffs.

Today the engine has goes into different directions due to evolution. Some is good at crane spring, some have snake coil remain, some evolve into different mix art such as spm ...ect. one can actually observe this in the lineage slt form. Just make a checking on frame, momentum, and engine or internal development. One can see how the lineage evolve into the present time.

The deal is, if one go extreme, if one has the momentum type but not the engine, it is still WCK. Because it still serve good/ advantage for martial purpose.

However, this type of evolution will not last long and limited , because the body cannot go full range without the engine. But the engine take long time to develop and not easy.

If one has the engine but know not the momentum. Then it is no longer WCK. Because it fight differently.





one other issue arise is the practice of slt.

those in the red boat like yik kam is condition and develop their body like the actress in the water sleeve clip. there is a big different to do slt that way compare to todays' very robotic rigid body way.


also, when they issue the jin, it is not hitting but snapping to shoot out. if force vector can be seen it will look like the sleeve shoot out. that is what issue means.





well, those are past.....
it is always fun to know and enjoy fine art like the Van Goh starry starry night or Beetoven's moon light sonata , but we cant go back .. let the beauty stay there forever. I no longer can do fighting because that violate buddhist precept, but it is ok to study and to know the details of the fine art of the past.

水的波光
劍的影子
只是過往的是過往

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_D0ChIdUqaE


Thanks Hendrik,

That was a very good explaination

[Hendrik]

Thanks Hendrik,

That was a very good explaination


You are welcome.

Do you see the bong and elbow in the water sleeve clip?


Get some dancer who do this type of dance to do the three sets of WCK naturally spontaneously, that would be the closest thing one can get to the original taste in the red boat.

Our body is just to rigid to reproduce the WCK taste.

[LoneTiger108]

Get some dancer who do this type of dance to do the three sets of WCK naturally spontaneously, that would be the closest thing one can get to the original taste in the red boat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDz9uJXySaQ

Check this clip out Hendrik (if you haven't done so before)

All my Sifus daughters practised traditional dance at some point, and when you let them interpret the first form freely and put up clips publically all they get is abuse! Read the comments and judge for yourself.

The key to all of our way is the revolution of the seed 'bong tan fook' and if you watch closely it is evident in her 'flow' throughout the form. But this is 'dance' isn't it? ;)

[Hendrik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDz9uJXySaQ

Check this clip out Hendrik (if you haven't done so before)

All my Sifus daughters practised traditional dance at some point, and when you let them interpret the first form freely and put up clips publically all they get is abuse! Read the comments and judge for yourself.

The key to all of our way is the revolution of the seed 'bong tan fook' and if you watch closely it is evident in her 'flow' throughout the form. But this is 'dance' isn't it? ;)


Thanks!

Good clip. And good comments.


She is doing her best but not there yet, the commenters are saying the facts according to their logic.

IMHO,
It is not a dance yet because her handling on body integration is still fragmented. It is not wing Chun yet because her six bow are jamming. There is no flow but posture mimicking. Put a young girl in this position is no good. She needs proper coaching .


It is the same with this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC9ziy6kAag
One can not take it serious at all.


These type of practice will never be able to implement the momentum methods in this thread.

[Hendrik]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=%E9%99%B3%E5%98%89%E6%A1%93%20%E8%A9%A0%E6%98%A5 %20youtube&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDkQtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D0-NgwTa0L9M&ei=Gr47T8nPKdDMiQKFtuCSDA&usg=AFQjCNHsCO_42uCyaSaE8HMtoi-3acGxDw&sig2=KfMj1mYeQ2qaREDXuoGQ3g

Same with this one. The full body integration or snake engine and the bows are not there. These are fragile action which will break into piece when facing a high intensity momentum.


WCK momentum method is excellent, but it still needs a solid minimum Based to execute.

[k gledhill]

A good SLT with tan & jum elbows maintained before doing wu sao and elbow out, a simple action that opens the inside gate or shuts it...subtle but changes striking ideas profoundly.
M Kurth SLT (http://www.michaelkurth.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16&Itemid=20)

[LoneTiger108]

IMHO,
It is not a dance yet because her handling on body integration is still fragmented. It is not wing Chun yet because her six bow are jamming. There is no flow but posture mimicking. Put a young girl in this position is no good. She needs proper coaching .

It is the same with this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC9ziy6kAag
One can not take it serious at all.

You know what Hendrik, I actually agree with you here!! :)

[chunner]

Thanks!

Good clip. And good comments.


She is doing her best but not there yet, the commenters are saying the facts according to their logic.

IMHO,
It is not a dance yet because her handling on body integration is still fragmented. It is not wing Chun yet because her six bow are jamming. There is no flow but posture mimicking. Put a young girl in this position is no good. She needs proper coaching .


It is the same with this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC9ziy6kAag
One can not take it serious at all.


These type of practice will never be able to implement the momentum methods in this thread.

what are the momentum methods you're referring to exactly?

[Hendrik]

CFT,

Please help.


只要練拳時。時時察覺有六個方向的力同時存在造成resultant force就是下手懂六方向力的第一歩。

好似行船。要對四面水流風向有感覺。不是用力橫著干。不是思想是要練出身體直覺可以平衡面對的變化向量力。 練縭手或對打時這是其中一主項。

又。古人以氣脈如奇經八脈的通順和關節靈活做為人體動作順暢的指標。所以講究通脈氣和𨶹節六合。如此才能全 面掌握身體用力。才能做到拳從心發。力從地起。六力合一。用中無形。實在不是容易。練內功氣功的作用𨶹係在 此。

[Hendrik]

what are the momentum methods you're referring to exactly?

The WCK momentum methods describe in the kuit of this thread.

[kung fu fighter]

I can understand how snake reel, crane withstand works when in contact with the opponent, But how is the snake reel, and crane withstand used to close the gap/distance with an opponent? do you step forward to meet/intercept his attack? or wait for him to come into your space then move off his attacking line allowing his force to pass by you?


Which one of these apply?

Never stop the rushing horse incoming power.
横锁刁牛蹩, Sideway lock the bull's feet.
封闭借来法, Seal off and close the opponent down borrowing the method of incoming attack.

我常自在静, I am remain within the silence
大开诱来攻, open up to seduce the incoming attack
利我居主位, This way I have an advantage of being the lead of the situation.

[Hendrik]

I can understand how snake reel, crane withstand works when in contact with the opponent, But how is the snake reel, and crane withstand used to close the gap/distance with an opponent?

do you step forward to meet/intercept his attack?
or wait for him to come into your space then move off his attacking line allowing his force to pass by you?


Which one of these apply?

Never stop the rushing horse incoming power.
横锁刁牛蹩, Sideway lock the bull's feet.
封闭借来法, Seal off and close the opponent down borrowing the method of incoming attack.

我常自在静, I am remain within the silence
大开诱来攻, open up to seduce the incoming attack
利我居主位, This way I have an advantage of being the lead of the situation.


it already tells you in these kuits. but you need to use the kuit as in the beginning of this thread and not mix up as you post above.


you can let him come or attack him. you can attack him and lead him in. you can lead him and attack him. you can use either snake or crane to implement these. the key is to take out his center line inner gate and not playing with his arm with crane or snake.



silence doesnt means one dont move. silence means be aware and not fix in thinking.

open up means target his inner gate center line, lead him to attack from out side to take the long distance. WCK is started late but arrive early.

but there is no fix formula if you looking for one.


take a look at David or Gary Lam or GM Fung Chun's clips for some examples.

[kung fu fighter]

it already tells you in these kuits.
silence doesnt means one dont move. silence means be aware and not fix in thinking..

So of all the emei kuen kuit above, the one which applies to closing distance with the opponent is the silence one?


you can let him come or attack him. you can attack him and lead him in. you can lead him and attack him. you can use either snake or crane to implement these..

So you can either step forward to meet/intercept the opponent's attack or wait for him to step into your range?

Would you say the nature of the crane withstand is to wait for the opponent to step into you, where as in the snake reel, you step forward to intercept the opponent's attack?





open up means target his inner gate center line, lead him to attack from out side to take the long distance. WCK is started late but arrive early. the key is to take out his center line inner gate and not playing with his arm with crane or snake intecepting....etc. .

Not sure what you mean by his " inner gate center line", is this roughly the opponent's spinal colomn? can you give a little more details about where this is on the body?

Can you give a couple of examples of how to "lead him to attack from out side to take the long distance"?

In regards to timing, how is this applied "WCK is started late but arrive early"? is it done in one beat (direct counter strike/intercepting) or two beats timing (evade or block first then counter strike)?

[Hendrik]

So of all the emei kuen kuit above, the one which applies to closing distance with the opponent is the silence one?


WCK kuen kuit says " come accept goes go with it, let go thrust forward and using silence to lead action. one needs to be in silence at all movement and non movement.





So you can either step forward to meet/intercept the opponent's attack or wait for him to step into your range?



WCK goal is to take down or destroy the inner gate center line. just that.
step forward or back ward or wait.....etc. do whatever can get the job done.





Would you say the nature of the crane with and is to wait for the opponent to step into you, where as in the snake reel, you step forward to intercept the opponent's attack?

reading this tell me you are still not clear on what those are. those are just tools use them as needed supporting the WCK momentum method.






Not sure what you mean by his " inner gate center line", can you give a little more details about where this is on the body?


k gledhill,

Do you like to share please? you describe these better then me in english.



Can you give a couple of examples of how to "lead him to attack from out side to take the long distance"?

i mean lead him to attack from the outer gate taking the longer path when WCner control and stay in the inner gate.

Take a look at previous Sifu David clip on this thread. he did a good job showing. we must thank his work.




In regards to timing, how is this applied "WCK is started late but arrive early"? is it done in one beat (direct counter strike/intercepting) or two beats timing (evade or block first then counter strike)?

it is different then what you have in mind.
WCK momentum method is designed for starting late but arrive early. as it says others walk the bow, I walk the bow string.

it is a very unique design for targeting, time, and space handling. those who knows just take the inner gate center line to implement these spontaneously. dont even need to think at all. the different is in inches.

I really suggest you to learn this from Sifu David Peterson clip and write a thank you note to him.

[kung fu fighter]

WCK kuen kuit says " come accept goes go with it, let go thrust forward and using silence to lead action. one needs to be in silence at all movement and non movement..

So comes accept, goes go with it, let go thrust forward and using silence to lead action, not only has to do when in contact with the opponent's bridges. But can also be used to deal with the opponent when no bridge exists, like for example when you have to close in on a long range mobile fighter who does everything he can to avoid bridging or getting in close?


WCK goal is to take down or destroy the inner gate center line. just that. step forward or back ward or wait.....etc. do whatever can get the job done. .

What exact is " inner gate center line? is it roughly the opponent's centerline/spinal column?


Take a look at previous Sifu David clip on this thread. he did a good job showing. we must thank his work..


not sure what i am supposed to be looking for in the clip, how far into the clip?

[Hendrik]

So comes accept, goes go with it, let go thrust forward and using silence to lead action, not only has to do when in contact with the opponent's bridges. But can also be used to deal with the opponent when no bridge exists, like for example when you have to close in on a long range mobile fighter who does everything he can to avoid bridging or getting in close?



