History of WCK: Tan Sau Ng

[JPinAZ]

I copied my latestest posts from another thread regarding Tan Sau Ng, his role in WCK's proliferation and how his name came about to this new thread to continue discussion with Lee Chiang Po.
Any opinions or comments are welcome!


Here is some feedback from a recent workshop regarding our understanding of Tan Sao Ng based on Hung Fa Yi's history regarding his connections to WCK, as well as his involvment in both the Red Boat Society (and thru Wong Wah Bo) and Boxer Society (and thru Hung Gun Biu):

http://hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3214&p=20819#post20819
http://hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3214&p=20792#post20792

A more in-depth write-up on Hung Fa Yi's position on Red Boat/Hung Gun Boxer Society and connection with Tan Sau Ng:
http://hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3238&p=20904#post20904

Technical information regarding the "5 Tan Saus" of Tan Sau Ng.


As far as HFY's history regarding Taan Sau Ng, the reason for '5' in his name was in reference to how he could describe/represent all of the primary WC concepts/principles through use of his (5) taan saus.

In HFY WCK, we have a whole training platform focusing specifically on these 5 taan saus, which are further divided into 3 taan 'saus' (1 for centerline, 2 for Shoulder/5-line), and 2 that are actually tan 'kius' (for inner/outer gate ranges). Depending on application, these '5 taan saus' express the following main concepts:
Centerline
Half point & 2-line defense concepts
Box & Gate theories
Doi ying/joi ying energy concepts
And in general, the represnt HFY's Time/Space/Energy concept.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just a quick "FYI":
For something to be viewed as historical it must be verified by multiple attestations.
Which should mean multiple independent sources.
Anecdotal "history" is just that and nothing more.
Opinions and "stories" must be verified before one views them as historical.
And even then when some evidence is accepted as historical that does NOT make it correct, it just means that it has been collaborated with another independent source.
An example would be:
Source A) states that TSN was part of the Red Boat society but this source is of the TSN lineage and as such has a vested interest in claiming such.
Source B) confirms this and source B) is independent and has no vested interest ( a police document that shows the names of those that belong to the RD soceity for example).
What you now have is one bias source and one independent source that verifies it.
BUT all that does is identify A person named TSN that is mentioned as a member of the RB society, it does NOT collaborate any other part of the story.

[Vajramusti]

Just a quick "FYI":
For something to be viewed as historical it must be verified by multiple attestations.
Which should mean multiple independent sources.
Anecdotal "history" is just that and nothing more.
Opinions and "stories" must be verified before one views them as historical.
And even then when some evidence is accepted as historical that does NOT make it correct, it just means that it has been collaborated with another independent source.
An example would be:
Source A) states that TSN was part of the Red Boat society but this source is of the TSN lineage and as such has a vested interest in claiming such.
Source B) confirms this and source B) is independent and has no vested interest ( a police document that shows the names of those that belong to the RD soceity for example).
What you now have is one bias source and one independent source that verifies it.
BUT all that does is identify A person named TSN that is mentioned as a member of the RB society, it does NOT collaborate any other part of the story.
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Good points.

[sanjuro_ronin]

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Good points.

Thanks Joy.
Personally I have never paid that much attention tot he history of ANY MA, perhaps because I know how "loose" many people are with their views of history of their own systems and how much gray area there truly is in EVERY MA system.
Also because what has been done before has nothing to do with what is being done now ( or lacktherof).
However I do know that for some this stuff is very important but I think that if it is that important then that it must be researched in the correct way.

[Vajramusti]

Thanks Joy.
Personally I have never paid that much attention tot he history of ANY MA, perhaps because I know how "loose" many people are with their views of history of their own systems and how much gray area there truly is in EVERY MA system.
Also because what has been done before has nothing to do with what is being done now ( or lacktherof).
However I do know that for some this stuff is very important but I think that if it is that important then that it must be researched in the correct way.-
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Hi Sanjuro-Martial arts histories are notoriously unreliable specially when put out as marketing devices.

Douglas Wile's work on taichi history is a notable exception.

Oral history for purposes of pointing out something in an art can help with insights for students on what a teacher is thinking or thought.

History is not science but still there are standards in historical research- plus there are blind peer review requirements.

Not everything has to pass the tests of historical scholarship..for enjoyment or learning some desired skills.. But the search for legitimacy and acceptance often is a driving force in the making of many historical claims...specially in kung fu.

joy

[sanjuro_ronin]

-
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Hi Sanjuro-Martial arts histories are notoriously unreliable specially when put out as marketing devices.

Douglas Wile's work on taichi history is a notable exception.

Oral history for purposes of pointing out something in an art can help with insights for students on what a teacher is thinking or thought.

History is not science but still there are standards in historical research- plus there are blind peer review requirements.

Not everything has to pass the tests of historical scholarship..for enjoyment or learning some desired skills.. But the search for legitimacy and acceptance often is a driving force in the making of many historical claims...specially in kung fu.

joy

Agreed my friend :)

[LoneTiger108]

I understand those that prefer not to even think about past stories, I too take every bit of 'lore' or 'his-story' with a pinch of salt, but has anyone ever considered that Tan Sau Ng and Ng Jung So are one and the same?

[Wayfaring]

-
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Hi Sanjuro-Martial arts histories are notoriously unreliable specially when put out as marketing devices.

Douglas Wile's work on taichi history is a notable exception.

Oral history for purposes of pointing out something in an art can help with insights for students on what a teacher is thinking or thought.

History is not science but still there are standards in historical research- plus there are blind peer review requirements.

Not everything has to pass the tests of historical scholarship..for enjoyment or learning some desired skills.. But the search for legitimacy and acceptance often is a driving force in the making of many historical claims...specially in kung fu.

joy

You guys are both something else, especially considering there is ABOUT ZERO material today published on the history of WCK that passes stringent historical research requirements.

HFY has oral tradition and a few artifacts.

Is it possible to enjoy the tradition as a story and interesting perspective without being ********s?

I mean the nun story is a history story told and retold. It's an interesting perspective too. But we don't see threads on that replete with visits from Bildad and Zophar with congratulatory slaps on the back due to their stimulating educational critical talents.

[CFT]

has anyone ever considered that Tan Sau Ng and Ng Jung So are one and the same?Totally different generation, and the 'Ng' in 'Tan Sau Ng' is the number 5, whereas the 'Ng' in 'Ng Jung So' is a surname (Wu in Mandarin).

[JPinAZ]

What is funny sanjuro, for someone that "never paid that much attention tot he history of ANY MA", you're the first to reply on a historical discussion thread ;)

Now, if you paid much any attention to what I wrote, I was clear to state this is "Hung Fa Yi's history" (as passed down orally thru our lineage), as well as "our position" on Tan Sau Ng. If you or somoene isn't from my lineage, it might not be your history. That's fine too.

BUT, most lineages do point back to Tan Sau Ng as part of their oral history. I went one step further and pointed to how this oral history about TSN, that most all WC lineages mention in their own history, ties back to our system training and knowledge. Is it 'proof'? Nope. But it's pretty interesting to me!

[LoneTiger108]

Totally different generation, and the 'Ng' in 'Tan Sau Ng' is the number 5, whereas the 'Ng' in 'Ng Jung So' is a surname (Wu in Mandarin).

I don't know if the generation thing really matters when we are discussing Martial nicknames does it?? Just speculating. And FWIW 'Wu' is 5 too. So can anyone provide the Chinese characters for his name, like, anyone?

He is a mystery, as is this Tan Sau Ng 'legend' as I have heard that could have been a nickname for Ng Mui too, and 'he' could have been the first openly gay Monk.

And hasn't anyone heard the one about the opium den being the centre of ALL legends associated with Wing Chun?? And guess who owned an opium den?

For all we know Ng Jung So, Tan Sau Ng & Beggar So are the same person and that actually makes some sense I think ;)

If we are looking for facts, wasn't it the Yiu Family who housed Ng Jung So in his later years, like the Fungs did for Leung Jan? Ng Jung So even had kids, so there is every chance his family lives on to this day (and I will say the same for Wing Chun!)

[sanjuro_ronin]

What is funny sanjuro, for someone that "never paid that much attention tot he history of ANY MA", you're the first to reply on a historical discussion thread ;)

Now, if you paid much any attention to what I wrote, I was clear to state this is "Hung Fa Yi's history" (as passed down orally thru our lineage), as well as "our position" on Tan Sau Ng. If you or somoene isn't from my lineage, it might not be your history. That's fine too.

BUT, most lineages do point back to Tan Sau Ng as part of their oral history. I went one step further and pointed to how this oral history about TSN, that most all WC lineages mention in their own history, ties back to our system training and knowledge. Is it 'proof'? Nope. But it's pretty interesting to me!

"never paid much" does not equal " never paid any".
Know what I mean? ;)

[JPinAZ]

"never paid much" does not equal " never paid any".
Know what I mean? ;)

Yup! Well then, if nothing else, I'm glad I caught your attention! ;)
(you know, if we keep winking at each other, people might start to talk...)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yup! Well then, if nothing else, I'm glad I caught your attention! ;)
(you know, if we keep winking at each other, people might start to talk...)

Perv.
LOL !
MA history is great and CAN really shed the light on a MA and why it came to be, the problem is when linage rears it's ugly head and MA history ( or lack there of) is used to "legitimize" something that can ONLY be "legit" through combat and evidenced effectiveness.
When someone ( and this is not aimed at you) tries to use the history of a MA to claim the "true" *insert MA here*, then THAT is where MA history is abused and dry humped.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Anything I have said here amounts to nothing more than hearsay. Words passed down from a time long ago. I guess at least 115 years ago now. From a man living close to those times and events. Accurate or not, I can't really say. Do I believe it to be accurate? Pretty much. I have no reason not to believe it. But, what I said is all I claim to know. I couldn't say about all the rest.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And here is the thing, IF you were to find out tomorrow that this history was all wrong what difference would it make to your ability to use your WC?
None, none whatsoever.
The history of any MA is always fascinating but what a MA is all about is martial effectiveness and not history and while history can give you a better understanding of how a MA came to be ( the motivation behind its development) it doesn't make anyone a better fighter or make the MA a better MA.

[JPinAZ]

agreed, but really this goes without saying. No one here is saying that knowing the history of a MA makes you a better/worse fighter.
While WCK is a fighting art (Martial art), there are many other aspects one can look at besides just the fighting. Things like history, culture, philosophy - each of which can give us an insite as to why things are the way they are or how they came about. If you're not interested in those things much, that's cool too, but that's what this particular thread is for.

So, while I do agree with you, I hope your point has been made and we can move on? :D
Do you have any comments regarding anything I did say or links I posted? (I did talk about some technical information as well btw since history doesn't seem to be your thing)

[Hendrik]

And here is the thing, IF you were to find out tomorrow that this history was all wrong what difference would it make to your ability to use your WC?
None, none whatsoever.

The history of any MA is always fascinating but what a MA is all about is martial effectiveness and not history and while history can give you a better understanding of how a MA came to be ( the motivation behind its development) it doesn't make anyone a better fighter or make the MA a better MA.


Good question.

my interest in the history of WCK particulary the creation of SLT the long set in the red boat era, prio to the Wong Wah Boh/ Leung Jan breaking up the one long set to the three sets , is to be able to know what type of training and development is in the art and what is the result could be expected.

WCK technology DNA issue is a serious issue because 20 years from today, WCK will be very diversify and evolve in different directions. so, if the technology DNA is not identify. that time will no longer has WCK.


For me, i respect WCK his-story in evey lineges, however, expecting the his-story is not going to align with what the art is. so, it is just a good story in the most time doing no good for the art.

as an example, within my lineage, there are those who believe SLT is a shao lin art and keep practice the SLT such as the one I shows in the utube with the rigid shao lin or hung gar or old hung kuen way. so, what is the consequence? the practice lost the snake reel and crane bow. it end up to be a rigid discrete karate like of art. it simply doesnt work well at all. so, holding on a wrong story is infact could screw up the art.







in fact, lots of things in these his-story doesnt make much sense, when compare with true chinese history and the tcma history for the past 400 years. but that is ok. because every one love to have their story as the best.


