the trace of SLT evolution

[Hendrik]

Can we know the evolution of Siu Lin Tau the set?

Yes, by observing the snake and crane section of the Siu Lin Tau across lineages we can see a trace.



first,
Take a look at the snake reel section of these lineages. from YKS to Ku Lo to Chan wah shun to Snake Crane , which is the older WCK lineages of the pre 1900.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDpx5juWHX0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6Ap3Hgfbqs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmXWjKPYIts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj5OElGZCgU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IEej1FpJwo

They all shows a snake reel section which is core in the sup jee sau type .( the section before the so called Sam Bai fut 0r Crane section.)

Ku Lo is doing the crane before snake, but both snake and crane are there. the sup jee sau is there. the five fingers trace taiji circle is there.





Now take a look at the snake reel section before the sam bai fut section of the Yip Man lineage including the TWC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7M_W35NyYQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6UUxA_aA4U&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUr10LZAzh0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crmGYEvLVcw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJZ9dXiLM7s


So, from the above one sees GM Yip Man's signature in evolution.

the snake reel section of Yip Man lineage is evolved from the Chan Wah, YKS, Ku Lo type of Sup Jee Sau based snake reel to a single huen sau.






From the above we know, the Huen sau type is a post 1900 Yip Man evolution and
as for the 1800 or pre 1900 version of WCK there always a sup jee sau type of core.

Thus, if one freeze time today and take a look at one's SLT, one can use this snake reel section to see how old is type of SLT. To the minimum the pre or post 1900.

if this snake section is lost totally, then the slt is not complete. as we know, even in Ko Lu which is not practicing set. Leung Jan still keep the snake reel and crane withstand as evident in GM Fung's clip.

[Wayfaring]

</unsubscribe>

[Hendrik]

Add this pao fa lien siu Lin tau to the collection. see for yourself the snake reel and Crane withstand section. And the snake reel signature in pao fa Lin slt.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8ErY0gfLgY

[Grumblegeezer]

The series of hand movements, sometimes referred to as "wagging fingers" that is omitted from the opening sequence of Siu Nim Tau in Yip Man Wing Chun is not missing from the system, it is just held back until Biu Tze:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NW1_Bmbmkg

Also, it is worth noting that these movements were included in the Siu Nim Tau as taught by Grandmaster Yip in his earlier years in Fatshan, and are still included in SNT by his surviving students there such as Lun Kai. It is well known that during his later Hong Kong period, Grandmaster Yip trimmed some sequences from the forms. Whether this was a positive contribution or not, I'll leave for others to debate. I'll only note that more is not always better. Wing Chun is exceptional largely because of it's efficiency and simplicity both in form and application.

[Hendrik]

The series of hand movements, sometimes referred to as "wagging fingers" that is omitted from the opening sequence of Siu Nim Tau in Yip Man Wing Chun is not missing from the system, it is just held back until Biu Tze:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NW1_Bmbmkg

Also, it is worth noting that these movements were included in the Siu Nim Tau as taught by Grandmaster Yip in his earlier years in Fatshan, and are still included in SNT by his surviving students there such as Lun Kai.

It is well known that during his later Hong Kong period, Grandmaster Yip trimmed some sequences from the forms. Whether this was a positive contribution or not, I'll leave for others to debate.

I'll only note that more is not always better. Wing Chun is exceptional largely because of it's efficiency and simplicity both in form and application.


We respect different evolution or personal editing of different lineage so there is nothing wrong with it.

We know from the above the different signatures and time stamp.

We like it or not, we know today the WCK time stamp pre 1900 core in the snake reel crane withstand. We know different lineages signatures.

[Hendrik]

The following are two excellent clips by sifu Sergio on Weng Chun .

Saam bai fat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rWua9JLHPk

Sup Yat Sao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zghvcIZOZQM


For me, using the snake reel crane withstand as reference, these two sets above are crane withstand core sets. And doing the crane withstand in a white crane fujian way.
So, these are not the same type of art with wing Chun.

Also, this is matching to the red boat era history where different arts co exist in the red boat, and lee man mau is doing white crane of fujian.