What exact is " inner gate center line? is it roughly the opponent's centerline/spinal column?




not sure what i am supposed to be looking for in the clip, how far into the clip?

For me,

1. the kuit above is for momentum handling. Bridge or no bridge momentum is always there.

2. Try to re read previous posts .

3. The whole sifu David clip.

[kung fu fighter]

For me, the kuit above is for momentum handling. Bridge or no bridge momentum is always there.

How does the kuen kuit "comes accept, goes go with it, let go thrust forward and using silence to lead action" apply to a boxer's uncommitted probing jabs, since it doesn't have any committed momentum, but is used to entice a response from you, so that he can create openings for his rear hand fully commited power shots such as rear cross and hook?

[Hendrik]

How does the kuen kuit "comes accept, goes go with it, let go thrust forward and using silence to lead action" apply to a boxer's uncommitted probing jabs, since it doesn't have any committed momentum, but is used to entice a response from you, so that he can create openings for his rear hand fully commited power shots such as rear cross and hook?

Anything move has a momentum committed or not.
As for how one response to It , is one's choice and there are many choices .

You seem trying to look for a WCK formula. I don't believe that exist because life and real time goes beyond thinking and formula following.

[kung fu fighter]

Anything move has a momentum committed or not.
As for how one response to It , is one's choice and there are many choices .

You seem trying to look for a WCK formula. I don't believe that exist because life and real time goes beyond thinking and formula following.

What are some ways that you deal with the opponent's probing jabs?

[Hendrik]

What are some ways that you deal with the opponent's probing jabs?

Different case by case. Isn't it that is the reason for keep training and improving so that one can deal with it spontaneously in action instead of theoritzed in the mind?

[LoneTiger108]

Can you look into this block of Kuit Chee? Just a small example of what is already out there which I think is quite interesting...

詠春拳訣

詠春絕技　源自少林　招無虎鶴　法無五行
只談線位　力與角度　同門技力　四位三度
以弱勝強　始是功夫　內外相消　並無絕招
蓄勁似蛇　發勁似貓　朝形似雞　陰陽發力
不行心意　只用精神　來留去送　甩手直沖
梅花五點　手腳互通　門分內外　手有生死
勁發六合　力從地起　發勁在腰　出招在膊
力未還原　切忌出手　寸內發勁　力有對錯
發盡散盡　散盡發盡　力有八種　當知分間
真假虛實　蓄谷鬆散　線有安危　主分內外
頂位定位　得不追手　拳入三關　任我行走
馬有五敗　十者九壞　演挾跪撐　攤身最慣
敵手行橋　必須落馬　蹬腰作勢　為搶內門
上不過膊　中不過爭　下三路手　以腳消腳
擺放有威　打須有勢　三角朝形　線守分明
橋行中線　指尾垂地　正身子午　側身爭底
兩點之間　直線最短　轉馬朝形　以圓化直
敵壓三關　以橫打直　拳有三尖　掌有三角
有身打身　無身打頸　怕打終打　貪打防空
以攻為守　以守為攻　追形接打　變化無窮
三樁三拳　步手身全　地腳梅花　木人紅船
念頭主守　尋橋打手　追形之始　求諸標指
旁邊輔助　箭槌八種　走馬斜角　幡龍跳躍
固定標步　半全起腳　練力之法　階段五重
鬆沉穩勁　清脆玲瓏　先鬆後緊　再緊後鬆
鬆鬆緊緊　循環不窮　邪行仇念　正用精神
假想有敵　不可用心　意投於外　一點精神
反覆練習　配合由勤　手腳屬我　控制隨心
升肩聳膊　氣提不利　意沉身穩　高低無忌
發力出招　必第一下　手腳發力　與身無關
力無定位　喉嚨爭膊　嘴不閉氣　力發無形
動靜無礙　語出如寧　拳爭掌膊　也可傷人
中路邊欄　拋橋窒手　詠春八手　皆可攻守
標圈伏綁　綑刮耕攤　可從中破　綑手橫攔
綁有正錯　錯非真錯　按頭屹尾　按尾屹頭
中間綁起　有影無形　武欲精通　唯從苦練
先成後化　先化後成　刀切雖齊　墨守成規
藝能巧變　將形補位　因緣各就　殊途同歸

With thanks to the Ip Man brotherhood in Singapore

http://singaporewingchun.friendhood.net/t12-wing-chun-kuen-kuit

[Hendrik]

Can you look into this block of Kuit Chee? Just a small example of what is already out there which I think is quite interesting...

詠春拳訣

詠春絕技　源自少林　招無虎鶴　法無五行
只談線位　力與角度　同門技力　四位三度
以弱勝強　始是功夫　內外相消　並無絕招
蓄勁似蛇　發勁似貓　朝形似雞　陰陽發力
不行心意　只用精神　來留去送　甩手直沖
梅花五點　手腳互通　門分內外　手有生死
勁發六合　力從地起　發勁在腰　出招在膊
力未還原　切忌出手　寸內發勁　力有對錯
發盡散盡　散盡發盡　力有八種　當知分間
真假虛實　蓄谷鬆散　線有安危　主分內外
頂位定位　得不追手　拳入三關　任我行走
馬有五敗　十者九壞　演挾跪撐　攤身最慣
敵手行橋　必須落馬　蹬腰作勢　為搶內門
上不過膊　中不過爭　下三路手　以腳消腳
擺放有威　打須有勢　三角朝形　線守分明
橋行中線　指尾垂地　正身子午　側身爭底
兩點之間　直線最短　轉馬朝形　以圓化直
敵壓三關　以橫打直　拳有三尖　掌有三角
有身打身　無身打頸　怕打終打　貪打防空
以攻為守　以守為攻　追形接打　變化無窮
三樁三拳　步手身全　地腳梅花　木人紅船
念頭主守　尋橋打手　追形之始　求諸標指
旁邊輔助　箭槌八種　走馬斜角　幡龍跳躍
固定標步　半全起腳　練力之法　階段五重
鬆沉穩勁　清脆玲瓏　先鬆後緊　再緊後鬆
鬆鬆緊緊　循環不窮　邪行仇念　正用精神
假想有敵　不可用心　意投於外　一點精神
反覆練習　配合由勤　手腳屬我　控制隨心
升肩聳膊　氣提不利　意沉身穩　高低無忌
發力出招　必第一下　手腳發力　與身無關
力無定位　喉嚨爭膊　嘴不閉氣　力發無形
動靜無礙　語出如寧　拳爭掌膊　也可傷人
中路邊欄　拋橋窒手　詠春八手　皆可攻守
標圈伏綁　綑刮耕攤　可從中破　綑手橫攔
綁有正錯　錯非真錯　按頭屹尾　按尾屹頭
中間綁起　有影無形　武欲精通　唯從苦練
先成後化　先化後成　刀切雖齊　墨守成規
藝能巧變　將形補位　因緣各就　殊途同歸

With thanks to the Ip Man brotherhood in Singapore

http://singaporewingchun.friendhood.net/t12-wing-chun-kuen-kuit


In my understanding,

This kuen kuit is a compose by the student of Ciu chao in hong kong in the 1980.the movie making era of hong kong. It actually is problematic and contradiction due to mixing different ideas and the composer idea not accord with the WCK root.

[LoneTiger108]

Interesting Hendrik, but no Wing Chun movies were made in the eighties were they?? Late seventies maybe ;)

I noticed straight away the Tiger/Crane referencing but I think to simply dismiss it because it doesn't match with what you have is a bit narrow minded. Why, in your opinion, is it so wrong?

It's not the same as what I have learnt, but it IS interesting to see couplets like this put together imho

[kung fu fighter]

the key is to take out his center line inner gate and not playing with his arm with crane or snake.

What defines his centerline inner gate?

There are 3 gates of the arm wrist, elbow, shoulder, are you referrring to ocupying the space on the opponent's center line between his elbow and shoulder gates?

[Hendrik]

Interesting Hendrik, but no Wing Chun movies were made in the eighties were they?? Late seventies maybe ;)

I noticed straight away the Tiger/Crane referencing but I think to simply dismiss it because it doesn't match with what you have is a bit narrow minded. Why, in your opinion, is it so wrong?

It's not the same as what I have learnt, but it IS interesting to see couplets like this put together imho


I have communicate with the student of the person who is composing this kuit. And this kuit also has been modified since then.


As for the tiger and crane, it is trouble because it violate the fact that snake and crane WCK lineage has in writing. Recording what is WCK in 1870. Also in WCK there are snake shape hand as in the first part of slt across WCK lineage.

We know the composer is from Ip man lineage which some how get his view from his evolution however that cannot applied to the pre 1900 WCK lineage and it will mislead the westerners with this type of claim if not properly explain. I would not say this person is wrong and narrow minded because he did his best. However, we need to be careful, as we know that two snake and crane section in the slt. If these things get evolve away then it is no longer WCK but a new evolve art.

[Hendrik]

What defines his centerline inner gate?

There are 3 gates of the arm wrist, elbow, shoulder, are you referrring to ocupying the space on the opponent's center line between his elbow and shoulder gates?

In brief, Take it as center line and the body trunk within the Two shoulders.

[kung fu fighter]

In brief, Take it as center line and the body trunk within the Two shoulders.

Ok, that makes sense, so you want to control the opponent's body trunk itself within the two shoulders as well as the centerline, not the space in front of it?

When you say centerline, are you referring to controling the opponent's centerline?

[Hendrik]

Ok, that makes sense, so you want to control the opponent's body trunk itself within the two shoulders as well as the centerline, not the space in front of it?

You want to shoot the tiger or the space in front of the tiger?

[kung fu fighter]

You want to shoot the tiger or the space in front of the tiger?

Ok, got you, Hendrik thanks for taking the time to explain it, sometimes a simple thing can be hard to picture without details. This makes so much sense, especially in regards to why wck is trained the way it is in regards to strategy.

[Hendrik]

Ok, got you, Hendrik thanks for taking the time to explain it, sometimes a simple thing can be hard to picture without details. This makes so much sense, especially in regards to why wck is trained the way it is in regards to strategy.

You are welcome.

[Hendrik]

CFT,

Please help me on this on.


只要練拳時。時時察覺有六個方向的力同時存在造成resultant force就是下手懂六方向力的第一歩。

好似行船。要對四面水流風向有感覺。不是用力橫著干。不是玩思想是要練出身體直覺可以平衡面對的變化向量力 。練縭手或對打時這是其中一主項。

又。古人以氣脈如奇經八脈的通順和關節靈活做為人體動作順暢的指標。所以講究通脈氣和關節六合。如此才能全 面掌握身體用力。才能做到拳從心發。力從地起。六力合一。用中無形。實在不是容易。練內功氣功的作用關係在 此。

[LoneTiger108]

We know the composer is from Ip man lineage which some how get his view from his evolution however that cannot applied to the pre 1900 WCK lineage and it will mislead the westerners with this type of claim if not properly explain. I would not say this person is wrong and narrow minded because he did his best. However, we need to be careful, as we know that two snake and crane section in the slt. If these things get evolve away then it is no longer WCK but a new evolve art.

