Zhai Kui

[mooyingmantis]

Does anyone else here play the 摘 盔 - Zhāi Kuī - Rip Off the Helmet set? I was told it comes from 摔 手 螳 螂 拳 - shuāishǒu tánglángquán - Throwing Hand Mantis and was primarily practiced in Taiwan.

[YouKnowWho]

................................

[mooyingmantis]

John,
It is a form, not just a technique. :)
I am familiar with the technique, I was talking about the form.
Thanks for the reply though!

[Tainan Mantis]

You posted in other thread

"My Wu Tang instructor recently told me that we have three forms from Shuaishou Tanglangquan in our curriculum: Praying Mantis Hands, Take the Helmet and Inserting Fist. "

Praying Mantis Hands is from Liang Jinchuan- son of Liang Xuexiang. Brought to Taiwan by Wang Songting.
Cha Chuei- Stick in the Fist is 100% 7 Star Mantis
Then we have Zhai Kui-Take the Helmet, whose origin is somewhat of a mystery. Most likely from Wang Songting. Either taught by him or created by him.

Taiwan Martial Art Research Development Report( Taiwan Di Qu Guo Shu Fa Zhan Zhi Diao Cha Yan Jiu is a report financed by Taiwan government of exhuastive research on the transmission of Northern martial arts in Taiwan after WW2. there is no mention of a master of Shuai Shou Tang Lang in Taiwan.

My teacher, Shi Zhengzhong, who spent his entire life climbing every hill of Taiwan looking for all things of Mantis also never came across Shuai Shou Tang Lang. The only mention of Shuai Shou Tang Lang is a brief list of Keywords in a book by Wei Xiaotang of Eight Step Mantis. This book was compiled by Master Wei's students and is filled with material from other books and styles including those not native to Taiwan- Huang Hanxun- for example.

In the book Taiwan Martial Art Research Development Report( Taiwan Di Qu Guo Shu Fa Zhan Zhi Diao Cha Yan Jiu under Wang Songting, no mention is made of Take the Helmet. Nor do any of his students have it listed under their curriculum in this book.

Maybe a direct student of Gao Daosheng may be able to shed more light on the matter.

[Jimbo]

Back when I lived in Taiwan, I actually learned two different versions of Zhai Kuei, but unfortunately, I no longer remember either of them. The first version I learned when I trained at Gao's school. It was actually one of his students who taught it to me. The other I learned under Peng Sifu. All I do remember is that the two versions were very different from each other.

[Tainan Mantis]

Thanks Jimbo,
Gao Daosheng taught the form, but who is Peng Shifu? Student of who?

[Jimbo]

Hi.
Peng Sifu is the late Peng Han-Ping, whom I consider to have been my true instructor in Tanglang. His main Mantis teacher had been Wei Hsiao-Tang for five years until Wei died, and then he learned 7-Star, I believe, through the Wu Tan Institute and other teachers. His other specialties were Hung Gar and Chen Taiji, though I only trained Tanglang under him. He died in an accident in 1999 in Taiwan, over six years after I left there.

[mooyingmantis]

Kevin & Jimbo,
Thank you for the information!

So far I am aware of three versions of this form on video:

Long Fist Praying Mantis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vET--RFgCE8&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLBB3047D9BD76D588

Su Yu Chang's version demonstrated by Mike Martello:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh_7Eq_U_ng

My kung fu brother Laurence Frese:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfVnmfW1zRc

Laurence's version is closest to the individual movements that I have learned so far. However, his performance is far softer and doesn't express the jing I was shown. I believe he was just doing it slowly and smoothly to demonstrate the individual movements, which sacrificed the explosive power of the movements. Not a criticism, just a critique.

[Jimbo]

Richard:
Thanks for posting those clips!

The performer in the first vid, I'm pretty sure, was my senior under Gao Daosheng whom I knew by his abbreviated name,"Ah-ben". It sure looks like him, though it must have been filmed in the 1980s (maybe when he and Gao visited Japan?). He would be into his 50s now. Anyway, the form resembles the first version I learned, but there are differences, too. At Gao's school, I remember many people added to or varied the forms, so people often did things their own way. I remember Ah-ben tended to keep his forms the way he was taught.