For example,
Ng Mui is just a nick name, there is no Shao lin got burn, there is no a group of monks develop WCK in shao lin, the Dna of the WCK sets are providing a different evidence to the Shao lin claim , the big guy in 1850 chinese history with evidence is CLF not WCK. and the list goes on.

also, tan sau cannot be the ulitimate even with the Shao Lin standard, Tan is infact partial. because Tan is Yang type. as all chinese knows the universe is made up of and Ying Yang pair. as I-Ching said, single Yang alone will not grow. So, saying Tan is the ultimate is just revealling the person doesnt understand Chinese philosophy and the art of Shao lin.


so, could we know a clear WCK three sets technological history today?
Sure, that is not that difficult at all observing and comparing DNA of the TCMA.

but that tell nothing on the anti Qing , rebel, and ect. also, the anti Qing, rebel...ect doesnt tell anything about the technology DNA.


one major issue is some one some one always love to link the anti Qing, rebel, red boat opera with the technology DNA. and it fails because anti Qing, rebel, red boat, stories, doesnt tell so where is the art called Siu Lien Tau comes from? it cannot come from the thin air. at least for the past 400 years in the Chinese TCMA history nothing comes from thin air but evolution.

[Eric_H]

Good question.

my interest in the history of WCK particulary the creation of SLT the long set in the red boat era, prio to the Wong Wah Boh/ Leung Jan breaking up the one long set to the three sets , is to be able to know what type of training and development is in the art and what is the result could be expected.

WCK technology DNA issue is a serious issue because 20 years from today, WCK will be very diversify and evolve in different directions. so, if the technology DNA is not identify. that time will no longer has WCK.


For me, i respect WCK his-story in evey lineges, however, expecting the his-story is not going to align with what the art is. so, it is just a good story in the most time doing no good for the art.

as an example, within my lineage, there are those who believe SLT is a shao lin art and keep practice the SLT such as the one I shows in the utube with the rigid shao lin or hung gar or old hung kuen way. so, what is the consequence? the practice lost the snake reel and crane bow. it end up to be a rigid discrete karate like of art. it simply doesnt work well at all. so, holding on a wrong story is infact could screw up the art.







in fact, lots of things in these his-story doesnt make much sense, when compare with true chinese history and the tcma history for the past 400 years. but that is ok. because every one love to have their story as the best.


For example,
Ng Mui is just a nick name, there is no Shao lin got burn, there is no a group of monks develop WCK in shao lin, the Dna of the WCK sets are providing a different evidence to the Shao lin claim , the big guy in 1850 chinese history with evidence is CLF not WCK. and the list goes on.

also, tan sau cannot be the ulitimate even with the Shao Lin standard, Tan is infact partial. because Tan is Yang type. as all chinese knows the universe is made up of and Ying Yang pair. as I-Ching said, single Yang alone will not grow. So, saying Tan is the ultimate is just revealling the person doesnt understand Chinese philosophy and the art of Shao lin.


so, could we know a clear WCK three sets technological history today?
Sure, that is not that difficult at all observing and comparing DNA of the TCMA.

but that tell nothing on the anti Qing , rebel, and ect. also, the anti Qing, rebel...ect doesnt tell anything about the technology DNA.


one major issue is some one some one always love to link the anti Qing, rebel, red boat opera with the technology DNA. and it fails because anti Qing, rebel, red boat, stories, doesnt tell so where is the art called Siu Lien Tau comes from? it cannot come from the thin air. at least for the past 400 years in the Chinese TCMA history nothing comes from thin air but evolution.

What utter and absolute nonsense.

[Wayfaring]

Good question.

my interest in the history of WCK particulary the creation of SLT the long set in the red boat era, prio to the Wong Wah Boh/ Leung Jan breaking up the one long set to the three sets , is to be able to know what type of training and development is in the art and what is the result could be expected.


Good to know your interest. I caught some of that watching your video on Yik Kam SLT.



WCK technology DNA issue is a serious issue because 20 years from today, WCK will be very diversify and evolve in different directions. so, if the technology DNA is not identify. that time will no longer has WCK.

Then it's up to every family / lineage to ensure that what they are teaching is able to be passed down without degrading into nothing.



For me, i respect WCK his-story in evey lineges, however, expecting the his-story is not going to align with what the art is. so, it is just a good story in the most time doing no good for the art.

as an example, within my lineage, there are those who believe SLT is a shao lin art and keep practice the SLT such as the one I shows in the utube with the rigid shao lin or hung gar or old hung kuen way. so, what is the consequence? the practice lost the snake reel and crane bow. it end up to be a rigid discrete karate like of art. it simply doesnt work well at all. so, holding on a wrong story is infact could screw up the art.


well although I might take issue with classifying shao lin arts as all rigid, it sounds like you need to set them straight to preserver your lineage of WCK correctly.



in fact, lots of things in these his-story doesnt make much sense, when compare with true chinese history and the tcma history for the past 400 years. but that is ok. because every one love to have their story as the best.

Historians love their stories too. In case you might think history books are written without an author bias.



For example,
Ng Mui is just a nick name, there is no Shao lin got burn, there is no a group of monks develop WCK in shao lin, the Dna of the WCK sets are providing a different evidence to the Shao lin claim , the big guy in 1850 chinese history with evidence is CLF not WCK. and the list goes on.

Wow - that's quite a story. It's kind of hard to prove nothing existed at a time in the past, but everyone's got some kind of story to tell as you pointed out.



also, tan sau cannot be the ulitimate even with the Shao Lin standard, Tan is infact partial. because Tan is Yang type. as all chinese knows the universe is made up of and Ying Yang pair. as I-Ching said, single Yang alone will not grow. So, saying Tan is the ultimate is just revealling the person doesnt understand Chinese philosophy and the art of Shao lin.

Well, then Tan Sau Ng according to your viewpoint must have been a very imbalanced kind of guy, what with having a name that is all yang.

I kind of don't understand the point, though. The story from HFY oral tradition doesn't say anything about tan sau being the ultimate.



so, could we know a clear WCK three sets technological history today?
Sure, that is not that difficult at all observing and comparing DNA of the TCMA.

but that tell nothing on the anti Qing , rebel, and ect. also, the anti Qing, rebel...ect doesnt tell anything about the technology DNA.

I think you get a little wacky when you start talking about DNA. I know you have your whole line of reasoning what with the DNA subject and the true heritage from snake and crane kung fu. I think that is part of your family oral tradition and if it helps you preserve Yik Kam WCK and the details of it that others in your family miss then that's great for you. It's an interesting perspective. I think the problem gets to be applying it to all other WCK families across the board. They have different stories and ways to preserve the art.


one major issue is some one some one always love to link the anti Qing, rebel, red boat opera with the technology DNA. and it fails because anti Qing, rebel, red boat, stories, doesnt tell so where is the art called Siu Lien Tau comes from? it cannot come from the thin air. at least for the past 400 years in the Chinese TCMA history nothing comes from thin air but evolution.

This is kind of an example of what I was saying in the last paragraph. You're generalizing to an extreme. China has how many billion people living there? Do you think it's possible that some of the authors that wrote books that you own regarding Chinese TCMA history might not have met all of them?

[Wayfaring]

And here is the thing, IF you were to find out tomorrow that this history was all wrong what difference would it make to your ability to use your WC?
None, none whatsoever.


Well, speaking personally it totally messes up my fruit defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piWCBOsJr-w

[Hendrik]

Well, then Tan Sau Ng according to your viewpoint must have been a very imbalanced kind of guy, what with having a name that is all yang.

I kind of don't understand the point, though. The story from HFY oral tradition doesn't say anything about tan sau being the ultimate.


I think you get a little wacky when you start talking about DNA. I know you have your whole line of reasoning what with the DNA subject and the true heritage from snake and crane kung fu. I think that is part of your family oral tradition and if it helps you preserve Yik Kam WCK and the details of it that others in your family miss then that's great for you. It's an interesting perspective. I think the problem gets to be applying it to all other WCK families across the board. They have different stories and ways to preserve the art.


This is kind of an example of what I was saying in the last paragraph. You're generalizing to an extreme. China has how many billion people living there? Do you think it's possible that some of the authors that wrote books that you own regarding Chinese TCMA history might not have met all of them?




1. if we leave the lineage out , take things as a true third party reserach, and look at the tcma technology and china history with records. then we can nail lots of things down.

2. Tan Sau Ng, exist and we need to take him as who he is, as it is. Same with the Red Bandana army exist and we need to take them as who they are.


3. China TCMA and history is not that difficult to check out. we might not know to the exact, but the dominant key we can get there without problem.


4. the exist of the snake and crane section in the SLT, in fact has told a lots of major story for WCK. we know across WCK lineages from Chan Wah to Ku lo, to snake crane to YKS. what is the common denominator. and how is the pre 1900 version looks like. so, it is not that dificult to trace into the technology DNA of WCK.


5. Tan Sau Ng is a Shao Lin exist in 1700 according to the history. now, do not everyone get curious why is the core of Siu Lin Tau accross lineages from Chan Wah, YKS, Ku Lo, snake crane, Cho family has a signature from white Crane of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang?

So, how is it make sense that Tan Sau Ng, a Shao Lin who probably doing Chan Wu Yi type of Shao lin ( I presume Tan Sau Ng is a real Shao lin as today's Chan Wu Yi) to create a set called Siu Lien Tau, using the White Crane and Emei Technology?

in todays language is like a Microsoft guru creating a software based on Apple operating system which he is not the expert in.


In addition, according to Shao Lin, Tan Sau is Yang plam.

Palm technics always come in pair. which is a Yang Palm and Yin Palm. using the double push palm technology.

The WCK's Tan Sau is based on sealing off philosophy of Emei 12 Zhuang.


So, they really doesnt add up to say Tan Sau Ng is good in Tan Sau and create WCK.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I really don't think in terms of snake and crane or shaolin or any of that stuff. so none of it seems to matter to me.
I think that Ng developed his tan sao system to where he was good at it. Legandary? I don't think the other forms came into being until others decided to train in it. Probably added as time went by. If you think of it, the names of the forms will tell you that. Sil Lim I was told meant, use a bit of imagination. And I did. I guess everyone did because from lineage to lineage you will see that the forms are completely different. The forms I learned do not look like those of Ip or others. It is unique to my own lineage. However, that is only the form, the weapons and basic principals are much the same. I think people like Mr. Hung were the benefactors of the forms. There again, speculation like everything else.
I think that the physics of the human body involved in WC might also be an addition made by the accrobats of the Red Boat troups. I think that is when it moved away from the snake crane aspects.

[Hendrik]

I really don't think in terms of snake and crane or shaolin or any of that stuff. so none of it seems to matter to me.
I think that Ng developed his tan sao system to where he was good at it. Legandary? I don't think the other forms came into being until others decided to train in it. Probably added as time went by. If you think of it, the names of the forms will tell you that. Sil Lim I was told meant, use a bit of imagination. And I did. I guess everyone did because from lineage to lineage you will see that the forms are completely different. The forms I learned do not look like those of Ip or others. It is unique to my own lineage. However, that is only the form, the weapons and basic principals are much the same. I think people like Mr. Hung were the benefactors of the forms. There again, speculation like everything else.
I think that the physics of the human body involved in WC might also be an addition made by the accrobats of the Red Boat troups. I think that is when it moved away from the snake crane aspects.

Jack,

It would be great if you could share your set with youtube.

[kentchang]

The history of any MA is always fascinating. One could find snake and crane in many kung fu and karate schools. The myth of Wing Chun is in this article.


