Are you strong?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Curious as to opinions on this article:
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/are_you_strong_find_out_right_now_with_these_stren gth_standards

The chart is really interesting ( don't know how to copy it).

[Pork Chop]

According to that chart, I'm all over the place.
A lot of lifts I don't even make "decent", other lifts I could probably hit "good".
In general, I think compared to people who train, I'm probably weak to decent; compared to people who don't, I'm decent to good.

Thing is, I don't think those numbers match reality at all.

Some of those numbers are extremely high.
Yes, 1rm is not workout weight, but I wouldn't think they would be that far off if the people I've seen doing the highest weight are only putting up that weight a few times.

Everyone says they put up 200+ pounds on bench, when in reality it's a small percentage that actually puts up 2 45s and maybe 1% of the people I've seen at the gym that puts up 3 plates (315) or more.

2 plates on squat is also an uncommon sight; most of the people who do that much are only doing 1/4 squats.

The starting line for deadlift is 315 and great is 5 plates on each side? I've only ever seen a handful of people dl with any more than 2 or 3 plates.

20 pullups (no kip) was long a badge of honor in the military.

Other numbers seem low:

Standing military press of 105 is decent? That's kind of ridiculous considering that the entry level for bench is over twice that much...

Bicep curl of 80 seems kind of low. Ditto with 70lb skull crusher.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree,
I squat below parallel around 320 and DL 345 at a BW around 175 ( round off, the operative term being round, LOL).
But I can't do 20 strict pullups or 40 correct dips ( and I can dip with 110 lbes on the dip belt + my BW).

[Frost]

bench 300, squat 380, deadlift 440 and press 175, and im weak as a kitten

t-nation is not the best place for strength related articles

[JamesC]

I'm not going to read it. Mostly because i'm lazy. Also, because the only lifts I care about are the big 4.

I follow Jim Wendler's program these days. Best decision I ever made for lifting and getting big and strong.

[Dragonzbane76]

I fall mostly in the "good" description on the workouts. I haven't max in awhile, been working on more reps with medium weight. A lot of the these are like someone else stated "all over the place" I workout alone many times and to reach those levels you usually have to have a spotter or 2 present. Not that in my gym there aren't guys to spot but I kinda got outta that phase of putting up the max, and like to work on the more core strength. We have a pretty decent number of powerlifters at the gym I attend, I've seen them guys put up some ridiculous amounts but most are juicing. At my max bench I put up 345 2 years ago. Haven't really gotten back into lifting at that rate I tip my hat to those that do. Injuries from sparring have hampered many attempts at going full on these days.

I've noted that many whom put up that kind of weight tend to focus on just that and neglect cardio. I try to always throw a good bit on cardio into my routines.

[viper]

Im decent to good in most of the lifts. I dont do the last 3 on the chart. I find it odd not to include the oly lifts. It is a big leap to be a solid good or great. BTW im 63kg so depends how you look at it for the classification of weight or by bw. I went by weight.

[RickMatz]

Bawang's mom is pretty strong.

[sanjuro_ronin]

bench 300, squat 380, deadlift 440 and press 175, and im weak as a kitten

t-nation is not the best place for strength related articles

Indeed that seems to be more and more the case.

[David Jamieson]

Strong related to what?

This comes down to what are you training to do?

I live a life of moderation, so... :p

[Featherstone]

strong by some, weak by others. I have no idea what weights I can put up as I dont go to a gym. I can lift an old cast engine block and move it out of the way. I can push / pull old cars / trucks and I can throw people and pick them up for rolling and sparring, so meh on the numbers! Oh, and I can pick up my children and in their eyes I am superman! :D

[Pork Chop]

I workout alone many times and to reach those levels you usually have to have a spotter or 2 present. Not that in my gym there aren't guys to spot but I kinda got outta that phase of putting up the max, and like to work on the more core strength.

I'm kind of in the same boat.
I work out alone almost exclusively.
I also don't often train for maximal strength in the 1 to 3 rep range.
The 5 to 10 rep range seems much more the type of strength I tend to shoot for; ie strength with a little bit of endurance.
Lately, I like the way I feel better when I do more high-rep stuff.
I feel nervous to bench anything over 185 by myself; could slowly work up to more than that comfortably, but it would take a long time and it's not really what I want to work on lately.
I guess I'm okay with saying I'm "weak", because it's not really my priority right now.