Thanks for sharing your own research. At lleast, if anything, it proves that Ip Man knew of Kuen Kuit and even influenced his students to look into it further.

So, from this response and opinion, what you're saying is that Ip Mans Wing Chun is no longer WCK because it has been evolved beyond you pre 1900 WCK?

I can't agree with that. The purpose of Wing Chun IS to evolve, so I can't see why you are wishing to hang on to developments that were done in the pre 1900's when they too look 'personal' to me. An individuals input into the system is great, don't get me wrong, but to simply dismiss any recent developments from recognized practitioners is insane.

[CFT]

Hendrik, are these your personal thoughts? It would be nice to know something about the source of this material. Please review the translation:

只要練拳時。時時察覺有六個方向的力同時存在造成resultant force就是下手懂六方向力的第一歩。
When in training, as long as we are aware of simultaneous forces from 6 directions causing a resultant force, this is the 1st step to understanding the 6-directional force.

好似行船。要對四面水流風向有感覺。不是用力橫著干。不是玩思想是要練出身體直覺可以平衡面對 的變化向量力 。練縭手或對打時這是其中一主項。
Like sailing. It requires sensing of the currents from 4 directions and the wind direction. It not about using brute force. Not about playing with ideas. It is about training an instinct to balance the changing vector forces we face. When training chi sao or sparring, this is one of the main points.

又。古人以氣脈如奇經八脈的通順和關節靈活做為人體動作順暢的指標。所以講究通脈氣和關節六合 。如此才能全 面掌握身體用力。才能做到拳從心發。力從地起。六力合一。用中無形。實在不是容易。練內功氣功 的作用關係在 此。
Also, the ancients used the qi (breath) and mai (vessels) like the flow of the 8 extraordinary vessels (qi jing ba mai / kei ging bat mak) and nimbleness of the joints as indicators of the smoothness of human motion.

So we pay attention to open vessels (mai), even breath and 6 joint harmony. Only then can we comprehensively use the body's power. Only then can we use 'fist from the heart'. 6 powers in harmony. In application no shape. In truth this is not easy. Training inner power (neigong) and breath (qigong) and its practical effects are related here.

[LoneTiger108]

Have any of you heard or studied any of Jiu Wans work??

[Hendrik]

Thanks for sharing your own research. At lleast, if anything, it proves that Ip Man knew of Kuen Kuit and even influenced his students to look into it further.

So, from this response and opinion, what you're saying is that Ip Mans Wing Chun is no longer WCK because it has been evolved beyond you pre 1900 WCK?

I can't agree with that. The purpose of Wing Chun IS to evolve, so I can't see why you are wishing to hang on to developments that were done in the pre 1900's when they too look 'personal' to me. An individuals input into the system is great, don't get me wrong, but to simply dismiss any recent developments from recognized practitioners is insane.

1. We agree or not, the fact is.

There are pre 1900 common denominator of WCK. Where WCK still hot from the red boat. That Define WCK.

As we can see Yip man WCK is no longer the WCK of chan wah soon lineage which he is from. Yip man WCK is also evolve from the pre 1900 WCK group.

There is nothing wrong with evolution. But, claiming WCK has no crane in a kuit is violating the pre 1900 WCK common denominator. That is misleading.


2. Evolution is natural, however, one must be honest to state one's evolution.
Making claim such as the WCK has no crane above violating the basic platform of WCK is problem.

3. If one evolve the WCK outside the WCK platform, then it is no longer WCK. one needs to be able to do the basic common denominator of pre 1900 to satisfy as WCK.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, are these your personal thoughts? It would be nice to know something about the source of this material. Please review the translation:

只要練拳時。時時察覺有六個方向的力同時存在造成resultant force就是下手懂六方向力的第一歩。
When in training, as long as we are aware of simultaneous forces from 6 directions causing a resultant force, this is the 1st step to understanding the 6-directional force.

好似行船。要對四面水流風向有感覺。不是用力橫著干。不是玩思想是要練出身體直覺可以平衡面對 的變化向量力 。練縭手或對打時這是其中一主項。
Like sailing. It requires sensing of the currents from 4 directions and the wind direction. It not about using strength to push the pole. Not about playing with ideas. It is about training an instinct to balance the changing vector forces we face. When training chi sao or sparring, this is one of the main points.

(干 should be 杆?)

又。古人以氣脈如奇經八脈的通順和關節靈活做為人體動作順暢的指標。所以講究通脈氣和關節六合 。如此才能全 面掌握身體用力。才能做到拳從心發。力從地起。六力合一。用中無形。實在不是容易。練內功氣功 的作用關係在 此。
Also, the ancients used the qi (breath) and mai (vessels) like the flow of the 8 extraordinary vessels (qi jing ba mai / kei ging bat mak) and nimbleness of the joints as indicators of the smoothness of human motion.

So we pay attention to open vessels (mai), even breath and 6 joint harmony. Only then can we comprehensively use the body's power. Only then can we use 'fist from the heart'. 6 powers in harmony. In application no shape.
In truth this is not easy. It train inner power (neigong) and breath (qigong) and its practical effects are related here.



CFT,

Thanks x1000.

This is my personal experience note from the training of yik kam slt. It is a general big picture of the yik kam slt process for development. Since you mention process in the previous post, this is a brief of it. Internal art has its place and relationship to support martial application, momentum needs to be support by six directional force "ready" physical body. There is no mysterious at all but never applied wrong thing such as internal art to looking for qi blast or magic force.

橫著干mean do as one like brute force without considerate of the situation and condition.

[LoneTiger108]

Making claim such as the WCK has no crane above violating the basic platform of WCK is problem.

Does it actually say that? The impression it gave me was that it is not to be confused with the Tiger/Crane method from Shaolin.


If one evolve the WCK outside the WCK platform, then it is no longer WCK. one needs to be able to do the basic common denominator of pre 1900 to satisfy as WCK.

Which is??

Do you mean the finger tracing huensau signature of guys like Fung Chun?

[Hendrik]

1. Tiger crane stuffs are confusing . Thus, it is best to not get into those.

2. There are lots of common denominator ranges from technics, momentum..ect
Not a single event , because today WCK we all have parts of them but no one is have it all.

[Hendrik]

A brief introduction to the content of the Yik Kam SLT Kuen kuit


To whom who is interested


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2DLME_DsHY

[Hendrik]

These are two classical from red boat Era make into wall paper or poster.

They are from the yik kam and snake crane lineages of the red boat 1850 era. They describe from big picture to very details instruction of siu Lin tau practice.

hope it can be taken as practicing reference to master siu Lin tau set as the red boat era standard.



Since it is a kuen kuit, one must not just take it as just a writing and translate it to understand. Each line is a code and some code link to other older then wing Chun to the root Such as the emei 12 zhuang Or white crane of fujian. Started from this issues of new martial hero, these lines are decode and open to public accompany with the particular movement or handling of the slt.

Here on, WCK has it own full art description from the ancient , such as taiji or other internal art of china. This is the evidence of ancient WCK is deep and complete as other Chinese ancient internal art.

Please wait while some work is going on, It is more then just translation. So, that is the difficulties. Thus, it is present in its most original form first , and later the encoding will come . And also expected with different version.




These two writings are telling the same story and supporting each others even though they are from two differents unrelated wck lineages for past 160 years. They Can be merged as one as the following. Using one as the big picture and other to fill the details.


any way, enjoy, and have a happy chinese luna new year, The year of Snake.



「雙訣合一」 the merge of the two kuits.


1。歌說: 白鶴戲水蛇歸洞
訣曰：聚意會神平肩檔。兩手前起分陰陽
左腿跘出有善惡。右跟屈勁緊反藏
會合丹田督脈降。

2。歌說：飛麟九轉表掌通
訣曰：手臂鞭出橫力勁
神寄指爪䄂底旁。旋迥自然順脈氣。

3。歌說：「蛇鶴爭揮堵勁融」
訣曰：掌背向外神意足。翻掌抽纏對心防。

4。歌說：「鶴足三提翼四功」
訣曰：單橫相撐合氣運。相抱沉身力橫分
前虛急用擒伏法。下叉飛雙插翼忙
合實雙掌穿心貫。下沉關元背攻上
一任自然脈安祥。

5。歌說：白鶴摺翼登天際
訣曰：企掌屈肘單昭陽
上下飛花勁脈暢。呑吐如虹發力罡
下結關元參佛手。一任自然氣脈長。

[Hendrik]

we add in two lines in the photo,

it says,

the shadow of sword, the reflection of the water, past but not forgotten.

this is to say we know the uprising of 1850 red boat, we know the pre and post WCK using in that uprising, it is past but not forgotten.

We now have the connection 160 years later........ these part we can preserve here on. East or West, now we have the same information. I hope it will benifits WCners here on.


It is a pride to be a WCner, since WCK is rich with culture and internal cultivation in additional to the pragmatic in combat. in fact, WCK stood on the shoulder of the two very strong mother art , the White Crane of Fujian and the Emei 12 Zhuang internal system. and was applied in the uprising of 1850. so, it is an art with deep root. We now have solid evidence to say these.

[Hendrik]

if you like a chinese cheography type, here is a Yik Kam kuen kuit part. later we might have a snake crane part, our friend is just too busy to keep up with our demand on writing. these writing applied to YKS , IpMan, and Snake Crane SNT, and Yik Kam SLT part one.

[Hendrik]

Try these photo with your iPad as wall paper or back ground!

[Hendrik]

SLT kuen kuit from the Red boat era 1850 wall paper


enjoy!

[Vajramusti]

Hi Hendrik-is that original calligraphy from the 1850s? Source? What does it say exactly?

[Paddington]

Hi Hendrik-is that original calligraphy from the 1850s? Source? What does it say exactly?

I too really want to know!

[Hendrik]

It is a new calligraphy of the siu Lin Tao kuit of Both the snake crane WCK and yik kam WCK lineages.

With a new first page saying, "red boat 1850, Shadow of the sword , reflection of the water, past is not forgotten ."

Then, the snake crane wing Chun siu Lin tau description of all the five sections of the siu Lin Tao.

Then, the yik kam wing Chun siu lin tau details practice instruction of the five sections of siu Lin tau which including the physical, breathing, mind, qi , and momentum, force change, and WCK characteristics.


From these we know, in 1850, siu nim/Lin tau is decided into five sections.

[Vajramusti]

It is a new calligraphy of the siu Lin Tao kuit of Both the snake crane WCK and yik kam WCK lineages.

With a new first page saying, "red boat 1850, Shadow of the sword , reflection of the water, past is not forgotten ."

Then, the snake crane wing Chun siu Lin tau description of all the five sections of the siu Lin Tao.

Then, the yik kam wing Chun siu lin tau details practice instruction of the five sections of siu Lin tau which including the physical, breathing, mind, qi , and momentum, force change, and WCK characteristics.


From these we know, in 1850, siu nim/Lin tau is decided into five sections.
---------------------------------------------
Thanks- so they are contemporary representations of what people think 1850 wing chun was about?
Translation of the snake-crane version possible?

[Hendrik]

---------------------------------------------
Thanks- so they are contemporary representations of what people think 1850 wing chun was about?
Translation of the snake-crane version possible?