武林史上方詠春與嚴詠春是兩位不同門派的武術大師，方詠春之福建永春白鶴拳是名譽福建省的白鶴 拳種。為何後 人誤傳福建永春白鶴拳與廣東詠春拳有關？其原因有三。其一，福建永春白鶴拳之永春是地方之名， 不是拳種。其 二，方詠春是人名不是拳種。其三，方詠春與嚴詠春，同名不同姓。两人拳種不同。白鶴拳就是白鶴 拳，詠春拳就 是詠春拳。但為何後人又誤傳詠春拳出自福建永春鶴拳？其中因為詠春拳手法有鹤形和蛇形之手法。 但鹤形和蛇形 手法均在中國很多門派都存在，這並不代表詠春拳與白鶴拳同源。以馮京作馬凉的错誤傳說在武林界 中实在举之不 盡，筆者是福建莆田白鶴拳師方洽庄後人。〈福建武林誌〉

In Martial Arts history, Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun are two different separate entities of Martial artists. Fong Wing Chun’s Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen is part of Fokien Counties White Crane Style type. Why is it then that future generations spread rumors that Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen and Canton’s Wing Chun Kuen have any correlations to one another? There are 3 specific reasons why this is so: Reason number 1, the Weng Chun in Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen is a name of a specific place. Not a specific martial arts style type. Reason number 2, Fong Wing Chun is a person’s name, not a specific martial arts style type. And reason number 3, Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun, both has the same First name but different last names. Both individuals have different martial arts style types. White Crane Kuen simply is White Crane, and Wing Chun Kuen simply is Wing Chun Kuen. Then why are people in future generations confused over the misconception that Wing Chun Kuen spawned from Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen? Because the inter-reasons indicate that Wing Chun Kuen’s hand tecniques contain those of Crane style and Snake style hand techniques. But Crane Style and Snake style hand techniques are existent in many martial arts forms within China. Therefore, it does not represent that Wing Chun Kuen and White Crane Kuen came from the same origin. There are numerous accounts that exist in the martial arts world such examples of mis-spread rumors of 馮京 miswritten as 馬凉. The author is Fokien 莆田 White Crane Boxer 方洽庄‘s successor’s. <Fokien Martial Arts Columnist>

[Hendrik]

The history of any MA is always fascinating. One could find snake and crane in many kung fu and karate schools. The myth of Wing Chun is in this article.



.............



In my opinion,

to compare one chinese martial art to other one,
one needs to take a look at 手法 hand technics。身功 body kung/ engine 。and 勢法 momentum style/ dynamic strucutre. all three in the same time.
adding with the chinese history and the location of the art. one then can see what is very likely.


the above article is obviously have not going through indepth investigation of the hand technics, body kung, and dynamic structure. not to mention the comparision of Kuen Kuit.





Wing Chun does origin from White Crane of Fujian.

1. the White Crane expert GM Lee Kong has published his article publicly on the evolution of Fujian White Crane.

2. I myself has compared the 1850 SLT kuen kuit with the 1700's White crane of Fujian classical writing. and there is matches.

to be specific, the pre 1800 White crane of Fujian technic ----- Zhao Yang sau and Zhao Yang Shih or the facing sun hand and facing sun momentum, is adapted in WCK.
this facing sun term existed in the Yik Kam 1850 SLT kuen kuit.






here is the description of the facing sun momentum

-------------------------

<白鶴仙師祖傳真法> 中的 <方七娘白鶴拳十五勢>，就載有 : [跌、砍拳…招陽、……]十五個勢法，並注明如何動作及攻防意義之所在。…….這十五個勢應為當時最早見之於拳譜中的勢法，當是當時 所傳教的。

比如十五勢拳譜中所寫： [招 (昭) 陽。白鶴拳法之五：凡拳起手，只要招 (昭)陽，無論他用何勢，可用此勢，大門放過，小門直入。蓋此勢兩手顧鼻面，短牙顧中攔切，戒分 腳退後。]
---------------

brief ranslate to


facing sun momentum is one of the earliest White Crane of fujian momentum style. it is the 5th within the early 15 momentum styles of Fang Chi Nian's white crane teaching.

Zhao Yang. the fifth of the white crane method. what ever momentum comes. one can apply this momentum sytle, let the frontal attack passed and directly attack him side way.





the following clip is a today's intepretation of the facing sun momentum in Wing Chun Kuen. see for yourself what it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u63OJRXyq68






So, if one dig deep one will see. it is not a matter of hand shape or hand technics. one needs to look into the hand technics, body engine, and momentum style.

[JPinAZ]

Jeebus Hendrick, what the heck are you even talking about??
And where did you get all this Shaolin and taan sau Ultimate crap from? Boy, when they let you out of the padded room, all he!! breaks loose doesn't it... :rolleyes:

[JPinAZ]

I really don't think in terms of snake and crane or shaolin or any of that stuff. so none of it seems to matter to me.

Haha, me neither. WCK is so much beyond this type of thinking IMO.


I think that Ng developed his tan sao system to where he was good at it. Legandary? I don't think the other forms came into being until others decided to train in it. Probably added as time went by. If you think of it, the names of the forms will tell you that. Sil Lim I was told meant, use a bit of imagination. And I did. I guess everyone did because from lineage to lineage you will see that the forms are completely different. The forms I learned do not look like those of Ip or others. It is unique to my own lineage. However, that is only the form, the weapons and basic principals are much the same. I think people like Mr. Hung were the benefactors of the forms. There again, speculation like everything else.

I would really enjoy seeing your forms. have you ever recorded them? I understand though if that is not in your interest.


I think that the physics of the human body involved in WC might also be an addition made by the accrobats of the Red Boat troups.

Interesting. Not sure I would agree 100% as there are lineages that do not trace themselves back through the Red Boat troupes.
HFY does not, yet much of what is taught in HFYWCK is very much based on understanding the physics of the human body. Our Sup Ming Dim (10 bright points) is key, or 'road-map', to learning and understanding how the various body parts can be aligned to achieve strong structure thru proper reference point in space.


I think that is when it moved away from the snake crane aspects.

I agree that WCK was a move away from these things like animal styles. I am sure snake and crane has influence in WCK, but so did many other styles/technologies of the time. In HFY we see eagle and dragon 'flavors' as well, among others. But none of them are the system themselves.

IMO, true understanding of WCK is that it was to move away from those things and focus more on science and physics for understanding how to operate/fight as a human being (as you mentioned), and not an animal - WCK is not an animal style system. So, anyone arguing that it is, is really living in the past by arguing a moot point and is really lost on what WCK truly is.

[Wayfaring]

In Martial Arts history, Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun are two different separate entities of Martial artists. Fong Wing Chun’s Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen is part of Fokien Counties White Crane Style type. Why is it then that future generations spread rumors that Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen and Canton’s Wing Chun Kuen have any correlations to one another? There are 3 specific reasons why this is so: Reason number 1, the Weng Chun in Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen is a name of a specific place. Not a specific martial arts style type. Reason number 2, Fong Wing Chun is a person’s name, not a specific martial arts style type. And reason number 3, Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun, both has the same First name but different last names. Both individuals have different martial arts style types. White Crane Kuen simply is White Crane, and Wing Chun Kuen simply is Wing Chun Kuen. Then why are people in future generations confused over the misconception that Wing Chun Kuen spawned from Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen? Because the inter-reasons indicate that Wing Chun Kuen’s hand tecniques contain those of Crane style and Snake style hand techniques. But Crane Style and Snake style hand techniques are existent in many martial arts forms within China. Therefore, it does not represent that Wing Chun Kuen and White Crane Kuen came from the same origin. There are numerous accounts that exist in the martial arts world such examples of mis-spread rumors of 馮京 miswritten as 馬凉. The author is Fokien 莆田 White Crane Boxer 方洽庄‘s successor’s. <Fokien Martial Arts Columnist>

Now this makes infinitely more sense than Hendrik's wildly extrapolated surmisings.

Snake and crane style hand movements are widely dispersed across many martial arts styles originating from China. To name a few - hung gar, lohan, 5 animals, northern longfist. Some of this is reflected in one of WCK's sister arts - weng chun.

As far as Hendrik's suggestions to look "deeper" into body engine and momentum style, and his supporting video using sifu Gary Lam's illustration of basically slipping a punch combined with traditional widespread Chinese 5 element terminology, that exists nowhere but in Hendrik's mind.

You can see similar types of body mechanics to what Hendrik shows in his SLT video where he does one-handed illustrations of flowing movements in sections of SLT - you can see that type of flow in mantis boxing and hung gar.

Gary Lam's illustration of slipping the first attack motion and intercepting the 2nd or 3rd is widely present in western boxing as well as muy thai.

[kentchang]

Originally Posted by Wayfaring
Now this makes infinitely more sense than Hendrik's wildly extrapolated surmisings.

Snake and crane style hand movements are widely dispersed across many martial arts styles originating from China. To name a few - hung gar, lohan, 5 animals, northern longfist. Some of this is reflected in one of WCK's sister arts - weng chun.

As far as Hendrik's suggestions to look "deeper" into body engine and momentum style, and his supporting video using sifu Gary Lam's illustration of basically slipping a punch combined with traditional widespread Chinese 5 element terminology, that exists nowhere but in Hendrik's mind.

You can see similar types of body mechanics to what Hendrik shows in his SLT video where he does one-handed illustrations of flowing movements in sections of SLT - you can see that type of flow in mantis boxing and hung gar.

Gary Lam's illustration of slipping the first attack motion and intercepting the 2nd or 3rd is widely present in western boxing as well as muy thai.

Hendrik almost always stammers when he talks about the history of WCK.

[kentchang]

Originally Posted by Hendrik
my interest in the history of WCK particulary the creation of SLT the long set in the red boat era, prio to the Wong Wah Boh/ Leung Jan breaking up the one long set to the three sets , is to be able to know what type of training and development is in the art and what is the result could be expected.

To a casual observer, your statement seems to be no big deal. However, it is important try to be objective when listening to someone. "Wong Wah Boh/ Leung Jan breaking up the one long set to the three sets" Did you make an inference from your imagination or did you get this story directly from Yik Kam? As a matter of fact, these three forms of SNT, CK, BJ are all found within many WCK families, including Wong Wah-Bo, Leung Yee-Tai, Dai Dong-Fang of Pow Fa Lien lineage etc. The problem has been fixed to Yik Kam's SLT, but not WCK completely.

In the history of WCK, how many WCK families have quarrels over this Omei chi gung exercises? Almost none! So what's Yik Kam's SLT exactly? No CK, no BJ, just some imcompete WCK techniques mixed with some Omei chi gung exercises. But you ignored this fact: Wong Wah-Bo and many other WCK ancestors got nothing to do with this Omei chi gung exercises, SLT at all.

[Hendrik]

"Wong Wah Boh/ Leung Jan breaking up the one long set to the three sets"




1. It has been confirm in this forum, by the decendent of Leung Jan lineage, on WWB/LJ breaking up a long set to make the three sets.


2. No one needs to agree with me. I am always open to everyone's ideas ; and welcome disagreement with me.

However,

I expect those who has different ideas provide trace able specific details such as I have done. from the snake and crane section, to emei snake engine, to the facing Sun momentum style of White Crane of Fujian.

Opinion without a traceable source such as the article you post above is a personal opinion. there is nothing wrong with that for everyone can have their opinion. however, when it gets into the research of tcma one needs the support traceable evidence.

IE:
1, snake and crane section is traceable in all wck lineage. one also sees Ip Man's and others lineages' signature in the snake section.

2, Zhao Yan ( facing sun momentum style of White Crane of Fujian ) is traceable in Yik Kam kuen kuit, Yik Kam SLT set, WCK woodern dummy set practice, applications such as in sifu Gary Lam's application demo.

3, The five finger tracing taiji technics of Emei 12 Zhuang very specifically, is trace able in Ku Lo Fung Family, YKS, Wong Yin Nim....ect lineages of WCK.


again, one doesnt have to buy what I brought up.


I am seriously waiting for different solution support by evidence in TCMA history to explain the above 3 issues and more.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Jack,

It would be great if you could share your set with youtube.

Hendrik, I don't have a video camera, but if I can come up with something and can manage to get something done I will try to put it on utube for you.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, I don't have a video camera, but if I can come up with something and can manage to get something done I will try to put it on utube for you.

Jack,

Thanks and appreciate!

It is a meaningful project because this preserve your line of art. And that is important.

[Lee Chiang Po]

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1153942]Haha, me neither. WCK is so much beyond this type of thinking IMO.



I would really enjoy seeing your forms. have you ever recorded them? I understand though if that is not in your interest.



Interesting. Not sure I would agree 100% as there are lineages that do not trace themselves back through the Red Boat troupes.
HFY does not, yet much of what is taught in HFYWCK is very much based on understanding the physics of the human body. Our Sup Ming Dim (10 bright points) is key, or 'road-map', to learning and understanding how the various body parts can be aligned to achieve strong structure thru proper reference point in space.



My reason for thinking acrobats is that one needs to have a very good understanding of the human physical dynamics in order to do some of the things they do. This would sort of explain why Wing Chun seems to be engineered by people of science and physics.
Wing Chun is just about the easiest thing to learn physically, and you can maintain it even into old age. Every move is actually natural to the human structure. You can naturally do more, and with greater accuracy and speed, when doing something that is completely natural to your own body movements.
Being perfectly honest, I know very little about the how and where of Wing Chun outside my own system. My dad taught many people as well as his own children. I have only passed it on to a hand full of people outside my son and grand children. I have only become aware of all the other lineages since signing on to this forum. I can immediately recognize Wing Chun when I see it, even if the sets are different. But, anything I say may not mean much.
As I told Hendrik, I will try to get a video camera and put up a clip of my sil lim set.