[Hendrik]

a lineage of Cho family SLT set

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLCTuRE4zC0


another lieage of Cho family SLT set

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRbpfs31N20

[ccwayne]

Can we know the evolution of Siu Lin Tau the set?

Yes, by observing the snake and crane section of the Siu Lin Tau across lineages we can see a trace.



first,
Take a look at the snake reel section of these lineages. from YKS to Ku Lo to Chan wah shun to Snake Crane , which is the older WCK lineages of the pre 1900.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDpx5juWHX0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6Ap3Hgfbqs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmXWjKPYIts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj5OElGZCgU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IEej1FpJwo

They all shows a snake reel section which is core in the sup jee sau type .( the section before the so called Sam Bai fut 0r Crane section.)

Ku Lo is doing the crane before snake, but both snake and crane are there. the sup jee sau is there. the five fingers trace taiji circle is there.





Now take a look at the snake reel section before the sam bai fut section of the Yip Man lineage including the TWC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7M_W35NyYQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6UUxA_aA4U&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUr10LZAzh0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crmGYEvLVcw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJZ9dXiLM7s


So, from the above one sees GM Yip Man's signature in evolution.

the snake reel section of Yip Man lineage is evolved from the Chan Wah, YKS, Ku Lo type of Sup Jee Sau based snake reel to a single huen sau.






From the above we know, the Huen sau type is a post 1900 Yip Man evolution and
as for the 1800 or pre 1900 version of WCK there always a sup jee sau type of core.

Thus, if one freeze time today and take a look at one's SLT, one can use this snake reel section to see how old is type of SLT. To the minimum the pre or post 1900.

if this snake section is lost totally, then the slt is not complete. as we know, even in Ko Lu which is not practicing set. Leung Jan still keep the snake reel and crane withstand as evident in GM Fung's clip.

Snake Crane Wing Chun has a 'Lim Tau Song', a poem , and the first five statements describ the whole set of SCWC SLT form playing, and the last statement tells why to develop SCWC


念頭歌
白鶴戲水蛇歸洞 飛麟九轉表掌通 蛇鶴爭揮堵勁融
鶴足三提翼四功 白鶴摺翼登天際 蛇鶴能制逆宗童

Beginning parts in all SCWC forms（樁頭）: 白鶴戲水蛇歸洞 飛麟九轉表掌通

起式====雙手提起作白鶴喝水隨作毒蛇轉首跟五指扣拿作鶴足拿物隨即貼逼出抽歸脥隨將膝微屈立展拑 羊馬(含胸拔背收肚 攤腰) 隨即作雙蛇下洞再作絞手收拳隨將左拳打出由拳變掌作毒蛇九轉(右與左同) 以上皆為拳之起式

The above description（樁頭） in Chinese is the part of the description of the SLT in SCWC Law Tiu Wen written notes recorded in Guangxu sixteen years(1890). It is not today Chinese written style, and it clearly indicates the imitations of the Snake movement and the crane movements in the SCWC SLT.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=140907212685746

You can also watch the video above and enjoy the first two statements described in the Lim Tau Song(poem) in the video. The rest of the other three statements describ more about the crane motions, and I cannot disclose here any more. Just to let you know Snake and Crane movement built in SLT before 1900.

[Hendrik]

Wayne,

Thanks 1000 and appreciate you disclose your lineage's treasure.

This is very valuable for those who did serious WCK research. We now have solid data points from different direction to study WCK 1850.


As we can see , the classical Chinese is very specific with depth. And wck1850 is not an art for illiterate people as some like to believe. The people who lead the 1850 uprising are elite group of people who challenge the emperor officials and defeat them. They are not just some no body.

[CFT]

The 'Nim Tau Song' is composed in the classical style, but I don't see that the description of the forms opening (jong tau) is in classical Chinese. Seems pretty contempory to me.

[Hendrik]

The 'Nim Tau Song' is composed in the classical style, but I don't see that the description of the forms opening (jong tau) is in classical Chinese. Seems pretty contempory to me.

Side topic.

If I am correct, Wayne's ancestor of Lo family is a 貢生。my ancetors , the Cho family is a 武擧family for generation.