1.It is as it is preseved within these family since 1850 era , instruction of practice of the inner circle.
with today calligraphy, content as it is kept.

So, it is not what people think. It is like the sutra of the Buddha or dao de Ching of china. it is a record of that era.

It is not about thinking but a record of what, how, why of siu Lin tau practice in 1850.


2. There are lots of work needs to be done. Since it is not a just translate from Chinese to English deal, not just an intellectual deal. The snake crane kuit is a description of the five section of the siu Lin tau practice, one needs to see those characteristics within the practice of the siu Lin tau.

I foresee these kuit will be like the Chinese classical as dao de Ching or sun tzu will be a commentary work accompany with the translation.

For example a direct translation of the term chakra will mean nothing , one needs a sufficient back ground to make sense.

3. We know now one can use the snake crane kuit as big picture on each section, then fill it With more details on physical, breathing, mind, qi, Jin ..ect the five layers details with the yik kam kuen kuit . These will give the modern peoplea very precise big picture and details . And we can further link the details to the white crane of fujian writing and emei 12 zhuang by evidence.
we have come these far.

Those who has bought this issue of new martial hero will be able to read these type of sample.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1210079]1.It is as it is preseved within these family since 1850 era , instruction of practice of the inner circle.
with today calligraphy, content as it is kept.

So, it is not what people think. It is like the sutra of the Buddha or dao de Ching of china. it is a record of that era.

It is not about thinking but a record of what, how, why of siu Lin tau practice in 1850.


2. There are lots of work needs to be done. Since it is not a just translate from Chinese to English deal, not just an intellectual deal. The snake crane kuit is a description of the five section of the siu Lin tau practice, one needs to see those characteristics within the practice of the siu Lin tau.

I foresee these kuit will be like the Chinese classical as dao de Ching or sun tzu will be a commentary work accompany with the translation.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Very unfortunate Hendrik- without more elaboration and a decent translation- it will sound for now like Hendrik says or a HK school says.

[imperialtaichi]

Very unfortunate Hendrik- without more elaboration and a decent translation- it will sound for now like Hendrik says or a HK school says.

In my opinion, since I read Chinese, no offence Hendrik, but these kind of poetry you can find in every second Kung Fu books written in Chinese for about USD$3.00 in China.

Yes, it is a great marketing tool; it sounds funky, and it seems deep. People get sucked in to it because it seems mysterious. But mostly vague descriptions that may or may not have true value.

And even if the poetry holds some really important information, it is totally opened to different interpretations.

Not directing at anyone in particular; but many people having no adequate training (from really capable teachers) and without adequate fighting experiences, are the ones who rely on these texts. Often, their interpretions is nothing more than the pigment of their imagination. These people often appear knowledgeable, because they can always quote original texts to support their argument. But really, they don't know their elbows from their a$$es.

Sure, one can read a few books and give someone useful medical advice; but no way am I going to trust a surgeon who got his degree through Wikipedia. ;)

Kung Fu (and life) is about actions. Not colourful words (or poetry).

Cheers.

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1210079]1.It is as it is preseved within these family since 1850 era , instruction of practice of the inner circle.
with today calligraphy, content as it is kept.

So, it is not what people think. It is like the sutra of the Buddha or dao de Ching of china. it is a record of that era.

It is not about thinking but a record of what, how, why of siu Lin tau practice in 1850.


2. There are lots of work needs to be done. Since it is not a just translate from Chinese to English deal, not just an intellectual deal. The snake crane kuit is a description of the five section of the siu Lin tau practice, one needs to see those characteristics within the practice of the siu Lin tau.

I foresee these kuit will be like the Chinese classical as dao de Ching or sun tzu will be a commentary work accompany with the translation.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Very unfortunate Hendrik- without more elaboration and a decent translation- it will sound for now like Hendrik says or a HK school says.



The original content is now open to the public now, thus, to the minimum the domain of the art of 1850 is clearly draw.


Certainly not Hendrik says or a Hk school say. Anyone who know tcma in the east can investigate on these writing based on the definition of the Chinese martial art classical objectively.

[Hendrik]

In my opinion, since I read Chinese, no offence Hendrik, but these kind of poetry you can find in every second Kung Fu books written in Chinese for about USD$3.00 in China.

Yes, it is a great marketing tool; it sounds funky, and it seems deep. People get sucked in to it because it seems mysterious. But mostly vague descriptions that may or may not have true value.

And even if the poetry holds some really important information, it is totally opened to different interpretations.

Not directing at anyone in particular; but many people having no adequate training (from really capable teachers) and without adequate fighting experiences, are the ones who rely on these texts. Often, their interpretions is nothing more than the pigment of their imagination. These people often appear knowledgeable, because they can always quote original texts to support their argument. But really, they don't know their elbows from their a$$es.

Sure, one can read a few books and give someone useful medical advice; but no way am I going to trust a surgeon who got his degree through Wikipedia. ;)

Kung Fu (and life) is about actions. Not colourful words (or poetry).

Cheers.



John,


Sure, for some one who want to know how to make the siu Lin tau set work, it can worth lots of money, for those who don't care will worth nothing.

You sure can read Chinese but do you know what it is? That is a question.

With these writing, the wcner can have WCK own classical writing.
So, if it is a marketing , it is a WCK marketing, a Chinese act of preserving the teaching of the ancestors. And let world know what is 1850 teaching as it is.



As for personal interpretation, may be John, you can explain why is your wing Chun is using a yang taichi engine instead of the siu Lin tau develop engine which consistence with these two writings? Do you practice siu Lin tau? :)


As for fighting...ect, why go that far? This is the writing of siu Lin tau set 1850, have one developed ones siu Lin tau as describe in the writing, is ones practice within the ball park? Is it consistence with the red boat teaching ? That is the basic question. It is just a simple subject of what is siu Lin tau, what is the content, how is it practice , why is it practice in the 1850 era. In a business sense, what product is one selling, what does the product do? How is the product function. Just that . Certainly, this type of reference point data is good for consumers but the seller don't like it because now they have to explain thier made up if they made things up.

Siu Lin tau Kung fu development is a practice following the instruction and getting result. Too bad the 1850 people are writing in Classical Chinese way. And they are very specific in thier wording . And too bad the modern man has to learn thier way in order to know what they are communicating.

[Hendrik]

for those who is interested

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlFG68IR-9Q

[imperialtaichi]

As for personal interpretation, may be John, you can explain why is your wing Chun is using a yang taichi engine instead of the siu Lin tau develop engine which consistence with these two writings? Do you practice siu Lin tau? :)

Hendrik, may be you can explain why you make such rediculous assumptions? You do not know me. You have not met me. You have not been to any of my classes, workshops nor seminars. You have not been on the receiving end of my power generation methods.

I am being courteous to you as I can. Please do not overstep my politeness. Do NOT assume you know what I do. You do NOT know me. You do NOT know my methods, and you do NOT know IYTC nor KL22. You do not have any authority to write the above quoted statement/lies. This is NOT the first time you do this and I am bringing this to your attention. In the future please do not make public statements about people you don't know.

Hendrik, I am not here to argue with you. I respect your every right to do what you do, and teach what you teach. As I have every right to present my opinion.


BTW:

For those interested, the power "engine" in KL22 comes from Buddha Palm (Chu Tai Bai Fut Sau), Subdue Tiger (Fook Fu) and Twirling Hands (Siu Lim Sau and Dai Lim Sau). We do NOT have the "Siu Lin Tau" form as you mentioned. You have ABSOULTELY NO IDEA about what we do so please do not assume you know.

Oh, I do mix "common sense" and "logic" into my training so I guess my WC is not pure in some people's definition.

[Paddington]

Hendrik, I guess Joy and myself (Joy can confirm either way himself) are asking after the manuscripts or kuits that date from the era that is of concern i.e. 1850 ish.

I'll give you example of what some of us want to see (hope to see).

http://ebookbrowse.com/nei-jing-tu-a-daoist-diagram-of-the-internal-circulation-of-man-1992-pdf-d418329967

In the above paper the author draws upon an engraved stone and other physical bits of evidence that have been dated. We are hoping to see similar bits of evidence form you.

Is it just the case that you are relying on oral history?

[Vajramusti]

Hendrik, I guess Joy and myself (Joy can confirm either way himself) are asking after the manuscripts or kuits that date from the era that is of concern i.e. 1850 ish.

I'll give you example of what some of us want to see (hope to see).

http://ebookbrowse.com/nei-jing-tu-a-daoist-diagram-of-the-internal-circulation-of-man-1992-pdf-d418329967

In the above paper the author draws upon an engraved stone and other physical bits of evidence that have been dated. We are hoping to see similar bits of evidence form you.

Is it just the case that you are relying on oral history?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yup.I am always open to new these and new evidence. But upto now we have 1. untranslated calligraphic copies of what is claimed to be copies of 1850 text. 2. Hendriks statements on behalf of yik kam style 3 the article(s) in Chinese in New Martial hero. These are not enough for a historical thesis.

On 1 and 3- without a good translation- I am out of the loop. On 2-I have tried to follow some of Hendrik's videos. Some of it is not new. Some of the principles are already well known in some Ip Man lineages.

A couple of other problems that I have are 1. When I googled and found videos of school of the author of the snake.crane style article in New Martial Hero I was not impressed with the martial quality of the movements shown.

Further, apart from Hendrik's advocacy-oyer Yik Kam videos were not impressive-including Wang Kiew Kit and other Yik Kam folks have mixed in Hung Gar and CLF-not much of an unbroken chain there.

Of course some of Hendrik's argument on integration of body.mind. breath/energy are already existing and legitimate critiques of much of contemporary wing chun

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, I guess Joy and myself (Joy can confirm either way himself) are asking after the manuscripts or kuits that date from the era that is of concern i.e. 1850 ish.

I'll give you example of what some of us want to see (hope to see).

http://ebookbrowse.com/nei-jing-tu-a-daoist-diagram-of-the-internal-circulation-of-man-1992-pdf-d418329967

In the above paper the author draws upon an engraved stone and other physical bits of evidence that have been dated. We are hoping to see similar bits of evidence form you.

Is it just the case that you are relying on oral history?


Understood.

You want to see as the following piece, a scan of the cover page of the 1890 note from the Snake Crane Wing Chun lineage. on the side of the photo of gentle men who make the note.

However, for the mean time,
lots of these stuffs are not open for public. Snake Crane Wing Chun lineage open the Siu Nim Tau Ko Kuit above to the public. but not everything from this note, such as only section one of the Yik Kam Siu lin tao kuit is open to the public not everything either. I am glad and appreciate people open up this much today and not asking them for more. it is their generosity , they have no reason to share these with the public because it is thier property.




2, with the date of this cover page, from the Nim Tao Ko of the snake crane wing chun lineage related to the note above; we know, even though the Yik Kam and Snake Crane lineage are independent and has no relationship, the two writing were from a very different angle describing Siu Lin Tau of 1850 era, or Pre 1890 , however they are poinitng to the same direction.