[JamesC]

I'm kind of in the same boat.
I work out alone almost exclusively.
I also don't often train for maximal strength in the 1 to 3 rep range.
The 5 to 10 rep range seems much more the type of strength I tend to shoot for; ie strength with a little bit of endurance.
Lately, I like the way I feel better when I do more high-rep stuff.
I feel nervous to bench anything over 185 by myself; could slowly work up to more than that comfortably, but it would take a long time and it's not really what I want to work on lately.
I guess I'm okay with saying I'm "weak", because it's not really my priority right now.

You don't have to train with a 1 rep max in order to get stronger. Ever. Plenty of people do this all the time.

You guys really need to look into Wendler's 5/3/1. It runs a 4 week cycle, the 4th being a deload week.

Everything starts off based on 90% of your current 1 rep max. If you don't stall in the cycle, you raise upper body lifts by 5lbs and lower body by 10lbs.

First week is 3 worksets of 5 reps(1st set at 65% of current 1RM, 2nd set at 75%, 3rd at 85%), with the last set being 5 and then as many as you can do after. Then you drop the weight and do 5 sets of 10 on the same exercise.

Second week is 3 sets of 3(1st set at 70% of current 1RM, 2nd at 80%, 3rd at 90%), and again, you do at LEAST 3 on the last set, and then as many as you can after. Then, drop the weight and do 5 sets of 10.

Third week is 3 worksets. First workset is 5 reps(75% of current 1RM), second is 3(85% of current 1RM), third is 1(95% of 1RM) and then as many as you can do. Drop the weight and do 5 sets of 10.

You also stretch hard before each workout and then jump rope for a warmup. This is to keep you from turning into the large musclebound guy at the gym.

Anyways, if you use this template it allows you to raise your 1RM without ever having to actually do your 1RM, and thus, makes it a lot safer to do by yourself.

[JamesC]

Forgot to add that the focus is on the 4 big lifts. Squats, Deadlift, Bench, and Press. Each one is done once a week.

There's also a lot of assistance work in it for those that are interested in actually checking the program out.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You don't have to train with a 1 rep max in order to get stronger. Ever. Plenty of people do this all the time.

You guys really need to look into Wendler's 5/3/1. It runs a 4 week cycle, the 4th being a deload week.

Everything starts off based on 90% of your current 1 rep max. If you don't stall in the cycle, you raise upper body lifts by 5lbs and lower body by 10lbs.

First week is 3 worksets of 5 reps(1st set at 65% of current 1RM, 2nd set at 75%, 3rd at 85%), with the last set being 5 and then as many as you can do after. Then you drop the weight and do 5 sets of 10 on the same exercise.

Second week is 3 sets of 3(1st set at 70% of current 1RM, 2nd at 80%, 3rd at 90%), and again, you do at LEAST 3 on the last set, and then as many as you can after. Then, drop the weight and do 5 sets of 10.

Third week is 3 worksets. First workset is 5 reps(75% of current 1RM), second is 3(85% of current 1RM), third is 1(95% of 1RM) and then as many as you can do. Drop the weight and do 5 sets of 10.

You also stretch hard before each workout and then jump rope for a warmup. This is to keep you from turning into the large musclebound guy at the gym.

Anyways, if you use this template it allows you to raise your 1RM without ever having to actually do your 1RM, and thus, makes it a lot safer to do by yourself.

Looks like a typical powerlifiting pyramid routine except for that weird 5 sets of 10 thrown in there...

[JamesC]

That's just one of the templates available for it. For people like me who are looking to gain size. Or just like to do some high rep stuff as well.

It's a strength routine, through-and-through. He does have a powerlifting version for those that are interested. He's even got one that you can combine with Crossfit.

The principles are sound, though. It works on linear progression at a slower pace than a lot of programs, which I think is better. I've done programs that have you adding weight every single workout, but it didn't take long for it to catch up with me.

He designed this program for people who are looking to get stronger at a much slower and consistent rate and are looking to do it for years ahead.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's just one of the templates available for it. For people like me who are looking to gain size. Or just like to do some high rep stuff as well.

It's a strength routine, through-and-through. He does have a powerlifting version for those that are interested. He's even got one that you can combine with Crossfit.

The principles are sound, though. It works on linear progression at a slower pace than a lot of programs, which I think is better. I've done programs that have you adding weight every single workout, but it didn't take long for it to catch up with me.

He designed this program for people who are looking to get stronger at a much slower and consistent rate and are looking to do it for years ahead.

Sure but that 5 x 10 thing doesn't really make sense, I assume he is doing it to build the neuropathways for the lifts ( the better you g et at doing it the more you will be able to do).
I think that is the only drawback of the HIT protocols, you don't do enough to engrain the move and don't get better at doing it.

[JamesC]

How does it not make sense?