[mooyingmantis]

The performer in the first vid, I'm pretty sure, was my senior under Gao Daosheng whom I knew by his abbreviated name,"Ah-ben". It sure looks like him, though it must have been filmed in the 1980s (maybe when he and Gao visited Japan?).

Jimbo,
I'm glad you enjoyed the clips!

The clip you mentioned was filmed in 1993 in Japan.



At Gao's school, I remember many people added to or varied the forms, so people often did things their own way. I remember Ah-ben tended to keep his forms the way he was taught.

It is interesting that they felt so free to change the forms.



I remember Ah-ben tended to keep his forms the way he was taught.

I had the privilege of viewing a clip of Master Yang Shu-Ton performing Zhai Kui in front of the Wu Tang Institute in Taiwan. He looks like he was in his early twenties at the time. The form as he demonstrated it then is the same as is taught in the Ohio Wu Tang now. I was very pleased to see it remains unchanged 40 some years later. :)

[mooyingmantis]

I just watched Master Yang Shu-Ton's tape on Zhai Kui that was filmed in the United States in the 1980's. On the tape it states that our version of the form comes from Closed Door Mantis, NOT Throwing Hands Mantis. It also states that it comes from Zhang De Kui through Su Yu Zhang and to Yang Shu Ton. I am learning it from James Rogers, a disciple of Master Yang Shu-Ton.

Shifu Rogers is one of several disciples promoted to "master" by Yang Shu-Ton. His lineage can be found at The Mantis Cave.

[Tainan Mantis]

I just watched Master Yang Shu-Ton's tape on Zhai Kui that was filmed in the United States in the 1980's. On the tape it states that our version of the form comes from Closed Door Mantis, NOT Throwing Hands Mantis. It also states that it comes from Zhang De Kui through Su Yu Zhang and to Yang Shu Ton. I am learning it from James Rogers, a disciple of Master Yang Shu-Ton.

Shifu Rogers is one of several disciples promoted to "master" by Yang Shu-Ton. His lineage can be found at The Mantis Cave.

A lot of things were attributed to Zhang Dekui that he did not teach. This is a good example.
A Japanese researcher on Mantis who studied with Su Yuzhang before he left Taiwan. This Japanese researcher published many books on kung fu which were sold in Taiwan. These books became very popular.

The section talking about Zhang Dukui didn't seem correct to Zhang Dekui's student Shi Zhengzhong, my teacher.
Master Shi took the book directly to Zhang Dekui and Master Zhang said, I didn't teach that!

In the past I have documented exactly what material Zhang Dekui did teach. His kung fu is vastly different from what is seen in Zhai Kui form

[mooyingmantis]

A lot of things were attributed to Zhang Dekui that he did not teach. This is a good example.
A Japanese researcher on Mantis who studied with Su Yuzhang before he left Taiwan. This Japanese researcher published many books on kung fu which were sold in Taiwan. These books became very popular.

The section talking about Zhang Dukui didn't seem correct to Zhang Dekui's student Shi Zhengzhong, my teacher.
Master Shi took the book directly to Zhang Dekui and Master Zhang said, I didn't teach that!

In the past I have documented exactly what material Zhang Dekui did teach. His kung fu is vastly different from what is seen in Zhai Kui form

Would the Japanese researcher you mentioned be Matsuda Ryuchi? The only biographical information that I could find concerning him mentions his teacher as Liu Yunchiao. Can you tell me how you connect him with Su Yu Zhang?

Can you please reiterate what Zhang Dekui did teach? What specifically was attributed to him in the book you mentioned that he did not teach?

In an earlier post you mentioned that you had not studied Zhai Kui. How can you say with such certainty that it is different from what Zhang Dekui taught?

In above posts you mention:

1. Zhai Kui is not mentioned in the curriculum of Wang Songting.
2. Gao Daosheng taught the form (as verified by Jimbo).
3. Zhai Kui is different than the kung fu taught by Zhang Dekui.

If this information is correct, then we have to ask the following questions:

1. From whom did Gao Daosheng learn the form?
2. From whom did Peng Hanping learn the form?
3. From whom did Su Yu Zhang learn the form?