[Fa Xing]

Thanks Joy.
Personally I have never paid that much attention tot he history of ANY MA, perhaps because I know how "loose" many people are with their views of history of their own systems and how much gray area there truly is in EVERY MA system.
Also because what has been done before has nothing to do with what is being done now ( or lacktherof).
However I do know that for some this stuff is very important but I think that if it is that important then that it must be researched in the correct way.

This is so true, even in JKD there is deviation and it's only been around for less than 50 years and a few of Bruce's original students are still around. Luckily we are able to get multiple accounts to get a general sense of JKD history, but I can't imagine doing that for something that may or may not have happened over 200 years ago.

[kentchang]

Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Bo
If I remember correctly, My dad was born in 1880. He was old when I came along. In 1965 he died from diabetes at 85 years old. He was a Boxer in 1900 and barely missed the headsman. Later he fled the Canton area and went to Hong Kong in 49 to escape the Communists. From there he came to the states. He told me that he learned Hung Fa from ex-soldiers. They were working members of a tong gang. The stuff I related might or might not have been true, but it does make sense to me at least. These things he told me. Now I am old. Or getting old.


Originally Posted by Savi
I'm intrigued, Lee Chiang Po! From what I have learned of my kung fu family's history our 4th generation inheritor Hung Gun Biu Tong Zyu was the leader of the Hung Gun Wui during the mid 1850's. According to our history, he taught combat methods to his men which at the time he referred to as Hung Fa Kuen. During the 1870's, upon his retirement he bestowed the name of his family art, Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen.

After reading this thread I found some very interesting similarities from these non Yip Man WCK lineages. Both independently reported that their WCK lineages gave credit to Hung Fa Boxing. Specifically with the references about Hung Fa and WCK, these parallel accounts of wing chun history tend to be much more credible. No doubt these research sources can be considered more genuine for the project into the WCK history of the Red Flower Boxer society and Tan Sao Ng.

[Vajramusti]

I am not impressed with cherry picking approaches to history-wherein you begin with a preferred conclusion and then pick and choose evidence-often regarding opinions and lineage histories as evidence of a grand thesis or several theses..

Regarding slt, ck and bj--among advanced Ip Man lines those are stages of learning
as each stage is mastered. And BTW LJ was IM's sigung.

When I am working out by myself I often choose to do all three forms sequentially as one single form-no big deal,

You can master a text chapter by chapter until you learn the whole book.

This thread has snaked it's way into pits of pseudo histories. IMO of course.

joy chaudhuri

[imperialtaichi]

My teacher Master Leung extrapolated (laughingly) that Yim Wing Chun is actually Tan Sau Ng pretending to be a woman to avoid being caught. He presented a whole list of very convincing reasons at the time but I couldn't remember anything because we were all drunk :p

I love a good yarn. I don't really care whether they are true or not, as long as they are entertaining. It adds colour and sometimes even hidden meanings. I hate, however political stories tho (boring).

[CFT]

I don't know if the generation thing really matters when we are discussing Martial nicknames does it?? Just speculating. And FWIW 'Wu' is 5 too. So can anyone provide the Chinese characters for his name, like, anyone?

He is a mystery, as is this Tan Sau Ng 'legend' as I have heard that could have been a nickname for Ng Mui too, and 'he' could have been the first openly gay Monk.

And hasn't anyone heard the one about the opium den being the centre of ALL legends associated with Wing Chun?? And guess who owned an opium den?

For all we know Ng Jung So, Tan Sau Ng & Beggar So are the same person and that actually makes some sense I think ;)

If we are looking for facts, wasn't it the Yiu Family who housed Ng Jung So in his later years, like the Fungs did for Leung Jan? Ng Jung So even had kids, so there is every chance his family lives on to this day (and I will say the same for Wing Chun!)Is this just a pet theory of yours Spencer? Based on what? Ng Jung So is just another CHAN Wah Sun student, who features in the personal training history of Yip Man. I don't know why you need to dress him up in a semi-mythical figure's clothing?

Tan Sau Ng: 攤手五
Ng Jung So: 吳仲素

It was Ip Chun himself who dug up historical evidence of Cheung Ng (Tan Sau Ng) in the records of the Cantonese Opera.

[Graham H]

Is this just a pet theory of yours Spencer? Based on what? Ng Jung So is just another CHAN Wah Sun student, who features in the personal training history of Yip Man. I don't know why you need to dress him up in a semi-mythical figure's clothing?

Tan Sau Ng: 攤手五
Ng Jung So: 吳仲素

It was Ip Chun himself who dug up historical evidence of Cheung Ng (Tan Sau Ng) in the records of the Cantonese Opera.

Pet theories? Mythical figures? Spencer? Noooooooooooooooooooooooo (sarcasm)

GH

[LoneTiger108]

Is this just a pet theory of yours Spencer? Based on what?

Of course it is just made up dude. I was 'playing along' but it seems whatever I write some just take too seriously :D


Ng Jung So is just another CHAN Wah Sun student, who features in the personal training history of Yip Man.

Yes I know this. But he did run an opium den didn't he?

He also features in the personal training history of my own Sigung.

[Eric_H]

It was Ip Chun himself who dug up historical evidence of Cheung Ng (Tan Sau Ng) in the records of the Cantonese Opera.

CFT,

Do you have a source on that? First I'm hearing about it.

[Savi]

CFT is correct. I was told about that same fact (Ip Chun's reveal on "Cheung Ng") back in 1999/2000 by my Sifu.

[hunt1]

Stop before anyone gets carried away.

The first to mention Tan Sau Ng was Pan Nam. He told the story to Yip Chun. There is no evidence at all in the records that Tan Sau Ng even knew martial arts.

Pan Nam discovered the name in opera records as being a member of the opera troop and made the jump that since tan sau is a staple wing chun technique and since wing chun came from the opera boats that tan sau ng must be an early wing chun master.

Yip Chun stated that the Pan Nam story seemed much more plausible to him than the mythical nun story and there fore adopted the story. He even wrote this is one of his books.

Tan sau Ng could just as easily been recorded for his begging skills since tan sau can also refer to begging as in "palm up" and since Opera people were often also street performers much like you see in many cities with the guitar case open looking for tips. etc. Holding his palm out looking for a tip after a performance.

Either is just as likely since no other details were recorded in the records Pan Nam found.

[Savi]

Thanks for sharing that side of the coin Hunt1. I have no recollection of exactly how Ip Chun came to discover the mention of Cheung Ng but I do remember he came to knowing of it somehow.

While Pan Nam had knowledge of this person, how many other parties of the Red Boats have shared any knowledge/insights of Cheung Ng? According to HFYWC lore... He was not a beggar or cripple - but considering the background he is said to have from HFYWC Lore, that doesn't mean he didn't "act" like one either in disguise.

[Hendrik]

Stop before anyone gets carried away.

The first to mention Tan Sau Ng was Pan Nam. He told the story to Yip Chun. There is no evidence at all in the records that Tan Sau Ng even knew martial arts.

Pan Nam discovered the name in opera records as being a member of the opera troop and made the jump that since tan sau is a staple wing chun technique and since wing chun came from the opera boats that tan sau ng must be an early wing chun master.

Yip Chun stated that the Pan Nam story seemed much more plausible to him than the mythical nun story and there fore adopted the story. He even wrote this is one of his books.

Tan sau Ng could just as easily been recorded for his begging skills since tan sau can also refer to begging as in "palm up" and since Opera people were often also street performers much like you see in many cities with the guitar case open looking for tips. etc. Holding his palm out looking for a tip after a performance.

Either is just as likely since no other details were recorded in the records Pan Nam found.　

Hunt1,

The following confirm your post. It is Ip chun's idea based on Pan Nam.

葉問長子葉準根據佛山永春拳的彭南陳述及研究，提出與父親不同的版本：清雍正年間，湖北藝人張五擅長攤手（ 粵劇做手），人稱「攤手五」。因故從北京流亡至佛山，組織紅花會館，教授戲曲及武藝。其拳術已經初具詠春拳 的章法，經過近百年的流傳和發展，歷經嚴詠春、梁博儔、黃華寶、梁二娣等人的努力，詠春成為一套完整而成熟 的拳術，至梁贊始發揚光大[3]。

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/咏春拳


I think it is ok for anyone to have idea. as soon as they also provide a reason.

The issue needs to address here is Tan sau ng escape from Beijing to fut San. Then, how can an adult who is northen Chinese train create an southern tcma wing chun? Wing Chun is closer to other southern tcma then the northern tcma.

[Hendrik]

。后因义军人数激增,戏服不足，便一律以红巾扎头代替冠盔，故称红巾军。

http://www.foshanmuseum.com/wbzy/fssh_disp.asp?xsyj_ID=90


This is from the futsan museum. According to Chinese historical facts.

Here it address where the name of hung gan is from.

According to the museum, lee man mau lead the red boat uprising 1850. 　lee's army wearing opera costume as their uniform. Later when the followers increase drastically, they run out of costume. So, they make a rule of using the red bandana. Hung gan to replace the headwear or helmet . Thus, this army is called hung gan army.

[Hendrik]

***** 清雍正五年间，北京名伶张五，人称摊手五，因躲避清廷的追捕，化装易服逃亡来粤，寄居于佛山镇大基尾。为了 谋生，张五以京剧昆曲教授学徒。师徒们组成班子，到四乡演出，换一口饭吃。由于要经常外出演出，他们便寄居 于船上。而船又是主要的交通工具。为了让乡民在远处就得知有戏班到来，他们将船涂成红色，这和今天白色表示 医生、绿色表示邮差类似。于是，其后的戏班亦仿效其做法，所乘的船皆为红船。于是，“红船”便成了戏班的别 称；“红船子弟”便成为粤剧艺人的代称。
***** 今天，粤剧戏班外出演出已经不用坐红船了，但是，“红船”这一很特殊很美妙的名字则保留下来。今天，广东有 一个专门介绍和推广粤曲的网站，办得很红火，就叫做“棹红船粤曲网”，网友（即曲友）遍及全省甚至海外。网 络代替了船只，不能不说是时代的大进步啊！
******* 张五到佛山除了避难授徒，他还建立了“琼花会馆”。琼花会馆是粤剧界最早的戏行组织，所以佛山便被称为粤剧 的故乡。


琼花会馆在如今佛山市红强街汾江河边，会馆附近的水涉头边立有一石碑，上刻“琼花水涉”四字。艺伶就是在这 水涉上落戏箱，乘红船到各地演出的。
不过，我也看到另一段介绍，说“琼花会馆始建于明代万历年间。是最早的粤剧行业组织，为本地戏班艺伶排练、 教习、切磋艺术之地，也是当时戏班管理的机构。因供奉戏行祖师‘华光’，故又称之为琼花宫”。明万历比起清 雍正又要早百多年，不知哪个为准了。**


http://www.2499cn.com/yuequ/2.htm


This article present that Cheung Ng escape from beijing to futsan. And founded he fine jade association.

However, it says here there is a stone beside the fine jade association today that is saying the fine jade association is form in mid 1500. On Ming dynasty.



We know Cheung Ng exist and contribute to red boat opera. But there is no record on his martial art type and skill.

We know Hung gan army exist. But that is Lee Man mau's army in 1850. Which is a seperate case with Tan Sau Ng era.

We know Hung gan army is related with the taiping uprising and small knive association uprising in Shang hai, and red boat connection via yik kam salutation, as in my article the Shang hai connection.

However, we also know, there are multiple tcma style involve in the above uprising chain. The white crane of fujian being practice by lee man mau, the CLF supporting the taiping, and can be trace in the weng Chun kuen the sister art of wing Chun on board of the red boat.


It is much easy for us today to sort these out then hundred years ago .

So, what is the relationship between the uprising and WCK. That needs to be clear out. We don't want to make anyone wrong but seeing where things comes from.

[Vajramusti]

Stop before anyone gets carried away.

The first to mention Tan Sau Ng was Pan Nam. He told the story to Yip Chun. There is no evidence at all in the records that Tan Sau Ng even knew martial arts.

Pan Nam discovered the name in opera records as being a member of the opera troop and made the jump that since tan sau is a staple wing chun technique and since wing chun came from the opera boats that tan sau ng must be an early wing chun master.