It's done for a lot of reasons, one of which is to get better at the movement, as you said.

Another is to increase size by hypertrophy. The 5-10 rep range is where you get the most size gains.

You're doing these sets at 50-60% of your rep max. You don't go heavy on them. You're working muscular endurance as well.

The point is to be more of a complete athlete. You don't have to pick between doing high rep or low rep when you can be doing both of them.

Here's the thing, though. When you're lifting heavy, you're doing a MOVEMENT. When you're lifting light, you're doing it for the MUSCLES. There's a big difference.

[sanjuro_ronin]

How does it not make sense?

It's done for a lot of reasons, one of which is to get better at the movement, as you said.

Another is to increase size by hypertrophy. The 5-10 rep range is where you get the most size gains.

You're doing these sets at 50-60% of your rep max. You don't go heavy on them. You're working muscular endurance as well.

The point is to be more of a complete athlete. You don't have to pick between doing high rep or low rep when you can be doing both of them.

Here's the thing, though. When you're lifting heavy, you're doing a MOVEMENT. When you're lifting light, you're doing it for the MUSCLES. There's a big difference.


The "sense" thing is that typically you do NOT do multiple strength protocols in the SAME session, that's all.
That is works for you great !
Like I said the 5 x 10 AFTER the "worksets" is just something that you don't normally see.

Something that we tend to forget is that virtually ANY program gives results in that "magical" phase when it is introduced ( typically that 6- 8 week timeframe).

[JamesC]

5 sets of 10 at 50% isn't a strength protocol...

And i'm well aware of the novice affect. Unfortunately, I moved past that a long time ago.

It doesn't just work for me, lol. This guy's program is used everywhere. I'm actually surprised it hasn't been brought up here before.

I'll agree with you that it's not typically something you see in a STRENGTH program, though. Low weight/ high rep burnouts have been in vogue since Arnold, as far as I know. Because they work. You do your hard sets, then you drop the weight(sometimes you do drop-sets) as your assistance exercise.

I'm sorry if it sounds like i'm trying to argue. Not meaning to come across that way. Just don't have much time left. In fact, i'll probably be back tomorrow.

[wenshu]

He's even got one that you can combine with Crossfit.


Is that some kind of parallel universe where you can get stronger and be weak as **** at the same time?

[sanjuro_ronin]

5 sets of 10 at 50% isn't a strength protocol...

And i'm well aware of the novice affect. Unfortunately, I moved past that a long time ago.

It doesn't just work for me, lol. This guy's program is used everywhere. I'm actually surprised it hasn't been brought up here before.

I'll agree with you that it's not typically something you see in a STRENGTH program, though. Low weight/ high rep burnouts have been in vogue since Arnold, as far as I know. Because they work. You do your hard sets, then you drop the weight(sometimes you do drop-sets) as your assistance exercise.

I'm sorry if it sounds like i'm trying to argue. Not meaning to come across that way. Just don't have much time left. In fact, i'll probably be back tomorrow.

Actually I just googled it and the 5/3/1 is something I have seen before and done, I just didn't do it under His name.
I understood you incorrectly.
The 5 x 10 (which is a Strength protocol, just not a one to develop max strength) is for assistance exercises and I thought that you were saying that it is done with the SAME core exercise that the 5/3/1 is done.
Just a misunderstaing on my part, sorry.

[Frost]

Is that some kind of parallel universe where you can get stronger and be weak as **** at the same time?

LAMo thank you so much for that!:)

[Frost]

Actually I just googled it and the 5/3/1 is something I have seen before and done, I just didn't do it under His name.
I understood you incorrectly.
The 5 x 10 (which is a Strength protocol, just not a one to develop max strength) is for assistance exercises and I thought that you were saying that it is done with the SAME core exercise that the 5/3/1 is done.
Just a misunderstaing on my part, sorry.

it can be done with the same core exercise, now you are even more confused i bet :o)

[sanjuro_ronin]

it can be done with the same core exercise, now you are even more confused i bet :o)

Yeah, I noticed that in another version of it.
I guess that at 50% it should be ok.

[Frost]

Yeah, I noticed that in another version of it.
I guess that at 50% it should be ok.

also got to take into account he is only doing one max effort lift a session, and thats a fairly low % of your one rep max and thats actually set off 90% of your max

its slow and steady, personally i prefer chad smiths system

[sanjuro_ronin]

also got to take into account he is only doing one max effort lift a session, and thats a fairly low % of your one rep max and thats actually set off 90% of your max

its slow and steady, personally i prefer chad smiths system

The "juggernaut" guy?