Thanks for your input! Please realize that my comments and queries are not a challenge to you personally, or your Shifu. I am only trying to dig for the truth. If the truth can still be found. :)

I will certainly admit to being a very anal minded person. I like to know and understand everything about the forms that I train on a daily basis. History, quanpu, applications - I want anything and everything that can help me to master the things that I train.

[Jimbo]

Richard,
I strongly believe the reason that many of Gao's students added their own variations (usually subtle, some obvious) into their forms is because he almost never taught the applications (a big reason that I left). So then some people would think, "This move would look better if I do it this way." And at the time (mid-'80s), almost all the teaching was done by senior students. Ah-Ben was the best/most consistent, but sometimes you were taught by someone else.

I would point out that this seemed most common in the Chang Chuan-based forms. I remember there were two lists of forms on signboards on a wall, one of Mantis and the other of various Chang Chuan sets. I remember there being a lot more Chang Chuan forms.

Regarding Matsuda Ryuchi, I have a lot of those books from when I lived in Taiwan. He not only researched Mantis, but northern styles in general. While I don't know if he or his books were really good or not, the books themselves were actually produced better than the typical Chinese MA books. I used to be able to read Chinese somewhat decently, and his books were generally not a difficult read, as Chinese goes. It's been a while, but I wouldn't doubt that he got some things wrong, though.

[mooyingmantis]

Jimbo,
Thank you for your insights!

It amazes me that anyone would teach a form, yet not teach the applications. :eek: I cannot understand that mentality. I would feel like I had wasted my time learning the form.

I also think it is a terrible practice to have senior students teaching the classes. I teach all the classes at my school. Though I do allow seniors to add or clarify ideas when working one on one with other students in my presence.

Do you remember which mantis forms Master Gao taught, or at least which ones you learned during your time there?

Researching martial arts is a difficult task. Many things were only passed orally. This can lead to many mistakes and misunderstandings. Even written materials may be fraudulent or embellished. And politics abounds to the point that you never know who is trying to diminish the reputation of another teacher, while trying to pitch their own lineage. :(

[Jimbo]

Richard,
I don't want to sound like I'm disrespecting Gao, and I *hope* I'm not giving that impression, but I'm simply being truthful with my experiences there and what I saw. He was the first CMA teacher I ever trained under, and at that time I thought you had to wait for 'the good stuff.' I went to his school for 3 years, and occasionally he'd show an application, but he'd never break down the forms for apps, nor teach power generation, etc. I have no doubt he'd done that for a very small few, behind closed doors, at some point. He emphasized it was for health, etc.

When I found Peng Shifu, I re-learned a lot of things, but was able to progress rapidly because he had a good method of teaching the system. And he was young; only about 2 years older than I was. In many cases, there may be advantages to learning from an old teacher, but there's also something to be said for learning from a good teacher who's in the process of making a name for and developing himself. Besides that, Peng Shifu had us do lots of basics and 2-person drills and sparring, besides the forms.

As for the sets that I learned at Gao's school, to the best of my recollection, they are:

Tanglang Shou

Lien Zi Chuei (Chang Chuan)

Xiao Hu Yen (Chang Chuan and Mantis)

Beng Bu

Si Lu Mei Hua (Chang Chuan)

Si Lu Cha Chuan (Chang Chuan)

Lan Jie

Duo Gang

Zhai Kuei

(and I sneak-learned Er Lu Mai Fu, a different school's Chang Chuan set, from a friend I knew)

I also learned the typical weapons, staff, spear, saber, sword, etc.

When I went to Peng Shifu's group, I relearned Mantis, which included some of the same-named forms, but they had varying degrees of differences. Xiao Hu Yen, a Chang Chuan set, is commonly practiced by Mantis practitioners in Taiwan as an early set. I also picked up Xiao Fan Che, Li Pi, Chi Shou, and Er Lu Zhai Yao from the 8-Step style. Unfortunately, I've retained none of these except, of course, for Beng Bu, which is easy to remember even without doing it. Under Peng Shifu, the only weapons I cared to learn were spear, staff, jian, and I played for a while with the rope dart. When I switched, I no longer did any empty-hand Chang Chuan sets, except for Peng Shifu's version of Xiao Hu Yen.