Yip Chun stated that the Pan Nam story seemed much more plausible to him than the mythical nun story and there fore adopted the story. He even wrote this is one of his books.

Tan sau Ng could just as easily been recorded for his begging skills since tan sau can also refer to begging as in "palm up" and since Opera people were often also street performers much like you see in many cities with the guitar case open looking for tips. etc. Holding his palm out looking for a tip after a performance.

Either is just as likely since no other details were recorded in the records Pan Nam found.
-------------------------------------------------
Good post Hunt 1.
Joy

[JPinAZ]

We know Cheung Ng exist and contribute to red boat opera. But there is no record on his martial art type and skill.

It is well known by most WCK lineages that TSN passed WCK down thru the red boats (Wong Wah Bo). Others, like HFY, also trace their connection to TSN, only thru the Hung Fa Boxers (Hung Gun Biu) vs. directly thru the red boat opera. If I understand correctly, Jackie Lee also traces his lineage thru the Hung Fa boxers.
So, here are 2 different branches connecting to the same source of Tan Sau Ng. One line thru the WWB the other thru HGB.
Can we verifiably say WCK was TSN's only art? No. But it's pretty safe to say WCK was a primary one with much influence in the later uprising, and also where he got his nick name from.


We know Hung gan army exist. But that is Lee Man mau's army in 1850. Which is a seperate case with Tan Sau Ng era.

I think most agree that these are 2 different time periods. Not sure your point?



We know Hung gan army is related with the taiping uprising and small knive association uprising in Shang hai, and red boat connection via yik kam salutation, as in my article the Shang hai connection.

However, we also know, there are multiple tcma style involve in the above uprising chain. The white crane of fujian being practice by lee man mau, the CLF supporting the taiping, and can be trace in the weng Chun kuen the sister art of wing Chun on board of the red boat.

Ok. Not sure what you're getting at here either. Of course no one is saying WCK was the only art used by those active in the uprising if that's what you are trying to imply..


So, what is the relationship between the uprising and WCK. That needs to be clear out. We don't want to make anyone wrong but seeing where things comes from.

What are you talking about/asking here? You still don't see a connection of WCK to Red Boat Opera or Hung Mun?

[JPinAZ]

More on Hung Gun Biu from a recent HFY article that is going to appear in the latest issue of Kung Fu Magazine:

http://hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3239&p=20906#post20906

[Runlikehell]

Thank you for the article :)

[Wayfaring]

***** 清雍正五年间，北京名伶张五，人称摊手五，因躲避清廷的追捕，化装易服逃亡来粤，寄居于佛山镇大基尾。为了 谋生，张五以京剧昆曲教授学徒。师徒们组成班子，到四乡演出，换一口饭吃。由于要经常外出演出，他们便寄居 于船上。而船又是主要的交通工具。为了让乡民在远处就得知有戏班到来，他们将船涂成红色，这和今天白色表示 医生、绿色表示邮差类似。于是，其后的戏班亦仿效其做法，所乘的船皆为红船。于是，“红船”便成了戏班的别 称；“红船子弟”便成为粤剧艺人的代称。
***** 今天，粤剧戏班外出演出已经不用坐红船了，但是，“红船”这一很特殊很美妙的名字则保留下来。今天，广东有 一个专门介绍和推广粤曲的网站，办得很红火，就叫做“棹红船粤曲网”，网友（即曲友）遍及全省甚至海外。网 络代替了船只，不能不说是时代的大进步啊！
******* 张五到佛山除了避难授徒，他还建立了“琼花会馆”。琼花会馆是粤剧界最早的戏行组织，所以佛山便被称为粤剧 的故乡。


琼花会馆在如今佛山市红强街汾江河边，会馆附近的水涉头边立有一石碑，上刻“琼花水涉”四字。艺伶就是在这 水涉上落戏箱，乘红船到各地演出的。
不过，我也看到另一段介绍，说“琼花会馆始建于明代万历年间。是最早的粤剧行业组织，为本地戏班艺伶排练、 教习、切磋艺术之地，也是当时戏班管理的机构。因供奉戏行祖师‘华光’，故又称之为琼花宫”。明万历比起清 雍正又要早百多年，不知哪个为准了。**


For the non-Chinese readers, here is a translation of that article (from Bing Translator).

Cantonese Opera (song) the origin of the
--Red boat and eight for the children and Hall
　
Chen Xianqing
　


Cantonese Opera, also known as Guangdong drama or Cantonese drama, part of the PI system, affected by Kun, Gore, Han, Hui, Qin, Xiang and other types of moisture and impact, borrowed its singing has absorbed, Director of local music and folk song and sung in Cantonese dialect, and traditional Chinese culture can be traced, and special typical local characteristics. Cantonese Opera, Cantata is in the form of Cantonese Opera.
Guangdong is located in the South, historically, especially in feudal times, Guangdong economic and cultural backwardness in central China, it was no surprise. The song and Yuan dynasties, Opera has developed in the North and at the prevalence of Guangdong is still the land of the huangman, I am afraid, is "all the year round not heard sound of music". Song Mo and the late Ming, foreign invasion, Zhongyuan people lots to Lingnan asylum migration, Guangdong was many people, and culture in the North were followed there.
During the five years of the Qing dynasty, a famous actor in Beijing Friday, five person threw up his hands, Chase fleeing Qing, fled to Guangdong cosmetic clothing, staying in town based in Foshan. To earn a living, Zhang Wu taught in Peking Opera Opera apprenticeship. Prentice make up the team, to the suburbs show, for rice to eat. Because you want to go out performances, they are alien on board. And the ship is the main means of transport. Learned that the troupe comes to villagers in the distance, they will ship painted red, and white doctors, green indicates that the Mailman is similar today. So, the subsequent theatrical troupe to follow its practice, in which ships are red boat. Thus, "red boat" became the alias of the troupe; "children of red boat" would become the alternative name of Cantonese Opera artists.
Today, the Cantonese opera troupe out performances have not sat red boat, however, the "red boat" of this very special, very beautiful name is preserved. Today, the canton has a dedicated presentation and promotion of Cantonese Opera website, does it fire, is called the "Cantonese Opera oar red boat network", friends (song) all over the province and even overseas. Network instead of a vessel, say that it is a great improvement in the era of Ah!
Zhang Wu to Foshan, in addition to the refuge shoutu, he also established "the flowers Hall". Play line and flowers Hall is the oldest Opera territories in organizations, Foshan is known as the home of Cantonese Opera. Flowers Hall in Foshan red power street edge of the fen River, near the center of water involving head set with a stone tablet, engraved with "flowers of water involved" four characters. Art is resourceful in this water fell on the play in question box, take the red boat to performances throughout. However, I also see another section of the introduction, says, "and flowers Hall was built in the Ming dynasty Wanli. Is the first Cantonese Opera industry organization for local troupe resourceful rehearsals, art teachers, compitetion of art, is when the troupe management institutions. Dedicated to play line of Patriarchs ' huaguang ', so it is also known as Joan flower Palace ". Ming Wanli emperor Yongzheng of the Qing dynasty and early hundred years, I do not know which prevail.
Flowers Hall established, other halls are established, however, the scale is less than flowers Hall. Foshan Chung-yi, according to the log records: "in the town hall where the 37, magnificent flowers Hall building, Hall of contraction. "Flowers Hall area ratio Foshan ancestral temple was large, and four large columns at the entrance, there is also a pavilion. Foshan an idolatrous procession, for the time being, necessary for every God Festival staged Opera, has a song in zhuzhi poems describes this event in the Qing dynasty: "Pear Garden dance game, amidst the bustling, red sand ship late, but Tian Kuang Festival year after year, thousands of people around to watch flowers". "Thousands of people around to watch flowers", beyond rhyme needs should also emphasize "flowers Hall" at the time.
In addition to the large, then Joan Flower Club "power" is also very strong, it was a draw and the authorities of Guangdong, Guangxi, Cantonese Opera industry, do Wen Guangxin now part of the functions of the Council. Such as a copyright problem, which the troupe lined up for the new play to Club play once, after getting approval to perform, not stealing peer performance exhaust free content; there are venue dispute problem, if two troupe to a site at performances, it is necessary to rely on Association to coordinate.
Cantonese people often said "eight and Club", then what is the "eight"? The original, you can find source and flowers Hall. As the Opera Guild, flowers Hall has a strict management system, Hall, Interior guard and, Siu, Hing and, fuhe, Xinhe, Yungho, Duc Hoa, puhe etc eight Church, respectively, administer in a unified way belongs to the Congregation. The "eight and fame" should be regarded as different eight theatrical troupe, should also form a variety of styles and genres.
Today, flowers Hall is still in Foshan? It is a pity, of Foshan in late Qing and flowers Hall banned because of Cantonese Opera artists of the uprising, and resourceful people are not permitted to play Opera, flowers Hall is no longer running, and later a character in drama of Cantonese Opera kuangxinhua and others to comply with her wishes, yellow sand built in Guangzhou "eight and Hall". Also requires establishment of a new club must than all firms Trade Union Hall to the magnificent Guangzhou, to let the world recognition of Cantonese Opera, Cantonese Opera proud! Since then, Foshan and flowers Hall gradually declining and dilapidated, has ceased to exist. Until now, at the Museum of Foshan of Guangdong Opera, was a problem "and flowers Hall" four characters of the new Memorial, in remembrance of Joan Flower Club that year's brilliant.
Guangzhou's "eight and Club" has not completed? Really kuangxinhua advocate, Bank-funded effort, built in the Qing dynasty to the 15 year 1889, the site of yellow sand in Guangzhou. "Eight and" II word of meaning, apart from above of explained, due to new of construction, and more has a explained: "eight" word meaning means on line of people, "people" Word above separated is "eight" Word, "and" who harmony, working together with, created Opera new world, two species meaning, are stressed a "and" Word, and for your, and and for Shang, for play line past scholars ' enjoyment of essence is located.
　　How well new Hall built? According to historical records, the building was very grand indeed but also derived from a legendary story.
For lining up the Hall, the door must be high enough and broad enough, but to do so, we must first find such large wood, but this one piece of wood it is hard to find, otherwise you can only spell pieces of wood, but they did not want to use to spell out the door, for which is vexing, head, no response. A night, China Light master to head reported dream, said a Department has giant wood may for door, so second days morning head on to first division pointing of local a see, missing what trees, only see a large time, this thought dreams for virtual, later he and wanted to, will to Tibetan in time under, so life people pumping dry time, really in dries up of Riverbed lying with a large cedar, on trees in the of Wei husband has "thousand years pine, and Wan Nianbai" of said, this huge a cedar, is rare. Yellow sand "eight and Club" the door is made of cedar, it is higher than the gate of Guangzhou Chen ancestral temple also, thick, heavy, and later Japan's invasion of China, Guangzhou aircraft bombing, Sands was razed, "eight and Club" will not be spared, but the fact that two Cedar door, remain firm, non-destructive nickels. In 1946, the Cantonese Opera community in Henning road reconstruction of the "eight and Hall". Because Henning road "eight and Club" was expedient Club, place is small, doesn't fit these two doors, and the two doors to the street after Henning road reconstruction "Luang Hall". During the cultural revolution, the two door was regarded as the "Four Olds", abandoned the dark corner, again as a bypass for trucks up and down, and be extremely heavy weight. After the cultural revolution, Gates began have returned. Pitch dark door has undergone many vicissitudes, has remained strong as ever, actor or actress to this visit, there will always be a dash lamented.
Now rebuilt eight and Guild, vermilion gates restart, for many years opening, interested people can tour inside, but also a number of Opera enthusiasts were there to participate in "private group", to show their singing.
　

Hendrik, I know the readability of this translation is poor. Can you point out exactly where Tan Sau Ng appears in it? Thanks.

[Hendrik]

For the non-Chinese readers, here is a translation of that article (from Bing Translator).