3, as for this moment, with the above cover page, if we speak only via solid evidence which can be subject to carbon test, we know Pre 1890 WCK very clearly via this note. since the writer of the note has to learn from his sifu, a red boat opera actor ( same with Yik Kam a red boat opera actor) which has to learn the art earlier then 1890, and we know from this history of china, the cantonese opera was ban after 1855 where the red boat wing chun group split into many different lineages from then. we now have many data points can be tracked and compared.


4, sure I dont have time machine to bring everyone back to 1850, and also i am no god to know everything, or perfect to be all correct. however, what is very likely to happen , IMHO, has surfaced via different red boat wck lineages via multiple data points, and i hope more still to come.


5, these stuffs sure is important. however, for me, the even more important is how to turn on the engine of the Siu Lin Tau. and the proper key will turn it on. that is the focus. there is no point of doing carbon test in the lab.... if one still cannot stand a YJKYM properly but causing knees and back pain even with the 1850 teaching.

6, Of cause you don't have to accept these two red boat era siu Lin tau writings.

[Hendrik]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yup.I am always open to new these and new evidence. But upto now we have 1. untranslated calligraphic copies of what is claimed to be copies of 1850 text. 2. Hendriks statements on behalf of yik kam style 3 the article(s) in Chinese in New Martial hero. These are not enough for a historical thesis.

On 1 and 3- without a good translation- I am out of the loop. On 2-I have tried to follow some of Hendrik's videos. Some of it is not new. Some of the principles are already well known in some Ip Man lineages.

A couple of other problems that I have are 1. When I googled and found videos of school of the author of the snake.crane style article in New Martial Hero I was not impressed with the martial quality of the movements shown.

Further, apart from Hendrik's advocacy-oyer Yik Kam videos were not impressive-including Wang Kiew Kit and other Yik Kam folks have mixed in Hung Gar and CLF-not much of an unbroken chain there.

Of course some of Hendrik's argument on integration of body.mind. breath/energy are already existing and legitimate critiques of much of contemporary wing chun




Joy,

great view!

Let focus on the kuits, not Hendrik.
The two kuits are post here, what it is , it is as it is. Will it turn on the siu Lin tau engine? Those who try it will know. I let the technology speak for themself.

Since you like to use Gm Ipman as a reference, the above cover page of snake crane wing Chun note is predates the birth day of Gm Ipman, 1893. Thus, we know what WCK is like pre Gm Ipman was born.

[Vajramusti]

Joy,

great view!

Let focus on the kuits, not Hendrik.
The two kuits are post here, what it is , it is as it is. Will it turn on the siu Lin tau engine? Those who try it will know. I let the technology speak for themself.

Since you like to use Gm Ipman as a reference, the above cover page of snake crane wing Chun note is predates the birth day of Gm Ipman, 1893. Thus, we know what WCK is like pre Gm Ipman was born.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik-I do not focus on you, but on the content of your post(s).

Of course there was wing chun before Ip man but it is not yet clearly shown in your posts
what it was.

Both Leung Jan and Ip man appear to have brought disparate aspects of wing chun together.

They get separated often enough among their students.

The kuits need translation. Even then , kuits generally need expert interpretation- so that they are not just memorized "mantras".

[Hendrik]

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik-I do not focus on you, but on the content of your post(s).

Of course there was wing chun before Ip man but it is not yet clearly shown in your posts
what it was.

Both Leung Jan and Ip man appear to have brought disparate aspects of wing chun together.

They get separated often enough among their students.

The kuits need translation. Even then , kuits generally need expert interpretation- so that they are not just memorized "mantras".


Joy,

I totally agree with you, kuit needs translation. For me, kuit needs much more then translation, as I have mentioned in this thread, lots of work needs to be done. As in my YouTube belief introduction of what it is for. Certainly it is not a piece of potrait or antic, also not a new age energy religious fad, but well define details and details of practice the siu Lin tau.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlFG68IR-9Q





Kuit is a teaching which is verify able across lineage's of WCK, history of china, Chinese martial art DNA.

Kuit is not a piece of potrait of Van Goh starry starry night.

The two siu Lin tau kuen kuit shared here are the teaching of WCK 1850.

To the minimum by the van goh starry starry night potrait standard is Pre WCK 1890 as one can see by evidence of that potrait of snake crane wing Chun lineage note book.






Since many of you like to ask for the original writing , that piece of orginal black and white paper......., then,

I would ask you for have you or even Gm Ipman saw that piece of original writing of WCK kuit saying " come accept, goes return, let go and rush forward"?

If yes, show me, if not then how can you prove that is WCK teaching or kuit? Are you sure you learn WCK? Are you sure your sifu and you sigung and sijo is honest ? Can they show the original piece of WCK writing ? Have you asked that in your own school?





Btw, you have made comment of snake crane wing Chun lineage set practice you have seen and how they are not up to your standard, or just a HK school say, however, Evidentally, they have 1890 note book on WCK as evidence beyond many modern lineages. It is not a HK school say but a pre 1890 say, by evidence.

I don't know it all, and I also find every WCK lineages has strong point to offer, including the Ipman lineage. And I think this is a great era of every one can learn from everyone, instead of put any lineage as the ultimate to judge, I believe more lineages are going to come out and share.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, may be you can explain why you make such rediculous assumptions? You do not know me. You have not met me. You have not been to any of my classes, workshops nor seminars. You have not been on the receiving end of my power generation methods.

I am being courteous to you as I can. Please do not overstep my politeness. Do NOT assume you know what I do. You do NOT know me. You do NOT know my methods, and you do NOT know IYTC nor KL22. You do not have any authority to write the above quoted statement/lies. This is NOT the first time you do this and I am bringing this to your attention. In the future please do not make public statements about people you don't know.

Hendrik, I am not here to argue with you. I respect your every right to do what you do, and teach what you teach. As I have every right to present my opinion.


BTW:

For those interested, the power "engine" in KL22 comes from Buddha Palm (Chu Tai Bai Fut Sau), Subdue Tiger (Fook Fu) and Twirling Hands (Siu Lim Sau and Dai Lim Sau). We do NOT have the "Siu Lin Tau" form as you mentioned. You have ABSOULTELY NO IDEA about what we do so please do not assume you know.

Oh, I do mix "common sense" and "logic" into my training so I guess my WC is not pure in some people's definition.


John,

Why are you discussing these http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1210102&postcount=8
Here

while this thread is on 1850 siu Lun tau wall paper sharing which Atleast 1890 carbon test ready investigation in the first place. Since you post I am just responding to your view.

You are free to have your opinion, I have mine too.


As for your yang engine, your YouTubes certainly doesn't seem to accord with siu Lin tau snake engine such as describe by the pre 1890 kuit but yang taichi. I sure can be wrong so please enlighten me . What shown in this utube is yang taiji long push jin via yang taiji engine for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zRDW_7EzMA



I certainly absolutely has no idea of your art, same with you don't have idea of what mine is. Hahaha

These above are just my opinion, you sure don't have to take it serious.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1210260]Joy,

I totally agree with you, kuit needs translation. For me, kuit needs much more then translation, as I have mentioned in this thread, lots of work needs to be done.
-----------------------------------------------------------
-The rest of thee post is full of indirection and much fuzzy logic.
No point on me going any further.

[imperialtaichi]

Hendrik, your assumption that only WC with your YK "Snake Engine" is WC, is laughable. You have no idea how big the WC world is. You promote yourself as objective, peaceful, buddhist; your actions are nothing but. Your tunnel vision and ego makes you blind.

Arguing with you just brings me down to your level. Pointless talking to a brick wall.

Your path, your way, you have every right to it.

Have a good day.

[Robinhood]

John,

Why are you discussing these http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1210102&postcount=8
Here

while this thread is on 1850 siu Lun tau wall paper sharing which Atleast 1890 carbon test ready investigation in the first place. Since you post I am just responding to your view.

You are free to have your opinion, I have mine too.


As for your yang engine, your YouTubes certainly doesn't seem to accord with siu Lin tau snake engine such as describe by the pre 1890 kuit but yang taichi. I sure can be wrong so please enlighten me . What shown in this utube is yang taiji long push jin via yang taiji engine for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zRDW_7EzMA



I certainly absolutely has no idea of your art, same with you don't have idea of what mine is. Hahaha

These above are just my opinion, you sure don't have to take it serious.

I would not call John's engine Yang TaiChi engine based on video, it is more along the lines of traditional WC engine of the last generation of most WCer's .

Yang Tai Chi is very big energy fields and large structure projection.

Henrick , maybe a video like John's will clear up why your engine is different.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, your assumption that only WC with your YK "Snake Engine" is WC, is laughable. You have no idea how big the WC world is. You promote yourself as objective, peaceful, buddhist; your actions are nothing but. Your tunnel vision and ego makes you blind.

Arguing with you just brings me down to your level. Pointless talking to a brick wall.

Your path, your way, you have every right to it.

Have a good day.


John,

Hahaha, I sure don't know much. And my level is low. I am just a follower.

I am just using siu Lin tau the basic of all red boat era wing Chun kuen as a reference.
The engine develop by siu Lin tau is the standard. That is the snake engine, it is not exclusive to me, For example, you will not see GM Ipman , Gm YKS, or Gm Fung Chun of kulo using a yang taiji engine like you.


I speak with evidence. Anyone can take a look with the above three gms utube or photos. See, if they do the same type of yang engine where one uses forward stance and back leg to push. Ask the questions, do WCK using the forward arrow and bow stance like in taiji or southern fist?

The world of WCK is certainly big, however, when one doesn't develop ones body as in the soul in siu lin tau basic set then I really don't understand .

[Hendrik]

I would not call John's engine Yang TaiChi engine based on video, it is more along the lines of traditional WC engine of the last generation of most WCer's .

Yang Tai Chi is very big energy fields and large structure projection.

Henrick , maybe a video like John's will clear up why your engine is different.



Siu Lin tau engine is snake engine, snake engine can varies in different lineages but still is within the range, so, it doesnt have to be mine as a reference. Mine engine has clearly shown with the three type of Jin in my utube for those who is interest.

So, just take a look at this variantion snake engine from Gary here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sFblUacRZw
Compare with John's . How is Gary stand? Forward stance? How is Gary generate power? Forward stance and back leg push? Or not?


It is a very simple thing, just ask the question, in which set of the WCK basic set has one develop John s type of forward stance pushing power? Is it in siu Lin tau? Cham kui? If not where is John s engine from. Is it the WCK snake engine develop by those sets?

As for yang tai ji, in John utubes he is using Jin yuan, ...yang taiji terminology and handing also body structure, it is in his utubes. I just describe it as he shows .

[Robinhood]

Siu Lin tau engine is snake engine, snake engine can varies in different lineages but still is within the range, so, it doesnt have to be mine as a reference. Mine engine has clearly shown with the three type of Jin in my utube for those who is interest.

So, just take a look at this variantion snake engine from Gary here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sFblUacRZw
Compare with John's . How is Gary stand? Forward stance? How is Gary generate power? Forward stance and back leg push? Or not?


It is a very simple thing, just ask the question, in which set of the WCK basic set has one develop John s type of forward stance pushing power? Is it in siu Lin tau? Cham kui? If not where is John s engine from. Is it the WCK snake engine develop by those sets?