I will say that this training all helped me when I ultimately switched my training to Choy Lee Fut, even though the flavor, some principles, etc., are different. There are a few similarities in areas as well. Peng Shifu emphasized that if you develop a strong base and understanding in kung fu, you can adapt to learning any other kung fu system fairly easily, which I found true in my case. So in that sense, the training that I received under Peng Shifu is still a part of me.

[mooyingmantis]

Jimbo,
Thank you for such a detailed answer! I appreciate your willingness to share. :)

I see that you listed Zhai Kui last in the order of forms. Did you learn it after Beng Bu and Lanjie, or were you just offering a random listing? Do you know if it was considered a beginning, intermediate, or advanced set?

The applications that I have learned are very typical of mantis. Throwing, arm breaking and striking abound in the form. One interesting thing found in the form are eye attacks that others have denied are found in mantis.

[Jimbo]

After the first three I listed, the forms did not seem taught in any particular order. Usually Chang Chuan sets were more freely taught. But Zhai Kuei was the last I learned, and was the only one that I actually asked to learn. Gao actually called in a student that was almost never there to teach it to me. While I was there, I never saw anybody else practicing Zhai Kuei, so I assume it was rarely taught, or was considered advanced. I ended up not practicing it very long, because I didn't get a good feeling from the guy who was teaching me, i.e., he didn't seem too happy to be called in. That wasn't long before I met Peng Shifu and switched.

[mooyingmantis]

Jimbo,
Thank you for the added information!

[mooyingmantis]

Kevin,

Recently a video of Zhai Kui was posted on YouTube by Andrew Shinn, a student of Paul Sun (Philadelphia). I asked the poster if he knew where the version he learned came from. He responded that it came from Zhang Dekui through Shi Zhenzhong to Paul Sun.

I thought you might be interested in that.

The video and comments can be found here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvqjCUav_iE

Here is the website that shows the genealogy of Paul Sun:

http://sites.google.com/site/teammantisfamily/shi-zhenzhong

[Tainan Mantis]

Thanks for that.


Kevin,

Recently a video of Zhai Kui was posted on YouTube by Andrew Shinn, a student of Paul Sun (Philadelphia). I asked the poster if he knew where the version he learned came from. He responded that it came from Zhang Dekui through Shi Zhenzhong to Paul Sun.

I thought you might be interested in that.

The video and comments can be found here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvqjCUav_iE

Here is the website that shows the genealogy of Paul Sun:

http://sites.google.com/site/teammantisfamily/shi-zhenzhong

[mooyingmantis]

Here are pictures of my son, Logan, demonstrating three postures from the form:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150593832044481.400025.750549480&type=1

[mooyingmantis]

Here is a quanpu (fist song) that I found on a Chinese website of a Qixing Tanglangquan school:

七星螳螂拳摘盔

01螳螂開門式

02採刁密肘靠

03螳螂獻爪式

04採手右劈砸

05黑虎坐洞式

06七星右栽捶

07七星右挑抱

08上封下落式

09七星破骨手

10轉身破骨手
11獨立右直捶

12漏打右圈捶

13羅漢伸腰式
14縱跳右盤肘

15轉身磨盤手

16七星抹眉手

17右掛左挫捶

18右疊肘至膝

19七星點睛手
20泰山壓頂捶

21轉身掛衝捶

22餓虎撲食式

23旋身拗步捶

24七星右挑抱

25美女拾履式
26登山右斜捶

27獨立右壓頂

28漏打右圈捶

29纏絲斧刃腳
30登山右偷心

31背後提肘打

32馬步漏衝肘

33七星左栽捶
34弓步鎖口捶

35馬步雙劈式

36劈挑撐拌手

37螳螂獻爪式

And here is my translation:

Seven Star Praying Mantis Fist - Take Helmet

01. Praying Mantis Opens Door Method
02. Gather Diao, Lean On Secret Elbow
03. Praying Mantis Presents Claw Method
04. Pluck Hand, Right Chop & Pound
05. Black Tiger Sits in Cave Method
06. Seven Stars, Right Insert Strike
07. Seven Stars, Right Lift & Embrace
08. Upper Seal, Lower Falling Method
09. Seven Stars, Break Bone Hand
10. Turn Body, Break Bone Hand
11. Single Leg, Right Straight Strike
12. Leak Strike, Right Circle Strike
13. Lohan Stretches Back Method
14. Vertical Jump, Right Coiling Elbow
15. Turn Body, Millstone Hand
16. Seven Stars, Wipe Brow Hand
17. Right Suspend Left Obstruct Strike
18. Right Fold Elbow to Knee
19. Seven Stars, Dot Eyes Hand
20. Tai Mountain Crushes Head Strike
21. Turn Body, Hang & Colliding Strike
22. Hungry Tiger Pounces to Feed Method
23. Spin Body, Twist Step & Strike
24. Seven Stars, Right Lift & Embrace
25. Beautiful Woman Picks Up Shoe Method
26. Climb Mountain, Right Slanting Strike
27. Single Leg, Right Crush Head
28. Leak Strike, Right Circle Strike
29. Wrap Silk, Hatchet Blade Kick
30. Climb Mountain, Right Steal Heart
31. Rear Raise Elbow Strike
32. Horse Stance, Leak Colliding Elbow
33. Seven Stars, Left Insert Strike
34. Bow Step, Lock Mouth Strike
35. Horse Step, Double Split Method
36. Chop & Raise Support Mix Hand
37. Praying Mantis Presents Claw Method

Enjoy!

[Tainan Mantis]

Definetly influenced by WHF. Wang Songting's form, I would think, does not follow these nameing conventions of regulated 5 character names.

[mooyingmantis]

Definetly influenced by WHF. Wang Songting's form, I would think, does not follow these nameing conventions of regulated 5 character names.

I agree.

It also omits a few movements.

[mooyingmantis]

Today Shihfu James Rodgers finished teaching me the Praying Mantis Kung Fu closed door form, Zhai Kui (Rip Off the Helmet) along with its open and hidden applications.

Shihfu Rodgers is a closed door disciple of Master Yang Xiaodong. Shihfu Yang was a disciple of Master Liu Yunchiao, the bodyguard of Chiang Kai-shek, who served as the President of the Republic of China.

It was fascinating listening to Shihfu Rogers as he told me about the early history of Taiwan and the exploits of Master Liu Yunchaio. Liu not only served as the bodyguard of Chiang Kai-shek, but also worked as an assassin under Chiang Kai-shek during their time in Mainland China.

Now begins the thousands of repetitions of the form to master it. :o

[Jimbo]

Mooyingmantis:

That sounds very cool!

In 1990 or '91, Peng Shifu, my second Mantis teacher, took a group of us to the Wutan school in Jingmei and introduced us to Master Liu. Liu Yun-Chiao was his first teacher (Baji). Unfortunately, at that time his health was poor. Master Liu passed away in 1992.

[mooyingmantis]

Wow! You were very lucky!

Earlier you mentioned that you learned Zhai Kui from Master Peng. Do you know where he learned the form?

So far I have seen four versions of the form.

Here is the form as I learned it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5kM56HjZHw

Though I have no idea who the performer is.

[Jimbo]

You know, I'm no longer certain that Zhai Kuei is one of the forms I relearned from Peng Shifu. I remember him talking about it with me, but I had relearned so many sets from him, with varying degrees of differences from Gao's sets. If I did, I did not retain much of an impression of it, and I cannot see myself as having been that lazy or careless about it. I now think I was mixing it up in my head with another set.

As for where Peng Shifu would have learned his 7-Star, I think it was through the Wu Tan school and other sources, but I never really asked him who in particular.

One set I only recently remembered relearning is Si Lu Beng Da. And I know why that one is hazy, because I never liked that set in either version.

I apologize for the mix-up! :o

[mooyingmantis]

You know, I'm no longer certain that Zhai Kuei is one of the forms I relearned from Peng Shifu. I remember him talking about it with me, but I had relearned so many sets from him, with varying degrees of differences from Gao's sets. If I did, I did not retain much of an impression of it, and I cannot see myself as having been that lazy or careless about it. I now think I was mixing it up in my head with another set.