Cantonese Opera (song) the origin of the
--Red boat and eight for the children and Hall
　
Chen Xianqing
　


Cantonese Opera, also known as Guangdong drama or Cantonese drama, part of the PI system, affected by Kun, Gore, Han, Hui, Qin, Xiang and other types of moisture and impact, borrowed its singing has absorbed, Director of local music and folk song and sung in Cantonese dialect, and traditional Chinese culture can be traced, and special typical local characteristics. Cantonese Opera, Cantata is in the form of Cantonese Opera.
Guangdong is located in the South, historically, especially in feudal times, Guangdong economic and cultural backwardness in central China, it was no surprise. The song and Yuan dynasties, Opera has developed in the North and at the prevalence of Guangdong is still the land of the huangman, I am afraid, is "all the year round not heard sound of music". Song Mo and the late Ming, foreign invasion, Zhongyuan people lots to Lingnan asylum migration, Guangdong was many people, and culture in the North were followed there.
During the five years of the Qing dynasty, a famous actor in Beijing Friday, five person threw up his hands, Chase fleeing Qing, fled to Guangdong cosmetic clothing, staying in town based in Foshan. To earn a living, Zhang Wu taught in Peking Opera Opera apprenticeship. Prentice make up the team, to the suburbs show, for rice to eat. Because you want to go out performances, they are alien on board. And the ship is the main means of transport. Learned that the troupe comes to villagers in the distance, they will ship painted red, and white doctors, green indicates that the Mailman is similar today. So, the subsequent theatrical troupe to follow its practice, in which ships are red boat. Thus, "red boat" became the alias of the troupe; "children of red boat" would become the alternative name of Cantonese Opera artists.
Today, the Cantonese opera troupe out performances have not sat red boat, however, the "red boat" of this very special, very beautiful name is preserved. Today, the canton has a dedicated presentation and promotion of Cantonese Opera website, does it fire, is called the "Cantonese Opera oar red boat network", friends (song) all over the province and even overseas. Network instead of a vessel, say that it is a great improvement in the era of Ah!
Zhang Wu to Foshan, in addition to the refuge shoutu, he also established "the flowers Hall". Play line and flowers Hall is the oldest Opera territories in organizations, Foshan is known as the home of Cantonese Opera. Flowers Hall in Foshan red power street edge of the fen River, near the center of water involving head set with a stone tablet, engraved with "flowers of water involved" four characters. Art is resourceful in this water fell on the play in question box, take the red boat to performances throughout. However, I also see another section of the introduction, says, "and flowers Hall was built in the Ming dynasty Wanli. Is the first Cantonese Opera industry organization for local troupe resourceful rehearsals, art teachers, compitetion of art, is when the troupe management institutions. Dedicated to play line of Patriarchs ' huaguang ', so it is also known as Joan flower Palace ". Ming Wanli emperor Yongzheng of the Qing dynasty and early hundred years, I do not know which prevail.
Flowers Hall established, other halls are established, however, the scale is less than flowers Hall. Foshan Chung-yi, according to the log records: "in the town hall where the 37, magnificent flowers Hall building, Hall of contraction. "Flowers Hall area ratio Foshan ancestral temple was large, and four large columns at the entrance, there is also a pavilion. Foshan an idolatrous procession, for the time being, necessary for every God Festival staged Opera, has a song in zhuzhi poems describes this event in the Qing dynasty: "Pear Garden dance game, amidst the bustling, red sand ship late, but Tian Kuang Festival year after year, thousands of people around to watch flowers". "Thousands of people around to watch flowers", beyond rhyme needs should also emphasize "flowers Hall" at the time.
In addition to the large, then Joan Flower Club "power" is also very strong, it was a draw and the authorities of Guangdong, Guangxi, Cantonese Opera industry, do Wen Guangxin now part of the functions of the Council. Such as a copyright problem, which the troupe lined up for the new play to Club play once, after getting approval to perform, not stealing peer performance exhaust free content; there are venue dispute problem, if two troupe to a site at performances, it is necessary to rely on Association to coordinate.
Cantonese people often said "eight and Club", then what is the "eight"? The original, you can find source and flowers Hall. As the Opera Guild, flowers Hall has a strict management system, Hall, Interior guard and, Siu, Hing and, fuhe, Xinhe, Yungho, Duc Hoa, puhe etc eight Church, respectively, administer in a unified way belongs to the Congregation. The "eight and fame" should be regarded as different eight theatrical troupe, should also form a variety of styles and genres.
Today, flowers Hall is still in Foshan? It is a pity, of Foshan in late Qing and flowers Hall banned because of Cantonese Opera artists of the uprising, and resourceful people are not permitted to play Opera, flowers Hall is no longer running, and later a character in drama of Cantonese Opera kuangxinhua and others to comply with her wishes, yellow sand built in Guangzhou "eight and Hall". Also requires establishment of a new club must than all firms Trade Union Hall to the magnificent Guangzhou, to let the world recognition of Cantonese Opera, Cantonese Opera proud! Since then, Foshan and flowers Hall gradually declining and dilapidated, has ceased to exist. Until now, at the Museum of Foshan of Guangdong Opera, was a problem "and flowers Hall" four characters of the new Memorial, in remembrance of Joan Flower Club that year's brilliant.
Guangzhou's "eight and Club" has not completed? Really kuangxinhua advocate, Bank-funded effort, built in the Qing dynasty to the 15 year 1889, the site of yellow sand in Guangzhou. "Eight and" II word of meaning, apart from above of explained, due to new of construction, and more has a explained: "eight" word meaning means on line of people, "people" Word above separated is "eight" Word, "and" who harmony, working together with, created Opera new world, two species meaning, are stressed a "and" Word, and for your, and and for Shang, for play line past scholars ' enjoyment of essence is located.
　　How well new Hall built? According to historical records, the building was very grand indeed but also derived from a legendary story.
For lining up the Hall, the door must be high enough and broad enough, but to do so, we must first find such large wood, but this one piece of wood it is hard to find, otherwise you can only spell pieces of wood, but they did not want to use to spell out the door, for which is vexing, head, no response. A night, China Light master to head reported dream, said a Department has giant wood may for door, so second days morning head on to first division pointing of local a see, missing what trees, only see a large time, this thought dreams for virtual, later he and wanted to, will to Tibetan in time under, so life people pumping dry time, really in dries up of Riverbed lying with a large cedar, on trees in the of Wei husband has "thousand years pine, and Wan Nianbai" of said, this huge a cedar, is rare. Yellow sand "eight and Club" the door is made of cedar, it is higher than the gate of Guangzhou Chen ancestral temple also, thick, heavy, and later Japan's invasion of China, Guangzhou aircraft bombing, Sands was razed, "eight and Club" will not be spared, but the fact that two Cedar door, remain firm, non-destructive nickels. In 1946, the Cantonese Opera community in Henning road reconstruction of the "eight and Hall". Because Henning road "eight and Club" was expedient Club, place is small, doesn't fit these two doors, and the two doors to the street after Henning road reconstruction "Luang Hall". During the cultural revolution, the two door was regarded as the "Four Olds", abandoned the dark corner, again as a bypass for trucks up and down, and be extremely heavy weight. After the cultural revolution, Gates began have returned. Pitch dark door has undergone many vicissitudes, has remained strong as ever, actor or actress to this visit, there will always be a dash lamented.
Now rebuilt eight and Guild, vermilion gates restart, for many years opening, interested people can tour inside, but also a number of Opera enthusiasts were there to participate in "private group", to show their singing.
　

Hendrik, I know the readability of this translation is poor. Can you point out exactly where Tan Sau Ng appears in it? Thanks.

You need to make sure you have a proper input and output before look for Tan Sau Ng.


Feed the following section to the translator.

清雍正五年间，北京名伶张五，人称摊手五，因躲避清廷的追捕，化装易服逃亡来粤，寄居于佛山镇 大基尾。为了 谋生，张五以京剧昆曲教授学徒。师徒们组成班子，到四乡演出，换一口饭吃。

[Wayfaring]

You need to make sure you have a proper input and output before look for Tan Sau Ng.


Feed the following section to the translator.

清雍正五年间，北京名伶张五，人称摊手五，因躲避清廷的追捕，化装易服逃亡来粤，寄居于佛山镇 大基尾。为了 谋生，张五以京剧昆曲教授学徒。师徒们组成班子，到四乡演出，换一口饭吃。

OK I see. Here's Google's Translator:

Qing Emperor Yongzheng five years, Beijing Opera stars Zhang five-person Tanshou five, due to the Qing court to avoid pursuit, fled Laiyue easy to wear make-up, dwelling in the town of Foshan large base end. To make a living, Professor Zhang Kun Opera apprentice to five. Mentoring are integral team to perform the four townships, for food to eat.

Here's Bing's:

During the five years of the Qing dynasty, a famous actor in Beijing Friday, five person threw up his hands, Chase fleeing Qing, fled to Guangdong cosmetic clothing, staying in town based in Foshan. To earn a living, Zhang Wu taught in Peking Opera Opera apprenticeship. Prentice make up the team, to the suburbs show, for rice to eat.

Apparently Tan Sau Ng is represented as a Beijing Opera star / famous actor named "Zhang five-person Tanshou five" or "Friday, five person thew up his hands".

So is what you are saying that Tan Sau Ng was a famous actor in Beijing, fled the Qing army, and took up residence in Foshan?

Interesting what the hack translator engines bring up - the "throw up his hands" and the number "5" could possibly have some indication of the tan sau WCK technique. That's just showing alternative possible translations of the guys name, right?

I don't know that you could really try and prove anything regarding the guy's WCK background and training based on the fact he was a Beijing opera star and fled to Foshan. The opera in Beijing offered quite an opportunity and I'm sure many of the opera stars may not have been born there. You probably could surmise that the guy had a pretty good voice, though. A "Pavarotti" of sorts. Was he a tenor or a baritone? Also a possibility is the guy escaped the Qinq disguised as a beggar to flee from Beijing to Foshan, thus supporting some of the other folklore.

So does this little piece of information inspire some of the WCK TCMA traditionalists to get some opera training? Hone your skills to sing "The Barber of Seville" while deflecting incoming punches? ;)

[CFT]

Machine translations are ker-rap!


清雍正五年间The 5th year of the Qing Emperor Yongzheng's reign

北京名伶张五Famous Beijing actor Cheung Ng (Zhang Wu)

人称摊手五Called 'Tan Sau Ng' (Ng being his name, tan sau his special characteristic)

[LoneTiger108]

So does this little piece of information inspire some of the WCK TCMA traditionalists to get some opera training? Hone your skills to sing "The Barber of Seville" while deflecting incoming punches? ;)

I would consider asking students that have either actively performed for their Sifu or even trained in an 'Operatic' Wing Chun lineage, because these will be the people who may know a little more about the influences the Red Boat people had on the Wing Chun at the time. And this does include non-WCK people.

As much as I have time to listen to others who are directly linked to the Hung Suen Hay Ban Chung, I am more interested in seeing staged presentations of their interpretation!! This should be 'natural' for these students, as it will be in their practise and curriculums. There is no hiding 'secrets' on stage and no second chance to make your favourite technique work. A different physical pressure than a fight, maybe, but very very similar psychology imho.

From my own experiences, this 'live' demonstration of ability and skill is a much better way for us all to exchange and share :)

[Marcelo-RJ]

I guess everyone did because from lineage to lineage you will see that the forms are completely different.

Sometimes you'll see this happening within the same lineage. See TWC's and HFY's SNT and Advanced Siu Nin Tau.
BTW, Hung Fa Yi's advanced Siu Nin Tau changes from time to time. I myself have learnt 4 different versions, with changes in the order of movements execution included, in the last six years (before that, I knew only the regular SNT).

[Marcelo-RJ]

Sometimes HFY story gets much too much complex for my poor understanding, even being a HFY practitioner myself.

If we look into the first articles about HFY history, we'll find references about the "one" Tan Sau that gave such a nickname to Cheung Ng. Thus, Cheung Ng was his name and Tan Sau Ng his nickname, because of that "one" Tan Sau.

Now, it's "five" Tan Sau, and the "Ng" is no more his name, but a part of his nickname.

After all, what's the right information according to HFY's lore?

[JPinAZ]

Sometimes you'll see this happening within the same lineage. See TWC's and HFY's SNT and Advanced Siu Nin Tau.
BTW, Hung Fa Yi's advanced Siu Nin Tau changes from time to time. I myself have learnt 4 different versions, with changes in the order of movements execution included, in the last six years (before that, I knew only the regular SNT).

HFY has only 'one' SNT. The variances you might see will depend on what is being focused on in training at that time. Say you have been to X workshops focusing on X different subjects, certain portions of the form can be 'performed' differently to help the student understand and drill what is being focused on. This is easy to see if you look at the form conceptually vs. just seeing the techniques themselves.