As for yang tai ji, in John utubes he is using Jin yuan, ...yang taiji terminology and handing also body structure, it is in his utubes. I just describe it as he shows .


I don't see much engine at all from that video, definitely not Yang Tai Chi engine, just normal external engine if any. If running is considered an engine, then maybe that one would fit.


Pushing power looks a little different, but size is also different, I am sure John could do same kind of push.

[Hendrik]

I don't see much engine at all from that video, definitely not Yang Tai Chi engine, just normal external engine if any. If running is considered an engine, then maybe that one would fit.


Pushing power looks a little different, but size is also different, I am sure John could do same kind of push.

I understand your view.

Take a look at 1.33. 1.39 of the clip here. IMO These type often see in yang taiji push hand practice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zRDW_7EzMA

[Robinhood]

I understand your view.

Take a look at 1.33. 1.39 of the clip here. IMO These type often see in yang taiji push hand practice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zRDW_7EzMA

The concept is right , he just needs to execute it more internally, does not need as much movement. But for camera sometimes movement needs to be excessive to illustrate internal intention and projection.


It all depends on how good your springs are, to borrow energy.

[Hendrik]

The concept is right , he just needs to execute it more internally, does not need as much movement. But for camera sometimes movement needs to be excessive to illustrate internal intention and projection.


It all depends on how good your springs are, to borrow energy.


Great point.

On the engine topic, I am not saying I am the standard, I am saying all WCK develop its engine via siu Lin tau then chum kil sets. One call it a snake engine or body or coil spring...ect It is free word. There might be variation which is perectly natural. However, it is still within the boundary of the WCK sets.

[Vajramusti]

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200404331857241&set=vb.165747543494748&type=3&theater


????????quo vadis??

[Hendrik]

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200404331857241&set=vb.165747543494748&type=3&theater


????????quo vadis??

Joy,

What is your point?

[Robinhood]

Great point.

On the engine topic, I am not saying I am the standard, I am saying all WCK develop its engine via siu Lin tau then chum kil sets. One call it a snake engine or body or coil spring...ect It is free word. There might be variation which is perectly natural. However, it is still within the boundary of the WCK sets.


Ya, I would not call it a different engine, only another way to train body mind. It is best to develop full body potential then choose how you want to use it .

Everyone has same parts, just choose to apply differently depending on personality , size, speed, age etc.

I think most styles at one time developed full potential , but it is easier and quicker to develop external characteristics first , not different engine per say, but how much engine is developed to full efficiency

.Everyone is climbing same mountain from different sides, when people get to top everyone will have same view.

[Hendrik]

Ya, I would not call it a different engine, only another way to train body mind. It is best to develop full body potential then choose how you want to use it .

Everyone has same parts, just choose to apply differently depending on personality , size, speed, age etc.

I think most styles at one time developed full potential , but it is easier and quicker to develop external characteristics first , not different engine per say, but how much engine is developed to full efficiency

.Everyone is climbing same mountain from different sides, when people get to top everyone will have same view.


Well said!

[Vajramusti]

Joy,

What is your point?
--------------------------------------------
a little boy on a tricycle can run over any of those guys!!

My point is- I doubt that the 1850 wing chun is very well represented in what I saw.

[Ali. R]

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200404331857241&set=vb.165747543494748&type=3&theater

????????quo vadis??

You Right, that was hard to follow, he made the wrong turn somewhere.

[Hendrik]

Here we go.


Post 1855 , after the single set being redesign into a three set system. Snt is organized into five sections. And it is kept that way until today for Wck lineages from the red boat.


The following two sets of kuen kuit are preserved by both the snake crane Wck and yik kam lineage.

The snake crane lineage kuit is a post 1855 snt kuit.

The yik kam kuit is a pre 1855 kuit which describe the first part of the long set slt which later rename as post 1855 snt set.

The yik kam kuit has more details in the six core elements , body, mind, breathing, Qi, force change, and momentum. While the snake crane kuit present the content of the five sections of the snt. Thus, when these two kuit combine, we can see clearly the content of the 1850 red boat era snt practice.


Here on there is a reference on snt. This is the beginning, more polished translation and details comments will surface and discuss....etc since everyone from different lineages now can study and present their view .

Note: The coding of S# , Ypre#, and Y# is for convenient reference and discussion code. So when one practice snt one can refer to the section and the kuit comes with it.
Ie one can ask or discuss what is Ypre 5 or Y16 or S6 means


蛇鶴詠春小念頭歌訣 : 念頭歌
Snake Crane Wing Chun lineage Siu Nim Tau set writing: the Lin Tau song.

S1白鶴戲水蛇歸洞
White crane plays around with water, and the snake returns the hole.
S2飛麟九轉表掌通
Flying snake rotates the head in nine ways to represent the palm techniques
S3蛇鶴爭揮堵勁融
Snake and crane show off their best techniques and strength.
S4鶴足三提翼四功
Crane feet step three times and the crane's wing flips in four ways.
S5白鶴摺翼登天際
White crane folds the wings and flies to the sky.
S6蛇鶴能制逆宗童
Snake Crane Wing Chun is able to overcome the traitor (MaNinYee馬寧兒) of the Southern Shaolin








易金詠春：小練頭歌訣第一段
Yik Kam Wing Chun , Siu Lin Tau long set Writing Part 1



Practice guide line:

Ypre:

Y Pre 1 眼要對手。
Eyes Must Track Hands.

Y Pre 2 手要對心。
Hands Must Track Heart.

Y Pre 3 手從心發。
Hand From Heart Out.

Commentary – This means the Hand issues from the heart. The modern saying is “Kuen Yau Sum Faat” (Fist comes from the heart). This mean the hand comes out from the center physically and issue from mind.

Y Pre 4 一絲不苟。
One Thread does not off.

Y Pre 5 一伸一縮。
One Stretch, One Shrinks.

Commentary – Every stretching and contraction , or In every stretching, there is contraction…

Y Pre 6 柔中帶剛。
Within the soft there is hardness.

Y Pre 7 剛中而柔。
Within Hardness is Softness.

the above expresses, for example, when the arm is fully extended, it becomes "hard"; and while the arm is contracting loosely, it is" soft".


Y Pre 8 則是靜如平波, 動如翻江。
while the movement is slow it is analogous to a calm smooth wave
While the movement is large, it is analogous to a huge violent wave i.e. a Tsunami



Body of the kuit:

Y1聚意會神平肩檔。
Focus the intention, union with the awareness ,while standing the equal shoulder stance
Y2兩手前起分陰陽
Two Hands Front Raise Divide into Yin and Yang.
Y3左腿跘出有善惡。
The trip out of Left leg has positive and negative effects.
Y4右跟屈勁緊反藏
The bending power of the right heel tightly store in the reverse direction.
Y5會合丹田督脈降。
Union in the Dan tian , Du medirian sink.
Y6手臂鞭出橫力勁
The arm whip out the horizontal power
Y7神寄指爪䄂底旁。
Pay attention to the finger, craw , and the side under the sleeve .
Y8旋迥自然順脈氣
Spiral twisting naturally , follow the breathing and the direction of the qi.
Y9掌背向外神意足。
Back of Palm Faces Outward , Intention is Full.
Y10翻掌抽纏對心防
Rotating palm reeling guarding the heart.
Y11單橫相撐合氣運。
Single horizontal and double press handling accord to breathing.
Y12相抱沉身力橫分
Embracing and sinking, splits the force horizontally.
Y13前虛急用擒伏法。
Forward Empty Urgently Use Seize Subdue methods.
Y14下叉飛雙插翼忙
Lower intersection, flying double , Hurry piercing wings
Y15合實雙掌穿心貫。
Joining the two palms drive through the heart
Y16下沉關元背攻上
Sinking down to Guan Yuan area Back of the palm Attacks Upwards.
Y17一任自然脈安祥。
Following natural spontaneously the qi will flow in a peaceful and balance way.
Y18企掌屈肘單昭陽
Erect palm bent elbow single zhao yang
Y19上下飛花勁脈暢。
Upper and Lower Flying Flower Power Channels Smooth.
Y20呑吐如虹發力罡
Swallowing and spitting are like a smooth rainbow issuing force .
Y21下結關元參佛手。
Lower knot at guan yuan area (then turn into ) searching Buddha hands.
Y22一任自然氣脈長
Following natural spontaneously the breathing, zhen qi and it flow will grow (strong)






Combine both

S1白鶴戲水蛇歸洞
White crane plays around with water, and the snake returns the hole.

Y1聚意會神平肩檔。
Focus the intention, union with the awareness ,while standing the equal shoulder stance
Y2兩手前起分陰陽
Two Hands Front Raise Divide into Yin and Yang.
Y3左腿跘出有善惡。
The trip out of Left leg has positive and negative effects.
Y4右跟屈勁緊反藏
The bending power of the right heel tightly store in the reverse direction.
Y5會合丹田督脈降。
Union in the Dan tian , Du medirian sink.



S2飛麟九轉表掌通
Flying snake rotates the head in nine ways to represent the palm techniques

Y6手臂鞭出橫力勁
The arm whip out the horizontal power
Y7神寄指爪䄂底旁。
Pay attention to the finger, craw , and the side under the sleeve .
Y8旋迥自然順脈氣
Spiral twisting naturally , follow the breathing and the direction of the qi.



S3蛇鶴爭揮堵勁融
Snake and crane show off their best techniques and strength.

Y9掌背向外神意足。
Back of Palm Faces Outward , Intention is Full.
Y10翻掌抽纏對心防
Rotating palm reeling guarding the heart.




S4鶴足三提翼四功
Crane feet step three times and the crane's wing flips in four ways.

Y11單橫相撐合氣運。
Single horizontal and double press handling accord to breathing.
Y12相抱沉身力橫分
Embracing and sinking, splits the force horizontally.
Y13前虛急用擒伏法。
Forward Empty Urgently Use Seize Subdue methods.
Y14下叉飛雙插翼忙
Lower intersection, flying double , Hurry piercing wings
Y15合實雙掌穿心貫。
Joining the two palms drive through the heart
Y16下沉關元背攻上
Sinking down to Guan Yuan area Back of the palm Attacks Upwards.
Y17一任自然脈安祥。
Following natural spontaneously the qi will flow in a peaceful and balance way.



S5白鶴摺翼登天際
White crane folds the wings and flies to the sky.

Y18企掌屈肘單昭陽
Erect palm bent elbow single zhao yang
Y19上下飛花勁脈暢。
Upper and Lower Flying Flower Power Channels Smooth.
Y20呑吐如虹發力罡
Swallowing and spitting are like a smooth rainbow issuing force .
Y21下結關元參佛手。
Lower knot at guan yuan area (then turn into ) searching Buddha hands.
Y22一任自然氣脈長
Following natural spontaneously the breathing, zhen qi and it flow will grow (strong)

[Paddington]

Thank you for the translation.

How many people have put this translation together? If it was a group effort, which terms to be translated came up as contested by your group? With these contested terms, which precedents did you use to justify using one translation over another?

With regards to the source materials that have been translated, have these actually been dated yet?