[ccwayne]

Side topic.

If I am correct, Wayne's ancestor of Lo family is a 貢生。my ancetors , the Cho family is a 武擧family for generation.

I think so, and maybe there is a '武狀元' in different lineages in different areas. After the fire of Southern Shaolin, the monks escaped to different areas of China. After the collapse of the TaiPingHeavenly Kingdom and the fire of '瓊花會館', the members of the RedBoat Opera hid and escaped to the different parts of South East Asia, of course including China. Yip Kam and BandChong Wing Chun（正旦金） are the typical ones. Fung Siu Ching, aged 70, returned to China from 南洋, after the collapse of Qing Dynasty, to teach Yuen Kay San(YKS). YOu can see there should be a lot of small lineages of WC scattered in the different areas in the South East Asia. Modern Thai boxing, you see their puching, kicking and elbow techniques, have you related them to WC punching, kicking and elbow techniques.

Different people learning the same skill may have different interpretation, understanding and performing because they are not the same person. That's why I understand why there are some many tributaries in WC big family, just like the article I wrote in Chinese 'The evolution of the Wing Chun in the last sixties' in 'New Martial Hero' magazine.

I know 古財華 BandChong Wing Chun in the video above. He knows us very well, and 正旦金 may be the accent in their place. What I predict 正旦金 is 正旦錦. 正引花旦-->正旦 錦-->金

申錦（大花面錦）is a 武生，so 正旦金 is not 大花面錦 ， we are from different persons, and different lineages formed.

[Hendrik]

Wayne,

Thanks for your view.

[FongSung]

I know 古財華 BandChong Wing Chun in the video above. He knows us very well, and 正旦金 may be the accent in their place. What I predict 正旦金 is 正旦錦. 正引花旦-->正旦 錦-->金

申錦（大花面錦）is a 武生，so 正旦金 is not 大花面錦 ， we are from different persons, and different lineages formed.

Hi ccwayne some "speculate" that 正旦金 & 大花面錦 are one and the same as he changed roles when he got older. As there wasmore than one red (Opera) boat they could still be different people.

Ku Choi Wah (古財華) Sifu mentioned your group to me a few time over the last couple of years. Actually he was in HK earlier this month and is currently celebrating CNY and paying his respects to the ancestors in Nga Wu, Poon Yee with the Cho Family.
Unfortunately I could not make it this year.

[ccwayne]

Hi ccwayne some "speculate" that 正旦金 & 大花面錦 are one and the same as he changed roles when he got older. As there wasmore than one red (Opera) boat they could still be different people.

Ku Choi Wah (古財華) Sifu mentioned your group to me a few time over the last couple of years. Actually he was in HK earlier this month and is currently celebrating CNY and paying his respects to the ancestors in Nga Wu, Poon Yee with the Cho Family.
Unfortunately I could not make it this year.

I am not going to speculate whether 正旦金 & 大花面錦 the same person or not. Also, 花旦 is 花旦, and not easy to change the role to 大花面. There should be more than one 花旦and more than one 大花面 in the RedBoat. Also, there should be more RedBoat members they know the WC skills. After the collapse of Tai Ping Heavenly Kingdom, they escaped from persecution to different areas in the South East Asia. In the place where they stay, they might teach the people there and to carry forward the skills there. After a certain period, a lineage is formed.

Going back to the fire of Southern Shaolin, the monks escaped and scatterd in the Southern, Western and Northern parts of the China. Some lineages are formed where the monks stayed. The second carrying forward of the WC is from the RedBoad, the places they escaped from persecution extended to the South East Asia. WC becomes a very very big family.

I need to thank Sifu Ku to mention the Snake Crane Wing Chun to you in the last few years. The last time I met him, just seated beside me, in the dinner organised by 'New Martial Hero'(Italy) one year ago.

[Hendrik]

Wayne,

Decade ago the authors of the famous book the complete wing Chun, Rene Ritchie, Robert Chu, and me had looked into the dai fa min kam and cheng Dan kam or yik kam case.