When looking at the out-to-in ending part of the 'heun sau' portion of section one, one might say "hey, that used to be a faat sau to gaan sau!" and the answer might be "it is faat sau, if we are focusing on faat sau kiu sau, but now we are focusing on [fill in the blank] so it is a different shape (say leet sau instead of faat sau), but same idea". The concepts don't change, just the application within the context of what is trying to be taught at that moment - and this can easily be reflected in the from.

Sometimes a SLT solo drill can be made to help further understanding. I still hear people say "but this is different than the from", again, same reasoning. What is it you are trying to learn at that time? Techniques, or something deeper :)

[Savi]

Tan Sao Ng/Cheung Ng (攤手五, 張五) are both nicknames of Cheung Hin (張興), just as Hung Gun Biu/Chan Biu (紅巾彪, 陳彪) are nicknames of Chu Tien Jow (朱天就). Both men of their respective eras (1730's and 1850's) were high ranking leaders of the Hung Gun Wui, and had different aliases because of the nature of their positions.

In HFY, many things may seem to change on the outside, and at times (and as said before) the forms are dynamic and may change to reflect the tools and material you train at given points in time. That is also an example of HFY's philosophy of Tien Yan Dei Saam Mo Kiu at work. However confusing that may be on the surface, the core of the art has always remained in tact. What is important is understanding what you are expressing in the form and knowing the software that drives each action.

[Wayfaring]

Tan Sao Ng/Cheung Ng (攤手五, 張五) are both nicknames of Cheung Hin (張興)

Well, that's kind of cool to look at. Both the "Tan Sau" and the "5" are elements of a nickname.

Well, that's one thing that TCMA WCK doesn't have enough of. Nicknames.

Do any of you have nicknames? Those that you care to share and are appropriate for internet viewing?

[LoneTiger108]

Do any of you have nicknames? Those that you care to share and are appropriate for internet viewing?

My Username here is my own invention, but yep! I do have a 'Chinese Nickname' given to me by my Sifu as do many others.

[Savi]

Well, that's kind of cool to look at. Both the "Tan Sau" and the "5" are elements of a nickname.

Well, that's one thing that TCMA WCK doesn't have enough of. Nicknames.

Do any of you have nicknames? Those that you care to share and are appropriate for internet viewing?According to HFY lore, Tan Sao Ng is more than just a nickname, but a reference to the science of HFYWCK. Whilst the Tan Sao can be viewed as a single technique from one POV, or 5 different Tan Sao techniques from another POV, it can also be said to be both from a third POV as 5 specific ways to use the Tan Sao. Based on the software of HFYWCK, a combination of HFY's Centerline Theory, Five Line Theory, Box Theory, and Tin Yan Dei, all give rise to five specific actions behind the usage of the HFY Tan, which is all driven by the use and awareness of space and the terms of engagement.

Extra: One is driven the Centerline, two are driven by HFY's Five Line Theory, and the other two are driven by HFY's Box Theory, all share the HFY Tin Yan Dei Concept.

[Marcelo-RJ]

Thank you, Savi and JPinAZ, for the requested info.
I was told by Sifu Meng and GM Gee, more than once, about how the HFY forms are adaptable to the technique that is being focused at a particular moment.

However, that's not what I was referring to. I've seen different SNT's in my HFY training - one "regular" (without the animals section) and other "advanced" (with the animals section). And I've also seen GM Gee practicing and teaching some movements in different orders at different times.

As to Cheung Hin etc: do you guys have access to any concrete artefact or are those articles written according to GM Gee's oral account only? Is there, by any means, a possibility that, from now on, verifiable/objective data and oral tradition be distinguished from each other when new info comes out from the HFY school of WC? Is there a chance that the upcoming articles and other writtings by the HFY staff will come out in a more academic fashion?

Thanks again for your time and kindness.

All the best!

[Savi]

Thank you, Savi and JPinAZ, for the requested info.
I was told by Sifu Meng and GM Gee, more than once, about how the HFY forms are adaptable to the technique that is being focused at a particular moment.

However, that's not what I was referring to. I've seen different SNT's in my HFY training - one "regular" (without the animals section) and other "advanced" (with the animals section). And I've also seen GM Gee practicing and teaching some movements in different orders at different times.I am unfamiliar with what you are referring to in terms of "animals" within the HFY SNT form.


As to Cheung Hin etc: do you guys have access to any concrete artefact or are those articles written according to GM Gee's oral account only? Is there, by any means, a possibility that, from now on, verifiable/objective data and oral tradition be distinguished from each other when new info comes out from the HFY school of WC? Is there a chance that the upcoming articles and other writtings by the HFY staff will come out in a more academic fashion?

Thanks again for your time and kindness.

All the best!I cannot speak to any future publications. Everything I have shared to date is based on direct teachings.

[Marcelo-RJ]

I am unfamiliar with what you are referring to in terms of "animals" within the HFY SNT form.

Last portion: Tan Kiu, Eagle Bong Sau, Crane Bong Sau, Dragon Claw. Those hands and shapes were not there until 2006.

BTW, does your last statement mean that everything written (at least by yourself) about HFY WC up to this date is based on oral accounts/teachings only?

[Savi]

Last portion: Tan Kiu, Eagle Bong Sau, Crane Bong Sau, Dragon Claw. Those hands and shapes were not there until 2006. The third section of HFYSNT contain those hands, Eagle and Crane Bong Sao and Dragon Claw. Section 2 contains Phoenix Eye fists. What has been taught over the years is a reflection of the Saam Mo Kiu philosophy, as I stated before. The aspects of those specific hands are indicators of the system as oppsosed to san sau learning format.


BTW, does your last statement mean that everything written (at least by yourself) about HFY WC up to this date is based on oral accounts/teachings only?Much of what I write and share with the public revolves around the science, philosophy, culture, and history, of HFYWCK. More so than anything else what I write are based from personal experiences of the science.

[Savi]

Another interesting note since we are on the topic of Siu Nim Tao and Tan Sao Ng is that the 5 aforementioned Tan in HFYWCK are all contained within and throughout all 3 sections of the HFY SNT form.

The Hou Kuit of this system component is called HFY Five Tan Sao Bai Jong Faat, and centers around how to use the Tan Sao based on HFY's Wing Chun Formula.

[duende]

Last portion: Tan Kiu, Eagle Bong Sau, Crane Bong Sau, Dragon Claw. Those hands and shapes were not there until 2006.

BTW, does your last statement mean that everything written (at least by yourself) about HFY WC up to this date is based on oral accounts/teachings only?

Hey Marcelo...

Who are you trying to be here??? The expert or the novice??

First you make claims about our advanced SNT form, and then you ask the most basic rudementary question about our Hou Chun San Sau (face to face/hand's on) teaching method???

Doesn't make sense really. Where are you trying to go here?

Fwiw, Hok Bong (Crane Bong Sau) was among the first techniques I drilled. Same for Dragon claw. It's one of the first skill challenges we use to test Tan Sau structure.

Don't be upset by what you don't know. Instead, Appreciate what you do know.

:)

Now back to self-imposed exile.

[Eric_H]

Now that I have had a chance to train under my Sifu's roof directly, as well as meet many of his students from the 1980's to today I can tell you that, yes, we do have two different Siu Nim Tao forms going all the way back. The Advanced Siu Nim Tao form was (and still is) taught to people who were accepted as core students or disciples of the system - people who were accepted by our teacher for their loyalty, and commitment to the system beyond just an average student. Basic Siu Nim Tao was taught to people who were just passing through or regular students.

In the last few years, our teacher has decided to open up Advanced Siu Nim Tao to everyone, but we still do teach the basic Siu Nim Tao version to beginners or people who cannot make many classes. It is much easier to learn and still gives students a sense of the Wing Chun "Hardware" by primary focusing on Hung Fa Yi's 4 gate theory. In comparison, Advanced Siu Nim tao focuses more on centerline/box theory/tien yan dei in addition to the 4 gate theory.

[Savi]

Indeed Eric. Good post, and in addition to that, the HFY (Advanced) SNT comprises heavily on the tech behind the Kiu Sao-Chi Kiu-Chi Sao platform. It is no simple task to complete and is quite extensive.

I teach both basic and advanced SNT forms with my group. Is it confusing? Not in the least.

[Eric_H]

Indeed Eric. Good post, and in addition to that, the HFY (Advanced) SNT comprises heavily on the tech behind the Kiu Sao-Chi Kiu-Chi Sao platform. It is no simple task to complete and is quite extensive.


True enuff, hope we get to work on it more at the next seminar!

[Marcelo-RJ]

Hey Marcelo...
Who are you trying to be here??? The expert or the novice??

Hey Alex, long time no speak!

I'm not trying anything, but understanding some things I haven't understood yet.
Sometimes it's hard to figure out what's going on, for simple questions are taken for attacks and searching for some answers is taken for having "hidden agenda" within our HFY family.

However, I've been into it for the last 8 years and people down here make questions all the time.

That's it.

See, I made a simple statement: HFY and TWC have both regular and advanced SNT forms.

And, yes, you told eagle and dragon were drilled long ago, but what I say is that those hands are not in the "regular" SNT.

Do I need to be an expert to make such a statement, brother?

Now, since HFY forms change according to the training focus (no question), is it correct to state that what is "unchangeble" in HFY are the concepts + principles and their application to the technical training? I mean, the shapes may change, but the principles and concepts are always behind them and giving them the HFY "signature"?

[Marcelo-RJ]

Eric, thank you for the info you provided on basic and advanced SNT forms.
I wish you all the best in your journeys under GM Garrett Gee's guidance.
Be well, brother!

[LoneTiger108]

It is interesting to see (again) how the HFY guys discuss and learn their SLT and hearing the term 'advanced' SLT does bring a smile to my face.

I think it's great that you have good progression within the HFY system, but I would also suggest being careful about what you call 'advanced'. Back when I first learnt the SLT form and then went on stage to demonstrate for my Sifu it was suggested by the general WCK population that we were in touch with that what we were doing was too advanced, and to some it was unrecognizable as Wing Chun.

Of course, I had no idea what they were talking about because this was simply how I had learnt the form!! Now, after being outside the house for a while I have seen why it was thought of as advanced. I did learn the same too at the beginning, but it developed pretty quickly.

On a side note, we had a level by level learning process that literally changed the look and feel of the SLT but the methods themselves remained. My Sigung was a very proud Ip Man representative too, and although he had access to many other lineages and ideas, he insisted to his eldest students that all this knowledge was in Ip Mans Wing Chun. It just depends on how and when you learnt from him.

[Savi]

The hardware and the software of the system are intertwined. This means the exclusion of specific concepts/theories/principles will also affect the expression of the forms.

The shapes, structures, and mechanics are defined by the HFY Sup Ming Dim and the HFY Formula. The HFY Sup Ming Dim and the HFY Formula are two different things, but one cannot be done without the other.

The use of the term "Advanced" with regard to HFY's SNT form references the comprehensive system approach of the art, as opposed to a less stringent san sau format for training. HFY's Advanced SNT form is an accurate reflection of the more extensive training layers of the art. While the general public will be unfamiliar with it, it is what it is. Back in 2007 I had the pleasure of demonstrating it to a small Wing Chun group in Europe at a restaurant, and upon comparing their form to HFY's the response was well received.

[LoneTiger108]

The shapes, structures, and mechanics are defined by the HFY Sup Ming Dim and the HFY Formula.

I have heard this mentioned before in HFY but what does it translate as? 10 Bright Points? Or something similar? And the HFY Formula?

Obviously I don't expect an in depth answer here, just a simple overview would be good for me to get to grips with.

I was taught a 10 level method of training Wing Chun.


Back in 2007 I had the pleasure of demonstrating it to a small Wing Chun group in Europe at a restaurant, and upon comparing their form to HFY's the response was well received.

It's always good to find some impressionable students, as I too have had many encounters like this in my own Flystudio and beyond. I view the experiences as good for both parties. I like to know what people have, and show what I do too and as long as people have an open mind and patience to listen to explanations I have never had a bad exchange yet!

[Savi]

Yes, HFY Sup Ming Dim (红花義十明點) means Red Flower Righteous Ten Bright Points. Nice aim there! It refers to the geometric mapping of the human skeleton in accordance with and consideration for each of the three dimensions of space. 3 points for height, 5 for width, and 2 for depth. Each point of reference coincides with the human form.