[Frost]

The "juggernaut" guy?

yep that’s the one, similar concept, working off 90% of your max, but over a longer period, sets of 10, 8 5 then 3, three weeks on each rep scheme, each week is different, first week lots of sets to get you used to the weight, so 10 weeks its 5 sets of 10, second week is higher weights fewer work sets, so 10 week it would be 2 warm up sets then 3 sets of 10 with a higher percentage, last week would be an all out max set of 10, if you get more than 10 reps with the prescribed weight you adjust your weights up according for the next round of lifting

I like it better because I seem to do ok with sets of higher reps even though I hate them, case in point after my 8 weeks set at Christmas I checked my 1 rep maxs on squat and Dl just for fun, squat I hit a very easy 165kg (my best ever is 170) could have got more but wanted to check DL, I pulled 190kg sumo, 180kg was my pervious best, so not lost any strength doing higher reps

I like the way you adjust each wave as well depending on how well you did on your max week, good self regulation and his % are spot on atleast for me

[JamesC]

Is that some kind of parallel universe where you can get stronger and be weak as **** at the same time?

I almost spit milk through my nose when I read that, lol.

We all know that Crossfit makes chicks really hot and guys really small and weak.

I don't know how his program and Crossfit work together, I just caught a glimpse of it in his book. As soon as I saw Crossfit I skipped it.

My guess is that it's either A) Something he's using to appeal to more people for money(can't say I blame the guy for that based on what happened with his first edition of the book), or B) He's trying to convert Crossfit guys to a more sensible program...

I'm hopeful for choice B.

Frost, thanks for that. I hadn't heard of Chad Smith's program. I always enjoy long, slow progression systems that are good for planning years out.

[Frost]

I almost spit milk through my nose when I read that, lol.

We all know that Crossfit makes chicks really hot and guys really small and weak.

I don't know how his program and Crossfit work together, I just caught a glimpse of it in his book. As soon as I saw Crossfit I skipped it.

My guess is that it's either A) Something he's using to appeal to more people for money(can't say I blame the guy for that based on what happened with his first edition of the book), or B) He's trying to convert Crossfit guys to a more sensible program...

I'm hopeful for choice B.

Frost, thanks for that. I hadn't heard of Chad Smith's program. I always enjoy long, slow progression systems that are good for planning years out.

no problem ,hard to arque with a guy who squats raw 905

[sanjuro_ronin]

I never understood that crossfit stuff but I guess it is good for staving off boredom.
On a side note:
I was going over old log books yesterday after working out and I noticed something that I had forgotten.
Some of the best gains I had was doing a modified HIT regime.
2-3 sets of pyramiding as warm ups, 1 working set to failure, drop weight by 10% and another set to failure.
( not failure on Squats and DL's of course, for obvious reasons).
I was squatting 385 for 5 reps.
DL's 405 for 5 reps
Dips with 120lbs for 5 reps
At a BW of 172lbs.

[wenshu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BDDyxXyf6UU

[wenshu]

We all know that Crossfit makes chicks really hot and guys really small and weak.


I don't know that @fit makes any women hot who weren't already. I think the more accurate axiom is "Turns men into women and women into men".

Brings up a good point about @fit vs. real training. The subtext I'm reading in this thread is that once initial strength, conditioning or hypertrophy gains plateau, find the individualized progression and periodization that addresses specific weaknesses in order to progress further.

That's the exact opposite of Crossfit.

[JamesC]

I don't know that @fit makes any women hot who weren't already. I think the more accurate axiom is "Turns men into women and women into men".

Brings up a good point about @fit vs. real training. The subtext I'm reading in this thread is that once initial strength, conditioning or hypertrophy gains plateau, find the individualized progression and periodization that addresses specific weaknesses in order to progress further.

That's the exact opposite of Crossfit.

Well said. On all accounts.

[JamesC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BDDyxXyf6UU

Seriously, what the ****

[IronFist]

Right now? No. I've been out of the gym for 4 months with injuries :(

Here are my records for the exercises I know them for:

Deadlift: 2x bw (1 rep) conventional stance
Bench: 1.6x bw (1 rep) full range
Squat: 1.9x bw (1 rep) competition depth

Pullups for reps: bw x 18 reps full range of motion (got a vid of this)
Pullups for weight: bw + 105lbs on a belt x 2 reps full range of motion

One arm pullups: bw x 1 on each arm full range of motion, non working arm behind back


Sadly on the internet, you have to specify things like "full range pullups" and "competition depth" squats because most people go down half way and think it counts.

[IronFist]

bench 300, squat 380, deadlift 440 and press 175, and im weak as a kitten


How much do you weigh?