[Hendrik]

As I have told you before, sifu Wayne deal with Hong Kong culture dept on those paper works and buerocrtic stuffs. Which is a separate issue with my focus on releasing translation here.


I have started to give free private coaching for wcners who likes to learn on ancient snt and what release here is a part of material covered.



IMHO


1. Kuen kuit is something one needs to attain in the set training.
When the kuit says Qi flow one needs to know what it is how to handle it in the practice.


So, I am in the mean time concern only to get as many people to have basic attain of the state then just translate the language.

Since it is not about language or understanding but enter into the state and handle it. To attain the kungfu. Otherwise, the kungfu is lost.
The focus is on what it is , where is the root of the writimg comes from, and how to attain what is described. Only then one can tell what it is. It is not a literature translation.





Ie. when it says

Y1 Focus the intention, union with the awareness ,while standing the equal shoulder stance


One needs to be able to know it is a coherence state, to enter the coherence state in the equal shoulder stance. Otherwise it is useless but empty saying. Since kuit kuit is not an intelligent thinking but description of attainment.

If the group doesn't know Y1 is coherence state. No matter how good the translation, it is useless. And to know it is the coherence state one needs to attain the state according to the kuen kuit, and the root writing or DNA of Chinese internal art, and match the experience with western biofeedback coherence state. Otherwise no one will know what it is even with best translation .

In addition, one needs to know the equal shoulder stance term is from emei 12 zhuang ancient writing. And get the details from emei to verify the proper practice of the equal shoulder stances or yjkym and verify it with older Wck lineages such as snake crane, yks, kulo, ....etc.






2. I am not concern on date....etc. Chinese kuen kuit is not about date , but core in how accurate it can turn on the engine and handling.

The group has attain the following:

1. we now know the exact dna or root of these writings.
2. These two writing echo, support each others , and describe the snt movements disregard of they have been isolated for 160 years.
3. Instructions of These writings can actually lead one to turn on the engine of snt. Disregards of lineages. Also ,From the snake crane and yik kam lineage, we get results for generations. It is a proven function kuit.





3. Translation and dating....etc type of work can come and progress as a moving progress. The writing is released to the west to open up and let wcners who is interested to know these things exist and trigge practice and investigation...etc. same with the taiji classical writing, now Wck has its writing. Same with taiji classical writing the focus is in the art attainment guide and experience. If anyone like to write a book out of it or further investigate as an archeology that is great. But that is nice to have not my primary focus.

In the mean time, to get wcner to be able to start and gain experience in developing their kungfu is my main concern. Only then translation or better translation has meaning.














Thank you for the translation.

How many people have put this translation together? If it was a group effort, which terms to be translated came up as contested by your group? With these contested terms, which precedents did you use to justify using one translation over another?

With regards to the source materials that have been translated, have these actually been dated yet?

[Hendrik]

From the following,



Y Pre 1 眼要對手。
Eyes Must Track Hands.

Y Pre 2 手要對心。
Hands Must Track Heart.

Y Pre 3 手從心發。
Hand From Heart Out.



We know “Kuen Yau Sum Faat” (Fist comes from the heart). Is only Ypre 3. One needs Yp1 and Yp2 to know the full process.

With Ypre 1,2,3
We know it is a mind body act. Where mind command body move , eyes or sensory serve as feedback, and hand started location is at heart area.

[guy b.]

Interesting and concise. Thank you for your efforts

[Hendrik]

You are welcome.

I am just doing my wcner duty.
This is just a begining.
Just hope more wcners across lineages will join in. I don't know it all and not able to do all.




Interesting and concise. Thank you for your efforts

[Hendrik]

Just for fun it. Let see what is it in brief.




Take the following :



S1白鶴戲水蛇歸洞
White crane plays around with water, and the snake returns the hole.

Y1聚意會神平肩檔。
Focus the intention, union with the awareness ,while standing the equal shoulder stance
Y2兩手前起分陰陽
Two Hands Front Raise Divide into Yin and Yang.
Y3左腿跘出有善惡。
The trip out of Left leg has positive and negative effects.
Y4右跟屈勁緊反藏
The bending power of the right heel tightly store in the reverse direction.
Y5會合丹田督脈降。
Union in the Dan tian , Du medirian sink.





This kuit is describing the yjkym section which is the beginning of the snt


S1白鶴戲水蛇歸洞
White crane plays around with water, and the snake returns the hole.

Crane plays around water snake returns to hole is describing return to the natural state. Water is breathing blood and Qi, hole is the silence of mind.




Y1聚意會神平肩檔。
Focus the intention, union with the awareness ,while standing the equal shoulder stance


This describe entering into coherence state with equal shoulder Stance platform.
This describe the art is based on a standing post or zhan zhuang. It is a zhuang Kung or standing post Kung fu. So one needs to attain the state to start.

Equal shoulder stance is the platform of emei 12 zhuang. Where the stance is in equal shoulder wide,mbody weight is place in the yang side of the feet, this Is the way how to get into the natural optimal strcuture. Placing the weight in the yang side and let the body settle itself with effortless is what is mean by clamping the yang. Or yjky of yjkym.

The easy way to know and get into coherence state is get an emwave biofeedback machine.



Y2兩手前起分陰陽
Two Hands Front Raise Divide into Yin and Yang.


This is raising the both arm aware of the yang and yin side , medirians, breathing, ...etc on top of the structure platform.

You need Chinese medicine medirians chart to learn this part .




Y3左腿跘出有善惡。
The trip out of Left leg has positive and negative effects.

Y4右跟屈勁緊反藏
The bending power of the right heel tightly store in the reverse direction.


This is the huen ma and how to handle the momentum and force changes or ground force or action reaction force couple.



Y5會合丹田督脈降。
Union in the Dan tian , Du medirian sink.

This is when the stance or zhuang completed. It has to have the quality of lower abs breathing, Qi sink and grow in Dan Dian, spine loose up, the qi take the circulation path of rising with du and sink with ren medirian.

Can this be attained today? Yes.
To the minimum, one can grow Qi in Dan Dian and loose up or open up the spine.
The body at this state feel like a feather or levitating or expanding like a weightless ball or totally disappear.

One important point to make here is , any stiffness or clamping or holding of knees or lower part of the body will not attain this state but lock one out of this state because it is going a wrong direction.

The case of the lower part of body must be loosed in Wck practice can be verify with older wck lineages practice, in Guangzhou Wck or kulo.

I have seen late Gm Fung chun the grand student of dr, Leung jan in video clip describing one must has loose lower part of body since Wck is not shaolin art of big horse wide stance. I am actually trying to pursue the person show me the clip to release it to YouTube for general public.

I have also seen Guangzhou lineage elderly speak on how the hip and stance has to be loose because Wck is a female art.

I have also known the snake crane lineage practice is based on loose lower part of the body.


So how loose is loose? As loose as the lower part of the body rest while laying on bed and the feet stand in quick sand.




Thus, these above is not a nice word or philosophy or thinking or ideas. It is the description of what snt it in the open of yjkym section. Follow it one will get it. Not follow it, one will do other things.

I am not Miu soon the creator of Wck. But what I describe above can be attained. That is a fact. This alone makes it real internal even with the northern internal art such as taiji Xiang yi definition.

[Hendrik]

Continuous after the opening if yjkym section.

The following two sections are the soul of Wck.



S2飛麟九轉表掌通
Flying snake rotates the head in nine ways to represent the palm techniques

Y6手臂鞭出橫力勁
The arm whip out the horizontal power
Y7神寄指爪䄂底旁。
Pay attention to the finger, craw , and the side under the sleeve .
Y8旋迥自然順脈氣
Spiral twisting naturally , follow the breathing and the direction of the qi.






S2飛麟九轉表掌通
Flying snake rotates the head in nine ways to represent the palm techniques


This is the description of the so called snake reeling section. This section is the sup Jee sau section before the one tan three fook or some called it Sam bai fut section.


In all older Wck lineages such as yks, chan wah soon, snake cane, yik kam, they all preserve this section even though might have some variation. The Ipman lineage simplified this section to become a huen sau. But kept this snake reel section in Ipman lineage biu Jee set. Due to the simplification of this section, this become a signature of Ipman lineage off spring. It is ironic that no other older Wck lineages related to dr. Leung jan or direct red boat connection has this Ipman signature.


The DNA of this section could be solidly traced to emei 12 zhuang snake slide worm move technic.. This is where the Wck snake body development started. Even thought Wck has two mother arts, Wck is not using the white crane of fujian shake and bounce technics to develop the engine but using the snake slide worm move technic.


As the description says
"Flying snake rotates the head in nine ways to represent the palm techniques"

It tells one clearly it is a snake body with very agile and adaptive multiple snake like joints handling.



Y6手臂鞭出橫力勁
The arm whip out the horizontal power

This further describe the arm joints handling as a whip. To further describe the details in this section.



Y7神寄指爪䄂底旁。
Pay attention to the finger, craw , and the side under the sleeve .

This describe the handling on the mind body. Finger sync with intention attention and full awareness of even the little joints is important. As we know, the handling of bigger joints is called snake slide and the handling of the smaller joints as the finger joints is called worm move. That is the signature of the emei 12 zhuang snake slide worm move technics. In fact, this Y7 line can be trace directly to emei 12 zhuang classical writing.

And finally, the under the sleeve mention here is the emei unique Jin call the under the sleeve Jin. So where is that use in Wck? The sun punch handling. This is also an evidence of Wck is using emei Jin type instead of white crane of fujian inch Jin joints power. Under sleeve Jin is a type of inch Jin.



Y8旋迥自然順脈氣
Spiral twisting naturally , follow the breathing and the direction of the qi.


This is advance level of handling where it goes deeper the joints and sinews , where the movement synchronizes into breathing and Qi flow in different medirians.









S3蛇鶴爭揮堵勁融
Snake and crane show off their best techniques and strength.

Y9掌背向外神意足。
Back of Palm Faces Outward , Intention is Full.
Y10翻掌抽纏對心防
Rotating palm reeling guarding the heart.




S3蛇鶴爭揮堵勁融
Snake and crane show off their best techniques and strength.


This is the crane withstand section or the one tan three fook section or some called it the Sam bai fut section.

As it describe above, this section is using for develop the Jin path and Jin flow to attain Jin or strength or force change.

This section is developing using the seven bows to form force path and transport force flow up and down to ground. Where the snake reel section open up all joints to prepare for the development of this section. One must open up or make it alive or activate or aware of the joints before using it.




Y9掌背向外神意足。
Back of Palm Faces Outward , Intention is Full.

This describe the fook sau. On top of the elements of the previous kuit.

This describe the involve of intention as an elements while in developing the Jin.

Some in Wck today has used the term nim Lik to refer to the Jin develop in Wck. As we know from these kuit, it is more the just nim or intention, the Jin of snt is actually support by many elements describe in this kuit. It is not just nim or intention. It involve the six core elements : body, mind, breathing, Qi flow , force changes, momentum.



Y10翻掌抽纏對心防
Rotating palm reeling guarding the heart.


This describe the Wu sau.

[Hendrik]

You are welcome.