As for where Peng Shifu would have learned his 7-Star, I think it was through the Wu Tan school and other sources, but I never really asked him who in particular.

One set I only recently remembered relearning is Si Lu Beng Da. And I know why that one is hazy, because I never liked that set in either version.

I apologize for the mix-up! :o

No problem! :)

[Tainan Mantis]

Today Shihfu James Rodgers finished teaching me the Praying Mantis Kung Fu closed door form, Zhai Kui

Why do you say 'closed-door?'
What is closed-door about it?

[mooyingmantis]

Why do you say 'closed-door?'

Because that is how it was described by Yang Xiaodong and James Rodgers. And if the term is good enough for them...


What is closed-door about it?

The things I cannot discuss on a public forum. :)

[alextse4]

Any one here seen the 2 men form of 7 stars Zhai Kui?

[mooyingmantis]

Alex,
Not yet. Though we do have the form. I just haven't learned it yet.

Does the Hong Kong Seven Star branch practice Zhai Kui?

[alextse4]

Alex,
Not yet. Though we do have the form. I just haven't learned it yet.

Does the Hong Kong Seven Star branch practice Zhai Kui?

No LGY's lineage did not have Zhai Kui.
GM Chung Yin Bo have this 2 men form.

[mooyingmantis]

No LGY's lineage did not have Zhai Kui.
GM Chung Yin Bo have this 2 men form.

Thank you for that information!

[mooyingmantis]

At the beginning of this thread we debated about the history of the form. Who created it? What lineage did it come from?

This morning I had the pleasant opportunity to sit down with Master Yang Xiaodong for about an hour and a half and discuss these questions.

Here is what I was told:

1. Who created the form has been lost in time.
2. The form came down through the Seven Star line of mantis.
3. It was Wang Songting who called the form, along with two other forms, Shuaishou Tanglangquan (Slapping Hands Mantis). He referred to the form as "slapping hands", because of the opening movements of the form which should have a "slapping" feel.
4. It was popular in Taiwan and there are now several versions.
5. The name, "Take the Helmet", comes from the neck breaking techniques found in the form.
6. Master Yang learned the form directly from Wang Songting.

The three forms taught by the Wutan that Wang Songting referred to as Shuaishou Tanglangquan are:

插 捶 - chā chuí - Insert Fist
摘 盔 - zhāi kuī - Take the Helmet
螳 螂 手 - táng láng shǒu - Praying Mantis Hand

The above Cha Chui is different from the Hong Kong Cha Chui form of the same name.

[xiao yao]

zhou shifu told me the form tanglang shou was created by liang jing chuan, the son of liang xue xiang. he said it has a similar flavour to chuan zhi of hao family

also, in our meihua lu is a movement called ba wang zhai kui - tyrant takes the helmet, which proceeds qin fa cuo zui ba - grab the hair and hit the mouth. are these the same moves that are in your form richard?

[mooyingmantis]

zhou shifu told me the form tanglang shou was created by liang jing chuan, the son of liang xue xiang. he said it has a similar flavour to chuan zhi of hao family

Yes, that is the same history that I heard for the form. However, somehow it was adopted into the Seven Star family and taught in Taiwan by them.


also, in our meihua lu is a movement called ba wang zhai kui - tyrant takes the helmet, which proceeds qin fa cuo zui ba - grab the hair and hit the mouth. are these the same moves that are in your form richard?

I know the movement you are talking about. But it is not the same movement in Zhai Kui. I will gladly show you the form and the particular movement when we hook up in Yantai. :)

[mooyingmantis]

Zhai Kui techniques encompass all four methods of mantis attacks (da, ti, shuai, na).

Here is a breakdown of techniques found in the form:

23 hand attacks (fists, palms, claws)
14 throwing techniques,
5 elbow techniques,
3 leg techniques,
4 joint locking techniques,
3 neck breaking techniques,
2 eye gouging techniques.

These numbers can change based on the version of the form one learns.

The main target areas include the eyes, throat, neck, heart, diaphragm, bladder and groin.