The HFY Wing Chun Formula defines the parameters of our "mode of operations" for reading the values of Time Space and Energy. As published in the Mastering Kung Fu book, there are 6 components:

1. Centerline Theory
2. Two Line Defense
3. Three Reference Points
4. Four Gate Heaven Human Earth
5. Five Line Theory
6. Six Gate Tien Yan Dei

Each of these components contain additional sub/supporting concepts and theories which in my view are essential for having intrinsic knowledge of the science and a sharp ability for reading the values of Time Space and Energy.

[Wayfaring]

I have heard this mentioned before in HFY but what does it translate as? 10 Bright Points? Or something similar? And the HFY Formula?

Obviously I don't expect an in depth answer here, just a simple overview would be good for me to get to grips with.


These are taught at SNT level in conjunction with "box theory" - aka "inside the box" and "outside the box". The idea being that at the first level you learning to control your own space and structure. Points are aligned so you are not collapsed in on yourself in engagements and you have structure and alignment. These are applied to the SNT form as well as 2 man drills to ingrain the body responses correctly. Just my added .02 perception.

[Savi]

Well stated!

[kentchang]

More on Hung Gun Biu from a recent HFY article that is going to appear in the latest issue of Kung Fu Magazine:

http://hfy108.com/forums/showthread....0906#post20906

Thumbs up! Thank you for the article.

[Savi]

On behalf of Grandmaster Garrett Gee and the HFY Pai, the first official video by the World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association (http://www.hungfakwoon.com). The following footage of HFY's Advanced Siu Nim Tau form was recorded on November 11th, 2011 during the HFY Chi Sao Public Workshop held at the Hung Fa Kwoon of Tempe/Phoenix AZ. It is representative of the system approach to Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen training, reflecting the many subjects and layers of training within.

Please enjoy the video and feel free to leave any comments and/or questions.

Link: Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen 红花義詠春拳 - Advanced Siu Nim Tau Form (http://hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3241)

[Marcelo-RJ]

Savi,

Yours and Eric's direct and sincere answers were more enlightening to me and some of my Brazilian brothers than you guys will ever realize.

Now that GM Gee allowed the HFY system to be appreciated by outsiders and provided us and the next generations with a visual record of HFY WC, I really feel inspired to practice the little I know of this Art with the enthusiasm that I once experienced.

Thank you so much, brother.

[kentchang]

http://hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3241&p=20919&posted=1#post20919
Hung Fa Yi and TWC Siu Nim Tau demo

http://vimeo.com/35817461

Hello there, I was very impressed with the intensity and complexity of the HFY Siu Nim Tau I hope you guys do well with your system of WCK.

[Savi]

Thank you for taking a few minutes of your time to watch the videos and share your thoughts. We have been receiving a lot of positive feedback from the videos from other areas, and already a few hundred views in the first three days.

[Wayfaring]

Thank you for taking a few minutes of your time to watch the videos and share your thoughts. We have been receiving a lot of positive feedback from the videos from other areas, and already a few hundred views in the first three days.

The video is great - very thankful for the detail in the forms as well as the direct comparison to TWC side by side.

Much thanks to Sifu Garrett Gee for letting this be posted out.

[Eric_H]

Actually, for my 2c the video is pretty bad looking, I really wish it could have come out better. But sometimes "better" is the enemy of "good enough." At least this way people can get a glimpse of what the HFY Siu Nim Tao looks like.

Big thanks to Sifu Dale for letting us film him and just showing us the TWC form - I really hadn't seen it up until he performed it that day.

[Savi]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the video. To me it's more than enough to show people what it looks like.

[TAYLOR1]

I think people can see that HFY and TWC are different. They are both wing chun but separate systems, which is easy to see in the video.

Thanks to GM Gee to allow HFY to be shared with more people. I think this video gives more people a chance to see HFY Advanced SNT for themselves.

[JPinAZ]

Actually, for my 2c the video is pretty bad looking, I really wish it could have come out better. But sometimes "better" is the enemy of "good enough." At least this way people can get a glimpse of what the HFY Siu Nim Tao looks like.

Big thanks to Sifu Dale for letting us film him and just showing us the TWC form - I really hadn't seen it up until he performed it that day.

Yeah, I'd agree with eric, it wasn't the best clip that could have been made. But then, this video was filmed spur of the moment without a lot of thought toward the production side. It was nice having Sifu Dale from TWC present to demonstrate his SNT for everyone since most in attendance hadn't seen it. When one of the students with a camera suggested filming it next to our own SNT, GM Gee gave it the go ahead and here you have it!

There are other professional/higher production HFY specific videos currently in the works which will will be shared on HFY websites in the near future which will also be more application oriented. But this is a good example of HFY SNT form for a quick/first clip :)

[Peter-Malave]

Hi Savi! Thank you for taking time out of your family visit to come out and meet me. I am thoroughly impressed with how much knowledge is in Hung Fa Yi and thank you for taking the time to show me some things. Hung Fa Yi is very practical and to the point. As you put it, "Hung Fa Yi gets to the heart of the matter!" with no indecision and leaves your opponent with nowhere to run. With what little I could do, I got your message loud and clear about when to stick and when to hit! Thanks for being nice to me!

It is fascinating to see the whole form. You did mention it is a lot to take in, and now I can see why you only performed the first section for me! But I definitely see what you explained about HFY's Wing Chun Formula, at least in section one.

I would have insisted on meeting up again during your stay but I know you had plans with your family. Dinner will always be my treat!

I went ahead and found the new issue from Kung Fu Magazine and I really enjoy your Sifu's writings, it is quite excellent and wonderful work on the artwork! You mentioned Hung Gun Biu was a great contributor to your art. Can you share more about the Eight Battle Arrays or the old warrior training methods you mentioned?

I will keep my schedule open for your next visit, and thank you again.

[Peter-Malave]

Savi did show me a bit of Hung Fa Yi's Five Tan Sau defenses. What stood out the most was the conceptual approach to fighting. My understanding of what Savi explained is that the concepts translate into a very unique sense of awaremess for your surroundings. My awareness of my personal space is different from how Hung Fa Yi defines space, and because of that my reactions are different from how a Hung Fa Yi guy will react to stimuli. The schools I have been to in the Chicagoland area don't come anywhere near what I learned in the 3 hours spent with Savi. Kudos to the Hung Fa Yi family.

[JPinAZ]

Savi did show me a bit of Hung Fa Yi's Five Tan Sau defenses. What stood out the most was the conceptual approach to fighting. My understanding of what Savi explained is that the concepts translate into a very unique sense of awaremess for your surroundings. My awareness of my personal space is different from how Hung Fa Yi defines space, and because of that my reactions are different from how a Hung Fa Yi guy will react to stimuli. The schools I have been to in the Chicagoland area don't come anywhere near what I learned in the 3 hours spent with Savi. Kudos to the Hung Fa Yi family.

Hi Peter, thanks for sharing your input!
Where in Chicago are you? I will be there next month if you'd like to meet up! I'm also planning to meet another WC'r while I'm there, so would be cool to all get together.
Can PM me if you'd like and I'll send you my contact info.

[Peter-Malave]

I'm out in the DeKalb area. Yeah, I know not much out there. Can you or any of the Hung Fa Yi guys tell me more on my questions? I would ask on hfy108 but I forgot my password. I think it got reset when they upgraded their forum software.

[Savi]

Hey Pete it was a true pleasure to reconnect with you. Portillo's is one of my FAVORITE places to eat there, but in no way shape or form do I miss the cold weather! Haha! Next time we have to hit Gino's East Pizza (deep dish style!).

Here is an excerpt from an essay I did on HFY's Eight Battle Steps:

Throughout his years in the secret societies he taught his soldiers general combat applications (saan sau method) from what he called Hung Fa Kuen (红花拳), as in Red Flower Boxing, for purposes of practicality. Grandmaster "Hung Gun Biu" Chu Tien Jow (朱天就) drew from his expertise of Wing Chun to improve upon his men's fighting skills. He is also credited for devising HFY's fighting method for multiple attacker engagements called "Bai Jong Baat Bo Jin" (擺樁八步戰法). This strategy involves the use of five body methods and four hand techniques to which all are derived from spear fighting methods. Being skilled in the fundamentals of moving forward, backward, turning, rotating, and side stepping, with certain hand techniques, are pivotal for centerline fighting in a 360' environment.
擺 - Bai: lay, display, or state clearly
樁 - Jong: stake, pile
八 - Baat: eight
步 - Bo: step, pace
戰 - Zin: war, fighting, battle, contend
法 - Faat: Method

This part of HFY's training is typically done at the intermediate stage of development called Chum Kiu. The "old warrior" reference was in regards to our footwork. The functionality of HFY's method of raising the knee to advance on center and/or cover the lower zone, plus picking up the knee to rotate/turn the body to one edge is inherent in all of the footworks within HFY's Eight Battle Steps. This method of stepping points back to HFY's Occupy Space concept and Heaven Human Earth concept which illustrates how to travel from point A to point B safely.

I still have yet to get the latest KF Mag issue but I'll try to find it during my lunch! Thanks for the comps and I will pass it on to my Sifus!

[JPinAZ]

I'm out in the DeKalb area. Yeah, I know not much out there. Can you or any of the Hung Fa Yi guys tell me more on my questions? I would ask on hfy108 but I forgot my password. I think it got reset when they upgraded their forum software.

Hi Peter, sure, I have no problem answer questions! But first, can you share a little of your background so I have an idea of your experience? This way I have a better understanding of a common ground to start from.
How long have you been training WC, and where have you trained? I see you mentioned some schools in the chicago area, which lineages have you studied in and how did your previous training differ from what Savi showed you?

Oh hey, were you interested in meeting up when I'm up that way? I think it would be cool if we could get a group together to compare ideas and train a little since my friend Sam and I will already be meeting sometime during my visit! (sam lives just south of Chicago)

[Peter-Malave]

Thanks JPin. What is your name, if you don’t mind me asking? Are you Jonathan_AZ over on hfy108?

I don’t have any Wing Chun experience. I’ve done kickboxing in the 80’s, been in a few street fights in my “hay day”, and funny as it sounds I was an art teacher. I used to be in Joliet but after losing my house two years ago I moved out to DeKalb/Sycamore for a new job which is a bit over an hour drive under normal conditions. I haven't trained at any academy/school for a long time, but I "keep up" if you know what I mean.

There aren’t any Wing Chun schools where I live and the closest one is in West Chicago. I stopped by there but didn't care for what was offered. Savi was kind enough to answer a lot of my questions on HFY’s Center Line Theory whom I was very intrigued by Mario Bava’s posts on hfy108 years back.

What Savi showed me that is different from my prior training is well, everything. He did use a lot of the terminology at first, but he followed it up with English translations and then just spoke generally. He shared with me the backstory of Tan Sau Ng, some bits of the Hung Fa Yi formula, and different ways to step. His ability to ground himself and still move is remarkable. I mean the guy is like cat. I was impressed with his ability to focus and not get “distracted” by my hands or fakes, yet when he moved I literally had nothing. It’s hard to explain what he did but even when he wasn’t touching me I felt like I was in trouble. Kind of like staring at a tiger when you know you’re defenseless. Mind you, I’ve got about 20-30lbs on him (good eating) and I’ve been around the block if you know what I mean, but he’s a pretty solid fellow for a young guy with a lot of patience. He has a very stand up and engaging type of good old Midwestern hospitality which is becoming harder to find around here. I’m not trying to inflate his ego but the Hung Fa Yi family should be proud to have him.

I gotta see what March looks like for me and my new job. I’ll send you a pm with my number/email in the near future.

Thanks,
Pete.

[Savi]

Commentary by Sifu Tyease Deon Hampton-Brooks regarding HFY Advanced SNT Form (http://vimeo.com/35810797):

You know...I have to thank you again for the privilege for seeing the SLT and it's advance skill from the video as allowed by GM Gee. In a world of ridicule and constant judgment, even though the same people would say God could ONLY judge them, it takes much courage to have a video, edit, and place it out there for all open eyes.

As I am not HFYWCK, I have studied other systems in my lifetime; Hung Gar Kuen, Ip Man Tong Wing Chun, Phoenix Fist, and others, I can see skills that can be done if using each posture. I may never know the true essence of how you guys describe the way you keep your WCK efficient, however, I can notice the essence of true skill. Thank everyone for me. I may be defiant against many other systems; I am humble towards this one
Thank you Sifu Tyease, I have passed along your message to my Sifus.