There are a few millions wcners, they deserve to know the root. We now go beyond past 100 years to the era of dr. Leung jan and to era before dr. Leung jan.

It is not a political campaign or buerocratic paper works, it is what it is and how it works.

These things exit , it is a technology. Wck is lucky that we still preserve these.


My favorite song on Wck root searching


If the sky opened up for me,
And the mountain disappeared,
If the seas ran dry, turned to dust
And the sun refused to rise
I would still find my way,
By the light I see in your eyes
The world I know fades away
But you stay



http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lkM5KUCAlbw&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DlkM5KUCAlbw


Excellent scholarship, Hendrick. I always learn much from you. Thank you for posting this.
SKM

[Hendrik]

With the brief commentary on the

Yjkym section,
Snake reel section,
The crane withstand section,

We can see the what is and how is Snt or the core of Wck in 1850. That is what Chinese martial art expert like Gm Lee Gong one of the top scholar look into when the want to look at the DNA of a tcma style.

We in wck actually has preserved a good solid data for us to see what is going on. There is no mystery everything can be check and balance . It is just 160 years ago. It is only as old as massachusetts institute of technology.

[Hendrik]

The following is a very good article from white crane of fujian which will help one to understand the snt neigong as record in the above snt kuen kuit.

Ie
One can know what does it mean by guan yuan in the y16. ....etc

http://www.ycbhq.com/quanshiquanli/2010-02-06/26.html

[PalmStriker]

That is not what I pick up on from this phrase. Your interpretation, to me, is overly symbolic. Symbolism does not = martial efficiency. Your assessment reminds me of other loose interpretations of SLT content I've heard. :) S1白鶴戲水蛇歸洞
White crane plays around with water, and the snake returns to it's hole.

Crane plays around water snake returns to hole is describing return to the natural state. Water is breathing blood and Qi, hole is the silence of mind.

[Hendrik]

This is just a beginning. Always has to start some where and keep refine. Anyone can work on a better version and share.


If you don't like the direct S1 translation, you always can use Y1 to Y5 or the following commentary to find out more on the details.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1242889&postcount=7





That is not what I pick up on from this phrase. Your interpretation, to me, is overly symbolic. Symbolism does not = martial efficiency. Your assessment reminds me of other loose interpretations of SLT content I've heard. :) S1白鶴戲水蛇歸洞
White crane plays around with water, and the snake returns to it's hole.

Crane plays around water snake returns to hole is describing return to the natural state. Water is breathing blood and Qi, hole is the silence of mind.

[PalmStriker]

This is just a beginning. Always has to start some where and keep refine. Anyone can work on a better version and share.


If you don't like the direct S1 translation, you always can use Y1 to Y5 or the following commentary to find out more on the details.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1242889&postcount=7
I'm speaking of your added interpretation, not the transliteration of the document. But pay me no mind, carry on.

[Hendrik]

In this beining state, I careless on the perfect interpretion, but intending to get the information transfer to the west as details and as fast as possible.

As i said above, If you dont like my translation. there are Y1 to Y5 and details commentary For further reference and verification.


How will you do it?
Share with us your view.




I'm speaking of your added interpretation, not the transliteration of the document. But pay me no mind, carry on.

[PalmStriker]

Indian Mudra Dancing is full of hand gesture content that represents symbolic meaning in communicating with an audience, but that is part of storytelling entertainment. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ0H12EB65E

[Hendrik]

If you don't like my intepretation based on my description of my attainment state.
Then, use the S1 ,
If you don't like S1 from the snake crane wing chun lineage then use Y1 to Y5 from the yik kam wing chun lineages.

If you don't like how the Chinese called it enter into silence, then called it coherence state .

The bottom line is it is a well define and attainable measurable physiology state.
Those who visited me all has a taste to enter this coherence state.
Certainly, it is
Not an Indian mudra dancing or entertainment or story telling or philosophy.







Indian Mudra Dancing is full of hand gesture content that represents symbolic meaning in communicating with an audience, but that is part of storytelling entertainment.

[PalmStriker]

Snake fist punch, ffffingertips move vertical, then horizontal(crane plays with water) wrist revolves hand to ward off capture, returns to side of practitioner. :)

[Hendrik]

Part S1 is describing the Jong or standing stake or zhan zhuang , as Y1 and Y5 describe in details. The platform of snt. To develop the core engine or power handling transmission.


The finger tips move...ect you describe is belongs to part S2 . Which is not the description of part S1.



What your misunderstanding is exactly the issue when one doesn't follow kuen kuit instruction, but thinking as one likes and will get into trouble of get lock out of the door.

One needs to develop the platform before other things. Not developing the platform and jumping step is the dead trap lock one out of the door. Snt is not a kuen set , snt is Kung set. When one mistake snt as a kuen set, will make same mistake you made here.



Not to mention, finger move horizontally is the snake slide worm move technologynof handling joints, it is certainly not crane plays with water . This is exactly what my worried about releasing he kuit to the pulic , when people get too creative and not following what it is , but thinking one can interprate freely as one wants.

As those who has visited me knows every kuit develop a specific skill, it is a technology not a creative story telling event, it is specific.

As i have mention before, The reason I brought up emwave biofeedback machine is to set a reference clearly so that one knows ecactly what it is. Instead of become a guessing and poetry wiring event.




Snake fist punch, ffffingertips move vertical, then horizontal(crane plays with water) wrist revolves hand to ward off capture, returns to side of practitioner. :)

[PalmStriker]

Red Boat SLT does not look to follow the same form pattern as the other lineages that evolved from it. Someone mixed things around a bit since the invention of the light bulb. :)

[Hendrik]

Not true.

It is just yesterday, at my home, wcners from different wck lineages using the s and y kuit to turn on their snt engine.

Since 1855, all red boat offspring wck snt hard ware doesn't evolve too far. When the kuen kuit software install the hardware comes alive.

It is not about look but do one knows what it is for.


Red Boat SLT does not look to follow the same form pattern as the other lineages that evolved from it. Someone mixed things around a bit since the invention of the light bulb. :)

[PalmStriker]

My sifu taught me to start my SLT engine with double fingertips eyestrike to the enemy's eyes immediately followed by double palmstrike pushing force to the upper chest. No time to wait for engine to crank over. :)

[Hendrik]

You are free to believe your sifu is the reborn of the Buddha. I am ok with it.

But, Gautama Buddha is certainly not as you think.


You can also called a bicycle as rocket engine.



My sifu taught me to start my SLT engine with double fingertips eyestrike to the enemy's eyes immediately followed by double palmstrike pushing force to the upper chest. No time to wait for engine to crank over. :)

[PalmStriker]

I know other styles of WingChun do not start the SLT formset in this fashion, but my snakestyle lineage does. :)

[Hendrik]

Everyone is free to evolve their own Wck. But not everyone is naming their art properly.



I know other styles of WingChun do not start the SLT formset in this fashion, but my snakestyle lineage does. :)

[tc101]

Here we go.


Yes yes you are taking us for a ride.



Post 1855 , after the single set being redesign into a three set system. Snt is organized into five sections. And it is kept that way until today for Wck lineages from the red boat.


This is the theory you keep trying to get people to accept without any real hard evidence.



The following two sets of kuen kuit are preserved by both the snake crane Wck and yik kam lineage.

The snake crane lineage kuit is a post 1855 snt kuit.


How do you know when the kuit was created? What is your evidence? Do we just accept it because you say so? Who created it? When ws it created?



The yik kam kuit is a pre 1855 kuit which describe the first part of the long set slt which later rename as post 1855 snt set.


Again where is the evidence that this kuit predates 1855? Where is your evidence?

How can we know that someone in the Yik Kam lineage did not just adopt the omei kuit at some later date?



The yik kam kuit has more details in the six core elements , body, mind, breathing, Qi, force change, and momentum. While the snake crane kuit present the content of the five sections of the snt. Thus, when these two kuit combine, we can see clearly the content of the 1850 red boat era snt practice.


Here on there is a reference on snt. This is the beginning, more polished translation and details comments will surface and discuss....etc since everyone from different lineages now can study and present their view .

Note: The coding of S# , Ypre#, and Y# is for convenient reference and discussion code. So when one practice snt one can refer to the section and the kuit comes with it.
Ie one can ask or discuss what is Ypre 5 or Y16 or S6 means


One of the things that I learned about the kuit that I found interesting is that many different arts and not just lineages of wing chun share similar kuit but use the same kuit to mean different things. This shows us how the literal interpretaion is not so important and that the kuit is just a reference for the person to person teaching itself. It also shows how vague the kuits can be without the underlying treaching and how much can be read into them if we want to. I mention this because you are taking two sets of kuit and imposing your own individual reading and interpretation of them and seeing what you want to see then presenting this as proof of your historical theory.

[Hendrik]

Your issues has been response before in this forum and articles has been published and investigate in Asia. Thus, I am not repeating it here.


Kuen kuit is here, take it or leave it. Not for sale, not for preaching.






Yes yes you are taking us for a ride.



This is the theory you keep trying to get people to accept without any real hard evidence.



How do you know when the kuit was created? What is your evidence? Do we just accept it because you say so? Who created it? When ws it created?



Again where is the evidence that this kuit predates 1855? Where is your evidence?

How can we know that someone in the Yik Kam lineage did not just adopt the omei kuit at some later date?



One of the things that I learned about the kuit that I found interesting is that many different arts and not just lineages of wing chun share similar kuit but use the same kuit to mean different things. This shows us how the literal interpretaion is not so important and that the kuit is just a reference for the person to person teaching itself. It also shows how vague the kuits can be without the underlying treaching and how much can be read into them if we want to. I mention this because you are taking two sets of kuit and imposing your own individual reading and interpretation of them and seeing what you want to see then presenting this as proof of your historical theory.

[kung fu fighter]

Thanks Hendrik, This is a wonderful contribution to the whole wing chun world. Excellent presentation of your research!

[tc101]

Your issues has been response before in this forum and articles has been published and investigate in Asia. Thus, I am not repeating it here.


Kuen kuit is here, take it or leave it. Not for sale, not for preaching.

Yes yes articles published is Asia prove what? Nothing. I do thank you for not repeating it though.

It is nice to know you cannot answer my questions and prove any of your assertions.

It is wonderful that your so called research has proved exactly what you started off to prove. Give yourself a pat on the back.

[Hendrik]

Say anything you like. I am ok.




Yes yes articles published is Asia prove what? Nothing. I do thank you for not repeating it though.

It is nice to know you cannot answer my questions and prove any of your assertions.

It is wonderful that your so called research has proved exactly what you started off to prove. Give yourself a pat on the back.

[tc101]

Say anything you like. I am ok.

Yes you are the guy who can never answer a simple question with any real evidence but know the real original wing chun. It must be nice to be such an authority on wing chun without ever getting out of your arm chair.

[Hendrik]

I rather spend my time with many Wck sifus as I have done last week.


Yes you are the guy who can never answer a simple question with any real evidence but know the real original wing chun. It must be nice to be such an authority on wing chun without ever getting out of your arm chair.

[tc101]

I rather spend my time with many Wck sifus as I have done last week.

I am sure you spent your time sparring right? Or were you demonstrating with your yoga ball and talking?