The conclusion is they are not likely to be the same person. You are correct, a fa Dan who develop a life time on how to act like a female in body movement and voice , is not very likely to be able to switch to become a fa min. It is like A life time of wing Chun kuen kung development cannot switch to become Choy lee fut expert. The body has been evolved in a different way from the Kung.

Another data point is, take a look at the closing salutation of yik kam slt, the bong elbow sword finger present to the hero. If it is the same person the salutation has to be the same . because salutation is for a life time.

We know, there are lots of people at that time from history.


　　1853 年，太平军攻克南京后,洪秀全接纳部将罗大纲保举,派密使到广东寻找反清群众组织领导人，策划武装力量，以 期南北配合，推翻清廷。先在佛山大基尾琼花会馆找到李文茂,再联络得广东天地会领袖陈开、陈金刚等人，密谋 起义。 1854 年 7 月,他们在佛山石湾大帽岗上竖起义旗,以陈开为大元帅，李文茂为副帅，邝能（和尚能）为军师，陶工冯滚、封 满等为将军,一举攻下佛山镇。陈开自称 “ 大宁王 ” 。
　　时适戏班反抗戏捐，殴打税吏,红船子弟和城市贫民都趋之若鹜。李文茂便以戏班中的健儿为骨干编建三军， 曰 “ 文虎军 ” 、 “ 猛虎军 ” 、 “ 飞虎军 ” 。他自穿戏班中的蟒袍甲胄，其余将官均按品位穿着明朝戏服。女官由女花旦充任，戴七星额，穿女蟒袍。后因义 军人数激增,戏服不足，便一律以红巾扎头代替冠盔，故称红巾军。他们利用戏班中的翻筋斗超跃、腾跳等武打功 夫,飞登城楼，攻击敌阵，使守城清兵惊慌失措，弃城而逃。文茂起义伊始，仅数千人,很快就拥有数万之众。而 且 “ 旬日间,连下数十州县 ” 声威大振。连清廷统治阶级也不得不承认他们 “ 战功懋著，有似吞舟之鲸 ” 。




In addition,
I heard from my late sifu Cho Hong Choy, on Yik kam When I was taught the slt kuen kuit. I have discussed with my sifu about the history of yik kam and cho family WCK around 1977 prior to Come to the USA . Have witness My sigung cho on went to my sifu home teaching my two sihengs the core of yik kam wck when they joint the Lui toi match.


My sifu told me, yik kam is feminine role. I ask my sifu about ancestor yik kam , cho soon, cho dak shing, cho family history, and who he has met, since he has been in poon yee china study with Gm cho chuen. sifu told me with the older generation passed away in china, at that time, elderly Gm Saam Chan , the sifu of the present Gm Cheong wei poh in penang malaysia, who live in IPoh Malaysia knows the history the best. My sifu also told me there are three family names which is allied with the cho family if I meet them they are brothers in WCK. One of them are Yuan. Like Yuan Kay San. If my memory is correct, I was 17 at that time, and sifu told me Yuan like Yuan ling yue the famous movie actress.

My sifu has learn a few sets which is no longer practice in china from Gm Saam Chan himself. One of the set is the trident set or dai pa set. Thirty years has past. I am thinking of releasing the letters my sifu wrote me so that the young generation knows what and how things are discussed.

[ccwayne]

Wayne,

Decade ago the authors of the famous book the complete wing Chun, Rene Ritchie, Robert Chu, and me had looked into the dai fa min kam and cheng Dan kam or yik kam case.

The conclusion is they are not likely to be the same person. You are correct, a fa Dan who develop a life time on how to act like a female in body movement and voice , is not very likely to be able to switch to become a fa min. It is like A life time of wing Chun kuen kung development cannot switch to become Choy lee fut expert.

If a 20 years Hung Kuen practitioner or a 15 years Choy Lee Fut expert getting the Wing Chun skill and mix them together. How do you think the mixtures? Just like 永春, do you think they are 詠春?

As SCWC re-open to public, two years ago, I was changelled by a 永春 sifu. He claimed his 永春 is coming from the Wing Chun House (永春殿) and that's why called 永春. He claimed that we are not from 永春殿, and was created to cheat people. As I showed the photos of Law Tiu Wen old picture showing that he is the 3rd generation of Snake Crane Wing Chun and his written notes in 1890, he had nothing to say. When I see their ToaLu套路, I found they are similar to the HungKuen but with some Wing Chun taste.

[Hendrik]

If a 20 years Hung Kuen practitioner or a 15 years Choy Lee Fut expert getting the Wing Chun skill and mix them together. How do you think the mixtures? Just like 永春, do you think they are 詠春?

As SCWC re-open to public, two years ago, I was changelled by a 永春 sifu. He claimed his 永春 is coming from the Wing Chun House (永春殿) and that's why called 永春. He claimed that we are not from 永春殿, and was created to cheat people. As I showed the photos of Law Tiu Wen old picture showing that he is the 3rd generation of Snake Crane Wing Chun and his written notes in 1890, he had nothing to say. When I see their ToaLu套路, I found they are similar to the HungKuen but with some Wing Chun taste.



1. In my opinion , For your case on Hung gar it will look like my siheng.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XvSnKa3kv0
My sifu used to tell me the hung gar iron wire and slt way of Jin are different things.


2. My view on weng Chun is, a red boat art co exist with wing Chun, an art core in white crane of fujian, CLF, and old hung kuen. I don't believe in the story of weng Chun dien relationship with wing Chun because evidentially the kuen kuit of yik kam slt in the red boat is core in white crane fujian and emei 12 zhuang. Which is a different type of kung fu. One needs to be able to explain where the sources of Kung fu is from to make solid prove.

[Hendrik]

3. I also don't believe in the shaolin top chan or zen monk create wing Chun to fight against Qing story. Why? I have proof it with my own life.

I was given the slt kuen kuit at 17 years old. I heard all the shaolin story. Because I want to decode the kuen kuit and know what is the chan monk has. I become the grand student of the well known shaolin Lin martial monk sek kou Sam and the student of chan patriarch ven. Hsuan hua. I study buddhism seriously.

And it ends up I no longer can fight. Because same as any real buddhist monk. We will help even an ant to survive. How could a true buddhist chan monk intentionally provoke hurt a human or place hate and anger in our heart? That is suicide entering demon state 破戒魔境.


The advance art exist in buddhism, similar to in the emei 12 zhuang which which is an advance buddhist art has nine level of samadhi 九次第定。those are all spiritual penetration or siddhi 神通 but it never used for provoke killing or personal gain. that violate the law of the Buddha.


All these training of internal advance art is based on the condense the Shen, 凝神 as the kuen kuit of slt said 集意會神平肩襠 union with the Shen. So, I keep refer to the emei 12 zhuang because the key to really enter into the slt advance srage is well describe in the emei 12 zhuang.

What i have found out is, The relationship between the slt and emei 12 zhuang is analogy to 林家劍法 and 睽花寶典in 笑傲江湖。take a look since yik kam for 150 years , no sign of descendent has surpass or attain equal with yik kam kung fu and infact evolve into a hard shaolin direction , why? because what yik kam has is the 睽花寶典。林家劍法 is just a frame. The soul is not. The real Kung fu is not there.the set has evolve to the point of name only 但有名言無實性。

I found these and so it is up to the others to take it or leave it. I leave this trace for the future researcher, That is my thirty years of life.

[FongSung]

Wayne,

One of the set is the trident set or dai pa set. Thirty years has past. I am thinking of releasing the letters my sifu wrote me so that the young generation knows what and how things are discussed.

Obviously you havent been to the Cho Family Village before, my friend, the Dai Pa is alive and well there still. I have been asked to learn it as well as the Kwan Dao due to my size but I prefer to focus on the pole.

[Hendrik]

Obviously you havent been to the Cho Family Village before, my friend, the Dai Pa is alive and well there still. I have been asked to learn it as well as the Kwan Dao due to my size but I prefer to focus on the pole.


Good for you. You have a good point.

I don't know it all. In fact, there are lots of things I don't know.


Have you seen the set my sifu learn from Gm Saam Chan after he went back to china studying from Gm Cho Chuen in 1950s? Do you know which set is that ?